BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 02:09 AM

When it all starts to go tits-up, the only thing to do is to find the funny side!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 03:08 AM

"Not A NO-DEAL BREXIT, Steve."
That is typical of the distortion that sold this 'cat-in-a-bag' distortion in the fist place
It was bought by a large enough minority of the British people to squeeze it through by a hair's breadth and now that it has obviously become totally unacceptable, those who benefit from the dangerous populism that has been let out of the bottle, democracy has been dispelled with totally because it has become an obstacle to the ambitions of the few.
Leaving Europe is no longer an issue; with some people, I doubt if it ever has been - it is about the maintenance of power by mob-rule (aka 'populism') - by appealing to peoples' prejudices rather than their intelligence and natural humanity

Brexit has proved itself a bad decision - the Government's own survey has shown it to be a dangerous step backwards - economically, socially and politically - even the bullies here trying to bluster their non-arguments through realise that - that's why they have refused to discuss the real issues from day one
One sneers and struts - the other makes his quick jibes and beats it until the coast is clear

Watching this circus from a distance has made me realise how vastly superior a PR system of voting is to the first-past-the-post decisions
This mess has come about simply by the success of appealing to the prejudices of a significant minority of the British people - mob rule
Johnson, Farage.... and the rest of them know this - and they know they will not get away with it again - that's why they refuse the people a second chance to right a bad decision.

If the Labour Party and the elected workesr movements have anything worth offering, they will abandon Parliamentary tactics and take the people onto the streets in their masses to restore a semblance of the democracy that has been breached by the self-interest thugs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM

If the Labour Party and the elected workesr movements have anything worth offering, they will abandon Parliamentary tactics and take the people onto the streets in their masses to restore a semblance of the democracy that has been breached by the self-interest thugs

What an asinine post. Inciting rioting in the UK while hiding in the west of Ireland. What planet do you live on?

As I keep saying the majority voted to leave the EU. Recent polls suggest the majority fully agree with proroguing Parliament.(89% of readers of the express. No. Polled >16k)
As one interviewee said " “Yes. It is right to prorogue parliament. It is a law to implement Brexit, and yet all sorts of delays blocking are being orchestrated by the very same people who voted for Brexit to become a law."
Another said, “Yes, Boris is entirely correct to prorogue our rogue Parliament, which descended into mass hysteria and is defying the will of the people in the referendum that it ordered.
A third commenter said: “Haha, just look at faces on these treasonous remainers now. Last time I saw this many long faces, I was watching the Grand National.”

A forth, referring to the Commons Speaker, said: “Of course it’s right. Otherwise this thing could drag on for years. Plus it could be a chance to get rid of that odious little creep Bercow.”

A fifth keen voter added: “Can I vote 500 times because the answer would be YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES............500 times!!”

In the real world the majority view expressed on here by disgruntled remainers is resoundingly a minority, albeit a very shouty one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 04:41 AM

The idea of another referendum (a third, not a second) is one that I've reluctantly come to see as the only way out of all this, but it has nothing to do with the firestorm of the last 24 hours. This is about trying to prevent a NO-DEAL brexit, not preventing brexit altogether. It would be good if we tried not to lose that focus.

Polls can be quite useful, unlike those silly vox pops indulged in by the Beeb. The only effect of those is to increase disillusionment over people's apparent inability to get to grips with the issues and think for themselves. Proper polls try hard to investigate a large representative sample of people with non-leading questions. Any other kind of "survey" is a waste of time. You might as well ask the punters at a racecourse whether they like horses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 05:11 AM

There is now a move afoot by MPs who object to their rights being overidden by The Fat Controller, to occupy Parliament

Meanwhile - back in La-la Land
Seizing Power in order to force though a decision arrived at by stirring race and community hatred which has so far led to an unprecedented spike in hate crimes and at least one death = democracy
The People legally turning out on the streets to protest the fact that the democratic voice has been been silenced = RIOTING
A British citizen choosing to live elsewhere other than Britain = a crime punishable by banishment apparently
Acoording to someone who has boasted of having bought two farms in The South West of Ireland
My point proven far better than I could have managed it, I think -
That's my fun for today Dave - apologies - back to the adult world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 05:14 AM

I wonder when perfectly legal ‘protest’ and ‘demonstration’ became reclassified as ‘rioting’?

