Where Have all the Folkies Gone

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM

Having spent 20 of the last 30 years in Ireland, I am always fascinated by the view that the country is some kind of lost world of traditional music & that CCE are some kind of inspiration to all.

Government money to CCE is not always spent usefully, and often misappropriated- I have heard many anecdotes about this, one an offer to 'take over' a small thriving village festival by the 'brown envelope' method, made to a dedicated, but fortunately altruistic organiser, so be careful what you for, money isn't always a help.
It seems to me that even without the cash, the music is thriving in Britain in certain areas (Vic Smith mentioned Sussex in an earlier thread) just as it is in Ireland (Jim Carroll similarly in Clare) so the folkies are still there, even if not in the clubs.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: leeneia
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 11:58 AM

:-)

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 11:39 AM

I think we may have finally discovered the secret to the perpetual motion machine.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 10:54 AM

The CCE spends what money they get funding their own image and weird take on Irish music
They have driven more young people away from Irish music than they have caught their interest with their competition ethos (we've covered this far too many times to make it an issue here Dick)
Their seizure of Clontarf branch's new premises says enough about what they are about than anything else

EFDSS seem to have found the direction they wish to taake but it has little to do with folk music
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM

The Irish government finances tradtional music through CCE, AND they are PARTLY responsible for the interest among young people. I do have criticisdms of CCE but they are partly responsible for young interest as is also Wille clancy summer school, meanwhileEFDSS appears to be a a ship with no one at the helm drifting rudderless into some back water

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 09:31 AM

"Where this thread started: dismal CD sales of trad material."
Stradling ventured some reasons of why them might be happening - the EFDSS's somewhat schizophrenic approach to the music they have taken responsibility for over the last century plus featured
I have taken it further and intend to expand on that by covering what is happening in the world of research - all part of the same subject as far as I'm concerned
Jim

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 09:00 AM

Where this thread started: dismal CD sales of trad material.

If the folk club scene was really failing to meet a massive demand for it, those sales ought to be skyrocketing.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:28 AM

Just for now
Definition and 'pigeonholing' are very much a part of this discussion - if you advertising you are selling something and then try sell them something other than what you advertised, people stop coming to your shop - that's what has happened on the club scene and unless you do something about it it will continue to damage folk scene
inging in pubs is both restrictive top the singer and intrusive to the regular customers (the chances of finding a pub where this is not the case is extremely difficult, as we have found)
Our folk song repertoire includes long narrative songs, particularly "intrusive" ballads
It is unreasonable to expect pub regulars to remain silent through the length of an average ballad or song and it is damn near impossible to make a half decent ballad to a background of pub noise
That's why the folk scene evolved in booked rooms adapted specifically to sing in
A for festivals - the ones I have attended are for showcasing established singers - where singing sessions take place have been usually in the circumstances described above
They need to be additions to the club-based scene, not replacements for it
Folk clubs evolved as community based venues relying on local talent and energy, grass-root venues rather than concerts - with all the fantastic advantages that brought
Lose that and you've lost a great deal of the reason for singing folk songs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM

It doesn't avoid the fact at all, Jim. I specifically mentioned that Ireland is doing a good job of getting youngsters back into folk. I've done my bit BTW. 3 out of my 5 kids are fans of traditional English folk and one of the other 2 is really into world music. The final one isn't into any folk but married a lass that is :-)

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: GUEST,Jim Bainbridge
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 06:32 AM

I think you're right, Dave the Gnome- young folks have gone elsewhere- thriving informal sessions, festivals, clubs of various kinds, not to mention the time-waster of social media (another form of SM behaviour (IMHO)- they have different ideas
Older folk do continue attending folk clubs, I believe, although I haven't done any recently & haven't lived anywhere near one for thirty years- I probably would be very particular about which one I attended as there is a huge variety of approach. Both Jim & the Sandman are aware of my preferences & I've no wish to get into that argument again!
No I'll just carry on doing the very occasional folk club & festival, but my preference will always be outside that, preferably in a non-folk social context, like a good pub or daycentre.
On the subject of folk songs & drawing lines, I'm totally with patriot's recent post & Jim's description of folk songs being written at some stage & then heading out into the world & changing/developing via the people is an interesting one.

