BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 09:50 AM

There are TOO MANY UK POLITICAL THREADS GOING on this American folk and blues music site. These things repel users and the fighting bleeds into other threads. Constrain yourselves to one thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 10:48 AM

It would be nice if you would make it clear who you're referring to,

Perhaps he is merely following the lead of the opposition turnip!

It would be nice if you distinguished between fact,fiction or merely whimsy!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 09:44 AM

All the literate bits of the 09.35 AM post were copied and pasted from the Daily Mail without attribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 09:35 AM

Jeremy Corbyn was left humiliated in the House of Commons today as he was jeered by Tory MPs for claiming Boris Johnson's Brexit deal will result in maggots in orange juice.
(Worzel appears to be losing it. Must be time to put him back in the allotment so he can converse with turnips.)

Meanwhile 4 wrecking amendments were placed before the house to wreck Bojo's Brexit deal.

Needless to say the new speaker treated them with the contempt they deserved, and ignored them.
The Commons is expected to approve the second reading of Mr Johnson's WAB - the legislation needed to make an orderly Brexit on January 31 happen - in its final act before the Christmas break.

With Mr Johnson now commanding a majority of 80 following his thumping election win last week, the WAB is expected to sail through after every Tory MP was required to sign up in writing to support it.
No more burkes allowed in the tory ranks, only berks.

Ijus hope he presents his legislation in an unsinkable fashion so the meddling millar cannot fight it. It is time to declare her a vexatious litigant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:22 AM

Good to see Thornberry has her hat in the ring for the leadership of the Labour party.
Let me see now. Was she not fired for tweeting her contempt for the "white van Man"?

Ths is better than the muppet show! Guarantees a few more decades in the wilderness for labour.

Obviously lessons learnt and ideology do nor mix. Brill!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:18 AM

"Chicken meat, says the report, is also an important source of Enteritidis infections. Last December, the FSIS reported that 22% of establishments that produce chicken parts failed to meet the Salmonella performance standard. The percentage of samples of chicken meat and intestinal contents that yielded Enteritidis were similar in 2018 compared to those during 2015-7.
"Poultry-and-eggs-remain-the-major-source-of-food-poisoning-in-the-US

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:08 AM

Sorry got sidetracked I will be back.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 04:59 AM

Well boys and girls that served it's purpose. We now know that this is based on a complaint from the USA to the WTO about EU regulations.

Now just who has a vested interest in this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 04:43 AM

Unsupported? I alwways post facts!
https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/cases_e/ds389_e.htm

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40199.pdf

Tosh? That is for experts to determine. Sometimes lefties take their sense of entitlement just too far.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 03:48 AM

Unsupported tosh

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 03:23 AM

A 2012 scientific opinion by European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) recommends changes to the EU’s own meat inspection procedures, criticizing its efforts for detecting and controlling Campylobacter and Salmonella in chicken meat. Regarding chemical intervention, the opinion further states that “chemical substances in poultry are unlikely to pose an immediate or acute health risk for consumers.”19This followed the release of 2011 guidelines issued by the international food safety organization Codex Alimentarius Commission (Codex) for the control of Campylobacter and Salmonella in chicken meat.20 These Codex guidelines cover, among other types of production controls, the use of certain hazard-based control measures, including acidified sodium chlorite and trisodium phosphate, among other antimicrobial rinses and oxidants.

In the view of the United States. the EC measures appear to be inconsistent with the EC's WTO obligations, including, but not limited to, the following:

    SPS Agreement Articles 2.2, 5, and 8, and Annex C(1);
   
    GATT 1994 Articles X:1 and XI:1;
   
    Agriculture Agreement Article 4.2; and
   
    TBT Agreement Article 2.

