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UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

GUEST,Attendee 03 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM
beachcomber 04 Mar 19 - 11:22 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 19 - 12:23 PM
The Sandman 04 Mar 19 - 03:16 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 02:38 AM
r.padgett 05 Mar 19 - 03:35 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 03:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 05 Mar 19 - 07:38 AM
r.padgett 05 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,Peter 05 Mar 19 - 12:54 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,jag 05 Mar 19 - 01:30 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 01:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Mar 19 - 03:07 PM
GUEST 06 Mar 19 - 03:41 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 03:45 AM
The Sandman 06 Mar 19 - 04:02 AM
r.padgett 06 Mar 19 - 04:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Mar 19 - 05:07 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 05:45 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 06:44 AM
The Sandman 06 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Mar 19 - 07:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 08:16 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 08:18 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Mar 19 - 08:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Mar 19 - 07:52 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Mar 19 - 08:26 AM
GUEST 07 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Mar 19 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 09:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Mar 19 - 10:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM
Big Al Whittle 07 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 07 Mar 19 - 12:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Mar 19 - 01:16 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 03:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Mar 19 - 03:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Mar 19 - 03:33 PM
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Attendee
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM

How did people make their own music before that - 'traditionally'?

The short answer to your question GUEST,jag is - Yes that is exactly how they did it, with regard to Gaelic working songs, they normally had no accompaniment, they had no written music, they were normally made up and sung by women and they were passed on by mouth.

the folk clubs were set up so we could make our own music rather than pay someone to do it for us

That was certainly the case back when "Skiffle" broke away from its Jazz background, and it is the case in my area now where folk clubs book about twelve Guest performers each year. The folk club regulars always turn up to sing and play at the "session" nights but rarely if ever turn up to hear the Guest artists where the clubs get a completely different audience. Unfortunately you never know what you might hear at the "session" nights.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: beachcomber
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 11:22 AM

Remember the old BBC LIGHT PROGRAMME used to broadcast a Sunday morning show in the early 1950s, with recordings of folk singers from around the country side of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The programme was titled "AS I RODE OUT" and,in fact, the signature tune was a recording of Sarah Maken from Keady, Co. Armagh in N.I. singing "As I rode out on a May morning". This lady was the mother of Tommy Makem who sang and played banjo with the Clancy Brothers.
I do not remember if any singers or musicians from the Irish Republic were included but I feel that they were not. Growing up in rural Ireland I was quite used to hearing the Sean Nos style of singing as well as the old adapted humourous songs, from Music Hall and Irish American sources.
Perhaps it is wrong to call the latter kind "Irish" , maybe Anglo-Irish would be more appropriate but they were welcomed at weddings, Christenings and even some wakes around where I lived. The tradition of singing and entertaining carried them with it.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 12:23 PM

Still have a couple of as I Roved Out programme - It did include singers from the Republic
The collection it drew from was carried out by the BBC at that time and includes some of the very best recordings of folk songs ever made, especially those from The Northern Counties - still largely unheard
One of the singers was Mamo Clancy, mother to the Clancy Brothers
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 03:16 PM

On a number of occasions in the last two years , when i have been guesting in uk folk clubs, audience members have approached me in the break and remarked how much they enjoyed hearing some trad songs and saying, they would prefer it if more guest singers sang trad material .


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:38 AM

Confirms what a rare beast trad songs have become as far as I'm concerned Dick - keep up the good work
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:35 AM

Maintaining the performance of traditional songs can be difficult for performers ~ the problem is that audiences need to be receptive and knowledgeable

Venues such as the more controllable folk clubs in pubs are diminishing, however mixed sessions of songs and music (such as melodeons, concertinas etc) also provide an opportunity to sing unaccompanied songs

The used of pas and the ever increasing move with the times also tends to make the singing and appreciation of traditional songs a problem ~ and of course the need for folk singers to make a living


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:48 AM

" and of course the need for folk singers to make a living"
I knew very few singers who needed to Ron - they did it for the love of the songs as people have always done
The scene was setup to escape the situation where money was the driving force - now were back where we started it seems
I agree audiences need to be receptivve, but "knowledgeable" - surely not
You get to know about songs by listening to them - knowledge comes to those do
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 07:38 AM

I'm not sure about that. I remember someone criticising Arnold wesker's play Roots as naive. In the play Beatty (the country girl who has been working in the city and become 'sophisticated ' by her Jewish lover) . She's very rejecting of her parents when she returns to her rural Norfolk Home. Anyway she plays some classical music ( Bizet) to her Mum and soon they are both dancing round the living room in exuberant appreciation of the music.

