BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM

Thing is, Dave, for many years, migration from non-EU countries has exceeded migration from the EU yet there has been little fuss about it, little attempt to curb it nor any attempt to make it a political issue. Migration from the EU, which has always been extremely beneficial to this country and which almost never involves immigrants claiming benefits (the opposite, in fact, as most EU immigrants make a net contribution in terms of paying their taxes), has become talismanic for leavers. It's dishonest, disreputable and utterly unfair to those thousands of EU citizens who make a genuine contribution to this country, unlike some of those Tory off-shorers, non-doms and general corporate parasites who are about to cash in on brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 05:40 PM

We are required to allow free passage of EU members across our borders.

Seeing as you obviously missed it in the link I posted, here are the relevant facts.

These rights do not undermine the UK’s ability to control its borders, for three principal reasons.
First, the largest category of migrants to the UK come from outside the EU, and are not entitled to rely on EU laws on freedom of movement.[3] The UK’s ability to restrict entry to this group is unaffected by its membership of the EU.
Secondly, whereas many Member States have replaced individual controls with a common policy at their common frontier (known as the Schengen Area),[4] the UK chose to retain its right to independent border control and is entitled to check the identity of every individual entering the country.[5]
Thirdly, EU law does not provide nationals from other EU Member States with an unlimited right to enter or remain in the UK. Most importantly, the right to live in the UK without any conditions or formalities only lasts for three months.[6] In addition, the right is subject to limitations “on grounds of public policy, public security or public health”.[7] Specifically, the UK retains the right to restrict the freedom of movement and residence of EU citizens and their family members, where their personal conduct represents “a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society”[8] and the home Member State of any expelled EU nationals must allow those nationals to re-enter their territory.[9]

Got it? It really is simple. We control our own borders already.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 05:17 PM

It's no good presenting facts, Steve. I have already posted the truth about so called free movement within the EU and that was ignored. Maybe you will do better with the facts about the passing of laws but I seriously doubt it.

Never mind, eh. There are some advantages to leaving the UK government unfettered by EU human rights legislation and going back to the good old days of empire. We can start to shit on all our neighbours again ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:34 PM

Nigel, you are simply trying to perpetuate the myth that unelected EU commissioners force laws on us. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most EU laws and regulations are passed by common consensus among the 28 states and they are generally good laws that no-one would wish to quarrel with. In the event of disagreement, votes in the European Parliament may be held, and there are various levels of veto available, particularly for larger and more influential states such as the UK. Very few laws have got through without UK agreement, approximately three percent in the last twenty years, and you would be very hard-pressed to tell me about any of real game-changing significance. In a club of 28 that is very good going. And UK domestic law is our business and ours alone, as with all other EU states. I've said all this so many times on this forum and all of it is checkable, but do feel free to stick to your leavers' catechism of received wisdom.

When we leave the EU and have to rely more on deals with the US and China, just watch how we will have to accept different standards, usually lower, without a say in the matter. What price sovereignty and taking control then, Nigel, especially when you consider that we'll also be taking rules from the EU with no say there either?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:53 PM

Doncha just know you have 'em by the short and curlies when they starts talking down to you again
As predictable as Brexit being a fuck up - every time

As predictable as you destroying threads on a regular basis by introducing your pet hobbyhorses that have zilch to do with the thread.

If you wish to dive off at a tangent why not discuss daisies. At least that is a subject you may have some slight knowledge of, unlike most of what you pontificate on..

For example:
"refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis. This has jackshit to do with brexit." Fact:The world's top five major arms exporters are the United States, Russia, Germany, France and China. Together, they account for 74 percent of the total volume of exports. Talking about Britain in such a context merely displays your rabid anglophobia(again!)
If you want to babble on about it open your own thread, and then you can talk to yourself

I do not talk down to you. It would be a waste of my valuable time. I talk over you, I find it more productive. Conversations with cabbages are somewhat sterile.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:43 PM

Brexit has been examined mathematically and the proof has been solved
at long last by super computers and geniuses.


Brexit will continue to expand and accelerate as a phenomenon and a problem!


It is due to negative pressure, not positive pressure, as Dark Matters do


For Mathematicians - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwYSWAlAewc

btw
The USA was very fortunate that Albert Einstein exited Germany. It led to total victory over the Axis.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:35 PM

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval

Must be an aborigine in the dreamtime!

