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UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 19 - 04:21 PM
Jack Campin 13 Mar 19 - 04:22 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 19 - 08:39 PM
GUEST,Bill S from Adelaide 14 Mar 19 - 03:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Mar 19 - 04:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 04:07 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 19 - 04:43 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 19 - 04:47 AM
Liamtho 14 Mar 19 - 04:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 05:11 AM
Howard Jones 14 Mar 19 - 05:22 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 19 - 07:07 AM
GUEST 14 Mar 19 - 07:12 AM
Howard Jones 14 Mar 19 - 07:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 07:58 AM
Howard Jones 14 Mar 19 - 07:58 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 19 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Roger Moss 14 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM
The Sandman 14 Mar 19 - 09:31 AM
Howard Jones 14 Mar 19 - 09:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 09:57 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 11:04 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 11:16 AM
Vic Smith 14 Mar 19 - 11:28 AM
Iains 14 Mar 19 - 11:35 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 19 - 12:02 PM
Howard Jones 14 Mar 19 - 12:32 PM
The Sandman 14 Mar 19 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 14 Mar 19 - 01:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 03:06 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 19 - 03:18 PM
Vic Smith 14 Mar 19 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 14 Mar 19 - 03:52 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 03:58 PM
The Sandman 14 Mar 19 - 06:29 PM
The Sandman 14 Mar 19 - 06:37 PM
r.padgett 15 Mar 19 - 04:01 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Mar 19 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 19 - 04:56 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Mar 19 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 19 - 05:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Mar 19 - 05:37 AM
Howard Jones 15 Mar 19 - 06:08 AM
GUEST 15 Mar 19 - 06:09 AM
beachcomber 15 Mar 19 - 06:36 AM
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 04:21 PM

No idea what you are getting so shirty about, Jim. The only blame I have laid is on austerity while you seem to be blaming me and anyone who agrees with me for the demise of folk music.

I have posted links to my own stuff. You say it is not folk and that I am driving people away from folk clubs in their thousands. Come on, give me a clue here. Of the 4 songs I have on YouTube, 2 are indisputebly folk, 1 is a contemporary song in the folk idiom written by Peter Knight and one is a dance tune played on a traditional anglo concertina. Are they all so awful that they drive people away or just some of them? Or is it just me? I have a few other songs I perform either accompanied or not. I think they are mainly, if not all, traditional folk somgs. Apart from my showing a liking for some music from this millenium, which I never perform, how am I harming folk clubs?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 04:22 PM

You are never, ever going to persuade anyone to listen to your kind of music by telling them that what they currently listen to (e.g. Ed Sheeran) is crap. All you will do is come across as a grumpy old fool who can't appreciate something obviously gorgeous and whose opinion is utterly worthless.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 08:39 PM

"No idea what you are getting so shirty about, Jim"
Really - after all this time you still churn out the same old same old without being prepared to back up your statements
Not shirty - just disappointed
Sheeran has nothing to do with folk song - my point
If you can say I'm a grumpy old fool for not liking something you do, does that make my expressing my opinion any different than you expressing yours or does it make you a grumpy (whatever you are) fool
We appear to live in a world of untouchable superstars and indignant followers
"You say it is not folk "
If my memory serves me, I said your own stuff was fine - can you correct me please
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Bill S from Adelaide
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:59 AM

I waded through a lot of posts without finding a reference to the greatest exponent of folk song in the 60's and one who piqued my interest. I refer of course to Rambling Sid Rumpo who was obviously in tune with the folk song revival


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:03 AM

more folk like his music than your music Jim.
thats what it has to do with folk.
he presents his music with professionalism.

the people , you seem to admire - the recordings remind me of my Cecilia Costello album. Which despite beautiful packaging - I can't really remember anyone I've played it to, singing along with.

I don't think I can square the circle.

Dave represents the passion to communicate folksong and music.

You represent the passion to curate what we have and preserve what's disappearing.

Try to understand Jim. There's no Singing together in schools these days. If the austerity freaks had their way - there would be no music at all just IT - so kids could play their fucking computer games. That spirit of post war love of our country and its culture is dead.

