BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 01:01 PM

I don't agree with giving 16/17 year olds the vote. Some of them are level-headed, but have little experience of life. They will still be guided by their teachers.
As the school leaving age has been increased they will not be out earning their keep (generally speaking).
Just as American colonists believed in "No taxation without representation" I believe there should be no representation without taxation. (with certain caveats for those who, due to age/infirmity, are unable to work)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 12:10 PM

Interesting that Labour want to give the vote to 16/17 year olds. It would follow on that if adult enough to vote, then also old enough to be tried as an adult, go in a bar, and serve on the front line. Or are there degrees of adulthood?
In a similar vein certain luvvies have been advocating withdrawing the vote from those of 70+ years. That would thin out the ranks of the "righteous" that bombast their way along on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM

We should have realised what BoJo was when he was running for PM. The anagram of dead in a ditch is candidate hid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 10:38 AM

Should have said - the Brexit extension has now been put back to 31st January
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 09:05 AM

New word in the Brexit Dictionary (Brixionary maybe?) FLEXTENSION
Wonder if Johnson's chosen which ditch to be found dead in yet?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 04:22 AM

" Blair is saying we will just have to make the best of it"
Blair is a Tory in drag and doesn't speak for anybody but the sell-out has-beens that sold out the Labour Party
Kate Hooey is typical of Blair's sell-out mob - anyone prepared to share a campaign with Reichstagmeister Robinson is unworthy of serious consideration
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:56 AM

Incidentally, over on one of the media's Have Your Say areas, a Brexiteer was arguing that if the Government chose to change things so that people had no leave entitlement at all, it should be able to - it was nothing to do with the EU. While I do not agree, there is a refreshing honesty to that that is usually lacking. And is certainly lacking in the Government's stance that such a thing could never come about by any government ever.

(Some may argue that because such a Government would be going against what people wanted. These are by and large the same people saying Parliament is defying their 'will' at the moment)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:13 AM

This is an example of one of the great falsehoods of Brexit. I must have heard that Remainers do not accept the result of the Referendum a thousand times. But by and large we do. We think it mistaken and if the opportunity did arise we would try to reverse it, but almost all of us accept we are leaving at some time in some fashion. And, as we are patriotic (whether you agree of not), we want to do that with the least damage to the country, its businesses and its citizens as we can. Where we differ most from Brexiteers is how that is achieved. To take the question of workers rights: Johnson's team is reported to be pleased it has removed those from the legally binding section into that part that is not. You get ministers arguing that they have no intention of reducing workers rights and indeed in the Queen's speech proclaimed they would improve them. That is irrelevant. They have made it possible that *some* future government could slash them. Whether they 'intend' to or not is mere sleight of hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 06:53 PM

Well I wouldn't normally recommend that anyone should resort to the far-right Daily Express (way back in the sixties my dad called it the Daily Liar), but Blair is saying we will just have to make the best of it if we do end up leaving the EU, which is, as even that article makes clear, the last thing he wants. He sez that it would be like a top-six Premier League team suddenly being relegated to the Championship (the old Division Two to you non-footie types). Don't be misled. Put a clothes peg on your nose, read the Express piece for yourself and see what Blair ACTUALLY said. Then we can properly talk about it, if we want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 03:02 PM

Tony Blair stuns Remainers after admitting British trade deals will flourish outside EU
FORMER Prime Minister Tony Blair has stunned his fellow Remainers by admitting that the British economy will continue to flourish even after Brexit - and even urging Remainers to "make the best of it".
By Oli Smith (so it must be correct)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 02:21 PM

And a very truthful warning in the Times today from The Archbishop of Canterbury, warning our unelected Prime Minister that his ‘inflammatory language’ is ‘pouring petrol on Britain’s divisions over Brexit’.

Of course he is - ‘divide and rule’ is a long-time tried-and-trusted tactic of the clueless Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 08:17 AM

Sadly if there is rot right at the top it will continue to spread downwards until it is removed. The sooner that Johnson here and Trump over in the States are brought to task over their misdeeds, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 08:00 AM

Absolute required reading, John. I'd love to see any brexiteer here attempting to dissect that piece and refuting any part of it. As ever, we can expect a different approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 07:01 AM

There’s a very interesting piece in today’s Guardian, regarding the undermining of our politics by Johnson’s chicanery.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 02:22 PM

What was all that bollocks about ‘Take Back Control’ the Brexit-Bunch kept waffling on about during the Referendum...??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 06:01 AM

Anguilla was discussed in Parliament at some length back in early 2017, I think. It has specific problems. There is no airport on the island, so it has 'piggy-backed' off Princess Julianna International Airport, in Sint Maarten, which is in the territory of the Netherlands. It then crosses a border into French Saint Martin. (There is an airport on the French side of the island, in the French Collectivity of Saint Martin, called Aéroport de Grand Case or L'Espérance Airport, but this is used for regional flights.)

