BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 04:05 AM

"Now can we talk about Brexit? "
Amen to that
Sorry Mac - cross posted
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 03:47 AM

It seems to me this thread has been treading water for some time
The two genuine Brexiteers here seem to not want to comment on what is happening to Britain for fear of incriminating themselves, and this clown offers nothing (as is his wont) and is intent in sabotaging any attempt to seriously discuss what is, in fact a serious situation.
Anybody who has insulted and maligned the decisions and integrity of the Mods, accusing them of censorship and bias, as often as he has recently, and then makes the statement he just has, should not be allowed to take up space here
WE are behaving like a bunch of indulgent adults looking on fondly while a disturbed child wrecks the place
I suggest we either move on and discuss the subject or stop taking up space on this forum
Tolerating this shit is allowing us to sink to this guys level
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 03:44 AM

I confess to being a serial IP flipper. Every time I use my mobile phone on wifi on a different cafe, hotel or otherwise out and about it will have a different IP address. Because that is how the Internet works.

Now can we talk about Brexit? Gove is saying the government is now assuming a no deal which is a shade different to one chance on a million a few days ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 03:04 AM

Howzat, IP flitter?
You made the allegation rather more forcefully in a recent post saying you had proof I was using multiple IP addresses.
The only proof of your unfounded allegation that I am using multiple IP addresses would be by you having access to the mudcat servers. That is not something you can do, only moderators have this facility.

Now on a totally separate matter I did have communication with Mudcat recently about a post allegedly from my IP address that I am confident I did not author. Those communications independently verified a consistent IP address that I was using.(This covered a period of several months where an update of firefox deleted my cookies each time I shut my computer down,thus there were times where inadvertently I would be posting as a guest above the line, unless I reset my cookie)

So this leads me to conclude you are but a troublemaking liar, and by your lies you are trying to intimate that at least one moderator is colluding with you by supplying data about a mudcat member that you could not independently access

So Shaw, you have a little explaining to do, to all of us

I trust the moderators will suitably chastise you for impugning their integrity and not simply delete this email.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 04:13 PM

Pinocchio maybe, and I'd wager that, in view of your dishonesty, your nose is at least a foot long (do you use it as a rule?) Howzat, IP flitter?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 04:04 PM

The king is Elvis and you are so obviously someone's puppet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 02:16 PM

pink unicorns, candyfloss, rainbows...

Here is a gem from Guido:


https://order-order.com/2019/07/27/commentariat-versus-reality/

A perfect summary of fact versus waycism accusations.

Despite all the protestation of the left:
Trump is the President
Bojo is the PM
and Bob Wills is still the King

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 12:30 PM

Raggytash wrote: So Stanron, you want us to accept your decision which you admit you have no grounds on which to base it and to ignore almost every expert in numerous fields of banking, fiance, medicine, industry and law.

For some reason I am not comfortable with that.

Well let's see, I'm going to give you A+ for creative imagination and Z- for accuracy.

I would not be comfortable with your first sentence either, but I think on different grounds. The construction is awful and the content is a mixture of pure imagination and poor comprehension.

Never mind, it may never happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 12:14 PM

I was a tad surprised yesterday Iains when you stated that you back up your statements with links.

The only links I can recall are to the Guido website and he, in particular, deals entirely in "soundbites" and he seldom, if ever, provides links.

I have asked you on numerous occasions to use quotation marks when you use someone else's words, you never do so.

I have also requested on numerous occasions that you provide links to your "quotes" I cannot recall ONE occasion when you have done so.

May I suggest that you put your own house in order. You may find that is not only more acceptable to other posters but also to the Moderators.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 12:00 PM

More intellectual gems from our resident fundamentalist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 11:50 AM

leftist twaddle- encourage
Facts = Delete

The leftard wonderland.
ain't life wonderful?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 10:52 AM

So Stanron, you want us to accept your decision which you admit you have no grounds on which to base it and to ignore almost every expert in numerous fields of banking, fiance, medicine, industry and law.

