BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 03:38 PM

Interesting how the "rebels" label has stuck. The overwhelming majority of parliamentarians who oppose no-deal are members of opposition parties. Their job in parliament is to hold the governing party (or coalition) to account and to challenge on matters they disagree with the administration on. You're not a rebel if you're not a Tory and disagree with the Tories. The only people who might deserve the soubriquet "rebel" are those few Tories (a couple of handfuls? We'll soon find out...) who might defy the whip. Funny how these terms gain currency, and how pejorative words tend to be embraced mainly by the right...

Just musing, y'know...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:06 PM

Today marks the anniversary of the death of the Lord Protector Oliver Cromwell.
He was a lad that knew how to sort out rebels, both in and outside Parliament.

I wonder how familiar 007 Cummings is with his game plans?

Will Boris make a 'shoe in' as a defender of Democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 01:17 PM

Scottish Legal appeal produce documents showing that Johnson had planned to prorogue Parliament weeks before he made his announcement
Murkier and murkier
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 12:44 PM

As an added bonus, when Johnson lost his majority, the pound went up on world markets :-)

From The London Economic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 12:22 PM

not too worried about tommy robinson's 'party' - he only got 2,000 votes in the european elections. failed even more spectucarly than NF - but of course the NSM-Frog has far more experience of losing elections. mind you - democracy was never of much interest to grubby little fascists or their supporters who hope to succeed by intimidating people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 11:29 AM

From Lee's resignnation speech:
"I have reached the conclusion that it is not possible to serve my constituents' and country’s best interests as a Conservative Member of Parliament," he said in a statement.
"This Conservative government is aggressively pursuing a damaging Brexit in unprincipled ways. It is putting lives and livelihoods at risk unnecessarily and it is wantonly endangering the integrity of the United Kingdom." Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 11:28 AM

Ha ha. Nice one, Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 11:21 AM

Tidings of great Joy - the Tories no longer have a majority in Parliament
KALOO KALAY
Never mind - perhaps Johnson can sort things out with a £3bn bung to Tommy Robinson's party
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 11:15 AM

while we await the outcome of the machinations of the partisan speaker, an article to ruminate on sovereignty

When both parties agree to give the decision to the people trying to weasel out by labeling it advisory does not quite cut the mustard

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 08:12 AM

Philip Hammond says he is confident of blocking a hard entry, largely dute to Johnson's behaviour over the last few weeks
He accuses "incommers" like Dominic Cummings of infiltrating his his party to try to turn it into "something it is not"
Hope he is right - but either way, the Tory Party has hung itself out to dry; let's hope it hasn't done the same to Britain (teh UK's probably a thing of the past now)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:33 AM

"The LEGAL requirement to display GB stickers has always been the case driving in Ireland"
No it hasn't - stop being arrogantly stupid.

Oh Dear. Give it chapter and verse and still he argues.
Since 2001 many cars have a registration with the EU flag and country of origin inside on the left of the registration plate. Probably post brexit this will no longer be recognized and will require the old style adhesive sticker, and a green card.

These legal requiremens are very easy to check. Shouting does not give veracity.
The requirent has been in place for decades, it s not new. What is new is raising awareness of what I outlined above. SIMPLES

Anyway go and argue with a cabbage and let us get back to the circus that is parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:12 AM

As the UK wants to form an ever-closer union with Trumpistan, I understand that we'll be changing to driving on the right. But to make it easier, Boris has edicted that the change will be made gradually...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:12 AM

"Jim..."
Sorry Steve - a lapse
I'll leave the "politically biased" moderators to sort it out
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:00 AM

Enjoy your trip and don't forget to drive on the right.

I had the opposite experience. Shortly after passing my test in the UK I went to the States and drove *a lot*. Came home, took my son to a piano lesson, then merrily turned onto the right to see a nice friendly bus approaching me ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:56 AM

Jim...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:55 AM

"The LEGAL requirement to display GB stickers has always been the case driving in Ireland"
No it hasn't - stop being arrogantly stupid
I live here - you lurk in the shadows and refuse to reveal even your identity, never ming where you will

For christs sake, will somebody stop this wrecker
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:54 AM

Make sure you have your fold-up warning triangle and headlight deflectors. Oh, and you need spare specs in Spain. Enjoy your trip and don't forget to drive on the right. My very first experience of the latter was when I drove off the ferry at Santander, to be immediately confronted with a huge and complex roundabout. The Spanish drivers were very forgiving that time...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:50 AM

