BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 08:04 AM

The ambassador's communications were confidential. Trump has no business even knowing about them. The person who leaked them deserves the most severe punishment. If he had said something uncomplimentary to Trump's face, even something as blinding obvious to everyone as the material he did send in confidence, then I agree that he would have had to go. But he didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 06:56 AM

That's how you see it. To me, it looks more like the Brexit supporters are unwilling to reflect on how Trump throwing his weight around and our apparent willingness to capitulate shows the vacuousness of the sovereignty claims they have been making.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:18 AM

The MPs are all wriggling trying to shift blame.Sovereignty does not enter the equation. The ambassador's goose was cooked. He is expected to be accurate in his assessments but the language used needs to be tempered. His was not. Once it hit the public domain his position was untenable. That is what caused his termination regardless of whether he jumped or was pushed.
Diplomacy is about being diplomatic, the ambassador was not. Had he described you in such terms would you want anything to do with him?
Sovereignty has absolutely nothing to do with the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM

As to sovereignty, I don't see how that enters the matter

Fair enough you can't see it. Most people can, as that Hansard debate shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 03:46 AM

Sorry, Nigel, but you are well aware of the concept of constructive dismissal. For example, Wiki express it it as this:

In employment law, constructive dismissal, also called constructive discharge or constructive termination, occurs when an employee resigns as a result of the employer creating a hostile work environment. Since the resignation was not truly voluntary, it is, in effect, a termination. For example, when an employer places extraordinary and unreasonable work demands on an employee to obtain their resignation, this can constitute a constructive dismissal.

(There are lots of equivalent expressions elsewhere)

Trump behaved as he often does. Boris, given a choice of clearly supporting the ambassador at the risk of crossing Trump, went with Trump. The ambassador found that the hostile environment spoken of above.

But I also notice that the answer you gave made no mention of sovereignty, which was an important part of the question.

Nice quote about 'constructive dismissal', but it doesn't appear to support your argument. It describes such dismissal as caused by the employer, and you were saying Trump caused the registration/dismissal. Trump is/was not the employer of Kim Darroch, so this definition doesn't fit the situation.


As to sovereignty, I don't see how that enters the matter. The UK can still appoint an ambassador, but the country he/she is sent to can still choose whether to interact with that ambassador. The chosen person then needs to be mutually acceptable to the two countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:55 PM

And. I see you cannot mention sovereignty either, Iains. Here is an extract from the Hansard debate. The views expressed here are quite typical of the whole debate:

===

Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)
May I first welcome the comments of my friend the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) and my right hon. Friend the Minister? This has been a very difficult moment for British diplomacy, and it is worth thinking about why that is so.

This is a direct challenge to a sovereign nation and its ability to nominate its own representative. If sovereignty does not allow a nation to choose its own representative, frankly, what is it but servitude? That is why Britain must stand up for our envoys. If we do not think that they are up to it, we must replace them, but we must not be bullied into seeing them kicked out or silenced. May I therefore ask my right hon. Friend to assure me, and everyone in this House, that Her Majesty’s Government will always stand up for those we send abroad, military or civilian, and back them as necessary, in the interests of the British people and no one else.

====

Most people agree that the leaker should be found and suffer any relevant penalty. Richard Tice, the Brexit Party MEP, speaking on Newsnight last night, did not think the police should be involved in investigating this, and was very much of the "move on and let's appoint a businessman instead of a civil servant" mind set, but almost everyone else seems to take the leak more seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:40 PM

I wonder what a knobwhappet is? Even the internet does not offer an explanation. Obviously run out of counter arguments so resorts to the fallback position of the left, so I presume it is some kind of insult.
What a sad little fellow.Most people try to find constructive things to do in their retirement.

