BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:09 AM

I have seen a lot of comments today that Major prorogued Parliament to avoid Parliament discussing the cash for report. It is worth pointing out that what he actually did was call an election during which he, his MPs and those of other parties would be cross questioned by the media and the people, leading to the electorate finally voting who would be in power.

That bears no relationship to the current prorogation, which avoids questioning and at the end of it the PM will be in place whatever people's views.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:13 AM

In haste, to Rain Dog.

"I do find it amusing the way some of you interpret a simple yes/no vote to say that it is not a majority vote. According to that reasoning only 43.35% voted to remain in the EU in the 1975 vote. Should that not have counted?"

The vote shouldn't have happened at all. The decision should have been made by Parliament. I know Jim disagrees. I say that to demonstrate that he and I at least are not one of the Secret Seven (worry not - I know you were kidding...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:14 AM

Er, TWO of the Secret Seven...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:24 AM

Or that neither he nor you is one of the Secret Seven? That is subtly different again ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:25 AM

Bloody hell Steve and DMcG - have you two become apprenticed to Nigel? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:27 AM

No, but we are missing him!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:31 AM

"I know Jim disagrees."
It may be that we are in a different position in Ireland but having seen the way referenda works here I can only say - come in and try the water
There are so many vested interests in British Politics that democracy back home has always been "A good idea" (as Gandhi once described Western Civilisation)
I am convinced that the persistent low participation in what should be the most important choice ever obtained by working people - the right to choose who rules them - is down to the utter contempt our politicians are held in
How can a situation like that be regarded as trustworthy on decisions as important as this ?
This antipathy has now given us populism - the opposite of democracy
For all it's flaws, Irish politics has, up to now, supplied a balance which has never been within the reach of the British People
PR and referenda have been very much a part of producing that balance
It is significant that one of the earliest moves of the Northern Unionists while creating their sectarian state was to abolish the former PR system
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 07:08 AM

I'm not a great fan of tweeting as a rule, but a must-share from actor, Hugh Grant
"You will not fuck with my children's future.
You will not destroy the freedoms my grandfather fought in two world wars for to defend.
Fuck off you over-promoted rubber bath-toy.
Britain is revolted by yo and yor litle gang of mastebatory prefects"

Wish I'd said that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 08:38 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 07:08 AM
About the usual level of meaningful debate!

After three years to debate the issues screeching about losing a couple of days, due to proroguing, is ludicrous.

The court case in scotland cannot have too much merit if the judge did not immediately grant a cease and desist motion for an allegedly illegal action! He needs to spin out his final judgement to give the impression he is giving it due consideration. I would be amazed if he finds for the remainiacs. Even if he does it will be knocked off to a higher court.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 08:40 AM

"No, but we are missing him!"
I think this discussion has been devoid of credible, articulate opposition from day one
I had many political disagreements with MtheGM (Mike Grosvenor Myer), but I'd love to have known his opinion on this mess
As with many subjects that interest me nowadays, those who die are seldom replaced - the inevitable effect of ageing, I suppose

One thing that now occurs to me is that whoever wins this fight will have gained a pyrrhic
The damage done to Britain so far will take decades to repair before any attempts to 'stand on our own two feet' can be even thought about - jobs and businesses lost, a divided people, a shattered Parliamentary system and a legacy of hate and bigotry to be swept aside
It is now doubtful that the UK as an entity will survive (no great harm in that in the long run; it was long past its sell-by date)
Wouldn't with that on anyone, but whoever/whatever it is, I hope they come armed with a new broom
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 08:53 AM

"pyrrhic victory" of course
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 09:03 AM

Today's Johnson bullshit is that the EU is going to be impressed by his brinksmanship, sharpened all the more by his mischievous proroguing move, and give us a deal. As a change from blaming the EU for not giving its petulant naughty boy (aka the UK) everything it demands, he's now blaming all those who oppose no-deal of making it more likely. It's transparently obvious who's really threatening no-deal: him with his sheer pig-headedness over the do-or-die leaving date. If we crash out, the blame will be one hundred percent his. A single word in your shell-like, Boris: BACKSTOP.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 10:54 AM

Among all the other chicanery, I now see that Dominic Cummings has sacked Saj's special adviser on the spot without telling poor Saj, allegedly for giving away "brexit secrets." Won't be in the job long now, Baldilocks...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 10:59 AM

I wonder if she could take him to an Employment Tribunal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:08 PM

UNDEMOCRATIC:

Lied to wholesale by the leave campaign.

