BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM

"The one thing the general public is absolutely clear about is that most want he media to stop talking about Brexit all the time."
Surely the most dangerous aspect of this whole dirty business is that it was pushed though on a single issue - control of immigration
If the subject is re-voted on without open discussion on all the aspects of leaving the public will be no clearer than they are now - an extremely dangerous position to be in
It is very significant that two of the main speakers at Friday's protest demonstration were Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson and several of the demonstrators, when asked where they got their information from replied, from Robinson's website
Scum like this pair need to be taken out of this debate - both have infringed British law in spirit - one has been prosecuted for doing so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 03:00 AM

I'll put that a different way. The one thing the general public is absolutely clear about is that most want he media to stop talking about Brexit all the time. Only revocation achieves this. (OK, it may take a month or two to fall off the news but not years or decades like either deal or no-deal)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 02:53 AM

That is an interesting set of poll results. I can't find the details but looking at other polls the margin of error is around 2% for other sky polls, so the option of revoking is well within shouting distance of continuing with either a deal or no-deal. The very large unknowns makes thie actual wishes indecipherable.

. I believe it would be perfectly possible to get a huge vote in favour of revocation by preceding the survey with an accurate statement like this:

We are nearing completion of the first phase of the Brexit negotiations, the withdrawal agreement. The next phase will involve negotiating our continuing relationship with the EU and other countries. Such negotiations have typically taken seven years or more, and will be unavoidable for either deal or no-deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 02:48 AM

What has become totally clear from the latest statements by politicians is that they are putting into place a plan that if/when Britain leaves the EU, everything that will inevitably go wrong will be put squarely at the feet of the General public "We only did what you told us to do"
Of course they will take the credit if things aren't as bad as is predicted.
The constant claim that the only democratic thing is to go plunging over the cliff - "the people's choice" has become a solid part of the creation of that 'Get out of Jail Free' card'
The people will not only be the victims of this lemming-leap, but the cause of it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 06:40 PM

Results for: Do you think parliament should accept or reject the proposal that the UK revokes Article 50 and remains in the EU?
Fieldwork end date
Pollster        27 March 2019
Poll by Sky Data
Accept        37%
Reject               41%
Don't know        22%

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 06:19 PM

So it appears that Teresa May wants a forth bite of the cherry, despite her 'deal' having been suffered the largest defeat in the history of Parliament.

I am sure I am not alone in finding this more than a little incongruous when she will not allow the public even a second bite at the cherry.

Yet another example of one law for us and another for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 05:54 PM

There is a story in the Guardian that sounds like could reach a new crescendo in absurdity, naturally going back to Cameron. It seems like one of May's ideas is to call a snap election to prevent a no deal. But to do that she needs a two-thirds majority in the house and there are sufficient no-deals to make that very risky, since they would far rather stay in government with a Brexiteer at the helm. Why risk a Corbyn government ?

So her only option would be to call a no confidence vote in herself and her own government since that only requires a simple majority, not a two-thirds one. When she call it, to maximise the chances of losing (ie getting what she wants) she and her loyalists would have to declare themselves incompitent. But since the rest of the Tories would still not want to risk losing their seat she could even lose that.

And so we end up with the same PM and government even though she and many of them say they are incompetent....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 05:09 PM

The leftards response to Dominic Grieve being held to account by his constituency party as exemplified by Phil Wilson who said the vote was "ridiculous", adding: "I'm not of the same politics as Grieve but to deselect him as a Conservative candidate is to diminish politics, see an end to political integrity and deprive politics of a sincere and thoughtful practitioner."

Grieve’s arrogance was that he thought he could shift from promising his members – in writing – that he would respect the outcome of the referendum, to leading the efforts to thwart Brexit, without cost. Breaking your word to voters, particularly the ones who get out the vote for you, is risky.

or as another wit says:Dominic Grieve said in the Commons a few days ago he had never been so ashamed to be a Tory.

Last night, his local Conservative party voted that they were ashamed to have Dominic Grieve as their MP.

Should be the quickest case ever through the divorce courts if both sides are that fed up with one another !!

Douglas Carswell states it very well:

“If Dom Grieve is a brilliant MP like other MPs are claiming, he’d have no qualms about calling a snap by election and getting a mandate directly from his electorate. You’ve only got to put it like that to realise that he’s just another safe seat MP with tenure."