I find it no surprise the ambassador resigned. His cover was blown and his usefulness thereby finished. Who in their right mind thinks he could just carry on as normal after trashing the head of state of the country he was assigned to? They must be living in a fantasy world.
    The real question to be answered is who leaked the document and was it transmitted by electronic means or by diplomatic bag. Opinions of that sort of sensitivity should have had the highest levels of security.
It is expected that ambassador's opinions are candid, that is an essential part of their remit. But, by the same token such findings should not be on public view to accompany the bacon and eggs of a sunday breakfast. Those guilty of the leak must be identified and severely punished. Secrecy is an essential part of diplomacy and it is essential that it is maintained, regardless of what his opinions were. They were never meant for public consumption.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:09 PM

Who's the fool indeed. I'm not the one going to great lengths to prove a completely nonsensical argument. Knobwhappet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:59 PM

Here is a link to the Hansard record of the Parliamentary debate on Kim Dorroch

Most MPs of all parties seem to agree that there is more to it than 'he chose to resign'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:43 PM

Proof of the pudding!
https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/downloads/download/755/referendum_results
Numerically by Ward, Constituency and political party

Sadly not all councils were as "thorough".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:39 PM

Sorry, Nigel, but you are well aware of the concept of constructive dismissal. For example, Wiki express it it as this:

In employment law, constructive dismissal, also called constructive discharge or constructive termination, occurs when an employee resigns as a result of the employer creating a hostile work environment. Since the resignation was not truly voluntary, it is, in effect, a termination. For example, when an employer places extraordinary and unreasonable work demands on an employee to obtain their resignation, this can constitute a constructive dismissal.

(There are lots of equivalent expressions elsewhere)

Trump behaved as he often does. Boris, given a choice of clearly supporting the ambassador at the risk of crossing Trump, went with Trump. The ambassador found that the hostile environment spoken of above.

But I also notice that the answer you gave made no mention of sovereignty, which was an important part of the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:26 PM

Since I said --
I wonder if our resident Brexit supporters are going to explain Trump's ability to force Sir Kim Darroch to resign illustrates our sovereignty.

--- Nigel, Stanron and Iains have all posted on other topics. I assume I was right in thinking they might not want to discuss what this shows and suggests about our sovereignty when dealing the the US.

I didn't comment because it was a false premise. Trump didn't force Darroch to resign. That was his own decision.
However, the fact that Trump was no longer willing to deal with him after his comments were made known makes it unsurprising that Darroch chose to resign.
If any one person (apart from Darroch) was responsible for causing the resignation, I would suggest it was whoever decided to leak the earlier comments, or the newspaper which decided that they were worth publishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:15 PM

Show us how to post a screen dump on Mudcat. PIllock.

1) Take screenshot
2) paste into paint and save as jpeg or any other common format
3) use any suitable ocr freeware to convert the text saved in the paint         file
4) Copy final product into mudcat text box

eg from my laptop

Battery
Overview
100%
See which apps are affecting your battery life

Simples! as Martin said to his man "who is the fool now!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:39 PM

Thanks for introducing a bit of sanity cousin McG.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:22 PM

Since I said --
I wonder if our resident Brexit supporters are going to explain Trump's ability to force Sir Kim Darroch to resign illustrates our sovereignty.

--- Nigel, Stanron and Iains have all posted on other topics. I assume I was right in thinking they might not want to discuss what this shows and suggests about our sovereignty when dealing the the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:10 PM

Show us how to post a screen dump on Mudcat. PIllock.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:00 PM

How about s screen dump. Sheesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 12:35 PM

BTW. Just noticed my tablet power is at 65% but I cannot offer any proof so I guess I could be imagining it.

Sheeesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 12:32 PM

I don't claim 65%. A YouGov survey does.

Nigel. Fair argument. Unlikely as it seems, there is a slim possibility that some were less than 50%. As there is no proof either way I think we are down to opinions. So, who do I believe? One that is more likely to be correct, given by someone who is not prone to making things up. Or that of a nitpicking pedant with no proof then other way?

