UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:19 AM

"That is your personal belief."
Not really Hoot, unless you think we stall have a living tradition
While the copyright exists it will still be the property of the holder
If children parody it and make their own versions, their creations may become folk songs possibly
But beyond that....
None of this is "my personal belief" - - that's what folk song is
It may be your "personal belief" that the song is a folk song, but you are going to have to argue for it
Feel free
You know as well as I do that royalties paid to 'folk'writers are pittances unless the industry can make something out of it first

As far as agents are concerned - NONE SO DEAF.... ...
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootennanny
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:51 AM

You stated that McTell's song could never be a folksong because he had copyrighted it. That is your personal belief.

Re the "Jackals" that you mention. Admittedly I don't attend Folk clubs that often these days but I have never yet seen anybody completing a PRS form and never been asked to complete one myself.

As an aside I should point out that when I worked for one of the "jackals" organisations I was able to make possible royalty payments to a traditional singer on behalf of their work and that of a parent. Not a fortune but an amount that was very much appreciated. They had never registered.

I don't defend the middlemen in collection of royalties but is there better practical way?

With regard to Ewan and disputes with "some of his agents". We do NOT both know, or at least I don't.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:39 AM

Should have said, there is no right or wrong answer to this. No cigar to win. Not a trick question. Just bear in mind all the songs you will hear have a little "c" after their titles.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM

I have answered 4 questions from you, Jim. Will you answer just one from me. If you went to a folk club and were treated to an evening of songs written by, for instance, Ewan MacColl, Vin Garbutt and Cyril Tawney, would you complain?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM

"Are you telling us that copyright of a song lasts for ever?"
How long ago did McTell write Streets of London - not Forever ago, surely
It was a reference to mentioned singer
Copyright is not really an issue - only an indication of the unclaimability of modern songs
One of the issues it does raise is how claiming modern written songs to be 'folk' has opener the door to the public performance jackals demanding payment from folk clubs"Why shouldn't he copyright his product?"
Who said he shouldn't - not me ?
I just said that it can't belong to him and to 'the folk'
I have no idea if Ewan continued to copyright traditions arrangements - I know some of his agents did at one time but we both know the disputes he had with them at one time or another
At no time did he ever claim his own songs were 'folk' - he ever refused to call his clubs 'Folk Clubs'
The only bust-up Ewan ever had with Luke Kelly is when the Dubliners began copyrighting folk songs
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM

Jim
Re your post at 6.18.

Are you telling us that copyright of a song lasts for ever?

If so that must be a recent change.

Ralph McTell was trying to make a living as a singer / songwriter. Why shouldn't he copyright his product?

I have seen material written by Mr MacColl that has been copyrighted and I have seen traditional material with words and music arranged by Ewan MacColl.

Surely singers and songwriters shouldn't give away the fruits of their labour any more than electricians would.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM

I know several versions Kenny - most of them obscene
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:36 AM

better late than never as the actress said to the folk singer

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Kenny B
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:18 AM

"Too late, too late", the maiden cried"

well done but you should have quoted the whole verse, much more appropriate to the proceedings

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM

Bit of a cop-out Kenny
This 'thread drift' has been a natural part of the discussion from the beginning
"Too late, too late", the maiden cried
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:27 AM

Like I said, Jim. Just because you disagree does not make it untrue. You asked the questions. You have my answers. I cannot answer for things others have said.

MacTell's songs are as much contemporary folk as MacColl's are. There are plenty more of his songs other than Streets of London. You asked for a definition of folk music. Not traditional music.

No cigar? I wasn't aware it was a competition in which prizes are won. Are you sole judge and jury in this arcade game? I think not.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Kenny B
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:24 AM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM

Oh come on Dave - plenty of them
Why are pop songs valid as consideration for consideration as folk songs will do for a start ?
Why should badly performed pop songs or Victoria tear-jerkers or early pop songs attract young people to folk music ?
What is it intolerant to expect to hear folk songs at a folk club

You might try explaining how you would describe a folksong to a newbie - I asj=ked this ages ago
Your starter for ten
Jim

This is a thread about the UK60s Folk Club Boom
If I was Dave i wouldn't reply to this thread drift by asking the poster to start 3 individual threads on the topics where he can debate each suggestion in turn without thread drift