It begins to look as though we have an entire party(/parliament) that believes it can sit in "tenure".
If nothing else, the Brexit vote has exposed this perilous state, and it can’t be sustained.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 01:23 PM

"I know it is hard to admit that some people are not wholly driven by self-interest, but they do exist."
You can immediately spot the self interest crowd by whether or not they are likely to lose money out of the move - most of us are, those in the position to, like Dyson and Rees Mogg can push Brexit through and do a runner with teir investments - as both have

I always find it fascinating why Brexiteers refuse to respond to this fact (I refuse to believe all of them are lemmings by instinct)
Another fact being studiously ignored

The leaver's policy has now become perfectly clear - leave whatever the consequences and when the shit starts flying, blame the people for making the wrong decision


IGNORE THE FACTS AND BLAME THE PEOPLE POLICY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 04:31 AM

No, there are plenty throughout history and quite a few I have known personally.

I have told a story before in other contexts about one of my supervisors who was offered a position as general manager of a company, which was a very significant promotion. The offer included a copy of the assessment criteria so he went through it answering them not as he felt, but giving what he believed the answers they would most want, then looked at them and said to himself "Is that the sort of person I want to be?" He decided it wasn't, so turned it down without formally applying.

I find that admirable, whether or not I think he would have made an excellent general manager (which he would have, in my opinion.) I regret 'the waste' of his talent, but not his determination to be true to his own standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 04:02 AM

But only when they agree with you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 03:56 AM

Remain MP Dominic Grieve suffers no confidence vote from his local constituency party

Dominic Grieve has shown himself to be a very measured and thoughtful MP. I am 100% certain he considered that he might be deselected and acted as he did fully aware of that possibility.

I know it is hard to admit that some people are not wholly driven by self-interest, but they do exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 03:42 AM

The game is far from over. First the House has to agree on something, then they have to find a way of getting the PM to put that forward. Suppose, for the sake of argument they agree on some form of customs union. Teresa May takes that back to the EU and says that is the will of the House, and the EU grants a year's extension. May resigns and let's say Rabb becomes PM.

So we move from what Leavers claim is a Remainer trying to negotiate Leave, to a hard line ERG PM trying to negotiate a close union. I can see that working well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 03:34 AM

Remain MP Dominic Grieve suffers no confidence vote from his local constituency party.
Colleagues of the Conservative MP and former minister have branded the vote in his constituency as "disgraceful". The more sensible would see it as a payback.
I wonder how many others face de-selection on both sides of the house. Treachery brings it's own rewards!
Now the real battle begins.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 02:23 AM

"...and Jim didn't get my joke... :-("
Sorry 'bout that Steve
I was indulging in a large celebratory glug of English beer which, unfortunately, can only be got in bottles here - god - how I miss Young's Ordinary !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:02 PM

...and Jim didn't get my joke... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:00 PM

*GLUG*

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 05:58 PM

It's 11pm in three minutes. I'm indulging in a very large celebratory glug of EU wine at that instant...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 05:16 PM

Well, at least there's a bit of good news about Brexit - we didn't leave today the way the BrexShit-lemmings had hoped. With any luck, sanity will prevail and the whole lunatic escapade will be kicked into touch for good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 03:08 PM

So, a poorly understood plebiscite, a rotten decision, an amazing amount of obfuscation all round, there is no walking away from the brink?

That plank gotta be walked?

That bitter pill gotta be swallowed?

That last chord gotta be played even when the string is broke?

That last bit of programming gotta be included in the final product even though the commenting was unclear, the subroutine was written by that weird kid with the actual safety pin in his cheek, and the beta test indicated that many users were showing an inclination to take the DVD installment disk and use it a a frisbee for the dog?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 03:03 PM

"Her deal was a load of b***llo**cks, Jim. Total sh***te."
Of course it was - why should it be any different from everything connected with this catastrophe ?
As bad as it was, the alternatives are far, far worse, to Britain and to Ireland
Britain has been shedding bompanies faster than a stripper shrows her knickers into the crowd - even financial backers of Brexit are rapily moving their businesses elsewhere
One of the most persistent maritime superstitions is that of rats leaving a sinking ship
The people who are re-siting their businesses are in a win-win situation - they still profit from Britain while pouring their profits into other counties - as usual, it's us that will take the brunt of this farce - we are now - promoted to road-crash dummies
Ireland stands to have its businesses badly damaged, but most worrying, if Britain crashes out without a deal there is a serious risk that decades of negotiation to reach peace will be flushed down the pan
I have not time for any form of capitalism, but I'd rather see the world freed from it out of choice rather than necessity brought about by war and want
Despite al the EU's undeniable flaws Id rather try then that the alternative
Ther same goes fro May, by the way - would you want your daughter to bring Boris Johnson home ?
Frigged if I would
At least May recognises the dangers of crashing out "Put-Your Money-Elswhere Quickly" Moggie sees only the personal profits in leaving Europe - sod the sinking ship and all who sink in her
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 02:36 PM

"A second EU Referendum would be undemocratic", said the PM who brought her 'Deal' back to Parliament to be voted on three times, and is now threatening to bring it back for a fourth vote next week!

