BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 02:36 PM

Step five successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 02:05 PM

House of Lords have blocked a no deal Brexit

Not yet! Only ministers of the crown can propose legislation with a fiscal component.
Royal assent as opposed to Royal consent, is required for any bill to become law.
As far as I am aware this has not yet been signed into law and the government can kick it's heels for up to a month before submitting it for her Majesty's approval ( Assuming they may want to, of course. This also assumes the bill is legal, The wording is absolutely crucial)

The great game continues!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 01:08 PM

House of Lords have blocked a no deal Brexit
Wonder if Johnson will try to pension them all off
Hasn't it been a fabulous week ?
Johnson say's he's not resigning - a clear indication that it's on the cards
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 12:30 PM

thanks, mod.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 12:14 PM

Rain Dog:

"Ideally we would have to know the terms of our leaving and I cannot see that happening anytime soon."

I know politicians prefer an ignorant and malleable electorate but why not hold out for a clear cut explanation of the exit terms so the public can make an informed decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 11:31 AM

The rebel bill may have passed in the Commons and Lords, However:
It has stopped no deal therefore an extension is almost certain. That means more payment must be made to the EU.
Only ministers can propose a bill with a fiscal component. I suspect Royal assent will not be forthcoming. As a result the bill is stranded and of no consequence.

Tickety tock!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 11:10 AM

"I get that you did not like the result but if you are saying that information was withheld before the referendum, I cannot agree with that."
It has become clear that no information was provided on what might happen before the referendum took place, but from the beginning the business community was warning that leaving Europe would destabilise the economy and would take up to twenty years to put right
While that information appeared in the specialist press, it was never made clear in the popular media and was certainly never discussed publicly
A prediction as important as this should heve been put clearly to the people from day one - it's accuracy became apparent when compainies immediately began to move out of Britain - Westland was among the first - it changed its name and suddenly became a European company'
Even leading Brexiteers like Rees Mogg and Dyson, put their money elsewhere - the latter had financed Brexit to the tune of £5 million

Brexit was slammed all round for having no plan beyond 'leaving' and 'controlling immigration' - that was a major cause for concern, even in the Tory Press - Britain decided to leave Europe the way a sulky teenager would leave home after a row with the parents

It transpires that (according to Gove) the 'Yaellowhammer Report was put together in the ealy days and the findings were so horrifying that they were locked away and only leaked a fw weeks ago - the Government were more concerned at them being made public that they were at the findings themselves.

This stupidly self-damaging decision was won largely on Farage's obscenely racist 'Foreign Hordes' poster and the historical racism towards Europeans - proven beyong any douby by a spike of 42% in racist incidents - even o the morning after the referendum, 'foreign-looking' people were being stopped in the street and asked when they were going back to where they came from.

The oly way to extract the British people would have been to ask them to confirm their decision now the likely outcome had become clearer - a bit late for that now - Britain's reputation internationally is shot forever and its future out of Europe lies solely on being able to crawl into the pocket of the moronic degenerate in The White House
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 10:48 AM

Picked up from a FB thread yesterday...

”Listening to Brexiteers now is horribly like listening to my late mother when she was almost convinced she'd been scammed by a cowboy roofer but couldn't bring herself to admit it. She said 'I may have been overcharged but it's my money. I can do what I like with my money. Anyway, I like the result. I don't care.' She said 'I'm doing it for you and the children because it will increase the value of the house when I die'. She didn't admit to herself that she'd been scammed until it was too late to cancel the cheque. Now I'm hearing 'We voted to leave, just get on with it'. ' I don't care about the arguments, I just want us to leave and move on. We've chosen and that's that. No ifs or buts.' The scammers will pick up their money and run unless the scam victims recognise in time that they have been tricked. There's no shame in admitting that you've been conned by highly-skilled experts.”

Sounds pretty much on the button to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 10:46 AM

It is pleasing to see the opposition doing what an opposition should do and preventing a government hell bent on doing the country a huge disservice. One that would have dire consequences for the coming years and especially the youth who are as yet not allowed a vote.



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/06/opposition-parties-agree-block-snap-election-until-brexit-delay-secured

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 10:30 AM

Jim Carroll posted "The difference between a decision made by using hate, prejudice, no planning for the future and deliberately withholding information"

I get that you did not like the result but if you are saying that information was withheld before the referendum, I cannot agree with that.

The fact is that the so called debate before the vote was pretty useless all around. Someone on the radio the other week said that whenever he heard one side of the so called debate, it made him want to vote for the other.