And, of course, the lunatics - led by Johnson, Rees-Mogg, et al, following the instructions of the likes of the Barclay Bros and the Wrinkly Antipodean - have already taken over the asylum, and are running around with cans of petrol in preparation for burning it down.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 05:41 AM

Observe what this bunch of lying and hypocritical Tory shits were saying about prorogation just a few short weeks ago (extracted from a Guardian piece and all quotes):

During the recent Tory leadership contest, the health secretary, Matt Hancock, said the idea of suspending parliament “goes against everything those men who waded onto those beaches fought & died for – and I will not have it”.

Hancock wrote to parliament parliament on 6 June, saying that “England is the mother of all parliaments – respected as such around the free world”.

“To suspend Parliament explicitly to pursue a course of action against its wishes is not a serious policy of a prime minister in the 21st Century,” the letter said.

Amber Rudd, the work and pensions secretary, in June described the suspending of parliament as “absolutely outrageous”.

“The idea of leaving the EU to take back more control into parliament and to consider the idea of closing parliament to do that is the most extraordinary idea I’ve ever heard,” she said.

“It is a ridiculous suggestion to consider proroguing parliament. For a start it would involve approaching the Queen and nobody should consider doing that,” she said.

The now chancellor, Sajid Javid, was also vehemently opposed to shutting down parliament, during the Tory leadership campaign, saying: “You don’t deliver on democracy by trashing democracy ... we are not selecting a dictator of our country”

The international trade secretary and longtime Johnson defender Liz Truss told the BBC’s Emily Maitlis in June that the idea of suspending parliament was an “archaic manoeuvre” that Johnson had already ruled out. “He wants to bring parliament with him,” she said. She was asked: “He’s definitely ruling out proroguing or suspending parliament, is that right?” Her answer was: “That’s right.”

Staunchly pro-leave Michael Gove, now chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, was also against suspending parliament, telling the BBC’s Andrew Marr show: “I think it will be wrong for many reasons. I think it would not be true to the best traditions of British democracy”.

The culture secretary Nicky Morgan told the BBC’s Question Time programme that proroguing parliament was “clearly a mad suggestion”.

“You cannot say you are going to take back control … and then go: ‘Oh, by the way, we are just going to shut parliament down for a couple of months, so we are just going to drift out on a no deal’,” she said.

Asked in July if she would go along with a plan to suspend parliament to ensure a no-deal Brexit, Andrea Leadsom, a leading supporter of Boris Johnson, and now the business secretary, said: “No I don’t believe I would and I don’t believe it would happen.”

Don't hold your breath waiting for their resignations to flood in...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 05:41 AM

When you get a Prime Minister whose female colleagues have said they would be afraid to ride home with him in the same car, you you know the country is on the skids
British Politics has now reached the 'scraping the bottom of the barrel' level
I wish some of you fellers could be here when I go down for my newspaper in the morning - the entertainment level soars to 'That Was the Week That Was" heights when "Britain" or "Brexit" is mentioned
These morons and their arse-kissers have made Britain an International laughing-stock
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 07:26 AM

I'm not usually interested in what Tories or ex-Tories think, but I spotted this just now on Twitter from Nick Boles:

"The only person who could have tempted me to return to the Conservative fold is Ruth Davidson MSP. Her characteristically honourable and human decision removes the last significant voice of liberal, progressive conservatism from the party."

Ruth Davidson is one of those very few Tories who get me puzzling over why they're Tories at all. In the past I've had the same thoughts about Anna Soubry, Justine Greening, Sarah Wollaston and Dominic Grieve. Just musing...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 08:04 AM

Tory Whip, Lord Young has resigned from the Government
Legal challenges to suspending parliament now being considered
Lord Snooty Mogg blames it all on those who don't want to believe
A sick Joke
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 08:04 AM

Tory Whip, Lord Young has resigned from the Government
Legal challenges to suspending parliament now being considered
Lord Snooty Mogg blames it all on those who don't want to believe
A sick Joke
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 08:12 AM

Don't want to leave - of course - but believe is probably as good
This friggin' farce is unbelievably
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 08:13 AM

I heard Jake Rich-Mong pompously holding forth on BBC News this morning, something about ‘true believers’. Easy to be a ‘true believer’ when you know that ‘No Deal’ means no restrictions on your tax-dodging activities, and that your already-immense wealth is set to become even immenser!