Similarly in his play Chips with Everything. Its about some RAF national Servicemean. Its a dance and the boys are dancing round, getting drunk and fooling around to some vapid pop music. Much to the delight of the officers. But the 'hero' interrupts this with a rendition of The Cutty Wren. And he sweeps up a passionate response by the other recruits.

Wesker was criticised. Critics said - mere exposure to a superior cultural experience will not do the trick. Which I always thought chimed in with my experience of the world also.   the artist has (in my experience) to skillfully present his work with every artifice and aid known to man. Using all his cunning and intelligence. I loved Magic Lantern and the way Taffy Thomas and Tim laycock presented the ballads.

Still its only my view of things. I can understand other people think that only an uncompromisingly pure delivery will protect the tradition. I don't think both views need to be exclusive.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM

Jim the Folk scene has and is changing and is much more "healthy" than it was in the 1960s ~ believe it or not there are quite a number of "young thrusters" {Sid Kipper term} who at the very least rely on folk song and music as part of their semi pro/ft income ~ some also teach on folk related courses and have have other jobs

The 1960s folk singers ~ well yes some were indeed full time folkies reliant on folk club gigs and festival income ~ some were semi professional and some were "just" devoted to the music and its continuance with or without financial reward ~ long may it be so!

I think it is important to note the role of drink throughout which has and had good and bad points to its use by musicians and singers and of course the money derived from its sale

By the by a recently received copy of the EFDSS magazine does show how well the younger stalwarts are doing and how things were and have now changed

Ray


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:12 PM

2Has anyone got any GOOD news about Brexit?2
changed yes - no folk scene that can't guarantee folk songs can be described as healthy bcan be described as healthy by any stretch of teh imagination, neither can a scene that can't define what has replaced folk song
The movement towards payment as an incentive is a huge step back to the dauys of a music industry controlled culture - the very thing the clubs were set up to escape
It has been more or less admitted that the clubs have moved towards a guest policy rather than resident reliant clubs
Also admitted is the shift from clubs to festivals as venues
Rod Stradling's editorial poined out that Dance and Song had more or less abandoned traditional song, so I checked their site to find that, while they have dine a magnificent job on digitising Sharp's diaries, the only sound items were one, not unpleasant but not likely to inspire meodeon piece and around a dozen very mediocre singer/songwriter performances that bore no relation to folk song
Young stalwarts maty be 'doing well' but folk song appears to gone out of the window.
How can that be described as "healthy"
You don't have to go far to gauge the present health of the folk scene -the arguments put up on these threads save you the journey
Sorry Ray (and sorry for getting your name wrong previously)
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:54 PM

This whole thread reminds me of a letter about stop and search in a newspaper just after the 1981 Brixton riots.

The point was that the writer had a lovely village bobby in the middle of rural Norfolk therefore there was nothing wrong with the Metropolitan Police in the inner city.

Most of the arguements seem to bwe based on similar extrapolation. I could give a list of clubs where you would be lucky to hear one trad song in a night and another of clubs where trad was predominant. Pick the list that fits your preconceptions.

Curiously in my examples it is the singers clubs where trad has died out and the guest booking clubs where residents are more likely to sing trad material.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:10 PM

Surely the massive reduction of clubs accross the board needs to be a major issue here
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:30 PM

Well if traditional singing was traditionally "At home usually, but it died and we decided to revive it" (Jim) and the clubs with traditional singing have died maybe you should start one to revive the revival?

