BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:46 PM

Only in Westminster Hall, not in the House, and there will be no vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:47 PM

9.45pm update: MPs reject all eight Brexit alternative plans

Motion B) No deal - defeated by 400 votes to 160, majority 240.

Motion D) Common market 2.0 - defeated by 283 votes to 188, majority 95.

Motion H) Efta and EEA - defeated by 377 votes to 65, majority 312.

Motion J) Customs union - defeated by 272 votes to 264, majority eight.

Motion K) Labour's alternative plan - defeated by 307 votes to 237, majority 70.

Motion L) Revocation to avoid no-deal - defeated by 293 votes to 184, majority 109.

Motion M) Confirmatory public vote - defeated by 295 voted to 268, majority 27.

Motion O) Contingent preferential arrangements - defeated by 422 votes to 139, majority 283

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:54 PM

Indeed all options were rejected, but not equally. There will be another vote on Monday, probably, and is is very likely that all options with, say, 150 or more voting against will not get anywhere. Options with say less than 50 adrift are much more likely to pass in future.

I would not be surprised to see May's deal with a confirmation vote being the winner in the end, partially because that does not cross any of May's red lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 07:05 PM

But the SNP didn't vote on any of them except for the Margaret Beckett amendment. They are sure to weigh in at some stage. And the customs union didn't lose by large margin.

If you crunch the numbers, there were a lot of abstainers keeping their powder dry.

Meanwhile the DUP blew out of the water May's hopes for backing her deal. If Bercow even allows it to be moved.

Far from done and dusted. This was just a knock-out round.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 07:07 PM

Cross-posted with DMcG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 07:33 PM

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Rees Mogg has switched again again again. Now he's in line with the DUP. Too bad they can't delete print newspaper headlines.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 08:40 PM

It's all bloody Tory games. I'll go if you'll vote for me. I'll vote for you if the Ulster fascists vote for you, otherwise I might not. I hate your deal but I'll vote for it anyway otherwise my constituents will think I'm betraying "the will of the people." I've dragged you down twice but goddammit I'll vote for you even though your shit stinks because the one thing that'll save the country might happen if I don't.

Anyone for principles?

Anyone for what is actually in the interests of the country?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 03:29 AM

Well, nobody could accuse extreme-Right-Wing Tories like Jacob ("Call me Jake") Rich-Mong of putting country before party and their own personal wealth, could they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 03:54 AM

Who is up for writing a new version of "The Vicar of Bray"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM

They are not even trying to hide it any more.

May: Vote for my proposal. It is good.
ERG: No chance

May: Vote for my proposal. Pretty please
ERG: No chance

May: Vote for my proposal and I'll give you chance of more power
ERG: OK then!

As big a bunch of self-serving twats that ever (dis)graced a government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM

My MP voted for a no-deal (rejected by the House earlier) and for a variation of the Malthouse (explicitly taken back to the EU and trashed completely by them.) He voted against everything else.

Nice to see intelligent compromise at work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 05:00 AM

Brexit won the referendum, Parliament voted to implement that decision.
The only reason we have the present chaos is because MPs value their
sinecure more than their honour.
They may have to revamp their cvs in the not too distant future.

I see tin cans   skipping   down the road and into the very long grass

and it shall come to pass
Hosea 8:7

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM

i think we are way past the point of the game where the victims of britain's imperial wars rise up with the great trees of sherwood and across the country, cut down for car parks and boxy wee houses for thatcher's zombie children, and sweep across the land behind ivor cutler on a unicorn.

'right everybody....i'm in charge for now so be quiet......'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 07:31 AM

Soooo, enticing the ERGs by dangling visions of a vacant No.10 before their starry eyes didn't work. Why waste the remains of your colours nailing them to a mast if it's just about to disappear beneath the waves? Rats and sinking ships come to mind. The perfect metaphor for their political integrity.