Since 1996, the UK had failed to block a single proposal placed in front of the Council of Ministers from becoming EU law.

The UK had opposed 72 measures which went onto the statute book.

"DO YOU remember the lively debate in the Houses of Parliament about new laws to regulate noise from lawnmowers? Do you recall your MP seeking your views about measures to oblige homeowners to have their properties assessed for energy efficiency? Or reading the Government's consultation on the design of desk lamps?
   That is because they are among hundreds of laws which have been passed in the past 20 years without any meaningful public debate in this country. They have been forced upon us by EU directives which are stitched up by the European Commission, rubberstamped by the European Parliament and then ordered to be incorporated into British law.

Now, the think tank Open Europe has totted up the cost to the UK economy of the most burdensome EU laws. It comes to a staggering £27.4billion a year

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM

I cannot be certain of this, but I perceive that much anti immigration is against people who look different that is people with other skin colours than "white anglo saxons"

Given that most of these immigrants come not from Europe but the Indian subcontinent leaving the EU alone will not alter this.

Given that at any time in the past 50 or 100 years the UK government could have addressed this "problem" leaving the EU does not change it one iota.

I have heard it said, quite vocally, in recent months that we should repatriate people. Well lets start with the Angles and the Saxons, then the Jutes, the Scandinavians, the French, the Hugeonauts, the Irish, the Eastern European, the Afro Carribean, and then the Chinese and Asians. That would possibly means there where about 1000 people (or less) remaining in the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM

I cannot be certain of this, but I perceive that much anti immigration is against people who look different that is people with other skin colours than "white anglo saxons"

Given that most of these immigrants come not from Europe but the Indian subcontinent leaving the EU alone will not alter this.

Given that at any time in the past 50 or 100 years the UK government could have addressed this "problem" leaving the EU does not change it one iota.

I have heard it said, quite vocally, in recent months that we should repatriate people. Well lets start with the Angles and the Saxons, then the Jutes, the Scandinavians, the French, the Hugeonauts, the Irish, the Eastern European, the Afro Carribean, and then the Chinese and Asians. That would possibly means there where about 1000 people (or less) remaining in the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM

Ok then, Nigel. Nice clear question. How will exiting the EU give us back our sovereignty or reduce immigration?

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval and the borders have always been under our control. No matter what Farage, Johnson, Murdoch or Rothermere have told you.

No, the EU could pass laws without our approval. With the exception of certain items on which we retained a 'veto', the passing of laws was by a majority vote (or, sometimes a 'qualified majority' vote).
We did not (and, currently, do not) have control of our borders. We are required to allow free passage of EU members across our borders. We can only check that they are actually EU members. We even allowed this immediately for certain 'accession' states (where other states delayed the acceptance of these persons).

Clearly your question is based on a misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:30 PM

Ok then, Nigel. Nice clear question. How will exiting the EU give us back our sovereignty or reduce immigration?

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval and the borders have always been under our control. No matter what Farage, Johnson, Murdoch or Rothermere have told you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:15 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM
"Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond."
Sorry Nigel - got tired of trying to get you to respond to anything ]
If you can'rt see a connection to what you said about uncontrolled immigration and the link I posted there doesn't seem a lot of point trying again
I don't agree with much you say but I would like a Brexiteer to make a case for his beliefs on

Sorry, that still makes FA sense. Nor does it give me any clue about something you have asked me to which I have not responded.

If you are unable to actually ask a question, and direct it to me, do not be surprised if I do not answer it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM

"Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond."
Sorry Nigel - got tired of trying to get you to respond to anything ]
If you can'rt see a connection to what you said about uncontrolled immigration and the link I posted there doesn't seem a lot of point trying again
I don't agree with much you say but I would like a Brexiteer to make a case for his beliefs on

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 01:58 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM
"Yes we do. "
'Course we do - there has never been such a thing as 'uncontrolled immigration' - that its another of the Faragist lies
THIS IS HOW THE STATE CONTROLS IMMIGRATION
Nigel is as bad as the worst when it comes to refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis
Still no comment Nigel - thought not!
Jim Carroll

That must be a record. ask a question (almost) and complain, in the same thread, that there has been no response. I have not 'refused to comment'.