Geordie kids don't know The Keel Row. Lincolnshire kids don't know The Lincolnshire Poacher. Cornish kids don't know Trelawney.

People who can reach millions with music and have some awareness of their roots (like Sheeran) are important.

You don't have to love what they do - just try to understand and stop dissing other peoples efforts.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM

Jim, you seem to have replied to both me and Jack without taking a breath. It is little wonder that your arguments come across as unstructured at times. Please take time to separate the points so we know what you are talking about. If we stick to one point at a time there is little room for confusion.

If my memory serves me, I said your own stuff was fine - can you correct me please

I'm afraid that your memory does fail you. It was only yesterday that posted this.

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

Dave
You choose to call what yuo do folk - you refuse to respond to teh damage that attitude has done to real folk music


There is only one way I can interpret this. I do call what I do folk. You do not it folk and tell me that it is damaging 'real folk music'. You do not say what I think or what I say but what I do. The only things you know that I do are the clips I have posted of me performing on YouTube. I did ask what you call them if you do not call them folk and you have just diverted the topic. I can only assume that you do not want to tell me how you think that my performances are doing so much damage.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:07 AM

...and a big yes to Rambling Sid, Bill S. :-) Thanks for the reminder. I must digitise the cassette tapes I have one day


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:43 AM

"It is little wonder that your arguments come across as unstructured at times"
I do my best Dave - I've had about half a century of singing and work to make up my mind what I believe folk song to be - if I am going to decide I got it all wrong I need more than a handful of excuses
"I do call what I do folk."
Then you need to justify your doing so in order to make sense of what you do
If everybody did that we wouldn't be able to distinguish between the myriad types of music at our disposal

"more folk like his music than your music Jim"
Of course they do Al - he has the power of the music industry behind him and the support of Elton John on occasion - that's what makes him a pop singer rather than a folk singer
If I worried about numbers I'd have stayed with Eddie Chochrane and Ricky Nelson all those year ago.
Your arguments become more and more illogical - I have documented evidence to identify my music, along with arguments, discussions, explanations, and social history - do you have any to back up your claim

This is not unlike what's happening in Westminster at present - a decision has been taken that will cause great harm, yet those involved plough on with it anyway - now you are using the same argument they are - "The people have spoken"
Madness
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:47 AM

A simple point
On the one hand we are discussing one very identifiable and specific type of music - on the other you are arguing that no barrier exists and anything that you choose to call folk music is folk music
The two of us can't be right - specific or non specific - what is it to be ?
You can't decide among yourselves what music you are talking about enough to define it- lets's see if you can agree on that one
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Liamtho
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:49 AM

I have just written a nostalgic song looking back on my early years in Folk.

https://soundcloud.com/user-510776558/sing-a-song-of-yesterday


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM

"I do call what I do folk."
Then you need to justify your doing so in order to make sense of what you do


I have justified it, Jim. I have put up links of me performing what I do. You keep telling us it is not folk but do not tell us why. There are 4 clips of me doing what I do. They are.

1. The old cock crows. Unaccompanied. Folk song.
2. Guitar piece, The waltz of the bells. Learned off my Dad who learned it from Gypsies in his native Poland before the war. You don't get much more folky.
3. The wind than shakes the barley. Sung with concertina accompaniment. OK, this may be debatable as it is contemporary, written by Peter Knight in the 1990s. I think it uses the folk idiom pretty well though.
4. Tommy don't go. Waltz tune played on traditional anglo concertina. I got this from a concertina tutor. Presumably written by the author who's name escapes me. If you want to dispute this one as it has a known writer, fine. Just dismiss all of O'Carolan's work while you are at it.

So, there you have it. Justification for what I do. NB Not what I think or what I like, but what I do. Actions speak louder than words.

Once again, how is what I do not folk? If it is not, I obviously need to stop doing it in folk clubs.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:11 AM

Purely out of interest, the site I often use for research of songs is 'Mainly Norfolk'.