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:24 AM

Beyond all logic to me
... and to me! How someone thinks that improvement can be brought by persistant repetitive and badly-researched negativity is beyond me. The two central administrative bodies of the countries whose music he is involved with are both awful; they are beyond redemption so much so that he won't work with them. He pours scorn on them.
My attitude could not be more different. I recognise faults and shortcomings but think that by taking small steps and concentrating on the positives, I feel that improvements can be made.
It reminds me of my professional career of 40 years in education, the last 30 at senior manager, head teacher and advisory level. Two of the schools that I arrived at were in a pitiful state, but by becoming involved with a strong team at senior level and by taking worrying issues one at a time, improvements were made and a culture of "We are getting better" developed and staff and pupils thought better of their establishment. In the term after I retired, there was yet another Ofsted inspection and my last school became the first special school to be given "outstanding" status. Well, perhaps the fact that I was no longer there helped but anyone who has been involved will know that this is the result of hard consistent graft.
One of the questions I always asked when I was interviewing for new staff was what the interviewee did outside their working hours, What I wanted to hear was about something that they were totally involved in. something that took them out of themselves, that fulfilled the role that folk music has done for me.
Tina and I completed 50 years of running weekly folk clubs together in 2014 and we both brought the same attitudes to this. If, for example, a singer came along and wanted to read a song to our audience, I would praise them for coming, praise what they had done but say how much better they would communicate with the audience if they had learned and absorbed their song and this was what we were used to and expected. They either did not come again or they took the bother to learn their song, but being a source of encouragement was always at the centre. One of the reasons that I stopped running a club was because of the increase in sessions of song or tune or both were increasing in frequency and standard - both Jim Bainbridge and myself have detailed this earlier in this thread. The folk scene was growing to maturity and folk clubs were no longer the important prop that the scene needed.

Now, I am afraid to say that as much as I am enjoying this futile, stuck discussion which does not seem to have made much progress in, what I see, is now over 200 posts, I have to go and pack my cases to fly out to West Africa where for a lot of the time, I will beyond the reach of electricity never mind the internet. I will be taking lots of batteries so that I can again record Manding jalis singing and playing their koras and balafons and others, I hope, will be new to me. A traditional jali will come from a family of heriditary musicians. He is a traditional singer and musician, but unless he creates within the strict structures of their traditions. If he is not giving a moral commentary of society as he or she sees it; if he is not composing praise songs for those making major contributions or events in their society then he won't be listened to. I expect I will be hearing songs of the people who have built the recently opened new road bridge over the River Gambia that will bring great economic benefit to towns like Soma or Farafeni at either end of it.
What I won't hear is complaints and negativity.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:16 AM

"Many pop songs are now over 50 years old and have been assimilated into a particular folk community."
The folk singing tradition has been more or less moribund since th beginning of the 20th century
How on earth have fifty year old songs been absorbed into a process that is dead as a Norwegian parrot
Age has sfa to to with folk song creation - repetition is not absorptopn

"I have never made such a claim."
Others have, fairly common in modern folk clubs
"Intolerance"
The very term 'folk police" exudes accusations of intolerance - wanna guess how many times it is used

Your description doesn't even begin to define folk song - especially as Ralph McTell doesn't even sing folk songs
Streets of London comes with a little (c) which makes it the property of Ralph McTell so it can never belong to the folk; their songs are in the public domain
No cigar Dave
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM

Why are pop songs valid? Many pop songs are now over 50 years old and have been assimilated into a particular folk community. They have become songs belonging to the folk of that community. In addition, many pop and other songs tell a story in the same style as folk music. They are no different to the songs written by, for instance, Ewan MacColl.

Why should badly performed etc. songs attract young people? They dont. I have never made such a claim.

Why is it intolerant etc? It isn't. I expect to hear folk songs at folk clubs. I have never been disappointed.

How would I explain a folk song to a newbie? I would say it is a song of a certain type of meter that, often, tells a story. I would go on to give examples from sources as diverse as the Copper family and Ralph McTell then come bang up to date with Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne and Granny's Attic to demonstrate that it is a living and evolving tradition.