Jim,
Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM

Doncha just know you have 'em by the short and curlies when they starts talking down to you again
As predictable as Brexit being a fuck up - every time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM

"The Financial Times has truly outdone itself with this unintentionally hilarious article from Economics Editor Chris Giles complaining that the British economy has actually been doing too well since the referendum. Which is an interesting position for supposedly the world’s leading financial newspaper to take…

Not content with just being mystified by the fact that people failed to do as they were told in the referendum, the FT is now bemused as to why the markets haven’t done as the FT wants either. Giles bemoans the fact that “relatively benign economics has emboldened politicians to harden their Brexit demands and refuse to compromise” and declares that “it is now too late for markets or the UK economy to exercise much discipline on Britain’s politics before the scheduled exit date of March 29”. Translation: it’s too late for a financial or economic crash to scare people into doing what the FT says they they should do…"

Don't you just luv it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM

From the gruniard link above:
Theresa May, then home secretary, proudly stated in 2013 that her aim was to make the country a “hostile environment” for illegal immigrants. Since then the government has introduced ever more aggressive and intrusive checks.
Seems a spiffing idea to me, otherwise every Tom Dick and terrorist wouldbe invading our shores.Of course we never fell for that Schengen zone dreamed up by the globalists, that has spent the last couple of years unravelling.
In Jimmie's quaint world we would be demanding reparations off Hengist and Horsa, and William the conqueror, to name but a fanciful few.
We have a very thorough system for sifting those entitled to enter and those that are not. If the rest of the EU took the same care we would not have illegal immigrants crossing the channel in cockleshell boats.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM

I can't help looking at these things through maths and formal logic.

Immigration is made up of two parts A and B. The declared government goal was that A+B must be less than C. Whether you can control A or not does not prevent the goal being reached providing (i) you can control B to any level you desire and (ii) A is less than C.

So if the immigration from the EU could not be restricted (which it could, but let's overlook that detail), it does not prevent the UK controlling its immigration to (almost) any level if it so wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM

"Yes we do. "
'Course we do - there has never been such a thing as 'uncontrolled immigration' - that its another of the Faragist lies
THIS IS HOW THE STATE CONTROLS IMMIGRATION
Nigel is as bad as the worst when it comes to refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis
Still no comment Nigel - thought not!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM

No, we didn't/don't have control of immigration as the EU insists on "freedom of movement"

Yes we do.

Firstly, non EU immigration has always been higher than EU immigration. That will not alter one iota.

Secondly, the rights of the UK to control it's borders are not undermined by the freedom of movement for EU citizens. I suggest you read the following to get the facts right.

Can the UK Control Its Borders if It Remains in the EU?

The complaint about restricting the rights to work and live in the EU by UK citizens is still valid as leaving the EU will make it more difficult. Not impossible, just difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM

Even so, DMcG, of the 4 choices presented the top two were Immigration and Sovereignty. We had control of both with the EU.
No, we didn't/don't have control of immigration as the EU insists on "freedom of movement". Once we leave (if it ever happens) we will be able to put restrictions on those who enter the UK from the EU.
Otherwise why are some of the Leavers here complaining that leaving will restrict the ability of them (or their families) to move to, and work in the EU?

Some consistency in the discussion would help.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM

Even so, DMcG, of the 4 choices presented the top two were Immigration and Sovereignty. We had control of both with the EU. The lie that the EU controlled both our laws and our borders was well established.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:30 AM

I have looked a little more into that survey and it has some severe technical flaws, of which the most serious is they suggested the reasons for leaving. But it is perfectly possible the reason for voting Leave was not any of their choices. I have said before that the thing that tool me closest to voting Leave was how Greece was dealt with. There was a problem, certainly, but there were other ways of sorting out the issue.

Similarly, the thing which would make me most inclined to vote Leave at the moment is the rise of the alt-right across Europe, and its potential effect if enough MEPs were elected. But even that would be a complicated balance, because I would have to make judgements on how the separation of powers within the EU constrains that, for example, compared to an unconstrained UK government. I would still vote remain, I believe, but it would be a complicated process. And not something the "choice of four reasons" from the survey would encompass.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM

I think analysis of data from the Centre for Social Investigation has more credibility than a gruniard hack.