I like their sub-title. "English Folk and Other Good Music" :-)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:22 AM

Jim, you claim that "by removing folk from the folk clubs you have driven people away in their thousands".

The problem I have with that argument is that what I hear in folk clubs today is not very different from what I heard in the 70s and 80s. Whatever it was that caused the decline in folk clubs, I don't think it was the material being performed. The type of music you could expect to hear in clubs back then (and now) was determined more by style than origin, and encompassed contemporary folk, music hall, Sacred Harp and other forms alongside traditional "1954" folk. What made them acceptable to the audiences was the style in which they were performed.

I think the idea that the folk clubs somehow safeguarded traditional singing is mistaken. The folk club movement as I experienced it in the 70s and 80s was not very interested in authentic "source" traditional singers, it was principally concerned with the folk revival, which has developed its own style of performance which is largely accompanied. In more than 20 years of visiting folk clubs several times a week, in different parts of the country, I saw only two traditional singers in folk clubs - the Copper Family and Walter Pardon. For the first 10 years of my involvement in folk I was simply unaware that authentic traditional music still existed, with the exception of the Coppers (who I took to be a unique and anachronistic survival).

The regrettable fact is that authentic traditional singing and playing has always been a minority interest, even amongst those who who are interested in folk music. For most of them, this means "revival folk". Traditional singing is too raw and too different from what they are accustomed to listening to, especially when it is only available on record without the immediacy of being in the room. This is hard core stuff, and most people who enjoy revival folk don't make that leap.

I think Jim may have been exceptionally fortunate in being involved in particular folk clubs and with a particular group of people who took a special interest not only in traditional music and traditional singers but in understanding it and discussing it. I don't think this was typical of most clubs, certainly not by the time I became involved at the end of the 60s, when the clubs were places of entertainment rather than study.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM

"The problem I have with that argument is that what I hear in folk clubs today is not very different from what I heard in the 70s and 80s"
Maybe in your part of the world Howard and plenty of evidence to show that's the case
Ive just digitised articles of interest in our magazine collection in preperation for donating them to Limeric Uni's World music department - the magazines, particularly the long standing ones like FDolk Review were overwhelmingly traditional based, Keith summers produced a series oof excellent series which weer puerly traditional - largely based on source performers
An enerprising member of this forum, CJB has been busy making radio programmes available - including big chunks of programmers like Folk on Two - heavily traditional - bever a Elton John duetist to be seen
p to ten years ago Steve Roud was turning away non-traditional material, as was correct - I still don't see 'Ed Sheeran's 'Galway Girl' in his listings
People knew the difference between fol songs and pop songs well into the 21st century - the sell-out has been a comparatively new fly in the folk ointment
None of my experiences were 'fortunate" - clubs did what they'd committede tehmselves to do and we could choose on the basis of how they did it
No longer this case with the mish-mash that now passes for 'folk'
As you say - folk has always been a minority interest - even at the time the tradition was in full swing - this is the first time it's ever been threatened with extinction due to indifference and antipathy
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:07 AM

Whoops
"plenty of evidence to show that was not the case elsewhere"
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:12 AM

did anybody ever answer the original question?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:24 AM

did anybody ever answer the original question?

Don't be daft, this is Mudcat


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:58 AM

You got waylaid again, Jim. See 14 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:58 AM

Jim, the majority of the music I heard in folk clubs was "traditionally based" and still is. However the guests these clubs booked were folk revival singers - Martin Carthy, Nic Jones, Tony Rose, and their ilk. For those of us who sang and played ourselves, our sources were books and these performers' LPs. Very few of us looked to authentic source singers such as Walter Pardon for our material, and only very rarely did they appear as performers at folk clubs. The folk scene I knew was very much centred on modern, and usually accompanied, interpretations of folk, rather than the "real thing", which many of us were not aware still existed.

Alongside the traditional songs, these audiences were also willing to listen to a very wide range of other music, even the occasional pop song, provided that stylistically it sounded like folk as performed in clubs (easier to recognise than define). It was an aesthetic judgement. This didn't seem to stop the clubs from thriving during the boom years, and neither did it crowd out traditionally-sourced material.

