BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 07:04 PM

Brexit, Jeri. Which is what I wanted this thread to be all about. And it's my thread, if ownership of threads is allowed. And the chap you are affecting to scratch your head about had an agenda that was anything but. Good work on your friend bobad, but you might like to reflect your earlier post. And, before you say it, I know I've been no saint. But I'm trying, whether you see it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 06:34 PM

Bob, you don't actually know, but it's good to have something to fight about, isn't it? This is the mindset here now. Forget the subject and go after people because it's fun, and it makes your ego happy.

What's the subject again?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 02:08 PM

Guys, the mods are working to prevent the Resident Right-Wing Extremist from wrecking the thread any more than he's already done. Let's not let his cronies and supporters take over where he was forced to leave off, eh?

Ignore the Agents Provocateurs, please!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 02:01 PM

"The guy who was arrested was Assange, which Iains pointed out "
Actually, the guy I wa referring to was President Omar al-Bashir of Sudan
Iaian's tripped over himself denying it was his friend Bashar Hafez al-Assad who had been arrested - he likes to defend those he supports, no matter what it takes
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:43 PM

Steve beat me to it. I could also add that a cut and paste of the complete post seems rather superfluous when a simple reference will do, but I won't because I am no nitpicker :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:35 PM

Words like ‘Birds’ and ‘Feather’ spring to mind. {{{heartfelt sigh}}}

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:29 PM

It seems the provoked is the guilty pary in the eyes of some (noticeably the racist provocation features nowhere on some people's Richter scale
Little wonder we have no Muslim and few Irish contributors here
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:14 PM

You certainly don't seem to know of a really effective way of keeping this website decent and clean, Jeri. I for one am exceptionally grateful that his gratuitous and routine nastiness, which you never criticised or acted against, is no longer accepted here. "Simple presence" my fat bottom. Or perhaps you agreed with his detestable opinions and his attack modus operandi...

Nigel, well done for your best nitpick ever. Everyone and his dog knows that the term "roaming charges" refers to the EXTRA charges you used to incur for using your data outside your own country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:07 PM

From Today's Irish Times (apologies to S.T.C.)
Jim Carroll


The Rime of the Ancient Brexiter
(Scene: The entrance to a polling booth, somewhere in England, in the distant future. A trio of Eurosceptic voters is interrupted by a bearded old man, who looks like a strange mixture of Michael Gove, Nigel Farage, and Jacob Rees-Mogg.
He grabs one of them by the hand.)

It is an ancient Brexiter
And he stoppeth one of three
“By thy long gray beard and glittering eye,
Now wherefore stopp’st thou me?”

He holds him with his skinny hand,
“There was a bus,” quoth he.
“Hold off! Unhand me, greybeard loon!”
Eftsoons his hand dropped he.

“The bus was cheered, the Bo’sun* steered,
From Finchley to Furness
Three-fifty millions we would save:
‘Let’s fund the NHS’.” (*old nautical abbreviation for “Boris Johnson”)

The Sun came up upon the left
The Mail came up the right
And though the vote was sorely cleft
We won, and danced all night

The bus it powered on, pell-mell
On hardest Brexit bent
We’d triumphed, so we sent to hell
The forty-eight per cent

But now another ’lection came
Twas early (Missus) May
And yet we froze in icy wastes
And somehow lost our way

The ice was here, the ice was there
The ice was all around
The Bo’sun said if May were gone
We’d once-more forward bound

“God save thee, ancient Brexiter
What memory haunts thee thus?”
“I backed the Bo’sun’s plan at first,
Then pulled a double-cross!”

Yet still the sunlit uplands loomed
And soon the ice did crack
We passed the Irish Border line
With two words: “stop” and “back”

And now a great bird hove in view
As if sent by the gods
Its wing-span covered ten MPs
Its name was Nigel Dodds

The back-stop was a hellish thing,
It warned - and would work woe.
If Dodds would fly behind our ship
The back-stop had to go.

