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UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Jim Carroll 08 Mar 19 - 03:57 AM
r.padgett 08 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 19 - 05:10 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Mar 19 - 05:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 19 - 06:03 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 19 - 06:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Mar 19 - 06:27 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 19 - 11:20 AM
GUEST 08 Mar 19 - 11:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 19 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,jag 08 Mar 19 - 01:44 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 19 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 08 Mar 19 - 02:29 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 19 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 08 Mar 19 - 05:04 PM
Big Al Whittle 08 Mar 19 - 05:12 PM
Stewie 08 Mar 19 - 07:39 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 19 - 02:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Mar 19 - 03:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Mar 19 - 03:40 AM
GUEST,Derrick 09 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 19 - 04:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Mar 19 - 04:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Mar 19 - 05:31 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 19 - 05:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Mar 19 - 06:21 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Mar 19 - 07:02 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Mar 19 - 07:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 19 - 07:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Mar 19 - 08:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Mar 19 - 08:28 AM
Stewie 09 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Mar 19 - 09:00 AM
Stewie 09 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 19 - 09:07 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 19 - 09:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Mar 19 - 10:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Mar 19 - 10:52 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 19 - 11:01 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 19 - 12:22 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 19 - 03:02 PM
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 03:57 AM

""those who know what folksongs sound like"."
A partial quote Dave - not worthy of you
I included a list of where folk songs could be found - aurally and in print - I could have extended that a hundredfold
There is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like - it's been fully documented and made available - some of us spent most of our lives listening to and singing them
The mish-mash that passes for folk at a folk club can have no identity becase those who advocate for it can't agree on what it is, nor can they define it
The nearest anybody ever came to defining "modern folk" is "anything sung at a folk club" - bloody nonsense !
We will fall out if you continue to call me "inflexible" - what am I supposed to be flexible about ?
I've told you what I believe folk song to be and why - you offer nothing tangible in return
I've explained how I believe a scene that adopts an identity - in this case 'folk' needs to be homogeneous in some way and to deal with related material - in the case of song, aurally and poetically - again, you offer nothing tangible in return
I've explained at length how I believe the driving out of traditional songs from the scene have damaged their future (a coupple of good examples her have been "inappropriate long ballads" and, more recently, ballads being "tolerated" - patronising to say the least
None of you have ever commented on that damage
You aren't asking for flexibility, you are demanding total surrender to a hostile takeover a scene that was once based on 'The People's art' - their song, 'The Songs of the People' and that silly label Topic chooses to call them and Francis Child chose to entitle his ballads
No Pasaran, I'm afraid
Where are your arguments - more to the point, where is your consistency between you all ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM

Traditional songs were songs of their time

Contemporary songs are songs of the current time

Those that survive the passage of time will become traditional folk songs

Social history yes but songs with tunes which have the unknown quality to make them memorable ~ that say something about us as human beings within the context of being who we are!

Place for performance is limited, so to some extent are songs deemed to be traditional folk songs ~ and some are of course discarded or unpopular so fall out of use ~ rightly or wrongly maybe

Ray


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM

I can only answer for myself, Jim. Why do you keep putting the load of everyone else's comments on me. Maybe I am too flexible :-)

There is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like

Good! I am glad you say that. I know what a folk song sounds like and I have spent many years listening to and researching them as well. But when I say that a contemporary song sounds like a folk song to me, you deride that claim. One thing I noticed about your list of writers of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" (Eric Bogle, Miles Wooton, MacColl, Seeger, Leon Rossleson, Woodie Guthrie, Jack Warshaw) is hat none of them were born after 1950. In fact, a lot of them are already dead. There are writers and performers of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" born well after then. In fact, some born in the last 30 years and probably later.

There are writers and performers of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" who also write and perform pop songs. The two things are not mutually exclusive. I mentioned Ed Sheeran not because I am a fan of him but because he is in that category. Writing and performing popular songs does not stop him from writing and performing anything else you know!

As I said, I know what a folk song should sound like and there are some performers under the age of 70 who can write and perform "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions".