Did I like everything I heard? Of course not, but that applied to some traditional songs too. On the whole I think I'd prefer to hear a modern song performed well than a traditional song performed badly. I'd also prefer to hear a good song rather than a poor one, and "traditional" is not always an indication of quality.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:20 AM

""traditionally based""
You're luck if that still is the case, that's not what is being argued for here and is not generally the case - Rod Stradling's editorial has presented the consequences of that quite starkly
"also willing to listen to a very wide range of other music, "
TNothing wrong with that, but when iit's what happens at a folk club you are not honouring you promise to your audiences by calling yourself what you do 'folk' - you are in fact talking about song clubs
It is the confusion and decline that we are discussing
Here in Ireland, we have 'singing circles' where what goes on depends largely on the who turns up
If the area has had a strong singing tradition, you are bound to get a dominance of traditional songs, usually sung well
We are extremely lucky in that Clare has a powerful traditional song and music history and our local Circle in Kilshanny is run by a good singer with a strong feel for traditional songs and the intelligence to balance the evening out and book guests with who have a sense of the tradition
Some I've tried don't so I don't bother going back - that's not a criticism of them, just me exercising my personal taste
In England I no longer have that luxury, which is why so many of us stopped going to clubs when we realised we were being conned
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Roger Moss
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM

Nice to see that the spirit of semantic antagonism is still alive and well, after all these years.
My own point of view hasn't changed, either: during my folk club days and nights I'd happily enjoy live performances from The Young Tradition, John Renbourn, Ewan McColl, Malcolm Price, The Dransfields, Gerry Lockran... you name them.
As long as it was well performed with commitment and a dash of charisma I'd give it a chance, and so did most audiences back then.
Perhaps it's time to calm down, sit back and enjoy the music again...


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:31 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLdYamFmM3g UNLIKE HOWARD I WAS INFLUENCED BY TRADITIONAL SINGERS ,WILLIE SCOTT BOB LEWIS HARY COX ETC


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:35 AM

Rod is selling recordings of authentic traditional singers, not of folk revival performers. This is a minority interest even among those who like folk music. These are not singers who would very often be heard in folk clubs, if at all. What he does, which is admirable, has nothing to do with folk clubs.

"You are not honouring you promise to your audiences by calling yourself what you do 'folk' - you are in fact talking about song club" If that is the case then most folk clubs have been misdescribing themselves from the 60s onwards.

The decline of clubs probably has a number of causes, but I don't think the balance between traditionally sourced and other material has changed much, so I doubt this is the reason. What puts me off many clubs is not any lack of traditional music but the decline in standards, which has been discussed at length elsewhere. This is ironic, because at the other end of the scale standards of performance appear to be higher then ever, and young performers have access to better instruments and better tuition than ever before.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:57 AM

I would agree that declining standards play a part Howard and due to much higher standards at, as you point out, the other end, maybe audience tolerance of poorer standards has decreased too!

As you say, there are a number of reasons and they will all play their part.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM

"This is a minority interest even among those who like folk music"
These are singers who have filled shelves of record shops from teh beginning of the revival, have merited records and record labels of their own and have filled entire sets of books and are continuing to do so the magnificent Carpenter Collection is now on line - from day one 'Folk' has been a minority activity, as has Shakespeare and Classical Music - that in no way diminishes their importance and ability to entertain - all of a sudden, the fact that they are a "minority activity" becomes and excuse for the exodus from the clubs and the often hostility shown towards them
If a magnificent 2 CD Sam Lerner set can only sell 3 copies of now unavailable, some unreleased material (we bought one) , something has gone severely wrong and it is irresponsible to suggest otherwise
Not a great sign that new blood is being attracted probably the most important genre op people's culture, is it ?

