BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 19 - 05:40 AM

Tony Blair SQUIRMS when shown Farage's COLOSSAL lead - 'No one WANTS second vote'
TONY BLAIR was left squirming on Sky News this morning when he was forced to confront the scale of the Brexit Party’s lead in the latest Euro election polls - and consequently face the reality that people “don’t” want a second referendum after all.

Spiffing news!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 19 - 06:06 AM

"What Brexit is all about" that merely discusses upcoming EU elections?"
Brexit opened the door to a massive rise in fascism - inevitable, as it was based on racism in the first place
I ton't expect to hear too loud shrieks of protest from Israeli supporters as the first family of French Antisemitism comes into its own - much easier to target The Labour Party
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 19 - 06:55 AM

Headline seen today:

Nigel Farage is the greatest comeback since Lazarus and May is responsible!

Not only that but he is likely to lead us to the promised land!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 19 - 07:38 AM

What a short memory people have got

Does Nigel Farage Tell Lies? Yes, Here's Five Of Them

Even more worrying

Farage and the manifesto of lies

And I've posted this before but for a bit of light relief

(I'm Gonna Tell) 500 Lies

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 19 - 08:14 AM

A REMINDER OF WHAT FARAGE'S BREXIT WAS ABOUT

As the songs says - "If hey come for me in the morning, they'll come for you in the afternoon"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 19 - 11:36 AM

The frightening thing about all this is, out of them all, May is a 'moderate'
The Conservative Party has been hovering on the brink of fascism since the heady days of Powell's 'Rivers of Blood', followed later by Thatcher's climbing into bed with Pinochet
Now you have Boris of Very Little Brain and Lord Snooty waiting in the wings
The somewhat limp-wristed Toryism of our own Nigel, with its willingness to let slide what is happening in their Party is a prime example of moderate Toryism.
Fuhrer Farage doesn't bear thinking about - but it needs to be
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 May 19 - 11:56 AM

tories have never had the bottle or ability to stand up to the even further right in their own party and the way they dealt with the nutters and fascists around ukip and beyond was nothing short of appeasement. sadly, the labour party are equally clueless in dealing with the thoroughly nasty extremists in the tory party and their loud and aggressive friends who find farage a bit wet these days. it's all very scary.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 May 19 - 11:56 AM

Richard Epstein is not "a respected academic". His affiliation is given as "New York University", which you might think was a major academic institution in New York, but it isn't, the main universities in New York are the State University of New York, the City University of New York, and Cornell University and Columbia University, which are of course Ivy League, and the most prestigious. New York University is a "Non-Sectarian Private College".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 May 19 - 12:30 PM

There was a beautiful moment on Politics Live today. Lord Adonis was there to promote a second referendum. You know."You got the first vote wrong so do it again" sort of thing. In a subsequent subject, a Labour Council ignored residents requests to restore a public clock. At the last election the council became independent and the clock was restored. One of the panelists criticised Labour for not listening to the voters. Lord Adonis, who is a Labour peer, praised how Labour always listens to the voters. I'm surprised the rest of the panel didn't fall of their seats laughing. "You got the first vote wrong so do it again".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 19 - 12:40 PM

Jon Crace report on a Brexit Party event

Crace normal writes tongue in cheek critiques of ministers. There is no attempt at humour in this. And even Iains will agree with tha last sentence of the article (ie excluding the generic postscript)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 May 19 - 01:21 PM

@ DMcG   I assume you mean (And Westminster ought to be s**t-scared.)

Indeed they should. To run with the hares and hunt with the hounds will always end in tears.

Cameron said the people must decide. They did with a referendum!
Article 50 was passed with a huge majority.
A General Election was called with both parties advocating leave as the mainstay of their ticket.

Since that time a majority in the house have tried to frustrate brexit and destroy democracy.