I have made most of these points before but because you disagree, I suspect you have ignored them.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM

Oh come on Dave - plenty of them
Why are pop songs valid as consideration for consideration as folk songs will do for a start ?
Why should badly performed pop songs or Victoria tear-jerkers or early pop songs attract young people to folk music ?
What is it intolerant to expect to hear folk songs at a folk club

You might try explaining how you would describe a folksong to a newbie - I asj=ked this ages ago
Your starter for ten
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:28 AM

Remind us, Jim. What specific claims?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:07 AM

Same thing really Dave
There is enough evidence in Stradling's letter alone to suggest something has gone seriously amiss - many of the arguments here confirm that in their own negative and hostile way
The idea of embarking on a folk club pilgrimage to see how many clubs actually do present folksong might be enjoyabe but, as far as I' concerned, totally unnecessary - every "folk police" and "purist" further makes such a journey a wast of time and energy
Now - how about responding to some of the things I've claimed (not just you Dave)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

Oh, and 200!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:57 AM

I fully understand that there is no I'll feeling, Jim, which is what makes these discussions far more enjoyable than the shite we get off some. But if you think I have ever suggested that you have no right to comment then you are seriously off target. My point about you not attending clubs is that you do not have the whole picture and, because I only attend a handful of clubs, I do not have the whole picture either. Between us, and through these discussions, we have a better idea of what is going on and, from what I gather, there are the issues you mention but there is also lots of good stuff. Like everything else in life, it is not black and white but contains lots of grey areas.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:21 AM

Dick, I don't know if you've seen it but I've just come across this website of some folk clubs around Essex which we both used to attend. Lots of familiar names there. Not sure who JKD is.

http://romfolk.com/romfolk.com/Home.html

Essex Record Office has lots of tapes of folk club performances from that period, in particular those made by Jim Etheridge and Dennis Rookard as well as those mentioned by JKD. Sadly they're not online.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM

Dave
There's no animosity or ill-feeling on my part, far from it - I just don't see the point in running around in circles and I get very tired of always being on the defensive
It's about time we got some answers here
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:01 AM

You have suggested that unless I attend clubs I have no right to comment of the state of the revival Dave - or hat's how I took your question on how many I attend - Dick has just repeated your suggestion

As for being right or wrong - I really have no idea what you and many others regard as 'folk song' and until I do, we'll continue to go around in circles
I am arguing that folk song has been edged out of the club scene to make room for some nameless product that bears little resemblance to the real thing
hat do I have to be 'tolerantt about, or 'compromise' on
Folk clubs should never be an end in themselves or a place to go and meet your mates - they can be many things, bu their over-riding role should always be to promote a specific type of music
You seem to apply conditions on folk song that you would not apply to any other creative activity - I ask you all anain - is running a Jazz club to exclusively play and listen Jazz "restrictive", ""narrow", "purist" or "jazz policing"
If not, what the hell's wrong with folk song that it should be treated the way these people treat it   
Beyond all logic to me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:34 AM

Good grief, Jim. Where did that come from? Spilling over from the things mothers said thread, have you seen your arse this morning or something?

I have no more said you have no right to discuss anything than I have said anything goes at folk clubs. You have never provided any evidence of me saying the latter and you will find no evidence of me saying the former. In fact in my last post I specifically say

I am not saying that the evidence that you present is not right, but it is not the whole picture.

And go on to conclude

Neither of us is wholly right or wrong and that is something I think we can work on.

Now, if you believe that to be the action of someone who wants to exclude you from the discussion then, yes, there is no point continuing because you are, dare I say it, speaking a different language to me.

I have accepted, and seen, that there are faults in the folk scene. I have seen the phone mumblers and the introspective singers who think that everyone is interested in the forlorn fourteen year old love. And don't get me going on the performance poets with their overflowing ring binders. Why can they not even remember their own words?

Can you just not accept that there is also a lot of good stuff that can be built on?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

I am not sure that crticism from someone who has only been in a folk club once in fifteen years is informed criticism, how is it acceptable to make statements and pontificate about folk clubs if you have only been to one once in fifteen years, it is in fact no different from me pontificating about church services when i have not been once in fifteen years, its reminscent of alice in wonderland or the mad hatters tea party.
as for tilting at windmills, i can think of only one mudcat member who does that regularly.
CCE in ireland has been partly responsible for the promotion of irish tradtional music as has the Willie Clancy summer school, this is not opinion it is fact, that does not mean that i like the compoetitive side of CCE,
CCE also funds trad music festivals that are not competitive and sponors trad sessions. it is important to make informed and accurate criticism, to criticise for the sake of criticising and to make uninformed criticism of anything is reminscent of Don Quixote
CCE is the largest group involved in the preservation and promotion of Irish traditional music. We’re a non-profit cultural movement with hundreds of local branches around the world, and as you can read in our history we’ve been working for the cause of Irish music since the middle of the last century (1951 to be precise). Our efforts continue with increasing zeal as the movement launches itself into the 21st century.