For some reason I am not comfortable with that. I would like positive grounds for me to change my position.

Unicorns, fairies and elves just don't cut it in my world, so provide some positives or better still join the campaign to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 10:52 AM

So Stanron, you want us to accept your decision which you admit you have no grounds on which to base it and to ignore almost every expert in numerous fields of banking, fiance, medicine, industry and law.

For some reason I am not comfortable with that. I would like positive grounds for me to change my position.

Unicorns, fairies and elves just don't cut it in my world, so provide some positives or better still join the campaign to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 07:23 AM

Looks like the U.K., under Boris The Saviour, has nailed it! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 07:22 AM

And it seems Rees-Mogg is proving an inspiration. As reported in the Yorkshire Post:

The new Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has imposed a two page limit on information sent to him about the management of Britain’s railways.

In an internal email, seen by The Yorkshire Post, contributors to the Department’s Rail Group are also warned that Mr Shapps will “pay attention to the font sizes and margins” of any documents he receives.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 06:54 AM

I was especially taken with the instruction to use imperial units (his bolding).

Not always that easy. Temperatures, for example. Neither Fahrenheit nor Centigrade/Celsius is am imperial measurement. The Réaumur scale was approved in Russia by the Tzars, so I suppose you could call that imperial, but it is probably not what he means.

But of course the scientific scale is °K, named after Baron Kelvin, who was Irish-Scottish. I suppose we will all have to switch to that.   " By 'eck, its going to be hot - they are predicting 250°! I think you will find that is quite cold really."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 06:41 AM

Well it’s good to see that Jacob (“Call Me Jake”) Rich-Mong is getting down to dealing with the really important issues in his new job.

His next move will probably be to push the Trade Secretary to start negotiations to re-open trade with Cathay, Abyssinia, and Mesopotamia.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 05:22 AM

According to the front-page headlines in 'The Times' this morning, Bonkers Boris is proposing to spend £2Bn of the taxpayers money in an effort to win Labour voters to supporting him in the 'Leave- voting heartland.
I wonder if this will be declared as an election expense !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 04:03 AM

A no deal brexit could vastly increase the prices of the quality continental produce on which we rely. It isn't clear what it will do to availability either. Jo just don't do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 03:41 AM

"One of the principal aims of the Dublin Regulation is to prevent an applicant from submitting applications in multiple Member States. "
So - what's your point ???
Ireland is run by people who share many values and differences to human suffering that put profit before people as do those running Britain
The Irish Government's opening the door to Vulture Capitalism, which has allowed firms like Goldman Sachs to buy up rented property and evict the tenants in order to gentrify and resell it for profit has led to a rapidly increasing homelessness problem
The difference in Ireland is that we have people prepared to take to the streets on behalf of the homeless and the less well off
I am constantly moved by the young people outside the GPO in O'Connell Street, permanently drawing attention to the problem
Would that the British Students return to their fondly remembered past protests
Of course, students in Britain have their own escalating problems thanks to higher education being a commodity to be bought rather than a natural right for all.

The more democratic P.R. voting system has prevented the worst excesses, but Ireland is suffering from a decaying capitalism, as is the rest of the world.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 12:57 AM

Your problem is you have read or heard forcasts that said 'could' and, in your desire for bad news have substituted the word 'will'.

If you go back to the source material, and not the reinterpretations of others, you may be able to see that each 'could' has a possible 'could not' or a possible opposite. They were usually saying something like "It could be good and it could be bad. We don't really know."

There is an American sitcom called 'Young Sheldon' that dealt with this, thought they were talking about the existence of God. As best I remember the relevant sentences were like this:


"You ae confusing possibilities with probabilities. It is possible that when I go home there is a million dollars lying on my bed. It is also possible there isn't. In what world are they 50-50?"