Can we drop the log-winded term "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" and just use contemporary folk song yet BTW?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:10 AM

"I can only answer for myself, Jim. Why do you keep putting the load of everyone else's comments on me"
If I wanted to talk to just you Dave I would PM you - this is a general discussion and you ahve taken sides
I fuully accept that the veiws expressed here are as about as conistent as the what happens at folk clubs bu I really don't have the time to address each individual poster - as much as I post, it's a tiny part of the work I am invoved in at present (on folksong)
Are you seriously suggesting that those born after 1950 are writing songs using folk forms and functions in any significant number - who are they and what are they writing - does Ed Sheeran count among those (and you call me inflexible!!)
Can you tell me what your view of "folk forms and functions" is and give examples ?
"and just use contemporary folk song "
Not until you give us a picture of a united view of contemporary folk song and relate it to folk song proper
One minute you're saying you are just speaking for yourself, now you are suggesting that contemporary folkies are a United Front - you need to make up your mind
(will have to leave this shortly - a day in Ennis)
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:33 AM

It would be hard to think of a songwriter more embedded in, and cognizant of, tradition than Woody Guthrie.

Many if not all of his songs are traditional melodies, frequently referencing the earlier work by choice of the subject matter.

Its a tradition more easily understood by English people, than the celtic one, as American artists have been popular in this country since the 1880's influx of American artists into our music hall venues.

Guthrie often wrote that if one of his own records were played on manistream radio, 'a soda jerk would think the radio was broken'.

he knew he was writing for people who understood the tradition. Which seems to be a fewer and fewer number as the middle-class traddy conformity clique keep shrinking the audience to prove their superior knowledge. BBC4 seems incapable of making a programme about traditional music that doesn't confront and dismiss popular culture.

The tradition will survive, because by definition thats what a tradition is. It come from the Latin 'traditio' = I hand over. The tradition is literally what we hand over. If all we hand over is a vision of people who hold themselves as superior to common humanity - god help us.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

Are you seriously suggesting that those born after 1950 are writing songs using folk forms and functions in any significant number - who are they and what are they writing

Yes. Examples. Karine Polwart, All on a summers evening; Seth Lakeman, The White Hare; Kitty Macfarlane, Time and Tide. Many, many more where those came from.

does Ed Sheeran count among those

Some of his songs, yes! I refer you to his self penned 'Nancy Mulligan'. I would have no issue with him performing that at any folk club I attended.

Can you tell me what your view of "folk forms and functions" is and give examples ? As to what it is, I think Dick Miles summed it up technically. For all Dick's other issues he is a musician I trust to know what he is talking about.

there seems to be musically a melodic folk style that defines that which is normally accepted as folk style in the uk.
on analysis this involves the use of the dorian and mixolydian scale as well as the major scale not many other scales are used, one exception being one song of dave goulders that use the locrian scale, melodically they generally appear to stick wthin certain melodic boundaries , unlike jazz they do not generally involve improvisation.
as a general rule most songwriters writing in this uk contemp folkstyle, avoid twelve bar blues, occasionally there are exceptions.often musically they avoid diminshed chords.


As for examples, I just gave you some. I am sure you will dispute the ones I list but they are not only my view of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" (Yes, I will keep that cumbersome term just for you :-) ) but the view of millions of others. I don't always go with the crowd as you know but on this score, I think they are right. After all, There is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like...

Enjoy your day in Ennis.

I am at Morris practice tonight and going to see Captain Marvel followed by a curry tomorrow so I know not when we shall speak again.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:03 AM

KARINE POLWART - YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING
Esd Sheeran - we reallyy do have no commong gound - this is a waste of time
MY KIND OF FOLK
USING FOLK TO MAKE NEW SONGS
OR THIS
NEARLY THIS
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:10 AM

Your/Dick's description is beyond my comprehension - I don't read music an didn't the vast majority of our folk singers
As I understand it, Sharp went far further into musical analysis
Out folk songs are word based and narratively formed (once again) the tunes provide a form for the poetry and are unimportant in themselves (in England anyway) as they are transient and constantly replaceable.

By the way
WHAT ON EARTH HAS THIS TO DO WITH FOLKSONG !!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:27 AM

Absolutely no surprise that you dispute the examples I have posted as "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions", Jim. I reckon that is the only bone of contention we have. You say they are not. I, and millions of others, say they are. What makes your opinion any better that mine then? After all, you said yourself that there is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like.

I have told you why I think they are "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Because, to me and millions of others, they sound like them. You say that they are not, presumably because, to you, they do not sound like them. What you are saying is that your ear is better at discerning folk songs than mine. That's fine. I can live with that without actually believing it. But you must understand that this is only your opinion and not a fact.