And so we tried to ditch that stop
To th’ task we downward hunkered
But our enemies did anchor drop
Till we were Jean-Claude Junckered

Then the wind - alas! – it droppeth too
How to move we had no notion
Ours a tainted ship of state
Upon a tainted ocean

Day after day, day after day
No mast or top-sail flew
And all the while to Captain May
We were a ghastly crew

Yet flew we still the Brexit flag
For something drove us on
Till another spectre made us sag
Its name was Bercow, John

“Order! Order!” everywhere
It said, as hearts did sink
“Order! Order!” everywhere
It drove us all to drink

We tabled motions by the hour
The votes were chock-a-block
“Aye-aye”, “nay-nay”, and so it went
“The ayes have it - unlock!”

But still no sign of breakthrough came
The crew remained at odds
Until despairing - and for shame!
I shafted Nigel Dodds!

The old man gazed with countenance sad
His eyes nine fathom deep
It looked as if a conscience (bad)
Had long disturbed his sleep

But now he grabbed the hand again
And bade once more be heard
He’d leave the Eurosceptic
With this, one final word:

“He playeth best, who loveth best
All creatures great and small
Yea - even the forty-eight per cent
God loveth them and all.”

The Brexiter, whose eye is bright
Whose beard is aged with hoar,
Is gone, and leaves the voter
Shook at poll-booth door

He went in like one that hath been stunned
His face was creased with pain
A sadder and a wiser man
He voted to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 12:12 PM

The guy who was arrested was Assange, which Iains pointed out before his post was deleted for god-know-what-reason (except maybe his simple presence in a thread provokes people who are not in enough control of themselves to not be provoked, and go down that off-topic rabbit hole pulling the whole thread in with them, but what do I know?)

As for Brexit, I wonder if that will be delayed until forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 11:24 AM

I'm sure there are other things but I must admit liking this little synopsis

Since Brexit negotiations began...

...the EU has
ended roaming charges
banned hidden charges for paying online
given free rail travel to teenagers
funded thousands in medical research
protected workers' mobility rights
adopted the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive
improved food standards
reached trade deals with Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, Mexico, Australia and New Zealand

I'm not sure where that was copied from, or whether it was made up on the spot. I've just checked a couple of the points for accuracy:

...the EU has
ended roaming charges
This should be 'limited roaming charges to the roaming charges you pay in your home nation, with limitations' Here There can still be additional charges if you use the internet above a certain level.


...the EU has
given free rail travel to teenagers
This should be 'given 30 days free rail travel to 18 year olds' details: Here

Usual remain tactics of make enough statements and hope the gullible will take them all at face value.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 10:53 AM

I'm sure there are other things but I must admit liking this little synopsis

Since Brexit negotiations began...

...the EU has
ended roaming charges
banned hidden charges for paying online
given free rail travel to teenagers
funded thousands in medical research
protected workers' mobility rights
adopted the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive
improved food standards
reached trade deals with Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, Mexico, Australia and New Zealand

...the UK has
got through 3 Brexit ministers
changed UK passports to blue
spent £66 billion on failed Brexit
given MPs two payrises

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:54 AM

"Maybe you're thinking of Sudan's Omar al-Bashir"
That makes sense Jon - pity
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:51 AM

it does not change the fact that the EU would not discuss anything before the money

I don't blame them! The UK owes the EU billions. If someone owed me that much money I would not begin negotiations unless they agreed to pay what was due either!

Here is a simple explanation of why the UK should pay this money.

Everything you need to know about the Brexit “divorce bill”

That we would not have to pay anything was yet another lie by the leave campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:33 AM

Maybe you're thinking of Sudan's Omar al-Bashir. He has been arrested

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:33 AM

DMcG wrote: Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:24 AM

Quite a lot of criticism of the BBC, especially John Humphries, in giving David Davis an easy ride while showing no ability to recognise the reality that it is not up to the UK to say what can be done, but it needs a joint agreement where the UK is the supplicant:

Your use first I think, and it does not change the fact that the EU would not discuss anything before the money. That was not a 'Little Englander' ploy. It was an EU ploy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:25 AM

Sorry to be the brearer of bad news, but the report suggests the Army has arrested Assad
I'f it's true you've lost ANOTHER ROLE MODEL
Fingers crossed eh !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 08:37 AM

Nothing to do with all this, but don't want to open another thread yet
Did Pat mishear a news report or has Assad been arrested ?
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 08:07 AM

...that their motivations ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 08:05 AM

According to COllins dictionary:


A supplicant is a person who prays to God or respectfully asks an important person to help them or to give them something that they want very much.