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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:41 AM

Dave
I see no point in us arguing further
Your arguments are little different than those below the line who argue that I have no right to discuss UK politics because I no longer live there
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:35 AM

EFDSS gives only a bunch of singer songwriters in sound and, according to Stradling, have totally abandoned anything traditional in their magazine
The editor of Mustrad has pointed out that, unless are some radical changes, Musical Traditions with have to rethink what they are doing
ITMA is part of the rise in the fortunes of Irish Music due to dedication that appears to be missing from the English scene
The School of Scottish Studies is a wonderful site but , as all such resources, can only be useful if there is back-up work to assist its use
At one time, the club scene was once very much a part of that work - no longer the case with a revival which no longer seems to know what folk song is and, even worse, does not even want to talk about it.
These sites are for people who already know about folk song; it has already been claimed that th cause of low sales and disappearing clubs etc is that the old folkies are dying off

EFDSS
It is as old as the hills to argue that you shouldn't criticise if you are not prepared to join
I was a member for a time and I did a great deal of work in helping archive what they has, along with Malcolm I helped produce several albums of traditional singers and storytellers - all now deleted
I helped get The Carpenter Collection into Britain along with the then Librarian (Theresa Thom) and Bob Thomson
Been there - done that, and was ground down by the ignorance, apathy and opposition emanating from 'them upstairs'
In those days it was largely because the Society was dance orientated
Christ only knows what motivates the present lot - it most certainly ain't folk song
The Journal is the only saving grace of EFDSS and you don't have to be a member to get that
Nobody in their right mind would join any organisation in order to expend your energy in reforming it rather than on furthering the cause of the music it claims to represent
We have the CCE in Ireland as a perfect example of how futile an exercise that is
Tilting at windmills may have been fine for Don Quixote....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:44 PM

Yes, Dick, we did have access to traditional singers in the flesh, but today's youngsters have even greater access to their singing as much more is available online and on albums, thanks to many websites which make this available, Mustrad, EFDSS, ITMA, Kist of Riches, Yorkshire Garland, Farne, Sussex Traditions, etc. etc.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:59 PM

Steve has put a lot of effort into discovering the historical background to traditional music. So have I, and I agree entirely that the message has got through - younger players have a much better idea of where the stuff they play came from than those of a generation ago. Partly a change of attitude and partly what the Internet makes possible - a fiddler today coming across a wacky tune like "Catharsis" might well think, what was that all about? and if they ask the question it's only going to take minutes to find the composer's story about it in her own words. And it's a good story, well worth using in a performance. The charm of wilful ignorance wears off pretty fast.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:28 PM

Steve i disagree, we had closer contact to tradtional singers willie scott etc, and no i do not think they are any better, the standard is much the same, but the standard of floor singers now is lower

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM

Agreed, Ray
I can be as nostalgic as the next person when it comes to remembering the 60s, but if I am being honest and realistic the current performers, including the current crop under 40, are at least as good and as numerous, and, dare I say it, more knowledgeable of the background to the music simply because there is infinitely more information readily available.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:06 PM

I am pleased that some ppl had the good fortune to see and hear some traditional singers at their folk clubs in the 1960s and 1970s on a regular basis ~ I think that most like me were happy to see and hear revivalist singers and the odd opportunity to meet the likes of MacColl, Bert Lloyd, Arthur Howard, Frank Hinchliffe, Vin Garbutt, Cyril Tawney, Bod Davenport and others who were around ~ of whatever ilk showed the range of ppl around at the time!