What was that thing the Brexshitters were saying about 're-running the vote until you get the result you want'?

Sauce, goose, gander.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 02:15 PM

Her deal was a load of b***llo**cks, Jim. Total sh***te.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 01:28 PM

May's proposals kicked into touch again
You really couldn't make this up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:58 PM

"Too many **s for that. "
Don't forget the sender is innumerate as well as illiterate

Iains
You have been a serial abuser since you joined this forum - the pathetic number of responses to your abuse are - well - pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:16 PM

Or do I mean an axle, Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:14 PM

It's not just you, Jim. Copy everything before sending.

By the way, Jim, "a**s" can't just be "arse" with the 'e' missing. Too many **s for that. Unless it's the Scottish pronunciation in which you roll your 'r's, in which case you could conceivably spell it "arrse." But it's more commonly rendered "erse" or "errse" in my experience.

Roll your 'r's? Roll your arse?? God, I'm confused...

Dave, you can even roll an axis...

And I note the the Commons has just given Theresa a well-deserved kick up the 'arris...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 09:36 AM

Bad luck around here
I' having an appalling internet posting problem at present - not sure if it's this forum or a local speed problem
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:50 AM

3 times is the charm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:23 AM

Great street scene before Parliament today of extremist Brexiteers like Lord Snooty admitting that even if they vote for any of the proposals todaythey don't agree the terms they will be supporting
Utterly insane national suicide which will only please the worst of the narrow-minded keep-'em-outers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:23 AM

Great street scene before Parliament today of extremist Brexiteers like Lord Snooty admitting that even if they vote for any of the proposals todaythey don't agree the terms they will be supporting
Utterly insane national suicide which will only please the worst of the narrow-minded keep-'em-outers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:04 AM

Well, happy Brexit Day #1...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 07:37 AM

Twitter's a gold mine for entertainment. Fave Brexit tweet so far:

Brexit is a terrible name for it. Sounds like cereal you eat when you're constipated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM

"Nice to see you BTW."
Never went far Dave - why waste a good forum with light entertainment such as this over a few bad experiences ?
You'd have to pay a great deal to get into a circus that offers clowns as entertaining as this one
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM

I think it was a general question, Jim. No-one who wants to keep their sanity interacts with him any more.

Nice to see you BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM

1300! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:10 AM

Obviously I hate Murdoch and The Sun (especially as a Liverpool fan), but if I may be allowed a moment of levity deep in this vale of tears I'd like to draw attention to today's Sun front page, which, referring to "Brexy's Midnight Runners," follows with the headline COME ON ARLENE


(Seen online, by the way. I'd rather hack off my gonads with a rusty machete than pay money for that despicable rag, but I've gotta applaud that headline writer).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM

Brexit: Police brace for disorder after far-right protesters threaten to riot at London rallies

Let's hope that is no more than nervousness and it all comes to nothing. But it will be a big contrast to the Leave march with 1,000,000 or so attendees if it does happen. Both sides are disappointed at the outcome, but their response could be very different.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM

Perhaps gnome but unlike you my reputation here is intact! Now how about a contribution to the discussion instead of your usual sniping.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 01:48 AM

It's just not worth the effort with some people, Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:12 PM

any fool can play games with statistics.

many of us on the left are totally scunnered with tony blair . however, he did pump billions into public services and working in the public sector we could all see the difference (just don't mention PPI!) the tories never stop reminding us of how much the labour party spent. but, proper jobs were there providing security for families and communities. people were able to access a welfare system largely without punitive and indiscriminate sanctions. etc etc etc.....

however, it hardly needs saying that tories will always work to dismantle the state for the benefit of their rich friends. and 'the left' should always work to support it for all our benefit. as michael foot said - something like - 'the rich have no need of government as they will always prosper' it's vital for the rest of society. it's our countries' tragedy that it is always the rich who run it and that so many of us believe the lies and continue to believe that only the toffs know how to run the show.

we need more faith and belief in ourselves. to believe in the tories and their lies is unforgivable when they are so shamelessly greedy and inept.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 02:55 PM

Any fool can play games with statistics. Political parties come and go, as do economic cycles. To take one statistic and plot it against time is simplistic in the extreme. It needs to   be studied in context and trying to play party politics by simplifying the underlying realities achieves nothing other than a loss of credibility. There have been major changes in society over the last 20 years and in government policies. There were also depressions in the early 80's, 90's and 2008/9.