In that example, of course "we don't really know" either. But using all the information and experience we have, we know which is more likely. And it is the same with the forecasts of the impact of no-deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 04:24 PM

"It could be argued that the EU has never negotiated."

Where have you been for the last three years?

"The leaving arrangement has been rejected by Parliament three times. Each time the reason given was the backstop. Each time the EU refused to renegotiate. It still says it will not renegotiate. I think it is fair to say they will not, in the future, renegotiate."

The backstop is not negotiable. Either we have a backstop or we jeopardise trade between us and Ireland and risk flare-ups at the border. You can't have a bit of a backstop or a time-limited backstop. Use your brain on that one. The irony is that, given constructive cooperation in negotiating a trade deal, there'd never be any need for the bloody thing at all.   

"As for 'mindless nationalism', a standard accusation of the communist theology as I recall, you might be in trouble there because the EU sees itself as becoming one nation. Then what will you do?"

Typical brexiteer bullshit. How many times do I have to say this. The EU comprises 28 nations, each of which is fiercely nationalistic and jealous of its own distinctive identity. The occasional oddball who's lost his head might still declare that pie-in-the-sky aspiration, but it can't happen. EU countries all, to a greater or lesser extent, have the power of veto over changes they see as undesirable. A one-nation Europe can never, ever happen. Get honest, will you?

Some getting-in-proportion context: our financial dealings with the EU constitute one percent of our GDP. The EU has no control over our domestic laws. In the last three decades the UK has agreed without demur to 95% of new EU laws and regulations, has abstained on about 2% and disagreed with 3%. The vast majority of new EU regulations are agreed by consensus without going to a vote. No EU law or regulation is ever imposed by unelected bureaucrats. The UK, as one of the leading EU nations, has considerable powers of veto. There is no European army because the UK has said no, and there never will be as long as we remain members.

I could go on. But why let facts get in the way of sacred ideology, Stan?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 04:20 PM

NO DEAL BREXIT COULD LEAD TO 45% FOOD PRICE INCREASE or it could be 25% decrease
Future of FISHING UNCERTAIN without internationally agreed quotas and spawning grounds Fishing is not so much uncertain as defunct

As far the refugees seeking asylum in Britain - most of them have made landfall in other countries and thus are economic migrants. Treatment of refugees is subject to UNCR convention of 1951 and the EU Dublin Agreement. In July 2017, the European Court of Justice upheld the Dublin Regulation, declaring that it still stands despite the high influx of 2015, giving EU member states the right to deport migrants to the first country of entry to the EU.
One of the principal aims of the Dublin Regulation is to prevent an applicant from submitting applications in multiple Member States. Another aim is to reduce the number of "orbiting" asylum seekers, who are shuttled from member state to member state. The country in which the asylum seeker first applies for asylum is responsible for either accepting or rejecting the claim, and the seeker may not restart the process in another jurisdiction. This has been clarified several times on this forum yet you still misrepresent it so you can blame the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 03:19 PM

Dave the Gnome wrote: Why on earth anyone would take a leap in the dark with the future of an entire nation is beyond me I'm afraid.

As I said earlier I have given my reasons and others have given theirs. I know you won't accept any of them but you could find examples in history. Actually I'm sure I could find them but, of course that's not the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 03:00 PM

Stan - thanks for helping,
but I'm already aware of that work around from other previous epic threads...

As you point out, it's not ideal for trying to join in on an already dauntingly over lengthy thread.


.. and my mobile devices / wireless connection even refuse to play ball with that option...

Thanks again anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:50 PM

It could be good and it could be bad. We don't really know.

So you are telling us you voted for something without knowing if it was a good or bad thing? And expect us to "Lighten up. It will be fine."

If ifs and ands were pots and pans not only would there be no work for tickets but your arguments would make sense. Why on earth anyone would take a leap in the dark with the future of an entire nation is beyond me I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:36 PM

Raggytash wrote: The disputes came from almost every source.