Both leavers and remainers feel very strongly that Parliament is willfully denying the wishes of the electorate. As recent polls show very clearly the backlash against the two main parties is gathering strength daily. It has now gone beyond simply brexit and the behaviour of both Labour and the Tories is regarded as an affront to democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 May 19 - 01:39 PM

Parliament represents the interests of the electorate, not their wishes, and definitely not the wishes of an electorate three years ago, wilfully misinformed by the leave supporting politicians and the sewer press. Parliament has enough data, from the scenario assessments carried out by the government themselves (but hidden in so far as they can) to work out that remaining in the EU is in the best interests of the majority. So remain they should.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 19 - 01:48 PM

A reminder of what Thatcher was being defensive about
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/tories-have-forgotten-that-thatcher-wasnt-just-a-terrorist-sympathiser-but-close-friends-with-one-10507850.html

THATCHER'S TAKE ON DEMOCRACY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 May 19 - 02:16 PM

As I was emphasing the difference between being mistaken and lying, and said you were NOT lying, that is a bit of an over reaction, don't you think, Nigel?
Whether you were claiming I was lying, or that I was mistaken, is beside the point, as you were referring to a statement which I never made.
That is an excellent example of a straw man fallacy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 19 - 02:45 PM

Well, think that if you like, Nigel. But for example you said

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 14 Nov 18 - 06:12 AM

Yep,
Accept that we are never going to reach an agreed settlement with the EU, and use the remaining 4 months to plan for leaving on WTO terms.


Four months after November 2018? Ah yes, the end of March 2019. It is no great leap to believe your statement of 23 December, about 4 weeks later, was referring to the same date. And then, a little while later (12 Jan 2019) I also suggested your prediction was for that date, and whether you overlooked that post or chose not to reply, you did not correct me then.

So while I say for the third time I accept you did not explicitly give both halves of the prediction at the same time, you did tie leaving on WTO rules and the date together a few weeks earlier, so it is not unreasonable to consider you still had that date in mind for the prediction. Certainly, you gave not the slightest hint against it.

That's all I have to say on this. Shall we agree to move onto actual events to do with Brexit, shall we?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 May 19 - 03:35 PM

There was a beautiful moment on Politics Live today. Lord Adonis was there to promote a second referendum. You know."You got the first vote wrong so do it again" sort of thing. In a subsequent subject, a Labour Council ignored residents requests to restore a public clock. At the last election the council became independent and the clock was restored. One of the panelists criticised Labour for not listening to the voters. Lord Adonis, who is a Labour peer, praised how Labour always listens to the voters. I'm surprised the rest of the panel didn't fall of their seats laughing. "You got the first vote wrong so do it again".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 19 - 03:22 AM

It seems Olly Robbins is off to Brussels again today about "how the broad outline of the future arrangement between the EU and the UK could be changed if there were to be some kind of deal" (in the words of Laura Kuenssberg.)

The future arrangements are defined by the political declaration attached to the Withdrawal Agreement and are not legally binding. That would not matter so much if both sides committed to them in good faith. But since the UK side has possible May replacements who openly declare they do not agree with what it says, it is hard to see the value of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 May 19 - 04:54 AM

To call it a deal is a misnomer. It is a treaty loosely labelled a Withdrawal Agreement comprising 585 pages.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/draft_withdrawal_agreement_0.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 06:59 AM

"You know."You got the first vote wrong so do it again"
No - we mean "we voted for this without being given any game plan for the future - now that we know what is likely to happen - and is already happening (like the financiers and promoters of Brexit tripping over themselves to put their investments in a safer place than a Brexited Britain) we would like an opportunity to confirm the decision"
Great that those with the money can change their minds, but the voters are not given a chance to.
Leaving Europe,as things stand, is comparable to a had-done-by teenager declaring they are leaving home
As many of them end up on the streets, there's a valuable lesson to le learned there.
I don't expect for one moment that Stan the Man will respond to any of this - much more comfortable not to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 May 19 - 07:25 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: Leaving Europe,as things stand, is comparable to a had-done-by teenager declaring they are leaving home
As many of them end up on the streets, there's a valuable lesson to le learned there.

