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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Steve Shaw 22 Jan 19 - 05:01 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 19 - 05:10 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 19 - 05:11 AM
Iains 22 Jan 19 - 05:14 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Jan 19 - 05:50 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jan 19 - 06:07 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Jan 19 - 06:11 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 19 - 06:17 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 19 - 06:29 AM
KarenH 22 Jan 19 - 07:25 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 19 - 07:39 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Jan 19 - 07:53 AM
Donuel 22 Jan 19 - 08:21 AM
Iains 22 Jan 19 - 08:59 AM
SPB-Cooperator 22 Jan 19 - 09:06 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 19 - 09:27 AM
Iains 22 Jan 19 - 09:43 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 19 - 09:58 AM
Jon Freeman 22 Jan 19 - 10:05 AM
Stilly River Sage 22 Jan 19 - 10:06 AM
mayomick 22 Jan 19 - 10:36 AM
Stanron 22 Jan 19 - 11:03 AM
DMcG 22 Jan 19 - 11:11 AM
Stanron 22 Jan 19 - 11:19 AM
mayomick 22 Jan 19 - 11:31 AM
Iains 22 Jan 19 - 11:45 AM
SPB-Cooperator 22 Jan 19 - 11:51 AM
Iains 22 Jan 19 - 11:53 AM
KarenH 22 Jan 19 - 12:10 PM
DMcG 22 Jan 19 - 12:33 PM
David Carter (UK) 22 Jan 19 - 12:41 PM
Iains 22 Jan 19 - 01:09 PM
The Sandman 22 Jan 19 - 01:38 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 19 - 03:11 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 19 - 03:29 PM
Iains 22 Jan 19 - 03:32 PM
Iains 22 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM
The Sandman 22 Jan 19 - 04:24 PM
bobad 22 Jan 19 - 04:49 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jan 19 - 04:49 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 19 - 05:06 PM
The Sandman 22 Jan 19 - 05:31 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 19 - 05:48 PM
Raggytash 22 Jan 19 - 06:13 PM
Raggytash 22 Jan 19 - 06:58 PM
SPB-Cooperator 23 Jan 19 - 12:14 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 Jan 19 - 02:55 AM
Iains 23 Jan 19 - 04:15 AM
David Carter (UK) 23 Jan 19 - 04:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jan 19 - 04:20 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Jan 19 - 04:31 AM
Iains 23 Jan 19 - 04:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jan 19 - 05:09 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Jan 19 - 07:07 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Jan 19 - 07:10 AM
SPB-Cooperator 23 Jan 19 - 08:06 AM
Iains 23 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM
Jack Campin 23 Jan 19 - 09:25 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 19 - 10:10 AM
Donuel 23 Jan 19 - 10:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 19 - 10:50 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Jan 19 - 10:58 AM
keberoxu 23 Jan 19 - 11:06 AM
Iains 23 Jan 19 - 12:08 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 19 - 12:26 PM
DMcG 23 Jan 19 - 12:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 19 - 01:02 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 19 - 01:26 PM
Iains 23 Jan 19 - 01:55 PM
Big Al Whittle 23 Jan 19 - 02:07 PM
keberoxu 23 Jan 19 - 02:13 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 19 - 02:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jan 19 - 02:57 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 19 - 03:30 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Jan 19 - 03:30 PM
Senoufou 23 Jan 19 - 03:32 PM
Jos 23 Jan 19 - 04:15 PM
Senoufou 23 Jan 19 - 04:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 19 - 05:39 PM
SPB-Cooperator 23 Jan 19 - 07:50 PM
robomatic 23 Jan 19 - 08:35 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 19 - 09:10 PM
Big Al Whittle 23 Jan 19 - 11:15 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Jan 19 - 01:46 AM
DMcG 24 Jan 19 - 01:55 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 19 - 02:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jan 19 - 03:16 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Jan 19 - 03:45 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 19 - 03:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 04:34 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 05:48 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 06:44 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 06:49 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 19 - 07:13 AM
DMcG 24 Jan 19 - 07:50 AM
bobad 24 Jan 19 - 08:03 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM
The Sandman 24 Jan 19 - 08:49 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 09:36 AM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Jan 19 - 09:41 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 19 - 09:48 AM
MikeL2 24 Jan 19 - 10:01 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 10:10 AM
David Carter (UK) 24 Jan 19 - 10:20 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 10:23 AM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Jan 19 - 10:38 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 19 - 11:30 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Jan 19 - 11:36 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Jan 19 - 11:38 AM
DMcG 24 Jan 19 - 12:07 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 19 - 12:09 PM
KarenH 24 Jan 19 - 12:50 PM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 12:54 PM
DMcG 24 Jan 19 - 01:01 PM
David Carter (UK) 24 Jan 19 - 02:10 PM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 02:16 PM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 02:18 PM
robomatic 24 Jan 19 - 02:51 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 19 - 03:02 PM
Raggytash 24 Jan 19 - 03:12 PM
Jos 24 Jan 19 - 03:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 19 - 03:59 PM
The Sandman 24 Jan 19 - 04:26 PM
mayomick 24 Jan 19 - 06:15 PM
KarenH 24 Jan 19 - 06:36 PM
mayomick 24 Jan 19 - 06:55 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 07:24 PM
The Sandman 24 Jan 19 - 07:35 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 07:40 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 07:46 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 19 - 07:56 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 08:14 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 19 - 08:37 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 08:57 PM
mayomick 24 Jan 19 - 09:09 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 09:47 PM
The Sandman 25 Jan 19 - 03:25 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jan 19 - 03:29 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 04:06 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 04:10 AM
DMcG 25 Jan 19 - 04:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 19 - 04:45 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jan 19 - 04:53 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jan 19 - 05:12 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 05:18 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 05:51 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 19 - 06:27 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 07:52 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jan 19 - 07:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 19 - 08:10 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 08:22 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 08:27 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 08:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 19 - 08:47 AM
DMcG 25 Jan 19 - 09:07 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 09:16 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 09:23 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 09:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 19 - 09:42 AM
DMcG 25 Jan 19 - 10:17 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 11:00 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 11:10 AM
DMcG 25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 11:20 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 11:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 19 - 01:11 PM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 02:04 PM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 02:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 02:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 19 - 02:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 19 - 02:46 PM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 03:35 PM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 03:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 19 - 03:55 PM
Raggytash 25 Jan 19 - 04:00 PM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 04:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 19 - 07:29 PM
robomatic 25 Jan 19 - 08:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 19 - 02:25 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 19 - 03:05 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 19 - 03:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 19 - 03:50 AM
DMcG 26 Jan 19 - 11:36 AM
Iains 26 Jan 19 - 11:56 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jan 19 - 12:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 19 - 12:43 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 19 - 01:13 PM
Iains 26 Jan 19 - 01:16 PM
Iains 26 Jan 19 - 01:26 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 19 - 02:41 PM
DMcG 26 Jan 19 - 02:55 PM
Iains 26 Jan 19 - 03:00 PM
Iains 26 Jan 19 - 04:46 PM
DMcG 26 Jan 19 - 05:33 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 19 - 08:04 PM
DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 02:20 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jan 19 - 03:47 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jan 19 - 03:47 AM
Iains 27 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM
Iains 27 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM
SPB-Cooperator 27 Jan 19 - 05:13 AM
DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 05:30 AM
DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 05:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jan 19 - 05:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jan 19 - 05:41 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jan 19 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jan 19 - 05:56 AM
Iains 27 Jan 19 - 06:38 AM
Iains 27 Jan 19 - 06:43 AM
DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 06:49 AM
DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 06:51 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jan 19 - 07:02 AM
Iains 27 Jan 19 - 07:12 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jan 19 - 07:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jan 19 - 07:24 AM
SPB-Cooperator 27 Jan 19 - 07:29 AM
DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM
SPB-Cooperator 27 Jan 19 - 07:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jan 19 - 07:53 AM
DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 07:54 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM
Iains 27 Jan 19 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jan 19 - 09:06 AM
Iains 27 Jan 19 - 09:31 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jan 19 - 11:22 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Jan 19 - 12:38 PM
Donuel 27 Jan 19 - 01:50 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Jan 19 - 02:14 PM
Iains 27 Jan 19 - 03:10 PM
Nigel Parsons 27 Jan 19 - 05:58 PM
Nigel Parsons 27 Jan 19 - 06:02 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jan 19 - 08:10 PM
DMcG 28 Jan 19 - 02:05 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jan 19 - 02:57 AM
Iains 28 Jan 19 - 04:48 AM
Iains 28 Jan 19 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jan 19 - 05:05 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jan 19 - 05:36 AM
Iains 28 Jan 19 - 05:50 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jan 19 - 06:48 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jan 19 - 07:18 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jan 19 - 07:23 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jan 19 - 07:24 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jan 19 - 07:26 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jan 19 - 07:26 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jan 19 - 07:29 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jan 19 - 07:33 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jan 19 - 07:35 AM
Iains 28 Jan 19 - 08:02 AM
Iains 28 Jan 19 - 08:21 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jan 19 - 08:25 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jan 19 - 08:29 AM
Jack Campin 28 Jan 19 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jan 19 - 09:03 AM
Iains 28 Jan 19 - 09:03 AM
DMcG 28 Jan 19 - 09:08 AM
Iains 28 Jan 19 - 10:04 AM
Raggytash 28 Jan 19 - 10:16 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jan 19 - 10:17 AM
DMcG 28 Jan 19 - 10:33 AM
Raggytash 28 Jan 19 - 10:38 AM
DMcG 28 Jan 19 - 11:51 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jan 19 - 12:19 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jan 19 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jan 19 - 01:06 PM
mayomick 28 Jan 19 - 01:27 PM
Iains 28 Jan 19 - 02:47 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Jan 19 - 03:06 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jan 19 - 03:07 PM
DMcG 28 Jan 19 - 03:22 PM
Raggytash 28 Jan 19 - 03:23 PM
Iains 28 Jan 19 - 04:07 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jan 19 - 05:28 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jan 19 - 07:12 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jan 19 - 08:22 PM
DMcG 29 Jan 19 - 02:06 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jan 19 - 03:19 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Jan 19 - 03:35 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jan 19 - 04:09 AM
Iains 29 Jan 19 - 04:25 AM
SPB-Cooperator 29 Jan 19 - 04:38 AM
Iains 29 Jan 19 - 04:49 AM
peteaberdeen 29 Jan 19 - 04:54 AM
Iains 29 Jan 19 - 04:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM
DMcG 29 Jan 19 - 06:14 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jan 19 - 06:31 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Jan 19 - 07:20 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jan 19 - 07:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Jan 19 - 07:56 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jan 19 - 08:05 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Jan 19 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jan 19 - 08:23 AM
DMcG 29 Jan 19 - 08:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 19 - 08:56 AM
Iains 29 Jan 19 - 09:22 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jan 19 - 09:35 AM
SPB-Cooperator 29 Jan 19 - 09:56 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jan 19 - 10:12 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jan 19 - 10:14 AM
Iains 29 Jan 19 - 10:25 AM
Iains 29 Jan 19 - 11:02 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jan 19 - 11:06 AM
Iains 29 Jan 19 - 12:21 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jan 19 - 12:39 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Jan 19 - 01:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 19 - 01:24 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jan 19 - 01:25 PM
Backwoodsman 29 Jan 19 - 01:33 PM
DMcG 29 Jan 19 - 02:02 PM
DMcG 29 Jan 19 - 03:42 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jan 19 - 03:49 PM
DMcG 29 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM
Iains 29 Jan 19 - 04:33 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jan 19 - 06:25 PM
bobad 29 Jan 19 - 06:29 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jan 19 - 07:03 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jan 19 - 07:59 PM
mayomick 29 Jan 19 - 09:45 PM
Backwoodsman 30 Jan 19 - 02:00 AM
DMcG 30 Jan 19 - 02:19 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Jan 19 - 02:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 19 - 04:19 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Jan 19 - 04:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 19 - 05:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 30 Jan 19 - 05:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 19 - 06:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Jan 19 - 08:14 AM
Iains 30 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 19 - 08:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 19 - 09:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 19 - 09:36 AM
Mossback 30 Jan 19 - 10:37 AM
Iains 30 Jan 19 - 11:30 AM
Iains 30 Jan 19 - 11:46 AM
mayomick 30 Jan 19 - 12:02 PM
Backwoodsman 30 Jan 19 - 12:04 PM
Backwoodsman 30 Jan 19 - 12:08 PM
mayomick 30 Jan 19 - 12:12 PM
mayomick 30 Jan 19 - 12:38 PM
Iains 30 Jan 19 - 12:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jan 19 - 04:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jan 19 - 05:45 AM
peteaberdeen 31 Jan 19 - 10:36 AM
Iains 31 Jan 19 - 12:34 PM
Iains 31 Jan 19 - 12:48 PM
DMcG 31 Jan 19 - 01:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jan 19 - 02:45 PM
Iains 31 Jan 19 - 03:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jan 19 - 03:33 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Jan 19 - 03:37 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jan 19 - 04:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM
Iains 31 Jan 19 - 04:27 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jan 19 - 05:17 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Jan 19 - 05:41 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jan 19 - 05:46 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Feb 19 - 02:01 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 03:50 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 04:26 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 04:44 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 06:30 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Feb 19 - 06:43 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 06:59 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 07:36 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Feb 19 - 07:41 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 07:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 08:39 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 08:45 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 08:57 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 09:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM
Nigel Parsons 01 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Feb 19 - 01:58 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Feb 19 - 02:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 02:30 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM
Raggytash 01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM
Raggytash 01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 03:35 PM
Donuel 01 Feb 19 - 03:43 PM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 03:53 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Feb 19 - 04:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 05:17 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 05:40 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Feb 19 - 07:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 19 - 07:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Feb 19 - 02:44 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Feb 19 - 03:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Feb 19 - 03:14 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Feb 19 - 03:19 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Feb 19 - 03:32 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM
Iains 02 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 19 - 05:49 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 19 - 06:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Feb 19 - 07:18 AM
DMcG 02 Feb 19 - 07:24 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM
Iains 02 Feb 19 - 10:24 AM
peteaberdeen 02 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM
Iains 02 Feb 19 - 12:50 PM
Backwoodsman 02 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Feb 19 - 02:19 PM
Raggytash 02 Feb 19 - 02:34 PM
DMcG 02 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM
Iains 02 Feb 19 - 03:22 PM
Iains 02 Feb 19 - 03:29 PM
DMcG 02 Feb 19 - 05:09 PM
Iains 03 Feb 19 - 04:22 AM
DMcG 03 Feb 19 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM
Iains 03 Feb 19 - 06:21 AM
DMcG 03 Feb 19 - 09:32 AM
Iains 03 Feb 19 - 12:43 PM
DMcG 03 Feb 19 - 01:08 PM
Iains 03 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Feb 19 - 03:37 PM
Nigel Parsons 03 Feb 19 - 06:02 PM
DMcG 03 Feb 19 - 06:16 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Feb 19 - 09:28 PM
Stanron 03 Feb 19 - 09:40 PM
DMcG 04 Feb 19 - 01:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Feb 19 - 03:00 AM
DMcG 04 Feb 19 - 03:32 AM
peteaberdeen 04 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Feb 19 - 03:45 AM
Iains 04 Feb 19 - 05:00 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Feb 19 - 05:07 AM
bobad 04 Feb 19 - 07:35 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Feb 19 - 11:54 AM
Mossback 04 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM
Iains 04 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM
bobad 04 Feb 19 - 12:56 PM
Backwoodsman 04 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM
Iains 04 Feb 19 - 01:59 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Feb 19 - 04:01 PM
Big Al Whittle 04 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM
Big Al Whittle 04 Feb 19 - 04:49 PM
Iains 05 Feb 19 - 03:29 AM
Iains 05 Feb 19 - 03:38 AM
The Sandman 05 Feb 19 - 04:13 AM
Iains 05 Feb 19 - 04:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 Feb 19 - 05:10 AM
Iains 05 Feb 19 - 07:20 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Feb 19 - 07:54 AM
David Carter (UK) 05 Feb 19 - 09:31 AM
Iains 05 Feb 19 - 10:39 AM
DMcG 05 Feb 19 - 01:17 PM
Raggytash 05 Feb 19 - 03:02 PM
Iains 05 Feb 19 - 03:33 PM
Iains 05 Feb 19 - 03:56 PM
David Carter (UK) 05 Feb 19 - 04:13 PM
Iains 05 Feb 19 - 04:37 PM
DMcG 05 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Feb 19 - 08:17 PM
DMcG 06 Feb 19 - 01:55 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Feb 19 - 02:52 AM
Thompson 06 Feb 19 - 02:54 AM
Iains 06 Feb 19 - 04:29 AM
DMcG 06 Feb 19 - 07:17 AM
Iains 06 Feb 19 - 07:23 AM
DMcG 06 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM
Stanron 06 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM
DMcG 06 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM
Stanron 06 Feb 19 - 08:18 AM
DMcG 06 Feb 19 - 08:40 AM
Thompson 06 Feb 19 - 08:50 AM
SPB-Cooperator 06 Feb 19 - 08:53 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Feb 19 - 09:59 AM
Senoufou 06 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM
Stanron 06 Feb 19 - 05:01 PM
Raggytash 06 Feb 19 - 05:15 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM
DMcG 06 Feb 19 - 05:42 PM
Stanron 06 Feb 19 - 06:16 PM
DMcG 07 Feb 19 - 01:34 AM
David Carter (UK) 07 Feb 19 - 03:53 AM
Iains 07 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM
Iains 07 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 19 - 05:59 AM
David Carter (UK) 07 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM
Stanron 07 Feb 19 - 07:37 AM
DMcG 07 Feb 19 - 07:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM
Iains 07 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 08:26 AM
Iains 07 Feb 19 - 09:00 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Feb 19 - 09:14 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM
Stanron 07 Feb 19 - 09:34 AM
DMcG 07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM
Stanron 07 Feb 19 - 10:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 19 - 10:13 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Feb 19 - 10:22 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 10:43 AM
Iains 07 Feb 19 - 11:08 AM
Iains 07 Feb 19 - 11:55 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 01:09 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM
DMcG 07 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 02:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Feb 19 - 03:26 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Feb 19 - 03:30 AM
Monique 08 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Feb 19 - 04:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Feb 19 - 04:25 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Feb 19 - 06:18 AM
Iains 08 Feb 19 - 06:31 AM
DMcG 08 Feb 19 - 06:45 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Feb 19 - 06:51 AM
DMcG 08 Feb 19 - 07:02 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM
KarenH 08 Feb 19 - 07:57 AM
Iains 08 Feb 19 - 09:06 AM
DMcG 08 Feb 19 - 09:52 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 19 - 09:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Feb 19 - 10:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM
Iains 08 Feb 19 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM
Iains 08 Feb 19 - 12:42 PM
DMcG 08 Feb 19 - 01:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Feb 19 - 05:29 PM
Backwoodsman 08 Feb 19 - 05:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Feb 19 - 02:59 AM
Iains 09 Feb 19 - 03:31 AM
DMcG 09 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Feb 19 - 03:59 AM
Iains 09 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM
DMcG 09 Feb 19 - 04:13 AM
KarenH 09 Feb 19 - 07:20 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Feb 19 - 07:33 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 19 - 10:07 AM
Iains 09 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM
Iains 09 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM
DMcG 09 Feb 19 - 10:58 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 19 - 11:27 AM
Raggytash 09 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Feb 19 - 11:52 AM
DMcG 09 Feb 19 - 12:00 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 19 - 12:09 PM
Raggytash 09 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM
Iains 09 Feb 19 - 01:36 PM
Iains 10 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM
DMcG 10 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM
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Jim Carroll 18 Feb 19 - 08:28 AM
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Iains 18 Feb 19 - 12:16 PM
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Dave the Gnome 18 Feb 19 - 12:26 PM
Iains 18 Feb 19 - 12:46 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 19 - 01:29 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Feb 19 - 01:43 PM
Iains 18 Feb 19 - 01:54 PM
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Jim Carroll 19 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Feb 19 - 07:23 AM
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Backwoodsman 19 Feb 19 - 08:13 AM
KarenH 19 Feb 19 - 10:03 AM
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Jim Carroll 20 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM
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Iains 20 Feb 19 - 05:18 AM
DMcG 20 Feb 19 - 07:03 AM
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Subject: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:01 AM

The closure of the thread feels like collective punishment. Latterly, most of us have been stridently trying to resist the inanities of the one idiot who has been messing up the thread by sidelining him. Contrary to what the closer of the thread seemed to be claiming, discussion of this topic has far from run its course and things are set to move on dramatically quickly in the next few weeks. It's actually history in the making, no exaggeration, and we should be able to talk about it. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:10 AM

In fairness, most of us have played some part in closing it - some more than others
This will continue to happen until we start to police ourselves and control our own behaviour as well as dealing with the real gluggers

I read this morning that forty-plus Tory MPs have threatened to resign if they (the House of Common members) aren't given the final say on Brexit
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:11 AM

Jim, we have been trying to police ourselves in recent days. We can stop him if we try.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:14 AM

I feel I must congratulate the mud elf for their public display of good taste in closing the previous thread. Describing one's unsavoury bowel habits in order to make a point is thoroughly distasteful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:50 AM

Thanks for trying, Steve. Alas, I fear the Moderators' Pet will get this thread closed too, judging by his first contribution. UNLESS - everyone completely sidelines him. No responses whatsoever, either direct or indirect, to his provocation.

It's the only way to demonstrate who are, and who are not, the 'bastards' (as the Mods so charmingly describe those who challenge bigotry and provocation) on here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM

"We can stop him if we try."
Can we not make this about him please
While we respond to him we become part of it, as a mod has just pointed out to me - now the Mods have been made fully aware of hat e is, he can't continue as he has for much longer anyway
Ignore him - all of us, if we want this thread (and BS section) to survive

Onward and upward to Brexit - or hopefully to kicking it into touch
I don't agree with you about referendums Steve - they've changed Irish Society for the better and there's no reason they can't do the same for Britain if they are presented properly and not used as Populist maneuvering   
It seems to me that the only answer to the present fiasco is to put the vote to the people again - now the clownish behaviour of the establishment and the revelations as to what leaving Europe will bring will at last give the electorate some idea of what they are voting for rather than the unfulfillable promises that brought about this mess in the first place
It has to be done by open debate, not within the Parliamentary greenhouse - I'd love to see Posh-Boy Moggie face to face with the articulate debater Corbyn seems to be becoming - I know who my money would be on
If, after all this, a majority ('bout time PR was considered for eections) still want to leave there's not much you can do about it
I have little doubt the people will sort it out anyway when things do go radically wrong - with a great deal of added hardship to the have-nots who have to pick up the tab, of course

Parliamentary debate has become little more than meaningless words shouted over a constant noise from a herd of bleating sheep
Let's see the the thing thrashed out openly by articulate people and for Christ's sake, let someone point out the inhumanity of using refugees from wars and poverty Britain has helped and even facilitated, as political pawns
It's about time Britain's situation in all this was dealt with holistically rather than a series of separate issues
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:07 AM

Good news about brexit

On balance I think there is more bad than good but in the interests of fairness I think this piece should be included. Even if it is by the co-editor of "The Conservative Woman" :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:11 AM

Like Steve, I've been against another referendum (I dislike referendums as a matter of principle - they seem to me to be a cowardly cop-out by the very people we have elected to very well-paid positions of responsibility for making these decisions on our behalf. As the saying goes, you don't keep a dog and bark yourself.

But I'm coming round to thinking that, with May's intransigence, the government's paralysis, and the unwillingness of many MPs to do what they know in their hearts is best for the country as a whole, a 'second referendum' is probably the best route to take.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:17 AM

She's deluded.

Nothing to either agree or disagree with me about, Jim. Whilst I am opposed to referendums, because they dress up complex issues as simple binary decisions to be put before an uninformed public, I've said more than once that there may be no other way out of this mess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:29 AM

Parliament are never going to decide anything seriously without putting their own self-interests first, as partied, as individual investors (as many of them are, and as career politicians) - they never have and certainly aren't likely to now
They need to be made answerable to their responsibilities and their promises - until they are, the people need a voice in what happens to their lives and their communities
Five years of promises that will not be honoured is as far from democracy as is Parliamentary dictatorship
On issues of national importance I can't see any alternative other than referenda
Sorry - 'Mary Queen of Scots' calls - see y'all tomorrow
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: KarenH
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 07:25 AM

I am sorry, but for me Jim's conduct has had as much to do with wrecking the thread as anybody else's. If, and I say if, he is feeling proud of having done this, or feels that he has achieved some kind of victory, then I would just like to register a feeling that he is mistaken.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 07:39 AM

Karen, we are actually trying very hard right now to sideline the real villain of the piece. Jim is now onside. If we ignore troll posts and talk about brexit, we may just manage to keep the topic alive. What's done is done. There is genuinely something important to talk about here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 07:53 AM

Karen, I think Jim will be the first to admit that his behaviour has left much to be desired at times. I also think that several of us are working to help Jim refrain from being reactive to the disgraceful provocation - the bile and vitriol, the name-calling, the deliberate attempts (often unfortunately successful) to 'press buttons', aimed at him and, to possibly a lesser extent, to others here - by his Nemesis.

I know that Jim is trying hard to improve his behaviour, as are the others I referred to, by refusing to react or respond to provocation - the only one who, as yet, seems unable to acknowledge his own part in all the trouble on the 'Brexit #2' thread is the aforementioned provocateur, whose single contribution to this thread so far is in precisely the same provocative vein as the vast majority of his posts on the closed thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 08:21 AM

Then let this be about the associated Brexit conundrums instead of searching for the one true villain amoung many.
Brexit has its own HBO movie staring Kumberbatch. Too bad the script writer didn't consult with you folks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 08:59 AM

To get back on track!
'Stop reporting fake news!' BBC forced to apologise for 'editing' Brexiteer Newsnight clip

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1075950/Brexit-news-BBC-Newsnight-UK-Nadine-Dorries-Conservative-Party-latest


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 09:06 AM

Will this government ever do what is right for the country if they know that in doing so it will divide their support at the ballot box?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 09:27 AM

No they won't. The long, sorry history of Toryism in this country is to prioritise looking after their own (the wealthy, the landowners, the landlords, the tycoons and the fast-buck spivs) and to look after the interests of the Tory party. If they change from that, they won't be Tories any more. Unfortunately, at the moment it's hard to see an effective alternative that would be any different. We just have to keep fighting from within, that's all. The first step is to make sure that Corbyn realises that he's wrong to support brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 09:43 AM

They walk among us!

Fresh from telling his constituents that he knows better than them, Labour’s Ipswich MP Sandy Martin has claimed in his ‘weekly column’ that the Prime Minister had met with Corbyn to discuss Brexit options. A meeting she offered but the Labour leader famously refused to accept…


https://order-order.com/2019/01/22/know-better-labour-mp-now-lies-constituents/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 09:58 AM

From The Department Of The Bleedin' Obvious: the EU has confirmed what we knew all along but what the leavers shoved under the carpet: a no-deal brexit would mean a hard border between the Republic and the North. Of course it would. We can't expect to be made a special case. It would be a border between an EU country and a non-EU country. Hard border. Simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 10:05 AM

That part of the game...

These nasty Europeans will do what they're told because we are British and if they don't, they are bullying us...

Anyway, these threads go nowhere but I couldn't resist one comment on a third restart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 10:06 AM

Steve, when the thread gets really long a couple of things happen - people veer all over the place topic-wise and it's difficult to moderate those few fighting, spam, or non sequitur posts that need to go. From this side of the pond it sounds like the Brexit conversation has entered another (perhaps even more precarious) stage, and it seemed a good time to start again. Any of you who want to review the 2,815 posts of the Brexit #2 thread are more than welcome to look back. I suspect that unless someone is mining it for old links they posted, it the conversation will simply move on from here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 10:36 AM

The British government’s insistence on upholding the result of the democratically-convened 2016 Brexit referendum is quite understandable .A quandary arises however because the outcomes of the democratically-held referendums in both the north and south of Ireland backed terms reached in the Good Friday Agreement negotiations that require “avoidance” of a physical border on the island of Ireland.

It’s hard to explain Irish history to British people who don’t want to be constantly reminded about Ireland and their country’s own involvement in Ireland’s history. Some in the UK -and indeed some in Poland whose citizens in the UK feel put at risk by Brexit - think that the Irish are being stubborn at the moment and that the GFA –an international agreement - should be set aside or its wording modified or reinterpreted in order to facilitate Theresa May’s Brexit negotiations .

Britain has said that it will not erect a hard border in Ireland : the EU said this morning that it will build a hard border in the event of a no deal being reached. That‘s the dilemma that Brexit has put EU member Ireland in : if Ireland remains in the EU and no deal has been reached , will it be party to breaking the border-avoidance clause in the Good Friday Agreement ? The GFA was worded using the language of “constructive ambiguity” so as to get most parties on side with the deal -the DUP never supported it . All parties will now be looking for nuances in meaning for the word “avoid” perhaps. But it will be difficult for any Irish government to sign up to a hard border.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:03 AM

There is no NEED for any kind of border between the EU and the UK. All our laws and all our regulations and all our tariffs are 100% aligned and identical. The need for a border is an invention of the EU and the reason for this invention is good subject for speculation.

Speculation 1. Based on the fear that other members may be tempted to follow suit and leave, the EU wants to be seen to be punitive towards leavers.

Speculation 2. The EU knows that a significant number, although not majority, of UK citizens do not want to leave. This large minority (actually a majority of MPs) will do their best to prevent Brexit even to the point of damaging the UK. The EU therefor gives as little as possible and asks as much as possible knowing that remainers will attempt to sabotage a successful exit. An example is the remainers insistance that 'No Deal' is taken off the table. No Deal will damage the EU far more that the it will damage the UK. It should be a really good bargaining tool. The remainers do not want us to have such a good bargaining tool. Also of course 'No Deal' actually means leaving. Every bit of any deal we do will tie us to the EU. The softer the Brexit the greater and tighter the ties will be. No deal means we leave and the remainers have lost completely. Bring it on.

Speculation 3. The EU is a psychotic and nonredeemable political experiment that puts an inflexible ideology before the best interests of it's member states and their populations. They would do this wouldn't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:11 AM

It is possible there WOULD be no need if all our regulations etc were the same for all time. But as our declared intention is to change these, a border or some other scheme will be required to inspect matters arising these differences as soon as they arise. Merely being the same at the moment is not enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:19 AM

So Speculation 4 is fear of the future? That's not very healthy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:31 AM

That speculation is possibly right Stanton , the EU was actually very shakey before the UK referendum . Leading Brexiteers knew that and wanted to get out first - steal a march on other member states .EU leaders know that Brexit can only work for the Brexiteers at the expense of other powerful EU countries.If the wrecking operation involved in the EU’s most powerful country quitting the bloc is successful then Britain will come out dominant .So the EU leaders are taking steps to prevent a no-deal situation and keep the UK tied to the bloc. Can you blame them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:45 AM

Another perspective on the Border question:


https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-northern-ireland-backstop-theresa-may-how-brussels-blew-brexit/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:51 AM

Speculation 5. The drivers for leaving would love to see a breakdown of the EU so that individual states can aggressively compete with each other; without realising that if that happened the UK would soon find out that, quite rightly, the UK population would be trodden into the ground.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:53 AM

the EU has confirmed a no-deal brexit would mean a hard border between the Republic and the North. It would be a border between an EU country and a non-EU country. Hard border. Simple.

"So this hard border.
Are they going to install watch towers with searchlights and machine guns and have barbed wire fences with minefields.
And what is the purpose? To keep people out or keep people in?
Smacks of creeping totalitarianism on the part of the beleaguered Brussels apparatchiks to me."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 12:10 PM

It's hard to explain Irish history to some people


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 12:33 PM

No, Stanron, it is not fear of the future. You need a border of some form to accomodate a difference. That is as true in politics as it is in physics, chemistry and biology, or in social structures like entrance exams. Borders are associated with difference: no difference, no border. A difference, some sort of border. Fear does not come into in the slightest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 12:41 PM

Stanron says, still, despite overwhelming evidence and opinion to the contrary:

"No Deal will damage the EU far more that the it will damage the UK"

And extraordinary statement, which can only be made by someone really quite deluded.

A no deal brexit will reduce UK GDP by of order 10%, and EU GDP by 2-3%.
For the EU its a hiccup. For the UK a catastrophe. The 2008 recession was 6-7% reduction. Only the depression of the 1920s was worse.

