BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM

i think we are way past the point of the game where the victims of britain's imperial wars rise up with the great trees of sherwood and across the country, cut down for car parks and boxy wee houses for thatcher's zombie children, and sweep across the land behind ivor cutler on a unicorn.

'right everybody....i'm in charge for now so be quiet......'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 05:00 AM

Brexit won the referendum, Parliament voted to implement that decision.
The only reason we have the present chaos is because MPs value their
sinecure more than their honour.
They may have to revamp their cvs in the not too distant future.

I see tin cans   skipping   down the road and into the very long grass

and it shall come to pass
Hosea 8:7

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM

My MP voted for a no-deal (rejected by the House earlier) and for a variation of the Malthouse (explicitly taken back to the EU and trashed completely by them.) He voted against everything else.

Nice to see intelligent compromise at work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM

They are not even trying to hide it any more.

May: Vote for my proposal. It is good.
ERG: No chance

May: Vote for my proposal. Pretty please
ERG: No chance

May: Vote for my proposal and I'll give you chance of more power
ERG: OK then!

As big a bunch of self-serving twats that ever (dis)graced a government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 03:54 AM

Who is up for writing a new version of "The Vicar of Bray"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 03:29 AM

Well, nobody could accuse extreme-Right-Wing Tories like Jacob ("Call me Jake") Rich-Mong of putting country before party and their own personal wealth, could they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 08:40 PM

It's all bloody Tory games. I'll go if you'll vote for me. I'll vote for you if the Ulster fascists vote for you, otherwise I might not. I hate your deal but I'll vote for it anyway otherwise my constituents will think I'm betraying "the will of the people." I've dragged you down twice but goddammit I'll vote for you even though your shit stinks because the one thing that'll save the country might happen if I don't.

Anyone for principles?

Anyone for what is actually in the interests of the country?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 07:33 PM

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Rees Mogg has switched again again again. Now he's in line with the DUP. Too bad they can't delete print newspaper headlines.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 07:07 PM

Cross-posted with DMcG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 07:05 PM

But the SNP didn't vote on any of them except for the Margaret Beckett amendment. They are sure to weigh in at some stage. And the customs union didn't lose by large margin.

If you crunch the numbers, there were a lot of abstainers keeping their powder dry.

Meanwhile the DUP blew out of the water May's hopes for backing her deal. If Bercow even allows it to be moved.

Far from done and dusted. This was just a knock-out round.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:54 PM

Indeed all options were rejected, but not equally. There will be another vote on Monday, probably, and is is very likely that all options with, say, 150 or more voting against will not get anywhere. Options with say less than 50 adrift are much more likely to pass in future.

I would not be surprised to see May's deal with a confirmation vote being the winner in the end, partially because that does not cross any of May's red lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:47 PM

9.45pm update: MPs reject all eight Brexit alternative plans

Motion B) No deal - defeated by 400 votes to 160, majority 240.

Motion D) Common market 2.0 - defeated by 283 votes to 188, majority 95.

Motion H) Efta and EEA - defeated by 377 votes to 65, majority 312.

Motion J) Customs union - defeated by 272 votes to 264, majority eight.

Motion K) Labour's alternative plan - defeated by 307 votes to 237, majority 70.

Motion L) Revocation to avoid no-deal - defeated by 293 votes to 184, majority 109.

Motion M) Confirmatory public vote - defeated by 295 voted to 268, majority 27.

Motion O) Contingent preferential arrangements - defeated by 422 votes to 139, majority 283

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:46 PM

Only in Westminster Hall, not in the House, and there will be no vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:36 PM

Basically after 3 years of prevarication it is all as clear as mud.

I understand that after being told that the on-line propostion would be ignored by the government that the issue, ie reversing Article 50, will now be discussed in Parliament after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:34 PM

Yeah, Mudcat has been a complete pig for a couple of days. I'm glad it's not just me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 05:47 PM

I typed remain when I meant resign above. Sorry. This is my 4th time trying to say so - the site keeps timing out

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 05:37 PM

It is getting hard to keep track of all the U turns, but I think Boris declared May's deal an 8nacceptable straightjacket yesterday, that he would vote for it today and the with the DUP announcement it won't back or abstain, finds himself declaring he will back a deal the hardliners hate that may not take place at all. Sounds as if he is spinning so fast he has stabbed himself in the back.