According to the United States, the EC measures also appear to nullify or impair the benefits accruing to the United States directly or indirectly under the cited agreements. (2009)
As far as I am aware the dispute is still ongoing.
The US is the second biggest exporter of chicken in the world, after Brazil. Up until 1997 the US chicken exports to EU were worth 300,000$
Perhaps there is a whiff of protectionism involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:41 PM

It's over 95% actually, Pete, and most of them have been arrived at by consensus. When you consider that it's consensus by 28 countries, that's pretty good going. It's because almost all of those regulations were common sense, and you can bet your life that we'll stick with almost all of them when we leave. We'll have to see whether chlorinated chickens and GM beef stuffed with illegal hormones will also be spun to us as common sense.

And, up 'til now, we've had the power of veto over any major changes we don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 02:42 PM

uk governments - usually tory - have supported over 90% of EU laws and proposed many of them. why would there be any need to amend or scrap them?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:32 PM

Could well be that the partisan supreme court may not exist much longer.
That is the great beauty of having a majority. No one can stop it.
That will get the lefties squealing on twitter and farecebook.
More popcorn please.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?"
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 10:11 AM

DMcG I think that could safely be added to the "Broken Government Pledges" I seem to recall we were told that our rights would not be affected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 10:09 AM

And, following from that, there may well be several months between the lower court decision and the supreme court decision, during which time employers (etc) will not be 100% of the status of that law. Certainly, there is scope for uncertainty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 10:06 AM

"Lower courts can roll back EU laws after Brexit, No 10 confirms"

It will be interesting to see how this one plays out. The reason given is that the Government does not want roll back of these laws to be stuck in the Supreme Court due to it being overloaded. But surely if such a law is (or is not) repealed by a lower court, in many cases this will immediately lead to the judgement itself being appealed? Which will, ultimately, end up at the Supreme Court anyway?   The only way I can see of avoiding that is to find some way of limiting the appeal process, which is itself a substantial reduction in citizen's rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 09:05 AM

"Just because you're neurotic, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you..." :-)

Wonder whether he's out there looking for new masts...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:07 AM

As I said, Dave, we've found one of his soft underbellies. Don't he make such a big fuss!

Best cut down on the prosecco laddie, you are beginning to sound deranged. Besides providing me with endless entertainment

Here is a stunner from Bliar Blair:
'Ditch Corbyn's agenda or we're finished': Tony Blair slams modern Labour as a hard-Left 'comedy cult' and warns the party could DIE as he FINALLY admits that Brexit will happen telling Remainers: 'We've lost'

Are you paying attention?

Boris promises to give British judges power to overrule EU law and ‘take back control’

Corbyn and allies ‘marooned on fantasy island’ Blair rages - come back to reality mainland

and some festive news from Guido, the font of truth and enlightenment

https://order-order.com/2019/12/17/distrust-beeb-trust/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:42 AM

4444!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:15 AM

As I said, Dave, we've found one of his soft underbellies. Don't he make such a big fuss!

I see that our clownish prime minister is doing his brinksmanship bit again with the EU. There is no chance of a fully worked-out deal by next December. He is blatantly trying to hector the EU into complying with him in a hurry. It won't work. We need them far more than they need us, he seems to have forgotten in his post-victory hubris.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:40 AM

An IP address is dynamic especially when connecting via a cellular network (As I do). A MAC is a unique identifier.

Good to see further displays of stupidity off the lefties.

Your cell phone IP can be traced and even, located exactly on the map if someone has advanced technologies and network algorithms.
As I have been surfing for over 20 years I am sure I have a multiplicity of IP addresses spread over multiple countries. Only an utter ignoramus would try to make an issue of it.

Now back to brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:31 AM

It could be, DMcG, or it could be someone trying to hide who they are as has happened with right wing plants here before. I do not know which it is but judging purely by the posts my money is on something to hide.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:07 AM

I think this business of a roving IP address is a distraction. In my own case, for example, I post from home via a Virginmedia allocated IP, my phone via a Vodafone allocated IP, and when I visit my sons I may post via their IP addresses, or via a hotel's. Then - until I retired at the end of Novemeber - I occasionally posted from several different sites at work, each with their own dedicated lines. So people can have quite complicated IP patterns without any intention of avoiding control.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 03:50 AM

Gosh, don't he kick up when we ever mention his roving IP addresses... :-). Summat to hide, I reckon!

