UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 02:10 PM

"Jim, please can remind me again how you know something to be a folk song when you hear it?"
By where they come from and how they've been acquired - how else ?
There ate too many examples to be in any doubt
You know when a newly written one sound like a folk song by comparing them with the real thing
I fail to see the point of your question, I'm afraid
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 01:44 PM

Jim, please can remind me again how you know something to be a folk song when you hear it?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 12:52 PM

"There we have it again. Totally subjective judgement based on taste and interpretation. "
Nothing to do with taste and interpretation Dave (I'm beginning to find the constant repetition with this, along with inflexibility more than a little offensive)
What you put up sounded nothing like any folk song I have ever heard - the personal taste seems solely in your court
Try comparing them to any traditional singer you choose - I'd be interested if you put them up as links so we can discuss it instead of alluding to it
Seth Lakeman - Harry Cox - you really are serious, aren't you ?
Nor is it a matter of "better" - they are as different as anything you could possibly imagine
WILL YOU PLEASE STOP MAKING THIS ABOUT PERSONAL TASTE AND TELL ME HOW YOUR CHOICE FIRS IN WITH YOUR ACKNOWLEGED DEFINITION OFG FOLK SONG
By the way - not sure about the choice of someone who thinks'My Little Shirt my Mother made for me' is suitable for a folk club and that one of Ireland's most respected songs 'MacDonald of Glencoe' from one of Ireland's most respected source singers,is "a bloody terrible song" - now that's down to personal taste
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM

Hope they're better than the ones Dave offered up (or the ones on the EFDSS website)

There we have it again. Totally subjective judgement based on taste and interpretation. If you think your choices are better than mine and those of EFDSS that is absolutely fine by me. But it is not fact, it is your opinion.

I would guess that Steve's 20 are technically as good as any. I know a good few exceptionally talented locals myself but stuck to famous names so as not to be accused of comparing obscure acts with your more famous list. The point is, they are all individuals. Some I like, some not so much. But to my ears and to those of millions of others, they are writing and performing "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Other than just dismissing the songs I listed out of hand, you have said nothing to convince me otherwise.

Are you back from Ennis early then? Not going to Morris practise till 8 myself.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 11:43 AM

Karine - possibly a better example.
https://youtu.be/Hz6lZTmJ7fk

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 11:20 AM

"Just in my immediate little backwater."
Hope they're better than the ones Dave offered up (or the ones on the EFDSS website)
Hardly the point when what's being argued for has nothing to do with folk and, when you take Ed Sheeran and The Kinks into consideration, doesn't even claim to
Al
You are talking about American and Spanish traditions feeding into each other - fine by me - I was turned on t American music by seeing Sonny Terry in Liverpool
I would never kid myself I could sing blues as well as a black American - let those who can, do, as far as I'm concerned
Much more comfortable with my own English language traditions

Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM

>>>>>>>Are you seriously suggesting that those born after 1950 are writing songs using folk forms and functions in any significant number - who are they and what are they writing<<<<<<< In short YES!!!!

Just in my immediate little backwater.
I can give you 20 names right off the top of my head, many more if I move out a few miles. I'll name them if you wish and give a sample of the type of stuff they're writing and what/who their inspirations are.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM

There's an old story you've probably heard.

when i was a kid I wanted to play guitar, like Cliff and the Shads. But my Dad, who knew everything, so I thought.
Said, La! Real guitarists play with their fingers not a plectrum!
Nine year old Al said, who plays like that?
A bloke in Spain called Segovia.... and this black chap. he's american...called Josh White.
So eventually Josh appeared on English TV and my journey started.

When Josh was seven years old, he saw a blind man trying to cross the road. He helped him across. that man was Blind Lemon Jefferson and he asked the kids name.
I know a song about Joshua, said BLF, and played him Joshua fit the Battle of Jericho.
Its a song I'm now teaching to my little 7 year old uke strumming grand nephew, Joshua.
That in my book is tradition.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:27 AM

Absolutely no surprise that you dispute the examples I have posted as "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions", Jim. I reckon that is the only bone of contention we have. You say they are not. I, and millions of others, say they are. What makes your opinion any better that mine then? After all, you said yourself that there is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like.

I have told you why I think they are "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Because, to me and millions of others, they sound like them. You say that they are not, presumably because, to you, they do not sound like them. What you are saying is that your ear is better at discerning folk songs than mine. That's fine. I can live with that without actually believing it. But you must understand that this is only your opinion and not a fact.