FWIW I don't think your last link is a folk song either but I did not refer to it. You did.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM

There's an old story you've probably heard.

when i was a kid I wanted to play guitar, like Cliff and the Shads. But my Dad, who knew everything, so I thought.
Said, La! Real guitarists play with their fingers not a plectrum!
Nine year old Al said, who plays like that?
A bloke in Spain called Segovia.... and this black chap. he's american...called Josh White.
So eventually Josh appeared on English TV and my journey started.

When Josh was seven years old, he saw a blind man trying to cross the road. He helped him across. that man was Blind Lemon Jefferson and he asked the kids name.
I know a song about Joshua, said BLF, and played him Joshua fit the Battle of Jericho.
Its a song I'm now teaching to my little 7 year old uke strumming grand nephew, Joshua.
That in my book is tradition.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM

>>>>>>>Are you seriously suggesting that those born after 1950 are writing songs using folk forms and functions in any significant number - who are they and what are they writing<<<<<<< In short YES!!!!

Just in my immediate little backwater.
I can give you 20 names right off the top of my head, many more if I move out a few miles. I'll name them if you wish and give a sample of the type of stuff they're writing and what/who their inspirations are.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 11:20 AM

"Just in my immediate little backwater."
Hope they're better than the ones Dave offered up (or the ones on the EFDSS website)
Hardly the point when what's being argued for has nothing to do with folk and, when you take Ed Sheeran and The Kinks into consideration, doesn't even claim to
Al
You are talking about American and Spanish traditions feeding into each other - fine by me - I was turned on t American music by seeing Sonny Terry in Liverpool
I would never kid myself I could sing blues as well as a black American - let those who can, do, as far as I'm concerned
Much more comfortable with my own English language traditions

Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 11:43 AM

Karine - possibly a better example.
https://youtu.be/Hz6lZTmJ7fk


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM

Hope they're better than the ones Dave offered up (or the ones on the EFDSS website)

There we have it again. Totally subjective judgement based on taste and interpretation. If you think your choices are better than mine and those of EFDSS that is absolutely fine by me. But it is not fact, it is your opinion.

I would guess that Steve's 20 are technically as good as any. I know a good few exceptionally talented locals myself but stuck to famous names so as not to be accused of comparing obscure acts with your more famous list. The point is, they are all individuals. Some I like, some not so much. But to my ears and to those of millions of others, they are writing and performing "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Other than just dismissing the songs I listed out of hand, you have said nothing to convince me otherwise.

Are you back from Ennis early then? Not going to Morris practise till 8 myself.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 12:52 PM

"There we have it again. Totally subjective judgement based on taste and interpretation. "
Nothing to do with taste and interpretation Dave (I'm beginning to find the constant repetition with this, along with inflexibility more than a little offensive)
What you put up sounded nothing like any folk song I have ever heard - the personal taste seems solely in your court
Try comparing them to any traditional singer you choose - I'd be interested if you put them up as links so we can discuss it instead of alluding to it
Seth Lakeman - Harry Cox - you really are serious, aren't you ?
Nor is it a matter of "better" - they are as different as anything you could possibly imagine
WILL YOU PLEASE STOP MAKING THIS ABOUT PERSONAL TASTE AND TELL ME HOW YOUR CHOICE FIRS IN WITH YOUR ACKNOWLEGED DEFINITION OFG FOLK SONG
By the way - not sure about the choice of someone who thinks'My Little Shirt my Mother made for me' is suitable for a folk club and that one of Ireland's most respected songs 'MacDonald of Glencoe' from one of Ireland's most respected source singers,is "a bloody terrible song" - now that's down to personal taste
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 01:44 PM

Jim, please can remind me again how you know something to be a folk song when you hear it?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 02:10 PM

"Jim, please can remind me again how you know something to be a folk song when you hear it?"
By where they come from and how they've been acquired - how else ?
There ate too many examples to be in any doubt
You know when a newly written one sound like a folk song by comparing them with the real thing
I fail to see the point of your question, I'm afraid
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 02:29 PM

Jim,

Are you seriously telling us that you do know the origin of every song which you describe as folk and how it was acquired?

I find that hard to believe unless you have a very limited collection.