Hmmmm. Tough one...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 12:00 PM

Nigel. 65% of Labour voters wanted to remain. Discount Scotland and NI because they all wanted to remain. To have more Labour voters for leave in any English or Welsh constituency it means that in others the remain vote amongst Labour voters must have been massively over 65%. By no statistical or linguistic trick can that be true.
No statistical or linguistic trickery required.
To put it very simply (as that seems to be necessary), if the average Labour vote to remain was 65% (and that is just the result of a poll, not a verified figure) then 65% is an average when considering constituencies. To see one constituency drop below 50% would not seem unlikely. Nor would it be unlikely (in view of the total number of constituencies available) for several constituencies to have less than 50% of their Labour supporters voting remain.
Whether the extremes which make up that 65% average are as broad as I suggest they may be, there is nothing to confirm Steve Shaw's contention.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 11:57 AM

Very nice Iains, but it does not tell us which members of the public voted to remain or to stay.

Well let us make an assumption that those that voted for a Labour MP in the 2015 election also maintained their majority vote one year later in the referendum.
I take as an example Birmingham Northfields These figures are actual.

Labour         Richard Burden         17,673         41% in 2015 election
Labour         Richard Burden         23,596         53.2% in 2017 election         Increase 11.6 %
June 2016 Referendum result by wards of Northfields constituency:

       WARD            Renain Leave   Total   Remain Leave

        Kings Norton        4,275        6,643        10,918        
       Longbridge        4,269        8,157        12,426        
        Northfield        5,005        8,151        13,156                
        Weoley         4,785        6,695        11,480        7        18,334   27,256

        59$ voted leave                        
       53% voted labour
That succinctly demonstrate a labour stronghold that voted leave

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 11:18 AM

But overall Leave had 17,410,742 votes which equates to 51.89% of those that voted. What colour shirt or dress they wore on the day is but a distraction, similarly with what way party members voted. It is of no significance that you claim 65% of labour voted to remain
(It is only a polled figure anyway) Remain still lost so the argument is of no significance, as carefully explained on the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 09:20 AM

Nigel. 65% of Labour voters wanted to remain. Discount Scotland and NI because they all wanted to remain. To have more Labour voters for leave in any English or Welsh constituency it means that in others the remain vote amongst Labour voters must have been massively over 65%. By no statistical or linguistic trick can that be true. You are clutching at straws.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 06:22 AM

There is no way in which: Just look at the oft quoted Survey on how the country voted. In case you have not got the sense to find it yourselves, here it is again. in case you cannot be arsed to even follow that, the key point is that 65% of Labour voters chose remain. Steve has it right. I don't know how to make it simpler apart from putting it in a Ladybird book. Or the Daily Mail. The majority of Labour voters everywhere chose remain.
can be taken as confirmation of Steve's contention that: There was not a single constituency in which more Labour voters voted leave than remain.
The fact that the YouGov survey says that 65% of the national Labour vote was for remain does not mean that this was the case in every single constituency.
Maybe a Ladybird book is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:48 AM

Raggtash The figures are very clear, In Birmingham the Brexit vote was broken down into wards and constituencies enabling the breakdown to be studied very thoroughly. Not all councils followed suit so statistical methods had to be employed leading to slight inaccuracies as highlighted in my previous link
It should be obvious to anyone the votes are spread among constituencies.
The only time a gross figure is of any relevance is in a referendum where leave won! In the case of constituencies it is the majority vote within the constituency dictates outcomes as you very well know.
If it makes you feel better to argue what the different figures mean fair enough, but constituency majorities determine outcomes- nothing else. Distorting the outcomes by including those that did not vote may plump up your figures but we can all see the absurdity of such meaningless pastimes

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 02:41 AM

It makes sense, Stanron. 65% of Labour voters wanted to remain. If the party is not fulfilling their wishes it is little wonder that they will lose some members. Hopefully they have now addressed that issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 04:28 PM

”I don't know how to make it simpler apart from putting it in a Ladybird book. Or the Daily Mail. The majority of Labour voters everywhere chose remain.”