It is a shame the the two top values they were voting for (Immigration and Sovereignty) will not be affected in the slightest by leaving the EU.
Is there some part of leave you have a problem with understanding?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:57 AM

Very good points by Gary Younge in the Guardian

Many working-class leavers were not motivated by self-interest, but by values

Clip from the article

The UK making its own rules came a close second out of four (immigration was first) in the reasons why people voted leave.

It is a shame the the two top values they were voting for (Immigration and Sovereignty) will not be affected in the slightest by leaving the EU. But then again, I suppose nobody told them that. Oh, hang on, no one told me either. I wonder how I knew?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of immigration is a racist.

Is that fact? whimsy , opinion or pure boll**ks?

You do say the most ridiculous things.

I notice blaming the russians has totally lost credibility for causing the leave vote majority.


When will people get that the leave campaign won by lying and cheating? If the remain camp would have resorted to illegal use of personal data the result would have been different. Of course our resident apologists for conmen, spivs and cheats will find 'good' excuses...

I dol ike a well reasoned argument. Yours, like those of many remainiacs, starts with "Once upon a time!"
Once again the facts do not support your argument! Worth remembering that this(data leak) was non-political advertising after the referendum – meanwhile the Lib Dems are still under investigation for selling data to the Remain campaign during the referendum…

and we had best not talk about Livingstone, or Jeremy Corbyn in 2012 saying that “yes of course” Israel may engage in “creating a false flag event” to start a war with Iran, or Corbynites succeeded in seizing control of Chuka’s local Labour Party in Streatham last night, or Fiona Onasanya. To name but a few!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:45 AM

If you look at the BBC "Have Your Say" and equivalents, you will see plenty doing that already, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:39 AM

They will just blame remainers, the EU and, of course, Jeremy Corbyn, BWM. Everyone's fault but their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM

I console myself with the sure and certain knowledge that the fools who allowed themselves to be conned by the deceit of the Leave campaign will be just as hurt by BrexShit as those of us who had the presence of mind to see it for what it was, and who took the sensible decision to vote Remain.

And, when the Leave-voters start bellyaching when the pain begins, it will give me great pleasure, not to mention a bloody good laugh, to say, "Don't blame me, you voted for it, now enjoy taking it up the arse - you've got what you asked for".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of "EU bureaucracy/sovereignty" was completely ignorant both of how the EU operates and of how little "sovereignty" we gave up. We have a big say in what laws and regulations are passed or rejected and we have the veto. The vast bulk of EU law is agreed by common consensus without the need to vote (though the vote is always available if required). If we wish to trade with the EU post-brexit we will still have to abide by a large number of regulations, most of which we have no need to argue against but all of which we will have no say in. On top of that, just wait to see the bureaucracy and the sacrifice of sovereignty when we are obliged to do deals with China and the US.

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of immigration is a racist.

But the bottom line is that everyone was asked nothing more than to put a cross against one of two simplistic choices. Not a word, not a reason, not an opinion. A cross.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM

Well, if I am wrong, I am wrong. But if you read what I said, I did not claim that "giving a kicking" was the major or even a highly significant one: I said it was likely to be a big section. 12% seems a fairly big section to me. Of course, I am also not claiming those 12% put it in first place either.

But there is another complication common to all polls. What people say they do and what they actually do often differs. Polls often under represent the Conservative vote in Labour strongholds, because people there there don't like to admit they are Tory. You get the same effect in reverse in Tory areas. In a survey like that people tend to give an acceptable answer rather than the real answer. So the poll gives some information, but like all polls it is mistake to read too much certainty into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM

Arron Banks and Leave.EU fined £120,000 by ICO

When will people get that the leave campaign won by lying and cheating? If the remain camp would have resorted to illegal use of personal data the result would have been different. Of course our resident apologists for conmen, spivs and cheats will find 'good' excuses...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:56 AM

I think the laddie above is confusing sovereignty with globalism.
globalism(Noun) An ideology based on the belief that people, goods and information ought to be able to cross national borders unfettered.

    A socio-economic system dedicated to free trade and free access to markets.
It has upsides and downsides.
There is no question that globalization has been a good thing for many developing countries who now have access to our markets and can export cheap goods. Globalization has also been good for Multi-national corporations and Wall Street. But globalization has not been good for working people (blue or white collar) and has led to the continuing deindustrialization of the west.