I'm of an age where some pop songs still told a story (one definition of a ballad) & have sung such as 'She wears Red feathers' in my own way with melodeon accompaniment since I first heard Guy Mitchell's version. It may be non PC but that's irrelevant here. My current version bears little resemblance to the original 78 so has its progress through the folk process (mainly me- I am a person) made it a folk song?
I also sing 'that great old song 'As time goes by' but not from the Casablanca version. No, there's another stage- I got it from the Boldon Banjo Band- my uncle Tom played piano with them in the Boldon Lad pub for many years. Even more folk process, and again developed by the folk (ie ME) so again is it now a Folk song?- not that I give a damn what it is, I just hate all this pigeon holing & line drawing, it's prescriptive & am not happy about all this definition- one reason why some folkies have gone elsewhere, TO GET BACK TO THE SUBJECT.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 06:08 AM

"I think, by and large, the reduction in numbers is due to an aging population."
The Numbers began to reduce sharply thirty odd years ago Dave - we were in our prime then
Even if it were true, it avoids the fact that, unlike Ireland, the UK is failing miserably to attract young people in sufficient enough numbers to make uo for the ageing process
The answer lies in those involved so pointing the finger is just passing the buck
For a long time asking for a grant for traditional music was pushing an already open door - those working at the music proved that the cultural importance of the music and got the support - once the enthusiasts took the music seriously, the Arts bodies followed
Now Irish music has become an important part of the Irish economy by drawing visitors in to listen, play, learn and research - this one-street town on the West Coast survived the 'Banker's Folly' recession by being recognised as being 'the home of Irish Traditional Music'
You can make your venues places for a knees-up or where you put bums on seats, but I believe the future of traditional music lies in its cultural and historical importance
Ther is no reason on earth why you can't accept and work at that and enjoy singing, playing and listening at the same time
There's little hope of that happening in the UK since the EFDSS seems to have lost the plot (as confirmed by Stradling's letter) and even the researchers seem to have decided that there's nothing special about Folk song, that it's no different from the oupourings of the commercial music buisnesses and that it never was music created by the folk (as was once established by a centuries worth of research) anyway
The UK folk scene seems hell-bent on self-harm, from where I stand
Jim

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:48 AM

I think, by and large, the reduction in numbers is due to an aging population. Whichever folk club I go to nowadays I am often one of the younger ones. And I'm 66! If we cannot get youngsters involved the participants will naturally die off :-( Unfortunately I don't have the answer to that one but Jim has mentioned that Ireland's program to get the young more involved is working. I can't see the present government doing anything to help with that though. They couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:35 AM

"We're out at the folk clubs"
The question is about whether what goes on in the clubs if 'Folk' and if the fact that by and large it isn't, whether that has caused the sharp decline in numbers and the exodus of enthusiasts
Anybody with a bucket of whitewash and a brush can call themselves a 'folk club organiser' on today's folk scene, in my experience
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:04 AM

The singers club was prescriptive.finally MacColl was a good performer and an excellent songwriter but his attempted scottish accent was not very asccurate

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM

Where have all the folkies gone?
Gone to folk clubs every one
When will they ever learn?

:D tG

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 04:46 AM

'That you can't be bothered to read the posts says what needs to be said, I think - there certainly isn't too much to read as far as Im concerned'

I've been out to folk clubs four out of the last five nights.
Where Have all the Folkies gone - on Mudcat?
We're out at the folk clubs

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 04:37 AM

It was a practice for the residents
MacColl often advised singers to sing in their own accents - that makes sense to me
I have no intention of falling into o of your Alice in Wonderland rabbit holes bu one more point
You don't insult people by trying to imitate peoples accents - invariably you become a source of amusement - we used to call them 'Mickey-Mouse singers" - Tim Lyons once described them as "Glochamorra singers"
You do far more damage to yourself by imitating accents that are not yours
You need to hand around in the bar after someone who has attempted an 'Oirish' accent has just left
Over and out ick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 04:02 AM

