BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 01:20 PM

The news over here is concentrating on the fact that this document proves that Jonson is lying about a hard border
He say there is no need for one - the now published document says a hard border is inevitably
Methinks Brexit-man speaks with forked tongue - but we all knew that already
The government are now running around like headless chickens claiming the document is a 'worst case scenario' - nowhere in the document does it state that
More lies
How low are these people going to drag Britain down and how long are the decent British people going to allow them to do so?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 03:04 PM

"This means that the UK was SCHEDULED to cease being a member of the EU at the end of 29 March 2019 Brussels time (UTC+1)"

My capital Iains, it was an asperation, not enshrined in law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 05:05 PM

Wrong!The departure date was enshrined in law until changed by a statutory instrument.

Section 20(1) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018,defined ‘exit day’ as 29 March 2019 at 11pm.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 05:24 PM

The Express has a wonderful summary of the remainiacs posturing.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1167131/brexit-EU-news-comment-Grieve-Hammond-Remain-leave-Baldwin

"Welcome to the worldview of Britain's new and appalling breed of anti-politician - the McDonnells, Hammonds, Grieves and Corbyns who scorn your opinion and hold your democracy in contempt. Oddly they appear to have no party allegiance. These political cockroaches scuttle into the daylight from all corners, under Tory floorboards, behind Labour cupboards and beneath Lib Dem rocks, seemingly united in only one thing - a crazed determination to overturn the democratic decision to leave the European Union.

So this week we find ourselves in the jaw-dropping position of having senior, grown-up politicians seriously proposing Jeremy Corbyn should seize power in some sort of cockeyed coup d'etat.

Jeremy Corbyn. VHS video in human form – an outdated, irrelevant, throwback to the 1980s, no longer of any use to anyone, and superseded by far better alternatives.

Everyone knows this.

Even Jeremy Corbyn knows this.

Jeremy Corbyn, an ageing, unreconstructed Marxist who still thinks he's fighting Thatcher and supporting the miners. Jeremy Corbyn, who now runs a party too gutless to make a decision on Brexit and too riven with anti-semitism to ever be electable. Jeremy Corbyn, an Islington cous-cous eater who wouldn't know a Scunthorpe steel mill or a Glasgow shipyard if he fell over one."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 08:15 AM

Freedom of movement will end immediately after Brexit is declared
Patel the main instigator - devastating for those living in Northern Ireland
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 09:14 AM

As I posted earlier in this thread, a lot of nonsense is spoken about what will and will not happen after Brexit.

Jim posted "Freedom of movement will end immediately after Brexit is declared
Patel the main instigator - devastating for those living in Northern Ireland"

As things stand and as indeed they stood before we joined the EU, movement between the UK and Ireland is governed by Common Travel Area agreement and, as of today, there has been no mentioned of that changing after Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 09:25 AM

Just been the major feature on the BBC news R.D.
I don't understand it either
The last border watchtower was dismantled in 2006 which "ended the border as a visible entity" but it still remains a border - I'm assuming it has something to do with that fact
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 09:36 AM

Common Travel Area between Ireland and the United Kingdom

From the link above

"On 8 May 2019, the Irish and UK governments signed a Memorandum of Understanding (pdf) reaffirming the Common Travel Area and identifying the rights and privileges of Irish and UK citizens within the CTA. It also reaffirms the commitment to maintain the CTA following Brexit"

and

"The UK’s withdrawal from the European Union (EU) will not affect the rights of Irish citizens and UK citizens within the Common Travel Area. The right to live, work and access public services in the Common Travel Area will be protected, regardless of the outcome of the Brexit negotiations."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 09:40 AM

It seems the address was too long for the "Make a link"

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 09:57 AM

I am not commenting on what anyone else has said, but we may be affected by the business of Priti Patel's idea.

My Italian daughter-in-law's father is visiting her from his home in Milan at the start of November. It is completely unclear whether he will be able to. In time, I would imagine a visitor's Visa would sort it.   But as of today, you cannot apply for one if you live in the EU. And even if you found a way to apply the site says "You should get a decision on your Visa within 3 weeks." Somehow I don't see that getting dramatically faster around the magic date. So unless all this is sorted by mid October, the visit to see his grand-daughter looks as if it might be off.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 10:39 AM

DMcG - I’m fairly sure that a lot of things people take for granted at the moment will disappear or become far more difficult after The Blond Buffoon-Puppet has driven us over the cliff-edge of a hard Brexit come Hallowe’en.

Reminds me of all the daft farmers who, almost to a man, voted Leave, and were then surprised and shocked to learn that the rotten, mean EU would no longer give them their EU subsidy hand-outs once we’re out!

