BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:55 AM

And that, my darlings, was post no. 1066.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:45 AM

This BBC report from about half an hour ago sheds a bit more light. Sort of. A little.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47579033

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d432e7a81b83c24fbadf2c94f9e9535a3dd1500c387028be3d06996de64ad150.jpg?w=600&h=261

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM

I think Bercow will have to allow MV3 - it's encoded in the motion that passed yesterday. This from the Guardian at lunchtime Thursday 14th, i.e. before the results were decided:

> Parliament will vote on a motion that sets next Wednesday as the deadline for MPs to pass a Brexit deal. If a deal is passed by then, the government will seek an extension of article 50 until 30 June. But if the deal is not passed by then, the government will need a longer extension, requiring the UK to take part in European elections.

The European Council is meeting on the 21st. So there won't even be time for a MV4. I think that's why Bercow was being so cagey in his wording.

Interesting times...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM

Actually, we could both be right :)

Or indeed both wrong, such is the clarity of the moment!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:50 AM

DMcG:
Sorry Nigel, but the odds now that your prediction that we would leave on 29th March and mine that we would still be in a state of uncertainty on 1st April currently looks in my favour.
Actually, we could both be right :)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:48 AM

Some of the right wing press is reporting that with the defeat of the amendment calling for a second referendum, this is no longer an option.

This is mindless balderdash. What Brexit (or indeed its revocation) is deciding is the long term relationship between the UK and the EU. A referendum can never BE that: no-one sensibly claimed it could. A second referendum is a mechanism to choose between alternative relationships. It is not, once again, a relationship in itself.

I do not support a second referendum for the same reasons I did not support the first: it is something Parliamentarians should decide. But if they cannot, votes not withstanding, SOME means of deciding is required and a referendum is one of the few choices available.

Also, that part of the press is tends to ignore that the groups arguing for a public vote requested this should not be voted on at this time, and that was clearly stated several times during the debate itself. That, along with some parliamentary rules about amendments led to Labour abstaining en mass.   It takes a deliberate obtuseness to claim this shows there is no support for the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:29 AM

I said '15 May' in my earlier post. Obviously I meant '15th March'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:09 AM

Latest news. Brexit delay could be the end of May.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:04 AM

BBC live report about 9:55 On 15th May"

 Ms May's hopes of persuading Eurosceptics and the DUP were dealt a hammer blow after the so-called star chamber of Brexiteer lawyers rejected attorney general Geoffrey Cox's latest assessment.

Led by veteran Tory Sir Bill Cash, the group said his idea that the UK could use the Vienna Convention - the international agreement that lays down the rules about treaties - to unilaterally pull out of the backstop was "badly misconceived".

======

It will be even harder to claim something has changed now as justification for Bercow to allow MV3. He will, I an sure, but I think evwryone will try to avoid explaining on what grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:52 PM

Good news for April though. Going to see Stanley Accrington on the 1st to get a good laugh about Btexit and seeing Steeleye Span on the 2nd to forget about this nonsense altogether.

Who says it's all bad :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:37 PM

I thought I would have a look at a betting site to see the options, knowing that 30+ names have been suggested.

People are putting money it seems on some odd choices for next Prime Minister. David Cameron, for instance. George Osborne. Chris Grayling (????), Simon Cowell, Tony Blair, Ann Widdecombe, Arron Banks ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:53 PM

Is May a goner after these votes? Who is going to grab the PM position next?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:35 PM

Even less straightforward!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monmouthshire_(historic)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:02 PM

Fascinating!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 02:34 PM

Some reading for you - it's not straightforward...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 02:19 PM

So, how old is Britain anyway?

In America we have a birthdate for the United States. It's when we offically thumbed our nose at you guys. But who did you guys thumb your noses at? The Romans? The French? Actually it was kind of the other way around. The took Caratacus back home and paraded him through the streets in a Triumph. The French arrived (as Normans) and taught you a new language. Which you successfully absorbed in one of the great turnabout conquests of all time. (Good job on that, by the way!)

So, whence do y'all date from?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 02:01 PM

So May will be asking for an extension. It may not be granted, of course, but if it is it will either be to 30 June or later.

Sorry Nigel, but the odds now that your prediction that we would leave on 29th March and mine that we would still be in a state of uncertainty on 1st April currently looks in my favour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:09 PM

Here's one for the remainiacs to chew on (hot off guidos press)

Sarah Wollaston’s amendment calling for a long extension to provide time for a second referendum has been crushed this evening by 334 votes to just 85

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 12:12 PM

If this vote was democratic in the first place it would have been based on full information of what people were voting for
It was not democratic in any way, it was based on turning one group of people against the other - the worst kind of populism.
The very first result of this was an immediate rise in racist incidents
THat is now even been acknowledged by the extremist right who have realised the necessity to CLEAN UP THEIR IMAGE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM

I repeat....