I am not caling anyone a liar, my quote was directly from peggys interview with colin irwin, there was a rule in the singers club. further more i knew of two singers who were approached outside of the singers club and were criticised by macColl for singning bessis smith songs,
jim , you are trying to rewrite history.Irepeat the quote from Peggy herself which ilustrates that there was a rule and the club was prescriptive
DOubtless contributing to that stereotype is the ban imposed by Peggy and Ewan at the club they were running in London in the early days of the folk revival on anyone performing material not of their own musical culture or heritage. Originally triggered by a heavily Americanised set at the club by Long John Baldry, it continues to inspire animated debate to this day. Peggy, who readily concedes that MacColl himself was singing American songs when she first met him, is unrepentant about their stance and sees no dichotomy in her current mash-ups with Broadcaster.

“I sing Scottish songs in the bath tub because they are so beautiful but I wouldn’t sing them on stage because I don’t feel qualified. I can’t pronounce them properly. I’d have to live up there for a long time. I’ve heard enough English and Scottish people singing Woody Guthrie and Leadbelly – and I was brought up with those songs – to know that I mustn’t sing Scottish songs in public. It would be too painful for the Scots to listen to

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 03:31 AM

"Jim, performers in the club had to sing in their own accents and songs from their own background,"
No they didn't Dick
I was never asked to sing in a Liverpool accent in my life - this is a complete distortion of what the club did - nor was I ever expected to confine my repertoire to se shanties
This is typical of the myths that surrounded MacColl and the club
When Lomax came to Britain Ewan, Bert and the rest were singing American songs - I have a recording of MacColl singing 'Sixteen Tons' here somewhere
Lomax suggested that if the clubs were going tto mean anything to British people they needed to examine the British repertoire - MacColl and Lloyd took his advice and began to devote their activities to the British and Irish repertoires
The scene moved away from being Guthrie wannabes to exploring our indigenous traditions - it worked
The problem arose again a few years later when some singers wanted to become Bobbie Bleaters or Joanie Clones
If you find that 'restrictive' that's your prerogative, personally I believe it not pretending what you are not
I sing Scots songs - dozens of them - and Irish ones - I always have; but I restrict them to the ones I can Anglicise comfortably, not becaus of any rule-book but because I can't get them to work for me in a phony accent
Nobody ever stopped me singing in th Singers Club - Pat and I even shared an evening with Ewan and Peg one night; both of us, especially Pat, who, (according to Ewan), was a great ballad singer with a repertoire of Scots ballads
Your post is somewat contradictory - you appear to be arguing against yourself

You know all this - we've discussed it before
You've read Peggy's letter to The Living Tradition apologising for her reaction to the singer in Walthamstowe trying to sound like a black chain-gang convict
Every time you make this statement you call Peggy a liar - I'll pass on her address if you want to do it personally (not true of course, Peggy has enough to cope with)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:15 PM

Jim, performers in the club had to sing in their own accents and songs from their own background, or did that only apply to the residents ,nevertheless that is a rule.here in her own words in an article by colin irwin she explains this RULE
DOubtless contributing to that stereotype is the ban imposed by Peggy and Ewan at the club they were running in London in the early days of the folk revival on anyone performing material not of their own musical culture or heritage. Originally triggered by a heavily Americanised set at the club by Long John Baldry, it continues to inspire animated debate to this day. Peggy, who readily concedes that MacColl himself was singing American songs when she first met him, is unrepentant about their stance and sees no dichotomy in her current mash-ups with Broadcaster.

“I sing Scottish songs in the bath tub because they are so beautiful but I wouldn’t sing them on stage because I don’t feel qualified. I can’t pronounce them properly. I’d have to live up there for a long time. I’ve heard enough English and Scottish people singing Woody Guthrie and Leadbelly – and I was brought up with those songs – to know that I mustn’t sing Scottish songs in public. It would be too painful for the Scots to listen to.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:05 PM

" the one i knew was that it was prescriptive."
It was not and it had no "rules"
There were expectations of competence and material if you wre a resident, but beyond that there were no "rules"
As Peggy said in her letter to 'The Living Tradition' "The only expectations that the Club has was confined to the residents"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:57 PM