Whether money is offered as part of that plea has no bearing on the relationship. I agree with DtG that the money is already owed, but even if it was not, its presence merely showed the intensity of the plea.

It is odd that Brexiteers often state their there motivations are due by principles other than money - such as sovereignty - but somehow assume the EU is only interested in the money.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 07:02 AM

So why did the EU refuse to discuss anything until Mrs May agreed to cough up the cash?

Not sure what you mean here, Stanron. By 'cough up the cash' do you mean pay the money that was rightly due to the EU in long term commitments or something else?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 06:54 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: This is just more little-Englandism.

So why did the EU refuse to discuss anything until Mrs May agreed to cough up the cash?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 06:24 AM

The brilliant John Crace hits the nail on the head once again! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 05:37 AM

"The EU is the supplicant and Thereasa May's big failure is to not use this to her advantage."

This is just more little-Englandism. Now let's suppose that May can somehow concoct a threat to the EU that they won't get our money. Blackmail, sort of thing. Exactly how do you think that would help in future trade negotiations? I'll tell you what: the little offshore island of 66 million would suffer a damn sight more than the bloc of over 400 million that has Germany as its engine room. Something like half our trade is with the EU, not to speak of the heavy involvement of the services sector. You want to compromise all that by doing a Rees-Mogg and playing all awkward. You're living in the 19th century, mate. Britannia don't rule no waves any more. Hubris goeth before a fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 05:00 AM

