BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:54 AM

"Maybe you're thinking of Sudan's Omar al-Bashir"
That makes sense Jon - pity
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 10:53 AM

I'm sure there are other things but I must admit liking this little synopsis

Since Brexit negotiations began...

...the EU has
ended roaming charges
banned hidden charges for paying online
given free rail travel to teenagers
funded thousands in medical research
protected workers' mobility rights
adopted the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive
improved food standards
reached trade deals with Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, Mexico, Australia and New Zealand

...the UK has
got through 3 Brexit ministers
changed UK passports to blue
spent £66 billion on failed Brexit
given MPs two payrises

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 11:24 AM

I'm sure there are other things but I must admit liking this little synopsis

Since Brexit negotiations began...

...the EU has
ended roaming charges
banned hidden charges for paying online
given free rail travel to teenagers
funded thousands in medical research
protected workers' mobility rights
adopted the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive
improved food standards
reached trade deals with Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, Mexico, Australia and New Zealand

I'm not sure where that was copied from, or whether it was made up on the spot. I've just checked a couple of the points for accuracy:

...the EU has
ended roaming charges
This should be 'limited roaming charges to the roaming charges you pay in your home nation, with limitations' Here There can still be additional charges if you use the internet above a certain level.


...the EU has
given free rail travel to teenagers
This should be 'given 30 days free rail travel to 18 year olds' details: Here

Usual remain tactics of make enough statements and hope the gullible will take them all at face value.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 12:12 PM

The guy who was arrested was Assange, which Iains pointed out before his post was deleted for god-know-what-reason (except maybe his simple presence in a thread provokes people who are not in enough control of themselves to not be provoked, and go down that off-topic rabbit hole pulling the whole thread in with them, but what do I know?)

As for Brexit, I wonder if that will be delayed until forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:07 PM

From Today's Irish Times (apologies to S.T.C.)
Jim Carroll


The Rime of the Ancient Brexiter
(Scene: The entrance to a polling booth, somewhere in England, in the distant future. A trio of Eurosceptic voters is interrupted by a bearded old man, who looks like a strange mixture of Michael Gove, Nigel Farage, and Jacob Rees-Mogg.
He grabs one of them by the hand.)

It is an ancient Brexiter
And he stoppeth one of three
“By thy long gray beard and glittering eye,
Now wherefore stopp’st thou me?”

He holds him with his skinny hand,
“There was a bus,” quoth he.
“Hold off! Unhand me, greybeard loon!”
Eftsoons his hand dropped he.

“The bus was cheered, the Bo’sun* steered,
From Finchley to Furness
Three-fifty millions we would save:
‘Let’s fund the NHS’.” (*old nautical abbreviation for “Boris Johnson”)

The Sun came up upon the left
The Mail came up the right
And though the vote was sorely cleft
We won, and danced all night

The bus it powered on, pell-mell
On hardest Brexit bent
We’d triumphed, so we sent to hell
The forty-eight per cent

But now another ’lection came
Twas early (Missus) May
And yet we froze in icy wastes
And somehow lost our way

The ice was here, the ice was there
The ice was all around
The Bo’sun said if May were gone
We’d once-more forward bound

“God save thee, ancient Brexiter
What memory haunts thee thus?”
“I backed the Bo’sun’s plan at first,
Then pulled a double-cross!”

Yet still the sunlit uplands loomed
And soon the ice did crack
We passed the Irish Border line
With two words: “stop” and “back”

And now a great bird hove in view
As if sent by the gods
Its wing-span covered ten MPs
Its name was Nigel Dodds

The back-stop was a hellish thing,
It warned - and would work woe.
If Dodds would fly behind our ship
The back-stop had to go.