Glad to see you confirming your idiocy, have another bottle of prosecco.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 06:03 PM

You could be right, Bill, but though I occasionally argue with the mods I always accept that this isn't my gig, so I tend not to dwell. Interesting that we've found his soft underbelly, though. Gosh, don't he kick up when we ever mention his roving IP addresses... :-). Summat to hide, I reckon!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 02:25 PM

The mods can't deal with him because he posts from more than one IP address.

Not so, Steve. All they need to do is delete his membership as they've done to countless others (deserving and not so) and Hey Presto!- no more Iains.

Its a problem of will, not of mechanics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:44 PM

Win-win :-)

My crystal ball sez that the greens will be a more significant entity than labour come the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:03 PM

So, now it is happening. Now we know when. Now we know we will be out of the EU by the end of January, when can we expect to see all these financial benefits? When will food become cheaper? When will all the savings destined for the NHS start to take effect? When will all the jobs currently performed by immigrants be taken over by our unemployed youth?

We need to know these things. These are what leaving the EU has been sold on. I guess they have to be realised before the next election or Bozzer may have problems explaining why they have not yet happened. Either way, I'm looking forward to it. If we do reap the benefits, fantastic. I shall fully admit I was wrong and enjoy my new found wealth. If we don't, I will enjoy seeing the GAP try to wriggle out of it. Win-win :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:57 AM

Germany's Central Bank said in a report Monday that Europe's biggest economy will likely stagnate in the fourth quarter of 2019 as the country faced a decline in factory orders and industrial production in October.

"German economic output could stagnate in the final quarter of 2019," the Bundesbank wrote in its monthly report.

The ongoing U.S.-China trade war has hurt German industry, with the German economy heavily relying on exports to China. German automobile manufacturers have had trouble selling their vehicles in the Chinese market amid trade tensions.

Germany is also worried about the prospect of the U.K. leaving the European Union without a deal, known as a hard Brexit. A report in February suggested that 100,000 German jobs are at risk due to a hard Brexit.

That news will likely change the EU stance on brexit negotiations,especially as the recent election thinned out the treacherous remainiacs from the Tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:53 AM

WTO jurisdiction blocked

If we end up without a deal, we are often told we will trade on WTO rules. But currently the WTO court that resolves disputes is blocked. I have not seen any explanation how setting up new WTO trading is expected to work without the court. Trading that is already established is risky enough, but since they will have been running for some time most potential disputes are likely to resolved. But setting up a new one is trickier.

Trump seems perfectly happy to leave the court dysfunctional, so if he is re-elected we cannot assume it will be running over the initial year or two when we need to set up many of the agreements.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:42 AM

Yes, I admit that, at the moment, it only says ‘attempt’...”

But that’s not the same thing as ‘will have concluded trade deals (with the EU) by the end of 2020’, is it?

I’m very concerned that what The National Liar-in-Chief is trying to do is to give himself a legalised excuse to crash-out without a trade-deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:27 AM

Yes, I admit that, at the moment, it only says 'attempt', but here is today's news, taken from The Guardian

Boris Johnson will attempt to mark his election promise to “get Brexit done” by writing into law that the UK will leave the EU in 2020 and will not extend the transition period.
As MPs begin to be sworn in at Westminster on Tuesday, the prime minister’s team is working on amending the withdrawal agreement bill so that the transition, also known as the implementation period, must end on 31 December 2020 and there will be no request to the EU for a further extension.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:26 AM


"and will have concluded trade deals (with the EU) by the end of 2020"

Are you sure of that? I hope you're right.