Me, I'd prefer a pub session, as was described way up the thread.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:41 PM

"maybe you should start one to revive the revival?"
Not being part of a living tradition, retreating to your home would be meaningless - in fact, a retreat
The problem with pub singing you lay yourself open to hostility from locals who may not be into that sort of thing or singing over a noise
We have descriptions of kitchen singing where long ballads could be sung to a totally receptive audience - can't think of a pub I've ever been in where that could happen
The same goes for good music sessions - we constantly hear complaints from some of our best musicians about being treated as 'muzak' in pubs
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:07 PM

Just a gentle reminder, Jim. See Date: 03 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM .

Ta.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:41 AM

quote - "Surely the massive reduction of clubs accross the board needs to be a major issue here
Jim"

Only if folk clubs continue to be the main thrust of the revival. Several knowledgeable involved people have given the opinion that this is no longer the case,


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:45 AM

" 03 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM ."
This gets beyond a joke Dave - I have responded to this and all of your questions
You stillm stoically refuse to mine or to my responses
Somewhat pissing in the wind I think
When you start to reciprocate, I'll repeat the answers I have already given
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:02 AM

Jim, I have experienced receptive pub audiences, but it is rare as you say to be able to sing more than one story ballad at a time.
The singers club in cork is an exception so is the dublin goilin club
Jim you are indeed pissing in the wind trying to communicate with Dave the gnome.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:58 AM

"The movement towards payment as an incentive is a huge step back to the dauys of a music industry controlled culture - the very thing the clubs were set up to escape
It has been more or less admitted that the clubs have moved towards a guest policy rather than resident reliant clubs
Also admitted is the shift from clubs to festivals as venues"

Folk clubs are not in my view folk clubs if they simply book guests ~ they are Folk Concert clubs!

Folk clubs are places that people go to play music and sing and that are open to audiences ~ I frequent such clubs ~ and are I suppose now deemed mixed sing and play ~ people tend to simply start a song or whatever and people listen and join in with the music etc ~ as Dick says trad ballads are tolerated ~ I tend to stick to chorusy songs ~ but do sing the tradition too

Times are and have changed as has the musicianship for the better by and large ~ new breed do take too much for granted and are looking for payment for their services ~ there are some brilliant newcomers I have to say!

Professional singers rely very much on the Folk concerts and other suitable venues promoting folk entertainment

Folk 21 members have their own axe to grind btw (facebook)

WE oldies are I think more aware of social issues in song history too

Ray


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:07 AM

I have responded to this and all of your questions

I must have missed that then. Where did I say that anything should go at folk clubs and what makes you think that people on here sing songs with 'no identity'?

As to answering you questions, I pointed out on the referenced post that "Some time ago I put up a list of things I believe make folk song unique, yo ignored it - I asked again", is not a question, it is a statement. I have no idea how to answer it. Let me know what question comes out of that and I will gladly comply.

I think you are confused as to who said what and which arguments you are having with whom


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:45 AM

Did you not put Ed Sheeran's material and way of singing up ave - must have been somebody else ?
I've been bombarded with so many strange suggestions of what passes for folk song 'the Kinks, for crying out loud !) tat you're beginning to look all the same (hope that doesn't sound racist !)

There, you've done it again; elicited a response without giving one yourself
Not knowinghow to answer a list of basic points that I believe make folk song unique is not an answer for someone involved in folk song Dave

"Folk clubs are not in my view folk clubs if they simply book guests ~ they are Folk Concert clubs!"
That shift has been heralded over and over again as proof that the scene is in a good state - we seem to be arriving at common ground

"and that are open to audiences "
Not sure about this - the sing-around clubs were very much late arrivals on the scene
The early format as I knew it was nights run by residents with an occasional guest night   
The best clubs had some sort of set up where new singers could be drawn in and encouraged to develop - when the Critics Group began around a dozen similar groups or workshops sprang up

"as Dick says trad ballads are tolerated "
Isn't that statement in itself evience of a decline - ballads were regarded as "the high-watermark of the tradition", Hamish Henderson entitled them "The Muckle Sangs" (the big songs)
Why should they need to be "tolerated"?