You couldn’t make it up!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 01:17 PM

Councils are now preparing for food shortages following Brexit
Worst effected are people on special diets, schools, hospitals, care homes
Some councils are planning for food rationing Hastings has been mentioned in particular
Otherwise known as 'standing on your own two feet'
YOU'VE GORRA LAFF, AIN'CHA

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 04:58 PM

there was a quote from the express 'newspaper' above at 5.24. aside from the usual squabbling on here is anyone else seriously disturbed about the way our country is going. if it was the deranged and vicious insults of an individual that would be troubling and a worry for the writer but this is a newspaper opinion?! jeez, we're in a mess here - i listened to a radioo discussion last night when 2 anxious parents (different calls) were describing their difficulties in getting medicines for their children (already happening due to stockpiling) 2 callers followed this by completely ignoring these calls and went on about project fear and 'not one iota of worry' about no deal. of course, one of the callers was a tory mp. it's gone beyond politics this situation - and beyond humanity in some cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 03:06 AM

"went on about project fear"
This level of argument describes perfectly the discussion of the few Brexiteers on this forum perfectly - a total refusal to engage in what is obviously happening - instead, the pushing of a aet line - it's like trying to argue with a recorded message
Theresa May had it down to a fine art - some of her best examples are now standard fodder for 'Have I Got News For You'
NICE SUMMING-UP HERE
ENTERTAINING ONE HERE
You've gorra larf
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 04:07 AM

The Remain fanatics have so far been subject to cognitive dissonance, but are now collapsing into madness. Well exemplified by their strict adherence to the Abbacus school of maths where losing a referendum wins.
Their delusions know no bounds.

http://commentcentral.co.uk/remainer-cognitive-dissonance-has-collapsed-into-madness/

Tis a joy to behold !

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 04:54 AM

Further to my previous post about EU farm subsidies, does anyone remember all those farmers with posters on their farm gates exhorting us to vote ‘Leave’? Loads of them in the rural area I live in....

Words like ‘Country’ and ‘Bumpkins’ spring to mind!

What on Earth did they expect?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 05:48 AM

If all farm supports are withdrawn immediately on Brexit then all sectors of British farming will face immediate bankruptcy. Obviously the deranged remainiacs believe this implicitly.
This will not happen. I suggest you read the expert's views and educate yourself.

The CAP has created a system of subsidies that has created a dependency on handouts. With an average payment of 250eu/hectare it is a nice little earner. The entire system needs a comprehensive overhaul
Even after Brexit subsidies will continue. They may be radically overhauled but they will still exist.

Simply another example of project fear by the unthinking!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 06:38 AM

I see on BBC News just now that it’s reported that our Village-Idiot incompetent PM’s victim, Nazanin Zaghawi Radcliffe, is now enduring conditions in prison which have ‘worsened significantly’, and that she is no longer allowed telephone contact with her husband.

Why on earth would anyone trust that moronic buffoon, who couldn’t even be bothered to understand the circumstances of Mrs. Radcliffe’s arrest and incarceration by a regime known to deal very harshly with those it considers to be its enemies, to successfully negotiate something so hugely important to us all as our departure from the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 06:45 AM

Surely if farms are not viable they should be allowed to go to the wall. That is what our resident right wingers believed was OK for mining, steelworks,manufacturing etc etc so why not farming.

Simple.


Having lit the blue touch paper I will retire to a safe distance!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:00 AM

Farmers viable for what? A lot of payments are for maintaining the landscape in a state suitable for tourism. Sheep farmers can't make money for wool and not all that much for meat but the sheep gaze the hills and make them look pretty. For this they get paid and why not?.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:08 AM

Well, for a start it is not a natural landscape. Secondly nature is pretty good at creating it's own wonderful landscapes. Three letting nature do it would be a lot cheaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:27 AM

"Nazanin Zaghawi Radcliffe,"
The irony of this, as with the Iranian prisoner, Aras Imiri (and possibly the hero of the 'illegal' Grenfell disaster) is that, as things are heading in Britain if by some miracle, they escaped or weer freed and tried to re-enter their home country, they would probably be incarcerated in one of those inhuman refugee camps until their case was heard
Refugees from terror stand to be major victims in Brexit's 'Brave New Britain'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:29 AM

If you want a natural landscape, whatever that is, first get rid of human beings. I guess that would have to include UK lefties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:35 AM

I thought you were discussing farms and farmlands Stanron. I presumed you would be in favour of a "laissez faire" approach.

If farmers are not good enough to turn a profit from their lands let them get on a bike and find work.

Please try to keep to the topic eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 08:29 AM

Even the BBC receives EU funding. As does the EU Arms industry.
How many factories relocated to eastern Europe from the UK with the aid of EU subsidies?
There is no point in taking agriculture in isolation. You need to consider thebig picture.