I seem to remember you stating somewhere something like that we don't know the origins of many folk songs.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 03:05 PM

"Are you seriously telling us that you do know the origin of every song which you describe as folk and how it was acquired?"
Have I said that ?
Must have lost the thread for a minute
There is a large set repertoire that have long become regarded as folk because of the process there underwent - well documented and established as what they are and represent
We don't the origins of any folk songs for certain, we can onluy use what we do know and can work or to make an educated guess
We know what folk songs sound like and what form they take (in general)
If it's old, it sounds like a folk song and can't be attributed to a specific maker, it's probably a folk songs
If anybody tells you they know who made our folk songs or attempts to apply statistics based on how many have appeared in print they're telling porkies
The motifs in many of our older songs go back as far as Homer and Chi=ucer and we do know for certain that songs weer being sung from memory as far back as The Venerable Bede (672/3 to 26 May 735)
The song 'The Frog and the Mouse' was attributed to shepherds in 1549 - it was still doing the rounds in the latter half of the 20th century
That has to stand for something
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:04 PM

So it's down to educated guesswork.

Thankyou

Regarding Homer and Chi=ucer, I prefer the work of Homer and Jethro, much more humour.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:12 PM

21st. i still sing the Frog and the Mouse.

then I segue into The Frog on the Tyne.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:39 PM

In one of the other threads that are currently on foot, I indicated what sort of contemporary songs I would consider acceptable within the folk idiom. It is easy enough to find songs in the repertoires of contemporary 'folk' singer/songwriters that would be out of place in a folk club. However, there are many that would compare favourably with the offerings of Bogle, MacColl etc mentioned by Jim. To give a few examples, I would be more than happy to hear any of the following performed alongside traditional songs in a folk club.

Minstrel show

Burn away

The last bird to sing

Ankle tattoo

Shores of America

Take a chance

Me n Becky

Argonne wood

Jim might not want to hear any of those in a folk club but, if that is the case, in my opinion that would be his loss.

--Stewie.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 02:58 AM

"but, if that is the case, in my opinion that would be his loss."
Now that is a matter of choice, but whty shoupld it be "my loss" if the singing does nothing for me?
Reducing this to like and dislike is totally meaningless - somebody might have made exactly the same remark about Rod Stewart or Shirley Bassey
I might have said exactly the same about the singing of Paddy Tunney, or Mary Delaney or Sheila Stewart
Totally meaningless
The clips themselves, as far as I can see, owe little to folk song for their creation, they are what they are (whatever that is) and it's unimportant who likes them as far this discussion is concerned - nothing whatever to do with whether they are suitable for the title 'folk song' (contemporary or otherwise)
Most of them I found difficult to listen to because I couldn't here what was being said/sung - over-accompanied, badly balanced and, in one case, orchestrated
No way to pass on information, feelingsd or stories, which is what folk song is about
I assume Argonne Wood is American, their accent appears to be
"Than kyou"
For what - were you ever in doubt?
"I prefer the work of Homer and Jethro,"
I'm sure you do - but thanks for making clear where you stand on folk song, much more humour.
It's about time others were as honest so we know where we stand
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:35 AM

Er, Sorry Jim, I thought we were talking about folk song (or contemporary songs using folk forms and functions) not folk singers. Why on earth would anyone want to compare Seth Lakeman to Harry Cox? They are both capable of singing The Foggy Dew just as they are both capable of singing The White Hare. Well, they would be if Harry was still with us. And if Rod Stewart turned up at our folk club singing The Wild Mountain Time unaccompanied at our folk club or Shirley Bassey singing Men of Harlech they would not be out of place. They both have fine voices capable of singing folk songs.

The one and only argument we have is whether a certain songs within a sub genre of folk music (contemporary songs using folk forms and functions) has a place in folk clubs. You say that you know a folk song when you hear it. Well, funnily enough, so do I. So does Stewie. So does Steve. So do millions of others. After all, "There is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like".

So, if it is not subjective, tell us why the examples of contemporary songs using folk forms and functions that both Stewie and I put up would not be welcome performed acoustically at your folk club. Other than you do not like them of course.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:40 AM

Morris practice was good BTW but for one of the dances I play "Early one morning". I suspect that is far from being a traditional dance tune and the dance itself is quite recent. Should I refer to it as contemporary dance using Morris forms and functions? :-)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM

Dave, re early one morning,you could say it is evolving tradition.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:20 AM

