BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:12 AM

"Jim..."
Sorry Steve - a lapse
I'll leave the "politically biased" moderators to sort it out
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:12 AM

As the UK wants to form an ever-closer union with Trumpistan, I understand that we'll be changing to driving on the right. But to make it easier, Boris has edicted that the change will be made gradually...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:33 AM

"The LEGAL requirement to display GB stickers has always been the case driving in Ireland"
No it hasn't - stop being arrogantly stupid.

Oh Dear. Give it chapter and verse and still he argues.
Since 2001 many cars have a registration with the EU flag and country of origin inside on the left of the registration plate. Probably post brexit this will no longer be recognized and will require the old style adhesive sticker, and a green card.

These legal requiremens are very easy to check. Shouting does not give veracity.
The requirent has been in place for decades, it s not new. What is new is raising awareness of what I outlined above. SIMPLES

Anyway go and argue with a cabbage and let us get back to the circus that is parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 08:12 AM

Philip Hammond says he is confident of blocking a hard entry, largely dute to Johnson's behaviour over the last few weeks
He accuses "incommers" like Dominic Cummings of infiltrating his his party to try to turn it into "something it is not"
Hope he is right - but either way, the Tory Party has hung itself out to dry; let's hope it hasn't done the same to Britain (teh UK's probably a thing of the past now)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 11:15 AM

while we await the outcome of the machinations of the partisan speaker, an article to ruminate on sovereignty

When both parties agree to give the decision to the people trying to weasel out by labeling it advisory does not quite cut the mustard

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 11:21 AM

Tidings of great Joy - the Tories no longer have a majority in Parliament
KALOO KALAY
Never mind - perhaps Johnson can sort things out with a £3bn bung to Tommy Robinson's party
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 11:28 AM

Ha ha. Nice one, Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 11:29 AM

From Lee's resignnation speech:
"I have reached the conclusion that it is not possible to serve my constituents' and country’s best interests as a Conservative Member of Parliament," he said in a statement.
"This Conservative government is aggressively pursuing a damaging Brexit in unprincipled ways. It is putting lives and livelihoods at risk unnecessarily and it is wantonly endangering the integrity of the United Kingdom." Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 12:22 PM

not too worried about tommy robinson's 'party' - he only got 2,000 votes in the european elections. failed even more spectucarly than NF - but of course the NSM-Frog has far more experience of losing elections. mind you - democracy was never of much interest to grubby little fascists or their supporters who hope to succeed by intimidating people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 12:44 PM

As an added bonus, when Johnson lost his majority, the pound went up on world markets :-)

From The London Economic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 01:17 PM

Scottish Legal appeal produce documents showing that Johnson had planned to prorogue Parliament weeks before he made his announcement
Murkier and murkier
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:06 PM

Today marks the anniversary of the death of the Lord Protector Oliver Cromwell.
He was a lad that knew how to sort out rebels, both in and outside Parliament.

I wonder how familiar 007 Cummings is with his game plans?

Will Boris make a 'shoe in' as a defender of Democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 03:38 PM

Interesting how the "rebels" label has stuck. The overwhelming majority of parliamentarians who oppose no-deal are members of opposition parties. Their job in parliament is to hold the governing party (or coalition) to account and to challenge on matters they disagree with the administration on. You're not a rebel if you're not a Tory and disagree with the Tories. The only people who might deserve the soubriquet "rebel" are those few Tories (a couple of handfuls? We'll soon find out...) who might defy the whip. Funny how these terms gain currency, and how pejorative words tend to be embraced mainly by the right...

Just musing, y'know...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 03:52 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Funny how these terms gain currency, and how pejorative words tend to be embraced mainly by the right...

What seems funny to me is that you are guilty of those things you accuse. It's as if 'Brexshitter' isn't pejorative, as if 'Little Englander' isn't pejorative and as if 'Troll' isn't pejorative. I wonder if you'll ever see yourselves as others see you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:31 PM

I do not use the term "brexishitter." If I call someone "troll" it will never be for their political opinions, merely for their insulting and provocative forum behaviour. "Little Englander," if you are one, is a soubriquet you should take pride in. It means a patriot xenophobe. I'm a patriot myself as it happens. But I'm no xenophobe. You call us lefties. I wear that as a badge of pride. But I note that you don't take on the people on your side who call us (just because we disagree with them) remoaners or remainiacs. A bit partial, that attitude, innit, Stanron? If I were you, I'd drop this. Hiding to nothing and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:43 PM

Interesting how the "rebels" label has stuck.......

In normal circumstances you would be correct, but as Parliament voted for the decision to be given back to the people by way of a referendum it is up to parliament to honour it. To say it is advisory means that parliament lied to the people. Mps have a mandate to govern only for so long as the people permit them.
In a democracy sovereignty always belongs to the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:56 PM

”What seems funny to me is that you are guilty of those things you accuse. It's as if 'Brexshitter' isn't pejorative, as if 'Little Englander' isn't pejorative and as if 'Troll' isn't pejorative. I wonder if you'll ever see yourselves as others see you.”