Posted by a Facebook friend

I wrote this post just before the referendum in June 2016, just before the referendum. It went sort-of viral, with over 5,000 shares and lots of 'likes'. I said I would re-post after a decent interval. I got some things wrong; for instance, I missed the Irish border question completely. For information really.
Brexit research 17th June 2016
I've been fairly quiet on the Brexit question for a few days. That's because I've been putting in some serious time running down the facts behind the hateful rhetoric that is being spewed by both sides (although principally by the 'leave' campaign). Those of you who know me well will know that I'm something of a data freak. I like facts, not opinion, especially verifiable, reliable facts. I've tried to look for credible sources, including official data from here and overseas, articles and books by established experts, independent research and properly audited and/or peer reviewed economic data. Posting all the data would take too long; even a list of references would mean that no-one would read this post, since the attention span of a butterfly seems standard these days. Instead, here are my conclusions.
1. The leave campaign exists primarily to serve the political ambitions of a small group of far-right politicians. Leaving Europe will, in their view, overturn our already far-right government and allow them to seize power, shifting the country towards a one-party state. This conclusion is based on the lack of evidence for any economic, social or national security benefit from leaving the EU.
2. The NHS will cease to exist in a very short space of time; all of the likely wielders of power in a post-Brexit country (Gove, Johnson, Duncan-Smith, Farage, Fox et al) are on record (repeatedly) as being strongly in favour of dismantling the NHS, selling it to private companies (many of which they have a financial interest in) and moving to a grossly inefficient and unfair insurance based model like the discredited pre-Obamacare US model.
3. If we leave the EU our economy is likely to go swiftly into recession, as there are no plans to replace our trade deals with the EU; just vague hopes that the EU will be nice to us. That's highly unlikely; if we leave, and it appears that we are doing well, the EU itself may break up completely. The big players are not going to let that happen. It's far more likely that they will make it as hard as possible, so they can say to any wavering nations 'see, look how awful it is if you leave'. Expect punitive and harsh trade barriers from day one. (If you want evidence of this, it's worth looking at what French and German politicians are saying). The Americans will not treat trade deals with the UK as a priority, as stated by President Obama and both the current candidates for the Presidency.We already trade with India and China, and there is no good reason why this trade would suddenly increase. In any case, most of the trade is imports.
4. Our economy is heavily dependent on the financial services sector. One of the main reasons for the growth and success of the City of London as a financial centre is the close links with other European centres like Paris and Frankfurt. Major players (including most of the big banks, insurance companies and hedge funds) are looking at shifting their operations elsewhere if the UK leaves the EU.
5. There will be little or no change in the rate of immigration. Free movement of EU nationals will stop, but this is a small part of immigration as a whole. There will be no effect on refugees from Syria, Asia and sub-Saharan Africa, other than to shift our border from Calais (under an agreement with France) to Dover. This is likely to make it much easier for refugees to get here, and will probably swamp our already inadequate immigration appeals system. Why immigration is an issue is puzzling. All the credible and current research says that immigrants are net contributors to the economy (around £20 billion since 2006), are less likely than UK born people to use public services like the NHS and schools, are much less likely to claim benefits, commit crimes at a lower rate than UK citizens, do not take jobs away from UK citizens (there is strong evidence that they actually create jobs by starting and running businesses) and do not drive down wages (Wages are linked to government fiscal and economic policy, not immigration rates).
6. We will be governed by institutions that are less democratic than those in the EU. Our parliament currently has over 800 unelected lawmakers, and a cabinet that can include people who have never stood for election in their lives. The EU parliament is an entirely elected body, and is the only EU body that can pass and ratify legislation.
7. The so-called 'third sector' in this country (including most charities, housing associations and voluntary organisations) are heavily dependent on funding from EU sources such as regional development grants. The people who actually write the bids for such funding, and those who run such organisations, are speaking with pretty much the same voice. The current austerity measures have slashed their budgets to the bone, and EU funding is in many cases the only thing that is keeping them afloat. This will disappear, and the leave campaign has no plans at all for how this will be replaced. The most likely scenario (according to those who actually work in this sector) is that many organisations will simply disappear, and their services with them. It should be noted that Cameron's 'big society' idea meant that many services that were fully funded by the government now reside in the the third sector, following swingeing cuts in public services. The third sector is now doing stuff that is essential for the well being of many people, including children, old people, disabled people and the mentally and physically ill.
8. We currently have excellent security processes in place in conjunction with other EU governments. Most of these are not bilateral agreements between governments; they exist within frameworks and treaties negotiated through the EU itself. Upon exit, these fall, and will need to be replaced. There is no clear idea how this will be done from the leave campaign. The best we can hope for is a long interval with no such agreements until something can be cobbled together. The risk of terrorism and organised crime during this period is likely to increase, according to senior police officers in this country and elsewhere.
9. Scotland is likely to vote in favour of remaining in the EU, as there are clear benefits for doing so in terms of the economic support they receive. If that is the case, then there is a wholly legitimate reason for a second independence referendum, and the likelihood is that this time it will be won.
10. Universities benefit from EU funding, especially for research. This will disappear, and there are no plans for how this will be replaced.

I've fact checked all this as far as I can, including some fairly remote (but credible) sources. I've spoken directly to people involved, and to researchers and others who have expressed views. The overwhelming conclusion is that there is no good reason for leaving, other than ignorance, gullibility and bigotry, fanned by a right wing press drunk on the idea that they have the power to bring down governments. They have formed an unholy alliance of the far-right, the racists, the power hungry politicians either too extreme or incompetent to gain power by legitimate means, the ill-informed, the misinformed and those too idle to become informed. We are sleepwalking into a right-wing coup that will change our country forever. I'm appealing to those of my friends who are even contemplating a 'leave' vote, and to those who are not intending to vote. This is a last chance, and failing to preserve much of what makes us a country will be on your heads. Please think again. If anyone wants to de-friend me after this, I would understand, but I hope that the hard work I've put into this will make some people change their mind

A perfect summary as to what is happening. Well predicted, Tim :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:59 AM