Told we would easily get loads of trade deals,

Told that there would be tons of extra money for the NHS.

Told that a large queue of dark-skinned refugees, depicted on a poster, had something to do with EU immigration.

Irish border issue hardly referred to at all.

No-deal dismissed as impossible, thereafter scarcely referred to.

Unelected prime minister, with no public mandate, prorogues parliament in order to obstruct debate on brexit at the most crucial point in the process.

This unelected prime minister is at the head of a minority government.

An unelected Downing Street insider is apparently calling all the shots. Not too much of a stretch to suppose that he's actually running things, as his latest action in sacking an adviser without reference to that adviser's cabinet minister, would suggest.

This unelected prime minister, in charge of a minority government with no mandate for no-deal, is now accusing ELECTED representatives of the people of making no-deal more likely, when, in reality, it's his pig-headed do-or-die insistence on Halloween that's the only threat

Just bloody sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 07:00 PM

I do like the statement that it(the referendum) should not have been a binary decision. A ballot is always binary. There are no degrees of yes and no in my world. Perhaps in the rose tinted, luvvie, treehugging, sandal wearing world of remainers other realities exist. Perhaps in their bubble they are trapped in a quantum nightmare.
After all, the Copenhagen interpretation says a quantum system remains in superposition until it interacts with, or is observed by the external world. When this happens, the superposition collapses into one or another of the possible definite states.

Or in the real world conceptually there may be a multiplicity of outcomes but at the point in time that the pen marks the paper Schrodinger's cat has vanished up it's arse and there is but a cross in one of the two options on the ballotpaper, perhaps indicating the spot where the unfortunate animal vanished.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 02:13 AM

BREXIT THOUGHT for the DAY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 04:51 AM

JOHNSON'S REGIME BEGINS TO CRACK
RIGHTIST TERROR
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 04:53 AM

NEW FIGURES ON BREXIT'S 'FEELGOOD' EFFECT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 05:11 AM

Jim, the FT article is paywalled.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 05:29 AM

So it is - odd - it opened fro me first time around
It is a long article about how right wing politics have turned the streets of Britain into dangerous no-go areas, thanks to Brexit BASED ON THIS GOVERNMENT REPORT
If the Financial Times said it, it must be true - innit !!

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 06:01 AM

THIS MAN BLAMES REMAINERS - IT MUST BE TRUE THEN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 06:11 AM

BORIS JOHNSON ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS
We should hang on his every word
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 06:33 AM

JOHNSON - STANDING BY YOUR STAFF OR KISSING THE RIGHT ARSES
Waoora leader eh !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 06:37 AM

Instructive to hear "Sadge" (?sp.) squirming around when the ever-polite Mishal Husain reminded him of his condemnation, just a few short weeks ago, of the very idea of prorogation. Here's wot he said in the leadership campaign about it:

The chancellor, Sajid Javid, was also staunchly opposed to shutting down parliament during the Tory leadership campaign. “You don’t deliver on democracy by trashing democracy ... we are not selecting a dictator of our country,” he said. (Nice bit of Grauniad bad sentence construction there...)

A bit different this morning then, Sadge. Wriggle wriggle...

Government by trained liars now, it seems. It was also glaringly noticeable that he wouldn't answer questions about the sacking of his adviser, relationships in Cummings-dominated Number Ten or his row with Johnson. Well I for one think that he should have been answering those questions. Mind you, he would probably have lied had he done so...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 06:46 AM

Just the people Britain needs to stand on its own feet eh Steve
The world really is 'Waitin' for the Sunrise'
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 06:55 AM

As I posted a couple of days ago, Jim, six or seven of 'em expressed their outright horror and disgust at the very thought of prorogation during that campaign. I note that there's no queue forming to offer their resignations. They almost make those old-school Tories of yore look like people of principle...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 07:07 AM

You - carrer always does come before those who voted for them with these turdules - except, of coure, when the electorate can be used as 'the people's voice' to put a bit more on their own bank balance
Ah well - that's 'democracy' for you
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 08:26 AM

It appears that Sajid Javid's Treasury aide, Sonia Khan was sacked on the say so of Johnson's unelected bovver-boy, Dominic Cummings - quite right too - we don't want these bleedin' Muslims forgetting their place and running Britain, do we !!!!