More merriment! To extend your analogy the hard done by teenagers are the second largest financial contributor in a household of twenty seven. Something like 87% of UK businesses do NOT trade with the EU. They will keep on trading whatever happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 19 - 08:31 AM

Even if it is true that 87% businesses do not trade with the EU, it does not follow that they do not depend on EU trade. Many of them have customers who can only afford to buy their goods/services because they are employed by businesses that do trade with the EU, or the 87% may buy products from wholesalers who trade with the EU.   It is a statistic that is easily misunderstood by the unwary.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 May 19 - 09:45 AM

DMcG wrote: Many of them have customers who can only afford to buy their goods/services because they are employed by businesses that do trade with the EU, or the 87% may buy products from wholesalers who trade with the EU.

A fair point, and one of which I was not unaware. I was sort of hoping that JC would make that point and I could then point out that he said Britain no longer has any industry. Ho hum.

Untangling ourselves from the EU was always likely to have a cost. What you, I or anyone else, can predict is the cost that we will incur if we do not extricate ourselves from what I see as a sinking ship. It's not just leaving that will cost us. Staying could cost us a lot more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 19 - 11:08 AM

It's not just leaving that will cost us. Staying could cost us a lot more.

We know what leaving will cost us and it is not just financial. The cost of staying will be the same as it is now. Anything else is just speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 May 19 - 11:18 AM

Dave the Gnome wrote: The cost of staying will be the same as it is now. Anything else is just speculation.

Saying that is also speculation. You speculate that the EU is not a sinking ship. I don't. However, even If the ship is not about to sink, The EU costs us every year. If we stay in long enough it must eventually cost us more than leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 11:26 AM

Any rise in 'Leave' is obviously being brought about by battle-fatigue - there are no advantages to leaving as requests for examples here have shown over and over again
If Dyson and Lord Snooty sprint off and stick their money elsewhere that is either a sign that they are aware of the damage being done or a shoddy grasp of investment

A SIGN OF THE TIMES

Seems far more cleared than following the lemmings
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 19 - 11:43 AM

The EU costs us every year. If we stay in long enough it must eventually cost us more than leaving.

That does not follow. The cost/benefit in terms of trade are recurring and the costs of leaving you are referring to are off-off. It is certainly possible that we cannot negotiate as good a trade deal with a major player as we have through the EU - and I think we must all agree that our negotiation skills so far have not been brilliant - in which case we would make a nominal loss every year, rather than the nominal improvement that would be needed to clear the 'cost of leaving.'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 May 19 - 11:43 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 14 May 19 - 06:59 AM

"You know."You got the first vote wrong so do it again"
No - we mean "we voted for this without being given any game plan for the future - now that we know what is likely to happen - and is already happening (like the financiers and promoters of Brexit tripping over themselves to put their investments in a safer place than a Brexited Britain) we would like an opportunity to confirm the decision"

It can be difficult finding the meaning in some posts, but, assuming that the we shown above means "people including me(the writer)", does that mean that Jim voted Brexit? If not, how does he know what we mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 12:31 PM

" "people including me(the writer)","
Does it matter Nigel ?
The principle of allowing anybody to re-vote when certain facts are revealed that were not available previously is basic democracy and simple common sense
Only lemmings plough on regardless as they watch their mates fall to their deaths
It makes little difference to me personally - Ireland will remain in Europe and, if it becomes necessary, I will dig up my family history and become an Irish citizenship
Sanron, fr some odd reason, mentions the level of investment in Europe, as if it had anything to do with whart is being discussed here
Brexit has already destabilised the British Economy and is hurting large numbers of British people - the warning from the economists that Brexit would make it impossible to plan for at least 20 years has already become an widely accepted fact

Lord Snooty has moved his money to Ireland and arch Brexiteer Dyson has shifted his to Singapore - pity Britain isn't fitted with the discs I used to see on ships cables to control the movement of rats
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 May 19 - 01:32 PM

I had a stunning conversation with a cabbage earlier in the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 May 19 - 01:41 PM

Didn’t know that cabbages and turnips speak the same language...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 01:42 PM