Stan, I’m the guy who has referred to Leavers as ‘Brexshitters’.

I’ve never seen or heard any Remainer tell a Leaver that he is a “Traitor who should be arrested, marched out, and shot for treason”, but I’ve seen it dozens of times said by Leavers to Remainers - it’s been said to me on at least half a dozen occasions, and on social media where my true identity and the town I live in are known.

As long as Leavers feel it’s OK to make death-threats against Remainers, I feel no guilt whatsoever when I call a Leaver a BrexShitter. Brexit is shit, ergo a Brexit supporter is a BrexShitter.

To quote a phrase much-loved by BrexShitters, Get Over It.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:08 PM

Backwoodsman wrote: To quote a phrase much-loved by BrexShitters, Get Over It.

I used the word 'you' in a general sense, a cover term for all UK Lefties on this forum. As a group you seem incapable of conducting civil discussions with people with whom you disagree. As soon as you disagree you become abusive. I asked if you could see yourselvews as others see you. I'm not surprised that the answer is no.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:16 PM

Step one successful!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:22 PM

JOHNSON’S ARSE KICKED

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:39 PM

Bloody sight bigger majority than I expected. Grand. But the comedy continueth. The Tory "rebels", who were supposed to have had the whip removed this very evening, have been given "a second chance." They have to "reconsider overnight" and decide to vote with Bozza tomorrow. Government by confounded idiot or what!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:48 PM

Stanron, my post was a perfectly civil explanation of my reasons for referring to Leavers as ‘Brexshitters’. You either accept it or not, I really don’t care either way.

However, it’s very significant that you continue to rattle on about civility, or lack of it, amongst Remainers, yet you offer no comment whatsoever about your fellow-Brexiteers habit of issuing death-threats against those with whom they disagree. There seems to be something seriously adrift in your perception of morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:49 PM

"As a group you seem incapable of conducting civil discussions with people with whom you disagree. As soon as you disagree you become abusive."

Your blinkers are absolutely staggering. I need hardly point you to the posts of your numero uno right-wing ally on this board. Or, perhaps like me, you don't read his posts. I wouldn't blame you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:53 PM

For any over the pond, dipping in to test the waters, the clip below is a wonderful Aussie summary of Brexit. Clear and concise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hMQF06rGR0

No surprises on the vote in Parliament. A partisan speaker frustrating the clearly stated will of the majority, aided by MPs that voted to give the decision to the people and have since reneged.

The water is wide(in the swamp)...............I can't cross over....

But no doubt Boris and Farage will construct a cunning boat to enable us to reach the other side wherein lies our sovereignty

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:58 PM

Good to see real parliamentary democracy in action. Our elected representatives voting by a huge majority to do what is best for the nation.

Certainly beats a pair of unelected populists trying to subvert legal challenges to their attempted dictatorship.

And good on Jezza saying that an extension must be agreed before even considering going to the polls. I hope he means it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:14 PM

Ironic, innit, that the very silly Fixed Term Parliaments Act brought in by Cameron has nobbled Bozza. Ha bloody ha!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:22 PM

And we might find proroguing Parliament limits PM Johnson's options.

Given how today and perhaps tomorrow goes, I wonder if Cummings will be masterminding the Tory election when it eventually comes - hopefully, well after the end of October.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 01:40 AM

Perhaps the truth is beginning to dawn that Johnson and Dom & Dommer are nothing more than a pair of chancers, and that bluster and cunning are not the same thing as statesmanship and intelligence?

‘Dom & Dommer’.....hmmm, I like that! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 01:41 AM

It has just struck me that the very weakness Johnson is now experiencing makes the DUP far less relevant, which in its turn opens up a border in the Irish Sea as a possible solution,. NI could stay permanently aligned to EU regulations, which solves the border issues, which solves Parliaments objections to the backstop. The EU is happy, NI voted remain anyway, so at least significant sections of it are happy, the Tory party might be happy - though much of the ERG as saying the backstop was not their only objection - and potentially the PM gets his deal by Oct 31.


Plenty of scope for failing in that, but it is a route we did not have before.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 02:18 AM

I think the point is being missed somewhat here
Last night Johnson expelled 21 elected members of his party for not giving in to his bullying; in doing so he totally removed any claim his party has to being a democratic Party - in that one move he destroyed the Conservative Party, hopefully forever
When Lee resigned he spoke about others who were on the brink of crossing the chamber - the Tory Party is internally in tatters, with a bumbling clown who has deliberately surrounded himself with a team of nodding dog nonentities at its head
The best of the Tories who were unprecedentedly expelled en-masse last night will, hopefully, take their support elsewhere if they have a shred of decency and self-respect - I believe some of them have
This will leave Britain with a disgraced Government trying to force through the most important decision Britain has ever had to take with a minority of 22      

A General election would have to dredge up failed fascists like Farage to be future leaders - now there's a thought
A career beer-swilling racist bigot (matches Johnson's wine-throwing competitions, I suppose) whose creation, Ukip, imploded with it's own mindless racism incompetence and failure to agree with even each other, never mind those who elected them (go count the people who they had to expell for their obvious excessiveness in constantly letting the racist cat out of the bag)
What a ******* mess for any country to be in - hardly a position to take the Brexit 'Great Leap Forward'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 02:33 AM


The best of the Tories who were unprecedentedly expelled en-masse last night will, hopefully, take their support elsewhere if they have a shred of decency and self-respect - I believe some of them have

The very definition of patriotism is putting the interests of the country before your own. These 21 have voluntarily lost, or at least seriously risked, their future for what they perceive as the good of the country.