Little wonder there are demonstrations being held throughout Britain today, complaining of their democratic rights being taken away by this shark's swimming pool
Interesting to see that the protestors include leavers as well as remainers
Johnson's going to have to step up his prison-building programme if he's going to stay on top of things
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 08:58 AM

Just on my way home from the local "Defend Democracy" rally. A hand held loudhailer was passed to anyone who wanted to speak. One person tried to get everyone to rally round Corbyn and was effectively shouted down by loud calls calls of "stop the coup!" until he was obliged to hand the loudhailer back. Several other speakers said they voted leave but protecting democracy was why they were here - and they were warmly welcomed.

Speaker after speaker said that for them, this was not about Brexit, even though that was important. And it was definitely about unity, not party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 09:00 AM

It appears that 'leaking information' now includes telling elected members of your own party/Government what is being done on their behalf - punishment for this heinous crime is in the hands of unelected, tee-shirt thugs - I think they used to be called 'Brownshirts and Blackshirts
Fascinating take on Johnson democracy
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 09:24 AM

"Speaker after speaker said that for them, this was not about Brexit, even though that was important. "
Looks like your demos represent the only thing united in Divided Britain Mac
I hope you have a satisfying day before Boris sends his lads in to sort you all out
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 09:50 AM

If a subject is up for discussion on this website, I think it's important that it's predicated on the facts as we know them, not gossip or wish lists. There has been no revelation that Sonia Khan was sacked for leaking and there's no evidence for that. In fact, the few official statements that have emerged suggest to the contrary. From the BBC News website:

"At the meeting with Mr Cummings, Ms Khan, who worked under Mr Hammond, handed over both her personal and work phones, and her phone logs were checked.
Evidence was found that she had been in touch with former colleagues who had worked for Mr Hammond, but not that she had been involved in leaking any sensitive government information.
No reason was given for her dismissal, but the BBC's Iain Watson said it was suggested the issue was about whether she could be trusted to be transparent with No 10."

So let's at least stay on track with that one. Incidentally, though it may not be relevant to the issue, one unassailable fact is that Ms Khan is an avid leaver.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 10:07 AM

" There has been no revelation that Sonia Khan was sacked for leaking and there's no evidence for that. In fact,"
The Sun said "she couldn't be trusted" - that's enough for me Steve - when have they ever lied !!!
As voters, we are well used to having essential information hidden from us, but when a Prime Minister regards his right-hand-man as not to know what he is doing in regarded to His staff - that's a time to be heading for the air-raid shelters
Even the eejits now running Britain ate at war with each other - even the most anti of anti Brexiteers couldn't have dreamed that one up - utterly crazy to the Strangelove extent
As much as I disagree with them, don't you wish Stanron and Hardy were here to explain what is happening to their party instead of teh Tory Speaking Clock we have to put up with

AN URGENT STATEMENT FROM DOWNING STREET
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 10:14 AM

"She couldn't be trusted" has been surmised in most of the news reports about this, but not one says that she was sacked for leaking. Anyone who makes that latter claim is either uninformed or has inside knowledge denied to the rest of us...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 10:45 AM

THIS IS THE NEAREST THING TO AN EXPLANATION THOUGH JOHNSON HAS DENIED IT
The rumour was that she was responsible for leaking the 'Yellowhammer Survey' ie, telling the public what it needed to know about tye effects of Brexit - the b***** - how dare she !!!!
If the report is right, all this is an indication of a split between those who support Johnson and those who follow Javid - ever-decreasing circles
We need to remember what can happen when this sort of thing occurs IN RIGHT WING POLITICS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 10:47 AM

It's been denied on all sides that she had anything to do with the Yellowhammer leak.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 11:23 AM

They would say that, wouldn't they ?
We are not going to get the truth from any of these pricks
Elsewhere, it is claimed that she leaked Yellowhammer to Elected politician, Philip, who, apparently, is not entitled to be privy to such information because he is against a hard Brexit - if he hasn't the right to be told such things, what the fuck chance have the rest of us got?