Of course there is a fine body of upcoming ~ nay established professional artist and groups doing the rounds at the moment

Festivals and concerts and as I mentioned before vinyl records and sleeve notes were a great source of knowledge and information

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 12:58 PM

Dave and Vic, well put. I'm in total agreement.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 10:55 AM

Been there, done that Dave - the internet has made that totally irrelevant

Sorry, Jim, but it doesn't make it irrelevant at all. There are a number of ways of measuring most things. The style, quality and general demenour of folk clubs being one of them. I agree with you entirely that the internet has a place in making these judgements but, as you said yourself, "The question of standards is an important one but judging that needs a wider picture than a couple of clips can give" (Emboldening is mine). There are clips on the internet, there is anecdotal evidence and there is experiencing things for yourself. All these things go to make up the larger picture. I am not saying that the evidence that you present is not right, but it is not the whole picture. Just as mine is not because I can only report what I see in the clubs I am familiar with.

You say the whole folk club scene is in dire straights because of the evidence you have gathered. I say it is not because of the evidence I have gathered. If we put our evidence together we will probably find that the situation is somewhere in between where not everything is failing but there is considerable room for improvement.

Neither of us is wholly right or wrong and that is something I think we can work on.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM

Equally, when people argue for clubs being venues for songs not remotely relating to folk you know that all the visits in teh world are not going to change what you will find
The same applies to using crib sheets, having no standards... and all the other things argued for here and elsewhere, the idea that all is not well is confirmed
ou only need to look on the EFDSS website and could that with Rod Stradling's editorial, you have to admit something is sadly amiss at the very place that should be at the helm

Rod is not the person to go to for opinions about folk clubs. When we were at his place in Stroud last year, he told me that the only folk club that he had been to in the last fifteen years was ours - and that was because we had booked him. This does not mean that he is no longer involved in live music. He plays in his dance band, he is a regular at song and tune sessions in his area and he was raving to me about a concert that he has just seen in Bristol by Eliza Carthy's latest band. He finds concerts with hearing loops and small sessions more suitable and acoustic folk clubs in larger rooms more difficult with his hearing loss problems
I have more sympathy with his current position with the EFDSS and I feel that there is some sense of loss of direction since Malcolm Taylor retired. There are still great things being achieved by them in terms of the archiving of recordings of traditional song. The Full English is utterly admirable and the society hosts the vital and vast Roud Folk Song Index. I really like Katie Spicer the current CEO and she has worked wonders in terms of major fund-raising from the ACE and the HLR as well as attracting corporate funding. All this comes with strings attached so the emphasis has moved to sponsoring projects and to putting singers, dancers and musicians into schools - especially those that are finding it difficult to attract full-time music teachers. The evaluation asked for by these organisations calls for analysis of numbers of those attending, so when, as a member, I press for the Thomas McCarthys and Will Nobles of this world, it is explained to me why this is not always viable.
Unlike Rod, I remain a member of the EFDSS and will press for any action that supports traditional music. I vote in their elections and am very pleased to see people I know and respect like Alistair Anderson, Fi Fraser, Nicola Kearey, Mike Heaney and Corrine Male on the Governing Board.
I have no sympathy for those who criticise the EFDSS without joining to try to being about a change in direction. Similarly, those who do nor regularly visit and support folk clubs and encourage the organisers when they feel they are doing something well and expressing doubts about what they are less engaged by will never achieve change. I know that as an organiser I always was guided by club regulars and acted on suggestions that I thought helpful.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:22 AM

Clubs nowadays are tending to descibe themselves as "acoustic music clubs" rather than "folk clubs". This provides a clear open door to all genres (Americana, blues, trad, etc.) Anything involving applification is still regarded as a no-no however, I have witnessed a few discrete 'plug-ins' here & there.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:11 AM

" With that in mind, I ask you how many folk clubs in England have you attended recently
Been there, done that Dave - the internet has made that totally irrelevant
When somebody names a good singer who, with a little search, turns out to be a crap singer singing crap, you know something is not right
Equally, when people argue for clubs being venues for songs not remotely relating to folk you know that all the visits in teh world are not going to change what you will find
The same applies to using crib sheets, having no standards... and all the other things argued for here and elsewhere, the idea that all is not well is confirmed
ou only need to look on the EFDSS website and could that with Rod Stradling's editorial, you have to admit something is sadly amiss at the very place that should be at the helm
Meaningless and often insulting comments like "purist" and "folk police" are indications that people are turning away from folk song and using the term to mean something else, which by and large they are totally unable or unwilling to define (including you BTW) are indications that the scene has become directionless
"Long ballads" being "inappropriate" is an out of hand dismissal of the cream of the folk repertoire
Fall in attendance, reduction in number of clubs, often described discomfiture at singing unaccompanied songs (or even old songs) - all suggesting a terminal decline
The shift from competent resident to paid guest, festivals taking over from locally based clubs.... how much evidence do you want ?
Folk clubs with out folk songs are not only pointless, they do damage to the future of our art (that really is what it is)
I love singing, I have always loved listening to good songs reasonably performed, but my interests go far beyond that   
Last nights trip to town to hear the children and grandchildren of a twenty year dead piper friend play superbly left me waling on a cloud
A couple of minutes on Mudcat has brought me back to earth with a bump
Never mind, off to here another dead friend being discussed and demonstrated in an hour or so
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,RS
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:02 AM