Put it on the side of a big red bus Dave, they’ll believe it then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 04:03 PM

Well, Stanron, I begin by noticing it is from September 2016.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:57 PM

OK I see what you are saying. What do you think of this?

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/09/23/labours-losing-leave-voters

from the same source.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:39 PM

Just look at the oft quoted Survey on how the country voted. In case you have not got the sense to find it yourselves, here it is again. in case you cannot be arsed to even follow that, the key point is that 65% of Labour voters chose remain. Steve has it right. I don't know how to make it simpler apart from putting it in a Ladybird book. Or the Daily Mail. The majority of Labour voters everywhere chose remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:49 PM

Very nice Iains, but it does not tell us which members of the public voted to remain or to stay.

Furthermore it does not tell us which of those people who may or may not be labour voters voted to stay or remain.

May I suggest that you go back to Steve's original post and try (I know it may be difficult for you) to comprehend exactly what he was saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:20 PM

There was not a single constituency in which more Labour voters voted leave than remain. Perhaps you should read more carefully what was typed before hurling your insults around.
As the pantomime dame is wont t osay: OH YES THERE IS !

As I frequently say: I believe in posting facts.
One example Birmingham

Birmingham is divided into ten parliamentary constituencies, each of which elects one Member of Parliament (MP) to the House of Commons.
EU Referendum Results 2016 by Constituency and Ward
    Edgbaston - Preet Gill (Labour)Voted leave
    Erdington - Jack Dromey (Labour)leave
    Hall Green - Mr Roger Godsiff (Labour)
    Hodge Hill - Liam Byrne (Labour)Leave
    Ladywood - Shabana Mahmood (Labour)
    Northfield - Richard Burden (Labour)leave
    Perry Barr - Mr Khalid Mahmood (Labour)leave
    Selly Oak - Steve McCabe (Labour)
    Sutton Coldfield - Mr Andrew Mitchell (Conservative)
    Yardley - Jess Phillips (Labour)

Time for a little reminder:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 11:31 AM
I was being whimsical. Anyone normal here would have seen that. It’s what we do to politicians, Nigel. I find it devilishly amusing and I don’t expect anyone to think I’m telling the literal truth

Now if we wish to discuss insults;

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:34 PM

Come on, mods. You did it with Teribus and you did it with akenaton. This bloke is worse. Make the place sweeter and get rid of him. Surely you've seen enough. And Jim, no responding this time, right?

Noy even your gig and you presume to dictate! You really are insufferable at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM

Stanron, that link gives no information about which way Labour voters voted in the referendum. That is simply not addressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:12 PM

… And, of course, how it demonstrates we will be able to assert our sovereignty when it comes to any US trade deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:11 PM

I wonder if our resident Brexit supporters are going to explain Trump's ability to force Sir Kim Darroch to resign illustrates our sovereignty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 01:43 PM

Is this all lies then?

https://fullfact.org/online/referendum-results-by-constituency/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 01:05 PM

Not more Labour leave voters than Labour remain voters. We appear to be suffering from a rash of illiteracy around here this afternoon. And we are talking about surveys after the event rather than polls before the event. Of course, no-one can force anyone to tell the truth, but I'd just point out that one individual here who is never on my side of the argument resorts to published polls all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 12:55 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: There was not a single constituency in which more Labour voters voted leave than remain. Perhaps you should read more carefully what was typed before hurling your insults around.

This is only true because more than 'one' constituency had more leave voters than remainers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 12:50 PM

There was not a single constituency in which more Labour voters voted leave than remain.
As Iains said, a sweeping statement with no referenced back-up.
As the referendum was a secret ballot, no-one knows how the vote was broken down, any polls are just that, and we saw around the referendum just how accurate polls may be (or not).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 12:49 PM

Thank you Monique

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Monique
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 12:37 PM

Link to the BBC Site

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 11:48 AM

There was not a single constituency in which more Labour voters voted leave than remain. Perhaps you should read more carefully what was typed before hurling your insults around.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 11:42 AM

A report on the BBC website suggests that up to 40,000 jobs could be lost in Northern Ireland if a no-deal Brexit were to occur.