From Government forecasts, the banking and finance industries, the CBI, almost every "captain of Industry".

Your problem is you have read or heard forcasts that said 'could' and, in your desire for bad news have substituted the word 'will'.

If you go back to the source material, and not the reinterpretations of others, you may be able to see that each 'could' has a possible 'could not' or a possible opposite. They were usually saying something like "It could be good and it could be bad. We don't really know."

You have selectively edited this to be all bad news. Lighten up. It will be fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:31 PM

No elucidation Staron
No surprise there
My points remain unchallenged
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:29 PM

Nigel
NO DEAL BREXIT COULD LEAD TO 45% FOOD PRICE INCREASE
Future of FISHING UNCERTAIN
As far as immigration is concerned, many of us believe Britain is morally obliged to take in refugees and immigrants from countries we trade with who are paying slave-level wages in order to sell abroad
Refusing to do so is to contribute to a re-introduction of a form of slavery
You may believe that to be "an advantage"
As far the refugees seeking asylum in Britain - most of them are fleeing from wars and conditions we have helped create
That is debasing Britain, not assisting it
THE HUMAN COST OF OUR REFUGEE POLICIES

Tell us again
What are the advantages Brexit has to offer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:21 PM

punkfolkrocker wrote: ..and my 'not state of the art' smart phones and tablets just give up,
and refuse to load it at all...

Under the 'Messages' heading, where the number of replies is given, long threads have a letter 'd' after the number. Click on the letter 'd' and you get just one page of the latest replies. So far this thread has 60 pages so loading just one page will be a lot quicker.

The downside is that the latest post is at the top so you have to find the last post you read and then scroll up. When I used to do it I always acrolled in the wrong direction. There may be a way to turn in upside down but I don't know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:16 PM

"and although the points were generally disputed"

The disputes came from almost every source.

From Government forecasts, the banking and finance industries, the CBI, almost every "captain of Industry".

So I ask again what do YOU know about Brexit that will be beneficial to me, my son an my Grandchildren and to many,many other people like me.

What do you know that all these other people and bodies are missing.

Tell us in CLEAR and UNCERTAIN terms how we will be better off

IF you can do that I may support your argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:08 PM

..and my 'not state of the art' smart phones and tablets just give up,
and refuse to load it at all...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:02 PM

mudcat mates - any chance you can put this one to a tidyish closure,

and start a new "Brexit #4" thread from scratch...

A refresh might be timely in this new era post Boris 'elected' as PM...

Besides which, this one takes too long for my overheating straining PC to open...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 01:57 PM

Most recently answered 8 July 19:
Some details have been given many times, but always dismissed by those who asked for the details. So it becomes somewhat pointless to try again, however:
Reduced food prices for food bought from around the world, where we currently have EU imposed tariffs designed to protect the farming communities on mainland Europe
Control of our own fishing waters, rather than allowing the EU to decide on fishing quotas.
The ability to control the number of migrants coming from the EU.
Those are three of the benefits mentioned many times, but doubtless they will be ignored again.

and although the points were generally disputed, it would be nice if you would stop your continual insistence that you have never been answered.
You even responded to the above discussion, so can't say that you didn't see it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 01:48 PM

Added to which, "taking back control" is neutral in itself. If the Parliament has more control it can be beneficial or otherwise depending on how the government of the day chooses to use it. Remember that any Tory who demands 'taking back control' is demanding Corbyn/Labour has more control of their lives, not just the Conservatives. And similarly any Labour leaving is insisting Tories should have more control of their lives.

You get the whole package, for good or ill.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 01:35 PM

No Stanron, you have not. FULL STOP.

On no occasion have you, or any others of the Brexiteers, told me and others like me, how we will be better off.

Gaining control of our borders is meaningless if it only excludes Europeans so we can forget that. Much of our overwhelmingly needed immigration does not come from Europe, but we cannot function without it. It is vital to the wellbeing of our country.