"Why on earth would anyone want to compare Seth Lakeman to Harry Cox? "
Wh should anyone put Seth Lakeman's name up on a discussion on what should happen in folk clubs ?
Nothing to do with what they are "capable of doing" - I'm sure Kiri Ti Kanwa could makw a fist of Foggy Dew, but would you book her for a folk club (I'm beginning to thing you might)
It's not what they can singg, it's how they sing it surely ?
THis gets beyond a joke - I really do see little point in continuing Dave - many thanks for describing how you see folk clubs - confirms all my worst fears
I'm realy not goiung to "tell yuo any more" until you address the points I have made
If you don't understand that folk song has an individual identity which distinguishes it from all other forms, in style, sound, in narrative, in function and certainly in importance then we're just on different planets
Not one of you have3 had the decency to address the damage I to a people's culture that I believe you are doing to folk song - instead we got "tolerated" and "inappropriate" ballads and 'ya gotta move on with the times'
Sad, sad, sad, and very disheartening
I think "Sirley Baswey" and "Rod Stewart" has just about done it for me - as far from fok song as it has been known for centuries as you could possibly get
Enjoy your world Dave - I'm glad I never accepted your invitation - would probably end up throwing myself of Malham Cove
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:48 AM

You spectacularly miss the point once again, Jim. It has nothing to do with the singers and everything to do with the songs. The songs can live forever, the singers cannot. I put it to you that our only bone of contention is a number of contemporary songs, not singers, that many of us consider to have folk forms and functions and you do not. Folk clubs are not going to book big names from the pop world anyway but any singer at that club can sing their songs if they consider them to have folk forms and functions.

The argument we are having is whether the songs that Stewie and I proposed do have folk forms and functions. We believe they do. You do not. Simple as that. It is subjective and every time that is pointed out you try to divert the subject or simply deride our choices as nonsense. You do not explain why you think they do not have folk forms and functions and accuse every man and his dog of destroying folk clubs. Diversionary tactics at their worst.

Sorry that you feel that the folk clubs I visit would make you want to kill yourself. I'm afraid that I cannot turn the clock back and make sure that the only contemporary music performed is that written by people born before 1950 or already dead. In fact, I wouldn't want to. I like to hear new songs with folk forms and functions sometimes.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:31 AM

Dunno about a booking, but I'd definitely let Kiri do a floorspot - sell the raffle tickets too, if she wanted.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM

As captain Manwaring said, i think we're getting into the realms of fantasy now...


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:42 AM

" It has nothing to do with the singers and everything to do with the songs. "
Not so
It has to do with the way the songs are sung and how they fit into the description 'folk'
"that our only bone of contention is a number of contemporary songs, "
Tal about spectacularly missing the point
Quite frankly, I wouldnt care how many contemporary songs were sun if they represented a repertoire which was an extension of the tradition
The people I know/knew respected and liked traditional song would be happy to go on singing it, but I would be over the moon if I thought the that tradition had given rise to the creation of a significant number of songs which used the tradition as a template - the stuff put up here are far nearer to the modern disposable genre than anything like folk styles - non-narrative, introspected, over-accompanied.... everything that makes for the short lived output of the music industry
Why do you continue repeating nonsense - I have never suggested that people born after 1950 can't make traditional songs - I am saying they are not - not by those you've put up
By describing a folk scene with only 180 clubs as "health" you are deluding yourself
The link you gave for that claim largely features paid and successful performers - some superstars,a as being indicative of an upsurge in the folk scene
When I first came to the scene I was an apprentice electrician workign on the Liverpool docks - my fellow enthusiasts were warehousemen working in 'Paddy's Market', bus drivers, building workers, shopworkers..... ordinary lads and girls who, without the clubs, would have been confined to listening to thee pap poured out daily on the radio or the occasional Concerts - Cliff Richard and the Shadows, The Crickets, Billy Fury.... saw them all at the Liverpool Empire
The clubs gave us the chance to go out at night and make our own music and song
Now you put up booked stars who made it on the scene enough to get paid - or those who win prizes on the media controlled 'Folkie of tee Year competitions - as "success"
If they's lucky and can afford it, ther are the annual somewhat impersonal festivals where, if you are lucky, you might get the odd song in an overcrowded pub session - the festivals are another sign of the folkie success story
As far as I'm concerned, not only has the music been sold up the Swanee, but so has the very reason it was made in the first place, or ordinary people like me and my friends to communicate with each other artistically and become singers and songmakers in our own right
Missing the point me - not in a million years Dave
Youu and yors have spent a deal of time here avoiding the point - and your responsibility for bringing pout the dying mess that the folk scene has become
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:21 AM