FWIW I don't think your last link is a folk song either but I did not refer to it. You did.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:10 AM

Your/Dick's description is beyond my comprehension - I don't read music an didn't the vast majority of our folk singers
As I understand it, Sharp went far further into musical analysis
Out folk songs are word based and narratively formed (once again) the tunes provide a form for the poetry and are unimportant in themselves (in England anyway) as they are transient and constantly replaceable.

By the way
WHAT ON EARTH HAS THIS TO DO WITH FOLKSONG !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:03 AM

KARINE POLWART - YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING
Esd Sheeran - we reallyy do have no commong gound - this is a waste of time
MY KIND OF FOLK
USING FOLK TO MAKE NEW SONGS
OR THIS
NEARLY THIS
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

Are you seriously suggesting that those born after 1950 are writing songs using folk forms and functions in any significant number - who are they and what are they writing

Yes. Examples. Karine Polwart, All on a summers evening; Seth Lakeman, The White Hare; Kitty Macfarlane, Time and Tide. Many, many more where those came from.

does Ed Sheeran count among those

Some of his songs, yes! I refer you to his self penned 'Nancy Mulligan'. I would have no issue with him performing that at any folk club I attended.

Can you tell me what your view of "folk forms and functions" is and give examples ? As to what it is, I think Dick Miles summed it up technically. For all Dick's other issues he is a musician I trust to know what he is talking about.

there seems to be musically a melodic folk style that defines that which is normally accepted as folk style in the uk.
on analysis this involves the use of the dorian and mixolydian scale as well as the major scale not many other scales are used, one exception being one song of dave goulders that use the locrian scale, melodically they generally appear to stick wthin certain melodic boundaries , unlike jazz they do not generally involve improvisation.
as a general rule most songwriters writing in this uk contemp folkstyle, avoid twelve bar blues, occasionally there are exceptions.often musically they avoid diminshed chords.

As for examples, I just gave you some. I am sure you will dispute the ones I list but they are not only my view of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" (Yes, I will keep that cumbersome term just for you :-) ) but the view of millions of others. I don't always go with the crowd as you know but on this score, I think they are right. After all, There is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like...

Enjoy your day in Ennis.

I am at Morris practice tonight and going to see Captain Marvel followed by a curry tomorrow so I know not when we shall speak again.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:33 AM

It would be hard to think of a songwriter more embedded in, and cognizant of, tradition than Woody Guthrie.

Many if not all of his songs are traditional melodies, frequently referencing the earlier work by choice of the subject matter.

Its a tradition more easily understood by English people, than the celtic one, as American artists have been popular in this country since the 1880's influx of American artists into our music hall venues.

Guthrie often wrote that if one of his own records were played on manistream radio, 'a soda jerk would think the radio was broken'.

he knew he was writing for people who understood the tradition. Which seems to be a fewer and fewer number as the middle-class traddy conformity clique keep shrinking the audience to prove their superior knowledge. BBC4 seems incapable of making a programme about traditional music that doesn't confront and dismiss popular culture.

The tradition will survive, because by definition thats what a tradition is. It come from the Latin 'traditio' = I hand over. The tradition is literally what we hand over. If all we hand over is a vision of people who hold themselves as superior to common humanity - god help us.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:10 AM

"I can only answer for myself, Jim. Why do you keep putting the load of everyone else's comments on me"
If I wanted to talk to just you Dave I would PM you - this is a general discussion and you ahve taken sides
I fuully accept that the veiws expressed here are as about as conistent as the what happens at folk clubs bu I really don't have the time to address each individual poster - as much as I post, it's a tiny part of the work I am invoved in at present (on folksong)
Are you seriously suggesting that those born after 1950 are writing songs using folk forms and functions in any significant number - who are they and what are they writing - does Ed Sheeran count among those (and you call me inflexible!!)
Can you tell me what your view of "folk forms and functions" is and give examples ?
"and just use contemporary folk song "
Not until you give us a picture of a united view of contemporary folk song and relate it to folk song proper
One minute you're saying you are just speaking for yourself, now you are suggesting that contemporary folkies are a United Front - you need to make up your mind
(will have to leave this shortly - a day in Ennis)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM

I can only answer for myself, Jim. Why do you keep putting the load of everyone else's comments on me. Maybe I am too flexible :-)

There is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like

Good! I am glad you say that. I know what a folk song sounds like and I have spent many years listening to and researching them as well. But when I say that a contemporary song sounds like a folk song to me, you deride that claim. One thing I noticed about your list of writers of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" (Eric Bogle, Miles Wooton, MacColl, Seeger, Leon Rossleson, Woodie Guthrie, Jack Warshaw) is hat none of them were born after 1950. In fact, a lot of them are already dead. There are writers and performers of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" born well after then. In fact, some born in the last 30 years and probably later.