Labor can move from country to country to market their skills. True, but this can cause problems with the existing labor and downward pressure on wages.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:41 AM

While we're at it I think a point our Guido Brexiteer made some time ago is worth a close examination
"Production goes to the least cost base. Making uncompetitive widgets just creates unemployment and bankruptcies."
This is of course perfectly true and the implications are that given the aim of standing on our own two feet, the only way Britain industry can survive in the present circumstances is by forcing wages down below the level of its competitors - textiles lap-tops, mobile phones and other electronic goods all have hit the headlines, but I'm sure there are many more   
SLAVE CONDITIONS
If our Guido Gatherer is right, these are the conditions that will need to be imposed on British workers - and as Maggie silenced what little voice workers had in their lives, they'll have to learn to bend down and take it
In the case of the industries we no longer have, Britain will have to buy wherever it is cheapest - I believe the DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC of the CONGO might be a good source for our coal, but it might cost us a bit to keep the refugees from there out - as promised !
There - we've heard it from the horses's mouth
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM

And now the Gibraltar problem raises its head again. All sorted in the Withdrawal Agreement, but if it is reopened, it is reopened for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:36 AM

it seems likely to me that a big section of every election or referendum votes to "give those in power a good kicking" and nothing more, but I not assert it because I don't have the evidence.

Well I do, and you are wrong!

"The most frequently cited reasons for voting Leave were Sovereignty/EU bureaucracy’ and ‘Immigration’ (both mentioned by around 30% of those who said they intended to vote Leave). By far the most frequently cited
reason for voting Remain was ‘Economy’ (mentioned by nearly 40% of those who said they intended to vote
Remain)."
CSI’s data
Interestingly,
‘to teach British politicians a lesson’ has by far the lowest average rank, being ranked last by a full 88% of
Leave voters. This contradicts the widespread claim that Brexit was a ‘protest vote’: i.e., that people voted
Leave as a way of venting deep-seated grievances about things such as inequality, austerity and social
liberalism, rather than because they opposed Britain’s membership of the EU per se.
"Getting rid of Johnny Foreigner to "protect our jobs" is the most likely contender for the cause of the decision - everything else is merely an expression of the opinions of those who put it forward

Nonsense!!!!
The most important reasons for voting Leave was: ‘The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK’, which was ranked first by 49% of Leave voters.

A crying shame that the more rabid remainiacs here have nothing but false arguments and bile to refute well researched facts. Hardly surprising many threads get closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:59 AM

Quite so, Jim. Everyone, leaver or remainer, is entitled to say why they voted as they did. They are not entitled to assume that everyone - or indeed anyone - who voted the same way agrees with those reasons. For example, it seems likely to me that a big section of every election or referendum votes to "give those in power a good kicking" and nothing more, but I not assert it because I don't have the evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:43 AM

Not breaking my oath not to involve with this poster but I think it worth noting that far from "overwhelmingly" this ludicrous decision was taken on a narrow majority which represented a minority of the British people as a whole - 'bout time this shit about 'the wishes of the British people' was put to bed once and for all
If what they wanted came into this at all they would be asked to reconfirm their choice now we have a government that cannot agree with its own party and has to bribe a sectarian party to get anything through Parliament, a people divided, a UK on the brink of fragmentation and major British firms doing a runner to continue filling their coffers by manufacturing their "widgets" elsewhere, including the Europe they supported leaving.
Let's see how many voters support Brexcrement now the implications have become clear - no chance with these 'democrats' at the helm
It is utter bollocks to claim that the voters who did support the decision to leave voted for or against against any of this.... none of these flights of fancy have ever been claimed to feature in their decision
Getting rid of Johnny Foreigner to "protect our jobs" is the most likely contender for the cause of the decision - everything else is merely an expression of the opinions of those who put it forward
There, that's my clearing the phlegm from my throat done for the day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:30 AM

It is striking how Brexiteers have moved from 'it's all sunny uplands'to 'we - ie you whether you voted for, or against, or didn't vote - will bear any short term (undefined)
costs (unquantified) because I think we are replaying the second world war'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:44 AM

What voters in the UK voted overwhelmingly against was the creation of a federal europe, and destruction of the nation state. Two world wars were fought over attempted destruction of the nation state by German domination.
Federalism and the eradication nationhood is a well documented aim of the EU,publicly stated by both Merkel and Macron. If avoiding such a fate has a cost=so be it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM

This fairly well sums up the current situation! (See what I did there?) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:26 AM

Let me elaborate, as assuming UK MPs know what the EU regards as in its best interests is a common failure. They say that the trade loss, or the loss of the 36billion or whatever means the EU will give on on the end. But it is the EU that will decide. The 36billion is a one off payment. Damage to the single market that May arise is a recurring cost. It is perfectly rationale for the EU to decide the 36billion is not worth what they - not the uk - judge the recurring costs to be.