There is lot of talk of a minimal deal on the EU side. It is possible that a deal of some kind is done by the end of 2020 that is just a phase of a much longer set of talks. That would enable both sides to claim they had met their goal, which is often how these things work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:04 AM

"and will have concluded trade deals (with the EU) by the end of 2020"

Are you sure of that? I hope you're right.

I wish I could share your faith in our National Liar-in-Chief's intentions. I suspect the largely non-dom bunch of billionaire tax-dodgers who control him might have a rather different view...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 10:26 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:01 PM
Oh God, yes. However, I've never seen the EU as an evil empire that's rubbing its hands with glee at the very prospect of the UK leaving, just waiting to pile on deleterious changes.

I've never seen that either. I see them wringing their hands that Britain is leaving, and doing all in their power to prevent it.

Fortunately the UK will leave the EU by 31 Jan, and will have concluded trade deals (with the EU) by the end of 2020, and this end date will have been written into law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 10:26 AM

Good too see the glitterai twitterers and the lefties posting here still do not get it. Luvvie lefty hugh grant campaigned in 5 constituencies.
Guess wot? They lefties lost each one. Calling people racist, stupid and deplorables gave Boris the premiership and Trump the Presidency.


Keep going as you are boyos your actions ensure Labour is finished not for just 5 years but forever.
The gnome, backward man, Shaw and a few also-rans think they know it all. Harsh reality has proved otherwise.

Your antics are a joy to behold

https://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=137181

Watch, assimilate, digest! perhaps you might learn something

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:01 PM

Oh God, yes. However, I've never seen the EU as an evil empire that's rubbing its hands with glee at the very prospect of the UK leaving, just waiting to pile on deleterious changes. It's still a democratic bulwark of (sadly) 27 nations against the increasing loss of democracy in the wider world. What a shame that we can't use our constructive influence in that regard any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:21 PM

I can't help thinking, Steve, that if some of the things that are being listed and we were blocking via our veto come to pass, the response will be "See? We got out just in time!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:04 AM

Mission Creep or landslide? Those ruled by ideology are unable to see the obvious. Luckily the recent election has cast the doubting Thomas's into the wilderness, preferably far enough away where we no longer have to hear their shoutie, strident,screeching voices

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/qualified-majority-voting-system-to-be-extended-under-treaty-provisions-1.1096639

https://www.eesc.europa.eu/en/our-work/opinions-information-reports/opinions/taxation-qualified-majority-voting


https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/qualified-majority/


http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2019/635533/EPRS_BRI(2019)635533_EN.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:41 AM

Just as importantly, we are losing to power to prevent changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:23 AM

A steady mission creep, Nigel? It was a perceived power grab in 1988. It is still a perceived power grab in 2019. Nothing has changed in over 30 years. There is no mission creep, steady or otherwise. If you think the single market is a good thing, why on earth did you vote to leave it? While in the EU we have power to change the things you don't like. Outside, we have no chance of changing anything. Do you want me to post the list of lies reported in the press about EU rules and regulations again?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:45 AM

I think most of the Brexiteers on here have been quite clear that the Single Market, in and of itself, was not necessarily a bad thing. The problem we saw (and continued to foresee) was the steady mission creep toward the centralised control of the whole European area.

That is certainly my view. As a trading block the EU makes some kind o fsense, but the shambles that is the CAP exposes fundamental flaws, as is an inability to react in a timely fashion. And auditing is not a part of the EU lexicon.

I think it has gone far beyond mission creep. Majority voting is progressing nicely and is the stated aim for all aspects of legislation.
It is the stated aim to have a common foreign policy.
Armed forces peacekeeping missions are already EU badged.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:33 AM

The mods can't deal with him because he posts from more than one IP address. Just don't bother with him.

Well the only way mr shaw would know this is because a moderator is talking out of school.

I connect to the internet exclusively via a cellular network.
When you use your carrier’s network, you’re using your carrier’s IP addresses, and they’re changing all of the time. Your private address connects you to the nearest cell tower. Your public address is one of many that connects your carrier’s network to the Internet.