And before Nigs and our Resident Right-Wing Troll come in to pick nits and tell me there’s no such word as ‘immenser’ - I’m fully aware, I just used it for a bit of fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 08:32 AM

37% of the electorate voted Leave. In a trade-union strike ballot, that would not have been enough to call a strike.

One rule for ‘them’, another for.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 09:03 AM

I look forward to the day, that us remainers are prepared for, when the reality of leaving the EU bites these silly ******* on the backside and they realise finally the magnitude of their stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 09:21 AM

They’ll never admit it Raggy. They’d sooner eat their own bollocks than admit they Fell for the horse-shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 09:26 AM

They'll have to admit to themselves though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 10:27 AM

Here's where we are, MkII: 37% of the electorate voted leave. Almost as many voted remain. The two issues now causing the most angst, the Irish border issue and the prospect of no-deal, were hardly on the table at all during the referendum campaign. The biggest brexit issues were simply not upfront. They were certainly not on the ballot paper. Yet now we have an UNELECTED prime minister leading a MINORITY government who thinks he has a mandate to push through a no-deal brexit, so much so that he is prepared to suspend Parliament in order to obstruct what our ELECTED representatives are elected by us to do. He has packed his cabinet with lackeys, liars (see my post of 05.41AM) and brexit ultras in order to mute his own party's opposition, knowing that almost all Tories are far more interested in protecting their own greedy, unwashed arses than in the country's interests. Well let's hope that that little "almost" will be enough to nobble him. And let's hope that the positive coalition of opposition parties that came about on Tuesday will hold.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 01:09 PM

Leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson has resigned
It seems the predictions of the break-up of the UK are coming home to roost
A senior Tory MP has stated that the rights of the people of Northern Ireland are being ignored
United we fall - eh !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 01:21 PM

Here's where we are, MkII: 37% of the electorate voted leave.
More mathermagic from either the abbacus or Hogwarts!
Here are the true results for the 50th time

Leave         17,410,742         51.89%
Remain         16,141,241         48.11%
Valid votes         33,551,983         99.92%
Invalid or blank votes         25,359         0.08%
Total votes         33,577,342         100.00%
Registered voters/turnout         46,500,001         72.21%

If you want to be taken seriously do try to check your facts!
Were you as sloppy when teaching?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 01:34 PM

Incidentlly
I have requested of the mods that if the increasingly disfunction behaviour of this individual continues he be stopped
I really see no reason whatever why we should have to put up with his continuing abusive behaviour
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 01:35 PM

”Here’s where we are, MkII. 37% of the electorate voted Leave.”

17,410,742 is 37.44% of 46,500,001.

That statement looks right to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 01:57 PM

17,410,742 is 37.44% of 46,500,001.

That statement looks right to me.
Oh Dear.

What part of the voting process do you not understand.

Those that could not be bothered to vote do not count. Democracy demands little of the electorate and casting a vote is hardly onerous

I really see no reason whatever why we should have to put up with his continuing abusive behaviour. Is that a tree in your eye?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 02:21 PM

I have made the same point over and over again, BWM. 37% of the electorate wanted us to leave. 36% wanted to stay. Of the remaining 27% no one has any idea what they wanted. The "will of the people" lie was put about by the Eton toffs, snake oil salesmen and nicotine stained spivs to fool people into thinking they were working for democracy rather than their own self interest. And some still believe them. I cannot blame those who do. The con artists have had years of practice and they are very good at it. The best we can do is just tell the truth and hope that we will eventually get the message through.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 02:55 PM

Dave, I was simply confirming the accuracy of the statement Steve Shaw has made, which you and I have no difficulty understanding - that 37% of the electorate voted Leave. That is an absolute, incontestable fact - borne out by the numbers provided by our Resident Troll himself.

Our Resident Troll seems to be getting his frillies wedged in his bum-crack on the basis of his own misunderstanding of Steve’s point.

None is so blind as he who will not see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 02:56 PM

Bugger, I’ll try that again....

Dave, I was simply confirming the accuracy of the statement Steve Shaw has made, which you and I have no difficulty understanding - that 37% of the electorate voted Leave. That is an absolute, incontestable fact - borne out by the numbers provided by our Resident Troll himself.