And so we tried to ditch that stop
To th’ task we downward hunkered
But our enemies did anchor drop
Till we were Jean-Claude Junckered

Then the wind - alas! – it droppeth too
How to move we had no notion
Ours a tainted ship of state
Upon a tainted ocean

Day after day, day after day
No mast or top-sail flew
And all the while to Captain May
We were a ghastly crew

Yet flew we still the Brexit flag
For something drove us on
Till another spectre made us sag
Its name was Bercow, John

“Order! Order!” everywhere
It said, as hearts did sink
“Order! Order!” everywhere
It drove us all to drink

We tabled motions by the hour
The votes were chock-a-block
“Aye-aye”, “nay-nay”, and so it went
“The ayes have it - unlock!”

But still no sign of breakthrough came
The crew remained at odds
Until despairing - and for shame!
I shafted Nigel Dodds!

The old man gazed with countenance sad
His eyes nine fathom deep
It looked as if a conscience (bad)
Had long disturbed his sleep

But now he grabbed the hand again
And bade once more be heard
He’d leave the Eurosceptic
With this, one final word:

“He playeth best, who loveth best
All creatures great and small
Yea - even the forty-eight per cent
God loveth them and all.”

The Brexiter, whose eye is bright
Whose beard is aged with hoar,
Is gone, and leaves the voter
Shook at poll-booth door

He went in like one that hath been stunned
His face was creased with pain
A sadder and a wiser man
He voted to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:14 PM

You certainly don't seem to know of a really effective way of keeping this website decent and clean, Jeri. I for one am exceptionally grateful that his gratuitous and routine nastiness, which you never criticised or acted against, is no longer accepted here. "Simple presence" my fat bottom. Or perhaps you agreed with his detestable opinions and his attack modus operandi...

Nigel, well done for your best nitpick ever. Everyone and his dog knows that the term "roaming charges" refers to the EXTRA charges you used to incur for using your data outside your own country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:29 PM

It seems the provoked is the guilty pary in the eyes of some (noticeably the racist provocation features nowhere on some people's Richter scale
Little wonder we have no Muslim and few Irish contributors here
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:35 PM

Words like ‘Birds’ and ‘Feather’ spring to mind. {{{heartfelt sigh}}}

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:43 PM

Steve beat me to it. I could also add that a cut and paste of the complete post seems rather superfluous when a simple reference will do, but I won't because I am no nitpicker :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 02:01 PM

"The guy who was arrested was Assange, which Iains pointed out "
Actually, the guy I wa referring to was President Omar al-Bashir of Sudan
Iaian's tripped over himself denying it was his friend Bashar Hafez al-Assad who had been arrested - he likes to defend those he supports, no matter what it takes
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 02:08 PM

Guys, the mods are working to prevent the Resident Right-Wing Extremist from wrecking the thread any more than he's already done. Let's not let his cronies and supporters take over where he was forced to leave off, eh?

Ignore the Agents Provocateurs, please!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 06:34 PM

Bob, you don't actually know, but it's good to have something to fight about, isn't it? This is the mindset here now. Forget the subject and go after people because it's fun, and it makes your ego happy.

What's the subject again?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 07:04 PM

Brexit, Jeri. Which is what I wanted this thread to be all about. And it's my thread, if ownership of threads is allowed. And the chap you are affecting to scratch your head about had an agenda that was anything but. Good work on your friend bobad, but you might like to reflect your earlier post. And, before you say it, I know I've been no saint. But I'm trying, whether you see it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 07:05 PM

Reflect on

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 04:50 AM

That is the best advice, BWM. As I said earlier, kicking shit only gets your shoes dirty and creates a nasty smell. Just step over it!