As you are no doubt aware, there has always been a sizeable number of people who were opposed to us joining and then staying in. That has not really changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 10:20 AM

You are pissing in the wind here RD
The difference between a decision made by using hate, prejudice, no planning for the future and deliberately withholding information as opposed to real democracy will nebver be understood in a million years by people like this
It's worth repeating that Nazi Germany came into being via an elected majority - there are at least six million reasons why that particular exercise in 'democracy' should never be repeated
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 10:09 AM

The mythical will is the only will that counts. We won,you lost. Live with it!

Out of a 46 million electorate only 33.5 million could be bothered to vote. More than half of that number voted out.

No amount of hogwash mathermagic can alter the fact that leave won, and in a democracy that means leave.

If we do not leave, parliament no longer has legitimacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 09:58 AM

In response to gillymor's post - I think that the vast majority of those who wanted to leave just wanted to leave. The details of the leaving did not bother them too much.

As for being better informed well that is not so straightforward is it? Ideally we would have to know the terms of our leaving and I cannot see that happening anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 09:52 AM

'the will of the people' 'the majority....' 'we voted to leave...' 'just get us out' are monotonous and valid enough in a way. however, when did this become a call for us to leave as soon as possible with the hardest possible brexit? leavers seem in complete denial about the fact that there are many more ways than one to leave. do you really want to go for the most dangerous one ? the most expensive one? do you really want to sour the atmosphere so that all the trade negotiations yet to come will be dragged out and uneccessarily combative?

where is our so-called common sense, compromise and diplomatic intelligence?

you won't be better off you know.....though bannon, cummings, putin and the 1% will be happy. trump and johnson , of course, will just be confused and incoherent as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 09:45 AM

To me the relevant question is how many of those who voted leave thought they were voting for a no-deal Brexit and was anyone aware at the time what it would entail. With all the controversy, and hopefully a better informed electorate, another referendum seems like the fairest way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 08:08 AM

Opposition groups have met and have come to an agreement that they will oppose an election until a no-deal Brexit is guaranteed - Borish is well and truly shafted
He says that he will not resign but will push on to guarantee that Britain leaves at the end of October - he would say that, wouldn't he !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 07:18 AM

In passing
Any comfort anybody wished to take from the failure to get the proroguing of parliament made illegal needs to be taken alongside the fact that any outcome will be rendered totally immaterial as, by the time the appeal will be heard, any outcome will have been renedred totally irrelevant - the attempts to prevent parliament to outlaw a Hard Brexit will have been decided - which was the sole purpose of the exercise
The act of attempting to silence Parliament, coupled with the expelling of 21 long standing and dedicated members of the Tory Party probably did more to bring about Johnson's string of historically humiliating defeats than did any other aspect of this sorry saga, alongside which it has all but destroyed the Conservative Party forever as a seriously regarded and responsible political entity - talk about shooting yourself in both feet.
Two for the price of one as far as I'm concerned - long may we be awarded such "red faces"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:54 AM

The best way to test the ‘Will of the People’ question would be to have a second Referendum which, unlike the first, is set up properly with the right questions - i.e. ‘Leave but only with a deal’, ‘Leave with no deal’, or ‘Remain’.

But, of course, that’s not what Dom & Dumber want, because there’s a strong chance they would lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:45 AM

Dave the Gnome posted "In fact crashing out of the EU has been proven to be against the will of most people so Jim's statement about BoJo the clown and his circus being at war with the people is perfectly valid."

I would not be so sure about that Dave. From my own personal experience I have not spoken to any leavers who have changed their minds.

I have to say that I am a bit fed up with all of the "will of the people" comments made by people from all sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:43 AM

"A touch of plagiarism there Jim, I read that in the Guardian yesterday."
Irish - Guardian reader; great minds thinking alike, I would have thought
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:38 AM

Here’s damn good reason for Labour, the SNP, the Lib-Dems, and the Greens to stick together to fight Dom & Dumber’s election scam. Can there have ever been, even by Tory standards, a more disgusting, deceitful bunch of snakes in government?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:27 AM

Rain Dog, that has been pointed out over and over again. The referendum did have a small majority win but it is far from the "will of the people" lie that is being perpetrated. In fact crashing out of the EU has been proven to be against the will of most people so Jim's statement about BoJo the clown and his circus being at war with the people is perfectly valid. However, if you had not already realised, there is no point in discussing this with some people. They want their own way and the rest of the people can go to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:25 AM

A touch of plagiarism there Jim, I read that in the Guardian yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:18 AM

Perfect that one, Jim! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:03 AM

I've come to love the Irish skill at one-line humour
A letter writer to this morning's Irish Times writes:
"Sir.
Is Jo Johnson the first politician ever to have left politics to spend less time with his family"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 05:09 AM

That first line was to Jim (and maybe Rain Dog...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 05:07 AM

Fine. Then we're stuck with him forever. :-(

The new legislation allows Johnson to get brexit if he can get a deal that the Commons approves. I can't see that happening but we live in strange times. But he can also get us out with no-deal if the Commons approves. I'd say that is currently impossible. But suppose he wins an October 15 election with a clear majority. In that scenario there would be a greatly increased risk of his getting Parliament to agree to no-deal. The new legislation would have been circumvented. In the campaign for that election he would make that possibility crystal clear and he would thereby mop up Brexit Party votes (they might even collude with him). That is a massive risk to this country's interests.