Rather like Brexit and the EU march towards:
Federalism
Common foreign policy
common defence force
harmonisation and centralisation of Taxation policies
control moving more and more to the center.

As Gorbachov reputedly said:

The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 08:47 AM

Iains wrote: As Gorbachov reputedly said:

The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe

Perhaps that's why the UK Lefties are so keen on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 09:31 AM

"Perhaps that's why the UK Lefties are so keen on it."
Fre Russia - now the most unequal of European State, and the most dangerous since Nazism, is a great exampleof Western freedom and democracy - innit ?
AS FOR ARMS SALES
MOST NOTABLY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 09:41 AM

Raggytash wrote: I thought you were discussing farms and farmlands Stanron. I presumed you would be in favour of a "laissez faire" approach.

From Encyclopaedia Britannica

Laissez-faire, (French: “allow to do”), policy of minimum governmental interference in the economic affairs of individuals and society.

How can I be in favour of laissez-faire and leaving the EU. That would not be consistent. I am in favour of less government and that is consistent with leaving the EU.

With regard to sheep farming, laissez-faire would be change as little as possible so, as the UK pays the EU subsidy anyway, the smallest change is to continue subsidies to our sheep farms.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 10:02 AM

'Laissez-faire'
The policy that turned a Famine into a holocaust in 19th century Ireland
Taking Boris as an example, for the Tories 'less government' seems to mean the dictatorship of having one man in charge and a parliament with no say in the running of the country
Haven't they dried that ELSEWHERE ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 12:30 PM

"A lot of payments are for maintaining the landscape in a state suitable for tourism. Sheep farmers can't make money for wool and not all that much for meat but the sheep gaze the hills and make them look pretty."

Odd, then, that the farmers who get paid by far the most in subsidies are the multimillionaire barley barons in lowland England who have turned vast tracts of countryside into dismal, wildlife-free monoculture deserts...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 01:12 PM

BREXIT THREAT TO REFINERIES CONFIRMED
Tusk says those opposing the Backstop are supporting a hard border
He poined out that the British Parliament voted for the Backstop and Boris Johnson supported it
Boris sulks and skulks away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 05:10 PM

Odd, then, that the farmers who get paid by far the most in subsidies are the multimillionaire barley barons

Not really. the average farm size (94.7 ha) is nearly six times higher than the EU average (16.1 ha) But according to Saville's(2016)the average farm size(combinable crops) is just over 300 hectares.
30% of the direct payment allocation, paid per hectare, is linked to three environmentally-friendly farming practices: crop diversification, maintaining permanent grassland and dedicating 5 % of arable land to environmentally friendly measures (so-called 'ecological focus areas').
England has applied a basic payment at a flat rate according to three different types of land (defined as 'non-severely disadvantaged areas','lowlands & severely disadvantaged areas' and 'upland,other   moorland and moorland');
The more land you have the more dosh you get but arable farms, as explained. are larger and require greater capitilization to operate.
With sheep all you need is fencing (unless heft)and a dog or two.
A sheep costs nominally £100, a combine £125,000. There is also far more financial risk in arable farming.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 08:28 PM

May I refer people back to my opening question which was:

"Surely if farms are not viable they should be allowed to go to the wall. That is what our resident right wingers believed was OK for mining, steelworks,manufacturing etc etc so why not farming"

I can't help but notice you have all studiously avoided addressing this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 08:56 PM

Well in case you didn't get it, my answer questioned your use of the word 'viable'. If they maintain landscape in a way the Government deems desirable, then supporting them makes sense and they can be considered viable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 02:21 AM

And is that not also the case with, say, the steel industry Stanron? If they maintain the population in a way the government seems desirable, then supporting them makes sense and they can be considered viable. Or do you, as many of your party do, believe that maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 02:45 AM

"Surely if farms are not viable they should be allowed to go to the wall."
Not sure I agree with that Rag
"Viable" means profitable in the world we live in, which doesn't mean 'necessary'
Food, like housing, and many other basic needs of life, have become investable commodities rather than necessities, and as such, their production depends on their making a smaller and smaller group of people ricer and richer
I have become appalled at what this has done, both to the quality of our staple foods and to the planet as a whole, summarised perfectly in mass-produced, shit-tasting cotton-wool bread wrapped in plastic which sticks in the gullet of both the consumer and the planet.
We ere regular visitors to Walter Pardon in North Norfolk and over the time we were, watched as the Multinationals ripped up th hedgerows, making ten fields into one in order to make it easy for their monster machines   
Within 10/15 years the East Wind had ripped away all the topsoil, making a once rich agricultural area into the holidaymaker-reliant desert it has become and devastating the lives of the people living there
Maintaining Britain's farming heritage is not a romantic notion; it is part of keeping our planet in good health for future generations
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 03:26 AM

Dave the Gnome wrote: And is that not also the case with, say, the steel industry Stanron? If they maintain the population in a way the government seems desirable, then supporting them makes sense and they can be considered viable. Or do you, as many of your party do, believe that maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people?