From there, goods are transported by ship to Anguilla itself, so it will be crossing a second border.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 05:40 AM

AS I think most of you know, I try to read through as many of the relevant documents as I can, rather than base my views on comments from intermediaries. So I am working my way through Johnson's version of the Withdrawal Agreement.

It is not easy, as it is forever referring to other documents, like this:
With regard to nationals of third countries who fulfil the conditions of Regulation (EC) No 859/2003, as well as their family members or survivors within the scope of this Title, the references to Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 and Regulation (EC) No 987/2009 in this Title shall be understood as references to Council Regulation (EEC) No 1408/711 and Council Regulation (EEC) No 574/722 respectively. References to specific provisions of Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 and Regulation (EC) No 987/2009 shall be understood as references to the corresponding provisions of Regulation (EEC) No 1408/71 and Regulation (EEC) No 574/72

Well, yes, I thought so too …

Anyway, I am far from through it. But it is worth pointing out that Northern Ireland is far from the only place where special considerations apply. It lists :

Anguilla, Bermuda, British Antarctic Territory, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Montserrat, Pitcairn, Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, and Turks and Caicos Islands.


Article 18 - which is as far as I had got before deciding to post this - is talking about the 'Issuance of residence document', which is of course central in many respects: having a right of residence unlocks lots of other rights. This looks to me a Windrush scandal in the making, specifying as it does some of the documents needed to convince the authorities you have a right of residence. For example:


for cases other than those set out in points (k), (l) and (m), the host State shall not require applicants to present supporting documents that go beyond what is strictly necessary and proportionate to provide evidence that the conditions relating to the right of residence under this Title have been fulfilled;

Warm words, but who decides whether requiring a particular document goes beyond 'what is strictly necessary'?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 03:22 PM

To those deluded people who think that Labour's brexit policy still isn't crystal clear (which it is), get a load of this, all from stressed-out Tories (and from today's Guardian):

"Even Conservative supporters of Johnson remained baffled on Friday by the prime minister’s sudden U-turn on his Brexit deal earlier in the week, when he decided to pause it rather than allow more time to debate the legislation.

One minister told the Guardian that the views among colleagues was 'No 10 has been churlish', while a backbench MP said the strategy emerging from Downing Street was “very confused' and 'out of control'.

Keith Simpson, Conservative MP for Broadland, described the 'floundering in No 10 as worthy of Baldrick in Blackadder', adding: 'The problem is that circumstances beyond [Boris Johnson’s] control and things he has done has made October 31 almost impossible and I think what he’s decided to do – supported by most, but not all of the cabinet – of trying to have a vote on a general election looks as though it’s part of the people versus parliament but I think it’s quite a risky strategy.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 10:54 AM

The latest tactic is to make magic grandad repeatedly refuse an election. It is quite a cunning ruse. Each time he refuses Labour haemorrhages more support from it's heartlands.
Macron is not too happy about yet another extension and conservatives are leading in the polls.
Whenever this impasse is resolved Labour will be eviscerated.

Of course as we come up to the wire we may yet find the Ben act suffers a fatal flaw(after all it was rushed through without any attention to detail) Yet remainiacs argue that after three years they still need time to study the withdrawal treaty(brino)
Will they rue the day and be hoist with their own petard, or do we need another Guy Fawkes? Interesting times!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 09:12 AM

It looks like Johnson is even making some Tories nervous with his dishonest election gambit. From the Guardian (who don't name their source):

An MP from the centre of the parliamentary [Conservative] party said the move was a “smoke and mirrors” trap that was meant to fail and anticipated that Labour would reject an election. However, it could easily backfire with some liberal voters, the MP said.

“This latest move is not intended to be a successful bid for an election. If it was going to be successful, at least 30 of my colleagues would vote against it,” the MP added. “I worry that the public will look at the government and say, 'Why on earth are they farting about and trying to ruin my Christmas with an election when they have just won a vote on the Brexit bill? Where have they found these six weeks for an election when they don’t have time to discuss Brexit legislation?’

“The miscalculation here is that the PM might be popular, but he is not trusted. And this manoeuvre, if the public don’t buy it as genuine, might reinforce the impression that he is sneaky, untrustworthy and too clever by half.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 08:43 AM

From the Guardian live blog:

"Some MPs have expressed concern that once Parliament has been dissolved, the Prime Minister could postpone the election date until after the end of the Brexit extension period, at which point the UK would leave the EU with nothing MPs could do to prevent it."