Interest rates generally declined during the recession from a peak of 17.0% at the beginning of 1980 to a low of 9.6% in October 1982.
Unemployment rose from 6.9% of the working population in 1990 to 10.7% in 1993.Annual inflation was 9.5% in 1990, 5.9% in 1991, 3.7% in 1992. and 1.6% in 1993. Interest rates were stubbornly high initially but declined from a high of 14.8% at the start of the recession to a low of 5.9% by the end of the recession
Manufacturing output declined 7% by end 2008 during the late 2000s financial crisis. The unemployment rate rose to 8.3% (2.68m people) in August 2011, the highest level since 1994.

All played a part.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 01:28 PM

From the Child Poverty Action Group

Child poverty reduced dramatically between 1998/9-2011/12 when 800,000 children were lifted out of poverty

I can't remember who was elected in 1997 and 2010. Can you, Raggy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 01:25 PM

Twist it any way you want Iains. I care not which government it is.

The fact is occuring in 21st century England is an absolute travesty.

Your support for them is also known.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 12:03 PM

t reports that 2.9 million children from WORKING families are living in poverty.
This as after 9 years of a Conservative lead government.
Not only is this tragic, it is shameful.
And to think some on here support and applaud their 'efforts'.

Shameful indeed! But the undeniable fact is that according to the Rountree foundation report child povery levels were higher under Labour.

If the Tory record is shameful what words do you suggest to summarise Labour's despicable record?

Terrible things facts. In fact poverty levels among pensioners were 15% higher under Blair.

Should we support and applaud Labour miserable efforts?
I rather fink not!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 11:56 AM

There was a comment posted by one of the pundits that the future of the UK is now in the hands of some 120,000 Conservative party members and how they are influenced by the campaigning of the potential leaders. It is true enough that I seriously looked into joining the Conservative Party for the scrap of influence on the future.

Two problems: the first, which I actually fully agree with, is that you only get voting rights after 3 months membership. That is sensible, and I might be in time, or I might not.

But the clincher is that they don't get to decide, really. They have a choice between two candidates, selected from on high. If the two have very different goals, then that would be, to coin a phrase, a meaningful vote. But if they are two people with a very similar viewpoint, which is by far the most likely thing, then is the vote is of no real significance.

No one need fear: I will not be joining the Tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM

A report today on the BBC news websites gives yet another insight into the disgraceful conduct of the Conserative government.

It reports that 2.9 million children from WORKING families are living in poverty.

This as after 9 years of a Conservative lead government.

Not only is this tragic, it is shameful.

And to think some on here support and applaud their 'efforts'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:52 AM

According to a live feed:

12:03

Raab calls for 'pragmatism' and says UK should return to EU to demand legally-binding changes to backstop

That looks like a textbook example of lack of pragmatism to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:23 AM

Lesson on the black arts from the EU.

MEPs tricked on vote for internet copyright directive

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 07:31 AM

Soooo, enticing the ERGs by dangling visions of a vacant No.10 before their starry eyes didn't work. Why waste the remains of your colours nailing them to a mast if it's just about to disappear beneath the waves? Rats and sinking ships come to mind. The perfect metaphor for their political integrity.

Not having managed to manipulate her Sunday-lunch clique with bribery, May now tries it on the whole nation. Only trouble is, it seems to be an equation. An equation with no date. Pass my deal = I will step down. Ahhh, those teensy little conjunctions "if" and "when".

What happens if the MPs don't? Or if Bercow disallows MV3? Ooops. Guess she doesn't have to abide by her word. Again.


Ian Dunt (editor of the site Politics.co.uk) writes:

"What an abominable circus. It's hard to know where the greater blame should be put. On the prime minister who has made her own eradication a bribe to force through the product of her failure? Or the great defenders of British sovereignty who have suddenly decided none of their principles mean anything if there is a chance to finish off a political rival?...

Any deal which requires the resignation of its author in order to get it passed is by default not worth supporting. And any political culture which would require the author of a deal to step down in order for MPs to back it is plainly in a state of advanced decay. What followed was a masterclass in hypocrisy so severe that it was startling even in this golden age of consequence-free political lying...

It is the Nazi-Soviet pact of the Brexit debate: a deal so cynical it contains its own gravitational field. May is prepared to offer her resignation in exchange for the deal, on the basis that if it passes she probably won't have to see it through...

The indicative votes represented the fabled parliamentary sovereignty which [the ERGs] spent the referendum insisting the country had lost. They wanted our own parliament to pass our own laws. And yet when it started to do so, they preferred vassalage."

- Ian Dunt


https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/27/the-obscene-moral-spectacle-of-theresa-may-s-resignation