Regaining our "sovereignty' we never lost it.

Taking back control? The likes of you and I never had any.

So Stanron tell me just how I will be better off.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 01:17 PM

"Thanks for the laugh."
Thanks for your comprehensive rebuttal - as usual
It appears to be what passes for debate in your world
I won't bother asking you to elucidate

It needs to be remembered that a watered down form of socialism rebuilty Britain after a devastating world war despite the determined opposition of your lot when each reform was introduced - the health service, housing for all and the sharing of the national wealth for the good of all rather than profit
Maggie turned homes into commodities, we lost our industries eventually because there was no profit in them - only the wealthy can now afford higher education - and our National Health Service is hanging by a thread (I seem to remember Donald Trump offered to buy it and there are many among you who would happily sell it to him)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 12:50 PM

To Backwoodsman

No I'm referring to people who use terms like 'mindless nationalsm' and little Englander'.

To Raggytash

I've done that at least twice before. Look it up.

To Jim Carroll

Thanks for the laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 12:45 PM

"One of life's pleasing peculiarities is that the committed communist views the theoretical principles of his politics with the same fervour that the religious zealot worships his God

That is pretty much a description of every kind of zealot, including those Brexiteers who are unconcerned if the UK splits up, or if we 'may have short term' disadvantages in the hope of something better long term - while offering no evidence that hope will be fulfilled.

I wouldn't particularly describe it as pleasing, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 12:30 PM

"One of life's pleasing peculiarities is that the committed communist views the theoretical principles of his politics with the same fervour that the religious zealot worships his God"
Communism never existed as a system - it was an aim - that equality of opportunity should be available to all
That wasn't a 'religion' it was an ideal well worth struggling for
No promise of paradise after death, just an aim to better the lot of mankind - and to a degree, it worked-

It turned an Empire made up largely of feudal and semi feudal States into a modern contender on the world stage within five decades, despite having started in a destructive war of attrition, undergoing a revolution, a civil war supported by 14 invading foreign powers, another world conflict in which led to the slaughter of more people than any other nation on the planet... and a benevolent dictator who ended up undermining the ideals of the system being aimed for
Where a distorted Socialist State produced Stalin, Western European Industrial Capitalism produced Hitler.

The proof of the pudding lies in the eating, 'Free Russia' is now the second greatest threat to world peace today (next to Trump's U.S.) and is the most unequal State in modern Europe.
Some of the 'former communist countries' are rapidly reverting to fascist States - the consequences for this can be seen by lookign at what happened in former Yugoslavia once Tito's velvet grip was eased.

None of this has anything to do with the E.U. of course, which is a group of States living under a dying system and trying to make the best of things until they find something better - it is a short-term measure England (not Britain) has never really lost its Empire mentality of leeching off the poorer nations and is, with the help of the other rich and powerful nations, turning the population of the Third World into Itinerants and refugees
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:58 AM

So tell me Stanron, just how will I, and others like me, be better off once we leave the EU.

I've have asked this question scores of time and no-one, but no-one has felt able to answer me.

If you had some positives to put forward I may well be able to support the notion but as yet I know of none.

So over to you Stanron, come up with some ideas for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:54 AM

Are you seriously suggesting that everyone who doesn’t support Brexit is a ‘communist’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:41 AM

One of life's pleasing peculiarities is that the committed communist views the theoretical principles of his politics with the same fervour that the religious zealot worships his God. The fact that the true communist acknowledges no God just makes it better.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:14 AM