There are writers and performers of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" who also write and perform pop songs. The two things are not mutually exclusive. I mentioned Ed Sheeran not because I am a fan of him but because he is in that category. Writing and performing popular songs does not stop him from writing and performing anything else you know!

As I said, I know what a folk song should sound like and there are some performers under the age of 70 who can write and perform "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions".

Can we drop the log-winded term "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" and just use contemporary folk song yet BTW?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM

Traditional songs were songs of their time

Contemporary songs are songs of the current time

Those that survive the passage of time will become traditional folk songs

Social history yes but songs with tunes which have the unknown quality to make them memorable ~ that say something about us as human beings within the context of being who we are!

Place for performance is limited, so to some extent are songs deemed to be traditional folk songs ~ and some are of course discarded or unpopular so fall out of use ~ rightly or wrongly maybe

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 03:57 AM

""those who know what folksongs sound like"."
A partial quote Dave - not worthy of you
I included a list of where folk songs could be found - aurally and in print - I could have extended that a hundredfold
There is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like - it's been fully documented and made available - some of us spent most of our lives listening to and singing them
The mish-mash that passes for folk at a folk club can have no identity becase those who advocate for it can't agree on what it is, nor can they define it
The nearest anybody ever came to defining "modern folk" is "anything sung at a folk club" - bloody nonsense !
We will fall out if you continue to call me "inflexible" - what am I supposed to be flexible about ?
I've told you what I believe folk song to be and why - you offer nothing tangible in return
I've explained how I believe a scene that adopts an identity - in this case 'folk' needs to be homogeneous in some way and to deal with related material - in the case of song, aurally and poetically - again, you offer nothing tangible in return
I've explained at length how I believe the driving out of traditional songs from the scene have damaged their future (a coupple of good examples her have been "inappropriate long ballads" and, more recently, ballads being "tolerated" - patronising to say the least
None of you have ever commented on that damage
You aren't asking for flexibility, you are demanding total surrender to a hostile takeover a scene that was once based on 'The People's art' - their song, 'The Songs of the People' and that silly label Topic chooses to call them and Francis Child chose to entitle his ballads
No Pasaran, I'm afraid
Where are your arguments - more to the point, where is your consistency between you all ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:33 PM

Ah, sorry Jim. We cross posted. You have now changed "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity" to "The attitude here is really 'anything goes at a folk club". Nothing to do with what people sing at all then. Little wonder that we are at cross purposes half the time when you say one thing but mean another!

You also seem to be confusing me with someone else again as well. I have said, quite categorically that folk clubs should showcase traditional folk music and "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Never that anything goes. As we have just discussed though your definition of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" is different to mine and different to a number of others on here. You insist that you know what folk songs sound like but others don't. I also insist that I know what folk songs sound like but I am not going to dismiss someone else's view just because it is not the same as mine.

I am not going to fall out with you but I do admit to being disappointed that you are so inflexible.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:19 PM

To those who know what folksongs sound like maybe

Ahhhh, so now we have it. Folk songs are defined by "those who know what folksongs sound like". Surely, folk song should be defined by all folk, not just by those who study it. Correct me if I'm wrong but what you seem to be saying is that you are qualified to say what a folk song is but I am not. If I, or millions of others, hear a song and think "that sounds like folk music", but you disagree then we are wrong.

Don't misunderstand me. I am not saying you are wrong either. Just that you need to take on board the very valid views of other people. What you define as "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" is certainly right. But so is what other people define as the same.