But if Labour refuses an October election* there are risks in that too. Apart from all the sloganising about cowardice and undermining the will of the people, etc, it would give Johnson longer to get a deal, which, if successful, would lumber the country with him for another five years. I think the risk of that is quite small but it isn't an impossibility. If he can't get a deal he would have to grovel for an extension, a total humiliation. If he sees that coming, even by now, he could resign as a tactical move. That precipitates us into a whole new ball game. It would look bad for him right now if he did that, but it would rapidly become water under the bridge. We are still in danger.

*Right in the middle of typing this I got an alert that Labour will not vote on Monday. I think that's the wisest decision. Another wise decision for the next couple of months would be for the two Labour factions, the SNP, the LibDems and the Greens to temporarily abandon their differences and present a united front in the interests of the nation. The only person who could beat Johnson in a general election is Jeremy Corbyn. That has to be the sentiment. Once Johnson is out (very likely in a hung parliament) then the squabbling can resume. We simply have to get this charlatan out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 04:45 AM

”The disastrous performance of Johnson this week can be spun as Parliament blocking the people, and no doubt will, even though totally false.”

I think we can be certain that The Dom & Dumber Show has a way to run yet - wealthy people’s tax-avoidance schemes are depending on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 03:06 AM

"but Raggytash and Jim won't bloody well cut it out!"
Steve - this feller will not go away and we have been told by a mod that they are not going going to do anything about his appalling behaviour, so we are stuck with his using this forum as a propaganda platform
If he says something revealing, as he just has by comparing the Government's refusing to pass on facts top the electorate to that of an ancient war tactician - a Government at war with its own people - I am happy to underline that truism - as far as I am concerned, it was far too good to let pass.
Iain's obliged me by adding to the value of his own statement with a mouthful of his personal abuse - a far better result than just leting him pour out his meaningless hatred of decent people and politics, as far as I am concerned
I will use every opportunity such as that when I feel it to be worthwhile

I sat through as much of Question Time as I could take last night and Iain's description of a Government at war with the British and his own party came over with blinding clarity - I am grateful to Iains and to the Brecxiteer panelists for giving such a clear picture of what's happening
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 02:48 AM

Good morning from Dublin before I set off for the next bit of this visit.

Were I Johnson, I would resign and recommend to the Queen that Corbyn tries to form a Government. That puts Corbyn in a really tricky spot. If he tries to govern as Labour, he will face a no confidence vote of his own which will force an election, perhaps even on Johnson's timescale. If he is smart enough to govern as head of a GNU, they can order a referendum... but then what? Hang around for months until it is completed? Or call an election, which if Boris wins he can use to cancel the referendum. And even if the GNU managed to stay together to issue a LEGALLY binding referendum before an election, if the Tories won the election I suspect he could have a vote to dismiss the referendum because he did not agree with the phrasing. At which point the EU, having already given an extension for the election and referendum and seen the UK reject it would not permit any more extensions and Johnson finally gets his no deal around December.

Kipling's advice is something we should bear in mind after this week "If you can meet with triumph and disaster/And treat those two imposters just the same.' The disastrous performance of Johnson this week can be spun as Parliament blocking the people, and no doubt will, even though totally false.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 06:20 PM

It's a free country, of course... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 06:19 PM

I absolutely hated myself for having to mention him just then, but Raggytash and Jim won't bloody well cut it out!

Sorry lads, but that's how I feel. My jaw drops every time Raggy and Jim respond. Might as well speak plainly here. Just remember that the whole world and his dog here on Mudcat are so pissed off with all this that the only people who read his posts are a handful of us and the odd mod. Just pretend that he's not here. Once he reads this, he will try all the harder to be provocative and stupid. Here's the best policy: Don't. Read. His. Bloody. Posts!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 06:05 PM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 06:04 PM

Better still, don't even mention him in public!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 05:45 PM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 05:41 PM