Not having managed to manipulate her Sunday-lunch clique with bribery, May now tries it on the whole nation. Only trouble is, it seems to be an equation. An equation with no date. Pass my deal = I will step down. Ahhh, those teensy little conjunctions "if" and "when".

What happens if the MPs don't? Or if Bercow disallows MV3? Ooops. Guess she doesn't have to abide by her word. Again.


Ian Dunt (editor of the site Politics.co.uk) writes:

"What an abominable circus. It's hard to know where the greater blame should be put. On the prime minister who has made her own eradication a bribe to force through the product of her failure? Or the great defenders of British sovereignty who have suddenly decided none of their principles mean anything if there is a chance to finish off a political rival?...

Any deal which requires the resignation of its author in order to get it passed is by default not worth supporting. And any political culture which would require the author of a deal to step down in order for MPs to back it is plainly in a state of advanced decay. What followed was a masterclass in hypocrisy so severe that it was startling even in this golden age of consequence-free political lying...

It is the Nazi-Soviet pact of the Brexit debate: a deal so cynical it contains its own gravitational field. May is prepared to offer her resignation in exchange for the deal, on the basis that if it passes she probably won't have to see it through...

The indicative votes represented the fabled parliamentary sovereignty which [the ERGs] spent the referendum insisting the country had lost. They wanted our own parliament to pass our own laws. And yet when it started to do so, they preferred vassalage."

- Ian Dunt


https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/27/the-obscene-moral-spectacle-of-theresa-may-s-resignation

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:23 AM

Lesson on the black arts from the EU.

MEPs tricked on vote for internet copyright directive

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:52 AM

According to a live feed:

12:03

Raab calls for 'pragmatism' and says UK should return to EU to demand legally-binding changes to backstop

That looks like a textbook example of lack of pragmatism to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM

A report today on the BBC news websites gives yet another insight into the disgraceful conduct of the Conserative government.

It reports that 2.9 million children from WORKING families are living in poverty.

This as after 9 years of a Conservative lead government.

Not only is this tragic, it is shameful.

And to think some on here support and applaud their 'efforts'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 11:56 AM

There was a comment posted by one of the pundits that the future of the UK is now in the hands of some 120,000 Conservative party members and how they are influenced by the campaigning of the potential leaders. It is true enough that I seriously looked into joining the Conservative Party for the scrap of influence on the future.

Two problems: the first, which I actually fully agree with, is that you only get voting rights after 3 months membership. That is sensible, and I might be in time, or I might not.

But the clincher is that they don't get to decide, really. They have a choice between two candidates, selected from on high. If the two have very different goals, then that would be, to coin a phrase, a meaningful vote. But if they are two people with a very similar viewpoint, which is by far the most likely thing, then is the vote is of no real significance.

No one need fear: I will not be joining the Tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 12:03 PM

t reports that 2.9 million children from WORKING families are living in poverty.
This as after 9 years of a Conservative lead government.
Not only is this tragic, it is shameful.
And to think some on here support and applaud their 'efforts'.

Shameful indeed! But the undeniable fact is that according to the Rountree foundation report child povery levels were higher under Labour.

If the Tory record is shameful what words do you suggest to summarise Labour's despicable record?

Terrible things facts. In fact poverty levels among pensioners were 15% higher under Blair.

Should we support and applaud Labour miserable efforts?
I rather fink not!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 01:25 PM

Twist it any way you want Iains. I care not which government it is.

The fact is occuring in 21st century England is an absolute travesty.

Your support for them is also known.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 01:28 PM

From the Child Poverty Action Group

Child poverty reduced dramatically between 1998/9-2011/12 when 800,000 children were lifted out of poverty

I can't remember who was elected in 1997 and 2010. Can you, Raggy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 02:55 PM

Any fool can play games with statistics. Political parties come and go, as do economic cycles. To take one statistic and plot it against time is simplistic in the extreme. It needs to   be studied in context and trying to play party politics by simplifying the underlying realities achieves nothing other than a loss of credibility. There have been major changes in society over the last 20 years and in government policies. There were also depressions in the early 80's, 90's and 2008/9.