Meanwhile, it looks as if Bercow will only allow the deal to come back if is significantly amended, probably by including something Parliament selects via indicative vote process, even though May would not commit to doing that. Meanwhile also May promises to remain if her deal (which she might not be able to vote on) is passed; and if has been amended she may not think it her deal anyway. Meanwhile the ERG is splitting with a number saying they will back her vote (which may not be voted on and if amended by, say, adding in a confirmatory referendum they may now be unable to support again
)

However both houses have amended the departure date so we are definitely NOT leaving on Friday - sorry, Nigel!

Everyone clear?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 10:02 AM

I don't think it does, Mossback, but he is confused about the difference between changing your mind and being given the opportunity to change your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 09:59 AM

At least he HAS a mind, apparently unlike the vast bulk of people who brainlessly voted for brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 09:54 AM

No, but it makes you a jackass.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 08:30 AM

I see no evidence of Backwoodsman changing his mind. Does this make him undemocratic?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM

As I've posted elsewhere today...

David Davis (failed former BrexShit Secretary) in 2012 - "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy"

That simple sentence is the absolute answer to all of the confuscation, whataboutery, and plain, simple bullshit from the Brexit-Brigade.

End of.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 02:05 AM

Moreover, once Parliament has decided something and passed a law, they can revisit it at any time to see if it needs to be revised. This means the fact most MPs voted to invoke article 50 has little weight: what matters is whether they still think the process they put in place.is delivering what they intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 01:15 AM

nigel and ian ,it is the law that parliament has the last say , this datesback to the time of oliver cromwell, you can think what you like but this is a fact, and the referendum was asdvisory with parliameny having the last say that is the law of the land

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 08:40 PM

I pay my plumber to service my boiler, install new taps and fix leaks. He's not perfect; he's been banned from driving for repeated excessive speeding offences. He managed to flood my kitchen once last year, but he's an excellent chap who makes mistakes and I'll keep him coming. The man who sweeps my chimneys and who maintains my stoves was fined £600 for driving without insurance. He managed to breach a certain building regulation once when he signed off the new wood-burning stove he'd installed for us, but it was a misunderstanding of the regs and there's no hazard or problem that can't be easily fixed if I ever sell the house. I'll be booking him again in the next few weeks. I don't care for my Tory MP at all but I accept the democratic process that elected him. I don't actually see him at his multifaceted work but I'm reasonably confident that he's fairly dutiful, even though he consistently supports policies that I disagree with. The thing is, he got elected to decide on those policies whereas I wasn't. He's far from perfect and I wouldn't expect him to be. Many MPs have been known to stretch points on their expenses forms and a few need to grow up sexually, and it would be nice if they put public interest above watching their backs. Same with some bank managers, doctors, professors, vicars and headteachers and a lot of others who we should feel are worthy of respect but who are somewhat less in the public eye than politicians. Thing is, we get the politicians we deserve. But suggest political education in schools and all of a sudden, according to Tories, every teacher becomes a potential red under the bed. So we have an electorate who are politically ignorant unless they educate themselves as best they can (given the generally warped and skewed resources at their disposal), and that is a small minority (have you asked those random boozers yet what a customs union is?) If every MP was as bloody useless as some suggest, we wouldn't have a country. They have a job to do, and the most that any of us see of it is their pronouncements on the telly. The tip of the iceberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 06:12 PM

We pay MPs to make vital choices for the country from a position of knowledge and intimate understanding of domestic and international issues.

R U 4 REAL ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:37 PM

"Hoi polloi" is derogatory. That's the sense in which Nigel used it and it's why it's not my choice of words for the people of this country. "Forty million unelected individuals whose credentials are entirely unchecked and which in most cases wouldn't bear close examination (next time you're down the pub, ask a random handful of people what a customs union is)" is what I said. Some of those forty million will be expert plasterers, builders, plumbers, bus drivers, electricians, orthopaedic surgeons and university lecturers. We pay them to be accomplished in those fields. We pay MPs to make vital choices for the country from a position of knowledge and intimate understanding of domestic and international issues. I don't want to ask an MP to do my sink replacement and I don't want to ask my plumber to decide the fate of my children and grandchildren.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:27 PM

I cannot believe I would say anything complimentary about MPs. You must show me where I said such an obvious untruth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:13 PM

'Lying, cheating' conniving.............'      


Surely this cannot come from the posts of one who told us we should have more respect for our politicians?