And we still don't know why you think "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity". Still evading that issue!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:18 PM

"I must have missed Woody Guthrie when he showed up at a UK Folk Club. "
I was referring to singer/songwriters who used the tradition to inform their work
I say Ramblin' Jack Elliot at The Bluecoat Chambers in Liverpool on a tour to raise funds for Woodie's medical costs, but that's beside the point
"what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity" "
Yes I have Dave (still answering without being reciprocated
The attitude here is really 'anything goes at a folk club" - Music Hall, Victorian tear jerkers early 20th century pop songs masturbating-into-your-guitar, singer/songwriter stuff, The Cricits, your Galway Girl and others from the same source - The Kinks.... and more
How can anything as divers and unrelated to folk song as thatclaim to have an identity of its own, let alone a cover-all definition ?
And above all, how can that possibly fall under the same heading as folk song proper
Your turn now
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM

"Those that sound like they might be folk songs to whom?"
To those who know what folksongs sound like maybe
I've already laid out what I believe makes folk songs unique - if you don't agree with my definition go steep yourself in the BBC recordings, or the 10 album Folk songs of Britain or The Song Carriers - or read your way through Penguin Book of English Folk song......
Work your wat=y through the Topic Catalogue...
Are you being serious Dave ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 01:16 PM

those that sound like they might be folk songs

Those that sound like they might be folk songs to whom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM

No, Jim. You are still sidestepping the issue. You asked a question about my attitude and I answered it. I asked you why you you think "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity" and you have completely ignored that and changed the subject so, come on, fair is fair. I have answered a number of your questions. How about answering one of mine for a change?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 12:55 PM

I must have missed Woody Guthrie when he showed up at a UK Folk Club. I know he was in England in 1945 and broadcast on BBC radio but even the Ballads and Blues Association wasn't around then.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 11:19 AM

"The question is, who decides if they sound like they derive from traditional forms or not?"
Pretty obviously they are those that use the tunes and tune structures and those that are word based and narrative - those that sound like they might be folk songs because that's how they have been deliberately constructed
There really has never been a problem with this before now - Eric Bogle, Miles Wooton, MacColl, Seeger, Leon Rossleson, Woodie Guthrie, Jack Warshaw... and all the many others who made songs using this method knew what folk song was and were happy to use that understanding
I've asked you before - where does Ed Sheeran and The Kinks fir into all this ?
Can you think of any comparable folk songs that fit into what they did/do?
None of this has anything to do with 'analysis' which is an intellectual exercise - it is about how songs sound and communicate themselves - their function
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM

ten quid for a concertina!

sounds like there could be 'a modest profit' -as they say on Bargain Hunt.

fifty quid would be a month of my Dad's wages in the 1960's. round about that time - i got my first guitar a Rosetti, costing 4 pounds 19/11d.

I couldn't afford a good guitar til I was working ten years later from Kays catalogue.

What learners do is their own business. What folks taking it seriously do is give it their best shot.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

Just noticed this

unless contemporary songs sound as if they derive from traditional forms they have no lace in folk clubs

and I agree entirely. The question is, who decides if they sound like they derive from traditional forms or not? What sounds like a folk song to me may not sound like one to you. Which is why it is a matter of taste and interpretation.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:07 AM

Sorry, I should have added it may or may not correspond with what your analysis is but it is still my attitude towards what takes place at a folk club. Which is precisely what you asked.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM

I'll clarify, Jim.

Simple question from you. Nothing to do with anything or anyone else.

I actually asked you how your attitude towards what takes place in a folk club corresponds with my analysis of what a folk song is

I answered that by saying

Traditional folk song is taken as read. Traditional folk songs belong in folk clubs. That leaves "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Of those I think we agree on the majority. The ones in question are a matter of taste or interpretation

Which, regardless of whether you agree with it or not, is what my attitude is.

How have I not answered your question?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:57 AM

Remind me - I think you said you didn't know
DDo you really think that to be a satisfactory answer
How on earth does Sheeran fit into all this - surely you know if you made the claim he did ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:34 AM

So, Jim, you asked what my attitude was and I told you. How have I not responded?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM

"The ones in question are a matter of taste or interpretation."
No it isn't Dave - taste has nothing whatever to do with anything
As far as interpretation is concerned, unless contemporary songs sound as if they derive from traditional forms they have no lace in folk clubs - people who turn up to listen to folk or folk sounding songs and are not given what they want are being conned
You still bang on about Ed Seeran even though his songs cannot remotely be claimed to sound like anything the tradition has produced - in style or form
"no he just answers questions he wasn't asked & at length"
Sorry you didn't get the answers you wanted, but answers they certainly where
Can you point out anything I haven't responded to ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM

no he just answers questions he wasn't asked & at length

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:26 AM

Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:45 AM

Question, from Jim. "I actually asked you how your attitude towards what takes place in a folk club corresponds with my analysis of what a folk song is - several times"

Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM

Answer, from Dave. "And I have actually answered many times as well. Traditional folk song is taken as read. Traditional folk songs belong in folk clubs. That leaves "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Of those I think we agree on the majority. The ones in question are a matter of taste or interpretation."

Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM
Statement from Jim. "Have you started answering them Dave ?
Not as I have noticed - not by you or anybody else"

I thought I had answered. What am I missing?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM

"
Are there any leftover unanswered questions, Jim?"
Have you started answering them Dave ?
Not as I have noticed - not by you or anybody else
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 07:52 AM

Are there any leftover unanswered questions, Jim?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:26 AM

last time i counted sixty different guitars had gone through my hands. i think i sold all of them at a loss.

derek Brimstone used to laugh at me. He'd say - I've had ONE guitar in all that time! But Derek was on the folkscene at an advantageous time. He got to establish his name when there was a lot of interest in folk music.

On the other hand, he was older than me - so I'm still alive, and he's dead. I've had to do all sorts of gigs to keep working, Derek just had the one gig.

Heres my latest. Its an Epiphone Sheraton 335 - a bit like John Lee Hooker and BB King played. Got on ebay on 10% off day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKu98Xvyfd8

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:18 AM

Peggy Seeger is the most skillful accompanists I know - at a lecture on on accompaniment we recorded from her she began "The first think you have to decide about accompaniment is, "is it necessary?""
I cam live with that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:16 AM

"Well to be honest -its more your lot than mine who have the posh instruments. "
Not sure what you mean Al (who is my lot?
I don't play an instrument and Enlishh traditional song is historically unaccompanied and doesn't need an instrument
I had a Wheatstone concertina once - unbelievably, it cost me £10 and I ver learned how to play it properly
My guitar, which I hardly ever play cost me about £50
As I said, it is the responsibility of the musician to arm him?herself if they feel the necessity
It really should not be a club issue
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM

Now, what makes you think that "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity"? Presuming that 'here' means the Mudcat Cafe, how many Mudcatters have you heard singing anything and in what way do those you have heard not have a distinct identity?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM

He wasn't singing a traditional folk song - (or maybe I missed it)

Ed Sheeran - The Parting Glass

The songs I heard had little, if anything to do with 'folk forms) - not one of them could be described as narrative ot word based

Gallway Girl is a narrative about how he met his love and Nancy Mulligan tells of how his parents met and married despite their liaison being frowned upon.

I am not saying either of them are folk songs. I am saying they are "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" and that is subjective.

I actually asked you how your attitude towards what takes place in a folk club corresponds with my analysis of what a folk song is

And I have actually answered many times as well. Traditional folk song is taken as read. Traditional folk songs belong in folk clubs. That leaves "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Of those I think we agree on the majority. The ones in question are a matter of taste or interpretation.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 07:48 AM

Well to be honest -its more your lot than mine who have the posh instruments.
All my stuff -though I have a lot of it - comes from across the pacific and costs less than a thousand - usually about half that.   I've got a lot of gear cos I was a gigging muso for many years. theres no collectors editions - its just stuff to do the job.

By and large, i suppose wealthy middle classes buy the instruments of which I speak. I don't know if you know the work of Keith kendrich - he's done yeoman work researching and performing traditional derbyshire songs.

He told me one of his concertinas was about eight grand and the other one was really expensive! Similarly Brian peters plays an expensive squeeze box and guitar. I suppose the thinking is that these songs deserve the best instruments he can afford. I'm sure Brian isn't a wealthy man. he's just doing his best.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM

The Wild Mountain Thyme , was it not written by one of the MCPEAKES?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:44 AM

"I did put Ed Sheeran up and a link of him performing a traditional folk song."
He wasn't singing a traditional folk song - (or maybe I missed it)
If you're not going to respond to what I said, perhaps you might describe what you mean by 'traditional'
The songs I heard had little, if anything to do with 'folk forms) - not one of them could be described as narrative ot word based
I actually asked you how your attitude towards what takes place in a folk club corresponds with my analysis of what a folk song is - several times

"But decent instruments don't buy themselves. no one makes a fortune"
Fine Al - but if I want to do something I buy the tools I can afford
If a dying revival has to support expensive instruments for guests.... I don't know what to say other than , why not try singing traditional songs in a traditional manner - unaccompanied
"I agree."
Or a rational argument against Al - isn't that what makes exchanging ideas interesting ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM

I did put Ed Sheeran up and a link of him performing a traditional folk song. Regardless of who is singing it, a traditional folk song is a traditional folk song surely? I put SOME of his own material up as an example of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" as we must now call contemporary folk!