So thats what Stanron wishes to "bring on". Economic conditions not quite as bad as the Great Depression. But significantly worse than any we have experienced in our lifetimes (apologies for any one reading who remembers the 1920s).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 01:09 PM

despite overwhelming evidence and opinion to the contrary.
Evidence? Where is this muythical beastie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 01:38 PM

Rupert Murdoch was once asked why he hated the EU so much. ‘That’s easy,’ he replied.’When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.’.
Jim, by using sky box you are financially contributing to rupert murdoch and brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 03:11 PM

We heard you first time, Dick. Thing is, if you made a crusade out of boycotting any company or organisation that supports brexit, or has directors or CEOs who support brexit, well frankly you wouldn't be able to live your life. Anyway, Dick, I pay five quid a month for Sky Sports Mobile so that I can watch Liverpool in the Premier League and I'm buggered if I'm giving it up. I'd sooner hack off my meat and two veg with a rusty machete, frankly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 03:29 PM

A couple of things. First, the EU contains nearly half a billion people, about seven or eight times our population, so it's arrant nonsense to suggest that the EU will somehow come off worse. Second, the EU is not blocking anything. We started this and the EU has to stick to its own rules. It's actually playing a very straight bat. We are the bad boy who can't expect special treatment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 03:32 PM

No deal could cause a spike in adultery!!!!

From guido! It must be right.


https://order-order.com/2019/01/22/project-fling-no-deal-cause-35-spike-adultery/#disqus_thread


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM

The road to hell is paved with good? intentions.
The european dream is having a few hiccups.


https://www.rt.com/news/449388-macron-king-executives-execute-reforms/

Note what happened 226 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 04:24 PM

NO STEVE I disagree if i owned a television which i used to i made a conscious decision not to support sky or murdoch. i run a festival www.maritime.com i discovered when i paid my radio advertising bill that county sound was now opwned by rupert murdoch so i will not advertisec with them again, that is about having principles. Steve and jim you bang on about brexit but you have no right to because you are financially supporting murdoch, Steve, its more important to you to watch a football match shown by sky than to not give money to murdoch , absolutely pathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 04:49 PM

Brexit solution?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 04:49 PM

Another thread killer Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:06 PM

I told you, Dick, you can't run your life that way. I buy stuff from Asda, Amazon, Morrisons, Lidl, Aldi, M&S, Vodafone, BT, Apple, Microsoft, Coopers of Stortford, Specsavers, Tesco, eBay, Ford, Mazda, CPL, Mole Valley Farmers, NFU, Rangemoors at Winkleigh, Waitrose, John Lewis, Costa, Caffé Nero, Lakeland, Woolacotts, Spar, the Esso garage in Bude, Sainsbury's, Trago Mills, Donald Russell, Gloucester Services, the local butcher and the local fishmonger. Within many of those emporia I buy stuff made by Heinz, Colmans, Hellmans, the local dairy, Napolina, Roddas, Trewithen, Kraft, Cadburys, Nestlé, Weetabix, Kellogg's, Yeo Valley, Fairy, Kenwood, Delonghi, Duracell, Energiser, Rowntree, Green and Blacks, Davidstow creamery, Canon, Panasonic, Philips. And that's the tip of the iceberg. I'm not about to delve into the gargantuan task of finding out what all their brexit stances are or who's running all their shows who might be brexiteers. You can if you want to. I decided that I have to breathe at least some polluted air.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:31 PM

I will not support Murdoch, a man who played a major part in encouraging brexit and a man who played a part inn organised violence at Wapping, and you support him just so that you can watch football pathetic


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:48 PM

Bye, Dick!

Just a feeling I'm getting, but it looks like the impetus for a people's vote is subsiding a bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:13 PM

Whilst I can agree with your sentiment Dick, I do not have the time to trawl through the accounts of every company I have to deal with.

I do not have a Sky package so I go to the pub to watch most sport. (I do have freesat)

Are you suggesting that I should not go the the pub because the pub pays for a Sky package?

As Steve has already suggested most major companys we have to purchase from (there being little, if any alternative) probably have some very dubious practises.

Short of sitting in the kitchen, in the dark and scratching my arse I have little alternative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:58 PM

Wonderful.

James Dyson who has consistently supported Brexit has now announced he is moving the HQ of the company to Singapore.

P&O Ferries are to re-register all their ships to a Cypriot flag, Sony is moving it's European HQ to Amsterdam, away from London.

I feel sure that more and more companies will leave the sinking ship in the next few weeks.

Isn't Brexit ******* marvellous !!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 12:14 AM

So does the exit agreement include powers to charge corporation tax to Singapore and Netherlands registered companies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:55 AM

I think that I’ll vote for Brexit
Though none of my posh friends expects it
I am fairly sure-oh
I’m not at all Euro
But then again Life’s what you meks it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:15 AM

A glimpse of sanity!



https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/--899440.html

Bobad. Love your cartoon! but I cannot entirely agree with the sentiment expressed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:17 AM

We need to keep the impetus going then Steve. No deal brexit cannot be allowed to happen, by keeping it on the table May is holding a gun to the head of the British economy. And the British people. George Osbourne was right about this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:20 AM

Far-right groups could exploit Brexit tensions

Why does this not surprise me one bit? It was interesting to note the following statement that some on here have been denying.

Asked about the background of Brexit, Mr Basu told the BBC: "We saw a spike in hate crime after the referendum, that's never really receded.

So there's always a possibility people are being radicalised by the kind of febrile atmosphere we've got at the moment."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:31 AM

Never thought I'd see the day when I agree with Gideon about anything but, on this occasion, he's absolutely right on the button.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:50 AM

Asked about the background of Brexit, Mr Basu told the BBC:

there was no intelligence pointing to an increased level of attacks after Brexit, but added: "What's most concerning me... is its potential to divide communities and set communities against each other."

But the loopy left also poses a threat!
Britain’s most dangerous export: Corbynism. From Europe's premium policy intelligence service

https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-left-uk-europe-britains-most-dangerous-export-corbynism/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 05:09 AM

Tory MP asks for help from Poland

What a twerp.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 07:07 AM

Just in case anyone is wondering why a leading BrexShiteer would move his business to Singapore...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 07:10 AM

....should have said, "A leading BrexShiteer who preaches Patriotism to the rest of us". Like charity, Patriotism should begin at home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 08:06 AM

Here's another idea - require all people who are paid to enter national public services (ie MPs, MEPs) to publish their tax returns for all countries in which they declare income for the rest of tier lives, with a 7 figure penalty for failing to do so, doubling each year. Although this would be an imposition for the majority of MPs, MEPs, it would show who does have their nose in the trough benefiting from the disarray caused by leaving.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM

Some more spiffing news about brexit!

The Remoaners at the ‘Fair Vote Project’ have suffered a humiliating legal defeat in the High Court in their attempts to force the Government to hold a “Mueller-style inquiry” into the EU referendum. The ‘Fair Vote Project’ was essentially set up as a front group for the so-called Brexit whistleblowers with the backing of the cranks at Byline and ultra-Remainers Best for Britain – the sole director, Kyle Taylor, was previously Field Campaigns Director for Best for Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 09:25 AM

Arts Council factsheet on the effect of Brexit on the arts in the UK.

You're fucked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 10:10 AM

I can’t see any reason why all tax returns aren't publicly accessible, the same way the details of wills are, and the prices at which houses have been sold.
..............................

Those like Theresa May who go on endlessly blaring out about how a fresh referendum would be an affront to democracy and will cause social disruption are in fact acting in a way that must encourage such disruption, by providing justification for it. I rather think that is intentional, pulling in the threat of the mob to intimidate opponents.

Other countries which compare very favourably indeed to the UK when it comes to democratic practices, and a commitment to democratic principles have had second referendum on related issues about the E.U. In the case of Denmark and Ireland the public voted the other way next time, in the case of Norway, they confirmed their decision not to join the EU.

Nobody knows what the majority view in the UK is now. If we think that matters, a referendum at least provides a mechanism for finding that out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 10:43 AM

After exploring the links within links in Jack's post below...
All you folks will probably be referred to 150 different websites to stay abreast of the new rules and the conflicting rules that you will still be subject to.

Better keep your smart phones charged if you even want to travel or buy bread and water.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 10:50 AM

I'm encouraged to see the self control shown so far in this thread. It's quite easy really, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 10:58 AM

Now you've been and went and gone and done it! :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 11:06 AM

Gentlemen! gentlemen! -- and everyone else as well --

it's hugely entertaining for a USA ignoramus like me
to watch you working through all of this.

I was unaware that anyone had called some of you 'bastards.'
Not even Max, to my knowledge, called you that,
and at one point he was genuinely upset with you.

The phrase I heard from a moderator was
"sour testosterone."
Hmmm ... wonder if a UK moderator would make a difference?

Okay, I'll go back to keeping my head down, and listening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 12:08 PM

keberoxu. Hilarious. More posts please!

Meanwhile back at the ranch:

Interesting polling by Number Cruncher Politics which asked voters to choose their least acceptable Brexit outcomes rather than just their favourites. The study reveals that remaining in the EU is the least acceptable Brexit outcome to the British electorate,

Another wily ruse is to suspend Parliament. That'll fix em!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 12:26 PM

Some of us were called bastards in a private message from a moderator to one of us. Just to clear that one up. It wasn't that anyone took offence, but it did appear to betray certain arguably inappropriate allegiances. Please don't ask for any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 12:50 PM

Apparently Rees-Mogg has said it would be "a constitutional outrage" if the moves by Cooper et al end up with Parliament deciding it should block Brexit. To prevent this he raises the idea of proroguing Parliament if that outcome appears likely.

The whole rationale of Parliament is to agree on solution to problems like our current mess. If it looks likely to do so and then action is taken to shut it down to prevent it doing do - well, I know which looks a bigger constitutional outrage to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 01:02 PM

I'm not sure if it's different across the Atlantic, but here "bastards" isn't really particularly strong. Stronger than buggers. - but that's more or less equivalent to "bloke".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 01:26 PM

"Stronger than buggers. - but that's more or less equivalent to "bloke""
Suggest you look in your PM box Mac
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 01:55 PM

Some of us were called bastards in a private message from a moderator to one of us. Just to clear that one up. It wasn't that anyone took offence, but it did appear to betray certain arguably inappropriate allegiances.
pack it in shaw. you are gettingh boring.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:07 PM

that would be a great advertising line

Fishermans Friends....not strong as fuck! But stronger than buggers!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:13 PM

Big Al,
I shudder to think
what the Mudcat would be like, without you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:40 PM

If we were in Oz I suppose we'd have taken it as a backslapping term of endearment, as in "G'day, how's it all going, you old bastard!" Let's move on...

I note with amusement the lack of irony in May's claim that a second referendum would threaten social cohesion. Yeah, right, Treez, like the wrecking of social cohesion caused by your pointless ten years' austerity, your permanent Tory us-and-them syndrome, your million on zero-hours, your all-in-it-together lie of the century, your hostile environment, Windrush, Grenfell, your foodbanks... You ain't seen nuffink yet, Treez, things such as the loss of social cohesion that would result from millions thrown out of work by brexit or by the hard border that you're courting with by refusing to take no-deal off the table. A second referendum, in contrast to all that, would be a thoroughly democratic move. I'm not sure that I think it's the right answer to all this, but then democracy should never simply be in the hands of those who think it might turn against them. Should it, brexiteers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:57 PM

Old cricket joke.

Which one of you bastards called this bastard a bastard?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 03:30 PM

Hey, Dave, that was no joke - it really happened! It was in the "Bodyline" Ashes series of 1932. The England captain was Douglas Jardine, the architect of the bodyline bowling strategy. In other words the biggest bastard among bastards* ever to disgrace a cricket field. He went to the Aussie dressing room to complain that one of the Aussie team had called him a bastard. Vic Richardson, the Aussie vice-captain, turned to his teammates in the room and said: "OK, which of you bastards called this bastard a bastard?"

*Unless Jacob Rees-Mogg has ever played cricket...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 03:30 PM

Could everyone stick to the subject of the thread please, and ignore attempts to divert attention to other topics, and provoke a reaction to them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 03:32 PM

I saw a photo of the Queen and Theresa May today. It was obviously taken at one of the weekly audiences, and some wag had put a speech bubble above the queen's head saying, "Well, you've made a terrible mess of it all haven't you? Would you like me to get Philip to drive you home?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jos
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:15 PM

It was in a link in this thread, Eliza, posted by Bobad early on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:22 PM

Gah! So it was! I get more senile every day! Sorry about that Bobad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 05:39 PM

Just received a copy of "Wetherspoons news" in my letterbox. Packed full of stuff about how wonderful a no deal Brexit will be. The owner of Wetherspoons is really obsessed with Brexit - branching out from just plugging it in the pubs.

I've got a friend who's sworn off going to Wetherspoons, and is a bit shocked I won't. But I can't see boycotting makes much sense in this case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 07:50 PM

Surely the Tory definition of cohesion is everybody consenting without question to their subjugation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 08:35 PM

Since my posts are educational and everybody loves them, I'm going to repeat my post to Mudcat Brexit 2 which was the last post before shutdown:

There's a pretty good National Public Radio Program called On the Media. Saturday I heard their presentation: "Why Brexit Shouldn't Have Been a Surprise"

It was good, particularly in explaining UK business to American ears. I especially appreciated the commentary by Matthew Goodwin, professor of politics and international relations at the University of Kent and author of National Populism: The Revolt Against Liberal Democracy. He had a strong opinion that another referendum would be a bad idea.

I'm not so sure. It might not be a good idea, but it might be the best way out of the morass if it leads to a path forward.

There's a lot of reasons Democracy ain't lookin' so hot these days, but I'll argue considerably that nothing very much looks very good these days, and Democracy is still the best thing out there, compared to all the others, the kleptocracy that is modern Russia, the abject failure of whatever Venezuela called its shoddy form of government, the poor democractic selections on the part of the voters of the Philippines, Hungary, Poland, and Turkey. The digital/capitalist oligarchy/dictatorship running China, and the religiously intolerant regimes in India and Burma(Myanmar).

For relaxation I've been reading the Wikipedia entry on The European Union and the early reading part of it is so idealistic, harking back to days when Victor Hugo in previous centry and later Winston Churchill called for a "United States of Europe". Less relaxing is the recent Brexit movie full of current day fakenews digital realpolitick (although Benedict Cumberbatch is a national treasure).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 09:10 PM

Well in my opinion the European Union is, among major political and economic blocs, almost the last bastion of democracy on the planet. Up to a couple of years ago, I might have wanted to include the US in that, but no longer. It's true that the EU endures a democratic deficit: members of its parliament are elected by tiny turnouts, a very bad thing, and EU laws and regulations are instigated by an unelected commission. However, contrary to the claims of its critics, no law or regulation may be adopted without the consent of the 28 nations and their elected representatives, and the general ethos is that regulations are adopted by common consent rather than divisive voting, and there are various levels of veto available, especially to larger nations such as the UK. If you look at individual nations that are held up to be great examples of democracy you'll find democratic deficits just as serious. You only have to look at the behaviour of Theresa May, with her serial efforts to sideline Parliament over the last two years or more, if you want a shining example of that.

We weaken and undermine the EU, for all its shortcomings, at our peril. Its destruction would leave a world without any major democratic blocs. To put it more scarily, it would leave us with Trump's America, Putin's Russia, a lifetime dictator in China, a whole host of despotic regimes in the Middle East and the ascendancy of the far right here, there and everywhere. That isn't a world I want for myself, my kids and my grandchild, thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 11:15 PM

I always thought the Commonwealth countries were more loyal and reliable allies than anyone looking east.

That's one of the reasons I voted against going into the EEC in '74.

Still if that's how you feel Steve, fair enough. Its all down to gut feeling, and that's why a lot of this arguing is futile.

Doubly futile, cos no one gives a shit what we think or what we vote for. The bosses will get away with whatever serves their interests best. And that's anyone's guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 01:46 AM

"Well in my opinion the European Union is, among major political and economic blocs, almost the last bastion of democracy on the planet. Up to a couple of years ago, I might have wanted to include the US in that, but no longer. It's true that the EU endures a democratic deficit: members of its parliament are elected by tiny turnouts, a very bad thing, and EU laws and regulations are instigated by an unelected commission. However, contrary to the claims of its critics, no law or regulation may be adopted without the consent of the 28 nations and their elected representatives, and the general ethos is that regulations are adopted by common consent rather than divisive voting, and there are various levels of veto available, especially to larger nations such as the UK. If you look at individual nations that are held up to be great examples of democracy you'll find democratic deficits just as serious. You only have to look at the behaviour of Theresa May, with her serial efforts to sideline Parliament over the last two years or more, if you want a shining example of that.

We weaken and undermine the EU, for all its shortcomings, at our peril. Its destruction would leave a world without any major democratic blocs. To put it more scarily, it would leave us with Trump's America, Putin's Russia, a lifetime dictator in China, a whole host of despotic regimes in the Middle East and the ascendancy of the far right here, there and everywhere. That isn't a world I want for myself, my kids and my grandchild, thanks."


I second all of that, Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 01:55 AM

I wrote a long spiel but decided I was getting carried away. It boils to if we want to be able to regulate the multinationals, whether physical or the likes of Google, nation-states are too weak. It needs groupings like the EU to stand a chance - and not an especially good chance at that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:43 AM

"I wrote a long spiel but decided I was getting carried away"
Pity - soundbites no longer sum up this catastrophe
pent some time yesterday enquiring about becoming an Irish national as the monster that is Brexit is threatening to lose us some of the privileges of living here if little England goes it alone
Some people really seem not to have got their head around the effect on other countries - never a high priority of the British establishment
We already have signs of a return to violence (from both sides)
NICELY SUMMED UP HERE
In the North and counties like Donegal are benefiting from the misfortuns of the Sic Counties - great for Donegal - not so great for relationships and peace
It seems that predictions of the break-up the UK is now becoming a reality
I've always welcomed the idea of a United Ireland, but not this way - please

"Wetherspoons"
Stopped drinking their piss when they stopped serving Travellers
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:16 AM

It was one pub in North London, Jim. Tarring the whole chain because of the actions of one manager, who has now been "re-educated", is akin to, well, tarring a whole group of people with the actions of a few :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:45 AM

Since i was obliged to be 'on the wagon' in 2005, pubs are of zero interest to me other than as sources of nourishment and opportunities to belt a few tunes and songs out.

But when I did indulge in alcohol, there was (still is) a lovely, welcoming, and well-patronised little pub round the corner from our local Wetherspoons, which specialises in traditional ales and beers - mostly from small, independent breweries, properly kept by a skilled and knowledgeable owner, and served properly by the owner and his experienced staff. Why on earth would I want to go to a soulless chain-owned barn selling crap beer, where they need bouncers on the door to keep an eye on the hordes of young people who go there to guzzle lager and shout at one another?

And if I want food, instead of Wetherspoons' microwave shite, I go to one of several locally-owned cafés or restaurants and have real food, properly cooked and presented in nice surroundings.

As far as I'm concerned, that dick can take his crappy Wetherspoons and shove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:48 AM

"who has now been "re-educated""
Fined, you mean
It was a joke Dave - never really liked Weatherspoons anyway - the nearest to us in London was right opposite Young's Brewery - the finest in the world until progress (pronounced "PISS") drove it out of business
Sorry lads - mustn't interrupt the flow - quite an apt phrase, don'cha think
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM

I think with a company fine of £24,000 the manager was probably 're-educated' right out of the door :-) I

I must go in different Weatherspoons. All the ones I have been in have been fine with a good range of beer and food. But, yes, nowt to do with Brexit really so I shall leave it at that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 04:34 AM

Dyson moving HQ to Singapore.

To put that in some kind of perspective: (from June 2016)

https://janetteheffernan.blogspot.com/2016/06/brexit-list-of-uk-companies-no-longer.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 05:48 AM

"It boils to if we want to be able to regulate the multinationals, whether physical or the likes of Google, nation-states are too weak. It needs groupings like the EU to stand a chance - and not an especially good chance at that."

Excellent point, DMcG. If we allow unelected mega-companies to rule the roost (as well as unelected, powerful lobby groups) we can kiss democracy goodbye, and individual little countries, far from wanting to regulate the corporations, will bend over backwards to cut their tax liabilities to get them in. Not saying that the EU can make much of a fist of it, as you say...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:44 AM

The only reason multinationals behave as they do is because inadequate legislation allows it. The first duty of a company is to look after the shareholders, i.e.maximize profit. Morality,charity and national allegiance is no part of the equation. Others explain it thus:
"Contrary to widespread belief, corporate directors are generally not under any legal obligation to maximise profits for their shareholders. Where directors pursue the latter goal, it is usually a product not of legal obligation but rather of the pressures imposed on them by financial markets, activist shareholders, the threat of a hostile takeover and/or stock-based compensation schemes."

https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-become-people-excavating-the-legal-evolution

https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/business-law-blog/blog/2016/11/modern-corporation-statement-company-law

I am sure it requires no explanation as to why a company may up sticks and relocate to a lower cost base, or a more amenable legislatory environment. It goes without saying that many eastern europeans welcomed the employment opportunities that came there way as a result of the above.
As I demonstrated in a previous link it is EU largesse that encouraged many relocations. To state that the poacher also becomes the gamekeeper seems a particularly bizarre socialist solution that inevitably will crash and burn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:49 AM

"Brittany Ferries have moved to slap down Remainer scaremongering about international travel beyond March, and reassure passenmgers. The iconic ferry company accused the BBC of peddling “nonsense” and reassured potential passengers that they can book beyond March.

    “The company would like to make clear that passengers can book crossings to France and Spain, and sail-and-stay holidays as normal. There is absolutely no truth in speculation that passengers are being advised not to book because all space has been allocated to freight.

    The reality is that Brittany Ferries has added 19 crossings on three of its nine routes leaving the UK. The additional sailings create more space for freight, as requested by the DfT. As a consequence, there is now more choice for passengers rather than less.”

Maybe it’s time for the BBC to start listening to the experts?"
(From Guido, of course!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:13 AM

Well the free movement of capital was largely welcomed, as I remember. It was a necessary adjunct to living in the EEC.

It must be a big temptation to rich people not pay any tax though, wouldn't you think.

I'm not really sure you will eventually sustain a stable society though, if no one invests in anything except real estate.

Anyway - I guess you smart guys have got it all sorted out. You all seem so certain that you are right.

I just wonder why there never seems any room in your minds for doubt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:50 AM


The only reason multinationals behave as they do is because inadequate legislation allows it.


Perhaps, but that raises the question of what is inadequate and why is it inadequate. From a business point of view, a law is not so much a question of "do/don't do this or suffer the penalty" so much as "if we do it and incur the penalty, do we still make a profit?" As example of that was Sunday trading - a number of the big supermarkets openly flouted the law because they thought that the most profitable in the long run. (I am not taking about whether Sunday trading is or is not a good thing - just how companies will ignore the law if the cost-benefit suits them)

Part of the reason they could do this was that they could cross-subsidize penalties from profits on other days, and in the end the law was changed to allow them to trade very much as they wished.

My claim is that any national law will be inadequate - either the company will ignore the law(*) if it is profitable to do so, or they will decide it is not worth trading in a country whose laws make it non-profitable. The only way to overcome this is to the set laws at a higher level than a national law, and have mechanisms that allow the countries in such alliances to reach agreements with each other that can be enforced.

(*) Because even the boards of companies are people, there are still laws they will abide by with little questioning, of course. But the principle that laws are treated as cost-benefit analyses than instructions is, I believe, a consequence of the stuff Iains was saying.

-----

Big Al: I, for one, do not think I have everything worked out - it is all a work-in-progress from my point of view. I have said before, and repeat again here, I would love to be completely wrong about the consequences of Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:03 AM

I just wonder why there never seems any room in your minds for doubt.

The minds of ideologues countenance no doubt, see religious fundamentalists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM

It is not a question of being right or wrong, or even ideology. It is more a study of the facts and their rational interpretation. All other factors being equal a company/corporation/organisation will locate where cost/benefit dictates. A case in point: Ireland
"Ireland was placed 11th out of 82 countries as one of the most attractive business locations in the world in the Economist Intelligence Unit’s (EIU) Business Environment Ranking for 2008-2012.

Experts say that Ireland is attractive because it has one of the lowest corporate tax rates in the world at 12.5 per cent"

https://www.eolasmagazine.ie/what-attracts-companies-to-ireland/

First they say this:https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/tags/corporate-tax_en

Then they sat this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/european-commission-in-fresh-warning-on-irish-corporation-tax-base-1.3690699
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ireland-needs-to-upset-the-apple-cart-on-corporate-tax-1.3674289

So much for member state fiscal independence!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:49 AM

From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 11:15 PM

I always thought the Commonwealth countries were more loyal and reliable allies than anyone looking east.

That's one of the reasons I voted against going into the EEC in '74.

Still if that's how you feel Steve, fair enough. Its all down to gut feeling, and that's why a lot of this arguing is futile.

Doubly futile, cos no one gives a shit what we think or what we vote for. The bosses will get away with whatever serves their interests best. And that's anyone's guess.
A sensible post at last


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:36 AM

"The EU’s long-running duplicity over the Irish border has finally come to a head this week with the Commission wrapping itself up in knots trying to maintain its spurious position on the backstop. After Commission Spokesman Margaritas Schinas caused a major fuss on Tuesday by saying that the EU would force Ireland to erect a hard border in the event of no deal, Michel Barnier let the cat out of the bag yesterday while trying to reverse the diplomatic damage, admitting that in the event of no deal “we will have to find an operational way of carrying out checks and controls without putting back in place a border”, going on to say that “my team have worked hard to study how controls can be made paperless or decentralised, which will be useful in all circumstances.” Thus blowing apart the entire fiction that the backstop is necessary to avoid a hard border…

The Telegraph’s James Crisp grilled Schinas on this very point today, who ended up so flustered by the question that he eventually snapped back: “write what you like”. The sham of needing the backstop to avoid a hard border is finally starting to unravel in Brussels. Time the sycophantic British media and political establishment woke up too…"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:41 AM

Because a number of factors affect choices of where corporations locate, there comes a tipping point which fianally determine these decisions as it is not a simple as moving to the office next door, and it seems that a lot of tipping points have been reached in the last few months as no business is going to base strategic decisions on what may or may not happen and quite rightly up sticks to where there is more certainty about the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:48 AM

When you use a phrase like 'long running duplicity' Iains, its a sort of claim for moral high ground.

isn't this why Mo Mowlem succeded where the Thatcherites failed in NI?

Thatcher categorised her enemies as criminals. Mowlem tried to treat the separate parties at their own assessment of themselves - as men of honour.

I think until all sides grasp this basic tennet of diplomacy, the news is going to be kind of predictable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:01 AM

Hi Al

Beautifully put. " Anyway - I guess you smart guys have got it all sorted out. You all seem so certain that you are right.

I just wonder why there never seems any room in your minds for doubt. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:10 AM

Big Al the EU has used the Irish border as a means to bully the brexit negotiations from day one. The EU picked on the border because they knew that making an issue of it could possibly inflame old wounds.Calling their behaviour duplicitous is a very mild rebuke.It is nor moral high ground.It is a simple statement of fact. To choose the one single item that could cause dissent,and to belabour it constantly indicates to me the weakness of their position. Making the border a stumbling block will hurt the Republic far far harder than the UK, as many realists acknowledge. A shame the political class are not as clued up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:20 AM

If the EU wanted to bully the UK it could do so much more effectively. The EU has in fact shown amazing forbearance, given the self-entitled, intransigent, an at times demented behaviour of the UK government and the far right of the Conservative party who seem to have May in their pockets. The EU is aware that there are decent British people, but sad that they are not the ones coming to Brussels on behalf of the government. So they are trying to soften the outcome for the British people.

If they wanted to bully the British people they would cut off food and energy supplies, and close their waters and airspace to anything heading for Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:23 AM

A little old but fell by the wayside because of squawking abbot.
Question time and the roar of applause:


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/the-cheer-on-question-time-that-will-terrify-corbyns-labour/


and for light relief: Steptoe seniors theme song


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLRjFWDGs1g


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:38 AM

If Brussels oaid for my air fare and accommodation eytc I would talk to them tomorrow, and come up with a deal that follows the letter of the referendum result, ie withdrawal of the UK government and UK MEPs from the democratic decision making process, nothing else. My agreement would guarantee UK would follow the rules of the single market and customs union (while enjoying the benefits) until a further referendum held in the UK dictates otherwise. I would ensure that disadvantaged people in the UK continue to benefit from structural funding. I would also guarantee that UK legislation would follow or exceed expectations of EU cohension, social, international aid, environmental policies etc.I would have a no-strings re-entry agreement if at some time in the future UK decoides that it wants a say on the policies it has to follow after all. The negotiations wouldn't be about winning and losing, but what is in the best interest of UK and EU27 citizens. Unfortunately EU do not want to talk to decent intellegent people, but to self-serving idiots like May, Davis, Raab etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 11:30 AM

'If they wanted to bully the British people they would cut off food and energy supplies, and close their waters and airspace to anything heading for Britain.'

Well maybe they should. my parents lived through a time when they did just that.

You can't help thinking maybe people ought to understand that there's a price to be paid for being dependent on the good offices of your neighbours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 11:36 AM



And that was one of the main reasons the EU was formed. And we've had peace in Europe ever since, allies with our former enemies.

What was it you were saying about "I wonder why there's never any room in your minds for doubt"? Well it cuts both ways, and that's exactly what we wonder about you Brexiteers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 11:38 AM

"Well maybe they should. My parents lived through a time when they did just that"

And that was one of the main reasons the EU was formed. And we've had peace in Europe ever since, allies with our former enemies.

What was it you were saying about "I wonder why there's never any room in your minds for doubt"? Well it cuts both ways, and that's exactly what we wonder about you Brexiteers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 12:07 PM

"Well maybe they should. My parents lived through a time when they did just that"

Well, yes, but with a near 100% agreement on the enemy, and doing so to resist what an enemy was attempting to achieve. That is somewhat different to the situation where some-48% of the population think it is being inflicted on them by the other some-52% against all their best interests...


You can't help thinking maybe people ought to understand that there's a price to be paid for being dependent on the good offices of your neighbours.


And there is a price to be paid if you generate ill-will in your neighbours.   It will not make trade deals easier to arrange if the UK appears to be incoherent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 12:09 PM

I do wish some people would stop fighting Againcourt all over again
The EU is a gathering of capitalist nations working together to make the best of a dying society - no great future, but a better one than that based on the Xenophobic isolationism that is Brexit
I'm curious Al, given the likely outcome, what practical advantages do you see in leaving Europe ?
HOPE YOU WEREN'T PLANNING ANY FOREIGN GIGS
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 12:50 PM

How far the border question hurts the UK will probably depend on just how violent some Irish people choose to get if they don't like the outcome. I remember various bombings in England from my younger days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 12:54 PM

If they wanted to bully the British people they would cut off food and energy supplies, and close their waters and airspace to anything heading for Britain.
Electricity imports fromFrance and the netherlands equals 1% of UK fuel imports
Oil(entrepôt product) from Netherlands 10% mainly refined as a result of closure of Milford Haven and Coryton refineries.
Coal less than 10% from EU
Gas 7% from EU


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 01:01 PM

Food was the first item in that list.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:10 PM

So how does the gas get to the UK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:16 PM

mainly Norway and shipped from quatar and still some from the north sea


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:18 PM

Try Qatar. I should know how to spell, i have been there enough times geosteering for said gas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:51 PM

I'm not sure how forest-for-the-trees we are getting. There are certainly many many interstitial items that fall out when this frictional divorce is underway. There is no way to see how the little pieces help or hurt.

The big hurt is the forced lack of connection in a very connected world.

European Union as noted in the Wikipedia article I referenced above is on the verge of being a Superpower. This is good in an age with another verging power, China, an errant Superpower, the US, and a would be power that is a big fat troublemaker, Russia, and who knows where India's going.

The other thing I can't get out of my mind is the not-so-secret but everywhere power that was brought to the EU by English itself. How could the UK give up its continued quiet conquest of the world by its very language? I know I know that there are other languages in the UK, but the Celtic contribution and occasional dominance in the UK has been through facility in the Engllish language. The United States is probably composed of 80% of people descended from non-English speakers, Canada somewhat less, but English is one of the world glues and a powerful advantage. Taking this away from the EU is a travesty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:02 PM

"How far the border question hurts the UK will probably depend on just how violent some Irish people choose to get if they don't like the outcome"
I do wish people wouldn't do this - the problem is the unnatural and enforced border, not the Irishmen
Think the Home Bounties being partitioned off from the rest of Britain - that should give a feel of what things are about here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:12 PM

Approx 36% of energy used in the UK is imported.