Our sovereignty arises from the fact that we get to elect our MPs every few years. There's no "sovereignty of the people" arising from advisory referendums. If it's advisory, sovereignty remains in the hands of parliament. If I get cirrhosis and my doctor advises me to give up boozing, no matter how strong and how peppered the advice is with dire threats about refusals to give me a liver transplant, etc, my subsequent decision to nip to Sainsbury's to stock up on 25% off six is entirely legal and entirely mine. I retain sovereignty. There's no sovereignty of the doctor.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:41 AM

"We have never at any time needed either EU or GB plates - it is certainly not a "legal requirement" (though English number plates were once very handy at one time if you wanted to avoid being breathalysed")

The LEGAL requirement to display GB stickers has always been the case driving in Ireland

Just like the requirement to change a uk license to an Irish one within 100 days of taking up domicile it has not been enforced.

If you checked your facts there would be far less strife on this forum.
Your bombastic lies do nothing to carry a discussion forward.

RAC website
If you're driving in Ireland, your checklist requirements are:

    A valid UK driving licence.
    A GB sticker on the back of your car – unless your car has 'Euro-plates' (number-plates that show a circle of 12 stars on a blue background).
    Your motor insurance certificate.

The black country letters on a circular white back ground (a European custom) became an international requirement in many countries after the U.N.’s Geneva Convention on Road Traffic (1949) and Vienna Convention on Road Traffic (1968). It was agreed upon that a distinguishing sign of the country of registration had to be displayed on the rear of the vehicle. It also stipulated that the sign could either be placed separately from the registration plate or could be incorporated into the vehicle’s number plate and if the international registration letter was incorporated into the licence plate, it also had to appear on the front number plate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:28 AM

Just when did the people of the UK gain the sovereignty that is being bandied about.

I was always of the impression that sovereignty lay with parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:15 AM

Thanks, both. I did not see the GB sticker issue immediately, as I said. I became aware of it through articles like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:11 AM

For information
We have lived in Ireland for twenty years and have been visiting here regularly since the beginning of the 1970s
We have never at any time needed either EU or GB plates - it is certainly not a "legal requirement" (though English number plates were once very handy at one time if you wanted to avoid being breathalysed)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:07 AM

Justine Greening has jumped ship. Stand as an independent in Putney, Justine. Let's see a good number of "moderate" Tories doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:58 AM

For information only, not a debating point: if your registration plate has that little EU circle of stars with your country's identifier, you don't need a GB sticker at all. You will after a no-deal brexit. DMcG's point is very valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:47 AM

"all UK registered cars in EU countries will have to have a GB sticker."

This legal requirement has been in place for decades and has never been rescinded.
So your point is?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:43 AM

I watched that Newsnight too. Intriguing. If the opposition legislation succeeds, Johnson will undoubtedly want a snap election which he will use to declare that he's the only leader who wants to carry out his Brexit promise, "will of the people" and all that guff. It would be a lie, because he'd no longer be able to carry it out, but he'd have to keep the Brexit party at bay. Whilst I'm far from convinced that he'll get an overall majority, I think it would be too risky for Labour to give him the election. Corbyn would have to frame the refusal in such a way as to say that I'll give you an election once Brexit is resolved. Corbyn might look foolish for refusing an election (or postponing his consent) he's been calling for for a long time, but Johnson will also look foolish when he fails to get Brexit through by 31 October - and he'd have Farage snapping at his heels. Snooker him, Jeremy. Europe has long had the benign effect of bringing Tory leaders crashing down. Long may the tradition continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 03:56 AM

Just reading about a potential flame that has been started in Northern Ireland that I freely admit had not crossed my mind. It seems the 'Get Ready' site explains that all UK registered cars in EU countries will have to have a GB sticker.