"It could be argued that the EU has never negotiated."
It could, of course, but it wouldn't be true
The E.U. has bent over backwards to accommodate Britain's position, but has fallen short of sacrificing the interests of it's member nations, which, as a resident of one of them, am eternally grateful
You refer to the E.U. as a single entity as if it was one State - it isn't, it represents 28, Britain being only one of them
Ireland stands to lose most immediately in terms of the risk of re-establishing a hard border
I have seen little understanding of that from your side of the table
Brexit was pushed through on the basis of a vote of a minority of the British people, the majority of those who did vote was so small as to have bitterly divided the population.
The dogged refusal of the Government to re-run the referendum makes it highly probable that Brexit will take place against the majority of the people's wishes, given what hes been revealed of the consequences of leaving
It has become a lemming-march of English nationalists who wish to get out - bugger the consequences - even many of those who put their money into leaving have now pulled out and invested elsewhere.
We know that the North of Ireland and Scotland voted to stay

There is no way whatever that the EU will ever become one nation - Greece, Germany, France, Italy, with their histories and relationships...... are you out of your mind
Personally, as an Internationalist, I don't give a toss what a country calls itself if it stops us blowing each other up - I've enjoyed a life of travelling to different places and benefited greatly from living in one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world - you don't have to be swamped by other cultures because you choose to share them

I would go look up the term "theology" if I were you - communism has no sky fairies looking down on it
I spent decades of my life having my nose rubbed in English nationalism - certainly long enough to be immunised from it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:11 AM

It could be argued that the EU has never negotiated


Certainly it could be argued. Almost anything can. People argue the world is flat, you know. But whether you agree with it or not, the mere existence of a Withdrawal Agreement is evidence that the EU negotiated. That the £39billion settlement (now £33billion) was originally higher is evidence that the EU negotiated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:10 AM

No problem with it whatsoever, BWM. The shit will hit the fan when Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU and Ireland becomes reunited and also in the EU. At that point in time England, and possibly Wales, become stuck between major trading powers with no chance whatsoever of rejoining the EU. I wonder who our resident brexiteers will prefer to get in bed with? The USA, China or Russia?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:02 AM

”As for 'mindless nationalism', a standard accusation of the communist theology as I recall, you might be in trouble there because the EU sees itself as becoming one nation.”

You mean, a bit like The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland that we’ve been a part of for the past ninety-seven years - a number of different countries, each with its own language and customs, joined in a socio-economic group and taking advantage of the benefits of centralised government with limited devolution, trading as a bloc, having the same currency, the same tax-structure, unlimited movement of goods and people intra-bloc, etc., etc?

The problem with that is.....what?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 10:26 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: "The EU has said it will not negotiate"
The EU has already negotiated and Britain has rejected what it has come up with
Britain represents its own opinions (it's a moot point whether they are in Briain's interests) which, is some cases, adversely affects those of other countries - Ireland being the most obvious.
The consequences of a wrong decision should be obvious to all, yet Johnson declares that the backstop has to go
That is not negotiable
A call for leaving Europe, given the facts that are now available, is mindless nationalism with deadly consequences
You are the last person to be in the position to accuse others of refusing to negotiate Stanron
When have you ever been prepared to even discuss your own pronouncements - not in my recollection
JIm Carroll

It could be argued that the EU has never negotiated. The leaving arrangement has been rejected by Parliament three times. Each time the reason given was the backstop. Each time the EU refused to renegotiate. It still says it will not renegotiate. I think it is fair to say they will not, in the future, renegotiate.

As for 'mindless nationalism', a standard accusation of the communist theology as I recall, you might be in trouble there because the EU sees itself as becoming one nation. Then what will you do?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 09:03 AM

Of course things could be better before that, I understand. Neither he nor I are suggestng a big switch is thrown in 2050; improvements would be gradual. But he chose not to say 2040. He chose not to say 2030...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 08:59 AM

Here is a bit of the PMs speech:

And that is why I believe that if we bend our sinews to the task now, there is every chance that in 2050, when I fully intend to be around, though not necessarily in this job, we will look back on this period, this extraordinary period, as the beginning of a new golden age for our United Kingdom

Mark that timescale. For someone starting work today, there is "every chance" that things are good by the time they are approaching retirement age (assuming such a thing still exists.)