I'm still having one
No matter how obediently you people choose to doff your caps, the fact remains that these bastards have pushed Britain into destabilisation and pissed off while the people are not even given the opportunity to back out now the crassness of Brexit has become obvious
Amazing what money can buy - innit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 02:32 PM

"Didn’t know that cabbages and turnips speak the same language..."
You've been talking to 'is 'ighness Chas again, haven't you ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 May 19 - 02:42 PM

Brexit has already destabilised the British Economy and is hurting large numbers of British people - the warning from the economists that Brexit would make it impossible to plan for at least 20 years has already become an widely accepted fact
Brexit hasn't happened, so it cannot have destabilised anything. Fear brought on by the result of the referendum may have, but that is not the same thing.
More 'Project Fear'.
Is it worth pointing out that a supposition is not the same as a fact?
Or that the term 'widely accepted fact' is one only used by those who don't understand the word 'fact'?
A fact is something that is true. It is not something for which the validity changes depending on how widely it is accepted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 02:57 PM

"Brexit hasn't happened, so it cannot have destabilised anything. "
The decision to leave Europe set in motion shock waves that made it obvious that things could only get worse
You start to leave when you head for the door, not when you shut it behind you Nigel
These are no longer 'predictions'
Why will you people not admit that it will take at least a decade to put right the damage that has already been done - that's if things don't get any worse
You want facts - go talk to the employers of Bombardier, all all the other firms that have done a runner
Thhe sick thing about all this is that Britain bunged the sectarian Party that is steering Northern Ireland out of Europe despite the hardship being experienced by the Northern Irish people - money and bigotry - a killer combination
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 May 19 - 03:47 PM

The claim:
The decision to leave Europe set in motion shock waves that made it obvious that things could only get worse

The reality:
New figures released by the ONS this morning reveal that wages continued to rise above inflation from January to March, despite the quarter having been expected to end with the UK leaving the EU. Excluding bonuses, employees have seen wages rise by 3.3%, an inflation adjusted rise of 1.5% compared with a year earlier…

Meanwhile the UK employment rate was estimated at 76.1% rising from last year’s 75.6% and the joint-highest figure ever recorded. Unemployment has continued to fall, now at 3.8% it’s the lowest this country has seen since 1974. All despite Brexit…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 04:05 PM

Urtter out of Context bollocks
British industry has already been set back several years w=ith shits like Dyson and teh rest elsewhere taing their work elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 May 19 - 04:40 PM

Strange things figures.

Employment rate 76.1%
Unemployment rate 3.8%

Now to me that's a total of 79.9%

So are the other 20.1% unemployed but not receiving benefits, do they exist at all, are they figures of someone imagination.

I suspect it's the former of those options.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 May 19 - 04:51 PM

UK wages rise again as employment rate stays at record high says ...
City A.M.-12 hours ago
... employment rate stays at record high says Office for National Statistics ... year when adjusting for inflation, the Office for National Statistics said today. ... when you could hire an extra worker and get broadly the same result?”.
Unemployment falls by 65000 but millions of workers remain in poverty
The Independent-10 hours ago
UK unemployment rate hits 45-year low
FRANCE 24-9 hours ago
UK employment remains at record high
Moneywise Magazine-8 hours ago
British unemployment rate hits 45-year low

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 May 19 - 05:25 PM

Raggytash wrote: So are the other 20.1% unemployed but not receiving benefits, do they exist at all, are they figures of someone imagination.

Raggytash, I'm 72 years old. I'm not employed. I'm not unemployed. I'm retired. Take everyone between the ages of 0 and 15 years old. They are not unemployed and they are not employed. They are too young. Do you think that underaged and retired do not add up to 20.1%. What about the ladies who don't work but manage the house, do the laundrey and look after the kids?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 May 19 - 06:06 PM

Stanron, you are not included in the figures. It's as simple as that. You are past retirement age.

Children are not included in the figures because they haven't reached the age were they can, legally, be employed.

As for your suggestion that women are too occupied cleaning, washing and ironing etc betrays your age.