Diversion, diversion, diversion. Focus, Jim. Let's take one song only. The extreme one, Nancy Mulligan written by Ed Sheeran. Forget him singing it. Forget the studio production of it. Pick any singer you like, give them the words and music, let them sing it at a folk club and then tell me it is not a "contemporary song using folk forms and functions" and why. Because, to me, it has all the folk forms and functions you could ask for.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM

Sorry Dave,
Can't be arsed any more until you start responding to what I say and referring to it as a diversion - which they are most certainly not
"let them sing it at a folk club and then tell me it is not a "contemporary song using folk forms and functions"
Delighted to Dave - they are most certainly not "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions"
Explain to me how, apart from being song in folk clubs (where they wouldn't have been given time of day not so long ago) they can possibly claim to be related to folk in any way
Start responding and stop dodging the issue or this is finished an I'll wait to see somebody else is prepared to deal with this honestly Jim,


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:02 AM

One song, Jim. Nancy Mulligan. Full of folk forms and functions. The songs I am referring to all are, which is my answer as to why they are related to folk and that is my honest answer. You are the only one that is saying they are not. Little wonder that you say you are finished if you cannot or will not explain why.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:09 AM

Give us a blue clickie to nancy mulligan, and who knows and let the rest of know what you're talking about. This perchance


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlZXlfda6Y

I was twenty-four years old
When I met the woman I would call my own
Twenty-two grand kids now growing old
In that house that your brother bought ya
On the summer day when I proposed
I made that wedding ring from dentist gold
And I asked her father, but her daddy said, "No
You can't marry my daughter"

[Chorus]
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border

[Verse 2]
Well, I met her at Guy's in the second World War
And she was working on a soldier's ward
Never had I seen such beauty before
The moment that I saw her
Nancy was my yellow rose
And we got married wearing borrowed clothes
We got eight children, now growing old
Five sons and three daughters

[Chorus]
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border

[Verse 3]
From her snow white streak in her jet black hair
Over sixty years I've been loving her
Now we're sat by the fire in our old armchairs
You know Nancy, I adore ya
From a farm boy born near Belfast town
I never worried about the king and crown
'Cause I found my heart upon the southern ground
There's no difference, I assure ya

[Chorus]
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM

That's the one, Al. I did provide a link to it much earlier but thanks for doing it again. Does it sound like it has folk forms and functions to you? IE, strip away the studio production, would it be at home in a folk club?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:48 AM

Sounds like a client=avast&ei=BqWDXNHpLqeX1fAP3reX4A8&q=nancy+mulligan+youtube&oq=Nancy+Mulligan+Utube+&gs_l=psy">PSEUDO=AMERICAN POP song to me Dave
Cnyou compare it to any real folk song - doggeral to boot
It doesn't even sound like an Anmerican folk song
As I said - different planet
Is that really all you've got ?
And still you refuse yto respond to anything else
Bit off a waste of both our times
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 08:05 AM

Interesting. Its more Big Tom and Johnnie McEvoy than sean nos, and   Jim's style.

In a way its a problem the folkscene has brought on itself. Its all very well criticising Jim, but hundreds of times, I've heard folkies say - I HATE COUNTRY MUSIC.

And yet this song, along with Show of Hands Galway farmer would fit vet very comfortably into the repertoire of Big Tom, or Johnny - or even Daniel O'Donnell. Its a bit like Pretty Little Girl from Omagh that Daniel starts his shows with. Which I always think is a bit like Oh Lonesome Me!

I don'tknow why we can't all just get along. It wouldn't bother me hearing it in a folk club. Or much else come to that, as long as it was done competently. Thats the bugbear!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 08:28 AM

canyou compare it to any real folk song

Yes thanks. I can hear the influences many folk songs in the melodic structure. Of any number of polkas in the timing. Of forbidden love winning through in the lyrics. Millions of people would agree. I am equally amazed that you can not see it.

You are right though. Aside from a vote on who thinks the songs that Stewie and I proposed have the necessary form and function there is no way to resolve this. Even then you would not accept the results if the vote were not in your favour.