Interest rates generally declined during the recession from a peak of 17.0% at the beginning of 1980 to a low of 9.6% in October 1982.
Unemployment rose from 6.9% of the working population in 1990 to 10.7% in 1993.Annual inflation was 9.5% in 1990, 5.9% in 1991, 3.7% in 1992. and 1.6% in 1993. Interest rates were stubbornly high initially but declined from a high of 14.8% at the start of the recession to a low of 5.9% by the end of the recession
Manufacturing output declined 7% by end 2008 during the late 2000s financial crisis. The unemployment rate rose to 8.3% (2.68m people) in August 2011, the highest level since 1994.

All played a part.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:12 PM

any fool can play games with statistics.

many of us on the left are totally scunnered with tony blair . however, he did pump billions into public services and working in the public sector we could all see the difference (just don't mention PPI!) the tories never stop reminding us of how much the labour party spent. but, proper jobs were there providing security for families and communities. people were able to access a welfare system largely without punitive and indiscriminate sanctions. etc etc etc.....

however, it hardly needs saying that tories will always work to dismantle the state for the benefit of their rich friends. and 'the left' should always work to support it for all our benefit. as michael foot said - something like - 'the rich have no need of government as they will always prosper' it's vital for the rest of society. it's our countries' tragedy that it is always the rich who run it and that so many of us believe the lies and continue to believe that only the toffs know how to run the show.

we need more faith and belief in ourselves. to believe in the tories and their lies is unforgivable when they are so shamelessly greedy and inept.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 01:48 AM

It's just not worth the effort with some people, Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM

Perhaps gnome but unlike you my reputation here is intact! Now how about a contribution to the discussion instead of your usual sniping.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM

Brexit: Police brace for disorder after far-right protesters threaten to riot at London rallies

Let's hope that is no more than nervousness and it all comes to nothing. But it will be a big contrast to the Leave march with 1,000,000 or so attendees if it does happen. Both sides are disappointed at the outcome, but their response could be very different.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:10 AM

Obviously I hate Murdoch and The Sun (especially as a Liverpool fan), but if I may be allowed a moment of levity deep in this vale of tears I'd like to draw attention to today's Sun front page, which, referring to "Brexy's Midnight Runners," follows with the headline COME ON ARLENE


(Seen online, by the way. I'd rather hack off my gonads with a rusty machete than pay money for that despicable rag, but I've gotta applaud that headline writer).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM

1300! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM

I think it was a general question, Jim. No-one who wants to keep their sanity interacts with him any more.

Nice to see you BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM

"Nice to see you BTW."
Never went far Dave - why waste a good forum with light entertainment such as this over a few bad experiences ?
You'd have to pay a great deal to get into a circus that offers clowns as entertaining as this one
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 07:37 AM

Twitter's a gold mine for entertainment. Fave Brexit tweet so far:

Brexit is a terrible name for it. Sounds like cereal you eat when you're constipated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:04 AM

Well, happy Brexit Day #1...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:23 AM

Great street scene before Parliament today of extremist Brexiteers like Lord Snooty admitting that even if they vote for any of the proposals todaythey don't agree the terms they will be supporting
Utterly insane national suicide which will only please the worst of the narrow-minded keep-'em-outers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:23 AM

Great street scene before Parliament today of extremist Brexiteers like Lord Snooty admitting that even if they vote for any of the proposals todaythey don't agree the terms they will be supporting
Utterly insane national suicide which will only please the worst of the narrow-minded keep-'em-outers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:50 AM

3 times is the charm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 09:36 AM

Bad luck around here
I' having an appalling internet posting problem at present - not sure if it's this forum or a local speed problem
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:14 PM

It's not just you, Jim. Copy everything before sending.