"I don't think the balance between traditionally sourced and other material has changed much"
Of course it has
You have ignored what I have said Howard - I described what the magazines and radio programmes covered and no longer do yet you repeat yourself without responding to what I put up
You excuses for what has gone wrong are not unlike Dave's: one minute it is "nothing has gone wrong, next it is exuses of why it has

"Perhaps it's time to calm down, sit back and enjoy the music again..."
Perhaps you should direct your comments to those who insult with terms like "folk police" and "inflexible"
I have fairly calmly put my case as coherently as I am able; I have insulted no-one and, to be honest, am enjoying watching people running around defending the indefensible   
At least we seem to have broken the barrier that has made discussion of these topics a no-go area up to now - a step in the right direction, I suppose, if a small one
Who knows, maybe I'll live long enough to see the groundbreaking work MacColl and Seeger did with The Critics as calmly as this - stranger things happen at sea, as my mam used to say
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:04 AM

not unlike Dave's: one minute it is "nothing has gone wrong, next it is exuses of why it has

It would be much better if you addressed my post 14 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM before making new allegations, Jim. That way there will be no confusion as to whatever point it is about me that you are trying to make. Keep it simple for us all. Address one point at a time.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM

"14 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM "
I have Dave, several times
I have no problem with any of those - it's your "Ed Sheeran thing I can't get past
I've said the but, one more time
I I hwas at an evening where what you put up was the level of what happened - no problem; alitle limited maybe - the repertoire is much wider than those, but fine
It's not them I'm arguing against - it's everything else you and others are defending
Where does he fit in with any of those songs?tunes
Please don't raise this again - it's been sorted a long tiome ago as far as I'm concerned
I put up what I believe to be the features that identify folk songs - you keep saying you've responded - you really haven't
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:16 AM

Jim, you said what I do damages folk song. Not what I say or what I think. I take it the last response was another one of those about face moments. I should be used to them by now I suppose...

it's your "Ed Sheeran thing I can't get past

I like some songs by Ed Sheeran. I like some songs by Led Zeppelin. I like some songs by The Dixie Chicks, but I never 'do' them so how does that damage folk clubs?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:28 AM

The subject of this thread, "UK 60s Folk Club Boom?" - not that it has had much of a chance to be discussed - is dealt with in the context of the 80th birthday of Topic records in an article in the Spring 2019 edition of fRoots that dropped through my letter box this morning. Colin Irwin uses Norma Waterson as his main interviewee for the article and there are discussions of the role that Lloyd and MacColl played in what might be called Topic's second phase when the emphasis was on traditional performers and the Stewarts, Barry & Gorman and the McPeakes are mentioned before it goes on to the role that the label played in the careers of Carthy, the Watersons, Shirley Collins etc.
It is dense and well-written and there is a lot of information to serve as a reminder for those of us who were involved during these years and as a background for those who were not lucky enough to be around at that time.
In another article Kevin Burke reflects on the London Irish music scene in the 1960s which ran in parallel but was distinct from the folk club scene.
Al Whittle somewhere above rightly mentions the importance of Joan Baez to the 1960s club scene; she took a break during a recent farewell British tour to reminisce about her early involvement and that forms another interesting article in this issue.

There is also a lot of articles about the current vibrant folk and traditional scene in these islands - one on the excellent Rowan Rheingans, a feature on an adventurous new album Oran Bagraidh that brings together young Scots and Irish Gaelic-speaking singers and introduces a newly-researched form of Gaelic, called here "Galloway Gaelic" which appears to be unintelligible to the two more widely spoken forms of that language. Many will be in a well documented career perspective on Martin Simpson.
Then there are full-length reviews of over 100 recent albums and the same number of shorter pieces on lots others including some reissues of the classic Topic albums from the 1960s.
I find it indispensable and the 148 pages will keep me reading until the next one emerges.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:35 AM

Does "travelling soldier" by the Dixie Chicks bridge the divide between C&W and Contemporary folk?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 12:02 PM