Source UK Energy in Brief 2018, assetspublishingservice.gov.uk


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jos
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:45 PM

"Think the Home Bounties [I take it the 'B' another of your jokes] being partitioned off from the rest of Britain"

Where I live, the vote was more than 60% for remain - maybe we can be partitioned off and stay in the EU?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:59 PM

"...when they did just that"

"They" evidently being a word for all our fellow Europeans, to be identified with the Nazi regime in Germany.

I imagine we're going to get a lot of that if we are lumbered with a no deal exit. The people responsible will do their utmost to divert the blame for the unpleasant consequences from themselves on to those nasty foreigners.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 04:26 PM

The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957.[2] Upon the formation of the European Union (EU) in 1993, the EEC was incorporated and renamed as the European Community (EC). In 2009 the EC's institutions were absorbed into the EU's wider framework and the community ceased to exist.

The Community's initial aim was to bring about economic integration, including a common market and customs union, among its six founding members: Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and West Germany. It gained a common set of institutions along with the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Atomic Energy Community (EURATOM) as one of the European Communities under the 1965 Merger Treaty (Treaty of Brussels). In 1993, a complete single market was achieved, known as the internal market, which allowed for the free movement of goods, capital, services, and people within the EEC. In 1994, the internal market was formalised by the EEA agreement. This agreement also extended the internal market to include most of the member states of the European Free Trade Association, forming the European Economic Area covering 15 countries.

Upon the entry into force of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, the EEC was renamed the European Community to reflect that it covered a wider range than economic policy. This was also when the three European Communities, including the EC, were collectively made to constitute the first of the three pillars of the European Union, which the treaty also founded. The EC existed in this form until it was abolished by the 2009 Treaty of Lisbon, which incorporated the EC's institutions into the EU's wider framework and provided that the EU would "replace and succeed the European Community"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:15 PM

@ Iain
“To choose the one single item that could cause dissent” is what everybody should have done from the start ,Iain . if you are driving a well looking for oil and find that there is a huge block that will break all drill bits known to man , you would , as an engineer ,proceed from that knowledge surely - whatever the quantities of black gold beneath the impregnable rock ?
@ KarenH .
You think that the murderous Irish are being stubborn . You’re entitled to your prejudices , Karen ,but you should have really thought about the stubborn, savage Irish before you embarked on your stupid referendum course in 2016 . You are a Remainer and would probably think that, unlike the savage Irish , British people shouldn’t all be tarred with the same Brexit brush .But remember that David Cameron who called the referendum is also a Remainer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:36 PM

@Maymick
and your point is:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:55 PM

My point is that is was your referendum , not Ireland's but Ireland has to put up with the consequences.British nationalists can only think about what is best for Britain and not about the effect their policies have on other countries .


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:24 PM

Another terrible Question Time. Fiona Bruce gave free rein on brexit to the ghastly and garrulous Tory woman, even allowing her to make an extensive interruption after she'd told her to shut up. To add insult to injury, the camera repeatedly sought out the sneering Tory woman at every opportunity as other panellists were speaking. In contrast, Bruce gave the other panellists much less time and made frequent interruptions. Half way through the show she made an extremely mumbled ten-second "correction" to her utter balls-up in last week's programme, and it was very noticeable that she didn't even refer to Diane by name. Blink and you'd have missed it. Shameful and pathetic. The icing on the cake was the ignorant, baying audience, though, as ever, there were occasional diamonds embedded in the crock of shite. A terrible advert for democracy. I reckon it's time for a radical rethink on this show. I'd like to see a far smaller audience for a start. In other words, Grr. And thank God I had Highland Park to hand. End of rant due to gradual mellowing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:35 PM

Steve the result was in part the work of Murdoch , yet you persist in financing him through sky box just tp watch football at least jim watches shakespeare, what do you expect


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:40 PM

I expect that I'll be ignoring you until you turn the bloody record over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:46 PM

I've never had a Sky Box by the way, and don't know what one is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:56 PM

i think Jim, the main advantage. I would see is environmental. Particularly the marine environment. We are after all an island.

We need a planned approach to the seas around us. I just don't think the continued fishing by factory ships and even the big English fishing boats is sustainable.

Similarly I think we need to take charge of the wealth in the country, and subsidise the building of modern factories.

The EU law wouldn't allow the land grab this would involve. Then they wouldn't allow the subsidies.

I'm an old style socialist. I believe in a planned economy. Preferably planned by the English government. We need to get into government - unconstrained by Brussels,

In answer to Backwoodsman's point. Yes of course I have doubts. But I honestly believe we're in trouble if we don't change direction. The Blair government was heartbreaking for guys like me. After 18 years of tory intransigence and double-dealing. If we had reorganised then, we wouldn't be in this mess. Held to ransom by a tiny enclave in a highly unpopular government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:14 PM

As I've said God knows how many times, Al, the amount we pay into the EU is around one percent of our GDP. We get some of that back in farm subsidies and regional development grants (Cornwall, where I live, has had half a billion). True, we are net contributors. Our money goes into stabilising countries with weaker economies, helping to maintain their democracy. One percent of our GDP, to help maintain peace and stability in what has been a volatile continent since the dawn of time. But you gib at that? Al, did you actually KNOW how little of our money is tied up with the EU, you know, the stuff you agitate to "take back control" of? Did you actually know that when you voted leave or did you believe all the "take back control" claptrap? Tell you what, Al. Once we leave we'll be under the control of massive trading blocs who are in no hurry to give us any deals (not a single one so far, despite Liam Fox promising us forty by now). Enjoy your new-found non-freedoms and your new-found non-opportunities!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:37 PM

its not the point, Steve. The point is that after the war, we decided we wanted full employment.,,after alll the shit people went through in rhe 1930's.

Our industries weren't the most efficient in the world, but by subsidising them - we avoided having beggars on the street, a hard drugs problem, and all the other social ills that are commonplace in tough capitalist economies like the US.

The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.

Thatcher joyfully pounced on the this and used it to close down manufacturing industry in this country. Thus wresting political power from the Trade Unions.

THe EEC was an integral part of Thatchers plans, despite apparently badmouthing it.

In Sutton in Ashfield, Notts. They have lost mining, mining equipment manufacture, textiles,   ceramics. The Eu has compensated them with an ornamental sundial. Go figure....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:57 PM

The EU was not responsible for those losses and you know it, Al.

Thing is, Al, we have been sold a big lie about the EU ever since the time of Wedgie Benn and Michael Foot (both blokes I admired in most other regards), not to speak of a litany of Tory eurosceptics. People like them ensured via their oft-misleading propaganda that we believed Europe was under the undemocratic control of Brussels bureaucrats, which was never even remotely true. All EU decisions, whether or not suggested by the Commission, are either agreed to by common consensus among 28 sovereign nations, put to the vote in the European Parliament, or vetoed. And of course the EU is protectionist. Tell me one major trading bloc that isn't. Yet you're happy for us to ditch the sort-of-protectionist EU in favour of the uber-protectionist US and China. I mean, wassup, Al!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:09 PM

A lot of people in the UK seem to be still fighting the last two world wars , only with the EU taking the place of Germany .As with Big Al’s post above :
“The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:47 PM

Well I suppose that's a better way of fighting a world war than the previous two. I've been to several EU countries for my hols and I love them. I find people there with the same hopes, aspirations, McDonalds and M&S as we have in the UK. I don't see dark animosity or plots to get us or desires to screw the UK. I feel quite European, actually. I want to go there as often as I can, as I love their summer warmth, their lovely grub, their friendly people and especially their gelati, and I want them to come here if they want. I've never been called up to fight Europeans, neither has my son. That's cracking good stuff is that. I'm off to bed now. Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:25 AM

if you do not knowwhat a sky box is ask Jim, in the meantime you are still supporting rupert murdoch , which is imo hypocritical, you gave the impression in an earlier post that you paid for sky television just to watch a soccer match , bloddy pathetic


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:29 AM

No , I don't know it.

Of course I have doubts when virtually every MP with an IQ above room temperature disagrees with me.

But I don't really see anyone actually countering my arguments. They just abuse them and me. And I remember the ten solid miles of steel factories outside Sheffield, I used to drive past on the way to gigs. And all the textile factories, where my father in law worked as a knitter and trimmer, round where I lived - making excellent goods like Viyella Shirts, and the skills that have been lost. And I see marks and Spencer shutting down stores everywhere cos they can't sell the cheap[ foreign made goods on their shelves at High Street prices. They offer Cotton Trader products at High Street prices.

And I think we've got it wrong and membership of the EU is part of the problem.

And I don't think we'll set it right til we're quit of them, and our MP's are answerable to US and not Brussels appointees, who keep our representatives of every party waiting and buggering about. And that is my sincere belief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:00 AM

"i think Jim, the main advantage. I would see is environmental. Particularly the marine environment. We are after all an island."
So a Britain tied to Ecological vandal Trump is more likly to save the planet than being part of a group that is, at least, paying lip-service to co-operation and control - give us a break Al
We USED to be an island 0 one that controlled a large proportion of the world, but now we are totally reliant on others - we have no industries to speak of and no plans to develop any so on the one hand, we rely on cheaply produced goods manufactured in apalling conditions, from textiles to computers, while at the same time building walls to keep the people who make the goods we buy out
We fished the oceans empty before the days of Sam Larner so there is no chance of reviving our fishing industry, so instead of staying within a group where there is a chance of making the best of what's left cast ourselves adrift - crazy argument
Britain is totally incapable of "going it alone" for al the flag-wagging - it doesn't even have a united people or a Government capable of holding a whist drive, never mind leading a country
That is the referendum's legacy, and it hasn't even begun to bite yet
Jim   
If


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:06 AM

TRY THIS FOR SIZE AL
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:10 AM

"Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning..."
Probably same as me - because the pubs are closed (:-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:39 AM

Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning
I read it when I woke at about 5:50am. We nearly have 24h coverage of the thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:45 AM

You don't need a Sky box to watch Sky, Dick.

Do you use petro chemicals? Eat food? Wear clothes? Each one of those industries is culpable in any number of human rights abuses yet you witter on about someone watching football on Sky. I know where the epithets pathetic and hypocritical should really be applied.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:53 AM

of course we can revive our seas. We must.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:24 PM
Another terrible Question Time. Shameful and pathetic. The icing on the cake was the ignorant, baying audience.

Freedom of Information request – RF20101013

"I would like to be supplied with the selection criteria the BBC use when it comes to deciding who to
select from among the many applicants to participate in the 'Question Time' audience."
Please note that your request is outside the scope of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (“ the Act”) but we are happy to explain that the programme ensures that there is due balance between the main political parties, as well as minor parties and unaligned voters in the audience.
We hope you find this helpful.

Did you actually know that when you voted leave or did you believe all the "take back control" claptrap?
Sovereignty is the word you mean!
Note:
control: the power to influence or direct people's behaviour or the course of events.
sovereignty: supreme power or authority. "the sovereignty of Parliament"
    synonyms:        jurisdiction, supremacy, dominion, power, ascendancy, suzerainty, tyranny, hegemony, domination, sway, predominance, authority, control, influence, rule, freedom

It should not be necessary to point out these vital distinctions! It was to escape external control and a re-assert sovereignty that the referendum was predicated upon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:12 AM

I'm not saying that your article is wrong about the way things are. I'm saying -its not the way it should be. We need to rip up everything that's gone before and get marine biologists to work out a way forward that is sustainable and good for the future.

We owe it to future generations to make our seas healthy. I won't say again - past generations didn't really have the global vision that is so natural to us now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:18 AM

The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.
Thatcher joyfully pounced on the this and used it to close down manufacturing industry in this country. Thus wresting political power from the Trade Unions.THe EEC was an integral part of Thatchers plans, despite apparently badmouthing it.


Sounds good but the statistics simply do not support your view.
Coalmining
Textiles
Aircraft manufacture
heavy industry
All were in serious decline long before marvelous Maggie even started secondary school.

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2013/01/meeting-our-makers-britain%E2%80%99s-long-industrial-decline

This has been pointed out numerous times on this forum and the evidence is overwhelming and conclusive!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:51 AM

"of course we can revive our seas. We must."
Don't you think it strange that, despite the fact that Britain's fishing indistrt==y has been in steady decline for decades yet no Government, inside or out of Europe, has lifted a finger to help it ?
It has only surfaced now as an academic political ploy
The most likely scenario on the table now is that Britain will sacrifice the fishing rights to Europe in a deal benefiting other aspects of the economy
Britain's fishing will still remain in the hands of Europe, the only difference being that we will no longer have a say in it
Even if Britain crashes out of Europe, fishing will be way down the list of priorities, allowing the industry just to fade away completely
Crazy Al, crazy
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM

"Sounds good but the statistics simply do not support your view.

Coalmining
Textiles
Aircraft manufacture
heavy industry
All were in serious decline long before marvelous Maggie even started secondary school."


https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2013/01/meeting-our-makers-britain%E2%80%99s-long-industrial-decline

This has been pointed out numerous times on this forum and the evidence is overwhelming and conclusive!"


Could you explain all that to Big Al please, Iains? He seems to be under the mistaken impression they were destroyed by the EU, despite repeated explanations to the contrary by those of us whose memories are still in full working condition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:27 AM

"The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries."

The other way of putting that, Al, is that other countries used the flexibility built into the rules more intelligently than the UK, in such a way as to avoid unnecessary damage to their industries. The EU doesn’t have "their own industries". EU members do. And they didn't choose to elect a Margaret Thatcher and give her a licence to kill.

Blaming other people for our own cock-ups is very much the flavour of the times it seems. The same is done in the case of freedom of movement as interpreted by the UK government in a way that exploits both immigrants and natives in the interest of predatory employers.

And a pedantic point. "We are after all an island". No we aren't. England is not an island, nor is the UK. Great Britain is an island, but it has never been a country except between 1703 and 1801.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM

""The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries."
A strange indication that Britain has never regarded herself as part of Europe
Protectionism of their own industries surely includes British industries, which was what we agreed to when we signed up
When/if we leave, that "protectionism" will remain and be to the disadvantage of Britain - all Britain will do is remove its right to have a say in it (as with the fishing industry)
Crazier and crazier
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM

Backwoodsman. The legacy of Thatcher was that she recognised the decline of UK industry and introduced de regulation and encouraged globalism as a counter.

How much of her policies led to pluses and minuses in society can be argued for ever. These changes impacted the entire world and the jack will not go back in the box.

https://www.dw.com/en/the-reagan-thatcher-revolution/a-16732731

https://www.ft.com/content/8f41da48-a05f-11e2-a6e1-00144feabdc0

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2013/apr/16/margaret-thatcher-impact-legacy-development

The real problem, well demonstrated by the referendum, is that there is a basic dichotomy between globalisation of trade by ever growing multinationals and retention of national identity and sovereignty. The overarching reality of the EU becoming a political union does nothing to combat the ever growing power of multinationals. Power is owned by the money- the voice of the individual citizen is being shrunken and sidestepped by the day. This is well demonstrated by our present crop of mps. 500 voted for article 50. Who paid them to change their minds?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:52 AM

"Power is owned by the money- the voice of the individual citizen is being shrunken and sidestepped by the day."

I completely agree. Yet you Brexshiteers voted to remove the checks, balances and controls of the EU over the behaviour of the tiny, immensely wealthy, powerful cadre who, in order to further their own interests and increase their wealth and power, have driven the BrexShit process from the dark shadows, and to hand absolute power to them, no matter what damage it causes to the lives of the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:57 AM

The regulations killed our industries. Thatcher used them to take political power from the trades unions.

Saying that the regulations weren't to blame is a bit like the 'guns don't kill people ' shit. We all know if the guns aren't available people don't get killed in quite so many numbers. or maybe you disagree with that.

I saw it happen. I saw it was going to happen. I watched it happen as predicted.

You don't have to agree with me. You're free to tell me I'm an asshole for thinking as I do. many do.

But I 'm not going to take sides with the iceberg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:10 AM

Other countries didn't exploit the regulations self destructively. A better analogy than guns here is cars. Cars driven sensibly are useful. There are some people who shouldn’t be allowed behind a wheel. Margaret Thatcher was someone who shouldn't have been trusted in charge of a country, and you can't blame the EU for that.
................


Here is an entertaining spin on the Brexit debacle


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:22 AM

Dunno if that was for me, Al, or someone else? All I'll say is that you know my views on The Beast of Grantham very well, I've made them very plain on many occasions - she was the worst thing that's ever happened to this country in peacetime.

The point I was making in my comment to Iains 25 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM, was that, despite being told that British industry, fishing, etc. was buggered before we joined the Common Market (i.e. 'long before marvellous Maggie even started secondary school'), you continue to blame the EU for their demise.

I simply hoped that hearing it from a fellow Brexshitter, you might start to believe it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:27 AM

Big Al the world was changing prior to Thatcher. If you study the aircraft industry it was a world leader immediately postwar and into the fifties. Both political parties destroyed the aircraft industry ably assisted by management of the numerous aircraft companies. The reluctance to modernise and integrate was not restricted to the aircraft industry. The unions are a separate issue- governments rule countries not unions,( or cadres trying to redefine british democracy, as now). Thatcher created big bang and as a result the service sector exploded while traditional industries declined due to poor management, union activists, lack of investment and more importantly global competition. How you wish to explain it depends on perspective. The textile industry grew on the colonial market, now many of those markets manufacture and export. They also have the competitive advantage.
The industrial revolution started in the UK but on down the line others learn from our mistakes and did not have obsolescence to deal with. America also soon caught up and overtook the UK in innovation. The US industry for small arms was the first to perfect mass production techniques.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM

"The regulations killed our industries. "
Utter nonsense - I left Liverpool in the 1960 when the containerisation wiped out Liverpool as a port - that was echoed throughout Britain
Thatcher administered the coup-de-grace on to a coal industry that was dead on its feet from under-investment, her motive, to smash the unions, the steel industry died from lack of investment and the textile industry started to decline inn 1952 when Britain allowed foreign firms to flood the market with cheaply produced goods, competition from Japan and South Korea wiped out the British Shipbuilding industry   
We in the North of England watched this happen before our eyes because we were the worst effected
Where did "regulations" come into any of this - most of it was deliberate because it was more profitable to buy foreign
You seem to be floundering around to find reasons to blame Europe
I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so
https://www.ippr.org/blog/if-you-think-brexit-is-going-to-be-bad-for-the-economy-just-wait-until-you-see-what-s-in-store-for-us-in-2020
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:33 AM

Just watched a number of interviews with Irish politicians of various parties - none of which I support
All have pointed out masterfully that the Border is Briain's chosen problem and it is Britain's job to sort it outinstead of constantly blaming the Irish for not co-operating
I think that goes for the few here who refuse to recognise the seriousness of Ireland's problem
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:47 AM

You are interacting with him again lads. I can assure you he is just lulling you into a false sense of security.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:07 AM

I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

That's easy: it will be the fault of May and remainers for standing in the way of a proper Brexit, talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:16 AM

I would masterfully point out that Ireland will be directly impacted by brexit. I would also point out thatIntransigence is not a clever negotiating tactic.

I left Liverpool in the 1960 when the containerisation wiped out Liverpool as a port - that was echoed throughout Britain

This is called progress.

the steel industry died from lack of investment and the textile industry started to decline inn 1952 when Britain allowed foreign firms to flood the market with cheaply produced goods, competition from Japan and South Korea wiped out the British Shipbuilding industry

Production goes to the least cost base. Making uncompetitive widgets just creates unemployment and bankruptcies.

Thatcher administered the coup-de-grace on to a coal industry that was dead on its feet from under-investment,

Utter rubbish as you have been told repeatedly on this forum and given the supporting statistics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:23 AM

"I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

That's easy: it will be the fault of May and remainers for standing in the way of a proper Brexit, talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."


Errrmm....you mean Jeremy Corbyn, surely? ;-)

May's already trying to blame him for the entire debacle, I'm sure the Brexshiteers will be happy to follow her lead...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:39 AM

" talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."
Is this irony ?
I sometimes have a problem distinguishing with some posters some serious ones can be really off-the-wall at times
Maybe the Brexiteers have plans to start up a widget industry - wonderful to see the patriots describing Britain's industrial pride in such patriotic terms - (sorry Dave, we would be neglecting in our duty to let that gem of national pride go un-commented on)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:42 AM

I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

Main thing is, they'll blame it all on those nasty foreigners who've ganged up against the UK. And of course Remainers who stopped us having a proper Brexitty deal. Always someone else's fault.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 10:17 AM

" talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."
Is this irony ?
I sometimes have a problem distinguishing with some posters some serious ones can be really off-the-wall at times


I won't get into whether it is ironic or not because that is a really complicated subject. But what I meant was that whatever sort of Brexit we end up with any problems will be blamed on the fact is was not done in line with the purists and so it will be, as McGrath said, someone else's fault. It will never be seen as a problem inherent in Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:00 AM

"was not done in line with the purists"
This disingenuous nonsense needs to be faced head on
The decision, my a minority of the British people, was agreed with no qualified set of promises - there is still no coherent map of where Britain will go when/if they leave
All this should have been laid before the British people before the vote was taken - instead they were given a magical mystery tour to vote on based largely on controlling the input of foreigners
If the people's opinion meant anything more than a fart in a hurricane to these no-marks, those who did would be given a chance to confirm that their decision remains the same and those who didn't should be allowed to vote on theirs and their childrens' future with the fuller facts at their disposal.
Democracy has only meant anything to them indoors when it can be manipulated to serve the haves and, at the same time, give the impression of being the peoples' will
It's at times like this that I thank the god I don't believe in for proportional representation, which, while not being fuly democrating, at leastt manages to keep some of the sharks at bay
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:10 AM

Irish troops threatened to the Irish border.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46998533

or according to Guido it is fast becoming a Brian Rix farce



https://order-order.com/2019/01/25/now-varadkar-threatens-put-troops-irish-border/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM

I don't think you are getting my point, Jim, but accept it might be because I am not being clear enough. I do not believe in a One True Brexit, but there are those who do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM

Maybe the Brexiteers have plans to start up a widget industry.

Only if the business model indicates success. Otherwise it would be rather silly!

It is only the loony left that thinks finance falls like manna from heaven, off a magical money tree. That is why each time in power their economic policy creates an industrial wasteland of catastrophic proportions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:20 AM

You are interacting with him again lads. I can assure you he is just lulling you into a false sense of security.

Hmm! A gnome, a troll, or a vexatious little goblin?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:55 AM

"but accept it might be because I am not being clear enough"
I think I do - I was trying to establish whether you were being ironic, which seems to eb the case
My posting wasn't aimed at what you said, which was clear enough - it was my summing up of what I believe needs to be established clearly

Does someone have the emergency number for Rainhill? (understandable only to Liverpudlians over a certain age)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 01:11 PM

I don't like to say I told you so but...

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:04 PM

There is no dispute, it is a spiteful little goblin trying to get the thread closed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:08 PM

he embattled People’s Vote campaign are dismayed that Jeremy Corbyn won’t get off the fence and back their second referendum campaign. It’s funny how they’re now begging for his help when they’ve been some of his harshest critics for years:
What a joke!

    Tony Blair in 2016 said Jeremy Corbyn in power would be a “very dangerous experiment”.
    Peter Mandelson in 2017 said “I work every single day in some small way to bring forward the end of his tenure in office. Something, however small it may be – an email, a phone call or a meeting I convene – every day I try to do something to save the Labour party from his leadership.”
    Alastair Campbell in 2015 called on Labour members to vote for “anyone but Corbyn” and said that his election as leader would show that Labour had “given up on being a serious party of government”.
    Chuka Umunna in 2015 said that Corbyn and his “nasty trolls” should be disqualified from office because of their pacifist views.
    Sadiq Khan in 2016 wrote that Labour “cannot win with Corbyn” and said that Corbyn had “proved that he is unable to organise an effective team, and has failed to win the trust and respect of the British people”.
    Tom Baldwin, the People’s Vote’s Director of Communications, wrote in 2016 that “people at every level of our party recognised a responsibility to bring Jeremy Corbyn’s experimental retro-70s leadership to a swift end” and tweeted that “getting rid of Corbyn would be a step in the right direction”.
    Anna Soubry just last week called Corbyn the “most hopeless opposition leader we’ve ever had” .
    Mike Gapes also directly attacked Corbyn just last week, saying “Apparently Corbyn is prepared to hold talks with Hamas, Hezbollah, Assad and Iran without preconditions. But not with the UK Prime Minister. Why?”
    Chris Leslie in 2015 accused Corbyn of “plucking figures out of the air” and said that his policies would hit the poor the hardest as well as keeping Labour out of power for a decade.
    Sarah Wollaston in 2016 said “Whatever your political views, we all benefit from a competent official opposition; that cannot happen under Corbyn”.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM

I think you are spot on about the folly of interacting in this case, Dave. Some people seem to find it irresistible. Very hard to understand that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM

I think you are spot on about the folly of interacting in this case, Dave. Some people seem to find it irresistible. Very hard to understand that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:27 PM

"I don't like to say I told you so but..."
Don't lie - yes you do, we all do
We wouldn't me human if we didn't
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:36 PM

You are both right :-)

Back to brexit now.

Philip Hammond has now said that "leaving without a deal would cause 'severe damage' to the UK economy".

Common sense from Tory. Wonders will never cease.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:46 PM

...All we need to happen now is for May to listen to her chancellor and take no deal off the table. Corbyn will then add some real sense and we can move the whole shambles into a firmer footing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:35 PM

I have a cunning plan... :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:38 PM

On the subject of our Troll, if he's posting sensibly and civilly I have no problem interacting with him. Unfortunately, his psychiatric disorder means that he seldom keeps it up for long. Then it's time to ignore him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:55 PM

No point, John. You know what is coming so just ignore him full stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:00 PM

I suspect a quite word has been said in his earhole ......

Back to Brexit.

The UK government has been training people to prepare for a disorderly exit from the UK.

A sign of things to come.

Could someone please link to the article in todays Guardian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:02 PM

You have a point Dave. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:29 PM

I strongly suspect that most people in the rest of the EU are crossing their fingers against the possibility that the UK might change its mind and stay in. That's among those who are particularly interested in the whole thing. A silent majority - rather similar to what was revealed in a study that found that a large majority of Tories would be happy to see the back of Scotland and Northern Ireland if that would mean that Brexit went ahead. So much for Theresa May's "our precious union".

Large majorities of English Tory voters would be willing to support Scottish independence (79 percent) or even the undoing of the Northern Ireland peace process (75 percent) as “worth it” to “take back control” from the European Union, new research from the Universities of Edinburgh and Cardiff has suggested.
Reuter’s, October 2018.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:19 PM

This has certainly affected the US economy. It is probably relating to some of the comments that are focused on current economic plights.

Worldwide population is inexorably growing, thus increasing the availability of labor, esp. cheap and very cheap labor.
Technology has enabled the reliable movement of capital.

The above two points have led to what is called globalism.
Uncontrolled it leads to rapid impoverishment of once stable working classes.
With regulation and some discomfort, it can lead to the changes in manufacturing and service industries that most of us have been witness to.
With controls and tariffs and embargoes, many of the inevitable changes can be held off for a time providing false sense of security and temporary job pseudo-stability.

The development of the EU, and such agreements in the West and Asia as NAFTA and the TPP were attempts to acknowledge the inevitable changes to the world economy while minimizing (the over-used fancy work is 'mitigating') the pain of displacement and redundancy. Obama was onto this, but unfortunately Trump made a successful appeal to fear and ignorance. I think the BREXIT affair was parallel only that Europe had its own issues (the bureaucratic rule out of Brussels and the population displacement out of Turkey, Arabia and Africa. What the anti EU and anti-Obama movements had in common was fear (a lot of it understandable) and a certain amount of racism (not accusing everyone of racism, just saying that it doesn't take much to make a difference).

Bottom line: These changes are going to come regardless, and those who can manage to align for them will experience the least pain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 02:25 AM

Good summary, Robomatic.

Of course both Trump supporters and EU leavers will deny any element of fear, ignorance or racism and I don't believe for one minute that either group have a majority of people displaying those attributes. But, as you say, it doesn't take many to make a difference.

I have just finished re-reading "The Truth" by Terry Pratchett. One of the lines that was resonant with me then is even more so now.

A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:05 AM

"Then it's time to ignore him."
It has become clear to me that if he kicks off again, as he appears to be now doing, the Mods will have no alliterative Then it's time to ignore him.but to take action against him
Any reacting to or against his indefensible behaviour can only prolong his trolling - as I have been told constantly by a mod "stop feeding the troll- makes sense to me
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:12 AM

Spell corrector went haywire there
It has become clear to me that if he kicks off again, as he appears to be doing the mods will have no alternative but to do something take action against him

Faulty posting should keep hi busy for a while
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:50 AM

"resonant with me then" should have read "resonant with me first time round".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 11:36 AM

So it looks like the most likely amendment to pass on Tuesday is a Tory one to go back and renegotiate the backstop. Meanwhile the EU is clear the price of reopening the backstop discussions is a permanent customs union. Which of course the reason the Leavers want the backstop changed.

Place your bets now whether Parliament will vote to demand rejection of the backstop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 11:56 AM

It's the only way to demonstrate who are, and who are not, the 'bastards' (as the Mods so charmingly describe those who challenge bigotry and provocation) on here.

https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=161452
seems very clear to me who the b******s are. It is the usual suspects!

Perhaps a kind forum fairy would close this thread as it now merely seems to consist of repeated personal attacks by the "usual"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 12:20 PM

One persistent assertion of the "no deal" Brexiteers is that leaving with no deal would mean £39 billion to play with that they wouldn't have to give to those nasty foreigners. What they ignore is that that £39 billion is not a fine for leaving, it is payment in respect of debts incurred by the EU - a version of those debts which has if anything been pared down to assist the UK in these difficult times.

Failing to pay would be a matter of the UK defaulting on its debts, which is not a very good basis for winning the trust of any tother countries in conducting any kind of business or negotiation. The term used in such cases is "pariah state". Or to use a term with historical basis in the case of this country "Albion perfide".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 12:43 PM

I doubt that many leavers would understand that, Kevin. In a recent survey, linked above, 26% of people thought that no deal meant we would be staying in the EU.

Maybe I am lucky in that I studied British constitution and government, and Economics at college but I thought that more people used to understand what was actually going on in politics than this. I guess the Tory cuts to education have done the job they were designed to do. An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 01:13 PM

Northern Ireland demonstrators out in force today demanding there should be no hard border
Perhaps the problems that Ireland, both sides of the border, will eventually filter down to those who claim it's the Irish and Europe who are being intransigent - it's the UKwho have thrown their toys out of the pram and now they are demanding that everybody else has to pick them up

Leo Varadkar got himself into hot water yesterday by suggesting the possibility of troops returning to te North _ I have no tim for the man and his policies, but I really can't see much wrong with what he said - there is a distinct possibility that, if things continue the way they are going British troops will have to return to keep order
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 01:16 PM

An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :

That argument applies equally to both sides,therefore the effect is self cancelling. Many of those subject to Tory education cuts are still below voting age, whereas those whose education was destroyed by Labout education cuts are fully enfranchised.
Was it not the Labour MP AnthonyCrossland said "If it's the last thing I do, I'm going to destroy every fucking grammar school in England. And Wales. And Northern Ireland."    Crosland is so quoted by his wife Susan Crosland in her biography. Hewent toa fee paying school
and from the Gruniard:
" Labour MP Diane Abbott made a second attempt to defend her decision to send her son to a fee-paying school, after she was attacked by her neighbouring MP in East London. ... Since then she has admitted her decision was "indefensible" but attacked the state of the education system"
A familiar pattern of labour elitism emerging here I fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 01:26 PM

I have no tim for the man and his policies, but I really can't see much wrong with what he said

That will put you in a very small minority then!

The Taoiseach has come under fire for “inflaming tensions” with “reckless and irresponsible” warnings of a return to soldiers and checkpoints along the border if there is a no-deal Brexit.


https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/taoiseachunder-fire-for-border-soldiers-warning-900216.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 02:41 PM

https://www.thejournal.ie/violence-north-brexit-4452334-Jan2019/
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 02:55 PM

An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :

That argument applies equally to both sides, therefore the effect is self cancelling.


