BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:24 AM

I am no longer asking for any positive predictions as, over the last 3 years, that has proved useless. I was asking on the last thread for ideas which may help to get what is right for the country and will satisfy the desires of most people. I know we cannot sway opinion from here but I am interested in what our resident leavers, particularly Stanron and Nigel, think is a good way forward.

Yes, this is a theoretical exercise. The ideas may not be achievable.
But neither was the internet not long ago!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:20 AM

MPs are not in Parliament to follow ‘the wishes of voters’. That’s not how Representative Democracy works. Why do Leave supporters find it such a difficult concept to understand? How many times does it need to be said before it sinks in?

The Responsibilities of an MP

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:43 AM

My disparaged post about a poll clearly stated it was by Ipsos Mori.
Strangely enough they have their own website, just like YouGov.
There you can double check the results to your heats content.

A more recent result yesterday:
A ComRes poll found 54 per cent of the public agree that the Prime Minister Boris Johnson 'needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending Parliament if necessary, in order to prevent MPs from stopping it' . The poll also uncovered a widespread disillusionment with the political process, with 88% of respondents feeling MPs were 'out of touch' with the public, and 89% saying they 'ignore the wishes of voters and push their own agendas' on Brexit. Asked whether they thought Parliament was more in tune with the public than Mr Johnson, 62% disagreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:27 AM

Thanks, SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 09:56 PM

Re-opened. Play nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 12:05 PM

Copy and paste the first sentence into your browser. The post was lifted straight from the Express, that left-wing bastion of fair comment and unbiased reporting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 12:00 PM

Once again no link, so we cannot check the veracity of his post.

This is despite being asked to provide links on numerous occasions.

If he is so confident of what he posts why is he so relucant to supply the origins.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:50 AM

An unattributed copy and paste from the Express from Iains, pretending it's his own work. How honest. How Lord bloody Haw-Haw. He was told what to say too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:42 AM

Tidings of great Joy! Poll wants to exile compo to the cabbage patch.

Since taking over as leader of the party in September 2015, Jeremy Corbyn has attempted to put Prime Ministers David Cameron, Theresa May and now Boris Johnson under as much pressure as possible in his quest to win the keys to 10 Downing Street. He has upped the ante since the EU referendum in June 2016, looking to take advantage of the Brexit chaos that has swept through the Government and Westminster over the past year years.
In his first heated clash with Mr Johnson in the House of Commons last Thursday, Mr Corbyn again called for a general election, raging the British people should choose the next Prime Minister and not the 160,000 Tory members.

But a major new poll has revealed a growing number of voters want the Labour Party to axe their current leader before the next general election.

The survey by Ipsos Mori of 1,0007 UK adults found 62 percent now want the party to replace him before the country next goes to the polls, compared to 55 percent a year ago.

I prefer him   where he is- he is the epitome of uselessness!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 08:11 AM

More 'gpod' news from Brexit
The Bank of England has cut its predictions of economic growth because of the continuing deteriorating situation - they have also declared that the economy will be hit severely if Britain leaves without a deal
Javid has announced that the Tories will use £2 billion of the taxpayers money in order to leave on time "we don't want to but we see no alternative"

The real 'good news is that the Tories stand to have their majority reduced to one if the Welsh by-election goes as predicted
So not all bad news then
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 06:18 AM

That is correct, David. Trying to assess "benefits" or otherwise in purely money terms is dismal. What about the cultural benefits brought about by easy travel, or the fact that we will never have a pan-European war again? And I didn't hear too many complaints fifteen years ago when all those highly-skilled dentists, plumbers, electricians, and healthcare workers flooded in when we didn't have enough of our own...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 05:55 AM

Quite amusing in its way to see the Treasury are now discussing the possibility of an emergency budget because of Brexit. Project fear, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 05:43 AM

There is no net cost of the UK being in the European Union. Only a net benefit. You must include the benefits to citizens as well as to the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 05:38 AM