I note that the LibDems don't seem as keen on a snap election as I'd said earlier on. The obstinate possibility of no-deal, combined with the utter untrustworthiness of Johnson, is a powerful and sobering mix. His attempt to bully MPs into consenting to an election is utterly pointless. We need a general election, not a brexit election. We won't get that until brexit is resolved one way or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 07:01 AM

...the most responsible one. Fat finger syndrome.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 06:59 AM

Excellent leader in The Guardian. Extracts:

Boris Johnson is the playground bully of British politics. He acts as if he is prime minister with a majority in parliament when in fact he has no majority. Because he cannot govern in that way with parliament, he has tried instead to govern against parliament. The delusion that he can do as he pleases led him to try to prorogue parliament this autumn – a bluff that was called by the supreme court. It then led him to concoct a fantasy legislative agenda by commissioning a Queen’s speech, though none of its measures will ever become law. Now he is trying to make his Brexit withdrawal bill conditional on the Commons agreeing to a general election in December. This proposal, like all the others before it, is merely another bluff, and parliament should duly call it...

...Mr Johnson’s Thursday gambit should not be accepted. There is no pressing need for a general election until parliament has resolved its position on Brexit, if necessary by amending the withdrawal agreement bill. That may be only a few sitting days away. But Mr Johnson has absolutely no right to hold a gun to parliament’s head in the meantime. It is for parliament, as a whole, to make a decision about a general election once the core business of this parliament, Brexit, is completed. That time is not now. MPs should insist on doing first things first.

And Corbyn is the one leader who is insisting that there must be no chance of no-deal before consent is given for an election. The SNP have their own agenda. They want an election now if not sooner because they know that they'll wipe out the Tories in Scotland and that brexit will strengthen their hand in getting an independence referendum. The LibDems want an election because they calculate that they'll get more seats than last time and will probably hold the balance of power. In my view, Labour's position is by far the. OST responsible one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 05:54 AM

Funny how Corbyn can be worse than useless and manage to destroy the plans of the greased albino piglet at the same time.

I am happy with his plans to negotiate a deal and then put the final decision on its acceptability to the country. Not sure about his moving towards PR. Do we really want a permanent hung parliament with the kind of populist nutters we have seen of late having any say in the real world?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 04:02 AM

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7611391/Violence-against-MPs-price-worth-paying-way-Brexit-say-majority-sides.html

Patience is evaporating on both sides of the divide.
I blame it on magic grandad, his only policy is prevarication. He does not have a policy on brexit. Even internal labour documents admit he will lose 100 seats in an election.

An election is coming , the turkeys are getting fat
Let's have a voting slip and make remainiacs scat
..............

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 02:27 AM

"Mr Johnson offered to allow MPs extra time to debate and ratify his Brexit deal by 6 November if they approved the UK’s first December election in almost 100 years. But aides said he would pull the Withdrawal Agreement Bill altogether if they refuse."

Once again, the 'master strategy' is painful in its simplicity. If there is no GE, the Government will pull the bill and so there will be no Brexit debate until - let us suppose - the end of January. Faced with determined inaction, they hope the EU will decide there is no value in another extension and we get to 'no deal'. Not on 31st October, of course, but I am sure Nigel and co will find a way of saying that is compatible with Johnson's promises.

This relies on Parliament being unable to take control again via an SO24 or similar, and that relies on who is Speaker. If Bercow found a way of staying on, there would definitely be SO24s permitted. It is not so clear how the alternatives would behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:59 PM

Thank you, Dave! It seems that you and I I agree that we don't need to bother with either the vexatious or the trolls...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:35 PM

Nigel, when the only arguments you can come up with are on semantics it is obvious that your arsenal is depleted. Everyone else understands what Steve is on about. Your antics are both boring and trite.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:07 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:46 PM

I don't like to be called a liar if you don't mind.

A second request from me to read my posts properly. Perhaps you'll take note of the words surrounding your quoted bit and take them as context. 'Nuff from me on this. Either contribute to the conversation, which you've hardly been doing at all, or just butt out, Nigel.