People looking for payment need to look elsewhere - they are a drain on the promotion of the revival unless they are prepared to take an active part in developing other singers - many did at one time - I see few doing it in England now
Ireland is different in the sense that many of our great new musicians came from the efforts of more experienced ones running workshops - now many of the younger ones ate teaching others
Professional musicians' needs are their own business
I don't think there are enough aware oldies to float a revival - us 'dying off' has been cited as an excuse for the decline
To tell the truth, I've been astounded at some of the statements I've read lately from oldies who really should know better

I would like to deal with Dick's interesting point about narrative songs in Ireland, but I'll do it separately - I bank on far too long as it is
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

Well it might be so for unaccompanied singers, a big step back. But decent instruments don't buy themselves. no one makes a fortune, but some slight remuneration for doing a gig doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

God alone knows how squeezebox players get together eight and fifteen grand for concertinas.

Its this view of being the alpha and omega of folk music, and being so tetchy with it that makes one feel at odds all the bloody time. No one can say anything right, except, I agree.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM

I did put Ed Sheeran up and a link of him performing a traditional folk song. Regardless of who is singing it, a traditional folk song is a traditional folk song surely? I put SOME of his own material up as an example of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" as we must now call contemporary folk!

Not knowinghow to answer a list of basic points that I believe make folk song unique is not an answer for someone involved in folk song Dave

Sorry Jim, but a list of points is still not a question. How does one go on about answering a list of points?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:44 AM

"I did put Ed Sheeran up and a link of him performing a traditional folk song."
He wasn't singing a traditional folk song - (or maybe I missed it)
If you're not going to respond to what I said, perhaps you might describe what you mean by 'traditional'
The songs I heard had little, if anything to do with 'folk forms) - not one of them could be described as narrative ot word based
I actually asked you how your attitude towards what takes place in a folk club corresponds with my analysis of what a folk song is - several times

"But decent instruments don't buy themselves. no one makes a fortune"
Fine Al - but if I want to do something I buy the tools I can afford
If a dying revival has to support expensive instruments for guests.... I don't know what to say other than , why not try singing traditional songs in a traditional manner - unaccompanied
"I agree."
Or a rational argument against Al - isn't that what makes exchanging ideas interesting ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM

The Wild Mountain Thyme , was it not written by one of the MCPEAKES?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 07:48 AM

Well to be honest -its more your lot than mine who have the posh instruments.
All my stuff -though I have a lot of it - comes from across the pacific and costs less than a thousand - usually about half that.   I've got a lot of gear cos I was a gigging muso for many years. theres no collectors editions - its just stuff to do the job.

By and large, i suppose wealthy middle classes buy the instruments of which I speak. I don't know if you know the work of Keith kendrich - he's done yeoman work researching and performing traditional derbyshire songs.

He told me one of his concertinas was about eight grand and the other one was really expensive! Similarly Brian peters plays an expensive squeeze box and guitar. I suppose the thinking is that these songs deserve the best instruments he can afford. I'm sure Brian isn't a wealthy man. he's just doing his best.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM

He wasn't singing a traditional folk song - (or maybe I missed it)

Ed Sheeran - The Parting Glass

The songs I heard had little, if anything to do with 'folk forms) - not one of them could be described as narrative ot word based

Gallway Girl is a narrative about how he met his love and Nancy Mulligan tells of how his parents met and married despite their liaison being frowned upon.

I am not saying either of them are folk songs. I am saying they are "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" and that is subjective.