One of the early predictions of Brexit was that it would be the end of the United Kingdom
It has made a United Ireland a distinct possibility, the SNP are calling for a new referendum on devolution, Welsh farmers are talking about civil unrest after Johnson's descending on them.... seems like there was some substance to the suggestion
Should cheer up the little Englanders no end - wonder if they'll adopt the title sinn fein ("ourselves")
Interesting days
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 04:47 AM

Ah, the Beeching approach....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 04:38 AM

Well if it costs all that dough to keep Northern Ireland, let's get rid! And while we're at it, let's get rid of all those other costly areas too, such as Tyneside, Merseyside, Wales, West Yorkshire and Cornwall! In fact, let's get rid of everywhere except London!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 03:44 AM

"An interesting snippet regarding Brexit and the possibility of Irish reunification."
An extremly edited and manipulated quote which carefully leaves out the important bits

On Brexit, Gosling believes that it “will clearly be damaging”. He predicts that the Northern Ireland economy will be between 2.5% and 10% smaller than it would have been without Brexit.
He explained to the Féile audience why big companies like Bombardier and Wrightbus are worried about markets in Great Britain as their trade tends to be east-west, and their individual transactions have the greatest value.
Meanwhile, SMEs – who have the greatest volume of transacitons – are more worried about north-south trade.
Paul reminded the audience about the scale of pubic spending in Northern Ireland, the area with the highest public spend per person in the UK.
Official figures explain that the annual net cost to the UK being in the European Union is £8.1 billion. Whereas the size of the annual subvention to Northern Ireland is a whopping £9.2 billion.
It costs more for Northern Ireland to be within the UK than for the UK to be in the EU!
He asked: “why does the United Kingdom pay £9.2 billion a year to keep Northern Ireland?”
While supportive of a border poll, Paul explained during the Q&A that he believes that there is no rush. Better to wait for the impact of Brexit to hit, show how the Irish economy weathers it while the north struggles, and then make a call for a poll.
Any exit from the UK should not be “big bang”.
“We need to get to a negotiated solution in which we move stage-by-stage to a United Ireland because it is in the interest of the Great Britain taxpayer that they reduce the cost of Northern Ireland.”
Paul calculates that the subvention would be somewhat lower if Northern Ireland belonged to the Republic of Ireland rather than the United Kingdom. Some costs wouldn’t transfer across, or would be substantially lower: eg, contribution to defence spending, paying off the UK debt, smaller matters like the Royal Family.

THE ARTICLE IN FULL

A rather spectacular example of teh shyster way that Brexit is being sold to teh gullible, I would say
MORE GOOD NEWS FOR BREXIT BELFAST
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 03:22 AM

An interesting snippet regarding Brexit and the possibility of Irish reunification.
Official figures explain that the annual net cost to the UK being in the European Union is £8.1 billion. Whereas the size of the annual subvention to Northern Ireland is a whopping £9.2 billion. It costs more for Northern Ireland to be within the UK than for the UK to be in the EU

Of course for any vote on unification to occur the republic must give consent.(and be prepared to dig deep in their pockets) Typical of the media to only give a partial story.

I find all this of rather more pressing concern than the resident pedant's focus on straws, but then if he cannot construct links it rather betrays an inability to think clearly or to follow simple rules.
Really best ignored in fact. He only pops up to insult flame and troll.
Just look at his recent contributions

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:51 PM

Fine. Nighty night.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM

My appreciation is that the idiot is you, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:43 PM

Sometimes the invocation of "pedantics" is an amazing way of exposing idiots. Try to not align yourself too closely is my advice, Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:16 PM

Pedantics clutch at trivialities. The broad sweep cuts the hay.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 04:14 PM

"I detect a clutching of straws!"