"Democracy provides for an electorate to change its opinion - that's why we have a General Election every five years. A Referendum is an expression of opinion at a fixed point in time, based on circumstances prevailing at that time. Should those circumstances change, it is not only democratic, but perfectly reasonable, to ask the electorate whether it still has the same opinion, or whether that opinion has changed.

The only 'extremists' around here are those who seek to deny the electorate its democratic right and the opportunity to either confirm its original opinion or change its mind.

What are those extremists afraid of, and why?"

Well....??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:05 AM

Knife crime in the UK is a serious issue. 17.4,000,000 people were stabbed in the back yesterday.

"I know people voted for Brexit for a range of reasons, but many of us did so to regain sovereignty - i.e. to take back control from an EU political elite who seem arrogant, out of touch, incompetent, unaccountable and undemocratic. Can someone please help me understand why our own government would wish to inflame that sentiment and become the focus of it by thwarting Brexit through being arrogant, out of touch, incompetent, unaccountable and undemocratic?!?! Populism (actually anti-establishment-ism) is on the rise all across the West, and politicians seem astonishingly blind to their role in causing it."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:56 AM

I seem to recollect the gnome being publicly rebuked for his abysmal behaviour. The pots twould appear to vastly outnumber the "alleged " kettle.
Your posts are all archived, even some you thought deleted!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:46 AM

Precisely, Dave! Just waiting for more abuse. It's all he's got. At least I get a good laugh!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM

Rhetorical question I presume BWM :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:30 AM

So, having received no reply the first time (other than the usual abuse)m I'll ask again - why are the Brexshiteers, who constantly and vociferously proclaim their profound belief and faith in their perceived version of 'democracy', so fearful of granting the electorate their undeniable, actual democratic right to a re-vote in order to confirm their earlier opinion or, alternatively, demonstrate that they have changed their collective mind?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:08 AM

That's just another invitation for him to continue. Just don't encourage him. It really is very simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:39 AM

The pub must have closed - let him sleep it off
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM

Don't respond
Don't fall for his nonsense
Don't even read his posts if at all possible

It is proven to work but some keep encouraging him. Just stop it please. It is beyond a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:27 AM

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:28 AM

You're going to allow this offensive clown to close this thread if you're not careful Baccy

I do not believe I was the one recently called a bastard. Whoever it was must have been pretty offensive. I believe anyone studying the contributions by the usual suspects will find reams of offensive comments especially directed at the recently departed Keith.

Here is how jimmy refutes an argument
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 28 Feb 17 - 05:32 AM
Piss off you pair of racist pricks
An extremely educated, well crafted response(from a 7th or 8th grader)

Nothing sensible to say so remainiacs resort to insults, bullying and bluster as usual shortly to bring death to yet another thread.g

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM

The referendum was advisory parliament always had the power to over rule ,this was not explained to people , as a result of Cromwell, parliaments powers were increased.

I predict the next conservative leader will be Sajid Javid.
I am a supporter of Jermy Corbyn,but i think the next labour leader might be Sadiq Aman Khan ., if he remains in the labour party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:44 AM

One of the amendments being debated is from Chris Bryant sayingthat the May's deal should not be brought back before Parliament. I assume the reasons will be those in Erskine May. I would be very surprised if that amendment were to pass, but if it did I think Bercow would find himself obliged to require a more significant change than the "change of advice" fig-leaf. Even if rejected, it may mean bringing MV3 becomes the final chance: MV4 could find itself ruled out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:28 AM

You're going to allow this offensive clown to close this thread if you're not careful Baccy - which would suit the rightists here right down to the ground
Put yourself in their shoes; wouldn't you be embarrassed to see your Government disintegrating before your eyes and have to pretend all is well?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:56 AM

Not near as hilarious as I find your "contributions" on brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:45 AM

I find it hilarious that the resident wannabe 'tough-guy' who is making scarcely-veiled threats of violence on this thread, is defecating building-blocks on another thread over the prospect of a 19-year-old girl, who is an abused, brainwashed rape-victim, being allowed to return to the UK - her country of birth - from Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:42 AM

Just put it up o the Irish tread but worth repeating here as Ireland is the main issue of Brexit
Michael Gove has announced that a Brexit crash-out will need to involve a re-establishment of Direct Rule from Westminster Britain's the interests of Britain and the Six Counties are to remain the same
This is tantamount to throwing way all the gains thet have been made since The Good Friday Agreement and will almost inevitably bring violent conflict that much nearer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:32 AM

Democracy provides for an electorate to change its opinion - that's why we have a General Election every five years. A Referendum is an expression of opinion at a fixed point in time, based on circumstances prevailing at that time. Should those circumstances change, it is not only democratic, but perfectly reasonable, to ask the electorate whether it still has the same opinion, or whether that opinion has changed.