DMcG I didn't catch the interview but I disagree with your suggestion that the UK is a supplicant. The UK is the bearer of many billions of currency units. Billions of currency units that the EU desperately wants. The EU is the supplicant and Thereasa May's big failure is to not use this to her advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:47 AM

BWM - Love the photo of brexit piece :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:38 AM

I don't know what world Davis is living in, but it sure isn't the real one. To quote one comment in the Guardian:

"Maybe the BBC, by interviewing David Davis, are trying to show that's it's possible to be really very, very stupid and still hold a senior post in government.
Equal opportunities and all that."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:31 AM

Given the latest extension, perhaps Nigel wants to say whether he has changed his mind on his prediction that we will leave on WTO rules? And, perhaps, attach a date to the prediction.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:24 AM

Quite a lot of criticism of the BBC, especially John Humphries, in giving David Davis an easy ride while showing no ability to recognise the reality that it is not up to the UK to say what can be done, but it needs a joint agreement where the UK is the supplicant:


The former Brexit secretary, David Davis, has called for the withdrawal agreement to be renegotiated and for technical solutions to the Irish border issue to be revisited under a managed no deal.
To the incredulity of MPs and commentators Davis insisted that the Malthouse compromise still offered the best solution to the Brexit deadlock.

...

Reaction to the interview has been scathing:

===
David Lammy

David Davis stuck on a loop on #r4today.

Once again spouting the same nonsense about reopening May's deal and claiming every expert is wrong about No Deal being an economic catastrophe.

Brexiteers have run out of ideas and their lies have been exposed. Let's #PutItToThePeople

1,456
8:30 AM - Apr 11, 2019
Twitter
===
Ben Bradshaw

Oh God! On such an important morning @BBCr4today thinks the answer is to get the clueless David Davis on for its main interview to witter on about the dead as a dodo “Brady compromise”. #BrexitShambles #FinalSay #PeoplesVote
====
Angus B MacNeil MP

John Humphreys allowing David Davis to make all sorts of sweeping assertions on the EU in a cosy fireside chat on #r4today ..
Just allowing misinformation
...reality is UK controls own migration and most "migrants" come from outwith EU

37
8:25 AM - Apr 11, 2019
===
MichaelWhite

Listening to Brexit Bulldog, David Davis, on @r4Today is to be reminded just how hopeless Team Brexit has been in putting together and sustaining a coherent position for more than 2o minutes: cheerfully casual, as usual

33
8:37 AM - Apr 11, 2019

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:12 AM

I’d add to that, the hugely simplified system for the intra-community movement of goods and services. My entire working life was spent in companies which traded internationally, and trading (both directions) with EU Member-States was infinitely easier and cheaper than with non-EU countries. And the consolidated banking system provided a considerably simpler and safer system for payments between traders in Member-States.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 03:58 AM

To me the main benefit of EU membership is Freedom of Movement and the opportunities that this gives to our young people. Other major benefits such as Erasmus, Horizon2020, depend to some extent upon our underpinning right of Freedom of Movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 03:39 PM

Newsflash - Scientists have released the first-ever photograph of Brexit!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 09:55 AM

The main point is, David (C), that we are, or should be, discussing whether the benefits of the EU outweigh the disadvantages. I believe they do and am firmly in the remain camp. But other people have the opposing viewpoint. Up to now, however, no one on here has been able to articulate why they feel that leaving would be better other than by producing vague claims about sovereignty and repeating the lies told during the leave campaign.

BTW - I clicked this thread instead of the 'Black Hole' thread inadvertently. I think it was probably Freudian... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 09:45 AM

Those various factors uniting - aided by social media and engineered Outrage - is one reason why the hiatus between December 12th and 31st has me so worried. (Assuming May is still there by then. But she clings on like a June bug, and I don't believe a word she says. That's what you get when you cry Wolf too often.)