Further more the singers club had rules but if one went there you would hear songs that are generally known as folk songs, there would not be people singing buddy holly songs

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:41 PM

" bemoaning the fact that you cannot go to a folk club and hear folk songs "
Without hearing ANY folk songs Dave
"Anthony John Clarke"
I'd never heard of him until I just googled him - pleasant enough but little to do with the narrative folk song Northern Ireland is renowned for
He wansn't the type I was referring to
Last Time I was at the club at C# House Cellar we were treated to someone reading the words of Buddy Holly songs from a phone
I have never used the term unacceptable - my complaint is that non fok songs have more otr less driven the traditional songs away - acculturation, I think is the technical term
There has never been a problem with contemporary songs a long as they fit easily in with traditional ones
omeone came into the Singers Club one night and gane Ewan and Peg a first edition set of Child - instead of raffling it, the Club ran a songwriting competition - John Pole won (the bastard!!)
If yhou can't see the difference between what I am saying and what you are, it reall is a waste of time us talking I'm sad to say

Regarding Sweet Thamas -
A highlight of last Sunday in Dublin was to hear a youngish woman sing it beautifully- as well as I've heard it for a long time - she sang it unaccompanied
If you can't manage to accompany it - don't bother - it doesn't need it
Jim

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:39 PM

The singers club had a reputation, the one i knew was that it was prescriptive.although to be fair as performers the residents all had very good reputations as performers
ok, i have listened to the performer you mentioned, Dave, i am not sure the songs i listened to are folk songs, however he is a good performer of his comedy songs and other songs, personally i would rather listen to Martin Carthy who does sing folk songs, but that is personal taste, and no detriment to the perfomer you mentioned.
What does annoy me are the less competent singer songwriters who are not american and sing in false american accents.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:03 PM

Just as an example, one of my favourite acts is Anthony John Clarke. He writes most of his own material, based on his life and upbringing in the North of Ireland with some, but not all, of his work based on life there including the troubles. Now, how am I, a mere novice compared to you, know whether he is acceptable in folk clubs or just a wannabe pop star who can only make it by abusing the folk scene?

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 01:53 PM

I have been listening, Jim. Just not understanding. On the one hand you are bemoaning the fact that you cannot go to a folk club and hear folk songs yet on the other you say that MacColl's songs, which you have said are not folk songs, are acceptable at folk clubs. If you went to a folk club and heard nothing but Ewan MacColl songs you will have, by your own admission, not heard any folk songs. Yet you seem quite happy with that. I think it is something that will never get resolved here. It needs an evening in a pub with good music in the background and a good long chat over a bottle of something tasty :-)

One day, maybe. In the meanwhile you will just have to be patient with me and explain why some non-folk songs are acceptable yet others are not and who decides which is which.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 01:40 PM

"If Ewan's songs are not folk songs then, does that mean that performing them at folk clubs is assisting the demise of folk music?"
You really have not been listening have you Dave ?
MacColl and those around him were not antiquarians who claimed that only folk songs should be performed on the scene - on the contrary, the argument was always that if this happened the clubs would be no mor than museums
MacColl used the tradition to create new songs - more than any other singer on the scene
Peggy produced 20 books of songs (around 20 songs per book) made up of contributions from singers and songwriters from all over the English-speaking world, as far afield as the US and Australia   
As far as I know, none of the composers claimed that they were writing real folk songs
The Singer, The Grey Cock in Birmingham and other clubs that followed suit created venues where traditional and newly written songs worked together in harmony because they were related in form
Ther was a strong encouragement to research and to set up workshops for new singers
A far cry from the present use of the term to cover anything from fifth rate pop to whatever people wished to call folk - a progressive experimental music based on traditional forms
While MacColl insisted he didn't write folk songs, he made sure that what he did write and sing didn't clash with the traditiona songs and ballads that dominated his, Peggy's and the rest of the residents' repertoires - Jack Warshaw, Sandra Kerr, Dick Sneel and Phil Colclough - all residents, wrote some excellent songs - a far cry from the cultural dustbin today's scene has been turned into
Even Bert Lloyd turned his hand to song-making on occasion
It was no accident that that none of Ewan's clubs were ever called 'folk clubs' though that's where you went to hear good folksongs well performed - they had a world-wide reputation for being just that
Jim

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 12:05 PM

May be for you, Dick. Not for someone like me with no musical talent!