May I remind you we are living in the 21st Century ............ although some people of here seem to consider we still live in the Victorian era.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 03:35 AM

Where are all these people who are losing their jobs as firms close down suddenly managing to find them - Sainsburys hasn't got that many shelves needing stacking

We find that Brexit has been an important source of uncertainty for many UK businesses. We estimate that this led to a 6% reduction in investment in the first two years after the referendum, with employment also around 1.5% lower. And Brexit is likely to reduce future UK productivity by around half a percentage point via a batting average effect of output being reallocated away from higher productivity firms toward lower productivity ones. The majority of businesses anticipate that Brexit will eventually reduce sales and increase costs.
DETAILED BUSINESS STUDY HERE

THIS CONTINUES TO BE THE TREND IN BRITAIN

All this is a diversion anyway
'Patriots' like Dyson and Rees Mogg have advocated for and are pushing through Brexit while, having realised the realities of the above statements, have removed their money from Britain and have put it in a safer place
Those who are worst affected have no option but to bite the bullet and bear the brunt of the negative effects
It should be their right to confirm they wish to do so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 04:23 AM

Nuts in May

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:18 AM

Good intelligent answer Stan - for a Tory
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:32 AM

very little point in trying to make a factual statement if the entire argument is predicated on "We estimate"

While accepting the Nobel prize for economics, Friedrich Hayek made an astonishing admission. Not only were economists unsure about their predictions, he noted, but their tendency to present their findings with the certainty of the language of science was misleading and “may have deplorable effects”.

Prakash Loungani at the IMF analysed the accuracy of economic forecasters and found something remarkable and worrying. “The record of failure to predict recessions is virtually unblemished,” he said.

His analysis revealed that economists had failed to predict 148 of the past 150 recessions

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:50 AM

You know we are having EU elections later this month to elect those so called unelected bureaucrats that run our economy? Can anyone tell me when the next WTO elections are?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:51 AM

Oh, and 2000!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:59 AM

The Brexit Party has today passed its goal of 100,000 people having signed up as registered supporters of the party, paying £25 each. That’s £2,500,000 raised in small donations in the course of just four weeks since the party launched. Expect the 100,000 members figure to be officially confirmed later today. Meanwhile Change UK have refused to reveal any information about donations they have received over the last two months…

The Tory Party last month revealed it has reached 150,000 members for the first time in almost a decade, but then promptly complained about it. If the Brexit Party continue their trajectory they’ll overtake the Tories in just over two weeks…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 07:27 AM

Very little point in discussing facts with someone who describes a report which is headed "Brexit is Already Affecting Britain as "We Estimate"
The facts stand - Businessmen like arch Brexiteer, Dyson have spotted the signs and done a runner, leaving those with no alternative to face the consequences
It seems Stanton has opted for sneering and pissed off along with Nigel

"Friedrich Hayek" died in 1950 - a fine source of information on 21st century economists - pity he didn't quote Jeremy Bentham - most people have heard of him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 07:58 AM

We find that Brexit has been an important source of uncertainty for many UK businesses We estimate that this led to a 6% reduction in investment in the first two years after the referendum, .................
Estimates are estimates, facts are facts, LIES are lies (as below)
Dyson have spotted the signs and done a runner
Care to explain how Dyson is the third largest individual taxpayer in the UK?

or will you simply agitate to have my post deleted as when facts become uncomfortable for remainiacs?

Never mind! Delete for all you are worth. The upcoming elections will demonstrate the unambiguous truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 08:34 AM

"Care to explain how Dyson is the third largest individual taxpayer in the UK?"
Care to explain how his opissing off with his jobs has helped Britain in its time of need ?
No? - thought not!!
He has made his money out of Britain and has quite rightly, paid his taxes - as any other British citizen should - why should he be special for having done what he is obliged to do by law ?
Now he's fucked off and abandoned the consequences he and his like have brought on the heads of the British people
Delete - what does that mean ?
The upcoming elections - are you actually predicting after pouring contempt on experts predicting things ?
"very little point in trying to make a factual statement if the entire argument is predicated on "We estimate""
You really are not very good at this are you ?
Jim Carroll