There is, as you say, true danger.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 09:39 AM

No way I'm forgetting, Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 09:34 AM

"He won't be able to do much (if he even gets elected):"
It was stated by another Brexiteer last night that they intended to unite with other right wing European anti EU Groups to use the populism that gave us Brexit to undermine the Union - I'm afraid they can do a great deal of damage
You might have read in this morning's paper that ex Sinn Feinn TD is entering the election on an anti-immigration ticket - he has been disowned by his ex-party
Peter Casey leapt from nowhere to take a large slice of the Presidential vote, using anti-traveller bigotry
It looks as though the Israeli election has been won using populist Islamophobia
Populism foisted Trump on the world
It would be very foolish to forget who these people are and what they are doing
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 09:09 AM

”whatamess.”

Indeed it is, Don. More importantly, it’s a perfect example of what happens when a group of politicians get together and put party and personal wealth (their own, and that of their wealthiest supporters) before the good of the country and its people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 09:07 AM

> Nice to see Farage making his way into The European Parliament with the intention of wrecking it

He won't be able to do much (if he even gets elected): In a pre-emptive move, as a condition of the extension, Europe are taking away Britain's seat at the commissioner's table; and he's not a head of state. Fortunately, all the drama-queen hissy fits and temper tantrums are SO obvious and juvenile that everybody can see them coming a mile off and prepare evasive action.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 08:48 AM

The EU will be glad to extend British anguish for a year. Its a warning to others. France however farts in your general direction and might suggest a Christmas deadline or nothing at all.
whatamess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 08:46 AM

DtG, a whole lot in that article about immigration, but very little about the more important corollary, which is opportunities to emigrate. How did the nation which settled (ok, invaded and appropriated) much of North America and Australasia, become a bunch of stay-at-homes. Whereas the French, who historically did not settle even in their own colonies, have become much more open minded.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 08:23 AM

ice to see Farage making his way into The European Parliament with the intention of wrecking it
That appears to be the future tactic since they can't get their way by any other means
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 06:56 AM

The only thing that worries me ("only"... ha!!! ...among the 9,348,932 other things that worry me) is: If Europe gives us the 31st December extension instead of the March 2020 one, there will be another potential cliff-edge-chaos scenario (right before the usual Christmas madness), because from the 12th, May's leadership can again be challenged from within. And her own party deserted her in droves during the last Parliamentary vote.

That means there's a real danger that one of the extremists could be selected as the prime minister - with less than three weeks to the end of what Europe has assured us is the Final Final Final deferral. At least the March 2020 option allows breathing space to thrash something out.

I hate May, but I truly believe that most (not all) of the available alternatives are far, far worse. And the ones that don't terrify me (forget about disgust, passed that post long ago) show no signs of wanting to pursue the PM's chair. So if the new date has to be December, I think it should be the 11th and not the 31st.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 04:21 AM

Just a reminder and a good balanced article

Brexit: pros and cons of leaving the EU

Does not tell us anything we do not already know but helps us to focus on the discussion. It is all about whether you believe one outweighs the other. I believe the pros of remaining far outweigh the cons. Other believe differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 04:21 AM

i've always felt that it is the way that people and families are affected that should matter most. i don't really understand the finer details of trade deals, financial implications etc - far less the political squabbling involved in trying to extricate our country from whatever cul-de-sac into which we have so foolishly negotiated our selves.

from day 1 we could have said that EU workers are welcome here and worked hard to protect our rights to work abroad, but this has never been accepted by the political grotesques of the tory right. their money will protect them and they live and 'work' where they please. that a significant minority of our fellow citizens seem to support these buffoons is really sad. think about the opening ceremony of the london olympics and the picture that the UK showed to the world. that was only 7? years ago - the people who have dragged our country down and so far away from 'normal' or even sensible should be imprisoned - not queuing up for the top jobs in a barely functioning democracy.

sorry, i'm rambling now - when i should be off birdwatching on the solway coast and trying to forget about all this hideousness.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 03:58 AM

Best option is a long delay, followed by a political realignment, and then we quietly forget this daft idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 03:52 AM