I am afraid not: that assumes for example that the voting patterns of those with higher formal qualifications and without was the same, for example, which we know it wasn't. Also, it would not be self cancelling if those wanting outcome A were more prepared to manipulate - or more effective - than those wanting outcome B: even if the electorate were equally manipulatable the effect would not cancel out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:00 PM

From the same article:
Over 1,000 adults were asked by Amarách Research for Claire Byrne Live yesterday, and 65% of people said they were fearful, while 24% said they weren’t.

It comes after a number of security alerts in Derry city in recent days, with the most recent last night involving a van reported abandoned outside a girls’ secondary school.

A number of incidents yesterday followed the explosion of a car bomb from outside a courthouse on Bishop Street in the city on Saturday night.

A comment below the article:
"Personally i think that the bomb attack at the weekend wasn`t to do with Brexit, but had more to do with the anniversary of 100 years ago and the first shots fired at Soloheadbeg, The bombing was exactly 100 years to the day of that anniversary which were claimed to be the first shots fired in Ireland`s civil war, it seems like this “New IRA” were trying to make a statement of some sort"

The official view of the UK government:
The attack that happened on Saturday night is the result of a threat level that has been in place before the Brexit vote, these are plots and activities that these people have been working on and trying to carry out for many, many years.

This rather confirms the statement:
The Taoiseach has come under fire for “inflaming tensions” with “reckless and irresponsible” warnings......".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 04:46 PM

From yougov:
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.

Age is the other great fault line. Under-25s were more than twice as likely to vote Remain (71%) than Leave (29%). Among over-65s the picture is almost the exact opposite, as 64% of over-65s voted to Leave while only 36% voted to Remain. Among the other age groups, voters aged 24 to 49 narrowly opted for Remain (54%) over leave (46%) while 60% of voters between the ages of 50 and 64 went for Leave.

70%/68% Dramatic? dont fink so!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 05:33 PM

On the other hand:

But Peter Kellner, the former president of the YouGov polling firm, said Sheerman was factually correct.
“I would not use Barry Sheerman’s choice of words but the facts are broadly on his side,” Kellner told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Monday.
“Overall, people who left school at 15 or 16 voted around two to one for Brexit. [For] people who got up to A-level or equivalent qualification [it was] 50:50. Graduates voted two to one to remain in the EU.
“So yes, there is quite a clear educational gradient in the way people voted in last year’s referendum.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 08:04 PM

So, DMcG, is that an argument for "a second referendum," or is it a rock-solid argument for not having referendums at all? By extension, is it an argument that the 2016 referendum was illegitimate?

You probably know what I think!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 02:20 AM

No, I don't think it is an argument for a second referendum. Or indeed against one. The factors that argue against a second referendum are those listed earlier. The only argument in favour of a second referendum I am aware of is that it may be a way of resolving some of the issues. To me, it is like Russian Roulette. Yes, if you play you may end up blowing you head off. So it only becomes sensible to play it when that is a lower risk than not playing.

I should perhaps say it wasn't the role of the education that I was really responding to, but the wider logical fallacy that if a characteristic is shared by the whole population it 'cancels out'. It can do, of course, but it is how the characteristic interacts with other factors that determines whether it does or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 03:47 AM

"it may be a way of resolving some of the issues."
Considering what some of those issues are, that would be enough for me
Don't you think that, now that we have a clearer view of what leaving Europe means, none of which was available able at the time of the first vote, the people are entitled to a chance to confirm that this is how they see the future of Britain ?
Brexit was sold as a pig-in-a-poke, largely on promises that could not be honoured
It seems to me the only democratic thing to do is to vot again
Britain can hardly become more divided that it is at present, unless you consider Civil War a possibility
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 03:47 AM

"it may be a way of resolving some of the issues."
Considering what some of those issues are, that would be enough for me
Don't you think that, now that we have a clearer view of what leaving Europe means, none of which was available able at the time of the first vote, the people are entitled to a chance to confirm that this is how they see the future of Britain ?
Brexit was sold as a pig-in-a-poke, largely on promises that could not be honoured
It seems to me the only democratic thing to do is to vot again
Britain can hardly become more divided that it is at present, unless you consider Civil War a possibility
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM

Brexit was sold as a pig-in-a-poke, largely on promises that (WOULD) could not be honoured
Aaah yes! The promise to honour the result ofthe referendum that looks increasingly like it will not be honoured by our treacherous mps.

More fine antics of labour's MPs corbyn and abbott:

Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott 'wreck' law to protect child abuse victims over fears a new data sharing treaty with the US could be used to sentence a criminal to death.

As a commentator said:
"Whatever is wrong with Corbyn and Abbott? They are a total disgrace to democracy and justice. Protection of children should be our most important priority as human beings."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM

I should perhaps say it wasn't the role of the education that I was really responding to, but the wider logical fallacy that if a characteristic is shared by the whole population it 'cancels out'. It can do, of course, but it is how the characteristic interacts with other factors that determines whether it does or not.
I am afraid that seems a load of sociology waffle to me. If pointy heads cannot even predict the voting preferences of an electorate then taking any notice of their pontifications as to why they voted is a reckless pastime and could lead to all sorts of erroneous conclusions.

In the US I believe a sociology degree is generally a BA. Hardly a hard science, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:13 AM

I am going to personalise it this time. Just over two month, and the useless garbage in government still have not guaranteed freedom of movement for UK nationals, or full benefit of the customs union and single market. I challenge the brexshitters here to tell me to my face why they feel they personally feel that I should not be entitled to this. The sniveling cowards will say 'because that is what the people voted for, not some crap like that'. I want to kn ow why they personally voted to **** up my rights as a European citizen. Is ****ing up peoples lives just a big joke to you all?

?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:30 AM

I am afraid that seems a load of sociology waffle to me.

Fair enough, they are more important things to discuss. But for the record it is formal logic and to do with independence of variables, not sociology.


As for SPB's question - I have my hypotheses why that happens, but being on the Remainer side of the fence, it is for others to answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:34 AM

MSN reporting martial law being considered

Exaggeration or not, this is how the situation is being reported.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:37 AM

One of the many lies told and promises broken, SPB, was that it would be easy to negotiate the things you want. I think that those who voted to leave genuinely believed it would be. I would not blame them but rather put the blame on the shower of shits who blatantly lied, made promises they could not keep and then blamed it on everyone but themselves. In order

Nigel Garage
Boris Johnson
Michael Gove

David Cameron must be included because he should have known better and Jacob Rees-Mogg just for being a twat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:41 AM

Farage rather than garage of course. Before the people with only enough wit to use spelling mistakes as arguments jump on me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:48 AM

They simply didn't know what they were voting for. They thought they were voting to kick Johnny Foreigner up the backside and stop him from coming here. They swallowed the hallowed lie that laws are forced on us by unelected Brussels bureaucrats. They didn't take your interests or mine or the good citizens of the EU into consideration. They didn't realise the mortal threat to peace in Northern Ireland. They didn't realise that we would relinquish a powerful controlling hand on future EU policy and that bad things are now going to happen in consequence. They haven't a clue as to what "sovereignty" means, or that we are now going to lose "control" of a damn sight more money than ever got tied up with the EU. They forgot that "control of our borders" can only work one way and that we are now going to struggle to run our NHS and our care system, as if they aren't in enough Tory trouble already. They talk bullshit about "opportunities" and believed the vacuous promises that countries were going to fall over themselves to sign trade deals with us. We were promised forty by now, but we have yet to sign a single one. In their brainless hubris they thought they knew better along with their mates down the boozer than the people who are paid full-time to know better. They think that their cross on the ballot meant this, that and the other, when it was just a cross, not even an English word. The people who voted leave were either gullible, racists or gullible racists. And look where they've got us.

If you can, tune into Point Of View on Radio 4 on the iPlayer. Listen to Val McDermid's clear-headed exposition of why referendums are such a bloody stupid idea and how they can, and will, undermine and ultimately wreck democracy.

One day I'll tell you what I really think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:56 AM

Theresa may has been blocking reform of Northern Ireland's stringent pregnancy termination laws in order to keep Sectarian DUP on her side
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:38 AM

Then again she might not. Is that project fear? or another "once upon a time" story?m


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:43 AM

They haven't a clue as to what "sovereignty" means,.....

and their parents and grandparents did not know what sovereignty was during WW2 either I suppose.

You post some quite irrational material at times. No wonder you do not supply links. You would never find anyone to support you, other than the rabid left.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:49 AM

That is noticeably not an answer to Son's question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:51 AM

SPB's question. Damn autocorrect again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:02 AM

"Listen to Val McDermid's "
Saw an interview on Irish tele - amazing in-your - face lady (and a magnificent thriller writer)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:12 AM

ust over two month, and the useless garbage in government still have not guaranteed freedom of movement for UK nationals, or full benefit of the customs union and single market.

not going to personalize it ??????

You will still have freedom of movement. You may need a visa but not always.
As of 9 October 2018, British citizens had visa-free or visa on arrival access to 186 countries and territories, ranking the British passport 5th in terms of travel freedom (tied with Austrian, Dutch, Luxembourg, Irish, Norwegian, Portuguese and the United States passports) according to the Henley Passport Index. Visa free travel abroad is not uniform throughout the EU for it's citizens, it is dictated by each individual country,
Having a career mainly overseas for 45 years(not within the EU) freedom of travel was not a problem.

Leaving the EU meant leaving. That means leaving the EU customs union.
It is not like retrieving a piece of chewing gum from under the desk where remnants still adhere with tenuous links to the withdrawing entity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:22 AM

Whilst in the EU we abide by laws and regulations (a small minority of the ones that govern us, actually, as we are free to draw up all our domestic laws) that we have helped in a big way to draw up and which we overwhelming agree with. Most EU law is agreed to by common consent, without dispute. When we leave the EU and are obliged to make deals with the likes of the US and China (both of whom can manage quite well without good deals with us), we will have no say over regulations. And as a small nation we will be far more under the thumb of mega-corporations than we are now, under the umbrella as we are of almost half a billion people. So much for the much-vaunted "sovereignty," the subject of one of the leave campaign's most bogus arguments. Along with the let's-keep-foreigners-out part of the campaign, it was the one that appealed most to the chest-thumping little-England sentiment.

So that's the sovereignty and the control-of-money-and-borders waffle dispatched. Next...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:24 AM

DMcG. Your patience knows no bounds! I am impressed. To be calmly and rationally explaining things to some who cannot tell the difference between "I am going to personalise it this time" and "not going to personalize it" takes some doing. I admire your fortitude but strongly suggest that you just ignore him as everyone else now does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:29 AM

Jim, the vote may have been in ignorance of the likely outcome therefore leave voters should admit their ignorance or confess that they deliberately voted because they personally wanted to kick people in the teeth by denying them the rights that they themselves had enjoyed for 40 years. Anyone who says that the resented these benefits for decades are surely liars. And again, I will rephrase the question. Those of you who are still brexiters, why do you still personally believe that UK nationals, including myself should not be entitled to freedom of movement and the benefits of the customs union?

On a side issue, if in the future Cornwall is denied structural support and investment by the UK government, then the retired wannabe gentry should not be surprised if out-of-work Cornish people help them 'come home to a real fire'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM

I don't like ignoring people, Dave. I will happy ignore posts are that are abuse, whoever posts them, and if I think someone is just trying to 'stir' I am also prepared to ignore them. But I think SPB's question is a good one and deserves an answer. That can only come from the Iains, Nigels, bobads and so on. I and other leavers can give our views, but it will have to be one of the leavers that answers.

Unless they avoid facing up to it which is what I expect. For example Nigel went as far as accepting there will be 'Some short term hardship' but was not openly prepared to say he is ready to accept his nearest and dearest suffering that hardship.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:40 AM

Steve, I gave Jim credit for your response, sorry Jim.

Freedom of movement is not just about travel, it is also the RIGHT to work, study, retire, live with another person. Again, a RIGHT, not the gift of an individual government which can be removed or have conditions attached to it at its whim. That is what treaties are for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:53 AM

Thanks for the response, DMcG. I have to differ with you purely on the basis that any interaction at all only encourages some to continue their campaigns of abuse and disruption.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:54 AM

Whoops! I and other *remainers*. I would not want to mislead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM

"Farage rather than garage of course. Before the people with only enough wit to use spelling mistakes as arguments jump on me."

Farridge, Farardsh, Garridge, garardsh, let's call the whole thing off!

Please?


(Sorry, this is no time for levity...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 08:57 AM

Exaggeration or not, this is how the situation is being reported.
I would be extremely disappointed if government did notPLAN for all sorts of eventualities. to highlight such planning is project fear.
I am sure various other scenarios are planned for that would horrify you, had you knowledge of them. But unlike biblical terminology, there is no guarantee that It shall come to pass

Again, a RIGHT, not the gift of an individual government which can be removed or have conditions attached to it at its whim.
Totally incorrect!
Until recently(relatively) your passport addressed you as a subject, not a citizen. The status today is both
subject or citizen
Should anyone wish to test it I amsure conscription would very forcefully demonstrate who is entitled to what.

So that's the sovereignty and the control-of-money-and-borders waffle dispatched. Next..
Whilst in the EU we abide by laws and regulations (a small minority of the ones that govern us,


As usual not a shred of evidence to support your assertions.


http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2012/06/13/europeanization-of-public-policy/

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 09:06 AM

"I will rephrase the question. Those of you who are still brexiters, why do you still personally believe that UK nationals, including myself should not be entitled to freedom of movement and the benefits of the customs union"
Hope that's not addressed to me - I'm for staying, not only on political principles, but over the last few wees, as Brits, we've been running around like blue-arsed flies trying to find out if Lemming Britain's actions will effect our living in Ireland
If it's going to effect us, how is it going to effect the several million brits living in Europe?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 09:31 AM

"I will rephrase the question. Those of you who are still brexiters, why do you still personally believe that UK nationals, including myself should not be entitled to freedom of movement and the benefits of the customs union"

As a British subject you are only entitled to such freedoms as the crown allows you. No more. No Less


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 11:22 AM

A rough translation is that they ask to be elected by promising the earth - we believe them and elect them - they totally ignore all the promises they made and work for the wealthy for five years - then the cycle is repeated ad-infinitum
It may be called democracy but in fact it is 'democratic dictatorship'
We have what rights they care to give us, no more
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 12:38 PM

A review of the new Dyson model - the 'Moral Vacuum'...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 01:50 PM

In case you did not know the pronunciation of Brexit in the US is Breg zit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 02:14 PM

Americans pronounce everything wrong! ;-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 03:10 PM

http://eveningharold.com/2019/01/23/dyson-launch-moral-vacuum/
The Sunday Times tax list is a full rundown of the top 50 taxpayers in 2017/18
Top was Stephen Rubin, owner of JD Sports and liable for £181.6 million last year

Sir James Dyson was third on the list paying £127.8 million


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:58 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM
. . . Unless they avoid facing up to it which is what I expect. For example Nigel went as far as accepting there will be 'Some short term hardship' but was not openly prepared to say he is ready to accept his nearest and dearest suffering that hardship.

There may be some 'short term hardship' (translate that expression how you may) but I am willing to accept that for myself, in the belief that getting free of membership of the EU will, in the long run, be better for the UK.
I realise that my immediate (younger) family may have voted 'remain'. That is, of course, their option. But my belief is that their votes (if that was the case) were based on the knowledge of a limited period of experience. I voted based on the history of the EU/EEC/Common Market since we joined. I believe that the original choice to join (taken by politicians), or to remain in 'The Common Market' (taken by referendum) was the wrong choice.
The more I see of the manoeuvres by the EU politicians (including a large number of our MPs) to pressurise us not to leave (despite the result of the referendum) the more I believe I was right to vote 'Leave'.
And I don't think I said "There will be some short term hardship". I think I accepted that there 'may' be, but that it was worth it to get out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:02 PM

That was my first post in this 'new' thread as I've been away on holiday (to Malta).
If we manage to escape the EU I don't imagine it will put any great barriers in the way of my taking such holidays in future (or to the Spanish islands, or elsewhere). The poorer (and sunnier) members of the EU rely on tourist income to a great extent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 08:10 PM

Well make sure your health cover is up to snuff because a crashout means no EHIC, and no reciprocal medical care agreements means that your insurance will cost more, and it will also mean that your existing conditions won't be covered unless you pay a fortune. It could mean no more free roaming. And don't expect to swan through customs at the airport like you do now either. It's true that a weak pound means that Brits may be less inclined to go to Europe on holiday, which in turn may provide an incentive for EU holiday providers to cut costs. But book your hols now, Nigel, because, sure as eggs is eggs, that will be temporary. We're not the only tourists who like to holiday in Europe. I stashed away a goodly supply of euros when I could get 1.20 or more to the pound. Lucky me. Better move fast before May gets trashed again this week, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 02:05 AM

It was no accident that I asked about hardship for your nearest and dearest rather than yourself. We have all seen the cinematic set piece where the villain threatens the hero who nobly bears it, so the villain turns his weapon on the hero's family. "You are prepared to die for your beliefs, I see. Are you prepared for these others to die for them?"

That you are prepared to put up with problems for your beliefs is your right. The question is are you prepared to let others (who don't necessarily share them) suffer for them. That does not look heroic. It looks self centred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 02:57 AM

Nigel's "does imagine" sums it all up really - that's what everybody has to do regarding Britain's future "imagine" - nobody knows what will happen after Britain leaves the E U, or, based on current rumblings, whether it even will leave
Already they are talking about putting any decision on 'the long finger' and pushing the date back a few months
One of the complaints of the economists and industrialists has long been that they cannot possibly plan for the future if they have no idea of what they are going to have to deal with
That rats like Dyson start deserting the sinking ship gives the impression that some of them have a good idea
Do you have any view of the shortages of medicines that is being discussed - can we assume that you "don't imagine" that will happen either?
I have become used to the mindless disinterest of our poster who wsums up British industry as the production of "widgets", but Nigel's complacency frankly depresses me
Is there no one on your side who can show some interest in Britain's future ?

Nice cartoon in the Irish edition of the Sunday Times - two road signs side-by-side - one reading "you are now leaving Fishguard", the other "Please join the queue for Dover here"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 04:48 AM

"I have become used to the mindless disinterest of our poster who wsums up British industry as the production of "widgets", but Nigel's complacency frankly depresses me
Is there no one on your side who can show some interest in Britain's future ?"


In black and white a very clear indication of not having the slightest idea of what was said. Most ably demonstrated by the following:
I left Liverpool in the 1960 when the containerisation wiped out Liverpool as a port - that was echoed throughout Britain
As was pointed out steverdores, dockers and longshoremen went the way of the dodo. The real story:Here(!Off the Waterfront: The long-run impact of technological change on ...
https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/polopoly_fs/1.679168!/file/2014_D2_2_Upward.pd.)

There never was a golden age . Old industries die, other modes of employment arise.
It is driven by economics and innovation. But discussing economics with the left is as productive as discussing metaphysics with a fruitfly.
Corbyn well recognises the problem:
Sep 26, 2017 - The Labour leader says it's right to be carrying out "war games" planning for government. ... suggested that there could be a run on the pound if Labour went into government. ...

This is a far more plausible scenario than wargaming troops on the streets after brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 04:56 AM

"That rats like Dyson start deserting the sinking ship gives the impression that some of them have a good idea"

Do you have any evidence to prove Mr Dyson is changing his tax domicile, or are you merely hurling insults at the man, who has tripled his U.K. team over the past five years and currently employs 3,500 people in the country, half of which are engineers and scientists.

I suggest you either prove your statement or retract publicly your slur on a man who paid 127.8 million to the Revenue last year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 05:05 AM

Not to anybody in particular
Interesting to see that a future excuse for when Brexit sends what is left of British in industry crashing into smithereens will be that we never had one worth talking about anyway
Patriots - who'd have 'em !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 05:36 AM

"Patriots - who'd have 'em !!"

I'm a firm believer in Samuel Johnson's theory of 'patriotism'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 05:50 AM

"Boswell tells us that Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775. He doesn't provide any context for how the remark arose, so we don't really know for sure what was on Johnson's mind at the time. However, Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.”

However:We, the People, recognize that we have responsibilities as well as rights; that our destinies are bound together; that a freedom which only asks what's in it for me, a freedom without a commitment to others, a freedom without love or charity or duty or patriotism, is unworthy of our founding ideals, and those who died in their defense. Barack Obama


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 06:48 AM

"I'm a firm believer in Samuel Johnson's theory of 'patriotism'."
Me too
We appear to be dealing with someone who believes that being patriotic means earning enough out of a country to have to pay £127.8 million per annum to the Revenue making a bomb out of EU subsidies for his farming enterprises, backing Brexit to the point of donating £12m, saying a "no deal" leave will "make no difference" and then pissing off from Britain when he realises that the policy he firmly supported and financed will rebound on him financially
'Rule Britannia every time - until the going gets tough
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:18 AM

SEEMS LIKE DYSON ISN'T THE ONLY SCURRYING RAT

Even the leading political Brexireers
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-john-redwood-tory-mp-investors-withdraw-money-uk-economy-city-london-eu-a8056771.html

Brexit is an investment to some
https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2018/02/08/2198570/jacob-rees-moggs-huge-personal-windfall-after-brexit/

True patriots all
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:23 AM

Well excuse me but I've always paid every single penny of all the tax I ever owed but all I bloody get on this forum is slagged off!

Odd chap, this Dyson. He campaigned and whinged and threatened the government when they wouldn't join the euro. Now he's somehow become an ardent brexiteer and his pronouncements and actions simply enable the confidence to be sapped from this country. With him we can't win, can we?

I'd also, as an aside, say this about him and his stuff. I've had his bloody hoovers, big beasts, cordless and hand-held, ever since they came out. When they work they're great, they really are, but give me a couple of hours and I'll tell you what's wrong with them. They jam, block, clog up, make a horrible whining noise (a bit like Sir Jim), spit out what they've just sucked up because the little flap doesn't work and the hoses last six months if you so much as dare to use them for the purpose for which they are supposedly intended. Emptying them unavoidably involves inevitable lung cancer. And the motors burn out and the allegedly washable filters are unfit for purpose. As for those hand-dryers in public bogs, it's an art in itself using them without touching the sides, and there's a puddle of slime, snot and at least one pubic hair in that nasty little trough at the bottom, so not too deep now, lads!

But his triumph came when he decided to give an unconditional five-year parts and labour warranty on his gear. Believe me, you need it and will invoke it often. That was his business coup de grace!

Finally, I'd say that any bloke who has accrued personal wealth of four and a half billion quid in a couple of decades making hoovers is ripping us off. If you don't believe me, look in the shops and admire the eye-watering prices of his stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:24 AM

DEFINITELY AN INVESTMENT TACTIC
Jaysus - they really did see the British people coming, didn't they ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:26 AM

"
DEFINITELY AN INVESTMENT TACTIC
"
There-there !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:26 AM

Aaaaahh-yup to all of that Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:29 AM

Never trust a man whose parents couldn't spell 'Aaron'. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:33 AM

Well excuse me but I've always paid every single penny of all the tax I ever owed but all I bloody get on this forum is slagged off!

Odd chap, this Dyson. He campaigned and whinged and threatened the government when they wouldn't join the euro. Now he's somehow become an ardent brexiteer and his pronouncements and actions simply enable the confidence to be sapped from this country. With him we can't win, can we?

I'd also, as an aside, say this about him and his stuff. I've had his bloody hoovers, big beasts, cordless and hand-held, ever since they came out. When they work they're great, they really are, but give me a couple of hours and I'll tell you what's wrong with them. They jam, block, clog up, make a horrible whining noise (a bit like Sir Jim), spit out what they've just sucked up because the little flap doesn't work and the hoses last six months if you so much as dare to use them for the purpose for which they are supposedly intended. Emptying them unavoidably involves inevitable lung cancer, and you'll spend a pleasant ten minutes finding something with which to dig out the compacted fluff from a thousand little holes - if you can actually manage to dismantle the drum sufficiently to get at the fluff, that is. And the motors burn out and the allegedly washable filters are unfit for purpose. As for those hand-dryers in public bogs, it's an art in itself using them without touching the sides, and there's a puddle of slime, snot and at least one pubic hair in that nasty little trough at the bottom, so not too deep now, lads!

But his triumph came when he decided to give an unconditional five-year parts and labour warranty on his gear. Believe me, you need it and will invoke it often. That was his business coup de grace!

Finally, I'd say that any bloke who has accrued personal wealth of four and a half billion quid in a couple of decades making hoovers is ripping us off. If you don't believe me, look in the shops and admire the eye-watering prices of his stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:35 AM

Dammit, I thought that hadn't taken! Leave it, mods - I embellished it a bit second time round!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 08:02 AM

Still no proof of Dyson's change of tax domicile, yet Sir Jim still continues to lie about the man. What a surprise!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 08:21 AM

"Finally, I'd say that any bloke who has accrued personal wealth of four and a half billion quid in a couple of decades making hoovers is ripping us off. If you don't believe me, look in the shops and admire the eye-watering prices of his stuff."

A typical ignorant leftard comment based on fliff, fluff and flimflam, that seems suspiciously like the politics of envy.

Dyson has mastered the noble art of manufacturing successful widgets.
He designed the Rotork Seatruck at age 23. It is a very useful mini landing craft that I have used in Gabon.

Greatest Inventions of Dyson
His personal wealth more than demonstrate that his widgets keep him solvent.

How he prices his goods is a matter for him but follows well trodden ground


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 08:25 AM

On the BBC News app at the moment....

"A no-deal Brexit threatens the UK's food security and will lead to higher prices and empty shelves, retailers are preparing to warn MPs.
M&S, Sainsbury's and Waitrose are among those warning stockpiling fresh food is impossible and that the UK is very reliant on the EU for produce.
The warning comes in a letter from the British Retail Consortium and is signed by the main food retailers.
It comes ahead of crucial votes in Parliament tomorrow.
The letter, seen by the BBC, uses the government's own estimate that freight through Calais may fall 87% from current levels, threatening the availability and shelf life of many products.
The letter expresses worry over tariffs, with only 10% of the UK's food imports currently subject to World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules.
If the UK were to revert to WTO rules, the retailers warn that would "greatly increase import costs that would in turn put upward pressure on food prices".
The other signatories to the letter include the chief executives of KFC, Co-Op, and Lidl.
The letter spells out the UK's food relationship with Europe, with nearly one third of the food in the UK coming from the EU.
"In March, the situation becomes more acute as UK produce is out of season," the letter says.
At that time of year, 90% of lettuces, 80% of tomatoes and 70% of soft fruit sold in the UK is grown in the EU, the letter says.
No more room to stockpile
"As this produce is fresh and perishable, it needs to be moved quickly from farms to our stores," the retailers say.
Retailers have been reluctant to intervene in the Brexit debate but are doing so now as the UK's departure date from the EU approaches.
Their letter says that stockpiling fresh food is impossible and that the complex, 'just in time' supply chain through which food is imported into the UK will be "significantly disrupted" in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
It adds it is difficult to stockpile any more produce as "all frozen and chilled storage is already been used".
"While we have been working closely with our suppliers on contingency plans, it is not possible to mitigate all the risks to our supply chains and we fear significant disruption as a result if there is no Brexit deal," the retailers say in the letter to MPs."

I don't remember seeing that on the side of that bloody bus!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 08:29 AM

I'm off to Waitrose to stockpile baked beans and air freshener.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 08:57 AM

What sucks even more than a Dyson? Support for Brexit from a direction you might not have expected:

The Communist Party


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 09:03 AM

"I'm off to Waitrose to stockpile baked beans and air freshener."
Don't forget to call into Boots for the medicines you might not be able to get
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 09:03 AM

Not to anybody in particular
Interesting to see that a future excuse for when Brexit sends what is left of British in industry crashing into smithereens will be that we never had one worth talking about anyway
Patriots - who'd have 'em !!


I cannot make any sense of what you are trying to say.

It is a real education to see that those that protest the most have zero clue as to the difference between a Dyson the man and Dyson Ltd(a company)
Never has such confusion been displayed by so few.

In January 2019 it was announced that Dyson would move its headquarters to Singapore to ramp up manufacturing for their electric vehicle, stating Asia trade will be their main focus and commenting that the company was unhappy with EU/UK bureaucratic restrictions.

You really must learn to post accurately, otherwise your credibility goes pfffffff!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 09:08 AM

I am fairly sure I read that Rees-Mogg joked at the Bruges group speech that someone had thrust a leaflet into his hand which he found "sound on Brexit" and then discovered it was from the Communist party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 10:04 AM

An interesting analysis:


https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/what-will-happen-to-the-tory-traitors/

and the EU's useful idiots. Do they not realize that EU tax harmonization will create a wasteland where the multinationals once were? That will be their payment!

https://order-order.com/2019/01/28/irish-government-accused-weaponising-good-friday-agreement/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 10:16 AM

I suspect that the Brexiteers on here will tell us that the warning issued by retailers Sainburys, Asda, M & S, Co-op and Waitrose of expected shortages post Brexit to the Government are all part of Project Fear or that we cannot trust their predictions.

Could someone please link to the article in todays Guardian.

If the Brexiteers do not respond as I have suggested I have no doubt they will ignore this post completely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 10:17 AM

Isn't it fascinating that someone who considers it anti-British to attack elected British members of parliament rant on about politicians of hiss own party and refers to the ones he doesn't agree with as "traitors"
Never understood this patriotism thing


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 10:33 AM

Guardian article on retailers' warning


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 10:38 AM

Thanks DMcG


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 11:51 AM

There was talk of what Samuel Johnson thought of patriotism. Here some extracts from his pamphlet The Patriot:

A man sometimes starts up a patriot, only by disseminating discontent, and propagating reports of secret influence, of dangerous counsels, of violated rights, and encroaching usurpation.

   This practice is no certain note of patriotism. To instigate the populace with rage beyond the provocation, is to suspend publick happiness, if not to destroy it. He is no lover of his country, that unnecessarily disturbs its peace. Few errours and few faults of government, can justify an appeal to the rabble; who ought not to judge of what they cannot understand, and whose opinions are not propagated by reason, but caught by contagion

   ...
   
   But all this may be done in appearance, without real patriotism. He that raises false hopes to serve a present purpose, only makes a way for disappointment and discontent. He who promises to endeavour, what he knows his endeavours unable to effect, means only to delude his followers by an empty clamour of ineffectual zeal.
   A true patriot is no lavish promiser: he undertakes not to shorten parliaments; to repeal laws; or to change the mode of representation, transmitted by our ancestors; he knows that futurity is not in his power, and that all times are not alike favourable to change.
   Much less does he make a vague and indefinite promise of obeying the mandates of his constituents. He knows the prejudices of faction, and the inconstancy of the multitude. He would first inquire, how the opinion of his constituents shall be taken. Popular instructions are, commonly, the work, not of the wise and steady, but the violent and rash; meetings held for directing representatives are seldom attended but by the idle and the dissolute; and he is not without suspicion, that of his constituents, as of other numbers of men, the smaller part may often be the wiser.
   He considers himself as deputed to promote the publick good, and to preserve his constituents, with the rest of his countrymen, not only from being hurt by others, but from hurting themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 12:19 PM

Sounds like a perfect description of the Brexshiteers, and a bloody good reason to kick them, and their insane BrexShit notions into touch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 12:37 PM

"Sounds like a perfect description of the Brexshiteers,"
There's a nice leter in the Irsih Times this morning describing new terms that have sprung since the referendum - I was quite taken by "Brexcrement"
Someone must be reading your postings Baccie !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 01:06 PM

BBC news has just reported than a number of major food manufacturers have predicted that supermarket shelves could be left empty if Birtain crashes out of the E.U.
One brave Brexiteer interviewed told the reporter - "it wont do us any harm to do without for once"
You really couldn't make this up
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 01:27 PM

The date will have to be put back according to a Daily Mirror article from 23 Jan under the headline :
“Brexit has already been cancelled - and here's why they're not telling you”

There just won’t be enough parliamentary time to conclude the bills that need to be passed before March 29 .
“Of the 14 new bills required for Brexit - on things like animal welfare, money laundering and haulage - just 5 have been passed since the referendum.
Of the 9 remaining, the one closest to being finished is the Trade Bill - and the House of Lords just voted to shelve it because it lacked detail.”
That defeat in the Lords means that Britain is now unable to move to World Trade Organisation rules in the event of a no deal Brexit.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-already-been-cancelled-heres-13896286


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 02:47 PM

If we believed everything we read in the Daily Mirror we would be in a very sad way. Most educated people regard it as a comic, along with the guardian, apart from teachers who like freebies.

