Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?

Subject: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 03:23 PM

There's a Wikipedia article titled List of folk songs by Roud number that serves as a pretty good index of the folk songs covered by Wikipedia articles. I've often wondered about these articles, and how to participate in creating and editing them. I've succeeded in adding a correction here and there, but can't really figure out the process of creating an article or adding substantial changes.

I'm sure there must be some Mudcatters involved in creating these articles, which are generally very good. Could you give us some how-to tips?

Yes, I know there are some people who think Wikipedia is horrible, but it's only as good or bad as contributors make it. I've found it to be quite good most of the time, and I think the give-and-take of guided group creation gives pretty good control of the accuracy of the content. I acknowledge the validity of criticism of Wikipedia, but I don't want to talk about it in this thread. I want to know how we can contribute and make it accurate and valuable.

I think I know enough about songs now that I should be able to make a contribution to the content of the song articles, but I can't figure out how to do it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM

To edit an already existing article click on edit and away you go. You don't even need to create an account (who wants to do a thing like that ...? :-) ), though you can if you want. You may have to learn a bit of coding if you want to add links or anything, but it is really simple. Have a look once you're in the editor and you will see how to do it.

Adding a new article is different.

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 04:07 PM

If you edit without an account your IP tracking information follows the article. It's a good idea to set up a Wikipedia account if you're serious about editing or adding new.

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 04:17 PM

I'm wondering about content - I've got the technical part down, and I have been able to edit in minor corrections and additions.

For example, on Es ist ein Ros entsprungen, a friend wanted to include the fact that Pete Seeger wrote new words in 1973 as “Of Time and Rivers Flowing.” He also wanted to say that those lyrics appear in Where Have All the Flowers Gone: A Singalong Memoir, pg 224 - but his addition got deleted, and he wonders why.

Any thoughts?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 04:53 PM

Dunno mosdtly, Joe but Wikipedia does log revisions as well as having "talk" for articles.

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 10:43 PM

Right. You might find an online squabble going behind the scenes when information is added, deleted, and changed frequently. Moderators (!) will sometimes lock down a site when this starts happening.

There used to be a way to see who was behind some of the changes: SEE WHO'S EDITING WIKIPEDIA - DIEBOLD, THE CIA, A CAMPAIGN but evidently the site was taken down because it was expensive to run. Virgil Griffith was the author - perhaps he has other useful tips.

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 12:08 AM

I recently saw a weird (silly) comment on an Australian folk site & asked the club's webmaster who is also a Wikipedia editor or something like that, if he could fix it. He said it was a bit of vandalism & removed it.

sandra

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 10:22 AM

If you want to create new articles you should certainly have an account to show you're serious. Fill in your user page to demonstrate some authority. You should get a 'global' username so it's the same on all language sites; that may be the default now - I don't know.

I've created a few pages - but years ago, in more trusting times. I often copied an existing article with a suitable format and edited it. I used to copy the entire article code into a text editor, edit it offline, then post it up and preview it before publishing. I'm not sure whether you could do that these days - wikipedia has become stricter. (To see the complete code of an article, add #/editor/all to the URL.)

There are guides and howtos in wikipedia, there must be one for creating articles, so I would start there. I think there is a sandbox to play in. Or you could just jump straign in...

Choose a name for the entry (get that right) and construct a URL for it, such as

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songs_by_xxxxxxxx

One of the options you then get is to start a new article with the wizard. I've never used it, but give it a try.

The motto of Wikipedia is, or used to be, Be bold! Don't worry too much about the rules - provided the editors think the article is worthwhile and you know the subject they'll probably help by formatting it and adding stuff like categories. If you get criticism, don't let it get you down.

You could create a basic article using the wizard, just the introduction say, then copy in and edit single sections from similar articles, such as the list part of the Roud songs article.

When editing articles, you may have to tread more carefully. I've had cases where people have reverted an edit of mine - but their edit summary should say why. I've reverted edits on 'my' pages; they're not really mine, of course, but I created them because I know a lot about the subject and I don't want trivia added! Other people do the same - I've come across some very posessive and stubborn users. Look at an article's history: what sort of edits are rejected and why?

I don't see the edit referred to on that Es ist ein Ros entsprungen page - maybe it was long ago. But I can see that 'yet another' example of the use of a song might not be welcome. You can re-do an edit, explaining why it's worth including. You can engage with the other user on their talk page. But unless you feel very strongly it's not worth getting into a 'revert battle'.

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: GUEST,Calum
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 10:32 AM

The main rule that new Wikipedia editors fall foul of nowadays is that it's not enough for your information to be correct - you must be able to link the information to a particular source of adequate reliability.

This can be rather frustrating, as most of us know our specialist subject rather better than the books. But it's worth putting in the effort to source things properly.