Let it lie. You carry on mourning the loss of folk clubs and we will continue to enjoy being fooled by good music posing as folk in the folk clubs that no longer exist. :-)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM

Jim, i have given my honest opinion. I have no intention of getting into the fruitless
diatribes to which you have subjected Dave. I know a folk song when I hear it. I have collected recorded folk and roots music for 55 years. As for 'folk idiom' contemporary
songs I agree totally with Dave. You are prepared to accept songs from Bogle, MacColl,Rosselson etc but rubbish others. Your reaction to my clips is total bullshit.
If you couldn't hear most of 'what was being said/sung, you need to have your
ears syringed. The only one that might have presented some difficulty would be the
Stick in the Wheel clip. Maybe I was mistaken that the thread drift was about songs not
performances. 'Shores of America' was orchestrated but could well be presented with minimal accompaniment. Indeed, Argonne Wood is by an American - Mike Craver of the first-rate old-timey group, the Red Clay Ramblers. So what? You asked for examples of what might be acceptable in folk clubs. What about Roy Bailey? He is a master of finding
wonderful songs from songwriters around the globe. Because these are 'folk idiom' songs in his opinion, would he be unwelcome in your folk clubs? That's my lot.

--Stewie.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 09:00 AM

Thanks Stewie. Nice to know I am not a lone voice crying in the wilderness. I thought we were talking about songs too. I suspect Roy Bailey will be OK as he was born before 1950. ;-)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM

Dave, I didn't see your latest post. Your last 2 sentences sum it up perfectly. Let it lie.
We can go on enjoying great music.

--Stewie.,


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 09:07 AM

"fruitless diatribes to which you have subjected Dave."
Dave has chosen to be part of this - that you describe my postings as "diatribes" makes your participation in the discussion pretty pointless I am prepared to accept those you mention because they cohose to use the tradition to make their songs - their compositions fitted into the evenings for decades without complaint because ther sources of inspiration were recognised for what they were
I can't see any point in your throwing mnames and have myu bat them back at you - if you know what genuine folk song sounds like you should be able to judge for yourself
Nothing that has been put up so far vaguely rembles folk style or utterance
Once again   
CAN ANYONE MATCH THIS WITH A FOLK SONG OR STYLE
More and more bizarre
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 09:09 AM

And still no response to the damage that has been done to the real thing
Shame
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 10:34 AM

Nothing that has been put up so far vaguely rembles folk style or utterance

IN YOUR OPINION.

no response to the damage that has been done to the real thing

Because the songs we have put up have done no damage. They have in fact done the reverse. If we stick purely to traditional songs or contemporary songs with etc. etc. only written by people born before 1950 we will encase the whole thing in Amber never to change again. Introducing new material assists growth and encourages younger people to find out about the tradition for themselves.

Let's have one more try to tempt you to the dark side with
This set of young upstarts or This pair of reprobates


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 10:52 AM

Anyroads, I have a date with Captain Marvel and curry in Keighley. No folk songs will be harmed...


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 11:01 AM

"IN YOUR OPINION."
youmade the claims - it is down to you to to explain your chioices and produce comparisons
I have to say that I find your putting this down to "my opinion" and refusal to produce these comparisons or resspond to most of what I have put up downright insulting Dave
I have insuklted bno-one here , and I have had a degree or personal insulting from some people aimed at me
I expected more from you
Sadly, I think we're finished here - don't you ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM

Well you explain to us the qualitative difference between the Brennan on the Moor, and Jesse James, and this bloke blethering on about his family.

It all sounds the same to me. If there is a difference, you need a bloody good ear to spot it.

In all cases its a bloke telling a story, three or four chords - no benjamin Britten stuff here. In all the cases - you could sing it in a pub. Although the bloke in Ed's song didn't rob any banks, or anything much except have kids. And there isn't a chorus for the gang to join in on. Although - he could write one later.

If he or dave wants to call it a folk song - why not? It certainly sounds a bit like some things you would call folk songs. Lets let Ed into the tent. If he pisses in your ear, its Dave's fault.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 12:22 PM

Sorry Al
Duidn't understand any of that
ritish folk songs are basically unnacompained so chords don't come into it for a start
You can sing anything in a pub - are you suggesting that anything you can is a folksong ?
"If he or dave wants to call it a folk song - why not?
Dave can call whatever he wants a fok song - he has left me with the impression he does, which is why we have no grounds to communicate with each other on a treead which claims =t be about "Traditional Music and Folklore Collection and Community"
We give things names so wr can find them when we want them - otherwise we may as well call them "things" or "songs" or "whatsits"
AS I said, I didn't understand a word of that
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:02 PM

A quick question before Casualty
"Inflexible" - "closed minded"
Can anyone here put their hand up and honestly say they have conceded a single point here, or can anyone point to anybody who has ?
A rhetorical question, of course
Jim


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