And this is only talking trade. There are other factors that the EU regard as important and the UK cannot decide they are unimportant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

"An email from my MP shows he is thinks he can decide what is in the best interests of the EU."

It will be an education to see how he is rewarded,come the next election!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM

While there is some value in understanding how we got into this mess, especially if there is another referendum, that is far less important than where we go from here.

There seems to be a widespread belief that we are far from adequately prepared for a no deal. Since both sides seem to be assuming the other will give up in the end, a no deal is looking quite likely. There seems to be a chance that May will ask for an extension that is too short to achieve anything in the way of preventing a no deal, or not ask at all. If the time is too short the only agreement in place says only one extension is allowed. However, that does seem to be to be something that could change. An email from my MP shows he is thinks he can decide what is in the best interests of the EU, even though it of obviously the EU that decides what it thinks that is, and disagree with him.

Predicting what will happen next assumes people are acting coherently. So at the moment such predictions are impossible, I fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:50 AM

Ahem.

The referendum was advisory.

and

"MPs have voted overwhelmingly in favour of Theresa May triggering Article 50, meaning the Prime Minister is on track to begin Brexit negotiations with Brussels in March.

By 498 to 114 - a majority of 384 - MPs backed allowing the bill to progress to the next, more detailed legislative stage.

Ten Labour junior shadow ministers and three whips, who are supposed to enforce party discipline, voted against triggering Article 50 in revolt against Mr Corbyn."

To quote your own words:"what most of them(MPs) actually do (give in to realpolitik) is wholly consistent. ..... why both parties "supported brexit" after the referendum. Any party opposing the outcome of the vote would be toast."

To quote myself(again)From: Iains - PM
Date: 14 Jan 19 - 06:20 AM

There is a certain inconsistency in your arguments:
You say they(mps) work for the best interests of the country ...chunder, chunder, chunder....
But!
you also say:"Well the one and only reason that the Tory referendum, then Article 50, were ratified is that the steamroller was already in full flow and that any party which voted against either would have been toast. We call it realpolitik."

seems to me you want to have your toast and eat it, and furthermore accept when it comes to survival Labour MPs would sell their aunts!

For a man that argues the sins of nitpicking you obviously hope your dual standards will not be commented on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:01 AM

"Terrible things, facts!" Steve. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:46 PM

Thanks, John. You can't beat the actual facts of the matter, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:41 PM

All perfectly verifiable by checking the Research Paper to the Referendum Bill. The relevant section 4.1 states:-

"4.1 Types of referendum
This Private Member’s Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement on the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation is introduced. The UK does not have a written codified constitution which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike for example the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum are held is set out in its constitution."

I've emboldened the appropriate sentences.

The whole Research Paper to the Bill can be found here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:17 PM

I'll say this once and for all, not to any specific individual on this forum but to everyone listening. You can check it out until you are blue in the face for all I care, but this is the truth: ready?

Ahem.

The referendum was advisory. It has no constitutional force to create a mandate, no matter what any fly-by-night politician said or whatever any desperado in this forum tells you. That is the fact of tbe matter, the law of the land, and no amount of spin can change that. OK, maybe it doesn't make any bloody difference. But be assured that anyone saying that they are obeying the will of the people with no alternative, or pretending that the referendum gave them a mandate, is lying in their teeth. All constitutionally checkable and not up for alternative opinions. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:27 PM

One of the great lies is that the referendum gave the government a mandate

Mandate:1)    an official order or commission to do something.
       2)    the authority to carry out a policy, regarded as given
             by the electorate to a party or candidate that wins an
             election.

David Cameron has said the British people must "have their say" on Europe as he pledged an in/out referendum if the Conservatives win the election.

The prime minister said he wanted to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give people the "simple choice" between staying in under those new terms, or leaving the EU.
"It is time for the British people to have their say," he said. "It is time to settle this European question in British politics. I say to the British people: this will be your decision."

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
I rest my case!