Isn't it fascinating that someone who considers it anti-British to attack elected British members of parliament rant on about politicians of hiss own party and refers to the ones he doesn't agree with as "traitors"
Never understood this patriotism thing


It is in fine company then and joins a host of other things you do not understand. By the way are you going to substantiate your statement about Dyson moving his tax domicile, or apologize for using terminological inexactitudes? We await your response with interest!
This is twice I have asked now!

Let me explain who the traitors are.
MPs have voted by a majority of 384 to allow Prime Minister Theresa May to get Brexit negotiations under way.

They backed the government's European Union Bill, supported by the Labour leadership, by 498 votes to 114.

But the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats opposed the bill, while 47 Labour MPs and Tory ex-chancellor Ken Clarke rebelled.

Several months later there was a general election. Did any Tory MPs voice an objection to brexit or inform their electorate they would betray them 5 minutes later. The answer is: No they did not. Ensuring the security of their sinecure was of more importance to them than being honest to their electorate. Those are the facts and those facts lead a rational person to only one conclusiuon. Betrayal!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 03:06 PM

Eeeeh. Isn't this fun. Keep it up lads ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 03:07 PM

I see that the government is backing the Brady amendment, the one about revising tbe backstop. I can't see how this is going to move us on. The backstop can neither be removed nor time-limited, nor should it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 03:22 PM

It seems to rely entirely on the assumption that the EU will back down. Seems unlikely to me. So then she would have to bring back version A again, more or less. Unless the amendments of Cooper and Grieve are in play, who can even guess what would happen then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 03:23 PM

I heard briefly on the news tonight that tomatoes would rise by 28% post a no deal Brexit and imported Cheddar cheese by 40%.

Now for myself I couldn't give a monkeys, a hiatus hernia means I cannot eat tomatoes and a lactose intolerance means I cannot eat cheese.

However unlike some posters on here I really do care about my fellow human being so I am appalled that such a situation, which is easily avoidable, is even being considered.

Now I know that in the great scheme of things these are "minor" considerations but not to those with limited incomes.

I do notice that our resident Brexiteers have yet to respond to my earlier post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 04:07 PM

making a bomb out of EU subsidies for his farming enterprises,

Fact: Billionaire Brexit backer Sir James Dyson's farming business was the biggest private recipient of EU basic payments in the UK in 2016, receiving £1.6 million.

Currently, the lion's share of the UK's £3 billion in subsidies from the EU goes to basic payments linked to land area, with some environmental requirements, while a proportion is paid to environmentally friendly farming and other schemes.

New Environment Secretary (Friday 30 June 2017 08:23) Michael Gove has said Brexit is a chance to get rid of bureaucracy and design a better system of supporting farmers that could better protect and enhance the environment.

Sounds a win win to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 05:28 PM

Mature cheddar doesn't contain lactose, Raggytash. Enjoy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:12 PM

Gove's "better system" actually involves the phasing out of almost all the subsidies, almost all of which in turn comes from the CAP, within seven years. Farmers were mainly leave voters. They are soon to find out that they were the ultimate turkeys voting for Christmas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 08:22 PM

"No wonder farmers fear the Brexit wolf in sheep’s clothing"

Google that to read some stuff that should trouble farmers. Of course, farming helps to make the countryside what it is, and it's not bad despite some hooliganistic practices such as planting maize on slopes, drenching crops with neonicotinoids and planting miscanthus on land that could grow food. But farming, in pure money terms, is bad value. It produces well under one percent of our GDP and receives billions in subsidies. Once we leave the EU the severely weakened economy will ensure that farming comes low in the list of priorities for propping up, what with education, social care and the NHS also under severe strain. We've been promised many things by brexiteers that haven't got a cat in hell's chance of coming about. Subsidies for farmers are utterly stuffed, and Gove's promises aren't worth tbe paper they're written on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 02:06 AM

Gove is, I suppose, right that a hard Brexit gives us a chance to design a better system. But having the chance to do something and actually doing it are very different things. The government track record of designing systems to replace others that are actually improvements is lamentable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 03:19 AM

NP WONDER FARMERS FEAR THE BREXIT WOLF

"If we believed everything we read in the Daily Mirror we would be in a very sad way."
MY HERO - AN HONEST ALTERNATIVE !!!

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 03:35 AM

No surprises there then, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:09 AM

It really is time this 'fake news' denial is left to the White House and people who want to be part of this discussion come up with real arguments instead of meaningless reliable star bloggers
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:25 AM

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/guido-fawkes/

So the heroic guido is to the right politically. What a clever lad to point that out! Hardly likely we, the educated, were unaware of the fact.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the%20guardian/

The Loony Left
The thoughts of Churchill on the subject:
“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.”
and even more perspicuous
“Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy.”

Abraham Lincoln to the Workingmen’s Association of New York

‘Property is the fruit of labor; property is desirable; it is a positive good in the world. That some should be rich shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise’”

You should adopt Dyson as a role model but no doubt the only way to eradicate the dangerous indoctrination of the left is by a complete brain transplant! Then you can all become embryonic little capitalists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:38 AM

No additional domestic agricultural subsidies should be made on top of those already in place. CAP subsidies must not be replaced until shut time there is a net positive revenue on so called savings on EU contributions after additional NHS funding has been prioritised. If it means evicting wealthy land ownwers and handing the farms into common ownership, so be it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:49 AM

DMcG Few errors and few faults of government, can justify an appeal to the rabble; who ought not to judge of what they cannot understand, and whose opinions are not propagated by reason, but caught by contagion

The participants on the winning side of the French Revolution   obviously disagreed, as also the American revolutionaries.

It really is time this 'fake news' denial is left to the White House and people who want to be part of this discussion come up with real arguments instead of meaningless reliable star bloggers
I quite agree, you should be ashamed of yourselves quoting project fear projections. They are all froth and hyperbole

You may not like the way he says it but you have yet to itemize any lies by the font of all good news Mr Guido!
Bias is intrinsic in any news report. Most of us learnt this basic fact decades ago, apart from ardent gruniardistas. But we all know.They are best ignored.

https://order-order.com/2019/01/29/malthouse-compromise-leavers-remainers-unite-behind-brexit-plan-c/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:54 AM

we just got back from a few days in dublin - very pleasant city. we had exceptionally good service in the hotel, bars and restaurants from friendly workers from all over europe. a positive atmosphere all round. we got off the plane in glasgow and with no passport checks were on the motorway down to cumbria in 15 minutes. very sad that a proportion of our population think this sort of experience is worth nothing and that we should be doing our best to reject it. ..or - FFS- there may be trouble.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:59 AM

If it means evicting wealthy land ownwers and handing the farms into common ownership, so be it.

Required reading for leftards!


https://fee.org/articles/why-socialism-failed/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM

Overall, we rate Guido Fawkes Right Biased due to word choices that favor the Right and Mixed for factual reporting based on poor sourcing. (M. Huitsing 6/13/2018)

Overall, we rate The Guardian Left-Center biased based on story selection that moderately favors the left and High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record. (5/18/2016) Updated (M. Huitsing 7/19/2018)


No need for further comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 06:14 AM

There is a photo on the Guardian of someone holding a placard saying "Does your MP think you are stupid?"

Yes. But he is in the ERG, and put a video up saying his reasons for voting to leave were simple: He didn't like the EU, he didn't respect the EU flag, he didn't like the regulations...."

All about what he liked. Not a word about what was in the countries best interests which may of course differ.

So I can cope with whatever he thinks of me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 06:31 AM

"No need for further comment."
None whatever
If you respond he ignores what you say and hurls meaningless quotes at you (I counting three in the space of four postings) - infant school level 'debating'
Don't be part of it (he said after just allowing himself to be drawn in)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:20 AM

"Yes. But he is in the ERG, and put a video up saying his reasons for voting to leave were simple: He didn't like the EU, he didn't respect the EU flag, he didn't like the regulations...."

All about what he liked. Not a word about what was in the countries best interests which may of course differ."


I'm guessing he's either immensely wealthy, and became an MP in order to influence decisions which affect his wealth, or he's in the pay of immensely wealthy people (a bit like May's husband).

The ERG Group give not a Flying Fuck about the likes of any of us on here - even those whose tongues are firmly embedded in the anal sphincters of the Extreme Right - they care only about their own wealth, or the wealth of those they serve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:33 AM

Please allow Iains to continue shitting in his own bed without any response at all from us. He's done enough in the last day or two to get kicked out of this forum but we severely weaken the case for that every single time we respond in any way whatsoever. Ignore him or just talk past him. I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case. Please!

(And that includes me with this potentially self-defeating post!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM

Will do, Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:56 AM

In my last post, I was responding to DMcG.

I no longer even read anything Iains posts - he has absolutely no interest in exchanging views and opinions in a civil manner, he is only interested in causing conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:05 AM

I wasn't having a go, John!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:10 AM

I know you weren't, Steve! Just wanted to be clear for everyone else's sake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:23 AM

May seems to be gaining support for renegotiation - no sign of any of them trusting the people with a democratic re-vote though
Brexit is set fair to cause FOOD PRICES TO RISE and you can lay money on it that them who can will exploit the situation to their advantage - WHEN HAVE THEY NOT ?

I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case. Please!"
Good luck
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:30 AM

She may get support for renegotiation: actually persuading the EU to renegotiate is another matter. But should they succeed, the only likely alternative from their side is the 'border in the Irish sea." Which I suspect most Brexiteers could compromise to, and if that is the only alternative to a hard Brexit they could get enough support across the house. The DUP will have voted for one of the main things they are against.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:56 AM

Does anyone read those posts?
..................
Yet again we get Theresa May refusing to make any change. Her idea of a new adjusted arrangemaent is where someone else changes and she stays in the same place. The Theresa May Syndrome needs to be clinically recognised.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." That quote is frequently said to be by Albert Einstein. It probably wasn't actually him - but it very much sums up the Theresa May Syndrome.

It's extraordinary that Jeremy Corbyn was pilloried over the assertion that he muttered the comment "Stupid woman" in face of Theresa May. It strikes me that he might as well have muttered "Theresa May", and it would have had precisely the same meaning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 09:22 AM

I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case. Please!



Meanwhile the self proclaimed epitome of virtue posts the following:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 05:52 PM

You are a prize lout and a prize scumbag, Iains, as you have comprehensively demonstrated via your postings in several threads over the last few days (and over a much longer period, actually), as we've all observed. That isn't me saying that. You are self-declared in those regards. Your posts are capricious and immature, demonstrating that you actually need help - you have my sympathy. There really is something seriously the matter with you. There are far more decent people here than the few thorough nasties like you, bobad and, above all, Keith. You are yesterday's man and the more you open yourself to ridicule via your typically splenetic and vacuous posts the more we will ridicule you. I hope the moderators read this - they made a splendid decision a few months back to delete Teribus and akenaton from this forum. You are far more scurrilously negative than either of those. I don't actually care whether you are allowed to remain here or not. I hope that the thoroughly decent members here, including Raggytash, Dave, pfr, Jim, DMcG, Backwoodsman and Pete (sorry if I've missed anybody out) will do as I'm going to do, studiously blank you out completely. Do your worst, you big kid. You'll be a marble rattling in a biscuit tin as far as I'm concerned from now on.

Such flattery! Never mind shaw. As I have stated before I hold you in the deepest contempt as do others. After all being a called out as a"bastard" by a discerning member is hardly a ringing endorsement!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 09:35 AM

There Steve - he's made your case for you
If you wish, I' provide the list of his abuses that back up what you say
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 09:56 AM

A border in the Irish Sea would open a massive can of worms resulting in restriction of freedom of movement between different parts of the UK, which I think I might countenance if London could have a hard border with the rest of UK in exchange with staying in the customs union.

The only realistic solutions therefore would be to make NI a sovereign state, unite NI with the rest of Ireland, conclude that leaving EU is impossible, or commit economic and social suicide by just going over the cliff edge.

Sometimes I wonder if we agreed in a referendum to put rat poison in school meals then those who voted for it would refuse to back down from the decision if an expert inconveniently was to point out that this would result in millions of dead school children.

Being in government must entail working in the best interests of the population,(I would go further thatgovernments collectively should be working for the best interests of humanity) not in the interests of appeasing those who may withdraw their vote for a political party if they don't get their own way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 10:12 AM

Ignore him, Jim.


The best interest of the nation would be served by abandoning brexit. Brexit is a bit like the emperor's new clothes. They don't actually exist, though most of our politicians, as well as the feeble-minded leave camp in general, think they can see silk and shiny sequins. The emperor's scruffy old Asda George shirt and undies and old Woolworths jeans (a bit like the EU) at least kept him safe and warm and stopped him from catching a severe chill. Well they work for me anyway, though I must confess that I haven't been outside in the cold today...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 10:14 AM

...not in the buff anyway. Down girls...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 10:25 AM

Meanwhile back at the ranch:
Fiona Onasanya, Peterborough’s Labour* MP who was last year found guilty of perverting the course of justice, has been sentenced this morning to three months. She has become the first woman MP ever to be jailed…
The Tory hopeful is already electioneering for her seat. It seems a very mild slap on the wrist for an MP and solicitor to be found guilty of perverting the course of justice.(Huhne fessed up and got 9 months) so much for all being equal under the law!

and from the font of all things good. GUIDO

This is the order the amendments will be voted on, starting at 7pm:

    (a) Jeremy Corbyn – calls on the PM to rule out no deal while, predictably, keeping all options on the table
    (o) Ian Blackford – notes that the SNP don’t like Brexit, calls for no deal to be ruled out and Article 50 extended
    (g) Dominic Grieve – suspends normal Parliamentary procedure on six dates in February and March allowing MPs to hijack Brexit
    (b) Yvette Cooper – suspends normal Parliamentary procedure on 5th February to allow MPs to bring a Brexit-blocking Bill in
    (j) Rachel Reeves – calls on the PM to seek an extension to Article 50
    (i) Caroline Spelman – notes that Parliament rejects leaving without a deal
    (n) Graham Brady – calls for the Northern Ireland backstop to be replaced with alternative arrangements to avoid a hard border


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 11:02 AM

we just got back from a few days in dublin - very pleasant city. we had exceptionally good service in the hotel, bars and restaurants from friendly workers from all over europe. a positive atmosphere all round. we got off the plane in glasgow and with no passport checks

No passport controls between Ireland and the UK is by no means automatic, especially by air travel. I would say more than 50% of the time flying to Ireland my passport was checked on arrival.
Two EU members – Ireland and the United Kingdom – negotiated opt-outs from Schengen and continue to operate the Common Travel Area systematic border controls with other EU member states.
However, Irish immigration officers will check the ID of all passengers arriving by air from the UK and may ask for proof of nationality, particularly if you were born outside the UK. (Still current at: 29 January 2019 gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ireland)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 11:06 AM

"...not in the buff anyway. Down girls..."
Not the only thing that's "down" in the cold weather


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 12:21 PM

There Steve - he's made your case for you
If you wish, I' provide the list of his abuses that back up what you say
Jim


Howsabout some of yours laddie, you little charmer!

Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM
Will you kindly fuck off with your arrogant ranting - it impresses nobody
Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 02:57 PMMake up your fucking mind you mad fascist
You really are the Full Monty as far as right wing extremism goes
Jim Carroll - PM

Date: 05 Feb 17 - 05:48 AM
CAN SOME HUMANE FORUM FAIRY WHO HAPPENS TO BE IN THE VICINITY PLEASE CLOSE DOWN THIS MINDLESSLY OBSESSIVE ONE-MAN CAMPAIGN. SOMEONE PUT HIM OUT OF ALL OUR MISERIES, PLEASE!!  
Still the same old, same old imbecility -are you really so insecure in your position?
For crying out loud, grow up and try to conduct a reasonable argument without the blustering bullshit - how old are you?
It's like trying to discuss with a truculent child

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 06:56 PM
Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians
People with far more knowledge and experience have had their fingers burned on this forum by forgetting their place.
You really are an obnoxiously smug bastard, aren't you - what a pity your contributions don't live up to your posturing - especially regarding your supporst for a mass murder and torturer.
Christ - what a team - racists, fascists and moronic bullies who think they know more than anyone else after five minutes posting.



Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:29 AM
Are yuo a racist or what (rheororical question - of course)
you seem to just exist up your own arse and you're not even good at it, having stolen most of it from elsewhere, like your claimed knowledge of socialism
Jim Carroll

Piss off you pair of racist pricks
Jim Carroll
At present, you are displaying all the belligerent thuggery and potential menage I associate with the racism you are displaying.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 12:39 PM

Quasi-exciting stuff. The Brady amendment, which is meaningless drivel, is on a knife-edge, as is Yvette Cooper's, one that makes much more sense. Amazing, innit, how May has to hang on to every whim of the sectarian DUP and the back-stabbing far right of the ERG...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:08 PM

May's opponents in the Tory party, led by Lord Snooty, have been holding secret meetings to plan how she is going to be handled
Would you bleedin' Adam 'n Eve it !!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:24 PM

The trouble with both those amendments is that both of them are about the UK parliament deciding something should happen which are completely out of its power to make happen, and which there is no reason can happen.

The Brady one is just about expecting the EU to do something it has repeatedly said it will not and cannot do; and the Cooper amendment isn't much better. Even if the Prime Minister can be compelled ask the EU to postpone the March headline when the UK is due to cease to be a member of the EU - there is no reason why the EU should agree to that, given the continued refusal of the UK government to change its "red lines".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:25 PM

They're holding one to decide what to do just before the Brady vote tonight. You wouldn't think there was a country at stake...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:33 PM

Their wealth, and their ability to continue to run their tax-avoidance scams, are their top priority. The rest of us can go hang, they don't give a FF about us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 02:02 PM

Stephen Barclay in summing has been asked three times (at least) what the phrase "alternative arrangements" means in the amendment the government is backing. After a series of dodges he finally had to say they would be whatever we could negotiate (ie no idea!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 03:42 PM

Faisal Islam(@faisalislam)
Go9d summaey from sky news:


Commons in short, so far.

We totally reject May’s Deal
We reject No Deal
We reject the power to stop No Deal ourselves.

Now voting to give the PM a mandate to change a backstop she negotiated that has already been rejected by negotiation partners.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 03:49 PM

So they've passed that silly amendment. More time wasted, more playing dice with the well-being of the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM

And the EU immediately responded in writing that the agreement will not be reopened.

It is all going so well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:33 PM

39 billion is a very enticing persuader. We are not talking about an
Ein Bahn Strasse.Now the PM has had her mandate renewed she can play a very strong hand.
Spiffing to see steptoe senior and his front bench looking as though they have been chewing on wasps!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 06:25 PM

So the EU will rightly tell May to bugger off, as THEIR remit is to act in the best interests of its members, ie Ireland in this case, not to pander to the naughty child who's thrown his toys (and himself) out of the pram. Mucking about with the backstop is tantamount to selling Ireland down the river and risking tearing up the Good Friday Agreement. But it won't be spun that way. Oh, no. It will be the EU being bullying, intransigent and inflexible. Just watch this space.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 06:29 PM

I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case.

Bully boy's at it again I see. The mods have him pegged.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:03 PM

From Rafael Behr in today's Guardian:

This new Malthouse doctrine is really the old hardline Brexit delusions in shinier shoes. It is the bluff that Britain holds all the cards, and that if we show enough contempt for treaties and economic logic, Brussels will be intimidated into granting favours that could not be won by conventional diplomacy.

There are two possible reasons for pursuing that strategy. One is stupidity: failure to grasp what the negotiations so far have actually been about and how May’s deal was their logical outcome. The second is cynical vandalism: knowing that the plan will fail and hoping, when it does, to pin blame for a chaotic no-deal Brexit on Brussels intransigence. In truth it would be the fruition of Eurosceptic zealotry.

It is sad to see self-styled Tory “moderates” taken in by such a con and alarming to hear May indulge it in the Commons as a “serious proposal”. Her next move is to Brussels, in a quest for something that two years of negotiation have already failed to uncover. But it seems the way to unite Tories these days is to expunge the period 2017 to 2018 from memory. May still acts as if Brexit is something that must be settled to the satisfaction of the Conservative party first, and only then shared with the rest of Europe. The British public is at the very back of the queue.


Couldn't have put it better meself. Just watch the machinations and the twisting and the lying to come in the next couple of weeks. The last sentence is instructive: the interests of the people really don't seem to matter any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:59 PM

And guess who said this in the debate:

“One has to keep in mind and respect the decision of the referendum, but that does not mean that you simply say that you’re going to drag the country out on terms that nobody seems to very much support towards a future which on the face of it looks pretty bad. And that is an abdication of our responsibility.”

Sometimes you come across something that makes you think "Why is he a Tory?" I might not agree much with the first bit, but the rest is measured and good. Why, 'twas Dominic Grieve!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 09:45 PM

The Communist Party of Britain wants to Brexit under World Trade Organization rules. Peter Sutherland , the first Director-General of the World Trade Organization who drafted the organization’s rules was also an EU commissioner !


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 02:00 AM

The Official Monster Raving Loony Party also has a Brexit policy.

It's worth remembering that the OMRLP has exactly the same number of MPs as the Communist Party of Britain, and its Brexit policy has exactly the same value as that of the CPoB - precisely Sweet Fuck All.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 02:19 AM

One of the things at risk of being under-reported is that the Spelman amendment to oppose a no-deal was carried by 8.   

It has long been reported that a majority of the House are against no deal, and at first sight this bears that out. The margin is probably an underestimate, because May promised there would be another opportunity to oppose no-deal in February. Also, the fact that the vote was entirely symbolic adds fogginess: some will vote in favour of the amendment because it has no consequences, and some will not vote for it and risk upsetting the voters at home precisely because it has no effect.

But with all that said, 8 is a very thin margin. I am not at all confident that if it came to it, the House would oppose a no-deal in the final moments. There is something in game theory called 'The Tragedy of the Commons' (in the sense of commonly owned land); it is ironic that the House of Commons looks like it will be a perfect example.

Over on the earlier thread, I referred to a prediction Nigel had made that we would leave on 31st on WTO rules, whereas I predicted come the 1st April we would still be trying to decide what we are doing. That the house voted to adopt the policy of 'Wait for the Other Guy to Blink' (even though this is the antithesis of #taking back control') means I think Nigel's prediction is now the more likely. If May comes back in February with nothing from the EU, the house will simply say "Ah, that's what we expected. Let's keep waiting, the EU will crack in the end."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 02:34 AM

'They' are heading for a No-Deal-Brexit, and delaying, delaying, delaying in order to fool the feeble-minded amongst us, when the true horror of what that means hits them, that's 'It's all the fault of the EU and their intransigence - they forced us into it, we had no alternative'.

But hey-ho, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Jonathan Redwood, Philip May and his clients, and the tiny, immensely-wealthy cadre who give the Tories their orders will all be very happy as they continue their tax-avoidance schemes...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 04:19 AM

I heard Rees-Mogg going on this morning about a no deal allowing us to exit without paying the debts currently owed to the EU. Just shows how he works. Got a lot in common with Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 04:48 AM

They don't get rich by letting money go from their greedy, grasping hands, Dave!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 05:31 AM

A bit of light relief

Britain to repeat its Brexit offer loudly and slowly until the foreigners get it

Well, it would be but for some people... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 05:54 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:03 PM

From Rafael Behr in today's Guardian:


"This new Malthouse doctrine is really the old hardline Brexit delusions in shinier shoes. It is the bluff that Britain holds all the cards, and that if we show enough contempt for treaties and economic logic, Brussels will be intimidated into granting favours that could not be won by conventional diplomacy.

There are two possible reasons for pursuing that strategy. One is stupidity: failure to grasp what the negotiations so far have actually been about and how May's deal was their logical outcome. The second is cynical vandalism: knowing that the plan will fail and hoping, when it does, to pin blame for a chaotic no-deal Brexit on Brussels intransigence. In truth it would be the fruition of Eurosceptic zealotry.

It is sad to see self-styled Tory "moderates" taken in by such a con and alarming to hear May indulge it in the Commons as a "serious proposal". Her next move is to Brussels, in a quest for something that two years of negotiation have already failed to uncover. But it seems the way to unite Tories these days is to expunge the period 2017 to 2018 from memory. May still acts as if Brexit is something that must be settled to the satisfaction of the Conservative party first, and only then shared with the rest of Europe. The British public is at the very back of the queue."

Couldn't have put it better meself. Just watch the machinations and the twisting and the lying to come in the next couple of weeks. The last sentence is instructive: the interests of the people really don't seem to matter any more.

You're right. You couldn't have put it better yourself. That doesn't mean that it is accurate.
May does NOT "act as if it must be settled to the satisfaction of the Conservative party first". She excluded the majority of the conservative party from any discussions, and would not be led by her "Brexit ministers". She presented the cabinet with a fait accompli at Chequers, in such a manner that made it very difficult for them to object (at that time). They were incommunicado, their mobiles handed in, and had no transport home if they left the cabinet at that stage.
The 'agreement' she offered them at that time had already been shown to (some) EU leaders, so the view of the Conservative MPs (be it Cabinet, MPs at Westminster, or the party as a whole) did not get a chance to show 'satisfaction' (or otherwise) with the agreement ahead of it being made public to the rest of the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 06:41 AM

You'll like this one, BWM

"Deluded" Boris and "unicorn" Raab get shut down on live TV

Looks like more and more people are understanding that the promises made are the stuff of fantasy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 08:14 AM

It's unicorns all the way down...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM

Rafael Behr in today's Guardian:...............

Why on earth would anyone sensible wish to waste their energy wading through the partisan ramblings of a lefty media hack?

More fruitful to take heed of the ruminations of the Nation's leader!

Brought by courtesy of Mr Guido. The font of all topical and accurate reporting.



Backstop Alternatives


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 08:29 AM

On the more serious side, it does worry me that people are using the card game analogies. 'We hold all the cards'. 'We need to call the EU's bluff'. Even if these were true, to liken the fate of a nation to a game of chance seems to be somewhat frivolous to say the least. We have already seen the effect of Cameron banking on the referendum saying stay. Are memories really so short?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 09:12 AM

How Businesses Are Preparing for Brexit

Makes grim reading. Doesn't affect me but it will affect many others. My children and grandchildren included.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 09:36 AM

Interesting article from Simon Wren-Lewis (Emeritus Professor of Economics and Fellow of Merton College, University of Oxford) in the New Statesman.

Why the UK cannot see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid

A point I have made all along is that if the likes of Murdoch and Rothermere want to leave, you can bet your bottom dollar that it is only to benefit them. The author of the article makes the point

If people have doubts about my argument that the media played a central role is misdirecting the public then (and many do), well Brexit should be a test case. And so far Brexit has gone exactly as these newspaper proprietors would have wished. Three coincidences is a row? The reason why those overseas can see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid while the UK stockpiles food and medicine, and the Prime Minister tries to blackmail MPs into supporting her deal, is because those overseas are not influenced by the UK media.

I suspect there will be no sensible arguments against Prof. Wren-Lewis's views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 10:37 AM

The reason why those overseas can see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid ... is because those overseas are not influenced by the UK media.

Not quite.

The U.S. is constantly polluted by a tsunami of Murdoch pigs**t as well.

I expect the Trumpist f**kwits think Brexit is at least as good an idea as "The Wall".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 11:30 AM

Simon Wren-Lewis (Emeritus Professor of Economics and Fellow of Merton College, University of Oxford)
On 27 September 2015 it was announced that he had been appointed to the British Labour Party's Economic Advisory Committee, convened by Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell and reporting to Labour Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn.

No guessing as to which side he is batting for then.
Project fear by a professor.

Now the true story by the Gruniard no less:
Why economic forecasting has always been a flawed science
While accepting the Nobel prize for economics, Friedrich Hayek made an astonishing admission. Not only were economists unsure about their predictions, he noted, but their tendency to present their findings with the certainty of the language of science was misleading and “may have deplorable effects”.

This revelation, made about 40 years ago, is a crucial one and yet it has been largely forgotten or ignored.


https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/sep/02/economic-forecasting-flawed-science-data


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 11:46 AM

Brexit has exposed an unfortunate reality – that the media’s commitment to reporting the facts, pure and simple, leaves a lot to be desired. And while this could be the product of bad journalism and poor research, there is also the possibility that that its ‘research and inform’ function has been usurped by a role as ‘narrative manufacturers’. And that’s a big worry.

Why did some South Asians vote for a campaign that was, at times, seen as bigoted and xenophobic? Perhaps voters didn’t feel particularly European; or perhaps the Leave camp’s pro-Commonwealth rhetoric pulled hard on the heartstrings; or perhaps the supposedly xenophobic and racist elements of the Leave campaign just didn’t offend many well-integrated, South Asian voters who strongly identify with the UK.

https://unherd.com/2019/01/brexits-unheard-voices/

This rather destroys the narrative repeatedly thrown at us by few lefties here. Racists, Bigots. I rather think not!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:02 PM

“the Communist Party of Britain, and its Brexit policy has exactly the same value as that of the CPoB - precisely Sweet Fuck All.”

The CPB has a lot of influence , Backwoodsman . The fact that Jeremy Corbyn supports and writes regularly in its daily paper, the Morning Star , goes some way to explaining his inability to lead a fight against Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:04 PM

Just on the BBC News App...

Brexit: Backstop is 'part and parcel' of the deal, says Michel Barnier - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47061650


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:08 PM

Mick, despite the Tories' attempt to make it so, Brexit is not a party-political issue. And if May had made it a cross-Party project right from the start, she wouldn't have been in the shit-pile she's in now. All the way through, she's had a policy of keeping the other parties at arm's length. It's a bit of a cheek to complain now that Corbyn and Labour aren't helping her out.

She made her bed, let her lie in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:12 PM

Brexit is usually portrayed as an exclusively right- wing project, but in my opinion, the 2016 referendum result would have been different if the Leave campaign hadn’t been supported by left Brexiteer groups such as the Communist Party, the SWP and Socialist Party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:38 PM

Backwoodsman ,certain sections of Labour helped Boris J and Farage out. Dennis Skinner another left Brexiteer and Morning Star reader George Galloway another . I have asked friends in the Communist Party of Ireland -which bizarrely supported and campaigned for Brexit - what percentage of the vote did they think the left contributed to the result ;I have asked supporters of the pro-Brexit People Before Profit group here the same question.They always get uncomfortable and say something like “a very small percentage” , which makes them as irrelevant as you thinks they are . But these groups are not irrelevant .If there was proportional representation in the UK as there is in Ireland, I’m sure such left Brexiteer groups would have several MPs .Getting groups like that to at least abstain in future referendums or to leave the Brexit coalition is the key to overturning the disaster in my opinon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:44 PM

Brexit is usually portrayed as an exclusively right- wing project
It may be portrayed that way, especially on this forum, but unfortunately the facts do not support it. That is why the left resort to constant swearing and insults in a futile endeavour to hide these self evident truths

"While referendum boundaries and parliamentary boundaries differ the closest estimates shows the following.
These estimates show that while the national result of the referendum was relatively close, with 52% voting Leave and 48% voting Remain, a much larger majority of parliamentary seats voted to Leave – with 64% of seats in Great Britain voting Leave. (This is likely due to the uneven distribution of Remain voters, who tended to cluster in large cities, while Leave voters were more evenly spread.)

According to these estimates, around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave. All seats won by the Scottish National Party and the Green Party, and a majority of the seats won by the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru, voted to Remain.

When you factor in the uncertainty, the figures for how each party’s seats voted changes a bit. By this count, 62% of Conservative seats voted Leave, with 21% uncertain and 17% Remain. Labour’s seats, meanwhile, voted 56% Leave, 8% uncertain, and 36% Remain."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:12 AM

More "good news" :-(

Fresh Fruit And Veg Will Rot At The Border


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:45 AM

A good summary...

Phil Dunn
10 January 2018 · Bournemouth

UK: We want a unicorn
EU: We don't do unicorns. None of us have unicorns, There are no unicorns.

UK: But we promised unicorns and the people have spoken. We want unicorns
EU: That's not really our problem. There are no unicorns

UK: You're being unreasonable. We demand unicorns
EU: There are no unicorns

UK: You are bullying us with your outrageous demands!
EU: Eh? We just said there are no unicorns because... well... there are no unicorns.

UK: OK! We get your game. You're stalling! We're prepared to walk away without a unicorn you know! (Thinks: that'll show'em)
EU: There are no unicorns.