One unconfirmed report says that, on the orders of Bovver-Boy Cummings, the police were called to eject Khan and she was unceremoniously frog-marched off the premises -
She had a lucky escape, I would have thought - she could easily have become one of Johnson's 'Disappeared Ones' and her mother would have had to stand outside Number Ten with a placard DEMANDING TO KNOW WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO HER DAUGHTER
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 11:41 AM

She was escorted from Downing Street by a police officer as she'd had her security clearance revoked. That is apparently the standard procedure. I'm not going to get too excited about that. As for Yellowhammer, Downing Street has categorically stated that it wasn't her wot leaked it. At times like this I tend to avoid reports on stuff like this in the tabloids. Actually, I regard all times as times like this. I do occasionally get a free Mail with my Waitrose card, just to see how millions of idiots per day maintain their confirmation bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:30 PM

Whatever the truth of this - it boils down to the fact that this scum don't want those who voted in this friggin' referendum to know what the consequences of their decision are likely to be - but we already knew that
If the Johnson Regime get their wy, this is the shape of things to come - in spades
Why else would prisons and law-and-order been made the priority it has been at a time when Britain is losing is sources of income and security by the multi-billions
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:53 PM

If we are not going to be allowed to know what the possible negative consequences are, then surely all negative consequences must be illegal. If there are medicine/drug shortages, then the pharmacists who are unable to cover prescriptions should be prosecuted. If there are food shortages, then the shop owners who fail to keep their shelves fully stocked should be prosecuted. This is of course pure irony, but this does establish a principle where the responsibility for negative outcomes lie where we are not allowed to k ow what these are, and if we did we are not allowed to act on it. I fear we don't even know a fraction of what is likely to happen over the last few years, and deliberate misdirection to avoid unrest or revolt and a compliant population carries its own dangers. There was a far more sinister example in occupied Europe where Jewish people willingly submitted to registration. Another worry - that of EU nationals registering for settled status/pre-settled status and the increasing number only being accepted for the latter. How would people fare if a future government applied a more rigid immigration policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 01:20 PM

It has been confirmed that Khan was escorted from the premises by the police without being given a reason for her dismissal on the orders of unelected Gruppenfuhrer Cummings
Thousands jammed the streets around Westminster protesting this undemocratic move - one elderly Irish lady said since the Brexit vote it was the first tim in forty years she had ever encountered racist abuse becaus she was from Ireland
One wonderful London man told the Irish interviewer "after everything we've done to Ireland in the past - now this - I'm ashamed of being British"
More demonstrations have been planned for Tuesday, when Parliament is due to re-open (if it's allowed to!!)

Violent sectarian clashed have been reported in Glasgow
For fuck's sake !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 01:32 PM

Last night a peaceful Irish Unity march led by a pipe-band was set upon by a stone and petrol bomb hurling mob in Glasgow
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:13 AM

Jeremy Corbyn's own words on the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:41 AM

It' about tie a statement as clear as that was made - hope those in a position to do something about it read it before Tuesday
Been reading up on the Glasgow Unionist attack which some of the press are describing as "between two gangs"
It represents the first skirmish in Farage's Brexit race war - if it isn't nipped in the bud it will happen again - and -again - and again....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 03:47 AM

The Archbishop of Canterbury has called for Remainers to "stop whingeing" and accept the result of the Brexit referendum.

The Most Rev Justin Welby said those who voted to stay in the EU must now "take seriously the fact that the majority voted Leave", stating: "We may not like it, but that is democracy."


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/31/justin-welby-called-remainers-stop-whingeing-accept-result-brexit/

Nice to know God is firmly onside!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 03:56 AM

Must write to the pope and tell him that god is alive and well and living in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:31 AM

In fact this is the usual load of shit put out by these people and their bumwipe press
Welby has blamed Brexit for the country being in crisis and has urged those opposing it to 'tone down their language'
Any paddle when your canoe's up shit's creek, I suppose
Who gives a **** what someone who refuses to condemn hompohobia and wears a frock himself says anyway
Certainly not the twats who deliberately misquote him and whose own inhumanity is as far from the taught Christian message as it gets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:32 AM

It is a funny word, 'accept', as in 'accept the result'. I certainly accept that is what the vote was. I accept we will probably leave in some form or other. But I do not accept the interpretation of no-deal is what most people voted for because that was not what the pro-leave proponents claimed would be the result.

But of course, even if they did, it does not mean those of us who thought that was wrong should be silent and just know our place.

Any more that the Suffragettes should just have kept quiet and known their place.

Or the US slaves should just have known their place.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:47 AM

Yep. And the people opposing no-deal, opposing prorogation and/or opposing brexit altogether are determined to use democratic means only. Democracy doesn't stop when the ballot box is finally locked up. For brexiteers, democracy (their version*) didn't even stop 41 years after the first referendum.

*Inserted because in my view referendums are undemocratic.