The folk clubs in Reading that I went to in the 60s were wonderfully eclectic in their range of performers, & leaned more towards the blues/Jansch side (courtsey of the likes of residents such as Mike Cooper, Derek Hall, Bill Boazman etc ) - if they'd been more trad in nature, as I later discovered was the case in many places, I reckon they'd've been less appealing to many of us - I was luckier than I knew.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 08:51 AM

The clubs I went to in the 70s were filled mainly with young people in their 20s and 30s, although there were a few older ones as well. That generation is the still the one I see in the clubs I go to now. However young people haven't given up folk music, they are starting up their own clubs, just as my generation did, and presenting the music their own way, again just as my generation did. I don't see anything wrong with that.

As for folk clubs not featuring folk songs any more, I think that is a consequence of the shrinking club scene. Like it or not, the term "folk" covers a fairly broad spectrum, and the clubs I wrote about earlier all covered a range of music. If the music at one club didn't suit you there were plenty of other clubs which would. Now that choice isn't there, so everyone is forced together. They may be performing songs which may not be to everyone's taste, but they have no alternative.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 08:24 AM

Ok, Jim. So your comment "from what I've seen of your club from your links, it doesn't seem to have worked there" was only aimed at an apparent failure to attract young people. I can see that now and apologise for my earlier misinterpretation. In my defense, it can be difficult to follow your posts at times but I will try harder. However, what you failed to see on the clips is that it was a young man that recorded the songs and there were other young people in the audience that were not captured on video so your assumption is wrong.

I will also point out that as the club is run in a pub and does not get underway until around 9pm we did not expect children to attend. By young people in this case I mean 20-40. I have never suggested that young people can't be involved either so I have no idea where your statement that it was dismissive came from.

We now go on to address your line "The question of standards is an important one but judging that needs a wider picture than a couple of clips can give" and I agree with that. One cannot condone or condemn the actions of a folk club on the evidence of a couple of clips or on pure hearsay. You need to go to the club a number of times to be able to judge how they are faring. With that in mind, I ask you how many folk clubs in England have you attended recently?

I eagerly await your response.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM

the point is that Coope, Boyes and Simpson are very much on the traddie/purist wavelength, like yourself.

I've never pretended to be.

I just thought a bit of group solidarity might reduce the need for uncritical toadyism.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:50 AM

Try and follow this one:-

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:54 PM
When we wrote our letter (entitled "where have all the Folk-songs gone" t o The living Tradition, we were greeted by a barrage of protest not unsimilar to this - one particularity from a group sounding more like a firm of solicitors than a folk group (Boyes Cooper and summat) stood out
They suggested the we were suffering from the boredom of the "long, dark winter nights in Miltown Malbay"

In an effort to reduce unkind comments on this thread, Vic writes ...

From: Vic Smith - PM
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM
Perhaps the oddest thing about your post was that it combined this perjorative description of these very fine performers with a sentence that included the words "you need to learn to receive what you dish out" when actually there is never any call for comments that demean others. Mudcat would be a much healthier place without them.

Jim defends himself by saying....

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM
My comments were in response to their initial rudeness Vic.

Vic thinks about this. He checks, using the Mudcat member search facility to see whether Barry Coope, Jim Boyes or Lester Simpson have ever posted on Mudcat. None of the three ever have. This brings another question to Vic's mind....