I read your comments (as quoted) within the context in which you gave them. They are clearly contradictory.
I did not call you a liar. I asked Is Steve Shaw just ignorant of the statements he's making? Or is he just a serial liar?
I will accept that you're just ignorant, although you have previously admitted to being a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 05:38 PM

Just watching the local news. A Dewsbury councillor's home has been targeted in a firebomb attack. Luckily only the cars were torched and no one was hurt. He is a Labour councillor of Asian ethnicity. Any bets being taken on the motive?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 04:23 PM

Let's move on here, Raggytash. Let's talk to people who actually have something to say!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 03:48 PM

We can only go by what you say. It is up to you to make sure the words you use say what you mean!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:46 PM

I don't like to be called a liar if you don't mind.

A second request from me to read my posts properly. Perhaps you'll take note of the words surrounding your quoted bit and take them as context. 'Nuff from me on this. Either contribute to the conversation, which you've hardly been doing at all, or just butt out, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:45 PM

Nigel, stop buggering about. Laws bind a government until such time as they change the law.

Until that point they are bound by the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:37 PM

Nothing I've said has contradicted other things I've said.

Motions can't bind a future government but laws can

I'm perfectly aware that parliament can overturn laws made by previous administrations.

Is Steve Shaw just ignorant of the statements he's making? Or is he just a serial liar?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:23 PM

I agree DMcG. Labour should hold until all the shit is firmly on the shoulders of the serial liar known as BoJo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:22 PM

junta
a military or political group that rules a country after taking power by force.

Oh Dear!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:18 PM

"Aiming for it, but I don't think Labour will give them it. I could be wrong of course."
A Labour woman said that her party would oppose any election until the Brexit guarantees are confirmed - they will then campaign for another referendum
I'm not sure she was speaking for the Party
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:01 PM

Aiming for it, but I don't think Labour will give them it. I could be wrong of course.

Johnson's offer is to give time for the second reading, but the price is to vote for GE. Hello? Are you saying if they don't vote for a GE you won't debate the second reading?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 12:36 PM

Johnson's Junta is aiming for a General Election of 12th December
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 12:25 PM

Who got re elected to Parliament on a leave ticket and ever since have betrayed their constituents?

Why not be honest and ask the questions that matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 11:45 AM

Always worth asking a couple of questions when people forget who caused the problem and why Labour are quite right to make the culprits clean up their own mess before we can progress.

Who had an overall majority in parliament when the referendum was called?

Who had an overall majority in parliament when it was decided to ignore that the referendum was only advisory?

Who had an overall majority in parliament when article 50 was approved?

Who had an overall majority in parliament when a general election was called that resulted in a hung parliament?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 09:00 AM

It would perhaps help if correspondents here read posts more carefully. Nothing I've said has contradicted other things I've said. As I've amply demonstrated here, that's the territory of the prime minister you love so much. Anyone spotted his ample belly up in a ditch yet, by the way?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 07:54 AM

The Labour party would be so proud.

As they struggle to count their 100 seat projected loss in a general election.
Magic grandad is a stunner!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 07:15 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:46 PM
Motions can't bind a future government but laws can

Then:

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:03 AM
I'm perfectly aware that parliament can overturn laws made by previous administrations. But at least that has to be done openly in both Houses.


Is this a record for the time taken to turn through 180 degrees in ones view? The Labour party would be so proud.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:52 AM

Motions can't bind a future government but laws can.

Absolute rubbish! Are you trying to say that laws on hanging are still extant, for example?
Perhaps you are confusing laws with treaties, and even they can be subject to cancellation/ revision.
The Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (VCLT)has not been signed by all countries.(France and Norway for example)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:04 AM

Some bad tense work there...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:03 AM

I'm perfectly aware that parliament can overturn laws made by previous administrations. But at least that has to be done openly in both Houses. That's a lot different from sneaking in no-deal by default. And it's a lot different from accepting promises and reassurances about no-deal from this most dishonest and disreputable of prime ministers. You know, the man who told us this week that MPs had "approved the deal" when all they'd done is approved the second reading of the bill to put the deal into law, not the deal itself, and the man who said there would be no checks on goods between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, and the man who said that the Scottish Parliament has no role in approving the deal...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:47 PM

Similarly if a law was enshrined that there could be no leaving under WTO terms, an incoming government (if it had a majority) could merely overturn that law.

I think that is overlooking the difference between domestic law and international treaties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:46 PM

Motions can't bind a future government but laws can. The reason why the opposition won't give Johnson his election (apart from the stupid law his fellow Tory Cameron brought in) is that, sensibly, they want no-deal to be guaranteed to not happen. Your man can't be trusted. We want a pledge that there can not be no-deal at the end of 2020. If your man wins an election, that is precisely what he'll do and you know it. Well we're not having it. It is nothing to do with being frit, and if you shed your tribalism for a minute and got honest for a refreshing change you'd admit it.