Dealing With Flamers and Trolls

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 06:44 AM

Isn't this thread about Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 08:16 AM

It is, Kevin, but when posters get either too silly or abusive it does warrant bringing up the subject of how to deal with them. As to stopping other bits of thread drift, well, you might as well try to push butter up a hedgehog's arse with a hot needle!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 08:26 AM

Well, I have had other things on my mind for a few days, so Brexit has not been on my agenda much. And with the MPs off on their hols I don't think there will be too much news for a little while. But I think there is a good chance of the time for the extension being wasted, because of attention on the local elections, EU elections and then several sets of holiday. So I could see us losing focus until early September

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 01:21 PM

I think you’re probably right, DMcG. Plus the Tories are still at each other’s throats about their own leader, and they’re still making noises about a change. I wouldn’t be surprised if that becomes their main focus over the next few months, in which case look out for plenty of Diversion-Tactics - “Jeremy Corbyn - Anti-Semite/Terrorists’ Friend/Enemy of the State/Ally of the Russians/Allotment Association Show Cheat/yadda yadda”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 01:54 PM

I am surprised that the EU has allowed any extension to the date of the UK leaving.

Having had the best part of three years, with all the 'deadlines' that that has included, why on earth would they consider another six months will make a difference.

Time for another referendum in my opinion, give all the new voters (some 2 million of them) the opportunity to voice their say.

They will be the ones who are most impacted by any future changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 05:26 PM

Daily Express poll.
Voting intent for EU elections:
Results of the poll:

    Brexit Party: 15,797 or 82 percent
    UKIP: 976 or six percent
    Change UK: 635 or four percent
    Labour Party: 600 or four percent
    Liberal Democrats: 380 or one percent
    Conservative Party: 361 or one percent
    Other: 237 or one percent
    Green Party: 209 or one percent
    SNP: 178 or less than one percent
    Plaid Cymru: 33 or less than one percent

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 05:40 PM

I'd hoped that might have made the extension dependant upon a referendum or a general election. I can't see how May could have refused that. Maybe when she's back on Halloween. With nothing to show for the six months, they'll do that then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 08:05 PM

There's barely enough time for another referendum even if May gets her skates on, which she won't. The probable outcome is another extension. Which would mean no brexit. Bring it on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 12:03 PM

A distinct possibility.

May: Give us another extension
EU: Piss off. Either leave or stay but stop buggering about
May: See, we tried our best to leave with a good deal but that nasty EU would not let us. Not my fault.

We can but hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 12:25 PM

‘I’ve said it before on various Brexit threads, but I’ve thought right from the start that it is the intention of The Praying Mantis to obfuscate and prevaricate until the UK is unable to leave the EU at all, but she will leave herself in a position where she can shrug her bony, hunched shoulders and say, “Not my fault, guv - it was them lot over there wot dun it!”.

I’ve seen nothing in recent months to change my view, she’s already managed to get the possibility of a No-Deal Brexit kicked into touch by Parliament, all that remains now is to run the extension down until an agreement becomes an impossibility.

And I wish her every success.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 12:51 PM

Unfortunately, while Parliament has said there shouldn't be a No Deal, that remains the default outcome if we come to a deadline with no agreement to a deal and no extension. Unless of course Parliament compels Article 50 to be revoked - which we can't depend on it doing.

A public vote, either a referendum or a General Election, seems the only way out. Even if Labour were to sign up to a deal with May, there is no reason to think it would be any more likely to be approved by the Commons. More Labour MPs might vote for it, but fewer Tories would.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 12:55 PM

Perhaps, but it could be an awful lot rides on this EU election. Pick a bunch of Greens, LibDems and co who are pro-EU, and Macron could see them as bulwarks against Le Penn and similar groups. Elect an unholy alliance of Farages and Rees-Mogg supporters out to obstruct the EU in every way, and we might see any appetite for a further extension severely curtailed.

I was reading a couple of interesting articles today about Heath and Wilson bringing into the (predecessors of) the EU. In "The Lady" magazine as it happens...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 01:03 PM

You could very well be right Kevin. Personally, although I object to referendums on principle, I’d go for it if it was the only way out. I’m not at all certain, though, that the result of the first referendum would be reversed - Leavers’ attitudes seem to have hardened and I don’t believe many would be won over to the Remain side.