I actually asked you how your attitude towards what takes place in a folk club corresponds with my analysis of what a folk song is

And I have actually answered many times as well. Traditional folk song is taken as read. Traditional folk songs belong in folk clubs. That leaves "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Of those I think we agree on the majority. The ones in question are a matter of taste or interpretation.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM

Now, what makes you think that "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity"? Presuming that 'here' means the Mudcat Cafe, how many Mudcatters have you heard singing anything and in what way do those you have heard not have a distinct identity?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:16 AM

"Well to be honest -its more your lot than mine who have the posh instruments. "
Not sure what you mean Al (who is my lot?
I don't play an instrument and Enlishh traditional song is historically unaccompanied and doesn't need an instrument
I had a Wheatstone concertina once - unbelievably, it cost me £10 and I ver learned how to play it properly
My guitar, which I hardly ever play cost me about £50
As I said, it is the responsibility of the musician to arm him?herself if they feel the necessity
It really should not be a club issue
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:18 AM

Peggy Seeger is the most skillful accompanists I know - at a lecture on on accompaniment we recorded from her she began "The first think you have to decide about accompaniment is, "is it necessary?""
I cam live with that
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:26 AM

last time i counted sixty different guitars had gone through my hands. i think i sold all of them at a loss.

derek Brimstone used to laugh at me. He'd say - I've had ONE guitar in all that time! But Derek was on the folkscene at an advantageous time. He got to establish his name when there was a lot of interest in folk music.

On the other hand, he was older than me - so I'm still alive, and he's dead. I've had to do all sorts of gigs to keep working, Derek just had the one gig.

Heres my latest. Its an Epiphone Sheraton 335 - a bit like John Lee Hooker and BB King played. Got on ebay on 10% off day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKu98Xvyfd8


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 07:52 AM

Are there any leftover unanswered questions, Jim?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM

"
Are there any leftover unanswered questions, Jim?"
Have you started answering them Dave ?
Not as I have noticed - not by you or anybody else
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:26 AM

Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:45 AM

Question, from Jim. "I actually asked you how your attitude towards what takes place in a folk club corresponds with my analysis of what a folk song is - several times"

Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM

Answer, from Dave. "And I have actually answered many times as well. Traditional folk song is taken as read. Traditional folk songs belong in folk clubs. That leaves "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Of those I think we agree on the majority. The ones in question are a matter of taste or interpretation."

Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM
Statement from Jim. "Have you started answering them Dave ?
Not as I have noticed - not by you or anybody else"

I thought I had answered. What am I missing?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM

no he just answers questions he wasn't asked & at length


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM

"The ones in question are a matter of taste or interpretation."
No it isn't Dave - taste has nothing whatever to do with anything
As far as interpretation is concerned, unless contemporary songs sound as if they derive from traditional forms they have no lace in folk clubs - people who turn up to listen to folk or folk sounding songs and are not given what they want are being conned
You still bang on about Ed Seeran even though his songs cannot remotely be claimed to sound like anything the tradition has produced - in style or form
"no he just answers questions he wasn't asked & at length"
Sorry you didn't get the answers you wanted, but answers they certainly where
Can you point out anything I haven't responded to ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:34 AM

So, Jim, you asked what my attitude was and I told you. How have I not responded?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:57 AM

Remind me - I think you said you didn't know
DDo you really think that to be a satisfactory answer
How on earth does Sheeran fit into all this - surely you know if you made the claim he did ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM

I'll clarify, Jim.

Simple question from you. Nothing to do with anything or anyone else.

I actually asked you how your attitude towards what takes place in a folk club corresponds with my analysis of what a folk song is

I answered that by saying

Traditional folk song is taken as read. Traditional folk songs belong in folk clubs. That leaves "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Of those I think we agree on the majority. The ones in question are a matter of taste or interpretation

Which, regardless of whether you agree with it or not, is what my attitude is.

How have I not answered your question?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:07 AM

Sorry, I should have added it may or may not correspond with what your analysis is but it is still my attitude towards what takes place at a folk club. Which is precisely what you asked.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

Just noticed this

unless contemporary songs sound as if they derive from traditional forms they have no lace in folk clubs

and I agree entirely. The question is, who decides if they sound like they derive from traditional forms or not? What sounds like a folk song to me may not sound like one to you. Which is why it is a matter of taste and interpretation.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM

ten quid for a concertina!

sounds like there could be 'a modest profit' -as they say on Bargain Hunt.

fifty quid would be a month of my Dad's wages in the 1960's. round about that time - i got my first guitar a Rosetti, costing 4 pounds 19/11d.