Our Resident Troll seems to be getting his frillies wedged in his bum-crack on the basis of his own misunderstanding of Steve’s point.

None is so blind as he who will not see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 03:11 PM

Jim, do what I've been doing. Just don't read his posts. He's getting more and more desperate for attention the more we blank him. It's the way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 03:26 PM

Or there could be a correction that 63% of the people did not vote to leave.

Where is the majority now!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Neil D
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 03:40 PM

I just spent a couple hours reading through several days of posts on this thread and want to thank the Britcatters for getting me up to speed on Brexit. We don't get much coverage of the issue here in the U.S. I saw one article regarding the suspension of Parliament (we don't use the word prorogation here), without much detail. There's very little interest here; millions of Americans don't even know the word Brexit, yet it's not like we won't be involved at some level. My understanding is that Brexiteers hope to replace potentially lost trade with Europe by signing a more favorable trade treaty with the U.S. This is something Trump will most likely embrace considering his disdain for European leaders and Boris being his long lost clone.
One general question I've long had: Is there any sentiment among Scots for a new Independence referendum and any possibility it would be allowed by Parliament? And what about Northern Ireland? I know that the populations of both countries voted against Brexit by a clear majority. I'm sure it has been a topic of discussion over there, but as I said, we get very little info about it in our media.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 04:16 PM

Good to see that Boris has the arch Spad Cummings on board. The wargaming master mind and chief of strategy. He has nothing but disdain for al politicians and told parliament to take a hike when they summoned him . Ex PM David Cameron criticised Cummings as a "career psychopath"
He is the archetypal Machiavellian manipulator who hopefully has thoroughly wargamed all the three dimensional moves the remainiacs may be pondering. Very Churchillian! Talk about having the right man in the right place at the right time.
   I might have to go and buy some of luvvie linekar's crisps to go with the popcorn while the future hopefully unfolds, rather than unravels.

After three long weary years of betrayal and endless delays and postponements finally someone has stepped up to the mark and started to carry out the clear incisive directive from the majority of the electorate. I just hope he has the dreamteam to outgun, outclass, and outmanoeuvre the whining remainiacs hellbent on defying the winners.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 04:20 PM

many of us would like england to exit from europe and leave the celtic nations as members of the EU. who knows what will happen but it's certainly a very scary and potentially devastating situation for the UK at the moment. we have suffered a right-wing coup after several years of extreme austerity where all our public services have been trashed for the benefit of the wealthy. the brexit thing is driven by the 1% who don't want to pay higher taxes as the european countries are more likely to fund their public services more generously to drive down inequality. while scotland and ireland are generally more progressive and open societies, the upper classes and older people tend to be forelock-tuggers by inclination and suspicious of foreigners. sadly, many of the folk who have been most affected by austerity are often likely to fall for the easy answers and racism of the populists in government (here as in the USA)

many of us here are horrified at the direction of our government and would welcome independence for scottish neighbours (please move the border south to include cumbria in scotland!) while a united ireland has always been a goal of progressives here. there are even hints of wales becoming more interested in splitting from westminster rule - remains to be seen what will result from the antics of the foolish, lying slob at no 10.(here as in the USA)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 04:58 PM

Why on earth would you wish that on us, Pete? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 05:11 PM

"Jim, do what I've been doing. Just don't read his posts. "
I am not responding to him Dave
If he ciontinues to behave as he is doing I will do what I have done in the past, copy all his offensive posts en masse and put them up regularly
I the Mods refuse to do anything about his behaviour I will post them directly to Max - along with the earlyied fifty odd I still have filed and ask why he is not being stopped

If he behaved at home as he does here his family would have grounds to demand a restraining order be put on him for his abusive behaviour
If a child did so at school, they would be expelled
If he behaved like this in a pub, he would be barred - and punched in the face by those he insulted
I can see no reason on earth why we should be constantly told to ignore him
This is now beyond tolerance
Sorry - enough really is enough - you handle it your way. I'll do it mine
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 05:58 PM

BREXIT is being covered well in the U.S. if you receive and watch PBS and NPR. Here in Alaska we also get some BBC television broadcast news and CBC coverage as well.

No less an American leader than Barack Obama weighed in on the subject prior to the U.K. referendum.