From my perspective, absolutely the last thing I want is a GE. I think the Conservative Smear-Machine would go into overdrive in an attempt to finally and completely destroy JC’s reputation, and therefore wreck the chances of a Labour government being voted in. And, to be honest, I really wouldn’t want Labour to inherit the Tories’ mess - they started it, let them finish it. With any luck it will destroy them and see them out of office for years to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 01:16 PM

It's vital that Labour doesn't become seen to be facilitating brexit. The overwhelming majority of Labour voters, and an even bigger majority of party members, voted remain. Talking to the Tories is one thing (sheesh). But any agreement reached must be predicated on ratification by a public vote. And I'm saying that as a long-time opponent of referendums...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 02:16 PM

The overwhelming majority of Labour voters, and an even bigger majority of party members, voted remain.

There is no data to support the above assertion because party affiliation was not recorded in the referendum and MEP constituencies do not coincide with Parliamentary ones.

70% of Conservative constituencies and 60% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave in the EU referendum.
Conclusion

These figures are roughly correct, although we don’t know for sure how many parliamentary seats voted – all we have are estimates.

    "7 out of 10 Conservative MPs... represent constituencies that voted to leave, as did mine. 6 out of 10 of Labour represent Leave constituencies."

    Claire Perry MP, 12 July 2018

The results of the EU referendum weren’t counted by parliamentary constituency, so we don’t know for sure how constituencies voted. A small number of councils did release official breakdowns by parliamentary seat, and data on some other areas was obtained by the BBC via Freedom of Information requests.

The best figures we have for other constituencies comes from Professor Chris Hanretty, a political scientist at Royal Holloway University, who combined official results and the BBC data with statistical methods in order to estimate the proportion of Leave and Remain voters in every seat in England, Scotland and Wales.

These estimates show that while the national result of the referendum was relatively close, with 52% voting Leave and 48% voting Remain, a much larger majority of parliamentary seats voted to Leave – with 64% of seats in Great Britain voting Leave. (This is likely due to the uneven distribution of Remain voters, who tended to cluster in large cities, while Leave voters were more evenly spread.)

According to these estimates, around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave. All seats won by the Scottish National Party and the Green Party, and a majority of the seats won by the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru, voted to Remain.Bar chart showing the numbers of seats held by British parties that voted Leave or Remain

These estimates are most likely the ones being referred to when politicians discuss how constituencies voted. But other than the seats where the actual result is known for sure (only 20% of constituencies) they are just estimates.

As Professor Hanretty wrote when he released his work, “I’d like you to say ‘probably’ before you talk about how a constituency voted, unless I’ve flagged up a result as being known exactly.” The margin of error for the estimates is not known, due to the nature of the statistical methods used.

This means that for constituencies in which the exact results are unknown, and which the estimates suggest the result of the referendum vote was close, we can’t be certain about saying whether the constituency voted Leave or Remain.

Looking just at seats held by the Conservatives and Labour, if we highlight seats where the estimated referendum vote was within the 47% to 53% range and the actual result isn’t known, we can see that there are a large number of seats where the referendum vote is still uncertain.Scatter plot showing estimated Leave and Remain votes in Conservative and Labour parliamentary constituenciesWhen you factor in this uncertainty, the figures for how each party’s seats voted changes a bit. By this count, 62% of Conservative seats voted Leave, with 21% uncertain and 17% Remain. Labour’s seats, meanwhile, voted 56% Leave, 8% uncertain, and 36% Remain.

Of course this will not fit with the shouties agenda so no doubt it will be censored by deletion like most of my other recent posts.

Is this what mudcat now represents- a bastion of the extreme left?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 03:04 PM

The fact that a Labour held seat voted Leave does not imply that most Labour voters in that constituency voted Leave in the referendum. That Leave vote was made of people who had voted for the whole range of parties.