UK: You bastards! Nigel was right. You're out to destroy us. We'll go and speak to Donald instead. HE has unicorns!
EU: Errrrrmmm, there ARE no unicorns.

UK: That does it. This is our final position. We want unicorns...right now... gold plated... fluent in greek....ermmm.... or we're off!
EU: Are you still here? There are no unicorns.

UK: DAMMIT! What about a packet of crisps then?
EU: Sorry we're busy.

#StopBrexit #ExitBrexit #NoUnicorns


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 10:36 AM

brexit is the conclusion of 40 years of tory infighting yet we are all dragged into it. it is the failing of all our politicians to stand up to the racists and old empire neanderthals of the far-right reaches of the tories, ukip and the knuckle -draggers beyond.
it is their failing and ours too - who have never got it together to rid ourselves of the tories and their deadening, depressing mind set. seems there will always be a large minority who will worship/vote for the toffs who love to despise and ignore us. flag-waving dimwits who have no faith in themselves or their fellow citizens to run our countries without the divine touch of our betters.

this is all getting me down - really, who could have imagined the situation where the likes of farage and rees - mogg could be taken seriously? what has become of my country? what happens next? i'm sure for many people this is an intriguing political drama - but for those of us who have to face aggressive far-right leavers every day in the pub, round town and at work 'traitor!' 'you'll end up in hospital talking like that' - where racist, anti-muslimism is the default position of staff in my organisation, sadly it is a daily problem.

we have talked about moving back to scotland where the air is more breathable or maybe further afield - just now i see very little hope for little england . we have been let down by the politicians but there seems no sign of a fightback from the overwhelming majority of decent people who are being led down the river by this incompetent, self-serving government and the people who are happy to lie for them. it doesn't matter how many thousands of people will stroll down to trafalgar square occasionally - we seem to have accepted our fate and will take whatever chaos our leaders arrange for us.

- for fucksake!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 12:34 PM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:12 AM
"No-Deal Brexit: Fresh Fruit And Veg Will Rot At The Border, Supplier Warns
Industry faces "disaster" as only root vegetables may be on sale, and cost of ready meals could surge."


I do like the way the leftards pick up on every piece of negative news about Brexit confident that everything they read is accurate. It demonstrates very clearly that they do not even do five minutes research on the subject.
Fact: Fresh fruit 70% sourced from outside the EU.
       Vegetables 30% sourced from outside the EU

We also supply the bulk of Irelands fruit and vegetables and export vegetables to the EU. If EU food to the UK rots on the quayside it will no doubt join fleets of rusting german cars denied their export market. Eating out of season produce is a modern development.Locally sourced produce is probably a healthier option, and far fresher.

It simply ain't going to happen, the resulting glut in europe will bankrupt the producers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 12:48 PM

we have been let down by the politicians but there seems no sign of a fightback from the overwhelming majority of decent people who are being led down the river by this incompetent, self-serving government and the people who are happy to lie for them. it doesn't matter how many thousands of people will stroll down to trafalgar square occasionally

The statistics totally destroy your argument. Read my post: Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:44 PM

Terrible things facts!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 01:14 PM

Talking of being depressed, it is depressing that so many government speakers are now saying we have now told the EU what we want, as they have asked.

No you haven't. You have told them what you don't want (yet again.) Even if the backstop were reopened, and an 'alternative approach' to the backstop agreed, there is no certainty at all that a significant section of the Brexiteers do not simply say "We don't like that either." The Brady amendment says they will support May's deal if she gets a change but Rees-Mogg and others made sure it was noted in the debate they won't have to. Thus neatly demolishing the entire declared purpose of the amendment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 02:45 PM

Well said, Pete. It worries me too but I am hopeful that the backlash is begining. We see the types you mention everywhere (just look on here!) But more and more people seem to be standing up to the nonsense spouted. If enough of us take action we may finally see the back of the shower of self serving shits trying to govern us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 03:08 PM

"If enough of us take action we may finally see the back of the shower of self serving shits trying to govern us!"

Those ruling you have a mandate from a referendum, backed by a Parliamentary majority. The only nonsense spouted is your own and "taking action" sounds like revolution to me. But I am sure the counter-terrorism directorate keeps tabs on wannabe revolutionaries such as yourself and would nip any threatened action in the bud. This allows we law abiding citizens to sleep safe in our beds at night.

It is of course a public duty to report individuals threatening insurrection. After all it is but another form of terrorism!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 03:33 PM

Hey, just realised! Is Steve snowed in? Who can arrange an airdrop of Tuscan bean casserole and Nero D'Avolo to Cornwall? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 03:37 PM

I reckon he'll have plenty stockpiled, Dave, ready for when Jake Rich-Mong and his cronies get their way and we crash out on 29/3/19, and the shortages begin! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:02 PM

Actually, I am snowed in, and the bugger wasn't forecast - it was supposed to bloody rain!!! Don't worry, I have all my post-no-deal stockpiles to hand, though I forgot to buy a ton of air freshener to go with all these tins of baked beans...

That was a fantastic post, Pete. One of the great lies is that the referendum gave the government a mandate. It did not. There was nothing constitutionally mandating about that result, only the spouting of a brainless pig-molester. Like all referendums in this country it was advisory. And Theresa May only managed to obtain anything even remotely resembling a "mandate" by buying off a tawdry bunch of sectarian terrorist apologists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM

Lord Snooty and his pals? It would be like a comic strip it it wasn't so tragic!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:27 PM

One of the great lies is that the referendum gave the government a mandate

Mandate:1)    an official order or commission to do something.
       2)    the authority to carry out a policy, regarded as given
             by the electorate to a party or candidate that wins an
             election.

David Cameron has said the British people must "have their say" on Europe as he pledged an in/out referendum if the Conservatives win the election.

The prime minister said he wanted to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give people the "simple choice" between staying in under those new terms, or leaving the EU.
"It is time for the British people to have their say," he said. "It is time to settle this European question in British politics. I say to the British people: this will be your decision."

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
I rest my case!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:17 PM

I'll say this once and for all, not to any specific individual on this forum but to everyone listening. You can check it out until you are blue in the face for all I care, but this is the truth: ready?

Ahem.

The referendum was advisory. It has no constitutional force to create a mandate, no matter what any fly-by-night politician said or whatever any desperado in this forum tells you. That is the fact of tbe matter, the law of the land, and no amount of spin can change that. OK, maybe it doesn't make any bloody difference. But be assured that anyone saying that they are obeying the will of the people with no alternative, or pretending that the referendum gave them a mandate, is lying in their teeth. All constitutionally checkable and not up for alternative opinions. Cheers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:41 PM

All perfectly verifiable by checking the Research Paper to the Referendum Bill. The relevant section 4.1 states:-

"4.1 Types of referendum
This Private Member’s Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement on the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation is introduced. The UK does not have a written codified constitution which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike for example the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum are held is set out in its constitution."


I've emboldened the appropriate sentences.

The whole Research Paper to the Bill can be found here


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:46 PM

Thanks, John. You can't beat the actual facts of the matter, can you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:01 AM

"Terrible things, facts!" Steve. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:50 AM

Ahem.

The referendum was advisory.

and

"MPs have voted overwhelmingly in favour of Theresa May triggering Article 50, meaning the Prime Minister is on track to begin Brexit negotiations with Brussels in March.

By 498 to 114 - a majority of 384 - MPs backed allowing the bill to progress to the next, more detailed legislative stage.

Ten Labour junior shadow ministers and three whips, who are supposed to enforce party discipline, voted against triggering Article 50 in revolt against Mr Corbyn."

To quote your own words:"what most of them(MPs) actually do (give in to realpolitik) is wholly consistent. ..... why both parties "supported brexit" after the referendum. Any party opposing the outcome of the vote would be toast."

To quote myself(again)From: Iains - PM
Date: 14 Jan 19 - 06:20 AM

There is a certain inconsistency in your arguments:
You say they(mps) work for the best interests of the country ...chunder, chunder, chunder....
But!
you also say:"Well the one and only reason that the Tory referendum, then Article 50, were ratified is that the steamroller was already in full flow and that any party which voted against either would have been toast. We call it realpolitik."

seems to me you want to have your toast and eat it, and furthermore accept when it comes to survival Labour MPs would sell their aunts!

For a man that argues the sins of nitpicking you obviously hope your dual standards will not be commented on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM

While there is some value in understanding how we got into this mess, especially if there is another referendum, that is far less important than where we go from here.

There seems to be a widespread belief that we are far from adequately prepared for a no deal. Since both sides seem to be assuming the other will give up in the end, a no deal is looking quite likely. There seems to be a chance that May will ask for an extension that is too short to achieve anything in the way of preventing a no deal, or not ask at all. If the time is too short the only agreement in place says only one extension is allowed. However, that does seem to be to be something that could change. An email from my MP shows he is thinks he can decide what is in the best interests of the EU, even though it of obviously the EU that decides what it thinks that is, and disagree with him.

Predicting what will happen next assumes people are acting coherently. So at the moment such predictions are impossible, I fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

"An email from my MP shows he is thinks he can decide what is in the best interests of the EU."

It will be an education to see how he is rewarded,come the next election!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:26 AM

Let me elaborate, as assuming UK MPs know what the EU regards as in its best interests is a common failure. They say that the trade loss, or the loss of the 36billion or whatever means the EU will give on on the end. But it is the EU that will decide. The 36billion is a one off payment. Damage to the single market that May arise is a recurring cost. It is perfectly rationale for the EU to decide the 36billion is not worth what they - not the uk - judge the recurring costs to be.

And this is only talking trade. There are other factors that the EU regard as important and the UK cannot decide they are unimportant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM

This fairly well sums up the current situation! (See what I did there?) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:44 AM

What voters in the UK voted overwhelmingly against was the creation of a federal europe, and destruction of the nation state. Two world wars were fought over attempted destruction of the nation state by German domination.
Federalism and the eradication nationhood is a well documented aim of the EU,publicly stated by both Merkel and Macron. If avoiding such a fate has a cost=so be it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:30 AM

It is striking how Brexiteers have moved from 'it's all sunny uplands'to 'we - ie you whether you voted for, or against, or didn't vote - will bear any short term (undefined)
costs (unquantified) because I think we are replaying the second world war'


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:43 AM

Not breaking my oath not to involve with this poster but I think it worth noting that far from "overwhelmingly" this ludicrous decision was taken on a narrow majority which represented a minority of the British people as a whole - 'bout time this shit about 'the wishes of the British people' was put to bed once and for all
If what they wanted came into this at all they would be asked to reconfirm their choice now we have a government that cannot agree with its own party and has to bribe a sectarian party to get anything through Parliament, a people divided, a UK on the brink of fragmentation and major British firms doing a runner to continue filling their coffers by manufacturing their "widgets" elsewhere, including the Europe they supported leaving.
Let's see how many voters support Brexcrement now the implications have become clear - no chance with these 'democrats' at the helm
It is utter bollocks to claim that the voters who did support the decision to leave voted for or against against any of this.... none of these flights of fancy have ever been claimed to feature in their decision
Getting rid of Johnny Foreigner to "protect our jobs" is the most likely contender for the cause of the decision - everything else is merely an expression of the opinions of those who put it forward
There, that's my clearing the phlegm from my throat done for the day
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:59 AM

Quite so, Jim. Everyone, leaver or remainer, is entitled to say why they voted as they did. They are not entitled to assume that everyone - or indeed anyone - who voted the same way agrees with those reasons. For example, it seems likely to me that a big section of every election or referendum votes to "give those in power a good kicking" and nothing more, but I not assert it because I don't have the evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:36 AM

it seems likely to me that a big section of every election or referendum votes to "give those in power a good kicking" and nothing more, but I not assert it because I don't have the evidence.

Well I do, and you are wrong!

"The most frequently cited reasons for voting Leave were Sovereignty/EU bureaucracy’ and ‘Immigration’ (both mentioned by around 30% of those who said they intended to vote Leave). By far the most frequently cited
reason for voting Remain was ‘Economy’ (mentioned by nearly 40% of those who said they intended to vote
Remain)."

CSI’s data
Interestingly,
‘to teach British politicians a lesson’ has by far the lowest average rank, being ranked last by a full 88% of
Leave voters.
This contradicts the widespread claim that Brexit was a ‘protest vote’: i.e., that people voted
Leave as a way of venting deep-seated grievances about things such as inequality, austerity and social
liberalism, rather than because they opposed Britain’s membership of the EU per se.

"Getting rid of Johnny Foreigner to "protect our jobs" is the most likely contender for the cause of the decision - everything else is merely an expression of the opinions of those who put it forward

Nonsense!!!!
The most important reasons for voting Leave was: ‘The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK’, which was ranked first by 49% of Leave voters.

A crying shame that the more rabid remainiacs here have nothing but false arguments and bile to refute well researched facts. Hardly surprising many threads get closed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM

And now the Gibraltar problem raises its head again. All sorted in the Withdrawal Agreement, but if it is reopened, it is reopened for everybody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:41 AM

While we're at it I think a point our Guido Brexiteer made some time ago is worth a close examination
"Production goes to the least cost base. Making uncompetitive widgets just creates unemployment and bankruptcies."
This is of course perfectly true and the implications are that given the aim of standing on our own two feet, the only way Britain industry can survive in the present circumstances is by forcing wages down below the level of its competitors - textiles lap-tops, mobile phones and other electronic goods all have hit the headlines, but I'm sure there are many more   
SLAVE CONDITIONS
If our Guido Gatherer is right, these are the conditions that will need to be imposed on British workers - and as Maggie silenced what little voice workers had in their lives, they'll have to learn to bend down and take it
In the case of the industries we no longer have, Britain will have to buy wherever it is cheapest - I believe the DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC of the CONGO might be a good source for our coal, but it might cost us a bit to keep the refugees from there out - as promised !
There - we've heard it from the horses's mouth
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:56 AM

I think the laddie above is confusing sovereignty with globalism.
globalism(Noun) An ideology based on the belief that people, goods and information ought to be able to cross national borders unfettered.

    A socio-economic system dedicated to free trade and free access to markets.
It has upsides and downsides.
There is no question that globalization has been a good thing for many developing countries who now have access to our markets and can export cheap goods. Globalization has also been good for Multi-national corporations and Wall Street. But globalization has not been good for working people (blue or white collar) and has led to the continuing deindustrialization of the west.

Labor can move from country to country to market their skills. True, but this can cause problems with the existing labor and downward pressure on wages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM

Arron Banks and Leave.EU fined £120,000 by ICO

When will people get that the leave campaign won by lying and cheating? If the remain camp would have resorted to illegal use of personal data the result would have been different. Of course our resident apologists for conmen, spivs and cheats will find 'good' excuses...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM

Well, if I am wrong, I am wrong. But if you read what I said, I did not claim that "giving a kicking" was the major or even a highly significant one: I said it was likely to be a big section. 12% seems a fairly big section to me. Of course, I am also not claiming those 12% put it in first place either.

But there is another complication common to all polls. What people say they do and what they actually do often differs. Polls often under represent the Conservative vote in Labour strongholds, because people there there don't like to admit they are Tory. You get the same effect in reverse in Tory areas. In a survey like that people tend to give an acceptable answer rather than the real answer. So the poll gives some information, but like all polls it is mistake to read too much certainty into it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of "EU bureaucracy/sovereignty" was completely ignorant both of how the EU operates and of how little "sovereignty" we gave up. We have a big say in what laws and regulations are passed or rejected and we have the veto. The vast bulk of EU law is agreed by common consensus without the need to vote (though the vote is always available if required). If we wish to trade with the EU post-brexit we will still have to abide by a large number of regulations, most of which we have no need to argue against but all of which we will have no say in. On top of that, just wait to see the bureaucracy and the sacrifice of sovereignty when we are obliged to do deals with China and the US.

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of immigration is a racist.

But the bottom line is that everyone was asked nothing more than to put a cross against one of two simplistic choices. Not a word, not a reason, not an opinion. A cross.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM

I console myself with the sure and certain knowledge that the fools who allowed themselves to be conned by the deceit of the Leave campaign will be just as hurt by BrexShit as those of us who had the presence of mind to see it for what it was, and who took the sensible decision to vote Remain.

And, when the Leave-voters start bellyaching when the pain begins, it will give me great pleasure, not to mention a bloody good laugh, to say, "Don't blame me, you voted for it, now enjoy taking it up the arse - you've got what you asked for".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:39 AM

They will just blame remainers, the EU and, of course, Jeremy Corbyn, BWM. Everyone's fault but their own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:45 AM

If you look at the BBC "Have Your Say" and equivalents, you will see plenty doing that already, Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of immigration is a racist.

Is that fact? whimsy , opinion or pure boll**ks?

You do say the most ridiculous things.

I notice blaming the russians has totally lost credibility for causing the leave vote majority.


When will people get that the leave campaign won by lying and cheating? If the remain camp would have resorted to illegal use of personal data the result would have been different. Of course our resident apologists for conmen, spivs and cheats will find 'good' excuses...

I dol ike a well reasoned argument. Yours, like those of many remainiacs, starts with "Once upon a time!"
Once again the facts do not support your argument! Worth remembering that this(data leak) was non-political advertising after the referendum – meanwhile the Lib Dems are still under investigation for selling data to the Remain campaign during the referendum…

and we had best not talk about Livingstone, or Jeremy Corbyn in 2012 saying that “yes of course” Israel may engage in “creating a false flag event” to start a war with Iran, or Corbynites succeeded in seizing control of Chuka’s local Labour Party in Streatham last night, or Fiona Onasanya. To name but a few!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:57 AM

Very good points by Gary Younge in the Guardian

Many working-class leavers were not motivated by self-interest, but by values

Clip from the article

The UK making its own rules came a close second out of four (immigration was first) in the reasons why people voted leave.

It is a shame the the two top values they were voting for (Immigration and Sovereignty) will not be affected in the slightest by leaving the EU. But then again, I suppose nobody told them that. Oh, hang on, no one told me either. I wonder how I knew?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM

I think analysis of data from the Centre for Social Investigation has more credibility than a gruniard hack.

It is a shame the the two top values they were voting for (Immigration and Sovereignty) will not be affected in the slightest by leaving the EU.
Is there some part of leave you have a problem with understanding?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:30 AM

I have looked a little more into that survey and it has some severe technical flaws, of which the most serious is they suggested the reasons for leaving. But it is perfectly possible the reason for voting Leave was not any of their choices. I have said before that the thing that tool me closest to voting Leave was how Greece was dealt with. There was a problem, certainly, but there were other ways of sorting out the issue.

Similarly, the thing which would make me most inclined to vote Leave at the moment is the rise of the alt-right across Europe, and its potential effect if enough MEPs were elected. But even that would be a complicated balance, because I would have to make judgements on how the separation of powers within the EU constrains that, for example, compared to an unconstrained UK government. I would still vote remain, I believe, but it would be a complicated process. And not something the "choice of four reasons" from the survey would encompass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM

Even so, DMcG, of the 4 choices presented the top two were Immigration and Sovereignty. We had control of both with the EU. The lie that the EU controlled both our laws and our borders was well established.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM

Even so, DMcG, of the 4 choices presented the top two were Immigration and Sovereignty. We had control of both with the EU.
No, we didn't/don't have control of immigration as the EU insists on "freedom of movement". Once we leave (if it ever happens) we will be able to put restrictions on those who enter the UK from the EU.
Otherwise why are some of the Leavers here complaining that leaving will restrict the ability of them (or their families) to move to, and work in the EU?

Some consistency in the discussion would help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM

No, we didn't/don't have control of immigration as the EU insists on "freedom of movement"

Yes we do.

Firstly, non EU immigration has always been higher than EU immigration. That will not alter one iota.

Secondly, the rights of the UK to control it's borders are not undermined by the freedom of movement for EU citizens. I suggest you read the following to get the facts right.

Can the UK Control Its Borders if It Remains in the EU?

The complaint about restricting the rights to work and live in the EU by UK citizens is still valid as leaving the EU will make it more difficult. Not impossible, just difficult.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM

"Yes we do. "
'Course we do - there has never been such a thing as 'uncontrolled immigration' - that its another of the Faragist lies
THIS IS HOW THE STATE CONTROLS IMMIGRATION
Nigel is as bad as the worst when it comes to refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis
Still no comment Nigel - thought not!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM

I can't help looking at these things through maths and formal logic.

Immigration is made up of two parts A and B. The declared government goal was that A+B must be less than C. Whether you can control A or not does not prevent the goal being reached providing (i) you can control B to any level you desire and (ii) A is less than C.

So if the immigration from the EU could not be restricted (which it could, but let's overlook that detail), it does not prevent the UK controlling its immigration to (almost) any level if it so wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM

From the gruniard link above:
Theresa May, then home secretary, proudly stated in 2013 that her aim was to make the country a “hostile environment” for illegal immigrants. Since then the government has introduced ever more aggressive and intrusive checks.
Seems a spiffing idea to me, otherwise every Tom Dick and terrorist wouldbe invading our shores.Of course we never fell for that Schengen zone dreamed up by the globalists, that has spent the last couple of years unravelling.
In Jimmie's quaint world we would be demanding reparations off Hengist and Horsa, and William the conqueror, to name but a fanciful few.
We have a very thorough system for sifting those entitled to enter and those that are not. If the rest of the EU took the same care we would not have illegal immigrants crossing the channel in cockleshell boats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM

"The Financial Times has truly outdone itself with this unintentionally hilarious article from Economics Editor Chris Giles complaining that the British economy has actually been doing too well since the referendum. Which is an interesting position for supposedly the world’s leading financial newspaper to take…

Not content with just being mystified by the fact that people failed to do as they were told in the referendum, the FT is now bemused as to why the markets haven’t done as the FT wants either. Giles bemoans the fact that “relatively benign economics has emboldened politicians to harden their Brexit demands and refuse to compromise” and declares that “it is now too late for markets or the UK economy to exercise much discipline on Britain’s politics before the scheduled exit date of March 29”. Translation: it’s too late for a financial or economic crash to scare people into doing what the FT says they they should do…"

Don't you just luv it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM

Doncha just know you have 'em by the short and curlies when they starts talking down to you again
As predictable as Brexit being a fuck up - every time
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 01:58 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM
"Yes we do. "
'Course we do - there has never been such a thing as 'uncontrolled immigration' - that its another of the Faragist lies
THIS IS HOW THE STATE CONTROLS IMMIGRATION
Nigel is as bad as the worst when it comes to refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis
Still no comment Nigel - thought not!

Jim Carroll


That must be a record. ask a question (almost) and complain, in the same thread, that there has been no response. I have not 'refused to comment'.

Jim,
Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM

"Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond."
Sorry Nigel - got tired of trying to get you to respond to anything ]
If you can'rt see a connection to what you said about uncontrolled immigration and the link I posted there doesn't seem a lot of point trying again
I don't agree with much you say but I would like a Brexiteer to make a case for his beliefs on


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:15 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM
"Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond."
Sorry Nigel - got tired of trying to get you to respond to anything ]
If you can'rt see a connection to what you said about uncontrolled immigration and the link I posted there doesn't seem a lot of point trying again
I don't agree with much you say but I would like a Brexiteer to make a case for his beliefs on


Sorry, that still makes FA sense. Nor does it give me any clue about something you have asked me to which I have not responded.

If you are unable to actually ask a question, and direct it to me, do not be surprised if I do not answer it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:30 PM

Ok then, Nigel. Nice clear question. How will exiting the EU give us back our sovereignty or reduce immigration?

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval and the borders have always been under our control. No matter what Farage, Johnson, Murdoch or Rothermere have told you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM

Ok then, Nigel. Nice clear question. How will exiting the EU give us back our sovereignty or reduce immigration?

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval and the borders have always been under our control. No matter what Farage, Johnson, Murdoch or Rothermere have told you.


No, the EU could pass laws without our approval. With the exception of certain items on which we retained a 'veto', the passing of laws was by a majority vote (or, sometimes a 'qualified majority' vote).
We did not (and, currently, do not) have control of our borders. We are required to allow free passage of EU members across our borders. We can only check that they are actually EU members. We even allowed this immediately for certain 'accession' states (where other states delayed the acceptance of these persons).

Clearly your question is based on a misunderstanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM

I cannot be certain of this, but I perceive that much anti immigration is against people who look different that is people with other skin colours than "white anglo saxons"

Given that most of these immigrants come not from Europe but the Indian subcontinent leaving the EU alone will not alter this.

Given that at any time in the past 50 or 100 years the UK government could have addressed this "problem" leaving the EU does not change it one iota.

I have heard it said, quite vocally, in recent months that we should repatriate people. Well lets start with the Angles and the Saxons, then the Jutes, the Scandinavians, the French, the Hugeonauts, the Irish, the Eastern European, the Afro Carribean, and then the Chinese and Asians. That would possibly means there where about 1000 people (or less) remaining in the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM

I cannot be certain of this, but I perceive that much anti immigration is against people who look different that is people with other skin colours than "white anglo saxons"

Given that most of these immigrants come not from Europe but the Indian subcontinent leaving the EU alone will not alter this.

Given that at any time in the past 50 or 100 years the UK government could have addressed this "problem" leaving the EU does not change it one iota.

I have heard it said, quite vocally, in recent months that we should repatriate people. Well lets start with the Angles and the Saxons, then the Jutes, the Scandinavians, the French, the Hugeonauts, the Irish, the Eastern European, the Afro Carribean, and then the Chinese and Asians. That would possibly means there where about 1000 people (or less) remaining in the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:35 PM

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval

Must be an aborigine in the dreamtime!

Since 1996, the UK had failed to block a single proposal placed in front of the Council of Ministers from becoming EU law.

The UK had opposed 72 measures which went onto the statute book.

"DO YOU remember the lively debate in the Houses of Parliament about new laws to regulate noise from lawnmowers? Do you recall your MP seeking your views about measures to oblige homeowners to have their properties assessed for energy efficiency? Or reading the Government's consultation on the design of desk lamps?
   That is because they are among hundreds of laws which have been passed in the past 20 years without any meaningful public debate in this country. They have been forced upon us by EU directives which are stitched up by the European Commission, rubberstamped by the European Parliament and then ordered to be incorporated into British law.

Now, the think tank Open Europe has totted up the cost to the UK economy of the most burdensome EU laws. It comes to a staggering £27.4billion a year


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:43 PM

Brexit has been examined mathematically and the proof has been solved
at long last by super computers and geniuses.


Brexit will continue to expand and accelerate as a phenomenon and a problem!


It is due to negative pressure, not positive pressure, as Dark Matters do


For Mathematicians - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwYSWAlAewc

btw
The USA was very fortunate that Albert Einstein exited Germany. It led to total victory over the Axis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:53 PM

Doncha just know you have 'em by the short and curlies when they starts talking down to you again
As predictable as Brexit being a fuck up - every time


As predictable as you destroying threads on a regular basis by introducing your pet hobbyhorses that have zilch to do with the thread.

If you wish to dive off at a tangent why not discuss daisies. At least that is a subject you may have some slight knowledge of, unlike most of what you pontificate on..

For example:
"refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis. This has jackshit to do with brexit." Fact:The world's top five major arms exporters are the United States, Russia, Germany, France and China. Together, they account for 74 percent of the total volume of exports. Talking about Britain in such a context merely displays your rabid anglophobia(again!)
If you want to babble on about it open your own thread, and then you can talk to yourself

I do not talk down to you. It would be a waste of my valuable time. I talk over you, I find it more productive. Conversations with cabbages are somewhat sterile.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:34 PM

Nigel, you are simply trying to perpetuate the myth that unelected EU commissioners force laws on us. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most EU laws and regulations are passed by common consensus among the 28 states and they are generally good laws that no-one would wish to quarrel with. In the event of disagreement, votes in the European Parliament may be held, and there are various levels of veto available, particularly for larger and more influential states such as the UK. Very few laws have got through without UK agreement, approximately three percent in the last twenty years, and you would be very hard-pressed to tell me about any of real game-changing significance. In a club of 28 that is very good going. And UK domestic law is our business and ours alone, as with all other EU states. I've said all this so many times on this forum and all of it is checkable, but do feel free to stick to your leavers' catechism of received wisdom.

When we leave the EU and have to rely more on deals with the US and China, just watch how we will have to accept different standards, usually lower, without a say in the matter. What price sovereignty and taking control then, Nigel, especially when you consider that we'll also be taking rules from the EU with no say there either?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 05:17 PM

It's no good presenting facts, Steve. I have already posted the truth about so called free movement within the EU and that was ignored. Maybe you will do better with the facts about the passing of laws but I seriously doubt it.

Never mind, eh. There are some advantages to leaving the UK government unfettered by EU human rights legislation and going back to the good old days of empire. We can start to shit on all our neighbours again ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 05:40 PM

We are required to allow free passage of EU members across our borders.

Seeing as you obviously missed it in the link I posted, here are the relevant facts.

These rights do not undermine the UK’s ability to control its borders, for three principal reasons.
First, the largest category of migrants to the UK come from outside the EU, and are not entitled to rely on EU laws on freedom of movement.[3] The UK’s ability to restrict entry to this group is unaffected by its membership of the EU.
Secondly, whereas many Member States have replaced individual controls with a common policy at their common frontier (known as the Schengen Area),[4] the UK chose to retain its right to independent border control and is entitled to check the identity of every individual entering the country.[5]
Thirdly, EU law does not provide nationals from other EU Member States with an unlimited right to enter or remain in the UK. Most importantly, the right to live in the UK without any conditions or formalities only lasts for three months.[6] In addition, the right is subject to limitations “on grounds of public policy, public security or public health”.[7] Specifically, the UK retains the right to restrict the freedom of movement and residence of EU citizens and their family members, where their personal conduct represents “a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society”[8] and the home Member State of any expelled EU nationals must allow those nationals to re-enter their territory.[9]


Got it? It really is simple. We control our own borders already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM

Thing is, Dave, for many years, migration from non-EU countries has exceeded migration from the EU yet there has been little fuss about it, little attempt to curb it nor any attempt to make it a political issue. Migration from the EU, which has always been extremely beneficial to this country and which almost never involves immigrants claiming benefits (the opposite, in fact, as most EU immigrants make a net contribution in terms of paying their taxes), has become talismanic for leavers. It's dishonest, disreputable and utterly unfair to those thousands of EU citizens who make a genuine contribution to this country, unlike some of those Tory off-shorers, non-doms and general corporate parasites who are about to cash in on brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:13 PM

You're casting pearls before swine, chaps. Don't waste the time and effort, the truth will become abundantly and horribly clear when May has driven us over the cliff-edge. Although, of course, you'll never get the Leave-voters to admit they fell for the BrexShit-Bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:13 PM

Actually in some ways going back to "the good old days of empire" could have what would be seen by its enthusiasts as highly unfortunate. In those days there were no legal controls on unlimited freedom of entry into the United Kingdom on the part of the entire population of all parts of that empire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:44 AM

True, Kevin, but at least we could view the immigrants from Empire nations as lesser human beings ;-)

John. Nail on the head. They will never admit it and that is only human nature. It is very difficult to admit that you have been conned as some seem to think it indicates that they have been foolish. I can assure all you brexiteers out there who are now realising that you were indeed conned that there is no shame in it. You were conned by the best, who have had years of practice at leading the public up the garden path and had the weight of the popular press behind them. Let it go now. Admit that there is a problem. It is the first step to recovery :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:06 AM

From the BBC - an indication of where we're headed when those wonderful post-BrexShit trade deals we've been promised begin to materialise. God help us!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119?SThisFB


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:14 AM

Yea but weer taking are cuntry back...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:19 AM

LOL! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:32 AM

😂 😂 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM

Nigel
I'm not a primary school teacher and never want to be one
I have put a series of situations about refugeeism and immigration
I have explained why I believe Britain is part of causing the problem and a moral responsibility to deal with it in a humane manner, rather than keeping those suffering from problems we have caused out
I'll put it as simply as I can
Refugees are fleeing from wars we have helped cause largely by our need for oil and our desire to keep countries in 'safe hands' for our own political interests
We helped arm Assad and other despots at a time when the Syrian people, as part as the Arab Spring Protests, were trying to improve conditions in their own countries rather than be forced to leave.
We did so knowing full well that the Assad regime had a track record going back nearly a decade, of rounding up suspected opponents, imprisoning them, torturing them and "disappearing" many thousands of them (Amnesty presented years of evidence that this was still happening)
Britain licenced riot control equipment - tear gas, armed crowd control vehicles and other equipment which helped Assad fill his torture chambers and detention centres
It later transpired that he was sold chemicals by British firms capable of being used in the manufacture of the horrific weapons that were used on Syrian civilians   
At the height of the Homs massacres (possibly carried out by snipers trained with the reported shipment of sniper ammunition licences by Britain), some of Assad's leaders fled their country and begged Britain to take action against him, specifically by seizing his London based property and attempting to bear influence on his regime through Assad's English born wife
Nothing was done, the British Parliament voted not to become involved, and Assad's Representative, his Brother-in-law continued to enter and leave Briain as easily as he did Harrods, on Assad's business
The Syrian protests escalated into civil war and the absence of Western support led to the creation of a massive terrorist threat in the form of Isis.