And the very excellent transnational John Oliver of "Last Week Tonight" has explicitly covered BREXIT and PM Boris Johnson.

But even the U.K. coverage has not been able to 'explain' the events or attempt to predict what's going to happen. It is an enormous bollux where the perps are also the judges and executors of policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 06:32 PM

I agree with your sentiment, Jim, but the bald fact is that we've ignored him beautifully now for a couple of weeks and the result is that he's got more shrill, more neurotic, more childish, more attention-seeking, more gratuitously insulting and more downright immature than ever. Just ignore him. Within a week or two he'll disappear up his own unwashed arse. Keep protesting about him online and you're giving the mods good reason to just leave him be. They may think that he's a total pain in the arse (they all do: they've all told me in private time and time again) but they're not that keen on us either. Trust me on this. We're doing really well. Ignore the silly bugger. Just remember that very few people read these threads here. Chill!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:30 AM

The Mods view everyone involved in this on-going, inter-personal feud as being exactly the same, irrespective of which ‘side’ they’re on. They make no judgment on them over their opinions, but simply on the basis of the ‘trouble’ they involve themselves in. They see no ‘goodies’ or ‘baddies’, they view everyone as trouble-making bastards who make the job of Moderation far more difficult than it should be.

The Mods’ job is difficult enough, and they do it unpaid, in their own free time.

For FUCK’S sake - JUST IGNORE THE TROLL. There’s no need for ‘rants’, or dossiers of the perceived wrongdoings of others - just IGNORE POSTS THAT ARE OBVIOUSLY INTENDED TO FLAME AND TROLL.

Otherwise, not only will this thread be closed down, but there’s a strong likelihood that the BS Section will be shut down completely.

End of Rant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:58 AM

”there’s a strong likelihood that the BS Section will be shut down completely.”

That should have been, “I would imagine there’s a strong likelihood....”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 03:49 AM

" but the bald fact is that we've ignored him beautifully now for a couple of week"
And his behaviour has got worse - and even more psychotic
Fine - we've become used to it over the years, but we are not the only ones on this forum, nor are we the only ones interested in the subject
It's all very well our slapping each others backs and agreeing - that's not discussion; it's being nodding-dogs
I don't know anything about Stanron - he's never here long enough; but I would dearly love to have a half-decent discussion with Nigel on this subject
If I were in his position, I would not with to associate my name with the behaviour of his fellow Brexiteer
If, as some of believe, he has been sent here by one of the organisations he has shown support for, he's managing to damage these discussions - his behaviour even elicited similar from one of the Mods when I complained - that cannot be right.
I'll think about your arguments and see what happens - but if he continues, I'll probably go ahead with what I propose
This enjoyable and vital (for people like me) part of the forum is being damaged
Off to get the papaer and see what Btitain's Pol-the Pot is up to today
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 03:56 AM

Compo's crowd are on the compost heap according to the Times Higher Education survey. Maybe it will help next years cabbages!
According to the survey conducted by YouthSight, Mr Corbyn has lost the support of students in what is a critical blow to his election hopes.
The student vote represented a huge part of his support but the new poll shows that among that group he has lost almost half, going from 70 percent to just 38.

The hysterical lefties are losing the plot.

Corbyn urges MPs to join Parliament shutdown protests as Momentum vow to 'occupy bridges and block roads'(That will endear him to a lot of people and be a real vote winner. White van man will not be pleased.
Another well crafted labour "shoot yourself in the foot" madcap protest.(GOOD LUCK with that one!)

The Labour MP Kate Osamor took to social media to share her anger at the decision, which Her Majesty was constitutionally required to do. She tweeted: “The Queen should look at what happened to her cousin Tino ex King of Greece when you enable a right wing coup! Monarchy abolished!” The Edmonton MP caused backlash last year when she used House of Commons headed notepaper to ask a judge not to jail her son for drug dealing.
(fine upstanding behaviour doncha think?)

Philip Pullman the Dark Materials authorhas apologised for a tweet he sent yesterday morning and said that he doesn’t ”advocate hanging Boris Johnson”. He previously tweeted: “When I hear the name ‘Boris Johnson’, for some reason the words ‘rope’ and ‘nearest lamp-post’ come to mind as well”.