By the way, Jim, "a**s" can't just be "arse" with the 'e' missing. Too many **s for that. Unless it's the Scottish pronunciation in which you roll your 'r's, in which case you could conceivably spell it "arrse." But it's more commonly rendered "erse" or "errse" in my experience.

Roll your 'r's? Roll your arse?? God, I'm confused...

Dave, you can even roll an axis...

And I note the the Commons has just given Theresa a well-deserved kick up the 'arris...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:16 PM

Or do I mean an axle, Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:58 PM

"Too many **s for that. "
Don't forget the sender is innumerate as well as illiterate

Iains
You have been a serial abuser since you joined this forum - the pathetic number of responses to your abuse are - well - pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 01:28 PM

May's proposals kicked into touch again
You really couldn't make this up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 02:15 PM

Her deal was a load of b***llo**cks, Jim. Total sh***te.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 02:36 PM

"A second EU Referendum would be undemocratic", said the PM who brought her 'Deal' back to Parliament to be voted on three times, and is now threatening to bring it back for a fourth vote next week!

What was that thing the Brexshitters were saying about 're-running the vote until you get the result you want'?

Sauce, goose, gander.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 03:03 PM

"Her deal was a load of b***llo**cks, Jim. Total sh***te."
Of course it was - why should it be any different from everything connected with this catastrophe ?
As bad as it was, the alternatives are far, far worse, to Britain and to Ireland
Britain has been shedding bompanies faster than a stripper shrows her knickers into the crowd - even financial backers of Brexit are rapily moving their businesses elsewhere
One of the most persistent maritime superstitions is that of rats leaving a sinking ship
The people who are re-siting their businesses are in a win-win situation - they still profit from Britain while pouring their profits into other counties - as usual, it's us that will take the brunt of this farce - we are now - promoted to road-crash dummies
Ireland stands to have its businesses badly damaged, but most worrying, if Britain crashes out without a deal there is a serious risk that decades of negotiation to reach peace will be flushed down the pan
I have not time for any form of capitalism, but I'd rather see the world freed from it out of choice rather than necessity brought about by war and want
Despite al the EU's undeniable flaws Id rather try then that the alternative
Ther same goes fro May, by the way - would you want your daughter to bring Boris Johnson home ?
Frigged if I would
At least May recognises the dangers of crashing out "Put-Your Money-Elswhere Quickly" Moggie sees only the personal profits in leaving Europe - sod the sinking ship and all who sink in her
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 03:08 PM

So, a poorly understood plebiscite, a rotten decision, an amazing amount of obfuscation all round, there is no walking away from the brink?

That plank gotta be walked?

That bitter pill gotta be swallowed?

That last chord gotta be played even when the string is broke?

That last bit of programming gotta be included in the final product even though the commenting was unclear, the subroutine was written by that weird kid with the actual safety pin in his cheek, and the beta test indicated that many users were showing an inclination to take the DVD installment disk and use it a a frisbee for the dog?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 05:16 PM

Well, at least there's a bit of good news about Brexit - we didn't leave today the way the BrexShit-lemmings had hoped. With any luck, sanity will prevail and the whole lunatic escapade will be kicked into touch for good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 05:58 PM

It's 11pm in three minutes. I'm indulging in a very large celebratory glug of EU wine at that instant...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:00 PM

*GLUG*

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:02 PM

...and Jim didn't get my joke... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 02:23 AM

"...and Jim didn't get my joke... :-("
Sorry 'bout that Steve
I was indulging in a large celebratory glug of English beer which, unfortunately, can only be got in bottles here - god - how I miss Young's Ordinary !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 03:34 AM

Remain MP Dominic Grieve suffers no confidence vote from his local constituency party.
Colleagues of the Conservative MP and former minister have branded the vote in his constituency as "disgraceful". The more sensible would see it as a payback.
I wonder how many others face de-selection on both sides of the house. Treachery brings it's own rewards!
Now the real battle begins.