Mr shaw full of shit and displaying his ignorance as usual.

However it does raise some interesting questions about privacy.
I guess data protection in the States is far more relaxed than in the UK, not that this particular issue concerns me.

Whether a moderator should be releasing this information is a matter for the Mods and Max to resolve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:43 PM

Rubbish. There is no mission creep in that direction without our say-so. We have considerable powers of veto as of now, but of course we will lose them and as such we risk the EU doing what your fearmongering suggests. I'll ask you in two or three years' time whether that makes you feel happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 06:27 PM

Dave, you went on to say: That would have made for some interesting conversations with the right.wing brexiteers on here!

I think most of the Brexiteers on here have been quite clear that the Single Market, in and of itself, was not necessarily a bad thing. The problem we saw (and continued to foresee) was the steady mission creep toward the centralised control of the whole European area.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 06:04 PM

"iain, please could you stop using terms like 'retarded and leftard'? i'm sure you have many other ways you can be abusive and spiteful without referring to people with different abilities to yourself.

sorry everyone, i can usually ignore this stuff but that really bugs me, is that why you do it iain? maybe it is useless to appeal to your better nature but i'll give it one more go..."

I wouldn't bother, Pete. He uses the term retarded and similar but he's not referring to people different to himself. He is actually referring to himself. Recognise that here we have a man (well, he uses a man's name but who knows?) who is a right-wing plant (notice that he never denies this, because he can't) and who is clearly mentally ill. The mods can't deal with him because he posts from more than one IP address. Just don't bother with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 05:45 PM

The section you highlighted, Nigel, contains the phrase "the perceived power grab". I'm sure you will note the word "perceived". Not a real power grab. Nothing actually happening. Just perceived. Exactly the same as it is now. You will also note that I said she was a devotee of the single market. Which is exactly what the article said. So just what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:34 PM

Margaret Thatcher was a big fan of the EU single market.
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/thatcher-papers-for-1988-reveal-her-deep-enthusiasm-for-the-single-market
That would have made for some interesting conversations with the right.wing brexiteers on here!

I started reading it. While the headline seems to support your contention, the opening paragraphs make it clear that Margaret Thatcher was a fan of the EU as it then was, not the EU it would become:

Her speechwriting files for Bruges, including drafts and contributions from outsiders, are among more than 40,000 pages of Lady Thatcher’s papers for the year 1988 being opened to the public at Churchill College from Monday.
They show that rather than acting as a call-to-arms for Eurosceptics and attacking the principles behind the single market – of which Thatcher was something of a devotee – her speech was more concerned with the perceived power grab by European Commission chief Jacques Delors, and a possible move to a more ‘federal’ European ‘super-state’.
Historian Chris Collins of the Margaret Thatcher Foundation, the only person to date to have read all 40,000 pages of material being released, said: “She wanted her speech to be about direction, rather than point scoring – and she edges back from attacking the Commission, approaching it in a more intellectual style.
“I know she was uncomfortable about the venue, but we are very lucky in that few of her speeches remain in such a complete form as this.
“When you read her papers for 1988, you see her sheer level of enthusiasm for the single market. She goes up hill and down dale with deep enthusiasm because this is practical Europe, this is how it works together. The role of speechwriter Hugh Thomas – a committed Europhile – is also crucial to consider when looking at this speech from a historical perspective.”
The section in bold illustrates exactly my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:40 PM

one of the things about my job is that disabled people are never abisive, never sarcastic, never cruel and will take people as they find them. they can teach us many things about how to deal with each other.

iain, please could you stop using terms like 'retarded and leftard'? i'm sure you have many other ways you can be abusive and spiteful without referring to people with different abilities to yourself.

sorry everyone, i can usually ignore this stuff but that really bugs me, is that why you do it iain? maybe it is useless to appeal to your better nature but i'll give it one more go