It cannot be emphasized enough that no matter how much remainiacs wish to dominate on this thread,out in the real world you are a screeching minority that refuse to accept the democratic will of the majority.
Your cause has zero legitimacy, no matter how you try to clothe it.
It is time for you to accept you are a pack of losers. Live with it.
We, the majority, are getting fed up with your constant petulant whining

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM

Jim Carroll posted "It's all very well our slapping each others backs and agreeing - that's not discussion; it's being nodding-dogs"

There does seem to be a lot of that in this section of the forum. It also seems that quite a few of you enjoy this tit for tat nonsense and winding each other. I think someone earlier said they thought that a lot of the posts here were by one person using 6 or 7 different names, posting both for and against Brexit. It does seem like that at times.

In the great scheme of things not many people will be reading what is posted here. I dip in from time to time, god knows why. There is enough nonsense in all the other media without having to add to it.

I do find it amusing the way some of you interpret a simple yes/no vote to say that it is not a majority vote. According to that reasoning only 43.35% voted to remain in the EU in the 1975 vote. Should that not have counted?

This whole debacle is a sorry reflection on our current political situation. How come no one thought of cancelling the 3 weeks off for the party political conferences? They all seemed happy enough to swan off when there is still so much to sort out.

I would just like to add that I voted remain and was disappointed but not surprised by the referendum result. There was plenty of time to sort out an agreement to leave but for whatever reason both the government and the EU seemed reluctant to sort anything out.

From personal experience locally, I do not expect a second referendum to be much different. I imagine that it would be close and could go either way. The result would mean that whoever lost would be unhappy and we would just continue with this carry on.

I don't like talk of civil disobedience and violence arising from either side. I find that sort of thing distasteful. Talk is cheap but the consequences are not always so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 04:43 AM

Rain Dog
In my experience of referenda in Ireland, some of which have changed the direction of the country in ways never imagined, they were conducted responsibly and openly enough to have been said that they reached a fair decision - open debate on clearly presented facts and arguments
This was never the case with Brexit - iven the press were up in arms that there was no plan beyond "let's get out"
This is why Farage's 'Rivers of Blood' poster won hands down - with the appalling results it incited
Now the facts of what is likely to happen have been made clear (according to Gove, they have always been available), it shows that the referendum was not conducted correctly - how could a people to be asked to vote with on the basis of suppressed information ?
The divisions that Brexit will bring (and is already about) can only get worse as they begin to bit into the communities relying on work
The UK is on the brink of falling apart, the people are divided, businesses are taking their investments elsewhere (notably Rees-Mogg and Dyson), and the older industries are continuing to collapse - Shipping is all but gone, Thatcher killed of mining, wwe are buying our textiles from the poorest countries while at the same time turning away their refugees and economic migrants.

I live in Ireland and am watching a steady rise in sectarian tensions in the North - one of the legal challenges is that a Hard Brexit breaches the Good Friday Agreement
The predicted 20 years it will take to clean up the mess of Brexit in increasing every time another problem emerges

If that's what the people want - fine - what can you do other than to accept it ?
To find that out will take another vote - that is common sense democracy, but one of the prerequisites of that vote should be to remove the hate aspect that skirted on the firinges of legality last time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 04:48 AM

Incidentally
"I don't like talk of civil disobedience and violence arising from either side."
Civil disobedience seldom occurs side against side - that would be civil war
It comes about when peoples' livelihood and living conditions are eroded or when a peoples humanity is offended to the poing of them taking to the streets - like Vietnam or Apartheid
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 04:50 AM

The thing about the majority vote, Rain Dog, is that it is being described as "the will of the people". There is no doubt that the majority of those who voted, voted to leave. That is a fact. The lie is that 37% of the electorate represents "the will of the people". It doesn't. Nor should it ever have been a simple binary question. The reality is that It is far from a simple choice, as the last 3 years has shown. But, because the Cameron administration made the most monumental cock up in the history of politics, that is what we are stuck with.

What this discussion is, or should be, about is now to satisfy the will of the 37% who voted leave and the 36% who voted remain. The leave faction have demonstrated that they do not give a toss about democracy by supporting an unelected prime minister subverting parliamentary democracy for his own self gain. They have shown that their own arguments about democracy and parliamentary sovereignty are only applicable when it suits their agenda. They also prove that they could not care less about the will of almost an equal number of remainers with their "you lost, tough shit" attitude.