I certainly respect them for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 02:57 AM

As the rebels have destroyed all precedents of Parliamentary behaviour with the willing collusion of the speaker, democracy has been destroyed by an unelected unaccountable rabble. As there is a fiscal element involved in their impending legislation this can only be presented for assent by the Government of the day. Should be interesting to watch Boris put a match to it.

It will be an education to see how the Salisbury convention plays out in the Lords.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 03:27 AM

"I certainly respect them for that."
Given that Tory politics has never really been more than a career move rather than a calling, so do I
The vituperative hatred shown towards people with a shred of principle represented perfectly here adds to that qualified respect - I'm sure there are little dolls stuck with pins throughout disgraced Torydom this morning

I thought last night's entertainment unsurpassable - nearly missed the start of the new thriller series.
The sight of a pouting and glowering Rees Mogg sprawled across the bench like a Roman Emperor waiting for grapes to be dropped in his mouth by a passing lupa will stay with me every bit as long as the vision of Mad Maggie leaving number ten in tears
Lets hope for more moments like these
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 03:55 AM

Now for reality rather than hysterics:
could-the-government-advise-the-queen-to-refuse-royal-assent

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:12 AM

"democracy has been destroyed by an unelected unaccountable rabble."

Sorry Lads, can't let this pass.

Every member of parliment who voted "Aye" last night is an ELECTED member of parliament, who is ACCOUNTABLE.

The only unelected and unaccountable individual in all this is Dominic Cummings, who is not even a MEMBER of the conservative party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:19 AM

Do not betray your ignorance. Only the lawfully constituted government is directly accountable to the people, not an unelected rabble.
Where lies their accountability?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:20 AM

Broadly true, Raggy, but of course ministerial appointments are exactly that: appointments. The people involved are elected as MPs but not ministers. So the ministers can fairly be described as 'unelected rabble'. I would not demur, myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:24 AM

Incidentally - maybe my maths is haywire (which it is) but wasn't this vote lost by 27 vote; only 21 Tories were thrown out ?
The heap of shit would have been kicked into touch anyway
Maybe all those who voted against it are the "unelected rabble" referred to - given track records, that seems to fit in with the present non-thinking
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:28 AM

DMcG I am not aware of any ministers voting "Aye"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:34 AM

DMcG I am not aware of any ministers voting "Aye"

No, I agree they did not.

If you can bear to read the post again, the phrase used was "democracy has been destroyed by an unelected unaccountable rabble". The only unelected group are the appointed ministers. As I said, if someone suggested their actions are undemocratic, I could be persuaded without much difficulty

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:51 AM

My remark, by the way, would have been a quip if had not be so laborious. It was a wilful misinterpretation of the post to question who are those destroying democracy. But since the matter has been raised, we could look at the accountability aspect, where Liz Truss is censured by the committee whose role is to hold her to account, because she claims she has not the time to meet with them, despite finding time to meet various US interest groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 05:26 AM

There were two Labour rebels last night, Kate Hoey (of course - mad as a box o' frogs) and "professional northerner" John Mann, the git who dishonestly orchestrated Ken Livungstone's downfall.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 05:46 AM

A bit of light humour while we wait for the events of the day …

Geordie the Professional

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 05:51 AM

Me dad always called Parky a professional northerner, but John Mann fits the bill perfectly.

Steve (northerner)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 06:51 AM

For more light humour, have a look at Andrew Sparrow's live blog on the Guardian website. Scroll right down to see some amusing takes on Rees-Mogg's slouch.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 07:41 AM

Even more amusing. Has Bennie boy been too clever for his own boots?

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-cons

Do I detect acres of long grass and a proposed bill resembling a football?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 08:01 AM

Boris Johnson CAN suspend Parliament next week, finds Scotland's highest court as judge rejects Remainers' bid to stop prorogation

No Surprises there! Score 1 for democracy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 08:05 AM

"A foul-mouthed oaf who should be frogmarched out of Downing Street". Roger Gale, Tory MP, not a rebel, on Dominic Cummings.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 08:10 AM

Boris Johnson apparently does not have the two third majority to dissolve Parliament, the opposition are refusing to support him and demanding that he asks for an extension till January - at present, that is the predicted outcome so suspending Parliament doesn't mean squat
Hopefully, game set and match if democracy has its way
Some of those expelled by Johnson to be replaced by thugs like Cummings have held the highest offices in the country
A good day for democracy (if you lived in Nazi Germany)
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 08:32 AM

It is the PM' prerogative to prorogue parliament. No election simply prorogue over the line for the Queen's speech. The rebels can do diddly squat.