The only 'extremists' around here are those who seek to deny the electorate its democratic right and the opportunity to either confirm its original opinion or change its mind.

What are those extremists afraid of, and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM

You know, Iains, it is posts like that which make people decide there is no value in engaging with you. I do so because it think it is valuable to know other peoples views, but there does come a point where the return on investment is too low to bother.

You say both parties campaigned for Brexit.

The Tories campaigned for a Brexit where having a customs partnership was ruled out.

Labour campaigned for a Brexit where a customs partnership was essential.

To suggest they are the same is on the level as claiming 'dead' and 'alive' are the same because they both contain an E and an A.

Add in the repeated dodging of the point I repeated in bold for your convenience and throw in some hint that violence might be acceptable and I find myself drawn to the group who don't respond at all.

As with Keith, it is your hands to decide if you want to raise things to discuss, or are only interested in scoring points in a competition where you are the sole entrant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM

The extremists are those that refuse to recognise the legitimacy of the democratic vote.
This was by referendum
An overwhelming vote for article 50
A general election with both main parties having brexit as a major part of their manifesto.

Remainiacs are a bit like democrats. They just don't get it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:50 AM

Well we have had veiled threats of violence from Farage and others, and they don't impress or scare me. Our grandparents faced down Mosley's thugs, and our parents faced down Powell's, are our generation goint to be the once to cave in to threats of violence from brexit extremists?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM

“Those who make peacful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.”
JFK

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:25 AM

It amazes me how people are still falling this 'will of the people' bollocks. 17 million people voted to leave Europe. There are 66 Million in the UK. Less than 1/3 voted to leave. Of the remaining 2/3, 16 million voted to stay. So that leaves over a 1/3 of the 'people' who's will is entirely unknown. How can this be the will of the people?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM

That is a really interesting possibility, Backwoodsman. It is being suggested that the justification for bringing it back is that Cox's advice is changed because of the Vienna Convention. Now, it is true that is not in his written advice. But it was raised in the debate and his advice on the matter sought and given. So the claim the advice has changed is on very shaky ground indeed. Also that clause of Vienna Convention concerns fundamental changes in the parties concerned. A change of Prime Minister is not such a fundamental change. A change of governing party is not such a fundamental change. A complete collapse of the finances of the UK would be, but presumably those seeking to invoke it do not think that is likely. So this a fig-leaf of an excuse, not a genuine one.

Now, if Teresa May agreed to change her red lines and adopted a more consensual approach, that would be an actual change to the deal, so it could be brought back without doubt.

Some ERG members have said they would vote for the deal on condition May resigns. That takes us into, as far as I know, other uncharted constitutional waters. There is a convention that no parliament can bind its successor, so it cannot pas a law directly restricting its successors actions. It is not clear if that applies to Prime Ministers. For example, if May agreed to adopt some of Labour's ideas, and that so-amended deal was passed with those changes to the parts of the agreement that are *not legally binding*, to what extend would a PM Boris be bound to follow them? I don't think anyone knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM

A suggestion this morning that Bercow might use the ancient rule that a Motion may not be voted on more than once during a session to prevent May's agreement being debated and voted on for a third time.

Fingers crossed. And maybe then we will see the complete lunacy of BrexShit kicked out for good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 06:05 PM

So you think "what is at stake" entitles MPs to try to encourage the EU to thwart Parliament's will if it decides to ask for an extension?

I believe I understand what is at stake as well as you do, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 05:41 PM

But less pleasing is that some Brexiteers including Ian Duncan Smith are reported to have been trying to persuade Hungary and others to veto any request to the EU for an extension. So much for hating how Brussels can overrule the UK Parliament.

A total misunderstanding of what is at stake:
As things stand we crash out on the 29th of this month.Regardless of what Parliament may vote in the meantime, only a changer in the law can negate this. There is not sufficient time to frame the required legislation,debate it in both houses and obtain Royal Assent. That is the reality.
An extension beyond the date of the European elections means the UK quota of MEPs must be elected.(This could be quite entertaining as the seats have already been re-allocated.)
More significantly, an extension gives the remainiacs more time to plot and plan their treasonous betrayal of the democratic will of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 04:32 PM

I can just see the headlines in the Daily Heil.

Corbyn behind anti-semitic plot to keep us in Europe.

And the idiots will believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 03:43 PM

The hoo-hah. Ornate pipes not required.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 03:42 PM

I am pleased to see the Malthouse compromise has been rejected by even more than May's deal. Given the EU was clear about how insane we would be to vote for somwthing rej3cred so often in the negotiations, it is one bright spot in the hookah.

But less pleasing is that some Brexiteers including Ian Duncan Smith are reported to have been trying to persuade Hungary and others to veto any request to the EU for an extension. So much for hating how Brussels can overrule the UK Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:21 PM

Pretty sure it's a different NP Dave.
And I'll pass your regards on...