So, if the are not bothered about the will of 36%, do not care about democracy and are happy to have our own government subverted, then why are they using those arguments when it suits them? Hope this explains my views at least and thanks for dropping in with a civil and reasoned post.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:16 AM

A majority of one is sufficient. Playing with numbers and words cannot alter that one vital inescapable fact.
Parliament that is supposed to represent the will of the people had a number of MPs elected on a leave ticket but secretly betraying their electorate and continually voting against the clearly stated referendum outcome.
In essence Parliament, instead of representing the people, is largely in opposition to them. what side of the divide represent democracy? It always has to lie with the people. The clearly partisan speaker and the meddling of the judiciary risk creating a major constitutional crisis and civil unrest. All caused by the dishonesty and unmitigated arrogance of certain MPs. None of which is helped by an entirely ineffectual opposition party..

Churchill described a similar situation in Parliament the 30s and condemned it thus:

as being “decided only to be undecided, resolved to be irresolute, adamant for drift, solid for fluidity, all-powerful to be impotent”.

"Parliament has shown itself not to be the solution to Brexit but the problem".
Vernon Bogdanor professor of government at King’s College London

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:20 AM

Brexit boost: Scottish judge THROWS OUT Remainer bid to stop Boris suspending Parliament

The judiciary in this case wisely deciding not to get involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:30 AM

The Guardian is reporting that the first challenge to prorogation "has been thrown out." That is a rather dramatic way of putting it. The interim edict would have prevented prorogation before the full hearing, which is going ahead on the 3rd or 4th. But the prorogation cannot happen before the week of the 9th anyway, so such an order would be pointless. That may - or may not - be why the decision is as it is. I will read the full ruling when it is available.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:38 AM

It is confirmed that the judge said "I am nor satisfiedbit has been demonstrated there's a need for an interim suspension or an interimninterdict to be granted at this stage .. I'm going to move the substantive hearing forward to Tuesday."

So, as I suspected, it was all about whether an interim ban before the full hearing was needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:50 AM

Just read one of the best summaries of the situation we find ourselves in. I’m not crediting it, because it’s from Twitter (which I avoid like the plague), but reproduced byba third party on FB...

”It's like three people are diagnosed with terminal cancer, so one of them books three tickets to Dignitas so they can all go together. Doc then says it's a misdiagnosis. Two say, "We thought so ... phew, let's cancel the trip." The other says, "Nonsense, I don't believe it. I've got cancer. I know I have. I googled it myself on QuackDoctor dot com. We agreed this trip fair and square. I'm going. And you two are coming with me."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:58 AM

Dave the Gnome posted " But, because the Cameron administration made the most monumental cock up in the history of politics, that is what we are stuck with."

On that I think we can nearly all agree. The idea that people might vote to leave would appear to have never entered his head. They certainly never gave any thought as to what they would do after people had voted to leave.

Dave the Gnome posted "The leave faction have demonstrated that they do not give a toss about democracy by supporting an unelected prime minister subverting parliamentary democracy for his own self gain."

Well unelected prime ministers are not exactly new. Callaghan/Major/Brown spring to mind. I have no doubt that the situation will arise again in the future. How much Boris is doing for himself and how much he is doing for his party remains to be seen. It is always difficult to work out what he is thinking.

A mess is what we have and I do not see any easy way out of it.

Jim Carroll posted "Now the facts of what is likely to happen have been made clear (according to Gove, they have always been available), it shows that the referendum was not conducted correctly - how could a people to be asked to vote with on the basis of suppressed information ?"

I do not agree with the "suppressed information" comment. At the time of the referendum the so called debate was virtually non existent. It just came down to you either wanted to stay or leave. There were very little facts available to help in that decision. No one knew on what basis we would leave and how that would affect us. 3 years later we still don't have any agreement with the EU so we don't know what will happen. We have to prepare for the worst case scenario but it is second guessing.

We might well leave the EU without a deal, to the delight of those that want to do that, but we will still have to make deals afterwards with the EU. That is a simple fact. It would have been nice if we could do that before we leave but..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:03 AM

Backwoodsman, it might depend on whether the fares were refundable or not. Waste not want not.