It does not need more than a few moments thought to realise how inflammatory that could be for Republican supporters in Northern Ireland. The genius of the Good Friday Agreement lies in the way differences between the two sides are de-emphasised wherever possible. And then we introduce a bureaucratic rule which requires people to identify as the group they are not - not everyone can afford to change their car to buy one registered elsewhere, or adds another means for the Loyalists to proclaim they are wedded to the mainland.   And if people do buy cars registered elsewhere so they do not need the GB sticker, it becomes an even more potent symbol.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:37 AM

"He will prevent them from standing for parliament as Conservative candidates"
He has overstepped his authority to create a Conservative Party in his own image - isn't that what Stalin did. or doesn't it matter to you as a conservative ?
Once a national leader is allowed to get away with that, a Government becomes a monolithing dictatorship with everything that goes with it.
That is what you and yours have accused Corbyn of doing - yet he had made a point of taking the membership with him
Corbyn is a popular (of the (Labour) people) leader) - yours is one who has been appointed by the top echelons of your party and who is now culling those who oppose him and threatening to do the same throughout your whole party
If that doesn't bother you than you'd better get word perfect in singing from your fuehrer's hymn sheet - but please don't try and impose your nodding-dogism on the rest of the country
Johnson is a mindless clown who is happy to act as a poodle to the world's most dangerous mindless degenerate leader
How dare you people allow him to ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:01 AM

Newsnight last night was interesting. While no one was quite counting chickens, the working assumption was that legislation would be passed today obliging the Government to bring back a deal or ask for another extension. Two Labour speakers said it would not support a "no-confidence" motion if Johnson brings one forward. I sincerely hope they are right. The panel of pundits all agreed that that would put the Government in an exceptionally difficult position and unless Cummings really is a genius and has some plan they couldn't see, the Government is snookered. It would actually have to do what it has been blustering away about and come up with a deal or go past 31 October.

It is looking like those famous clocks that Mr Johnson had ticking down to Brexit day may have been set wrongly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:44 PM

From Terry Chritian - Journalist, presenter and Professional Mancunian!

Lets say we brexit on 31 st
October. Can any leave voters tell
what problems in their lives will
now be solved ? How will having
left the EU improve life for you and
your family ? What is the 1 st thing
you're hoping our govt does that
the EU were preventing it from
doing ?

Anyone care to answer that?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:13 PM

Interesting my earlier post was deleted. Yet the insult it was addressing From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:20 PM is allowed to remain.

More political moderation on mudcat?

Of course it does not alter the fact that the shouty minority on here lost the referendum.

All insults from the left remain, structured rebuttals from the right are deleted. why is that I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:32 PM

The best forecast for brexit so far is the end of October, assuming the people's sovereignty is nor usurped by renegades yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:27 PM

But I'm so glad that you found ME to be accurate, Nige. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:17 PM

I think everyone understood what Jim meant, Nigel. Not everyone needs everything spelling out.

Found any good forecasts about brexit yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:52 PM

Jim,
You've made this comment three times now:
If the vote goes against him he has threatened to withdraw the whip from and prevent from standing in future elections, all who voted against him

Boris has not said he will prevent them from standing for parliament. He will prevent them from standing for parliament as Conservative candidates. There is a big difference, as implied in Steve Shaw's comment:
I'm fearing the worst. Though I do wonder what would happen if (a) all the Scottish Tories lost their seats, (b) a considerable number of Tory "rebels" stood as independents and won their seats, as some undoubtedly would,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:17 PM

"the NHS"
I woud guess that, considering the pile of shit that now passes for a Government in Britain, Trump's offer to buy this potential gold mine is being considered at this very moment
Guarding against Civil Disorder doesn't some for free
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:06 PM

They care not a fig about anyone, just as long as their immensely-wealthy pay-masters are able to continue their tax-dodging unhindered. That is all Brexit has ever been about. All the stuff about Sovereignty, unelected bureaucrats, immigrants, £350 million for the NHS, Take Back Control, et al was the horse-puckey they used to play on the fears of ordinary people in order to get their way and persuade them to vote Leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:53 PM

I'm beginning to come around to the idea that the best thing that could happen now that if one of the parties organised a large demonstration in London (there are some planned), marched them up Whitehall and around Parliament and just asked them to sit down, that might clear a few blocked drains
Non-violent and not necessarily long term - just enough to stop a few lines of traffic
Worled wonders in the U'S. with the Civil Rights and scrainly set the shit flying at the fan with CND
I have always had pictures of those supporting the miners walking through the West End
I'd die with a broad grin to see that happen
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:39 PM

The people can go hang for all Johnson, Cummings and their ilk are concerned. Members of their own party are slightly more difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:34 PM

"that he cannot rely on his, and Cummings, bullying to bring his own party into line."
What do you think the 'law and order' and new prisons are all about ?
One of the issues raised by Yellowhammer was the likelihood of civil disorder
Of course - it might all be a coincidence - and my jack's a kipper
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:26 PM

Perhaps Boris considers (if he is capable of such) that he cannot rely on his, and Cummings, bullying to bring his own party into line.