Or was it the other one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 03:51 PM

Please ignore the above I was playing about in preview and forgot to tick the box

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 03:50 PM

font=color"yellow>CLARE; I'm sure the lady you referred to has no opinion on the matter

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 02:51 PM

Hoi polloi = the rank and file, the populace, the public, the people, the multitude,

It is also worth pointing out that MPs refer to themselves in the house as honourable. Lying cheating conniving is a more accurate prefix in my book.
If they cannot be trusted who has any confidence in them and who will re elect them.
What does a professional MP bring to the table?
They have never accomplished anything and have no knowledge outside their little Westminster bubble. Typical of the left to have complete faith in such people. They will be advocating 5 year plans next!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 01:16 PM

"...Although "hoi polloi" wouldn't be my choice of words..."
Wear it as a badge of honour Steve - you need to take into consideration the characters of the people who use it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 01:12 PM

...Although "hoi polloi" wouldn't be my choice of words...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM

That is precisely my viewpoint, Nigel. We PAY them to become more au fait than the rest of us. Or why not take YOUR viewpoint to its logical conclusion: let's have a referendum on everything. And don't forget to ask that random selection of pub punters what a customs union is. One bar where you'll get the correct answer every time would be the one in the House of Commons. I don't fancy your chances anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:19 AM

"So the hoi polloi are insufficiently knowledgeable to decide on a vote on whether to remain in the EU"
They're apparently not to be trusted enough to be allowed to confirm their decision now that the destination has become clear Nigel
The driver has firmly decided the route (or should that be rout?) on this Magical Mystery Tour from day one and most of them are sending their own PERSONAL LUGGAGE off on a safer one as soon as they saw what was heading their way
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 08:24 AM

The quickest way to undermine parliamentary democracy is to wrestle away from its remit the most crucial issue in front of it since WW2 and put it into the hands of over forty million unelected individuals whose credentials are entirely unchecked and which in most cases wouldn't bear close examination

So the hoi polloi are insufficiently knowledgeable to decide on a vote on whether to remain in the EU, but the MPs (who were elected by that same electorate) are!

What an interesting viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 08:11 AM

The missing 30000
Interesting bit of news manipulation in the press this morning
The English Times Murdoch bum-wipe reports that 50,000 Irish jobs will be lost thanks to Brexit while the Irish Times and the lady who wrote the report being interview on the radio claims the figure to be 80,000
It seems the right wing press is about as numerate adept as is Britain's leaders

CLARE; I'm sure the lady you referred to has no opinion on the matter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

A few Brexiteers (Rees-Mogg, Fabricant for example) are now saying they are minded to vote for May's deal. Sounds like they are prepared to live with the backstop and the UK being a vassal state after all then, rather than let the people confirm that they want that rather than to have a voice in EU rules and regulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM

We elect MPs assuming they have a degree of integrity. At the last election both Tory and Labour candidates stood on a joint party ticket of leave the EU.
How do you explain away their sudden transmutation into staunch remainers post the election? Did they encounter kryptonite in the Commons or did grubby job security take precedence over honesty and integrity.

You talk turkeys when in reality they are canards in a feeble attempt to justify their abysmal behaviour.

We need a vote of confidence and an election and to fight the EU elections and start all over and have representatives we can trust.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 06:15 AM

The quickest way to undermine parliamentary democracy is to wrestle away from its remit the most crucial issue in front of it since WW2 and put it into the hands of over forty million unelected individuals whose credentials are entirely unchecked and which in most cases wouldn't bear close examination (next time you're down the pub, ask a random handful of people what a customs union is). You can then compound this error by staging a six-month campaign of lies before putting it to a ballot giving a binary choice expressed in crudely simplistic terms.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again: the decisions in Parliament to hold the referendum and enact Article 50 were made by a body of MPs which overwhelmingly supports staying in the EU. They voted the way they did because they were put in the position of a turkey being forced to choose one of two kinds of Christmas: allow the UK to make the disastrous exit from the EU but keep your job, or oppose the referendum/Article 50 in the interests of the country and lose your job. So, with few exceptions, they decided to do politics in the face of a populist surge kicked off by Cameron instead of putting the interests of the country first. And, if it ever comes to a vote on whether to revoke Article 50, which everyone with more than one brain cell knows is the only sane solution to this, they'll do the same again. It has nothing to do with "respecting the will of the people" or "refusing to betray democracy" and everything to do with keeping their jobs. And that is the ultimate disrespect for the people of this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:41 AM

We all had a giggle over the cartoon depicting a lorry leaving Fishguard to be confronted with two adjacent road signs reading "You are now leaving Fishguard" and "Please join this queue for The Channel Tunnel"

and of course the returning traffic carrying 40% of the food to Claire will face the exact same problems- THAT should wipe the smirk off your face!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:34 AM

For the Tory party leadership contests Tory MPs select two candidates for the membership to vote for.
The monarchy appoints the party leader of the major party to be PM.
The PM selects ministers.
The majority party forms the government, or failing a majority a coalition. That is democracy.
For the rank and file backbenchers of both parties to commandeer Parliament for their own nefarious purposes breaks both convention and democracy.