It's clutching AT straws, old chap. Even Mr Staines wouldn't have made that elemental mistake. And the straws in question are not, as you appear to suppose, drinking straws, but straws of the dried grassy variety. Tsk. He's going to be very cross with you...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 02:55 PM

As I said earlier, it takes a special kind of mental dwarfism to gloat over the troubles of others
I was half-joking when I first came to that conclusion - it seems first impressions are often the most reliable
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 02:40 PM

"Fianna Fáil, "
Formed and led by Eoin O'Duffy who was President of the Executive Council; Éamon de Valera dismissed O'Duffy as commissioner; O@Duffy that July, O'Duffy was offered and accepted leadership of the ACA and renamed it the National Guard. He re-modelled the organisation, adopting elements of European fascism, such as the Roman straight-arm salute, uniforms and huge rallies. Membership of the new organisation became limited to people who were Irish or whose parents "profess the Christian faith". O'Duffy was an admirer of Benito Mussolini, and the Blueshirts adopted corporatism as their chief political aim.

I spoke to Dooley before the last election ahd he told me why he believed Donald Trump should be welcomed to Ireland
Someone whose opinions should be taken very, very seriously
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 02:15 PM

I agree, Raggy, the Brexiteers are not showing much confidence that no deal will be a great success. They sound really desperate to blame someone - anyone - if it doesn't work out. Boris will tell them off for lack of optimism, I expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM

Timmy Dooley, Communications Spokesman for Fianna Fáil, blasted Varadkar’s “failure to engage in basic diplomacy over the past 2 years” in a now-deleted tweet:

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:24 PM

It takes a special sort of mentality to gloat over other people's problems (especially those caused by the Party they support) and ignore those being caused daily to your own country
Maybe it's something they put in the water !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:18 PM

There is another US factor that so far I haven't seen discussed. If you cast your mind back to 'The Troubles' a very large number of - mainly east coast - Americans were quite willing to contribute to 'the cause'. And all those people have votes in upcoming presidential elections. Trump is certainly opposed to the EU as a concept, but he is also in favour of getting votes where he can. I would not be surprised to see quite a few comments from both sides trying to win the support of these people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:13 PM

There has been a marked shift in recent days to start laying the blame for a "no-deal" with anyone who just happens to be there. Leo Vadarkar, Angela Merkel, the European Union in general.

Just so Johnson can try to claim it wasn't his fault. Will the British public fall for those lies. Sadly many will.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:49 PM

I detect a clutching of straws!
Are they the stainless steel killer variety?
or the Blond bombshell re elect me plastic straws?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:26 PM

And that's no empty threat. Ireland has many friends in Congress and Trump will find it impossible to get a deal past them if they feel the the Good Friday Agreement is threatened. Which ditching the backstop will definitely do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:18 PM

Looks like Boris & Co. can forget any sort of a trade deal with the U.S. if the Backstop is ditched.

Ooops.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:16 PM

Nonsense. Varadkar represents a population not even the size of Yorkshire and he cannot even play cricket!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 11:03 AM

Intransigence costs jobs!

No doubt you will recognise that if Boris takes us into a no deal through HIS intransigence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 10:32 AM

The Central Bank of Ireland has sounded off about potential ‘cliff-edge’ risks in the event of a no-deal, no-transition Brexit:

    “The main outstanding source of risk to financial stability in Ireland stems from a worse-than-expected macroeconomic shock. This could arise if the expected negative impact through trade channels is compounded by a sharp increase in uncertainty and a fall in confidence, with knock-on effects to Irish employment, incomes and investment. Ireland’s relatively acute exposure to Brexit may also negatively alter investor sentiment towards Irish assets, with adverse implications for financing conditions of an already relatively indebted private sector. Given the extent of direct and indirect exposures, this would result in unanticipated losses for the domestic financial system.”

The Central Bank forecasts that in a No Deal scenario Irish economic output could be approximately 6% lower in 2020. In the understated language of central bankers they warn of

    “… severe financial market dislocation and have potential knock-on effects for financial stability in Ireland.