Interesting times indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:25 PM

"If his attempts to have an election were blocked by his proroguement of Parliament."
Surely he is now up his own hole over this one ?
If the vote goes against him he has threatened to withdraw the whip from and prevent from standing in future elections, all who voted against him
Each constituency where this has happened will have to hold elections to select their new MPs - unless all MPs in future are going to ce chosen by the Prime Minister
I'd love to be a fly on those walls
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:57 PM

An interesting speech off Boris. Superficially very wishy washy. Seems to have had the desired outcome of fooling people.

Sun Tzu in three dimensional chess, choreographed by Boris, Moggie and 007Dominic Cummings with a side order of Baldrick.

Should be entertaining!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:43 PM

The rumour is that he will call for an election if the vote goes against him. But as we have remarked, that needs Labour to vote for it. It would have a strange irony if his attempts to have an election were blocked by his proroguement of Parliament.

And yes, I know he said he didn't want an election and the electorate didn't either. If that is not a preparation to say he was forced into it by the antidemocratic people in Parliament I don't know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:20 PM

No election, desptie the afct that Johnson has just made an election speech telling the world how his is going to fight crime and pour money into education
He is going to "persuade our friend in the EU to change their minds about the backstop and get them to agree to sell out their members
A moron who agrees with hs policies say that the Government must be allowed to govern, ignoring the fact that Johnson is proposing to close down parliament so it can't
Just like the barbers cat - all wind and piss - nothing has changed
Johnson's speech was accompanied by mass chanting from the thousands in Whitehall ("rentamob" as the Johnsons of British politics regard them)
Didn't notice the raised-arm salute, but I'm sure that they're being perfected
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 12:57 PM

Strange - I thought I heard the rumble of tanks and keep getting flashes of KEEP AMERICA GREAT - imagination, I hope
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 12:41 PM

"But if the DUP was also weakened, it might be significant."
Position in the Northern counties is obscured by the fact that Governance there has been for over two years
The DUP is in decline and the party riven with scandals
Corbyn's age is of no relevance if he is capable of leading and if the party is run on the lines that he can me democratically replaced when he becomes unfit for the job
It's about time parties were chosen on the basis of their policies and not on the charisma (or otherwise) of who leads them
I'd long ceased voting for any of the bastards when Corbyn came along - our young war criminal Blair did it for me
If the coup is going to be defeated, it will only be by a combination of efforts by the sensible and democratic members of all parties anyway - I'd back Corbyn before any of the others as caretaker leader and certainly before a new kid on the block
Corbyn has had the support of young Labour up to now - pretty well unprecedented for any party - but they have proved they are keeping an eye on how he lives up to their trust - you don't get healthier politics than that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 12:32 PM

One interesting feature should an election be called is that nobody knows where the Labour Party stands on Brexit.

They voted to leave in the referendum
They voted to leave when voting for article 50
They voted to leave in the 2017 General Election
Labour has been bleating consistantly for an election.
Now when they have the opportunity they back off. Is this because their revolving manifesto has a few fatal flaws?
Nothing to do with the idiot McDonnell wanting to sell people's second homes at discounted rates of course.(in Flagrant breach of human rights legislation) He would be torn a new one in the courts before the ink was dry on the paper. But this is the same joker hellbent on nationalising everything. Again in opposition to existing EU legislation.
I wonder what other vote winning wheezes he has up his sleeve prior to an election. A party led by a geriatric and a raging lunatic designing policy soundbites to lose an election. Boris's opposition dream team I would say.

The news just keeps getting better and better, now we have a PM with a pair! What an exciting week! Are we finally taking our country (Constitution) back from Brussels?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:56 AM

I was just asked a question by my wife that I really don't know the answer to - not for the first time, of course.

If an election were called, would there by any significant change in NI parties?

I suspect each individual's vote is sufficiently tied up with other matters that it would not, but that really is guesswork. But if the DUP was also weakened, it might be significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:41 AM

I would quite like Starmer, but I read today that the Corbynista (whoever they are) see Rebbecca Long-Bailey as the natural successor. Not for me, thanks.