There have been a number of researchers who have found that it appears that most people who had voted Labour in 2015 voted to Remain in the referendum, whereas most Tory voters went for Leave.
Here is a site that includes a breakdown of how the refrendum vote was made up.

For 2015 Labour voters it's given as 63% Remain, for Tories it's only 42%. And many of those Remain voters were probably at least as much influenced by a wish to hit out at the Cameron government as by the actual issue of Brexit.   When it came to the 2017 election they voted Labour again.

That's not to deny that there were many Labour voters who went for Remain - but the assumption that all the Labour leave-voting constituencies are full of people ready to turn there back on the hope of a Labour government at any sign of readiness to allow people to have a second chance to decide their future is very questionable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 04:44 PM

The referendum was not conducted on constituency lines. Yet brexiteers love to analyse it thus. That's because they see the stats as "confirming" that the result was clear cut. Well it wasn't. It was tight. And the stuff about "northern constituencies," etc, being leave is bullshittery. The fact is that a large majority of Labour voters voted remain everywhere, just about, and an even larger majority of Labour members voted remain. Take heed, Jezza. You're supposed to be standing up for better democracy within the party. A recent YouGov poll revealed that large numbers of Labour leave voters have changed their minds. In a new referendum, it's a good bet that Labour voters and new young voters replacing the recently-dead would reverse the result. Be very afraid, brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 06:55 PM

The rage of Brexiteers about the suggestion of a referendum reflects their awareness that they are probably in a minority now.

Of course if such a vote was a confirmatory one, on a deal - either May's one or with a tacked-on customs union with remain as the alternative it's hard to know what the hardine Brexiteers would prefer. There's been quite a lot of talk about "this deal is worse than staying in the EU" - maybe they mean it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 02:56 AM

"The referendum was not conducted on constituency lines. "
The problem is that the hate based populism that gave us Brexit and Trump is being presented as 'Democracy' by the right wing politicians and the Bum-wipe Press
I have to say, before I experienced them close up, I was unaware of how effective referenda and proportional representation could be when used responsibly - they really are a check on excesses
The tactical voting available to you at election time really makes you think before you put your cross on the ballot paper
Ireland has improved beyond imagination over the last decade or so thanks to two referenda - others on divorce and a woman's place in society on their way (while Little Britain beyond Ireland still lumbers in the Primeval swamps North-East of here)
Bring on the next one
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 03:45 AM

What. Jim. Said.
In red boldface caps, and underline it eight times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 04:16 AM

But with double underlining of the important three words - ‘when used responsibly’!

The Brexit referendum was probably the least responsibly-run referendum ever, anywhere. And we will be paying for it for a very long time to come, or rather, our kids will.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 04:31 AM

"But with double underlining of the important three words - ‘when used responsibly’!"
That goes without saying Baccy, but when you consider of the farce that Parliamentary democracy has become (and has always been, to a lesser degree) "anywhere has to be better than here" as the man said as he drove into Birmingham !
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 05:19 AM

Well I can't think of an issue less suited to having a referendum about than membership of the EU. The biggest lie of all that was sold to us among a whole plethora of lies was that it was somehow as simple as putting a cross in one of two boxes on a piece of paper and that that was "democracy." In the last three years we've seen our national money draining away, every economist pointing to the dire threat of a severe shrinkage of our economy, the chances of amazing trade deals evaporating completely and a potential border crisis that initially seemed to even elude most of our politicians. Ironically, the whole issue has been handled so ineptly that a referendum now seems to be the only way out of the mess, and only then if remain were to prevail. I never thought I'd hear meself saying that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 05:30 AM

The only sensible way out of this mess is to scrap the whole idea. This government will not do that of course as it will finish them. While that may seem a good thing remember that the alternative of a Tory party run by the Brexitaliban is even worse!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 06:18 AM

I agree, but I didn't mention it as I don't think there's a cat in hell's chance that she'll do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 06:27 AM

"Well I can't think of an issue less suited to having a referendum about than membership of the EU."
I can't think of single issue unsuited for referendum, given the right circumstances and responsible approach
I can think of many which I wouldn't allow most politicians anywhere near if it were left to me
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 06:51 AM

The referendum was not conducted on constituency lines. Yet brexiteers love to analyse it thus

That is beause there is no other mechanism of analysis available to allow a comparison across party lines.