Why do you personalise this stuff? It's nothing to do with belief or doctrine. Mine or anyone else's. It's actually to do with rules. EU rules say that it is unfair for one country to support it's industries above a certain level.

So I do think it's a good idea to support the steel industry workers. The EU rules against it. That is one, among many, of the reasons I think we should leave.

Other EU countries break these rules apparently without penalty. However the UK is a gross contributor to the EU budget. We are a cash cow to be milked. If we broke the rules we would be fined heavily, because we can afford to pay. That is another, among many, of the reasons I think we should leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 03:32 AM

Why do you personalise this stuff?

Because it was a personal question. "Or do you, as many of your party do, believe that maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people?"

You answered the question. What's the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 03:49 AM

Dave the Gnome wrote: "Or do you, as many of your party do, believe that maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people?"

This makes your attack an attack on me. If I believed "maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people" that would make me appear inhumane and my opinions could be rejected because of my monstrous nature.

It's not that I object to such an attack because it is, or could be in any way, effective. I object to it because it's childish. It happens a lot on this forum from the UK lefties.

"You say this and that means you think that and therefor you are a monster!"

It's playground stuff. I would prefer a more grown up approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 04:31 AM

Stan, it was a question. A question is not an attack. Don’t be silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 04:56 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron - PM
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM

"My appreciation is that the idiot is you, Steve."

Fairly personal, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 05:37 AM

Can I suggest that this line might well close this thread down
Just a thought
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 06:30 AM

This makes your attack an attack on me.

It wasn't an attack Stanron, it was a question. Are you feeling so insecure that you perceive any question as an attack or is it just a bad day? (Another question.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 06:35 AM

As to your comment "It happens a lot on this forum from the UK lefties." I shall let that stand but if you believe it is in any way the adult line of reasoning you seem to be advocating then I can assure you, you are wrong.

But Jim is right. Let's get back to brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 06:39 AM

Brexiteers have stopped having good days, Dave. Have you noticed how all their optimism about super duper trade deals and how the little UK is going to kick world ass once we're out has somehow seeped away? Do or die? Do AND die I think the poet actually said...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 07:03 AM

"Taking Back Control" (with apologies to Lord Alf):

Forward the Brexit Brigade!’
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the leaver knew
Boris had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do AND die,
Into the valley of Death
Rode the seventeen million
Taking the rest of us poor sods with 'em...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 07:28 AM

Within 10/15 years the East Wind had ripped away all the topsoil, making a once rich agricultural area into the holidaymaker-reliant desert it has become and devastating the lives of the people living there

Bit of an exaggeration I would say. The pedological literature does not support such an extreme view, even that relating to north Norfolk.
In the last forty years a lot more has been learnt about soils,their erosion and means of mitigating it. In tandem, legislation on watercourses has forced additional remedial measures on landowners. Far more attention is paid to cultivation techniques on slopes. Techniques such as over sowing with a cross slot drill enable seeds to be inserted through an existing cover crop. Soil erosion occurs naturally through mass wasting and has been accentuated ever since man first started farming. Growing crops comes at a price. Not growing crops comes at a price. You starve. What choice are you going to make?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 08:00 AM

Well I just nipped out to the shops and it all kicked off. Leading questions with implicit accusations are, to me, an attack. Not a million miles from "Are you still beating your wife?" or, put to UK lefties, "are you all still anti-Semites?"

In your posting

Date: 21 Aug 19 - 03:32 AM

Check which word was emboldened.

Incidentally, I'm not a member of any political party. As for Brexit, we are in a state of 'wait and see'. For all your (collectively) dire prognostications we may not know anything before Sept 1. And it is just as likely to be good news as it is to be bad news.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 08:13 AM

Whatever.

Interesting that we are still being told the news is as likely to be good as bad. In over 3 years of asking for good news there has been no response. How is the news as likely to be good going off that track record? And, yes, this is now back to brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 08:17 AM

"For all your (collectively) dire prognostications we may not know anything before Sept 1"
Damn - I thought the leaked report came from the Government !!!

No responsible government can - or has ever tried to adopt a 'wait and see" policy, vertainly not on this scale
The dfact that supporters of Brexit constantly put this up as an argument is confirmation enough that this "keep 'em all out" enterprise hs been a massive leap in the dark from day one
Crazier and crazier by the minute
Jim Carroll