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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 19 - 12:48 PM With his usual flair for tact and diplomacy BoJo has managed to rub his French counterpart up the wrong way. Johnson mocks Macron. Sounds like just the right sort of thing to do when you really need all the international support you can get. I guess he must have gone to Trump university. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Aug 19 - 11:52 AM Government report with all the wonderful benefits of no-deal Brexit remains steadfastly unleaked...!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 22 Aug 19 - 11:11 AM Boris is meeting Macron today. I would suggest he offers him a long vacation to St. Helena, then we can focus on the important work of Brexit. and Merkel has to face the fact that fears of a German recession are rising after Europe's biggest economy posted its second-lowest manufacturing readout in six years. Wont be helped by all those German cars not coming to Britain if they continue their silly games. Ireland is finally waking up to the fact that playing the EU's useful idiot has consequences. Ireland has urged businesses to review supply chains and their strategies for dealing with UK markets. Firms should monitor possible drastic changes to transport, logistics, certification, regulation, licensing, contracts and data management ahead of Britain’s scheduled departure. The warning comes as firms are businesses are asked to monitor their cash flows, currency and make sure banking affairs are in order. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Aug 19 - 08:47 AM Sorry - couldn't resist Won't happen again Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Aug 19 - 08:37 AM Unlinked quote traceable back to Pokemon site - a shade up on Guido, I suppose Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 22 Aug 19 - 07:36 AM The Common EU Agricultural policy. " Oxfam, not exactly famed for its opposition to government spending, calculated in 2006 that a British household had to pay an additional £832 a year for food because of CAP (it should be noted that another study for eastern and southern European countries that just entered the EU found a smaller inflationary effect on consumer prices). Most hit are, of course, low-income households, where higher prices on day-to-day goods have the greatest effect on their overall means. This is the same scheme that created the milk lakes and butter mountains and still exports at a loss to Africa to undercut and destroy local farm enterprises Worse still, Brussels’ protectionism seems to explicitly favour big business over small and medium-sized farmers. The Heinrich-Böll Foundation, a think tank associated with the German Green Party, found that between 2003 and 2013, over 25% of farms in Europe went out of business. And indeed, it is mostly small farms that vanish, while bigger corporations get even bigger. When it was established in 1962 the original purpose of CAP was to secure that there was enough food for Europeans on a continent that was still wrought from war. By the 1980s, CAP accounted for over two-thirds of the entire EU budget. While the share of the overall budget has since gone down – to 38% under the current six-year budget – it is still the largest financial program of the union. In addition, despite having decreased in relative terms, CAP payments still increased in absolute numbers until 2013. At 38% of the budget, European taxpayers send more than €58bn to farmers each year – a shocking amount if one considers that farmers only make up 3% of the EU’s total population and are responsible for no more than 6% of its GDP. Indeed, while the original goal of CAP was to enable farmers to feed Europe after decades of conflict, now it’s Europe that is feeding farmers through its massive subsidies. Their businesses often only survive because they are effectively bailed out – unlike big financial institutions, these are not one-off bailouts, but day in, day out. If all of this sounds like protectionism and an illiberal economic policy it’s because that’s exactly what it is. That much was also clear from the strongly expressed opposition to a recent free trade agreement with Latin American countries from French President Emmanuel Macron and his colleagues from Ireland, Belgium, and Poland – all countries where farmers are profiting much from CAP. Politicians across Europe are fond of telling us that farmers need “protection” from the scourge of cheap imports, as if consumers’ interest in cheaper food were of no consequence at all. An example of the madness: Richard Findlay is a farmer in the North York Moors National Park between York and Newcastle. As the Financial Times reported last year, Mr Findlay garners a profit of around £12,000 a year by grazing some seven hundred sheep. But even that £12,000 is quite a lot if one looks closer. Indeed, if it weren’t for subsidies delivered by the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), Mr Findlay would be facing a loss of £32,000. Simply put, this farm would not exist if it were not for Brussels."
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 21 Aug 19 - 02:11 PM Font as in once dipped in it you are baptized into a life of truth and righteousness and drop all those foolish leftie ideas. (Remember Ecclesiastes 10:2) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Backwoodsman Date: 21 Aug 19 - 01:11 PM Sorry... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Aug 19 - 01:03 PM Stoppit, John... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Backwoodsman Date: 21 Aug 19 - 11:50 AM Fount. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 21 Aug 19 - 10:24 AM The Boris bounce versus the compo corpse. Spiffing news from the last survey results: Boris has taken a lead of 14 points over Labour in a new Kantar TNS poll, with the party jumping by 17% since May. What a lad! You can read all about it on Guido's site, the font of truth and editorial accuracy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Aug 19 - 10:05 AM CAPX Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 21 Aug 19 - 08:52 AM A sensible view https://capx.co/no-deal-issues-are-real-and-solving-them-is-key-to-a-successful-brexit/ Takes a balanced view,unlike the hysterical mumbo jumbo faithfully repeated here by remainiacs |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Aug 19 - 08:17 AM "For all your (collectively) dire prognostications we may not know anything before Sept 1" Damn - I thought the leaked report came from the Government !!! No responsible government can - or has ever tried to adopt a 'wait and see" policy, vertainly not on this scale The dfact that supporters of Brexit constantly put this up as an argument is confirmation enough that this "keep 'em all out" enterprise hs been a massive leap in the dark from day one Crazier and crazier by the minute Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 21 Aug 19 - 08:13 AM Whatever. Interesting that we are still being told the news is as likely to be good as bad. In over 3 years of asking for good news there has been no response. How is the news as likely to be good going off that track record? And, yes, this is now back to brexit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Stanron Date: 21 Aug 19 - 08:00 AM Well I just nipped out to the shops and it all kicked off. Leading questions with implicit accusations are, to me, an attack. Not a million miles from "Are you still beating your wife?" or, put to UK lefties, "are you all still anti-Semites?" In your posting Date: 21 Aug 19 - 03:32 AM Check which word was emboldened. Incidentally, I'm not a member of any political party. As for Brexit, we are in a state of 'wait and see'. For all your (collectively) dire prognostications we may not know anything before Sept 1. And it is just as likely to be good news as it is to be bad news. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 21 Aug 19 - 07:28 AM Within 10/15 years the East Wind had ripped away all the topsoil, making a once rich agricultural area into the holidaymaker-reliant desert it has become and devastating the lives of the people living there Bit of an exaggeration I would say. The pedological literature does not support such an extreme view, even that relating to north Norfolk. In the last forty years a lot more has been learnt about soils,their erosion and means of mitigating it. In tandem, legislation on watercourses has forced additional remedial measures on landowners. Far more attention is paid to cultivation techniques on slopes. Techniques such as over sowing with a cross slot drill enable seeds to be inserted through an existing cover crop. Soil erosion occurs naturally through mass wasting and has been accentuated ever since man first started farming. Growing crops comes at a price. Not growing crops comes at a price. You starve. What choice are you going to make? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Aug 19 - 07:03 AM "Taking Back Control" (with apologies to Lord Alf): Forward the Brexit Brigade!’ Was there a man dismay'd? Not tho' the leaver knew Boris had blunder'd: Theirs not to make reply, Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to do AND die, Into the valley of Death Rode the seventeen million Taking the rest of us poor sods with 'em... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Aug 19 - 06:39 AM Brexiteers have stopped having good days, Dave. Have you noticed how all their optimism about super duper trade deals and how the little UK is going to kick world ass once we're out has somehow seeped away? Do or die? Do AND die I think the poet actually said... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 21 Aug 19 - 06:35 AM As to your comment "It happens a lot on this forum from the UK lefties." I shall let that stand but if you believe it is in any way the adult line of reasoning you seem to be advocating then I can assure you, you are wrong. But Jim is right. Let's get back to brexit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 21 Aug 19 - 06:30 AM This makes your attack an attack on me. It wasn't an attack Stanron, it was a question. Are you feeling so insecure that you perceive any question as an attack or is it just a bad day? (Another question.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Aug 19 - 05:37 AM Can I suggest that this line might well close this thread down Just a thought Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Aug 19 - 04:56 AM Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Stanron - PM Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM "My appreciation is that the idiot is you, Steve." Fairly personal, I'd say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Backwoodsman Date: 21 Aug 19 - 04:31 AM Stan, it was a question. A question is not an attack. Don’t be silly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Stanron Date: 21 Aug 19 - 03:49 AM Dave the Gnome wrote: "Or do you, as many of your party do, believe that maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people?"This makes your attack an attack on me. If I believed "maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people" that would make me appear inhumane and my opinions could be rejected because of my monstrous nature. It's not that I object to such an attack because it is, or could be in any way, effective. I object to it because it's childish. It happens a lot on this forum from the UK lefties. "You say this and that means you think that and therefor you are a monster!" It's playground stuff. I would prefer a more grown up approach. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 21 Aug 19 - 03:32 AM Why do you personalise this stuff? Because it was a personal question. "Or do you, as many of your party do, believe that maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people?" You answered the question. What's the problem? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Stanron Date: 21 Aug 19 - 03:26 AM Dave the Gnome wrote: And is that not also the case with, say, the steel industry Stanron? If they maintain the population in a way the government seems desirable, then supporting them makes sense and they can be considered viable. Or do you, as many of your party do, believe that maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people?Why do you personalise this stuff? It's nothing to do with belief or doctrine. Mine or anyone else's. It's actually to do with rules. EU rules say that it is unfair for one country to support it's industries above a certain level. So I do think it's a good idea to support the steel industry workers. The EU rules against it. That is one, among many, of the reasons I think we should leave. Other EU countries break these rules apparently without penalty. However the UK is a gross contributor to the EU budget. We are a cash cow to be milked. If we broke the rules we would be fined heavily, because we can afford to pay. That is another, among many, of the reasons I think we should leave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Aug 19 - 02:45 AM "Surely if farms are not viable they should be allowed to go to the wall." Not sure I agree with that Rag "Viable" means profitable in the world we live in, which doesn't mean 'necessary' Food, like housing, and many other basic needs of life, have become investable commodities rather than necessities, and as such, their production depends on their making a smaller and smaller group of people ricer and richer I have become appalled at what this has done, both to the quality of our staple foods and to the planet as a whole, summarised perfectly in mass-produced, shit-tasting cotton-wool bread wrapped in plastic which sticks in the gullet of both the consumer and the planet. We ere regular visitors to Walter Pardon in North Norfolk and over the time we were, watched as the Multinationals ripped up th hedgerows, making ten fields into one in order to make it easy for their monster machines Within 10/15 years the East Wind had ripped away all the topsoil, making a once rich agricultural area into the holidaymaker-reliant desert it has become and devastating the lives of the people living there Maintaining Britain's farming heritage is not a romantic notion; it is part of keeping our planet in good health for future generations JIm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 21 Aug 19 - 02:21 AM And is that not also the case with, say, the steel industry Stanron? If they maintain the population in a way the government seems desirable, then supporting them makes sense and they can be considered viable. Or do you, as many of your party do, believe that maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Stanron Date: 20 Aug 19 - 08:56 PM Well in case you didn't get it, my answer questioned your use of the word 'viable'. If they maintain landscape in a way the Government deems desirable, then supporting them makes sense and they can be considered viable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Raggytash Date: 20 Aug 19 - 08:28 PM May I refer people back to my opening question which was: "Surely if farms are not viable they should be allowed to go to the wall. That is what our resident right wingers believed was OK for mining, steelworks,manufacturing etc etc so why not farming" I can't help but notice you have all studiously avoided addressing this point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 20 Aug 19 - 05:10 PM Odd, then, that the farmers who get paid by far the most in subsidies are the multimillionaire barley barons Not really. the average farm size (94.7 ha) is nearly six times higher than the EU average (16.1 ha) But according to Saville's(2016)the average farm size(combinable crops) is just over 300 hectares. 30% of the direct payment allocation, paid per hectare, is linked to three environmentally-friendly farming practices: crop diversification, maintaining permanent grassland and dedicating 5 % of arable land to environmentally friendly measures (so-called 'ecological focus areas'). England has applied a basic payment at a flat rate according to three different types of land (defined as 'non-severely disadvantaged areas','lowlands & severely disadvantaged areas' and 'upland,other moorland and moorland'); The more land you have the more dosh you get but arable farms, as explained. are larger and require greater capitilization to operate. With sheep all you need is fencing (unless heft)and a dog or two. A sheep costs nominally £100, a combine £125,000. There is also far more financial risk in arable farming. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Aug 19 - 01:12 PM BREXIT THREAT TO REFINERIES CONFIRMED Tusk says those opposing the Backstop are supporting a hard border He poined out that the British Parliament voted for the Backstop and Boris Johnson supported it Boris sulks and skulks away Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Aug 19 - 12:30 PM "A lot of payments are for maintaining the landscape in a state suitable for tourism. Sheep farmers can't make money for wool and not all that much for meat but the sheep gaze the hills and make them look pretty." Odd, then, that the farmers who get paid by far the most in subsidies are the multimillionaire barley barons in lowland England who have turned vast tracts of countryside into dismal, wildlife-free monoculture deserts... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Aug 19 - 10:02 AM 'Laissez-faire' The policy that turned a Famine into a holocaust in 19th century Ireland Taking Boris as an example, for the Tories 'less government' seems to mean the dictatorship of having one man in charge and a parliament with no say in the running of the country Haven't they dried that ELSEWHERE ? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Stanron Date: 20 Aug 19 - 09:41 AM Raggytash wrote: I thought you were discussing farms and farmlands Stanron. I presumed you would be in favour of a "laissez faire" approach. From Encyclopaedia Britannica Laissez-faire, (French: “allow to do”), policy of minimum governmental interference in the economic affairs of individuals and society. How can I be in favour of laissez-faire and leaving the EU. That would not be consistent. I am in favour of less government and that is consistent with leaving the EU. With regard to sheep farming, laissez-faire would be change as little as possible so, as the UK pays the EU subsidy anyway, the smallest change is to continue subsidies to our sheep farms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Aug 19 - 09:31 AM "Perhaps that's why the UK Lefties are so keen on it." Fre Russia - now the most unequal of European State, and the most dangerous since Nazism, is a great exampleof Western freedom and democracy - innit ? AS FOR ARMS SALES MOST NOTABLY Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Stanron Date: 20 Aug 19 - 08:47 AM Iains wrote: As Gorbachov reputedly said:Perhaps that's why the UK Lefties are so keen on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 20 Aug 19 - 08:29 AM Even the BBC receives EU funding. As does the EU Arms industry. How many factories relocated to eastern Europe from the UK with the aid of EU subsidies? There is no point in taking agriculture in isolation. You need to consider thebig picture. Rather like Brexit and the EU march towards: Federalism Common foreign policy common defence force harmonisation and centralisation of Taxation policies control moving more and more to the center. As Gorbachov reputedly said: The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Raggytash Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:35 AM I thought you were discussing farms and farmlands Stanron. I presumed you would be in favour of a "laissez faire" approach. If farmers are not good enough to turn a profit from their lands let them get on a bike and find work. Please try to keep to the topic eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Stanron Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:29 AM If you want a natural landscape, whatever that is, first get rid of human beings. I guess that would have to include UK lefties. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:27 AM "Nazanin Zaghawi Radcliffe," The irony of this, as with the Iranian prisoner, Aras Imiri (and possibly the hero of the 'illegal' Grenfell disaster) is that, as things are heading in Britain if by some miracle, they escaped or weer freed and tried to re-enter their home country, they would probably be incarcerated in one of those inhuman refugee camps until their case was heard Refugees from terror stand to be major victims in Brexit's 'Brave New Britain' Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Raggytash Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:08 AM Well, for a start it is not a natural landscape. Secondly nature is pretty good at creating it's own wonderful landscapes. Three letting nature do it would be a lot cheaper. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Stanron Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:00 AM Farmers viable for what? A lot of payments are for maintaining the landscape in a state suitable for tourism. Sheep farmers can't make money for wool and not all that much for meat but the sheep gaze the hills and make them look pretty. For this they get paid and why not?. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Raggytash Date: 20 Aug 19 - 06:45 AM Surely if farms are not viable they should be allowed to go to the wall. That is what our resident right wingers believed was OK for mining, steelworks,manufacturing etc etc so why not farming. Simple. Having lit the blue touch paper I will retire to a safe distance!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Backwoodsman Date: 20 Aug 19 - 06:38 AM I see on BBC News just now that it’s reported that our Village-Idiot incompetent PM’s victim, Nazanin Zaghawi Radcliffe, is now enduring conditions in prison which have ‘worsened significantly’, and that she is no longer allowed telephone contact with her husband. Why on earth would anyone trust that moronic buffoon, who couldn’t even be bothered to understand the circumstances of Mrs. Radcliffe’s arrest and incarceration by a regime known to deal very harshly with those it considers to be its enemies, to successfully negotiate something so hugely important to us all as our departure from the EU? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 20 Aug 19 - 05:48 AM If all farm supports are withdrawn immediately on Brexit then all sectors of British farming will face immediate bankruptcy. Obviously the deranged remainiacs believe this implicitly. This will not happen. I suggest you read the expert's views and educate yourself. The CAP has created a system of subsidies that has created a dependency on handouts. With an average payment of 250eu/hectare it is a nice little earner. The entire system needs a comprehensive overhaul Even after Brexit subsidies will continue. They may be radically overhauled but they will still exist. Simply another example of project fear by the unthinking! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Backwoodsman Date: 20 Aug 19 - 04:54 AM Further to my previous post about EU farm subsidies, does anyone remember all those farmers with posters on their farm gates exhorting us to vote ‘Leave’? Loads of them in the rural area I live in.... Words like ‘Country’ and ‘Bumpkins’ spring to mind! What on Earth did they expect? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 20 Aug 19 - 04:07 AM The Remain fanatics have so far been subject to cognitive dissonance, but are now collapsing into madness. Well exemplified by their strict adherence to the Abbacus school of maths where losing a referendum wins. Their delusions know no bounds. http://commentcentral.co.uk/remainer-cognitive-dissonance-has-collapsed-into-madness/ Tis a joy to behold ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Aug 19 - 03:06 AM "went on about project fear" This level of argument describes perfectly the discussion of the few Brexiteers on this forum perfectly - a total refusal to engage in what is obviously happening - instead, the pushing of a aet line - it's like trying to argue with a recorded message Theresa May had it down to a fine art - some of her best examples are now standard fodder for 'Have I Got News For You' NICE SUMMING-UP HERE ENTERTAINING ONE HERE You've gorra larf Jim Carroll |