Yesterday’s third quarterly report report from the bank predicts there will be around 34,000 fewer jobs by the end of next year and more than 100,000 fewer jobs over the medium term compared to their forecast in the event of no deal. The Irish workforce is only two and a quarter million – one fifteenth the size of the UK. This would be like the UK losing 1.5 million jobs, almost 5% of the workforce…

Intransigence costs jobs!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 05:07 AM

He was referring to Dominic Cummings, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 04:35 AM

Interesting report in The Times this morning
Nigel Farage has said that Johnson’s right-hand man on Brexit is not to be trusted as he “is not a true believer”
Hallelujah !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 03:01 AM

If you think about the functions of government, from ensuring peace to emptying the bins, there is an appropriate level for all of them. And the level that seems appropriate for the least is actually the national government. Nationalism has been responsible for as much conflict in the world as religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 02:13 AM

Rer3ading his post, Inrealise that Walkabout may have meant some of that when he said "some local government" and therefore addressed the three levels I gave as examples. So take the UK with its four components. Or the US with its local admin, state wide rules and federal rules. These are driven by the need for an organisation higher than local and lower than world wide.

Then think about the unification of Italy. They had regional 'nations' and that was replaced by a unified nation. Which was more appropriate in your scheme.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:49 AM

I agree, Steve. The premise is that the best solution for any problem is either very local or world wide. It seems fairly self evident to me that that is not the case. Sorting out my bin collection, planning and maintaining motorways and climate change are on three inherently different levels I would say. So two levels seem inadequate just on that example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 09:10 PM

Who's this "we"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 05:08 PM

We don't just want to Brexit but to help get rid of the EU; apart from some local government, all any citizen of our world needs is their own nation & the UN; my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Nationalism without Conquest"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 02:46 PM

Interesting analysis of Google searches about no-deal

If, as we sometimes told, everyone understood they were well aware of the no-deal option at the time they voted in the referendum, it seems many may have forgotten until fairly recently.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 01:14 PM

"No, it said that the jobs may go, "
Jobs have already gone
Britain needs to plan for creating jobs, not planning for losing more and certainly not adopting a "wait and let's see what heppens" policy
No system can survive such an approach to its economy

From reports form Wales, it seems that an adverse effect on Framing is now being planned for
Johnson has promised that farming will receive government help if this happens
He has been warned that if Brexit is damaging to Welsh Farming there is likely to ve civil unrest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:55 PM

I am hearing a lot of comments from the PM and various ministers that it is up to the EU whether we leave with no deal. That sounds like laying the ground that it will be the EU's fault if we leave with no deal.

Sounds very juvenile to me. If people think a no deal is fine, stop trying to blame other for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:15 PM

"A perfectly fair viewpoint, as no business is going to continue for long if unprofitable."
If Brexit has had anything to do with this, as it is claimed, then Brexit is causing the "unprofitability"
That unprofitability is taking 1000 jobs out of a part of Britain which historically has major unemployment problems - the work will go to Europe
Tell the workers at Ellesmere Port that is a perfectly fair viewpoint

No, it said that the jobs may go, if it proves impossible to trade profitably at the Ellesmere Port site.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:11 PM

THESE FIGURES ARE FOUR MONTHS OLD
THE SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME ???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 11:34 AM

"A perfectly fair viewpoint, as no business is going to continue for long if unprofitable."
If Brexit has had anything to do with this, as it is claimed, then Brexit is causing the "unprofitability"
That unprofitability is taking 1000 jobs out of a part of Britain which historically has major unemployment problems - the work will go to Europe
Tell the workers at Ellesmere Port that is a perfectly fair viewpoint
Bexit is supposed to enable Britain to "stand on its own two feet" - where does taking jobs to Europe fit in with this grand plan ?
It is difficult to discover how many jobs have been lost following Dyson's move to Singapore and India, but Wiltshire seems to have been one of the areas affected
Dyson invested millions in gettig Brexit through and immediately pissed off
It has been announced that 3,500 jobs at Hongda will be lost in the next 18 months
And teh bea goes on
All good business practice, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 11:18 AM

I don't think it has been lower against the Euro. Remember, we could have gone in to the Euro at 1.6,
Currently 1.0988
12 Oct 2009 1.07866
22 Dec 2008 1.0549.3
Better to look it up rather than going on personal feelings: Here