Can you think of a single reason why refugees from that horrific situation we have helped to create should be refused entry into the counties who helped create it - Britain having been a major player?

The "control of immigration" that the British leaders are now boasting they are carrying out was a major feature in making Brexit the catastrophic threat it has now escalated into

If you have any evidence (other than Iain's "deny everything inconvenient" approach) that any of this is untrue, feel free to present it
Refusal to do so makes you a supporter of it.
Your starter for ten
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM

Oh Dear! here we go again, more of little jimmies lies.
At the height of the Homs massacres (possibly carried out by snipers trained with the reported shipment of sniper ammunition licences by Britain),

This is the at least the fifth time you have raised this pack of lies.
For the second time now you have qualified it by "possibly"
Teribus refuted your claims most admirably a long while back. Why keep raising it over and over and over again? Your anglophobia is getting rather boring.
Why not try posting facts? you may find it a novel experience. It would certainly be unique!
Your views on Arab Spring are naive to say the least. Try looking at it in the following context:False Flag

IT is time you woke up as to how the real world works. It is not a pretty chocolate box scene.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 05:49 AM

See my point fellers
His mentor, Teribus went though all the excuses - a lie, the licence was drawn up but never issued, it was rescinded, the order was far too early to have been used by the snipers, the bullets were the wrong size for use by the Syrian Army..... and several more.
His companion at the time in response to the fact that Britain was licensing such exports , ""all you can come up with is a few sniper rifles" - (his mistake)
The order for this ammunition is still on line yet these people continue to deny it   

Statement by Government Trade minister at the time
"We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records", he told a crossparty group of senior MPs. "We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that"."
HORSES MOUTH CONFESSION

Keep out of this Iains - it's for the adults
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

Bloody Nora, Jim, IGNORE HIM! Cut him dead!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM

I am Steve
I just used his crassness as an opportunity to underline my point about Britain being implicated in the refugee crisis up to their sordid arses (just as I am using your posting now)
I was brought up with the philosophy that "if a point's woth making, it's worth making as often as possible"
Done and dusted, I think but thanks for the reminder
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 06:40 AM

If he rattles on in his usual manner but with us totally ignoring him we can get rid of him. But not if we succumb to temptation and respond. That's been proven to be bloody useless in any case for a long time now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 07:18 AM

Any reaction will have him creaming his pants so just don't do it, Jim. Even talking about him rather than to him is fanning his flames so this is my last self defeating post. Complete blank is the only way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 07:24 AM

Meanwhile, quite number of Brexiteers are admitting the possibilities of an extension, most recently Rees-Mogg. At the moment they are saying it is only for sorting out stuff after a deal is agreed, but that looks like a start of movement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM

The knock -on effect of the Brexiteer's use of populism is getting a little panic-making
First this fiasco, then the election of Trump (and a threatened conflict with North Korea), then the rise of neo-Nazism in Europe, Ireland could have gotten a racist President had not good sense and humanity prevailed....
Now we have the possible reopening of the Arms Race with Russia
I do hope they've forgotten to wind up the nuclear clock!!

" but with us totally ignoring him we can get rid of him."
I very much doubt it Steve
He is now using threads as a soap-box for his ideas (sic) and while he can he doesn't need us.
I ignore him because he says nothing I want to respond to but that shouldn't stop me (or anybody) using him to underline the crassness of Brexit
Will keep it down to minimum (off for a few days tomorrow - maybe by the time I return he will fall victim to Betjeman's "friendly bombs" along with Slough
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 10:24 AM

"Yea but weer taking are cuntry back..."

Good to see the remainiacs display their erudition and good taste.
Perhaps they should be named collectively as coprolaliacs, or better still banned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM

there are so many hundreds of posts on the 3 threads that urge us to look away from the forest (or consider a few trees in a couple of other irrelevant forests) and examine tiny details on the trees within it. it can be vaguely interesting to be sidetracked this way but then you stand back and look at the big, scary, pointless thing as a whole - and think.......them tory bastards have really screwed us this time - eeeek!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 12:50 PM

.them tory bastards have really screwed us this time - eeeek!

There is many a slip twixt tongue and lip, and as yet, no arias from the fat lady! Alas alack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM

Just announced that Nissan are to pull Production of the new X-Trail SUV from their Sunderland plant, despite assurances given to them by the government in 2016 (source: BBC News).

Clearly, Nissan havevrealised that 'assurances' from May and her bunch of incompetents are worth Sweet FA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:19 PM

I feel awful for saying it but the fact that Sunderland voted firmly for brexit seems to have a certain element of karma...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:34 PM

Some of us have been warning of such things for the past two and a half years.

I take absolutely no pleasure in saying I told you so.

This is about the livelihoods of about 7,000 poeple who work at the Nissan plant located in a very deprived area.

I strongly suspect that this is the shape of things to come.

I wonder if our Brexiteers can cast a good spin of this ..........

....... but I doubt it, they tend not to respond to direct news.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM

The history of these threads is that they will say firms expand and contract all the time so there is no evidence it has anything to do with Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:22 PM

2018/10/30

St. Petersburg, Russia — Nissan has started production of the new X-Trail crossover SUV at its St. Petersburg plant.

The X-Trail is Nissan's best-selling model worldwide and the key upgrades are a more contemporary exterior design, upgraded suspension, greater cabin refinement and additional innovative new Nissan Intelligent Mobility technologies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:29 PM

This is about the livelihoods of about 7,000 poeple who work at the Nissan plant located in a very deprived area.

More project fear. There are no publicised plans to either cease production of existing models, or layoff workers.

Be nice if you did a bit of fact checking first. But that would not leave you too much to discuss, would it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 05:09 PM

I am reminded of the "Yes Minister" script which describes the four stage strategy followed by the Foreign Office: First, "Nothing's going to happen"; Second, "Something may be going to happen, but we should do nothing about it"; Third, "Maybe we should do something, but there's nothing we can do"; and Fourth, "Maybe there was something we could've done, but it's too late now".

It seems that applies to things like the Sunderland reports.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 04:22 AM

Meanwhile back to the real world, not the imaginary one dreamed up by the kidergarten remainiac cabal here.

From the Torygraph and you gov:
Jeremy Corbyn’s popularity is at an all-time low because voters believe he is “playing politics” with Brexit and can not be trusted.

The Labour leader’s approval rating, which reached its peak in mid-2017 after the general election, has been on the slide ever since, hit by his failure to set out a clear policy on Brexit, and by the anti-Semitism controversy which has dogged his party for years.

A poll by YouGov found that voters who had changed their minds about Mr Corbyn described him as weak, indecisive and out of touch.

Not what even the most deluded here would call a ringing endorsement!
It seems Joe Public is on the money, razor sharp, and staunchly Brexit.
Fine fellows all!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 04:56 AM

Good comment by Andrew Rawnsley following Oliver Letwin's speech in the house last week (in the event of problems after Brexit)

The Conservatives will own a nightmare Brexit and it will not just be Remain voters who will take their revenge on the Tory party. It will also be Leave voters. If Brexit goes horribly wrong, Leave voters are not going to find fault with themselves for being suckered by a bogus prospectus, unrealisable promises and a red bus emblazoned with a lie. Leave voters are going to blame the Tories for betraying them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

Nice cartoon in the Sunday Times today shows Tess the Tosser signing for a delivery of a dozen crates of champagne and telling the delivery man - "no, I'm definitely not stockpiling - they're to celebrate when we win"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 06:21 AM

Seems the Sunday times shows more contact with reality than the remainiacs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 09:32 AM

Nissan has confirmed it is abandoning plans to build a new model of one of its flagship vehicles at its Sunderland plant, as it warned that uncertainty over Brexit is affecting businesses."

Looks like those posting before were in the real world after all

Now for "Yes Minister" stage 3 or 4, I suspect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 12:43 PM

(Nissan)It acknowledged in a letter to workers: “Today’s announcement will be interpreted by a lot of people as a decision related to Brexit.” the X-Trail is produced in Japan currently and Nissan said keeping production there would reduce “upfront investment costs”.

“Nissan’s announcement is a blow to the sector and the region, as this was to be a further significant expansion of the site and the workforce.The company has confirmed that no jobs will be lost,

Calling the decision “very disappointing news” for Sunderland and the north-east”, the Unite union said it blamed Brexit uncertainty for the decision, along with the government’s “mishandling” of the transition away from diesel.


Nissan said plans over other future models destined for the Sunderland plant – the next-generation Juke and Qashqai – were unaffected by the announcement.

Someone (remainiacs) cannot read or are doing a gyroscopic spin of epic proportions and reporting false News.

Awkward things facts!!

It is the union attributing the decision to brexit, and what does a union know about the investment plans of a Nissan?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 01:08 PM

Iains: you know I am one of the few people still prepared to talk to you on this this thread but, like Keith (RIP) in times past, you make it difficult. Nissan said:

"The continued uncertainty around the UK’s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future.”

If you do not think there is any connection between Brexit and our future relationship with the EU, I wonder what you do think.

The final paragraph or so was nothing but invective.

I said quite plainly earlier that I do not like to ignore people, but if it comes to it I will. Kindly stick to the facts as you see them and drop the insults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM

Gianluca de Ficchy, the Japanese firm's Europe chairman, said that the decision had been taken for "business reasons" affected by rules on diesel engines and reduced sales.

The announcement that the X-Trail would be built in Japan was made in a letter to staff that followed a day of political rows between Brexit supporters and opponents over the reason for one of Wearside's largest employers reneging on a 2016 decision to build the car there.

In the letter Mr de Ficchy said: "Today's announcement will be interpreted by a lot of people as a decision related to Brexit.

"We have taken this decision for the business reasons I've explained but, clearly, the uncertainty around the UK's future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future."


I prefer the stated reasons given by Nissan's Gianluca de Ficchy, the Japanese firm's Europe chairman.
obviously brexit creates uncertainty but he gives 3 clear reasons for retaining manufacture elsewhere,
1)The investment required would be considerable.
2)Actual and impending legislation on diesel engines
3)Delining sales

It is newspapers and the union attributing the sole reason to brexit.
I prefer to believe the information given first hand by the company that made the decision.

The Herald six hours ago using my same data comes out with the following headline:
Nissan chief attacks 'Brexit uncertainty' as company confirms new vehicle will be built in Japan not UK.

If that headline has not been spun to the point of being outright lies then tell me what I have misunderstood.

You must point what you mean by invective.(insulting, abusive, or highly critical language.)
I will accept highly critical, but I would regard that as a compliment given for well researched responses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 03:37 PM

From the Sky news site. Not noted for any remain bias.

Gianluca de Ficchy said the decision was a mixture of investment needed for emissions regulations and reduced sales forecasts but added uncertainty over Brexit had also played a part.

Repeated verbatim with no need for further comment.

The article also states

Nissan has told staff in Sunderland the company will not make the new X-Trail there, as previously planned.

The production was previously planned for Sunderland and it no longer is. The European division chief states quite clearly that brexit "played a part" in the decision to move production. Brexit has played a part in loosing work in Sunderland. QED.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 06:02 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM

Nigel
I'm not a primary school teacher and never want to be one
I have put a series of situations about refugeeism and immigration
I have explained why I believe Britain is part of causing the problem and a moral responsibility to deal with it in a humane manner, rather than keeping those suffering from problems we have caused out
I'll put it as simply as I can
Refugees are fleeing from wars we have helped cause largely by our need for oil and our desire to keep countries in 'safe hands' for our own political interests
We helped arm Assad and other despots at a time when the Syrian people, as part as the Arab Spring Protests, were trying to improve conditions in their own countries rather than be forced to leave.
We did so knowing full well that the Assad regime had a track record going back nearly a decade, of rounding up suspected opponents, imprisoning them, torturing them and "disappearing" many thousands of them (Amnesty presented years of evidence that this was still happening)
Britain licenced riot control equipment - tear gas, armed crowd control vehicles and other equipment which helped Assad fill his torture chambers and detention centres
It later transpired that he was sold chemicals by British firms capable of being used in the manufacture of the horrific weapons that were used on Syrian civilians   
At the height of the Homs massacres (possibly carried out by snipers trained with the reported shipment of sniper ammunition licences by Britain), some of Assad's leaders fled their country and begged Britain to take action against him, specifically by seizing his London based property and attempting to bear influence on his regime through Assad's English born wife
Nothing was done, the British Parliament voted not to become involved, and Assad's Representative, his Brother-in-law continued to enter and leave Briain as easily as he did Harrods, on Assad's business
The Syrian protests escalated into civil war and the absence of Western support led to the creation of a massive terrorist threat in the form of Isis.

Can you think of a single reason why refugees from that horrific situation we have helped to create should be refused entry into the counties who helped create it - Britain having been a major player?

The "control of immigration" that the British leaders are now boasting they are carrying out was a major feature in making Brexit the catastrophic threat it has now escalated into

If you have any evidence (other than Iain's "deny everything inconvenient" approach) that any of this is untrue, feel free to present it
Refusal to do so makes you a supporter of it.
Your starter for ten
Jim Carroll


Another long, and confusing diatribe. But I do seem to recognise a question hidden away in there: "Can you think of a single reason why refugees from that horrific situation we have helped to create should be refused entry into the counties who helped create it - Britain having been a major player?"
Without either accepting, or denying, that Britain was involved in creating the situation, I see no reason for us to refuse entry to 'refugees'.
If refugees seek asylum in the UK, and it is their first port of call, we should accept them.
For all other possibilities, look at the UNHCR of 1951 and 1967


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 06:16 PM

Neither I, not anyone in this thread, nor any newspaper article I have read suggested Brexit was the *sole* reason for the Nissan decision. Creating false arguments to demolish is not very respectable.

As to what was an insult in your post: I credit you withenough intelligence to work it out for yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 09:28 PM

So we can all now agree that Nissan's decision was influenced by the uncertainty over brexit. There, wasn't that easy? No need for any more clutching at brexiteering straws. And you can bet your life that plenty of other companies are considering their positions for the same reason.

My mum has renewed her urgings to get me to apply for Irish citizenship, for which I qualify. Must get a grip on that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 09:40 PM

No. We can all now agree that Nissan's decision was influenced by the uncertainty over the future of Diesel engined cars in the UK. My mum is now long dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 01:54 AM

The decision, Stanron, was influenced by the future of diesal engines and by Brexit. Just as your choice for your next holiday is influenced by location and price. Or the songs you choose are influence by lyrics and melody.

It is not a difficult concept that decisions can be influenced by many things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 03:00 AM

Nigel. Just a suggestion but it does make far more sense to create a link to another post or simply refer to the date and time rather than C&P the entire thing or whole swathes of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 03:32 AM

Hard Brexiteers say only way forward is to remove the backstop

You will remember it was asked several times during the Brady amendment debate what "alternative arrangements" were. While 'Malthouse' was mentioned, it was definitely not declared by Brady or the government to be the only viable alternative. It is certainly possible that the amendment would not have been passed had that been the only possible interpretation.

The chances of the EU agreeing to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement are virtually zero. Dress it up as you like, but this looks like determined manoeuvring to get 'no deal' to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM

if scotland doesn't get her independence, providing us with somewhere more sensible and civilised to return to and you get your irish passport, steve. (sadly my irish granny was foolish enough to leave her kilkenny home to get born in liverpool. if only she had thought about me...) anyway, steve, will you do the decent thing and marry me. and then marry my wife - or the other way round. then we will go and live with our daughter who has just bought a holiday camp centre (14 rooms) in estonia for £20,000 (or 20,000 euros) and get stockpiling short range nuclear weapons and ibuprofen. or something. don't feel you have to join us there - you'll have done your bit for humanity. or insanity


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 03:45 AM

It's frightening how a handful of MPs who are more concerned with keeping their fortunes intact than doing what is right can manipulate the government into a situation where the majority of the country will suffer.

Politics is broke and the only way I can see to recover is a drastic shift in the way we do things. My benign dictatorship is looking better by the minute...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 05:00 AM

No need for any more clutching at brexiteering straws.

Indeed! but rational discussion needs accurate reporting of facts.
Regarding the highlighting of inaccuracies as nitpicking does nothing to advance a counter argument, it merely demonstrates their meagreness


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 05:07 AM

Sounds better than Theresa's deal, Pete!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 07:35 AM

Without either accepting, or denying, that Britain was involved in creating the situation, I see no reason for us to refuse entry to 'refugees'.

For the record the UK has given refuge to a greater number of refugees from Syria than Russia and Iran combined.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM

"For the record the UK has given refuge to a greater number of refugees from Syria than Russia and Iran combined."

Could we have a link to your source please?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 11:54 AM

Er, and what about Lebanon, home of Hezbollah, then? :-) One Syrian refugee for every four Lebanese citizens? On top of half a million or so Palestinian refugees? They may not like 'em but they take 'em... Amazing how inconvenient the partial presentation of information can be, innit, bobad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM

Jesus Christ, Steve - don't wave the Palestinians in front of boobad, he'll launch into one of his regular psychotic episodes!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM

Lebanon is next door, all the way from Damascus to Homs. No surprise they take many refugees from the western instigated destruction of their country. Turkey takes the most, followed by Lebanon and Jorden.
Britain comes in at number 32, Russia at 35.Iran is not listed, but this is hardly surprising. To get there one must cross eastern Syria and northern Iraq, both dangerous places to traverse. But they have given sanctuary to 1.5 million mainly Iraqi Kurds since 1991.
Those asylum seekers reaching the UK would have already made landfall in the EU and should have had their refugee legitimacy decided where they first made landfall.

"In the European Union, however, the 2003 Dublin II regulation determines which E.U. member state is obligated to process an asylum claim; if an asylum claim is made within 12 months of arriving in the E.U., the first E.U. country in which the asylum seeker arrived is responsible for processing the claim (after that, it’s the E.U. country where the person has lived for at least five months)."

Therefore it is no surprise the number granted asylum in the UK is relatively low. I do not believe the discussion ventured into a numbers game relative to the rest of the world, so I fail to see what point you are making.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 12:56 PM

.Iran is not listed, but this is hardly surprising. To get there one must cross eastern Syria and northern Iraq, both dangerous places to traverse.

Lol.....Canada is slightly further from Syria than is Iran.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM

"For the record the UK has given refuge to a greater number of refugees from Syria than Russia and Iran combined.

Could we have a link to your source please?"


Thought not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 01:59 PM

Derstinations Syrian refugees #


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 04:01 PM

If we took pro rata according to population the same number of refugees as Lebanon we'd take as many Syrian refugees as people who voted remain. There, back on topic!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM

Nearly five hundred posts about a futile gesture so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 04:49 PM

How futile would a futile gesture have to be to make it so futile, it would be futile to comment?

I suppose its futile wondering about these things.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:29 AM

Tic Toc!
Not too long to wait now for brexit.
Dissent is a futile gesture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:38 AM

Jeremy and rare moments of lucidity

From Guido, of courae!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:13 AM

multi national capitalism pulls the strings


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:38 AM

Was Burke a berk? A lesson for our times.

https://unherd.com/2019/02/how-parliament-disdains-the-people/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM

multi national capitalism pulls the strings

I agree, Dick. Which is why alliances like the EU are important. On our own the UK stands little chance of resisting pressure from the huge mega-companies. United with our neighbours we have far more chance of standing up to them. Sadly, the little Englanders seem to think that we are still a world power. We are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 05:10 AM

Was Burke a berk? A lesson for our times.
Not to be confused with Berk


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 07:20 AM

I agree, Dick. Which is why alliances like the EU are important. On our own the UK stands little chance of resisting pressure from the huge mega-companies. United with our neighbours we have far more chance of standing up to them. Sadly, the little Englanders seem to think that we are still a world power. We are not.

Funny that Trump wanted to pull out of Nafta. It seems if you are a poorly educated worker your job may well evaporate, along with the tariffs. Just as in the EU jobs have shrunk in the west as EU grants and a lower cost base encourage relocating some manufacturing to the east.
Sadly the remainiacs think they know the cost of everything but know the value of nothing.
Globalism destroys the employment opportunities of the unskilled and especially younger workers.
Unemployment of those under 26 EU
Greece 44%
Spain 34%
Italy 32%
Croatia 24%
Cyprus 22%
Portugal 21%
France 20%
UK 11.5%
Germany5%

"Investor confidence has plummeted to a four-year low in the Eurozone, with a sixth consecutive monthly fall in the Sentix index taking it to its lowest level since November 2014. Sentix said Eurozone growth was “weaking dangerously quickly and strongly.” Meanwhile Germany’s investor morale dropped to its lowest level since August 2012 in a separate index as it teeters on the brink of recession…

Naturally Brexit is being blamed, despite the UK currently having higher investor confidence and the fastest growing European economy in the G7. It’s one thing for underperforming companies to use Brexit as an excuse for their poor results. It’s quite another for underperforming EU countries to use it as an excuse for why they’re doing worse than the UK…"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 07:54 AM

From Larry Elliott in the Guardian:

Britain’s pivotal services sector has posted its weakest performance since the immediate aftermath of the EU referendum amid growing signs that Brexit uncertainty has slowed the economy to stall speed.

The latest health check of a sector that accounts for almost 80% of UK output showed services companies starting to reduce staff numbers in response to a decline in new business.

Following downbeat news from the manufacturing sectors, the closely watched survey of services from the Chartered Institute of Procurement and Supply and IHS Markit heightened concerns that the UK’s planned exit from the EU at the end of March would be accompanied by an economy flirting with recession.


I just love to give the brexiteers hereabouts something to scrabble about with to see if they can blame anything they can find, ANYTHING but brexit...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 09:31 AM

Paul Staines, former bankrupt and convicted drink driver, or Edmund Burke, great statesman. I think I know who I would listen to on the subject of parliamentary democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 10:39 AM

Edmund Burke, great statesman?

In May 1778, Burke supported a parliamentary motion revising restrictions on Irish trade. His constituents, citizens of the great trading city of Bristol, however urged Burke to oppose free trade with Ireland. Burke resisted their protestations and said: "If, from this conduct, I shall forfeit their suffrages at an ensuing election, it will stand on record an example to future representatives of the Commons of England, that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgment assured him they were wrong.
His electorate extracted their revenge 2 years later and he lost his seat.
It is noteworthy that he represented (corrupt)rotten boroughs for the rest of his Parliamentary career. Why was that I wonder?

A lesson some modern MPs would do well to heed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 01:17 PM

We still have our own "St Valentine's Day" to get through. It is incredibly hard to predict what will still be standing by the end of it. We may have whittled the options down to one. Or none. Or they could all still be around.

Or, perhaps, for some on each side -

He went like one that hath been stunned,
And is of sense forlorn:
A sadder and a wiser man,
He rose the morrow morn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:02 PM

You have to ask if some people read the quotes they are about to post.

"that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgement assured him they where wrong"

We could do with some more like him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:33 PM

"that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgement assured him they where wrong"

and come election time his constituents ensured his ass was grass! and they mowed it most thoroughly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:56 PM

There is a certain inconsistency in the posting by remainiacs here.
On the one hand they argue an MP should vote (as instructed by the whips)as guided by his superior knowledge(Does anyone, other than a lefty, really believe such nonsense?) and on the other hand encourage them to lie through their teeth and deliberately deceive their electorate in order to be elected. They then try to explain away the deliberate lying by calling it real politik.

A reminder:MPs backed the government's European Union Bill, supported by the Labour leadership, by 498 votes to 114.
Shortly after there was an election with both main parties supporting brexit.
The subsequent beviour of remainiac MPs suggests they will lie cheat and steal from their grannies in order to be re elected, and see no harm in betraying their electorate in many constituencies.

The next election will be a grand settling of scores and probably remap British politics for a considerable period of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:13 PM

They are not betraying their electorate if they vote in accordance with the interests of their electorate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:37 PM

"They are not betraying their electorate if they vote in accordance with the interests of their electorate."
As jefferson wrote:(roughly) These truths are self evident!

The link below elaborates a little.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/02/principles-for-reselections-and-deselections.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM

At the very least, the MP is charged with looking after not only the interests of his or her constituents, but also those who are too young to vote and the interests of future generations to come. It is very common for the short term desires and the long term interests to differ. To that extent at least, the MP is duty bound to go against what some current voters might wish in the wider interests of the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 08:17 PM

The transaction between an MP and his or her constituents is very simple. The MP is not obliged to cowtow to the wishes of the constituents. The constituents are not obliged to re-elect that MP. Every MP has thousands of constituents who would far rather have someone else "representing" them. And in no way can constituents regard their MP as their delegate. Naturally, it would be an outrage if an elected member serially disregarded their party's manifesto, but that's fine because the constituents have the remedy which won't be long in coming. Both major parties overwhelmingly voted for the referendum and for Article 50. Both parties contained large numbers of members who voted in both votes against their better judgement. Before each of those votes in turn there was a groundswell in the country in favour of both so powerful that voting against would have been disastrous for the party. MPs voted in both ballots in their parties' interests and hundreds of MPs who knew that brexit was the worst idea in the world were too gutless in both to oppose what was a terrible notion. As now, hundreds of MPs ignored the best interests of the country. That was a dereliction of duty and a kick in the bollocks for democracy. The undemocratic referendum campaign was the icing on the cake. In terms of knock-on effects, this is going to go down as one of the worst periods in history, and not just for this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 01:55 AM

You are right on what the relationship is, Steve, and that is very much Burke's stance. What I was trying to do was give a reason WHY that is the relationship.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 02:52 AM

Absolutely correct Steve. For the feeble-minded amongst us who have the mistaken idea that MPs must do their constituents bidding (which would, of course, be impossible in most instances, because the MP has no way of knowing what his constituents' wishes on the vast majority of issues are) it's all explained in this piece


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 02:54 AM

Britain’s latest horror in Ireland: they’re talking about burying their nuclear waste in Northern Ireland.

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/02/05/radioactive/

Surely Downings Street would be better?

Seriously, if they want to revive the IRA, what better plan?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 04:29 AM

Both parties contained large numbers of members who voted in both votes against their better judgement. Before each of those votes in turn there was a groundswell in the country in favour of both so powerful that voting against would have been disastrous for the party. MPs voted in both ballots in their parties' interests and hundreds of MPs who knew that brexit was the worst idea in the world were too gutless in both to oppose what was a terrible notion

Let us reword this in simple terms that all can understand. Many MPs put political survival and self interest top of the list when it came to voting for article 50 and during electioneering for the recent election. TO merely say they were gutless seriously understates the severity of the problem.
Having secured their sinecures by lies and a distinct lack of integrity and honour, they now are hellbent on betraying the mandate instructed by the recent referendum. Both parties put out their stands on the basis of honouring the result. Their behaviour now shows their true colours. It is a sad sad day when the Beast of Bolsover is the only MP in the house to publicly display his consistency and integrity. Many Mps have shown themselvesto be grubby little people. This will not be forgotten.
There are many quotes concerning Burke but it is as well to remember real politik. After betraying his Bristol electorate his subsequent parliamentary career was to represent Malton, another pocket borough under the Marquess of Rockingham's patronage. His latter parliamentary catreer was never legitimised by a proper election.
As has been pointed out many times both parties vowed to honour the referendum result. To betray the outcome betrays democracy and takes us into uncharted waters. No amount of petty nitpicking by remainers can alter this. Politicians rule over us with our consent.

If that consent is withdrawn whither next?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:17 AM

Those who backed Brexit with no plan deserve "special place in hell'


That doesn't sound as if May can expect much movement on Thursday to me once I anticipate it might be overlooked, it is the absence of a plan that merits the special place, not Brexit as such.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:23 AM

As Guido eloquently states:
This kind of arrogant derision from EU elites is exactly why we voted to leave in the first place…


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM

I repeat: his comment is against those who pushed Brexit without a plan. Not those who pushed Brexit in itself.

Do you think it was a good idea to push without a plan? If you think a plan was important, outrage that somebody said so is a bit confected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM

A plan has to be there before negotiation. We are now at the end, or near the end, of two years of negotiation. The EU complains about Mrs May's red lines, yet now bandies accusations about no plans. At least one of these complaints must be unfounded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM

Not so, Stanron. The red lines set out what you are not prepared to change in any final agreement, but not what the goal is.

A plan is how to achieve that unstated goal.

A plan should be there before you begin a negotiation, but it was not. That is why Tusk referred to a special place in hell for them.


There is no inconsistency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:18 AM

The red lines indicate that there was a plan. In a negotiation plan details get altered as part of the two way process. If either side got all of their initial plan through without any change then there can not have been any negotiation.

Tusk is merely having an ill tempered whinge. Maybe he knows something is waiting in the wings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:40 AM

Red lines saying you don't want are no sort of a plan, sorry.

Someone referred me to a nice cartoon a while back. I don't think it was on Mudcat, but apologies if it was. It concerned two MPs trying to order lunch in a restaurant. "Neither of us want the soup, I definitely don't want the salmon and he won't have the pate."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:50 AM

Burke, by the way, was Irish - a Dubliner educated (in other words permanently resident during most of his childhood) in the Quaker school at Ballitore in Co Kildare; his study still exists there, unchanged and unknown to anyone except the two elderly bachelor brothers who own the house in front of the one where it's concealed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:53 AM

So now that Tusk acknowledges that the whole thing since calling the referendum has been in the name of internal political party division, when is he going to get his act together and make sure that the majority of the UK population who are caught in the crossfire are protected form all this. Whether or not he likes the fact, we are all members of an EU state and have the same rights as the rest of the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 09:59 AM

Theresa May's red lines were drawn well after the push for brexit, during which push there patently wasn't a plan. In fact, she wasn't even in charge, and she wasn't even one of those pushing for brexit. You have it somewhat arse about face, Stanron.

And well said, Donald Tusk, by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM

Here's a little song for you all (Daily Mail) to the tune of 'Daisy, Daisy':-

Brexit, Brexit, time to say toodle-oo.
We want exit, Brussels it's up to you
To end this unhappy marriage,
Although we keep Nigel Farage,
Just set us free
and you will see
We'll shake hands with a new EU!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:01 PM

Nice one Sen. I like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:15 PM

Sorry Senoufou, not only is that childish, it's passing the buck to the EU for a situation that the UK has created.

The UK created this debacle it is up the UK to present a solution instead of blaming "Johnny Foreigner"

Having said that I'm not surprised that it was printed in the Mail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM

Couldn't agree more, Raggytash. We are in a terrible situation and levity concerning the crisis is not only unfunny but also totally misplaced.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:42 PM

It is only up to the EU to decide if the UK's proposals meet their objectives. There is no obligation on the EU to accept what it thinks is a bad deal. "No deal is better than a bad deal" works in both directions, you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 06:16 PM

DMcG wrote: "No deal is better than a bad deal" works in both directions, you know.


Good. Let's go for no deal. The UK hard left have demonstrated their total lack of good humour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 01:34 AM

I think you are misunderstanding, Stanron. The point is the UK *does* want a deal as expressed by all the Malthouse compromise stuff. But the EU is under no obligation to accept it. Of the UK had not wanted deal it could have said so something like 18 months ago and just worked for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 03:53 AM

Well Stanron, you seem to regard Jeremy Corbyn as hard left, and he has written to May laying out the conditions for a deal that he would support. The choice seems to be between this and remain. May cannot get anything through the commons without opposition party support.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

Corbyn is a grubby little opportunist. Now all can see him for what he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM

An interesting snippet:
"Accordingly, on the basis of the EU's own view of what is legally allowed under Article 50 and on the basis of which the negotiations proceeded, the backstop in its present form is illegal as a matter of EU law. The Attorney-General of the UK came to a similar conclusion in paragraph 17 of his advice to the government of 13 November 2018. It could also be argued that the backstop is inconsistent with the aim of the Treaty on the European Union to promote peace (expressed in its Article 3) since it is inconsistent with the institutional provisions of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement and therefore undermines it.
EU law provides for a specific procedure for ensuring the legality of an envisaged international agreement before it is concluded. The procedure is set out in Article 218(11) TFEU and is regularly used."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 05:59 AM

Today's light relief

Insults by EU unacceptable, say people who regularly compare it to Hitler

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM

Corbyn seems to be the only one looking for middle ground though. I don't entirely agree with him, I think we should just stay in. But he is at least looking for a compromise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:37 AM

Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who preached against the 21st Century European Empire to an Ireland asked to vote again because they gave the wrong answer in the first vote? The leader of the party supporting a second vote for the UK because they gave the wrong answer to the first vote?