"not that it has had much of a chance to be discussed -"
You seemed quite happy to discuss this before you left Vic
People seemed wuit happy to continue this particular aspect in your absence
Kevin Burke
We introduced Kevin to the Folk Club scene via three cubs I was involved in, The Singers, The west London Club and The Railway in Stratford East - he took to it like a duck to water and said in an interview that it was a pleasant change to play to attentive audiences - others, such as Tom McCarthy, who we also introduced to folk clubs, said the same

"Jim, you said what I do damages folk song."
I said hat you advocated damaged folk music - if \I at any timne said you, it was a general comment aimed at those who share your ';'anything goes' view
You already know this; you've said how you don't have the time or inclination to get involved in organisation
"I never 'do' them so how does that damage folk clubs?"
You put him up as being appropriate for the title 'folk'
Are you going ti include Led Zeppelin and The Dixie Chicks in that - as much as I admire the latter for their stand against Trump, I sincerely hope not
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 12:32 PM

We can only go on our own experiences, and we should be cautious about drawing general conclusions from these. My experience has been that the folk clubs I occasionally attend now are not much different from the ones I attended more regularly 30 or 40 years ago - yours is apparently different. The balance of music I hear is much the same, largely but by no means exclusively traditional. The guests are often the same, together with some excellent young acts coming through. The audiences are certainly mostly the same individuals, but I know many young people who are involved in folk music, they are just not doing it in the same venues as us.

My point is simply that the folk clubs were always about more than just traditional song. They encompassed a broad range of other music, some of it with little connection to traditional song, but unified by a shared approach and style. This broad approach is nothing new, and if it is now a threat to traditional song it must also have been a threat during the boom years, and I simply don't believe this was the case.

I am not trying to diminish the importance of authentic traditional song, far from it. However the reality is that most people discover folk music through the revival, and for most that is sufficient. Only a few go on to discover the "real thing", and the world of folk clubs and festivals does little to steer them towards it. When I eventually discovered traditional singing in the 1970s it was not through folk clubs but through the English Country Music Weekends (which Rod Stradling was instrumental in setting up). It is perhaps even harder now for young people to discover true traditional singing except on record, but they then prefer to stream for free rather than buy CDs.

We are clearly not going to persuade one another, all I can say is that I am more optimistic about the future of folk than you are. Whether this includes folk clubs as we knew them is another matter.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:09 PM

Howard, i was running a club, which i booked you at, I was resident and sang unaccomp-anied tradtional songs, i think this was long before the english country music weekends about cicra i973, it was certainly well before anything john howsopn organised, because that was not until 1980 how do i know well he was a neighbour of mine and i played in a band with him


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:43 PM

Our club at the Marsden Inn, South Shields was regarded highly in the 60s as a successful FOLK club.
Jim Sharp booked the guests, and we had such eminent traditional performers as Paddy Tunney, Hedy West, Davie Stewart, Willie Scott, Fred Jordan, Bobby Casey and Billy Pigg.
From the 'revival' we booked such as Louis Killen, Matt McGinn, the Clutha, Dominic Behan and yes, MacColl and Seeger, Alex Campbell, Finbar & Eddie Furey & Christy Moore
We also enjoyed visits from Tom Paxton, Stefan Grossmann (a resident for a while) Don Partridge the one-man band, the Jarrow based country trio the 'Three Eddies'(only two were called Eddie!!?) and the local Harton Colliery silver Band.
The residents' included songs & tunes from all the above, but also Bob Dylan, PP & M, Carole King, Joni Mitchell, Ralph McTell & such.
We called it a folk club but never worried about what we did was 'folk' or not, and I think adopting the Stalinist approach from Jim carroll would certainly kill the music sooner rather than later.
Irish performers always thoroughly enjoyed their visit to UK folk clubs- people actually listened!Tim Lyons said Tyneside was his favoutite place to sing & play, and the idea that Ireland is a lost World of music is rubbish.