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM

The concertina acoimpaniment to it is easy

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 11:26 AM

Well I never! You learn something new every day. Thanks, Jim. If Ewan's songs are not folk songs then, does that mean that performing them at folk clubs is assisting the demise of folk music? If so, I'll give up trying to learn "Sweet Thames flow softy". Can't get the concertina accompaniment right anyway :-D

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 10:58 AM

Didn't know that Jack
On par with the fact that after Ewan died and Peggy moved back to America their former home was rented out to a number of policemen who were horrified when the Local Council came along and stuck a Blue Plaque next to their front door commemorating a notorious 'Enemy of the People'
Jim

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 10:35 AM

"how can some of Ewan MacColls songs have evolved into folk songs? "
They didn't, and Ewan was always insistent on this fact - his sings never became folk songs

Does this mean that existence of the genre of contemporary folk is utter nonsense, despite it's well established genesis?

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 09:25 AM

One MacColl number that has gone outside the folk club world is "Shoals of Herring", which has a pipe setting in the Scots Guards regimental tune book as "Shaoth Sgadan".

I wonder if the Army pays royalties to MacColl's estate. Or if they can go whistle until the PRS gets its own nuclear submarine fleet.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 09:16 AM

"how can some of Ewan MacColls songs have evolved into folk songs? "
They didn't, and Ewan was always insistent on this fact - his sings never became folk songs
A couple of them ended up sung in very fragmentary form by Travellers but, as the Travellers singing traditions took a nose-dive when they all go tportable televisions this didn't go anywhere and MacColl said it.
We recorded bits Freeborn man but not enough to show it had taken root
Like with the settled Irish music, there has been a considerable rise in interest in instrumental music within the Irish Travelling communities, but that's in its early stages
First Time was turned into a pop song, which was why it caught on, but that never became a folk song and never will - it was a love song written for Peggy while they were apart
Repetition is not tradition otherwise the national Anthem and The Birdie Song would be a folk-song
Jim

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 09:09 AM

Vic, I couldn't agree more with your analysis and comments. On Saturday night, I was guesting at "Elsie's" out at Cowden Pound on the Kent/East Sussex border. A small pub, full of people, with the excellent Elsie's band as hosts and excellent local floor singers. An uproarious night and great fun.

Last night (Sunday), the monthly session/singaround was held in the George in my village, and there was hardly a spare seat in the (large) room. More guitars than other sessions, and a varied standard of performance - because we encourage beginners and people with different levels of confidence to join in - but also mandolins, harmonica, concertina and melodeon. The session, which I initially started, has now been runnning for 11 years and gets busier, with new faces, every month.

Tonight I shall be joining the company at the Charlwood - formerly the Greyhound" - in the Surrey village of Charlwood at the very end of the Gatwick flight path. This 'village singaround' was started over 40 years ago - by one Martyn Wyndham-Read - and has continued without a break but with some changes of venue since that time. Colin Gates, who has run the singaround for many years, comes from a family who have lived in Charlwood for hundreds of years, knows every field name and footpath in the village, and has tracked its history and happenings with wonderful songs - which are sung regularly and enthusiastically.

What with nights like these and the other sessions in my area, what more could I want? Some clubs have gone, but others spring up - but if they didn't, as you say, perhaps we don't need them as much.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 08:28 AM

The question is Where Have all the Folkies Gone?

I feel that this question arises because of the decline in the number of folk clubs and that the music now achieves a much lower profile in the mainstream media. I think that I have one of the reasons for this....

