Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Mar 19 - 02:26 PM Great to see a JACKBOOT FAVOURER talking about something being on the other foot - innit ? Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 19 Mar 19 - 02:11 PM It is astonishing and simultaneously not in the least out of character to hear the DUP still saying the EU needs to change the deal and some Brexiteers claiming some people saying they might vote differently should be enough to satisfy Bercow's objections. Deliberately blinding yourself to reality is never a good stance. Still, no doubt this all the EU's fault. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 19 Mar 19 - 02:09 PM Nonsense! Just imagine the lefty squeals were the boot on the other foot. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Mar 19 - 01:10 PM Democracy in this country is predicated on the electorate being able to change its mind every few years. The roots of totalitarianism lie in the fear of the electorate changing its mind away from what the people in power prefer. What has become blantantly obvious is that the only deal on the table that is even remotely in the interests of the people in this country is the deal we currently enjoy with the EU as full and influential members. Not perfect, far from it, but there's simply no competition. No one on this forum, despite repeated requests, has been able to tell us what is going to be any good for this country about brexit. Which reminds me of another tenet of democracy, that we entrust the people we elect to act in our best interests. Theresa May has had to be repeatedly reined in since the referendum over her attempts to subvert parliamentary democracy. Targeting the people who complain about the extremely flawed and undemocratic referendum is a classic example of disingenuously choosing the wrong target. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Mar 19 - 12:54 PM Beautiful photograph of a gawking crypto-fascist, Nigel Farage posing in front of the British flag, above the phrase used constantly by the British Empire regarding countries they ruled: IS BRITAIN READY FOR SELF-GOVERNMENT Don'cha love it !! Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 19 Mar 19 - 12:46 PM For an institution whose lineage can be traced back 804 years to Magna Carta, Parliament’s descent from consulting the people to dismissing their response has taken less than four years. It’s worth recalling some of the major stages in its decline. "In June 2015, Parliament voted by a majority of 544 votes to 53 to hold the EU Referendum, rightly recognising that such an important constitutional question could be decided only by the electorate. On best estimates, in June 2016 Britain voted to leave the European Union by 406 parliamentary constituencies to 242. It voted to leave the European Union by 263 voting areas to 119, and by 9 regions to 3. Conservative-held constituencies in 2016 voted to leave by 247 to 80. Labour-held constituencies in 2016 voted to leave by 148 to 84. In contrast, among 2016 MPs, Remain was the preferred option by 486 to 160. In February 2017, MPs voted by 498 votes to 114 to trigger Article 50. At the 2017 General Election, approximately 85 per cent of votes were cast for parties pledging in their manifestos fully to implement the Referendum result." If Brexit is thwarted so is democracy. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Donuel Date: 19 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM There are signs the EU is softening and may let you guys kick the can down the road despite May saying "delay is not a solution". |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 19 Mar 19 - 09:09 AM It's changed now, but this morning the BBC news page, in the second row under the main headline, wrote: PM: I Will Not Speak His Name just above a pictures of May & Bercow. Wow, I thought, she's losing it. Then I noticed that they meant the New Zealand PM in the main story, referring to the multi-murderer. (Quite right too, deprive him of the PR.) But it gave me a wintry sort of laugh. I take my humour where I can find it these days... |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Backwoodsman Date: 19 Mar 19 - 08:54 AM The old ones are the best... |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Donuel Date: 19 Mar 19 - 08:35 AM Our cat Brexit yells to go out but when we open the door he just sits there undecided. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 19 Mar 19 - 03:47 AM There's a slight danger that the EU's forbearance will run out and that they'll tell her to sod off later this week It may not be as slight as all that, thought I don't think it probable. The words 'traitor' and 'traitorous' have been widely abused and thrown at the slightest provocation, so I am hesitant about using them at all. But since a near text book example would be to encourage a foreign power to act against your government's stated wishes, I can't think of a more appropriate term for Iain Duncan Smith's and Owen Patterson's reported attempts to persuade Hungary and other countries to veto any request from the UK for an extension. I see two routes to a no-deal as live at the moment. The more likely one is that the EU does not agree to an extension, most likely because of a veto. Should that happen, Bercow will not be able to allow a vote on the deal unless a substantial change is made, under his own ruling. So some amendment will be made to the deal - perhaps by making explicit mechanisms for the rest of Parliament to have a role in the future negotiations. Should Bercow not agree this is sufficient, or should that fail, we could be into no-deal. The less likely one is that the EU agrees to an extension, but attaches conditions of such severity that Parliament does not accept the extension. As this would require people who votes against no-deal to now prefer it to the