I couldn't afford a good guitar til I was working ten years later from Kays catalogue.

What learners do is their own business. What folks taking it seriously do is give it their best shot.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 11:19 AM

"The question is, who decides if they sound like they derive from traditional forms or not?"
Pretty obviously they are those that use the tunes and tune structures and those that are word based and narrative - those that sound like they might be folk songs because that's how they have been deliberately constructed
There really has never been a problem with this before now - Eric Bogle, Miles Wooton, MacColl, Seeger, Leon Rossleson, Woodie Guthrie, Jack Warshaw... and all the many others who made songs using this method knew what folk song was and were happy to use that understanding
I've asked you before - where does Ed Sheeran and The Kinks fir into all this ?
Can you think of any comparable folk songs that fit into what they did/do?
None of this has anything to do with 'analysis' which is an intellectual exercise - it is about how songs sound and communicate themselves - their function
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 12:55 PM

I must have missed Woody Guthrie when he showed up at a UK Folk Club. I know he was in England in 1945 and broadcast on BBC radio but even the Ballads and Blues Association wasn't around then.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM

No, Jim. You are still sidestepping the issue. You asked a question about my attitude and I answered it. I asked you why you you think "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity" and you have completely ignored that and changed the subject so, come on, fair is fair. I have answered a number of your questions. How about answering one of mine for a change?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 01:16 PM

those that sound like they might be folk songs

Those that sound like they might be folk songs to whom?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM

"Those that sound like they might be folk songs to whom?"
To those who know what folksongs sound like maybe
I've already laid out what I believe makes folk songs unique - if you don't agree with my definition go steep yourself in the BBC recordings, or the 10 album Folk songs of Britain or The Song Carriers - or read your way through Penguin Book of English Folk song......
Work your wat=y through the Topic Catalogue...
Are you being serious Dave ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:18 PM

"I must have missed Woody Guthrie when he showed up at a UK Folk Club. "
I was referring to singer/songwriters who used the tradition to inform their work
I say Ramblin' Jack Elliot at The Bluecoat Chambers in Liverpool on a tour to raise funds for Woodie's medical costs, but that's beside the point
"what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity" "
Yes I have Dave (still answering without being reciprocated
The attitude here is really 'anything goes at a folk club" - Music Hall, Victorian tear jerkers early 20th century pop songs masturbating-into-your-guitar, singer/songwriter stuff, The Cricits, your Galway Girl and others from the same source - The Kinks.... and more
How can anything as divers and unrelated to folk song as thatclaim to have an identity of its own, let alone a cover-all definition ?
And above all, how can that possibly fall under the same heading as folk song proper
Your turn now
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:19 PM

To those who know what folksongs sound like maybe

Ahhhh, so now we have it. Folk songs are defined by "those who know what folksongs sound like". Surely, folk song should be defined by all folk, not just by those who study it. Correct me if I'm wrong but what you seem to be saying is that you are qualified to say what a folk song is but I am not. If I, or millions of others, hear a song and think "that sounds like folk music", but you disagree then we are wrong.

Don't misunderstand me. I am not saying you are wrong either. Just that you need to take on board the very valid views of other people. What you define as "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" is certainly right. But so is what other people define as the same.

And we still don't know why you think "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity". Still evading that issue!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:33 PM

Ah, sorry Jim. We cross posted. You have now changed "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity" to "The attitude here is really 'anything goes at a folk club". Nothing to do with what people sing at all then. Little wonder that we are at cross purposes half the time when you say one thing but mean another!

You also seem to be confusing me with someone else again as well. I have said, quite categorically that folk clubs should showcase traditional folk music and "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Never that anything goes. As we have just discussed though your definition of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" is different to mine and different to a number of others on here. You insist that you know what folk songs sound like but others don't. I also insist that I know what folk songs sound like but I am not going to dismiss someone else's view just because it is not the same as mine.

I am not going to fall out with you but I do admit to being disappointed that you are so inflexible.


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