Principles and consistency or what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:47 AM

For people supposedly in favour of Brexit, the Brexiteers seem quite upset that Corbyn is listing ideas for discussion which would enable Labour to support it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM

As Betty Boothroyd commented in her fine Brexit speech the other day

"If a democracy can't be allowed to change it's mind, it ceases to be a democracy"

Going on later to quote Harold Wilson

"Anyone who claimed that membership of the European community was a black and white issue was either a charlatan or a simpleton."

There appear to be a few of each on here...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM

I thought corbyn imposed a 3 line whip for article 50. They already support brexit, unless they have been lying to us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM

" they gave the wrong answer in the first vote?"
No - Ireland doesn't hold referenda to get "the right answer" it does so as the feelings of the voters obliviously shift - that way we got same sex marriage, 20ist century rights to pregnancy termination rights and are set fair to gain divorce reforms in line with the rest of the world - none of which would have been obtained had the early decisions have remained carved in stone
Europe doesn't have an "


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 08:26 AM

Whoops
Europe doesn't have an "Empire" though I would guess it takes an ex-Imperial power to describe co-operation between States without having Britain at the helm as such

Also reported that Britain's economy on the point of stalling thanks to uncertainty about Brexit and has so far cost the country £64.5bn since the referendum.
Also just been reported that Boris Johnson was paid €1000 per minute for a 58 minute speech on Brexit he made to a business consortium
Nice to know somebody is cleaning up from this fiasco
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:00 AM

Wonderfully off topic as usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:14 AM

There is nothing in any way undemocratic about providing people a chance to think again about an important decision. "Are you sure?" Is a perfectly reasonable question. It's even built into the legal system when it comes to divorce proceedings, withered there is always a "decree nisi" before any divorce takes effect.

In analogous circumstances referendums on the EU have been rerun after an initial "no" vote in three countries - Ireland, Denmark and Norway. In Ireland and Denmark the result of the second referendum was that people voted the other way - and in both countries there is now overwhelming support for EU membership. In Norway the second referendum confirmed the result of the first, and currently public opinion on membership is still split down the middle.

Does anyone claim that these countries are somehow less democratic than the UK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM

"obliviously shift"
Obviously shift - obviously
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:34 AM

Well if you are going to bring divorce into it, how about this? In most divorces a partner who has contributed to the marriage gets a proportion of the assets on leaving, not a bill. The UK has contributed more to the EU budget than it has received. We should be getting our share of the assets back as we leave. Not paying a bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM

Now that is argument of someone who thinks we have the upper hand in the negotiations...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM

The EU had many children sired by the UK. We should let the EU keep the house and pay maintenance to support the children...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:01 AM

You people are weird.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:13 AM

I find the term 'you people' weird.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:22 AM

"Also just been reported that Boris Johnson was paid €1000 per minute for a 58 minute speech on Brexit he made to a business consortium
Nice to know somebody is cleaning up from this fiasco"


And this would be the self-same Boris Johnson who, the morning after the referendum, emerged from his front door looking like a rabbit caught in the headlights, with "Oh fuck, that wasn't supposed to happen!" written all over his ugly face, and who promptly shat his boxers and ran away when it was suggested that he should take charge of the BrexShit process?

He's a shameless POS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:43 AM

"You people are weird."
I find people who make statements and refuse to reply to responses even weirder - sort of "none so deaf...." if you know what I mean
I didn't bring divorce into anything I used it as an example of how people are prone to changing their minds when the consequences become clear to them - not catered for in the UK
You ignore, your compatriot Nigel does a runner
He who refusees to fight, but runs away
Lives to run another day - as they say
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 11:08 AM

Dissent in the Labour ranks. Brought by the illustrious Guido(of course)

https://order-order.com/2019/02/07/leslie-tells-corbyn-pick-phone-maduro/

You would think they would concentrate on Brexit,but with corbyn at the helm perhaps not!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 11:55 AM

More good news from the IMF.
"I'm no great follower of the economic predictions which the IMF is prone to make, but when it is downgrading so many EU economies (especially Germany and France) and forecasting that the UK is likely to enjoy the best economic growth – despite Brexit – we should listen."

http://www.cityam.com/272046/despite-apocalyptic-brexit-warnings-good-news-keeps-coming

Here comes the gold. Perhaps frankincense and myrrh come after the 29th March when we kick the wise(?) men of Brussels into touch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 01:09 PM

Bank of England have said that Britain is facing the slowest rise in the economy for over a decade thanks to Brexit
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM

HAPPY DAYS are HERE AGAIN - DEFINITELY NOT
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM

Happy days are here again?
Perhaps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 02:20 PM

******* Becket..... !!!
See one of his plays and your glad he got stabbed in the cathedral
She's wasted on Castle though !!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 03:26 AM

Just got it Jim - :-D

Lovely quote posted by a friend on Facebook (Thanks Maureen)

"“I’m going to deliver it on time,” she carried on. “That’s what I’m going to do for the British public.” It is scarcely worth repeating that half the country doesn’t want it delivered on time. They don’t want it delivered at all. At some point, in the near and far too late future, it’s possible she’ll work out she should never have pretended to be Winston Churchill, charged with some sacred mission to deliver Britain to its promised land. The promised land will be terrible. She knows it, and not only can she not say it, she can’t extend her emotional range to acknowledge that she is dragging at least half her country kicking and screaming towards it."
-Tom Peck in today's Independent


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 03:30 AM

I was trying to post the link to that piece earlier, Dave, but I couldn't get it to work. Tom Peck says precisely what I was thinking when I saw that interview yesterday - the dead eyes, the grimacing mouth...the lights were on, but there was no-one home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Monique
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM

Link


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 04:18 AM

Thanks for the link, Monique.

Out of interest, I think you are in France aren't you? If so, what is the general French view of Brexit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 04:25 AM

Donald Tusk tells Theresa May that Jeremy Corbyn plan could end Brexit deadlock

What is the betting that May will not go for any part of Corbyn's plan and it will still be his fault?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM

"Thanks for the link, Monique."
Ditto
One of the things Britain has totally failed to grasp is that it is their choice and their problem so pointing fingers and blaming everybody else for the ongoing mess is cowardly and stupid
This crass decision has impacted on so many other people who are forced to clean up after the mess that is Brexit and still May is demanding that they compromise to accommodate her - how insane can this get before somebody pulls the plug?
Britain is now an international laughing-stock alongside Comb-over Trump
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:18 AM

I find it impossible to have any respect for a man who lacks the spine to admit he's bald.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:31 AM

Would that also have applied to John Wayne?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:45 AM

Reported on Guardian live:
Donald Trump is being urged to play hardball with the UK when it negotiates a trade deal with the US after leaving the EU, Huffington Post reports.

It says the US Department of Trade asked industry what the president should extract from post-Brexit Britain and the answers from lobbyists for big firms included:

* Changing how NHS chiefs buy drugs to suit big US pharmaceutical companies

* Britain scrapping its safety-first approach to safety and food standards.

* Law changes that would allow foreign companies to sue the British state.

* Removing protections for traditional British products.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:51 AM

So much for 'Taking back control'!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 07:02 AM

It is remarkably well aligned with what Raab, Patel and others argued in favour of in Britannia Unchained, so there is no need to delude ourselves that no UK government would agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM

It's not exactly a secret, we've known for a long time what the intentions of the Trump-led US government are with regard to a trade agreement with the Brexited, exposed and, in comparative terms, considerably weaker UK. And, of course, they will have us firmly by the testicles.

And still, the Brexshiteers blunder on towards the brink...the extent of their idiocy is breathtaking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 07:57 AM

The US's desire for laws making it okay for companies to sue states is nothing new: I think this was a possibility within the EU. And of course they were lobbying the EU on similar terms, which was one argument I heard in favour of coming out.

What do we want with their stuff anyway? Odd bit of good music, what else is there? Spam like in the war? Suppose it might come to that though :(

Good bit on disaster capitalists hoping to cash in on post-Brexit bonfire of the health and safety and environmental regs in the Grauniad:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/07/disaster-capitalists-no-deal-brexit-environment


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 09:06 AM

Good bit on disaster capitalists hoping to cash in on post-Brexit bonfire of the health and safety and environmental regs in the Grauniad:

The only problem is that it is an article from a rabid leftwing newspaper desperate to peddle anything that makes a case for resisting Brexit. It is purely conjecture and the articles author, Mr Monbiot is a treehugger of some repute, so impartiality when reporting is hardly one of his fortes.
I also think the entire subject of rolling back safety standards is simply a canard.

From my own experience the safety culture in the oil industry is virtually identical worldwide. Much of the present safety regime stems directly from the UK Piper Alpha disaster and resulting public enquiry. I would suggest that winding back safety legislation is far more difficult than introducing it. Do you seriously believe safety regimes in industry would be rolled back without the workers having some say in the matter?

More project fear I am afraid. Rather like producing economic forecasts dating from Dec. in order to belittle GDP of the UK relative to the EU. Better to wait until the government releases the actual figures for 4th quarter growth (due on the 11th Feb). Comparing GDP growth of countries based on actual figures becomes a silly pastime when comparing it to UK estimates dreamed up by the Bank of England. After all the Bank Of England has previous form when it comes to producing hopelessly incorrect estimates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 09:52 AM

The regulations people seem to be focused on are things like food standards, which do vary greatly all over the world. If you don't think Monbiot is suitable, look at the Huffington Post article. Or better still the original documents sent to the US government. They are not hard to find ("Negotiating Objectives for a U.S.-United Kingdom Trade Agrement")


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 09:56 AM

The only oil I eat is extra virgin olive oil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 10:13 AM

Whale oil beef hooked!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM

If anyone is in any doubt as to the fact that the Tories created this fuck up, listen to one of your own

Baroness Warsi on Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 11:50 AM

I see the link is through farcebook. Says it all really!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM

??????


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 12:42 PM

Farage forming a new political party. From Guido the leading source of news on brexit.

!!!!!!!
Cannot wait for the new show to hit the road!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 01:03 PM

That Farage and others have registered a new party named "Brexit" has been widely reported. That is, I think, a Project Fear worthy of the name. It is quite possible that the party gathers a lot of those in search of The One True Brexit, and like all single issue parties it will probably be very reticent on what else it stands for. It could highly dangerous and will feed on the resentments over Brexit whatever the outcome. We need to be very alert to the risks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 05:29 PM

For those incapable of following links to videos, here is a transcript of Barroness Warsi's interview in The Independent

States early on

The peer, who served in a number of roles under David Cameron when he was Prime Minister, admitted that the EU referendum was held to keep the Conservative Party together and insufficient plans were made for Britain voting to leave the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 05:57 PM

A piece from The New Statesman carefully explaining the nature of the Abusive Relationship the UK now has with the EU, brought about by the shameful behaviour of Brexiteers, and their ridiculous word-twisting and over-reaction to Mr. Tusk's 'special place in Hell' comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 02:59 AM

Jonn Elledge is spot on with his analysys, BWM. Trouble is, he refers to EU countries such as France and Germany as allies and our rabid brexiteers don't like that. They will remind you about WW1 and WW2. When you point out that we allied ourselves with France and Belgium in those conflicts they will remind you about Agincourt. When you remind them that we were allied with The Low Countries in the 100 years war they will probably struggle unless they can dredge up some sea battles with the Dutch. Chances are they will just call you a traitor and collaborator and say that even if we are not at war with them, we should be. After all, they are European, eat babies and want to shag your wife. And that's before they start on the New Statesman being a communist mouthpiece for Soviet domination ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 03:31 AM

I like the cut of his jib!


https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/17356118.letter-mps-will-be-finished-if-they-go-back-on-brexit/

No wishy washy signs of appeasement from him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM

It seems the contract with the Ferry Company With No Ships has been cancelled. But I was struck by the curious phrase 'no taxpayer money has been paid'. Surely the more natural phrase would be 'no money has been paid' which obviously includes the former phrase. As it is, the phrase suggests money has been paid, but not directly attributable to current taxes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 03:59 AM

Maybe the Tory party paid for it, DMcG. After all, the contract lined the pockets of some of them...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM

Maybe the Tory party paid for it, DMcG. After all, the contract lined the pockets of some of them...
Jolly good distraction techniques to divert attention from labour. They have many problems.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/08/luciana-berger-labour-members-antisemitism


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 04:13 AM

I think it more likely money has come out of some government fund that is not directly related to current taxpayers, but is of course (after sufficient back and forth between accounts and departments and relabelling) still ultimately from either the current taxpayers or, via debt, from future taxpayers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 07:20 AM

I see Grayling has cancelled the ferry contract awarded to the firm with no boats. That seems like sound policy to me. I applaud them for seeing sense on this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 07:33 AM

I condemn them for being such a bunch of greedy, self-serving twunts in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:07 AM

Not to say extremely irresponsibly stupid with the taxpayers money
What moron hands out a massive amounbt of cash to a shipping line with no ships and no lace to land them if they had them ?
Sums up the standards of our politicians perfectly in my opinion
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM

Not to say extremely irresponsibly stupid with the taxpayers money

Typical unfocused un-researched kneejerk reaction.

No tax payers money was involved has been very clearly stated by all sources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM

Awkward things facts!


Ferry firm will get no moneuy upfront


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:58 AM

Whether taxpayers money is involved depends on who you believe, who you count as a taxpayer and how you apportion costs. Here is a different viewpoint:


Keeping the site open is costing local taxpayers £7,224 a day, according to a local source, and the council – which has already spent months in fruitless negotiations with Seaborne – had proposed shutting it down to help balance the books.

The DfT persuaded the council to keep it open, claiming that talks with Seaborne were at an “advanced stage”, according to Paul Messenger, a local Conservative councillor.

He said the port was costing about £2m a year: “That’s why we haven’t got any road sweepers, that’s why we haven’t got any public lavatories.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:27 AM

LAID OUT SO FAR TO MAKE UP FOR BREXIT LOSSES
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM

I am surprised that anyone can believe a contract has been awarded and then cancelled with absolutely no costs involved.

Does that mean that everyone who worked on the contract tendering process did so without pay, that all the office space and on costs were free .......... together with all the other associated costs.






Mind you some people seem to believe in Unicorns too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:52 AM

"I condemn them for being such a bunch of greedy, self-serving twunts in the first place."

Apologies - I omitted 'incompetent' from the above in error. Should say, "I condemn them for being such a bunch of greedy, self-serving, incompetent twunts in the first place".

Grayling must qualify for the title 'Most Incompetent Minister In Parliamentary History'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:00 PM


I am surprised that anyone can believe a contract has been awarded and then cancelled with absolutely no costs involved.


In normal circumstance I would agree, Raggy. Any competent business drawing up such a contract would include all sorts of penalty clauses to do with cancellation.

However, this company was the one using pizza delivery t&c's, so it is believable they *were* that incompetent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:09 PM

"'Most Incompetent Minister In Parliamentary History'."
Puts him first in line as next leader of the Tory Party I would think
Can't think of anybody more qualified - can anybody ?
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM

Even Pizza delivery has on costs!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 01:36 PM

I suppose it is only right that a folk music site should encompass the noble art of pin dancing, as exemplified above.
Meanwhile tic toc!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM

St Jeremy of the allotment is having his wings singed in the press today.Even the Guardian/Observer has this to say:
Corbyn’s leadership is under withering fire. He is attacked, again, for a perceived failure to effectively combat antisemitism within the party, in the case of Wavertree MP Luciana Berger. His support for Venezuela’s discredited socialist experiment has drawn more fire. He faces threats from a number of MPs to quit the party altogether. And on Brexit, to date, he has been, at best, ambivalent about following stated conference policy and, at worst, duplicitous.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6686593/Jeremy-Corbyns-40-years-plots-lies-intimidation-chaos.html
Jeremy Corbyn's 40 years of plots, lies, intimidation and chaos: Chilling biography tells how Labour leader followed Lenin and Trotsky's bloody footprint - seize power, purge moderates, crush dissent and leave the dirty work to others

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/09/no-wonder-feminists-have-had-enough-jeremy-corbyn-fellow-brocialists/

Seems a concerted effort to highlight the chappie's failings. It rather destroys the credibility of the doyen? of the left. Perhaps the movers and shakers are fed up with his endless posturing, especially with a potential split in the offing. I wonder if those responsible have been learning from the Democrats mistakes? Their engineered takedown is turning into a fiasco.
Interesting times!.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

Interesting new idea afoot according to the Guardian website. Parliament could be asked to accept May's deal on condition that there would then be a referendum with a simple choice, May's deal or remain. I can see that gaining ground. Not keen meself. I don't like referendums and I think I that May's deal is a terrible idea. The temptation could be that it's likely to be the only way to break the deadlock, and there would be no objection from the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM

It is an interesting idea. I doubt, though, that a referendum without a 'no-deal' option would be approved by Parliament. The Brexiteers would demand it, and few politicians will be prepared to sign up for something the Mail & co will present as 'defying the will of the people', however dubious such an assertion might be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM

As a recent survey showed that many people thought that no deal meant remain, having both no deal and remain as a choice would just confuse them.

What has happened to our education system? :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM

What has happened to our education system? :-(

Now that is a topic and a half! Best kept off this thread, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM

Best kept off this thread, though.
Yes indeed,otherwise the educational failings of remainiacs might rise to the fore!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies facing a backlash in the next election for failing to cowtow to "the will of the people." Pardon me for being cynical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:27 AM

It is the will of the people elects them. They either pay attention, or find alternative employment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM

The simplest way to keep it off the referendum is to recognise that Parliament has already voted a week or two against a no deal. But I share your cynicism, Steve: it could be voted against as you suggest because of that fear, or amended to add a no deal because of that selfsame fear. Or call it self interest if you prefer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:53 PM

Steve: "We're told that almost no-one wants no-deal"

That's the problem. Some people just believe what they are told.
When Cameron suggested a referendum I'm sure he was told Remain would win it. People on this site seemed to think it was a forgone conclusion. The reality was something different.

If you were to say that "very few MPs want no-deal" then you may well be correct. But the majority of MPs (apparently) favoured Remain anyway, so that would not stretch credibility.
What the people of the country want in the current situation has yet to be tested, but the latest referendum is still the 2016 one, and a majority (of those who voted) voted to leave the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM

Nitpicking once again Nigel.

Do you have anything positive to tell us about Brexit.

I know I have asked this question on many many occasions, I have yet to receive a direct answer.

I would have hoped that after over two and a half years you may have been able to come up with some things to make me think that Brexit may have some beneficial outcomes for the UK.

Sadly I'm still awaiting such .............

Over to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 03:38 PM

I do like the way remainiacs like to ignore an adherence to facts by dismissing it as nitpicking. This same wilful disregard for reality is of course the reason Labour, when in power, always makes such a shambles of the economy. However we are quite safe. Under the realm of Corbyn labour can only wilt.No one, but no one, would trust him as PM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:02 PM

To be clear, Nigel, that's what I meant. "The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies..." etc.

Just for you, I suppose I could have said "...almost no-one in Parliament..." Silly me for thinking I'd provided enough context for that already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM


The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal.


For the record, as that sentence was explicitly directed to me, it is worth noting I read it in the sense I believe it was intended - that the 'almost no-one' related to the people in Parliament already referenced in the sentence. That the content of the universal can be interpreted in different ways is beside the point, common to almost every sentence in English using universals and, yes, nit-picking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:07 PM

cross-posted there, Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM

Cheers, DMcG. As we used to say oop north, you'll never see what I'll buy you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM

I THINK CORBYN WOULD BE A GOOD PRIME MINISTER


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:58 PM

I think the Tories are frightened of him

Why 15-page Jeremy Corbyn 'hatchet job' shows Tories are taking him seriously

He must be doing something right.

But if course all of this is just to take the heat of the complete cock up they have made over brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:01 PM

Oh, and into the valley of death ride the...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:42 PM

To be clear, Nigel, that's what I meant. "The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies..." etc.

Just for you, I suppose I could have said "...almost no-one in Parliament..." Silly me for thinking I'd provided enough context for that already.


Yes, but if your comments were allowed to ride we would be accepting that "almost no-one wants no-deal". If you wish to clarify the comment, then do so.
I may be alone in expecting people to be clear in their meanings.
If, as an ex-teacher, you are unable to accurately formulate your comments, that is your problem, not mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:48 PM

Nope. The problem is all yours. Nighty night, Nigletpicker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM
Nitpicking once again Nigel.
Do you have anything positive to tell us about Brexit.
I know I have asked this question on many many occasions, I have yet to receive a direct answer.


Requiring accuracy in the intentions of posters is not 'nitpicking', but if that is the best you can do to answer criticism of previous comments I will accept that you cannot add to the discussion.

As to the benefits of Brexit, I have posted comments about the advantages of buying foodstuffs without the tariffs imposed by the EU (to protect their own providers) but you have obviously either not read those comments, or chosen to ignore them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:55 PM

Nope. The problem is all yours. Nighty night, Nigletpicker.

Good night.
I assume you have forgotten your intention to use peoples real names, obviously a temporary resolution.

If the best you can do is use insulting names, and avoid discussing the matter in hand, clearly you have learnt from your pupils, rather than the other way around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:22 AM


As to the benefits of Brexit, I have posted comments about the advantages of buying foodstuffs without the tariffs imposed by the EU


I can't speak for anyone else, but I have not explored that here because it requires quite elaborate and disputed economics. The ERG's favourite economist, Professor Minton, advocates getting rid of tariffs entirely, and is quite content that theis would lead to the demise of UK farming etc. Which, since it limits our options, is actually quite bad in terms of sovereignty as we would be limited to picking between whatever deals others would be prepared to offer. Almost everyone else thinks letting our local farming collapse is a really bad idea. Some people argue that lowering tariffs leaves more money in people's pockets, which is a good thing. But if they can only spend it on foreign goods that is a net flow of resources out of the country, which is not a good thing at all.

I may be the only person in world who thinks this, but it seems credible to me that if we want to reduce climate change we need to encourage people to buy locally and that tariffs on imports will eventually be one of the tools we use to help manage this.

So: I regard reduction of tariffs not as a 'good' but as 'uncertain benefit'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:28 AM

By "almost everyone else" I of course meant "almost every other economist." I am sure a lot of people who are not economists think it as well, but it was the former I meant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:33 AM

Corbyn has become a figure of hate and fear for the establishment
If he wasn't he'd be ignored - now he is being targetted by extremist foreign government who have attempted to infiltrate British politics in order to smear him and halt his growing influence - cant wait till Trump tries to build another wall to keep him out
He must be doing something right (or do I mean 'left'?)
   
Nigel
"I assume you have forgotten your intention to use peoples real names, obviously a temporary resolution."
Just as you have forgotten to respond to answers to your questions
You asked, I answered - the rest is silence......
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:43 AM

But they are 'experts', DMcG, and the Brain-of-Little-Britain-types who voted Leave are "Fed up of experts".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM

If tariffs drop the only people who will benefit will be the ones current!y making profits. The importer will benefjt, the wholesaler, the retailer but when we get down to the consumer you can get that the price will remain the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:37 AM

But they are 'experts', DMcG, and the Brain-of-Little-Britain-types who voted Leave are "Fed up of experts".

I find it useful to put such quotes in context. From the same Guardian article we have the gem:
Prakash Loungani at the IMF analysed the accuracy of economic forecasters and found something remarkable and worrying. “The record of failure to predict recessions is virtually unblemished,” he said.

His analysis revealed that economists had failed to predict 148 of the past 150 recessions.


A rational person would thus take the pontifications of economists with a large pinch of salt.
Forecasting is more an art than a science. Why else did all the referendum forecasts become so unglued?
Statistically to be fed up with, and ignore experts, keeps a person in closer touch with reality.
I wonder how true this would be for the religion of climate change?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:58 AM


A rational person would thus take the pontifications of economists with a large pinch of salt.


True. But it would be irrational to then only eat salt...


Economists predictions are one factor among many to take into account. That the evidence says they are bad at predicting recessions does not means they should be disregarded in general. Babies and bathwater, as the saying has it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

UK economic growth slowest since 2012

We were asked earlier to wait for these figures before saying the growth was poor. We have done so.

"Ben Brettell, senior economist, at Hargreaves Lansdown said "There's little doubt Brexit uncertainty is responsible for the disappointing figures, though concerns over global trade will have also played a part."

Come now, you under-estimate the world class doubters you are delaying with. They are experts at doubting such things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:28 AM

Well in theory the 4th quarter GDP results are due today. Then we can see how far up the garden path Carney has taken us with his growth? estimates.
It is worth pointing out that Germany is expected to avoid an official recession by the skin of its teeth(results 14/02)
You need the big picture in order to draw meaningful conclusions,and in much of the world the favourite pencil out of the box is red.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:31 AM

Hardly a recipe for growth!


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/18/why-are-global-markets-falling-and-are-we-heading-for-recession


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:44 AM

From the font of truth and accurate reporting!


https://order-order.com/2019/02/11/uk-grows-1-3-2018/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 12:04 PM

At least one MP can see BrexShit for what it is, and isn't afraid to say so...

https://www.facebook.com/242623503265050/posts/308298963364170?sfns=mo


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM

Before anyone says 'Facebook' as a means of dismissal, the speech is easy to find in Hansard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 12:35 PM

Here is ine of Corbyn's speeches. I do like consistency off a politician!

https://talkradio.co.uk/news/exclusive-jeremy-corbyn-called-european-union-be-defeated-explosive-rally-speech-19021129836

What a valianr brexiteer! But he ducks and dives and bends and twists and the message varies north and south of the river!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 01:15 PM

Investment down, growth the worst for nine years and even a Tory chancellor is blaming brexit uncertainty. And nothing happening. No trade deals and Liam Fox wobbling sweatily. Anyone for £350 million a week?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:33 PM

I'd prefer the bus. I do not trust fiat currency!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:30 PM

The thing that gets consistently ignored by those yammering on about how being in a customer union with the EU gets in the way of getting trade deals with other countries in farflung parts of the world is that, when it comes to getting favourable trade deals, the UK on its own is in a far weaker position that the EU. It just hasn't got the clout. Much of the time it will be about knuckling down and accepting what is offered, however bad.

This is referred to as "regaining sovereignty and independence."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 07:46 PM

And the money we're taking back control of is ebbing away fast. And the borders we're taking back control of mysteriously appear to be unable to stop people from moving out. And the laws we're taking back control of will soon all be the same laws we'll have to stick with anyway (it won't hurt because they're all good laws anyway, and in any case they form a tiny proportion of all the laws the country embraces). And we'll have to stick to any new EU laws regarding trade, only this time we'll have no say in them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 03:49 AM

Remarkable programme on Irish television on Brexit last night which included powerful interviews with Alistair Campbell and the father of two of the Omagh bombing victims
The discussion centred around the possible effects Brexit would have on The Good Friday Agreement and a return to violence
It finished with statements from businessmen and farmers in the audience (from both sides of the border) outlining the effects this fiasco has had on their businesses and possible future effects
Campbell, who I have always detested, spoke magnificently and responded to every question clearly and honestly (not bad for a politician)
Perhaps they should have asked LORD SNOOTY instead - better for Britain's image !!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:42 AM

Lord Snooty:
He is the blue passport in human form, the red telephone box made flesh, the Royal Yacht Britannia in a pinstripe suit; a reminder of a world in which traditional Britons didn’t have to apologise for being who they were and bow before the gods of multiculturalism, feminism and health and safety.”
“He is more than just the leader of a faction or a cult. He is also the embodiment of the average Conservative Party member. A recent survey by Queen Mary University of London painted the fullest picture to date of Tory members. Some 44% are over 65 and 71% are men. They think austerity has been a good thing. They believe in traditional values and harsh prison sentences. They love Brexit—and not just any old Brexit, but the full-strength sort, leaving both the customs union and the single market."

A fine fellow of a man! Naturally superior to the scruffy git Corbyn.
The eloquent Rees Mogg has very clear consistent views concerning Brexit. Does Corbyn have a view of brexit that holds for more than the next soundbite? Such a disreputable wretch!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:29 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 01:15 PM
Investment down, growth the worst for nine years


"Growth worst for 9 years". Isn't it strange that that period of 9 years (only) just covers the periods of the Conservative-led governments.
maybe the quote deliberately avoided saying "Growth worst since we had a Labour government".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:51 AM

The recession of 2008/2009 is well documented as being the result of an unfettered financial market worldwide and not of the last Labour government. There was a lot not to like about Gordon Brown but you cannot lay a world crisis on his doorstep.

GDP is the accepted measure of economic growth. This administration have never achieved the high that Blair and Brown did in 2000 and with their efforts to trash the economy they never will. Try getting the facts for yourself, Nigel, instead of accepting the spin of your Tory betters.

GDP figures from 2000 to 2017


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM

Isn't the constant attempting to lay the blame the worldwide financial crisis - caused by the recklessness and mismanagement of, in the main, US financial institutions, mirrored here and elsewhere by others - at the door of the last Labour government a clear indication of the fundamental dishonesty of the Tory Party and its sycophants?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:10 AM

And, more importantly, a way of not talking about the impact of Brexit and the negotiations for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:11 AM

In 17 auctions, Mr Brown as Chancellor of the Exchequer sanctioned the sale of 395 tonnes of gold. Figures released by the Treasury show that the total proceeds from the sales was around $3.5billion. According to a Parliamentary answer, if the gold was sold last month, on December 15, it would have raised $10.5billifor you!on.Jan 7, 2009.

That's Labour for you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:32 AM

"Growth worst since we had a Labour government".
Long since expecting a return response Nigel, but the statement is based on statistics not who was in charge and they are even carried by the Conservative Daily Express, Daily Mail and the Vonservative mouthpiece, The Daily Telegraph
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:47 AM

The recession of 2008/2009 is well documented as being the result of an unfettered financial market worldwide and not of the last Labour government. There was a lot not to like about Gordon Brown but you cannot lay a world crisis on his doorstep.

GDP is the accepted measure of economic growth. This administration have never achieved the high that Blair and Brown did in 2000 and with their efforts to trash the economy they never will. Try getting the facts for yourself, Nigel, instead of accepting the
spin of your Tory betters.

GDP figures from 2000 to 2017


Talking of 'spin'. This administration may not have reached the 'high' of 2000, but looking at your graph, neither did Labour. This idea of picking a single year to make the comparison with is misleading.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM

Cheers, Jim. You beat me to it in putting Nigelpicker right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 10:58 AM

Thanks Baccy
"Vonservative mouthpiece, The Daily Telegraph"
Now there's a typo worth remembering - wonder if we can look forward to a Westminster Fire like the Reichstag one !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 11:12 AM

As expected, no answers from our resident Tories - 'whataboutery' from one, and the usual nitpicking from the other. Clearly students of the Theresa May Method of Answering Questions - i.e. ignore the question and try to change the subject.

What a shower!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 12:01 PM

This idea of picking a single year to make the comparison with is misleading.

And blaming the Labour government for a world recession caused primarily by dodgy banking practices isnt?

It was you who started trying to compare the current Tory disaster with past Labour governments, Nigel. Don't start backtracking now just because some awkward facts have got in the way!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:00 PM

Who was blaming Labour for the global recession of 2008/09?
The comparative high point of 9 years ago (although GDP growth has been higher in between) was soon after that recession. The global recession (of 2008/09) cannot take all the blame in the fall of GDP growth.
In the link you gave for GDP figures from 2000 to 2017 there was a downward trend from a peak in 2000 before that recession hit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:12 PM

Past performance has sweet FA to do with brexit anyway. The current low has everything to do with it. Nice try at deflection but don't worry. You are not the only one who knows they are wrong about leaving the EU but is now unable to admit it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM

In a perhaps vain attempt to drag people back into the present day rather than discussing the financial crash or Brown's gold dealings, here is something about Brexit. Remember that is what we are discussing?

It seems Grayling's statement that no taxpayers' money has been spent in dealing with the Ferry Company With No Ships is being challenged by carefully ignoring all the costs involved apart from dosh directly paid to the company.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:20 PM

The ONS has released its first estimate of GDP grow