Not in my worst nightmares did I think this would end up days away from a no-deal exit leading to food and medicine shortages, chaos in the ports, fears about the Union, and a catastrophic fall in our standing in the world. I don’t blame the people who voted Leave. I blame the charlatans who peddled the falsehoods that this would be easy and cost-free. And what does it say about our politics that those who led the lying are among the favourites to become the next prime minister?
Betty Boothroyd ex Tiller Girl, ex legislative assistant for an American Congressman, and ex Speaker of the House of Commons, 89 years old

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 02:50 AM

Similar remarks apply to Donuel's interpretation that none of this really matters. I agree with him that in 6000 years this won't matter much - if we are still around as a species, it will be of the same sort of relevance to everyday life as the battles between Hengist and Horsa. But the path we take to get 6000 years hence does matter, so what happens in the next 6, 60 and 600 years does affect people's lives greatly so it makes sense to care passionately about it. Not to the exclusion of all else that affects their lives, though. It would be a serious error to concentrate on Brexit so much that you ignored everything else. In fact, I care very little about Brexit, really. What I care about is how Brexit impacts all these other things - the environmental controls, people's rights, the ability to limit multinationals, solving problems by negotiations, not physical or trade wars, and so on. Abstract theories of sovereignty or whatever do not really matter to me. How are actual people's lives affected does.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 02:25 AM

My experience is fairly similar to that. By way of illustration, around a week ago my wife and I met up with an old friend of hers recently who we hadn't seen or spoken to for perhaps 30 years. For several hours the topic of Brexit did not arise and then eventually she raised it in the most neutral terms she could and we responded in the same way. None of us wanted to get into a battle on what was a social occasion.

Then there is the point I think 'peteaberdeen' raised - "none of this really matters." While most of us care deeply about our country and fellow citizens, I think most of us also recognise that what we say on an obscure little website or over the pub table has no measurable effect on anything. When a million march, or 6 million sign a petition, it is enough to be acknowledged in Parliament, but the chances of it actually leading to a change is still quite small, but can certainly change the tone. I doubt if 'revoke' would be getting the consideration it is without the petition, for example.


But in ordinary day to day life? No, the topic is barely raised.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 10:10 PM

”I am totally confused and try to follow it. Just left england yesterday. Thought it would be discussed endlessly. Heard only a couple of people mention it. Rest radio silence.”

Mary, I think much depends on where you were, who you were with, and what you were doing.

The main TV news channels, Sky News and BBC news, are wall-to-wall Brexit right now, but if you weren’t watching TV news during your visit you might not be aware of that. And, of course, the papers are Brexit-Bonkers, full of all the latest doings of our politicians re Brexit.

But, as you might have gathered from this and the other Mudcat Brexit threads, Brexit has had a very unpleasant polarising effect here, and there are high emotions and strong feelings either way, so people (certainly in the circles in move in) are loath to open discussions of Brexit with strangers, or even friends and family, for fear of encountering conflict.

As an example my wife and I, having worked for many years in a company with strong EU links and having friendships with European colleagues, are very pro-EU and strong Remainers, whereas her parents are rabid, anti-immigration Brexiteers. We all made our positions crystal-clear before the referendum and, in the interests of family harmony, the subject of Brexit has been taboo ever since - we simply never refer to Brexit in their company.

And amongst our wider circle of friends and colleagues, it’s understood that Brexit is an emotive subject so, rather than getting into heated discussions, raising blood-pressures, and risking relationships, we and they keep our views to ourselves - the nearest I’ve got to a Brexit discussion face-to-face has been a very tentative, “Are you a Leaver or Remainer” from someone I hadn’t seen for thirty years and met up with for a lunch date, and a response of. “Oh!” and a rapid change of subject when I said I was a Remainer.

So I’m not surprised about your perception that it’s generally ‘Radio Silence’ - my own experience is that, unless they are amongst a circle of like-minded friends, people prefer not to risk the possibly unpleasant repercussions of in-person Brexit-talk and, TBH, I think most of us are sick to the back teeth of the sheer stupidity of the entire debacle.

I wonder if others here have the same experiences?