The music thrives in parts of Ireland but quite frankly as a former Irish resident (20 years) you'll find more good music in Northumberland or Sussex than in most Irish counties.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:06 PM

So, once again, you say one thing and mean another. Your exact phrase was

Dave
You choose to call what yuo do folk - you refuse to respond to teh damage that attitude has done to real folk music


I have already said that there is only one way I can interpret this. I do call what I do folk. You do not it folk and tell me that it is damaging 'real folk music'. "You choose to call what you do folk". That is the phrase you used. Not what I like or what I talk about but what I do. If you meant what I say or think, why did you not say that? You have had ample opportunity to put it right and getting to your actual meaning has been challenging. Not being pedantic or picky here. It is just that on here we only have words to convey our meaning and the choice of words is very important.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:18 PM

"Northumberland or Sussex than in most Irish counties."
You edto get out more Jim
Kids are pouring in at a rate of knots and even the media is sitting up and taking notice
Northumberland is a good place for instrumental music, but friends who live there say it's patchy

"I am not trying to diminish the importance of authentic traditional song, "
A litle partonising I thing - but better than being "tolerated" I suppose
Most peopple did discover folk song via the revaival - I diin't know abybody who didn't apart from the traditional singers we met
Now that that is gone as a reliable source, one wonders where the next generation are going to discover it - if they do
"It is perhaps even harder now for young people to discover true traditional singing except on record"
The problem in a nutshell - what are we arguing about then !
I was never expecting to persuade anybody - but I come away from this totally enlightened as to the state of things, for which, thanks
Sorry Dave - I really can't be bothered to argue if you are going to nit-pick to make me dishonest
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:22 PM

Jim Bainbridge wrote:-
"we had such eminent traditional performers as Paddy Tunney, Hedy West, Davie Stewart, Willie Scott, Fred Jordan, Bobby Casey and Billy Pigg.
From the 'revival' we booked such as Louis Killen, Matt McGinn, the Clutha, Dominic Behan and yes, MacColl and Seeger, Alex Campbell, Finbar & Eddie Furey & Christy Moore
We also enjoyed visits from Tom Paxton, Stefan Grossmann (a resident for a while) Don Partridge the one-man band"


Well, that was the sort of mix that I remember from my early days of running folk clubs. In Lewes, I booked 5 of the traditional performers that Jim mentions and quite a few that he doesn't - Jane Turriff, Lizzie Higgins, Belle & Alex etc. and the same range of revivalists as well. And we met a Geordie at the Blairgowrie festival, thought he was good so we booked him as well. He was not known in Sussex back then, but I raved about him to our audience for a few weeks before he came and we ended up with a full house for him. After that we booked him quite often over the next 40 years. His name? Jim Bainbridge.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:52 PM

Howard,

It would appear from your post above that you are under the impression that Jim Carroll attends a UK folk club.

It would appear from his posts that he chooses to live in exile and hasn't set foot in an English folk club for years. But still believes in his own mind that he knows what is going on in them.

The club he mainly attended in London from 1966 I believe was the Singer's Club. If my memory is correct Jim said that it did not call itself a Folk Club, I guess that was because Ewan was more interested in Theatre.

The truth is that there is far more folk material of all descriptions from around the world readily available than EVER in the past. You no longer have to go to a club.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:58 PM

No nit picking in the slightest, Jim.

Version 1. You choose to call what yuo do folk - you refuse to respond to teh damage that attitude has done to real folk music

Version 2. I said hat you advocated damaged folk music

Can you not see that those are 2 entirely different statements? If I had not have pushed you on it version 1 would have stood and people would have been left with the impression that what I do damages folk music. I am just suggesting that it you were more careful in your phrasing we could avoid a lot of misunderstanding and unnecessary discusdion. OK?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 06:29 PM

I disagree with jim bainbridge.
I have just come back from bantry CCE session, run by musicians Tom Sullivan and Mary Tisdall, i had an enjoyable couple of hours.here they are playing on a different occasion with the mcauliffes.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qk9KDYjcRM
Jim Bainbridge is deluding himself if he claims that better music can be found in northumberland and sussex,that isthe sort of silly competitive suff that CCEis often accused of, Iwould say that the instrumental music is no better just differentlikewise the song side , both are good but different, thank god for that if we all played the same way it would be tedious


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 06:37 PM

JIM B , If i was to say there was more good instrumental music in county clare and county kerry and sliabh luchra than there was in every english county other than northumberland what would your reaction be?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:01 AM

Folk song and music is not a competition ~ although I know competitions do exist

Is it not an art form? ~ with or without use of instruments other than the voice

Ray


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:55 AM

Well that's the trouble with the whole thread.