You can try and explain it away however you like but the process betrays democracy, the same as overturning the referendum results.
Bliar Blair should be charged with treason for conspiring with the EU against the clearly stated wishes of the UK majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:15 AM

Last night I spoke to a Northern Ireland friend who moves regularly between the Republic and the Six Counties
The discussion centred on the problem of driving licences, Green cards and the steady destabilisation of North Eastern businesses - and that's before Britain has made up its mind whether it wants a divorce and whether they are prepared to pay the alimony for the human and social damage it is going to cause both sides of the border
The damage it is going to cost Britain is apparently not worth a thought by them at the helm of the rudderless boat that Brexit now is recognised as
We all had a giggle over the cartoon depicting a lorry leaving Fishguard to be confronted with two adjacent road signs reading "You are now leaving Fishguard" and "Please join this queue for The Channel Tunnel"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:05 AM

Just for the moment, I am not talking about Brexit specifically, but how our system works in terms of democracy.

We agree, I hope, that MPs are elected based on the democratic choice of the constituents of their seat? True, safe seats and other forms of bias make this less clear cut than we might wish, but I think we can grant MPs are democratically elected.

Party leaders are elected by members of the respective party, but not by the public at large. This is a very weak form of democracy because the vast majority of the country is excluded by virtue of not being members of that party.

The government is appointed by the PM, which is normally the party leader. So while the MPs are democratically elected their appointment to a ministry is not democratic at all. Most recently - accelerating massively under Tony Blair - unelected "special advisors" have been given roles in government, completely excluding any democratic component.

So in my book, it is pretty clear that the Parliament is democratically elected but the government is not.   For that reason, sovereignty lies in Parliament, not government. Put another way, when asked whether the government's role is to serve Parliament, or Parliament's role is to serve government, I go with the former.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 04:23 AM

History reveals that all empires have a time span, the European empire, imo is no different, it may prolong its lifetime by making internal reforms but its days are numbered.
However, the UK leaving right now, is imo going to leave toimmediate hardship for many in the uk and western europe, we have a choice between european multi national capitalism and non european multinational capitalism.
if i was able to vote right now it would not be for pie in the sky, but to remain. the u will feck itself up in time but hopefully after my lifetime

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 04:07 AM

The precedent you mention is in reality the fact that the mother of all Parliaments has just whelped a devil.
A majority voted for brexit.
A majority voted for article 50
A majority of MPs stood for re-election on a party ticket of brexit.

Now the cabal of remainers have overturned the will of the executive.

If MPs can overturn the executive perhaps 17.5,000,000 brexiteers can overturn the country.

A very dangerous precedent has been set and the loser is democracy.

No matter how you wish to dress it up the will of the majority has been thwarted, as has democracy. For Britain this puts us in potentially dangerous territory.
It is a battle between nationalism and multinational driven globalism. A battle fought in America where Trump won.
    In the EU their is a chance that Macron will win, he is already bleating about Britain remaining in the EU is destroying his vision of a United States of Europe.

There is far far more at stake than simply membership of the EU.
Time a few woke up to the true agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 06:22 PM

So the amendment has just been passed saying Parliament will have control of the agenda on Wednesday. Depending on the mechanisms chosen to try to find a common way forward could be indecisive and just add to the confusion, but it might come up with something. But whether it does or not, I think the precident that the executive must in some circumstances be subservient to Parliament is a very good thing indeed. If there is a majority for the ruling party it has negligible effect but when either party is a minority it stops it behaving as if it had a majority. That seems right to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/05/12/to-properly-explain-the-eus-bendy-bananas-rules-yes-theyre-real/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:05 AM

Squirrelling around desperately to find and ridicule examples of arcane EU "rules" (which are generally mythological in any case when examined a bit more closely) is something I thought we'd long ago got out of our systems. EU rules and regulations are generally arrived at by consensus, and the UK has accepted over 95% of them without demur. We've abstained on some of those 5% and opposed very few. You don't achieve agreement and harmony across 28 countries by trying to bring in silly rules. Now being made to import beef pumped up with hormones and chickens still riddled with Salmonella (due to lousy husbandry) even after being washed in chlorine, IS something to worry about.