Laat night I was in a good old-fashioned village pub about five miles from where I live. There were about forty people there for the music and about a half a dozen at the other end of the pub.
There were 18 musicians there. The most common instrument (surprise, surprise) was the G/D melodeon, but there were also the three types of concertina, three fiddles, Northumbrian pipes, mandolin, octave mandola (that was me), flute, clarinet, whistles, a nycleharpa, a bassoon and only one guitar (thankfully because more than one guitar leads to clashing chords which I always find jarring).
The standard of musicianship was high; several of the better local morris musicians were there and there were six musicians that I had worked with either as a band member or as a dep. at barn dance gigs. The age range of the musicians was from the mid-20s to the mid-70s. Amongst the musicians there were two sets of father and son and two married couples. The tunes were almost exclusively English dance tunes with a heavy emphasis on the Sussex tunes of Scan Tester.... well, the nominal leader on the session is Will Duke and one of the concertinas that Will played last night was previously owned by Scan. There was one set of French tunes and one Swedish and there were eight songs, all traditional including a really well delivered ballad. We went round the table anti-clockwise with each person deciding what was next, either choosing 2 tunes to play together, or playing a party piece or singing a song.
This session has absolutely no profile. It never appears anywhere on print or the internet but word of mouth tells people that Will goes there on 2nd Sundays and that it is a good session. No money changes hands apart from buying drinks. It was a very satisfying ego-free evening to be a part of.
I know of quite a few sessions on this nature in my immediate area. I know of dozens in Sussex and I suspect that there are others that I know nothing of - perhaps I have heard them mentioned, but all share that very low profile. They don't publicise themselves because they don't need to.

Writing this, my thoughts turn to a town to the east of where I live, Hastings. There is no folk club in Hastings but you can hear quality folk, traditional and roots music every night of the week in a half a dozen or so pubs in the Old Town. There are English tune sessions, Irish sessions, bluegrass pickers, singarounds, a hugely popular weekly sea songs and shanties session. There is not a sizeable number of Irish or Irish heritage people in Hastings yet in recent years the mainly local Irish tune specialists have set up their own branch of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann with teaching and workshops and they even hold their own fleadh. There is a weekly 'Voices Only' session where you will hear songs ( mainly trad) and monologues and poetry. I doubt there is any town of comparable size where there are so many dance display sides; obviously their huge 'Jack In The Green' festival in May is a great stimulus for these.

I don't know if what I am aware of in my county is reflected in the rest of the country, but if what happens here is reflected nationally then they is still a great deal of traditional song and music that is being played that is totally under the radar. It could be that folk clubs are less important then they were because they have fulfilled their need. Both the local amateur or semi-pro enthusiast as well as the full time singers and groups don't need folk clubs as much as they did.

It could be that the success of folk clubs in giving a starting platform to singers and musicians now means that we no longer need them so much.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 08:12 AM

"Blue Moon" did go out on it's own, Jim. To Maine Road initially. Then it came back as an evolved song to our club. Then it evolved some more!

Out of interest, if a song cannot evolve within the confines of the folk club community, how can some of Ewan MacColls songs have evolved into folk songs? Other than "The first time" and "Dirty old town" which other of his songs have 'made their own way in the world'?

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:15 AM

"please, go off and sing some songs and play music its more productive than all this hot air."
PLease don't interfere if you have no interest Dick
You'll be getting yourself a reputation as a 'folk policeman'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 05:43 AM

I will if you will.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 05:28 AM

please, go off and sing some songs and play music its more productive than all this hot air.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 05:19 AM

One of my lesser ones Kenny - must add it to the growing list
Jim

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 05:01 AM

To lighten things up a bit, Jim wrote : "School of Sottish Studies" . Now there's a Freudian slip, if ever I saw one ! :)

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM

"Precisely the point I made over 'our' version of Blue Moon!"
Then how can it be a folk song until it has 'evolved'?
Can't happen in a room among friends - it has to leave the nest and make its own way in the world
Jim

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

Folk songs aren't written, they evolve and are absorbed

Precisely the point I made over 'our' version of Blue Moon!