Having your work edited can be a frustrating business, especially when it's wrong. Don't get angry about it, just build a case and remain friendly. And walk away from bouts of madness: people can get more than a little irrational about these things.

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 12:37 PM

I fond the easiest way to edit is to copy & paste anything that looks like I want. then tinker.
I did start a page on William Main Doerflinger and had it rejected on the grounds that the first moderator knew nothing about Folk Music. But persistence paid off.

Main problems were:
1) they don't like anything that looks like a copyright violation. So Youtube links need careful thought.
2) Internal (ie Wiki) links go in the body of the page and external links do not.

And no, I can't remember how I initiated the page but it can't have been too torturous. And once you publish, people can edit and are, in the main (pun intended), helpful & constructive.

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 12:42 PM

Looks good. Did you initiate the page, or was it a stub (is that what they still call the pages that have no content?)

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 12:53 PM

Story of a Wiki page evolving (on Mudcat)

I probably used the wizard to get started and Tony Rees improved it a lot thereafter.

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 01:11 PM

Worth reading though the early history of that Doerflinger article, from its creation. (This link might show that. Click each edit to show what was added/removed/commented.)

There was no approval process when I last created an article.

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 04:04 PM

Hi Joe, I have had some experience creating articles on Wikipedia (around 60 - full list here), and contributed to many more, and have learned a little each time. Here is an attempt to distill most of what I have learned.

First, get yourself a Wikipedia User Account - you can create or edit without one but will not be taken very seriously.

Next, you have to address in your own mind the wikipedia "notability" requirement for the topic you have in mind. WP does not want (for example) an article on every person or object in the world, just ones for which a case of "notability" can be made, and defended if required. The general policy is set out here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability . In general, if you can find existing WP articles on similar subjects, at the same level of "granularity", then that is an encouraging (but not infallible) rule. Bear in mind that when you create the article, you will need to cite "reliable" external sources for the information that, by implication, also consider the subject "notable" (an entry in another encyclopedia is a good start).

Next, think of the best title for your proposed article, bearing in mind that WP is for a general, not specialist, audience. If not obvious that the title is a song, you might like to add the suffix "(song)", for example.

Next, search WP for your desired title. E.g. if you do a search on the (fictitious) title "The Fishpaste Song" (OK, I just made that up), you will get a message like: "You may create the page "The Fishpaste Song", but consider checking the search results below to see whether the topic is already covered." If you click on the search term in that sentence - now highlighted in red, to show it is presented as a link that does not yet exist - you will get to an edit form that will allow you to create the page and save it as a new article.

To see the style of WP text behind-the-scenes, go to another article that resembles yours in as many respects as possible and click on "edit". This will show you the WP conventions and code which make *that* article look like it does. (Of course different editors can do things in different ways so there may be some variation between styles - hopefully you have picked a good one).

Once your article is complete - with cited sources, no direct plagiarism, and other things to keep the WP community happy - you can save it (best to do a "Preview" first and fix any errors) and it goes live straightaway. It will then appear on a list of "articles for review" and will then get reviewed at some point - e.g. typically around a month in my experience - by an editor who may change it, improve it, or (a couple of times for me) enter a discussion about the article's notability or lack thereof, on the article's talk page. Sometimes this gets a bit picky or heated, especially if the notability is a bit arguable or borderline in some people's view. For example I had a problem with a tetchy editor on my page on the Australian guitarist Ian Date, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ian_Date - he deleted my discography (evidence of notability) on a pretext, and then claimed the subject was not notable. So, sometimes you have to get into an argument, and also accept the possibility you may lose as well, and have to walk away. But I have not lost yet...

So there is my sage advice for now. To see a full list of my articles, edits and other contributions - some better than others - you can go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tony_1212 .

Just bear in mind that engagement with Wikipedia is a little bit involved (learning the syntax, principles etc.) so is only really worthwhile if you plan to carry on as a contributor, at least for a few articles. You can always walk away but it does require commitment of a bit of time, especially if you want to keep track of articles and discussions arising, and participate in attempts to improve them over time.

Good luck! - Tony

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 04:41 PM

Further to the comment from DaveRo RE history of the Wikipedia Doerflinger article, the full history is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_Main_Doerflinger...

If you take a look, the page was started by Mr Red, then I decided (or offered) to improve it further, and got a bit sucked in researching material I previously was completely unaware of. A bit like researching for an undergraduate essay I guess... Still I enjoyed the process and now know a lot more about the subject than when I started; plus it's a place for others to post additional information I may not have come across (a bit like a mudcat discussion!) but for a different / more general audience I guess.

The moral is perhaps that you can get a bit hooked on this stuff, but only if you want to - and know when to stop!

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: Wikipedia Song Articles - how to do it?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 05:41 PM

Also of course, I should point you or others of a similar inclination here:

Wikipedia:Your first article

Best - Tony