Not knowinghow to answer a list of basic points that I believe make folk song unique is not an answer for someone involved in folk song Dave

Sorry Jim, but a list of points is still not a question. How does one go on about answering a list of points?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

Well it might be so for unaccompanied singers, a big step back. But decent instruments don't buy themselves. no one makes a fortune, but some slight remuneration for doing a gig doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

God alone knows how squeezebox players get together eight and fifteen grand for concertinas.

Its this view of being the alpha and omega of folk music, and being so tetchy with it that makes one feel at odds all the bloody time. No one can say anything right, except, I agree.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:45 AM

Did you not put Ed Sheeran's material and way of singing up ave - must have been somebody else ?
I've been bombarded with so many strange suggestions of what passes for folk song 'the Kinks, for crying out loud !) tat you're beginning to look all the same (hope that doesn't sound racist !)

There, you've done it again; elicited a response without giving one yourself
Not knowinghow to answer a list of basic points that I believe make folk song unique is not an answer for someone involved in folk song Dave

"Folk clubs are not in my view folk clubs if they simply book guests ~ they are Folk Concert clubs!"
That shift has been heralded over and over again as proof that the scene is in a good state - we seem to be arriving at common ground

"and that are open to audiences "
Not sure about this - the sing-around clubs were very much late arrivals on the scene
The early format as I knew it was nights run by residents with an occasional guest night   
The best clubs had some sort of set up where new singers could be drawn in and encouraged to develop - when the Critics Group began around a dozen similar groups or workshops sprang up

"as Dick says trad ballads are tolerated "
Isn't that statement in itself evience of a decline - ballads were regarded as "the high-watermark of the tradition", Hamish Henderson entitled them "The Muckle Sangs" (the big songs)
Why should they need to be "tolerated"?

People looking for payment need to look elsewhere - they are a drain on the promotion of the revival unless they are prepared to take an active part in developing other singers - many did at one time - I see few doing it in England now
Ireland is different in the sense that many of our great new musicians came from the efforts of more experienced ones running workshops - now many of the younger ones ate teaching others
Professional musicians' needs are their own business
I don't think there are enough aware oldies to float a revival - us 'dying off' has been cited as an excuse for the decline
To tell the truth, I've been astounded at some of the statements I've read lately from oldies who really should know better

I would like to deal with Dick's interesting point about narrative songs in Ireland, but I'll do it separately - I bank on far too long as it is
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:07 AM

I have responded to this and all of your questions

I must have missed that then. Where did I say that anything should go at folk clubs and what makes you think that people on here sing songs with 'no identity'?

As to answering you questions, I pointed out on the referenced post that "Some time ago I put up a list of things I believe make folk song unique, yo ignored it - I asked again", is not a question, it is a statement. I have no idea how to answer it. Let me know what question comes out of that and I will gladly comply.

I think you are confused as to who said what and which arguments you are having with whom

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:58 AM

"The movement towards payment as an incentive is a huge step back to the dauys of a music industry controlled culture - the very thing the clubs were set up to escape
It has been more or less admitted that the clubs have moved towards a guest policy rather than resident reliant clubs
Also admitted is the shift from clubs to festivals as venues"

Folk clubs are not in my view folk clubs if they simply book guests ~ they are Folk Concert clubs!

Folk clubs are places that people go to play music and sing and that are open to audiences ~ I frequent such clubs ~ and are I suppose now deemed mixed sing and play ~ people tend to simply start a song or whatever and people listen and join in with the music etc ~ as Dick says trad ballads are tolerated ~ I tend to stick to chorusy songs ~ but do sing the tradition too

Times are and have changed as has the musicianship for the better by and large ~ new breed do take too much for granted and are looking for payment for their services ~ there are some brilliant newcomers I have to say!

Professional singers rely very much on the Folk concerts and other suitable venues promoting folk entertainment

Folk 21 members have their own axe to grind btw (facebook)

WE oldies are I think more aware of social issues in song history too

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:02 AM

Jim, I have experienced receptive pub audiences, but it is rare as you say to be able to sing more than one story ballad at a time.
The singers club in cork is an exception so is the dublin goilin club
Jim you are indeed pissing in the wind trying to communicate with Dave the gnome.