Might I suggest that we preserve a civil discussion here and utterly ignore/blank/talk past every single post of Iains'. Even those ones where he pretends that he's being "reasonable." That's part of his game, and he always reverts to type very quickly, and you know it. We've done so well in recent weeks and we can see the effect it's having on this inveterate seeker-of-attention. He's getting more and more silly, more infantile, more immature, more off-topic and more shrill, almost hysterical at times by now, the more we sideline him. A handful only of us read his posts. I for one have stopped reading them altogether. If you see his post and automatically bypass it, it can't wind you up. I appeal to all decent people to pretend that he simply isn't here. He has nothing useful to say, ever. Cut him dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 03:22 PM

one of the more depressing aspects of this situation is the increasing way that the government and their supporters use the language of war, something that is rarely mentioned is the fact that a good reason for the close integration of european states is to promote peace and co-operation between nations. how our partners must despair of the attitude of our government and their insistence on branding their supposed opponents as traitors, collaborateurs etc.....do we have no understanding of the significance of this sort of language on the continent?

of course we must compromise - that is the way that disputes are always settled because the alternative is too awful and mutually destructive.

don't worry, we see you - you arse-lickers, forelock-tuggers and grubby little fascists. you will never have anything positive to contribute but please try to stop insulting our friends, our fallen veterans and our children. first , do no harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 02:50 PM

A shame you cannot understand simple English. I have some very old copies of Janet and John Books. Shall I send them to you? When you have mastered them you may be allowed to join adult conversation. You know the old adage?
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 02:41 PM

I repeat
"The rabid right will always insist that the electorate really has no say in what is done on their behalf - "Your job is just to elct us and leave us to it - it would only confuse you if wwe had to explain what we are doing""
You have just confirmed that those who rule us and the twats who support them consider themselves at war with those they are elected to Govern
We knew that anyway - Thatcher put it perfectly when she described us as "the enemy within"
Stop telling us what we know

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 11:39 AM

For those with an inability to understand the English language, what I said was:
Politics has always relied on stealth and deception.Do you really think you should be privy to all their planning? How very arrogant.
That hardly equates to the drivelling nonsense below:
The rabid right will always insist that the electorate really has no say in what is done on their behalf - "Your job is just to elct us and leave us to it - it would only confuse you if wwe had to explain what we are doing"
Have you been to creative writing classes?

NB: “Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”

? Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 08:10 AM

Vote to be held on general election on Monday
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 03:34 AM

The rabid right will always insist that the electorate really has no say in what is done on their behalf - "Your job is just to elct us and leave us to it - it would only confuse you if wwe had to explain what we are doing"
I should have said that first time around, but there was no need - someone has just given us a perfect example of what I mean - it is "arrogant" to demand to know how are lives are being controlled from people who believe they shouldn't be challenged
A quick reminder that Gove described laws being passed by elected representatives as "a pig in a poke" only to be acted on if the great and the good see fit
What chance to the rest of us have with people like that driving this Magicacal Mystery Tour bus
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 03:19 AM

To be fair Backwoodsman if any of us where taken to hospital paralysed the doctors may well refer to our condition as critical.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 03:12 AM

Politics has always relied on stealth and deception. Look at magic gramps and his insistence on an election. He is handed it on a plate and runs away.
Do you really think you should be privy to all their planning? How very arrogant.
The stage is being set for the grand finale. You will be surprised!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 02:47 AM

"that negotiations with the EU were at a critical stage,"
This has been proved to have been an outright lie - a total invention
Two representatives of the business community approached their elected members of the EU to find out what these "negotiations" were and were tol they did not exist - either through discussion nor correspondence - they are figments of Johnson's fevered imagination
An interviewer asked a DUP Member of Parliament to explain them and he refused to respond - his silence confirmed they are a lie
There are no 'negotiations and have been none for many months
If there was any justice in the world this would earn Johnson, Rees Mogg and Gove a quick visit to The Guildhall to have their heads removed for such a scurrilous and treasonable lie.
These clowns should be tried by a jury made up the the principled people they have driven out of their party - they are political scum of the lowest order
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 02:42 AM

I think they were at a critical stage, BWM. As in critical condition and about to shuffle off this mortal coil.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 02:13 AM

Interesting that our Serial-Liar told Parliament last night that negotiations with the EU were at a critical stage, whereas BBC News this morning reported that Michel Barnier last night told a news conference that negotiations were ‘paralysed’.

I know who I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 05:15 PM

Step four successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 03:49 PM

Two statements on camera by British business representatives have proved that Boris Johnson has been lying to his party and to the people of Britain
There are no ongiong discussions about renegotiating Europe's stance on Brexit, the backstop or anything else - he has persistently lied when he claims that all these "shenanigans" are interfering ith negotiations - there are no ****** negotiations
Boris Johnson is not only a serial moron - he's a serial liar
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 03:47 PM

Y’know, it’s almost as though he’s telling lies, isn’t it?

But, but, but...surely not - he’s our Prime Minister!