Who can be the most pure in heart and fundamentalist?

Okay Jim, you've won.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:56 AM

"If i was to say there was more good instrumental music in county clare and county kerry and sliabh luchra than there was in every english county other than northumberland what would your reaction be?"
In my experience, I have never seen Irish music doing as well as it is doing at present and not just in the Counties you mention
The mass taking up of traditional music, while being patchy in places, seems to be nationwide - I would guess that it's those counties with a history of such muic that is leading the way
I think the major breakthroughs were first, the establishment of a music scool here in Miltown Malbay to honour the Memory of piper, Willie Clancy (now in it's 48th year I think - lost count)and the setting up of the Irish Traditional Music Archive
That has established a foundation based on the Tradition and guaranteed a future for the - yes - art form   
While I agree totally with Ray that it should not be a competition, I certainly believe that Ireland's success is an example to Britain as to what can be done when the musc is taken seriously
We attended a talk given by the Piper, Tommy Keane, on his father-in -law, fellow piper and concertina player, Tom McCarthy a couple of weeks ago
After the talk we listened to the McCarthy Family - children and grandchildren, playing superbly, I have little doubt that it won't be too long before the grandchildren's children will be playing as well
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 05:08 AM

dave swarbrick had to put up with that garbage all his life.

The usual line was,   there are ten year olds in Ireland who play better fiddle than Swarbrick.
Always by people who didn't have a clue about anything.

I remember with fierce joy the occasion when derek Brimstone was talking enthusiastically about a Scottish piper _ ithink, in Five Hand reel. Not my cup of tea...but anyway
What do YOU know about piping, said one of our celtic cousins
More than you, you cunt, said Derek. he'd served his National Service as a drummer in a pipe band.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 05:25 AM

"The usual line was,   there are ten year old in Ireland who play better fiddle than Swarbrick."
There weren't then - there are now Al
One of the great things that has happened is that pupils of ten years ago are now teaching
Bit dismissive to describe it as garbage - you need to listen to standards now
Your description of Brimstone does him no favours
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 05:37 AM

"The usual line was,   there are ten year old in Ireland who play better fiddle than Swarbrick."
There weren't then - there are now Al


There are now Dave Swarbrick is dead.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:08 AM

Sorry Jim, that wasn't meant to be patronising, I was trying to convey that I also regard traditional music as important. But folk clubs have always embraced more than traditional music. My preference is trad, but I have heard plenty of good music in folk clubs which wasn't traditional, and plenty of performances of trad which have bored me rigid.

Where will young people discover folk music, now the clubs have declined? Serendipity, I suppose, just as most of us did. It will usually be a chance encounter with folk that leads people into it. I doubt many people discover folk at a folk club - they come across it elsewhere and that leads them to visit venues putting on folk music to hear more. In our day that meant folk clubs, today there are other options.

Some young people will have been introduced by parents who are folkies, or parents of friends. They have the internet - they use music streaming services which recommend new music based not only on what they have listened to before but what their friends are listening to. There is plenty of folk music on these services so it is quite possible that folk will be among the recommendations. For those who want to seek out the real thing, VOTP is on Spotify.

What they don't seem to be very interested in is sitting in the back room of a dingy old-man's pub with people old enough to be their grandparents, and who can blame them? We wouldn't at their age. They do things their own way, at venues which may or may not be called folk clubs. They go to house concerts and festivals. They are both listening to and performing folk music, and often to very high standards.

Times have changed, and there are other gateways into folk besides folk clubs. But I made this point several hundred posts earlier.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:09 AM

800 - and still no answer to the original question. Is this a Mudcat record ?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: beachcomber
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:36 AM

Aaah, what was your question again ?


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