conditions, they would have to be very extreme. (A third path opens if an extension permits a complete restart of the negotiations, but I do not think that is something the EU would consider.) |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 18 Mar 19 - 08:12 PM Re ipad: Quick, tell me how you disable that feature. Drives me mad, that does. I spend more time deleting stuff than writing. (Not always a bad idea, though...) |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:48 PM Hooray! I've found a way to stop my ipad from "correcting" me like that. From now on any mistakes online will be my mistakes, I hope. Previous "oops" fixed by a mudelf and correction deleted, so this post may seem non sequitur. But it's cute so it's staying. *---mudelf |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:40 PM She could try to put a motion which sets aside the convention, but I'm pretty sure she will never get a majority for that. There's a slight danger that the EU's forbearance will run out and that they'll tell her to sod off later this week. I doubt it and I think they'll give her their long extension. If you take my meaning. Hope springs eternal. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Mar 19 - 06:57 PM John Bercow has clearly made the only possible ruling that is allowed. He'll never get his peerage from a Tory government now, but then maybe there won’t be one around for long. One suggested way round would be to prorogue the session, and then have a new one, and run the old deal through again. Apparently the Queen would need to approve it, but that would mean interfering in the political process - and the same would be said if she refused. Since the last time Westminster was prorogued in the middle of a session was in 1628, by Charle. Since the ultimate outcome a few years later it had him getting his head chopped off, she might perhaps be a tad disinclined to risk it. Perhaps the next antiquated procedure they'll try reviving would be the Act of Attainder, where a person could be executed without any need for a trial, last used in 1728. I suspect they may never have got around to covering that when the death penalty was scrapped, in which case that death penalty might still apply. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Mar 19 - 06:24 PM I'm getting a bit sick of Laura bloody Kuenssberg's obvious bias. She insinuated strongly on the Beeb news that Bercow has "gone beyond his remit," leaning on her possibly unjustified assertion that that is a widespread view in the Commons (has she done a poll?), when he manifestly has done no such thing. I bet the Mail's headline writers will have a field day tomorrow, and, while they won't bother, they could claim to have her onside. She sure is a worthy successor to the right-wing Nick Robinson. And I can hardly wait for Andrew Neil on Thursday night... |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 18 Mar 19 - 03:00 PM Constitutional crisis Berkow has ruled that it would be unconstitutional to vote on the same bill three times Hardly a crisis! Bercow had wide support from both sides of the house and acted within clearly stated precedents from Erskine May that date back to the 1600's. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Mar 19 - 02:14 PM Constitutional crisis Berkow has ruled that it would be unconstitutional to vote on the same bill three times Wonder if any brewery is looking for anybody to organise piss-ups - don't look here Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 18 Mar 19 - 01:13 PM he pulls out yet another example of the establishment defending property over the welfare of the British people - profit before people every time Actually it is the EU protecting people's rights. I carefully explained this to you above. ............... Oh Dear !! |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 18 Mar 19 - 01:04 PM From the BBC's Assistant Political Editor. Says it all. Speaker's decision is: - Good for Brexiteers cos it makes No Deal more likely. - Good for Remainers cos it makes long delay more likely. The only big loser is... the PM. Anybody fancy a Kit-Kat? |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:46 PM "You are still encouraging him, Jim." Nah - I'm exposing himn for the eejit he is How does he react to his being exposed - he pulls out yet another example of the establishment defending property over the welfare of the British people - profit before people every time This really is fun Now we have the words of a 17th century religious zealot - gets better and better Think I'll leave it there - he's done what I wanted tyo do far better than I ever could State dick-suckers, the lot of them Jim |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM Mr Cromwell had the rights of it in his speech to Parliament! 20 April 1653, London, England It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice. Ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government. Ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money. Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your God. Which of you have not bartered your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth? Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defiled this sacred place, and turned the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation. You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance. Your country therefore calls upon me to cleanse this Augean stable, by putting a final period to your iniquitous proceedings in this House; and which by God's help, and the strength he has given me, I am now come to do. I command ye therefore, upon the peril of your lives, to depart immediately out of this place. Go, get you out! Make haste! Ye venal slaves be gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors. In the name of God, go! |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:28 PM Ya beat me to it, DMcG. Here's the Beeb's report: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47614074 I must admit I'm surprised too. Guess the DUP aren't going to get their little moment in the spotlight after all. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:21 PM Bercow refuses MV3 without substantial change I admit this surprises me; I thought he would find a way to let it through. So I am sure we will hear a lot of sound and fury, while May's team is probably relieved as it looked as if they were going to pull it themselves. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:07 PM British people can go and sleep in the park rather than allow them the use of vacant property. I think the stupidity of that argument has been robustly refuted innumerable times but you still insist on raising it every 5 minutes. That says a lot about the person constantly raising the issue. The Equality and Human Rights Commission Article 1 of the First Protocol: Protection of property. Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:58 AM You are still encouraging him, Jim. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: bobad Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:46 AM Brexit bar |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:41 AM These patriots make me howl They say they love Britain but the thought that British workers might actually have a say in their own lives makes 'em break out in a cold sweat and reach for the shotgun They claim it is "Anglophobic" to criticise British policy, yet have no problem denigrating elected politics - even at a racist and sexist level, if their politics don't suit If poor peoplke are in trounble (as in the Grenfel Tower catastrophe) ordinary British people can go and sleep in the park rather than allow them the use of vacant property Their interest lies in defending the right wing establishment and British big business and the possessions of the wealthy, the British people can go stuff themselves as far as they are concerned - establishment lackeys - the ***** lot of 'em Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:54 AM Whatever they has=ve done in the past they have backed a destructive policy up to the point where they realised who destructive of their own interests and have then done a runner, leaving the country the profess to acting in tehe interests of, up shit's Creel big-time Since you've resorted to personal insulting again, you are, and always have been a rich man's arse-licker Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:31 AM There is another little subtlety that is easy to overlook. What was agreed last week was that May's deal was this: === (2) agrees that, if the House has passed a resolution approving the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship for the purposes of section 13(1)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 by 20 March 2019, then the Government will seek to agree with the European Union a one-off extension of the period specified in Article 50(3) for a period ending on 30 June 2019 for the purpose of passing the necessary EU exit legislation; and (3) notes that, if the House has not passed a resolution approving the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship for the purposes of section 13(1)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 by 20 March 2019, then it is highly likely that the European Council at its meeting the following day would require a clear purpose for any extension, not least to determine its length, and that any extension beyond 30 June 2019 would require the United Kingdom to hold European Parliament elections in May 2019. === What is easily missed is that clause (3) applies if the negotiated agreement has not even been put to MV3. Couple this with Hammond's statement: ======= "We will only bring the deal back if we are confident that enough of our colleagues, and the DUP, are prepared to support it, so that we can get it through parliament. We’re not going to keep presenting it if we haven’t moved the dial," said the chancellor, Philip Hammond. ======= and the likelihood of asking the EU for a long extension increases significantly. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:37 AM The way things have gone so far, can you see all that being passed through all the required stages in the next 11 days? Yes, since you ask. Remember that the Commons have already voted to change the date. That if the date is not changed we get a no deal which the House has also already voted against. That the change has been promised by the Government as part of the debates. That the process is via a statuary instrument, which is not necessarily a new law: ==== Mr Grieve Just to remind the Secretary of State: there was a second part to the question, which is equally critical. It is that the Government will have to bring a statutory instrument to the House to alter the departure ?date set out in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. In those circumstances, I assume that the Government are undertaking to do exactly that. Michael Gove The Prime Minister and others have said that previously, and I am happy to place on the record once again at this Dispatch Box exactly that commitment. ==== Of course, the ERG will do its damnedest to disrupt the will of Parliament as expressed in its earlier votes. I would expect nothing less of them. And the Government's inability to organise anything is a significant risk. But given that it is not rare to get such things through in less than 24hours, certainly it can be done, assuming the EU have agreed an extension date. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:15 AM "Even if the EU agree to the request, there needs to be legal agreement in parliament to cancel the Brexit " Grasping at straws tantamount to "We've dropped you in the klarts but it's too late to do anything about it" The people who are fighting for this are nutters like LORD SNOOTY who, with one hand wags the flag and with the other, makes sure his own investments are safe by shifting them out of Britain It's great to see Dyson and AND HIS FELLOW BREXITEERS doing similar - rats and sinking ship springs to mind. THIS FELLER ACTUALLY MADE IT A PIECE OF ADVICE UP TO DATE PICTURE HERE What a fine mess you and yours've got Britain into Nigel Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Backwoodsman Date: 18 Mar 19 - 02:46 AM Well, the March edition of The New Yorker has a pretty unequivocal view of the idiocy of BrexShit and its supporters, who seem to have completely lost contact with reality and crossed into a parallel universe. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:15 PM Yes, amending the date could be dealt with quickly. If the EU agree to the request. We can't unilaterally delay Brexit. Even if the EU agree to the request, there needs to be legal agreement in parliament to cancel the Brexit which is already in law for 29 March. The way things have gone so far, can you see all that being passed through all the required stages in the next 11 days? |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 17 Mar 19 - 12:27 PM In the past, laws have gone through the entire process in less than 24 hours. Amending the date if it turns out to be required can be changed by a much simpler process than a new law. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 17 Mar 19 - 11:41 AM The default position is that we leave on the 29th, deal or no deal. Until the law is physically changed we leave on the 29th. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: skarpi Date: 17 Mar 19 - 10:29 AM This is the BIGGEST MISTAKE FOR UK EVER , your bank loans are going to cost more , the food is going cost more , everything is going cost more , and the space between the poor and rich are going to get bigger , Iceland may not have EU ..but it´s hard living up here , everything cost so much ...and there is a saying in Iceland , which is : Þetta reddast ,it mean it will be ok some how ? ..but it does not ....if you want to go this there so many things that has to change before you do . all the best and best of luck Skarpi Iceland . |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM Well, Steve, as the Brexiteers insist she is a Remainer, I suppose that proves what they claim about remainers and repeat voting .... |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:02 AM I think this will have to be the last vote (which is probably why Bercow didn't make a ruling on it) because the European summit is on the 21st. For weeks she's cried Wolf. Now there really IS a wolf. And a real bullet in the chamber of the gun she's been holding to the nation's head and spinning (in both senses of the word) round and round. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Mar 19 - 07:24 AM Funny to think that she will keep having votes on the same thing until she gets the "right" result. Precisely the sentiment expressed by fear-laden brexiteers when there's a suggestion of another referendum... |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: The Sandman Date: 17 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM “Much unhappiness has come into the world because of bewilderment and things left unsaid.” ? Fyodor Dostoevsky “It's funny. All you have to do is say something nobody understands and they'll do practically anything you want them to.” ? J.D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: The Sandman Date: 17 Mar 19 - 06:04 AM what a state of confusion, it was never explained to people that the referendum was advisory that parliament had the last say., these people could noit organise a piss up in a brewery |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:21 PM May should not bring her deal back to parliament for a third vote until she has pulled her finger out and caught up with ALL the legislative programme that has been on the back burner - including the care act green paper which is nearly 2 years late already. Until then we stay in the EU - NOT NEGOTIABLE. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 16 Mar 19 - 01:33 PM I can't say about any mudcatters, but Nigel Farage has been pretty clear he has no intention of doing it. Photo-ops at the start, end, and perhaps a couple along the way, but the idea of dong the whole thing - no way! I don't know, but my guess he has left them to it already. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: peteglasgow Date: 16 Mar 19 - 10:38 AM i see nigel farage and chums have set off from sunderland on an epic march for brexit and freedom. are any mudcatters accompanying the nicotine-stained man frog? can anyone update us on their progress? How many pubs passed so far? |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:49 PM Once again, a Brexiteer blames Remainers You may remember Tim Martin decided to go round his pubs giving speeches in favour of Brexit. It is *just* possible, is it not, that some remainers decided to drink elsewhere as a consequence? Or that people in general don't want to be lectured when they go out for an evening out? Pubs in general are not doing well, but for those I have seen, Martin's baby is doing appreciably less well than the average. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Mrrzy Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM A feudal gesture? |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:11 PM We've yet to reach 1984 - sobering thought Jim |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:09 AM We should dread reaching post 1415, as Agincourt may by then have been avenged... |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:01 AM And that, my darlings, was post no. 1066. Hahaha- well observed, Bonnie. But there is a long way to go to get to 1688... |