This I carefully explained in yet another deleted post but if you wish to continue your puerile behaviour go ahead!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 06:54 AM

Do you honestly think, though, that a responsible approach to the brexit referendum was even remotely possible, given the dishonest motivation for calling it in the first place? There was certainly very little that was "responsible" about either campaign, and that was highly predictable. On June 23 2016 an ignorant electorate - ignorant through accepting tissues of lies from both sides, ignorant of the gravity of the choice they were confronted with, ignorant of the implications for the long-term future of the country, ignorant of the potential for the trashing of the Good Friday Agreement, ignorant through often dwelling on their own prejudices and self-interest instead of seeing the bigger picture - made the biggest decision facing the country for decades. A decision we should have expected our body of politicians to make in light of all the information they are paid to collect and understand that the rest of us can't be expected to get our heads around to anything like the same extent. 650 professional people with a host of advisers behind them. Yes we know what a pile of clowns there are embedded among that lot, but we can't do any better. So we did something far worse. By the way, had MPs had a free choice as to whether we should stay or leave, around 500 of them would have said stay, which now only fools and a few unreconstructed members of the Tory hard right still think would have been the wrong choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 06:54 AM

That was in response to Jim alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 07:04 AM

"Do you honestly think, though, that a responsible approach to the brexit referendum was even remotely possible, given the dishonest motivation for calling it in the first place?"
A different point altogether Steve
No, I see no necessity in leaving Europe whatever, and I see no necessity for referenda being called for without there being a clear need for one
Self-interest politicians and vicious bigots like Farage were allowed to make this an issue - it never arose from pressure from the people - they were never consulted beforehand, just as they are not being consulted now that result the required by those who hold the reins of State has been reached
Referendums should ve a way to allow the people to express their views on an issue they have raised and the process needs to be a matter in which the voters have all the available information at their disposal before they vote
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 07:08 AM

The United Kingdom was treated as a single constituency for the purpose of the referendum. Lord Ashcroft (see Kevin's 3.04pm post from yesterday) analysed the voting based on the way people had voted in the 2015 general election. Any other way of interpreting the data is likely to be tendentious and potentially misleading. Talk of "leave constituencies" and "remain constituencies" is one such way of trying to hoodwink people into thinking that leave achieved a resounding victory. They didn't. It was tight. It's been said, for example, that there were many 'leave constituencies" in the Labour heartlands in the north. That is misleading because in most or all of those constituencies a majority of Labour voters voted remain in the referendum. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 07:10 AM

It wasn't a different point, Jim. I was addressing directly the caveat in your post which said "...given the right circumstances and responsible approach..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 09:28 AM

the division has always been an argument in the tory party between a minority of far right tories and the slight more sensible majority. they dragged the rest of the country into their squabble and because they were not able to deal with the nicotine-stained man frog and his deluded followers - well, we are where we are. sadly - labour also have shirked their responsibility to stand up on a clear principled platform. they can't be seen to accommodate policies that will harm the country and encourage racism and division or they will deserve the same fate as the tories

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 10:37 AM

Corbyn is not a member of the communist party. That is a verifiable fact. "Vicious bigot" is a matter of opinion, mine is that Farage fits that description, he certainly fits it more closely than he does your "mightily esteemed". He represents no majority, and he never did.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 11:21 AM

""Vicious bigot" is a matter of opinion, mine is that Farage fits that description, "
Sums him up perfectly - it takes a true 'patriot' to insult the British people by claiming that this scum-bucket represents anybody but the lower depths of society - anybody making such a claim must really despise the British people
Jim Carroll