This information is based on analysis from Stormonts Department for the Economy. That is a government department, not anyone who our Brexiteers could describe as tree-hugging leftards or any other such offensive name.

Will any of our Brexiteers have the courage to respond ....... I doubt it.

Could someone please link to the webpage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:36 AM

"Did it impact his speeches or prodigious literary output?"
Witten by somebody else and not particularly well delivered

Yet he was awarded the Nobel prize for literature in 1953. I suspect the Nobel Committee know a little more about his standing than an exile that snipes at blighty nearly every opportunity. I am also absolutely certain he was not guilty of plagiarism so wrong again!

It is a matter of public record that .. When demand was high for his newspaper and magazine articles, Churchill employed a ghostwriter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:02 AM

Once again. Whether you're in the progressive south or in Labour's northern heartlands, the fact remains that there wasn't a single constituency anywhere in which Labour voters had a majority supporting leave.

Sweeping statements backed by zero evidence is just distracting white noise. Is it whimsy again, or simply an inability to find and construct supporting links? Repeating lies does not make them true

Whereas my easily found and simply constructed link utterly rejects your false assertions


https://fullfact.org/online/referendum-results-by-constituency/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:39 AM

"Did it impact his speeches or prodigious literary output?"
Witten by somebody else and not particularly well delivered
A man in the right place at the right time - no more
Churchill's one outstanding quality was that he opposed the rise of fascism while all his Tory colleagues were happy to look the other way
He was happy to turn out the troops against striking miners - too near home to ignore

Anybody who ignores the latest Trump Circus regarding the new Ambassador and his attacks on the British elected leadership and hasn't been alerted to the dangers of placing the fortunes of Brexit Britain in the hands of the U.S. has to be regarded a Quisling
If I were in any way a nationalist or even a patriot I would regard it a personal insult
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:20 AM

No, what I am saying, and what you are having problems understanding, is that once the UK has control over our fishing grounds, our fishing fleet will see that expansion is worthwhile because the UK can decide who has access to those fishing grounds

As I say fairly often, I like to make a statement, respond, then leave it, so I will not be continuing this subtopic beyond this post. But, I understand that perfectly well, Nigel. The points I raised were that whether you can see opportunities long term or not, such expansion costs money and that has to come from somewhere. Also, unlike many businesses that can grow 1 or 2 percent at a time, the nature of shipping and access to fishing areas make that very much more granular: you have say 3 ships and want to expand to 4: you have to cost-justify a 25% expansion, or not expand. The established traders do not have to build up additional resources and so can bid more for a given level of profit. Now, some of the biggest UK businesses may be able to justify the gamble of investing but then not winning the business. I don't think small ones can.

Then the second point is that while the UK (government) can decide who gets access, there is no reason to believe the UK fishermen will get any sort of preferential treatment: indeed it would not be hard to make the case that the focus should be income to the UK as a whole, not any one specific sector, and therefore it would be wrong to give them such preferential treatment. So any fishermen who voted leave on the grounds it would protect their industry may find it does not work out like that at a personal level.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 08:56 PM

Once again. Whether you're in the progressive south or in Labour's northern heartlands, the fact remains that there wasn't a single constituency anywhere in which Labour voters had a majority supporting leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 08:18 PM

Leavers believe that the UK, as a nation, is finished,

Sorry, that should be "Remainers believe"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 08:15 PM

That (Raggytash) is the basis of the whole argument. Leavers believe that the UK, as a nation, is finished, and can never be a worthwhile, separate, sovereign, nation,
Brexiteers believe that the UK is capable of functioning outside of the control of the EU.

You have obviously already chosen your side of the argument in complete capitulation.