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:22 AM

Al
"on mudcat, they tend to be a bit hoity toity."
There are very few 'academics' on Mudcat - I don't know any personally and the few I have dipped into, like the ones who put up useful lists of ballads and sources, I've always found extremely useful
We wouldn't have a pot to piss in if people hadn't got off their bums and done the work
You really need to deep-fry that chip on your shoulder and swallow it with a dash of salt and vinegar
Jim

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:15 AM

"Jim, if you want English Trad music to survive you're going to have to teach people how to do it."
Frank
I don't believe folk singing can be 'taught' but I do believe it can be learned - it really has to be a joint effort
MacColl, Seeger and the Critics Group mooted the subject for nearly a decade and produced a mass of study material in the shape of recorded group discussions and working sessions - theoretical and practical work, voice, singing and relaxation exercises.... all up for grabs if only there was the interest
Our personal archive alone covers the British, Irish and American oral Traditions - our own personal field recordings contain many hours of source singers talking about their art

I've recently been dipping into other archives - Lomax, Wilgus, School of Sottish Studies, Helen Hartness Flanders.... all on line and listenable to... virtually untapped resources of songs, music and information
It's been my experience that the best way to 'teach'folk singing is to get a bunch of folk-loving folkies together and create an atmosphere where they can discuss each others singing critically (positively and negatively) - once you get over the initial nervousness of the idea that people are not going to tell you that your singing is the best thing since sliced bread everybody present begins to learn and develop.
That will never happen, of course, while people chase their tails deciding what folk song is
When the Irish decided what Irish Traditional music was here in Ireland 'A Thousand Flowers Bloomed' and the music was guaranteed another two generation lease of life - youngsters in their thousands are now flocking into the music and playing it as well as I've ever heard it played - there's a lesson to be learned there, I think

'Participation' has to fit in with the understanding that, like any other art form, to participate requires a degree of dedication and commitment
I believe anybody can sing - to become a singer needs work - the more work, the better the singer

Dave
Folk songs aren't written, they evolve and are absorbed - you can no more plan to write a folk song than you can a hit-song
You can only make your song and see what happens to it
That's why I put a large question mark over football songs
Jim

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:01 AM

Actually, folk music will always be relevant to me, but there are many different varieties of it, of course...so what I think of as "folk music" might be a bit different from what another person thinks about it. On the whole, though, it has always been my favorite type of music.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:57 AM

In Kent we not only have the Broadstairs, Rochester and Tenterden festivals, but a number of singing morris sides, who dance a bit, and then take the music/ singing into the pub. Although not compulsory, they encourage all members to do a turn, or just join in with the songs someone else is leading. It would be hard not to have heard some folk music in Kent.
As for folk clubs, I think the most interesting is the Dartford one. They moved into a room in the working mens club, where the beer is modestly priced and the manager was wise enough to think ' real ale'. The format is to have a guest every week. The attendance is about 100 people a week, half of whom turn up regularly. Members of the club sit on the working mens committee, and the non folkie locals like the choice of beers.
I think that to answer the original ' where have all the folkies gone' might be 'in Kent'.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 08:52 PM

Is some of the problem not with the folk clubs - in an upstair room, keeping themselves seperate from the community? So how can the average punter ever hear "folk music"?
I'm not a singer but a fiddler. And many pubs (though certainly not all) are happy enough to let me sit in a corner, or in the garden, and play for a while.
A few years ago I was in Oxford, in a pub garden on a beautiful warm afternoon. my son went to get the beers, and I sat and played. And a little girl came over and danced, till the beer arrived and we went back to talking. I hope she will always remember doing that. Isn't that the way music should be. And does it matter a damn what genre the music is? Isn't the important thing that people get involved in it? Surely that's what "folk" really means.

I believe we have two things to attempt. One is on the academic side, to keep alive the original music, words, style of performance, instruments - and the other the use of this marvelous wealth of material asa base from which to continually produce things new. Surely both fall into what we call "The Tradition"?

And Al, I think it's the folk clubs, not the academics, that can be a bit hoity-toity! We see many academics at sessions, not always the greatest performers, but usually with a big input to the music.

Subject: RE: Where Have all the Folkies Gone
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 08:14 PM

Don't know about the rest of you. I got "into" folk music", for that read songs, by the love of its ability to tell a story, sometimes a story of major importance and at other times something much lighter, but both in their own way equally important and significant.

Pity the rest of you argue so vehemently with Jim, he certainly knows where the heart and soul of the folk music genre exists - hint it is not with wannabe pop artist singer/songwriters.