None of these three people are likely to read your comments about them on this forum as there is no evidence that they ever visit here. If their comments, made in the magazine Living Tradition, about the "long, dark winter nights in Miltown Malbay" are so hurtful to you, why don't you take them up with the magazine rather than posting them here? After all, the editor of that magazine also makes her home in the western part of the fair land of Erin and probably suffers as badly from the blasts of Boreas, the shivers brought by Jack Frost and the other spirits that control the shorter daylight days. She may have sympathy for your cause.
We have enough problems with home-grown Mudcat insults without importing them.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:17 AM

"That seems to be the way of things and you will find that there are not many oldies at a rave!"
Whataboutism is no excuse
I was twenty one when I became involved and by three years younger sister did so at the same time
I was still buzzing from Duane Eddy, Buddy Holly, Rickie Nelson et al, and for a while continued to do so
It is more than a litle dismissive to claim that young people can' be involved
We sat in a room alongside the two generations of late friend Tom McCarthy - Clare piper and concertina player
His daughters daughters, their spouses and their six/seven (too many to count) children - all superb musicians sat and listened whie Toomt Keane (pipe spuse of one of the daughters) gabe a two hour talk on Tom's music - then followed by a mini-concert by family members
A truely magic night dominated by youngsters just as at home in a session as they are at a rave
We misjudge the youth if we believe them to be incapable of incapable of our music, and we do ourselves no favours either
Once again, I made no comment on either the standard or the content of your club
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:03 AM

Ah, OK. Thanks Jim. The clips I posted do not show what you seem to say and the chap taking the videos was in fact a young man so, if your impression was that Swinton was failing to attract new blood you are only partially right. There was certainly not many younger people but there were some. That seems to be the way of things and you will find that there are not many oldies at a rave!

It's what you argue should happen at folk clubs that divides us
A folk club that fails to make folk song its main feature simply isn't doing its job

Once again I am at a loss as to your meaning. The clips I linked are of me (and a number of others if you look) singing folk songs so, once again, how were we "failing to make folk songs a main feature"? Which of the songs I mention above are not folk songs and why? If we need to improve things we need to know what!

Also, again, I have never argued that "anything should go" at a folk club and you have failed to provide any evidence or where I am supposed to have done so. If you cannot back up the statement please stop making it, Repitition does not make something true as I think you pointed out to someone else once.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:53 AM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:25 AM

"How are you ever going to raise the profile of your music if you call each other names."
Said the feller who's just referred to several of us as "toadies"
"So, Jim, do you really think the links I provided of my performances at Swinton prove that the folk club there is no longer working?"
That wasn't my point Dave - I was a referring to poorly attended clubs populated lagely by oldies failing to attract new blood
I wouldn't dream of condemning what goes on there on the basis of a couple of clips
It's what you argue should happen at folk clubs that divides us
A folk club that fails to make folk song its main feature simply isn't doing its job
The question of standards is an important one but judging that needs a wider picture than a couple of clips can give

One thing that strikes me is that the internet may be a way of critically discussing performances with a view to improving them
The barrier to that of course is in making clear that positive criticism is not insulting or condemnation - not when it's delivered on a "good bits and bad bits" basis
THe other hurdle is the cloak of invincibility parts of the reivival has wrapped itself in - evidence of it here with good singers (ie, singers the poster happens to like) are above criticism, summed up by the old joke"
What would you do if you came home to find your missus in bed with Georgie Best   
Throw on another blanked 0- you don't want the bugger catching cold before Saturday

Nobody should ever be above criticism
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:25 AM

I know you are on your way out, Jim, but if you can see your way to answering my question as soon as you can I would appreciate it. It is very important to me.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:06 AM

How are you ever going to raise the profile of your music if you call each other names.

As I say,   Lester Simpson - i've seen several times. He tells these folk tales. And Coop Boyes and Simpson have been doing their thing about twelve years that I know off. they are your actual arts council/BBC sort of thing. Immensely competent and dedicated.

My boat stays unfloated, but lots of people like them. I'm an old fart pub singer. I dropped the ball sometime after Leapy Lee made number one. you can't expect me to get it.

But these guys are on your side. they would be on your side in any argument.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM

If you have forgotten them just Google "Dave Polshaw YouTube" and all 3 appear. The middle one is incorrectly titled "The harvest of the moon".

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM

" there is never any call for comments that demean others. "
My comments were in response to their initial rudeness Vic
You tend to be somewhat myopic when it comes to bad manner and insulting - ignoring the bits that suit you - even describing them as harmless and only objecting when it's from someone you don't agree with
I pointed this out on the 'New Book' thread.
This latest is an example
Jim