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UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Jim Carroll 21 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 21 Mar 19 - 07:23 AM
GUEST 21 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM
GUEST 21 Mar 19 - 07:49 AM
GUEST 21 Mar 19 - 07:51 AM
Will Fly 21 Mar 19 - 08:25 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 19 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Tootler sans Cookie 21 Mar 19 - 09:44 AM
Howard Jones 21 Mar 19 - 09:58 AM
GUEST 21 Mar 19 - 09:38 AM
Jack Campin 21 Mar 19 - 09:39 AM
Jack Campin 21 Mar 19 - 09:46 AM
The Sandman 21 Mar 19 - 10:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 19 - 10:44 AM
GUEST 21 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM
Big Al Whittle 21 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 19 - 11:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 19 - 11:23 AM
Big Al Whittle 21 Mar 19 - 11:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 19 - 11:49 AM
Iains 21 Mar 19 - 12:06 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 19 - 12:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 19 - 12:32 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 19 - 12:47 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Mar 19 - 01:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 19 - 01:23 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 19 - 01:26 PM
Jack Campin 21 Mar 19 - 01:58 PM
Big Al Whittle 21 Mar 19 - 01:58 PM
The Sandman 21 Mar 19 - 02:07 PM
GUEST 21 Mar 19 - 02:10 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 19 - 02:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 19 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 21 Mar 19 - 03:52 PM
Big Al Whittle 21 Mar 19 - 03:54 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 19 - 04:26 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 19 - 02:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 19 - 03:18 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 19 - 04:34 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 Mar 19 - 04:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 19 - 04:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 Mar 19 - 05:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 19 - 05:05 AM
Vic Smith 22 Mar 19 - 06:03 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 19 - 06:15 AM
GUEST,DtG sans biscuit 22 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 19 - 07:06 AM
Vic Smith 22 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM

Sorry Freddie
I really am having a problem with my sound on Mudcat so I can't listen to it
I've read the text and it seems fine

"Why didn't someone amonst the thousands of true folkies open clubs that operated as they would like,
It took many years of organisation and united effort to organise the present scene - a century, if you count EFDSS
The clubs gradually deteriorated
Quite frankly I find it arrogant that somebody should say, "We've taken over your clubs - now **** of and organise some more (that we might or might not decide to take over if the mood takes us)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:23 AM

I really don't understand why you're all so anxious to get Jim's seal of approval.
You've seen what he thinks is the real deal.

You disagree about the nature of folk music. He's convinced he is right. He is dismissive of the music that does it for you.

Why not pay him the same courtesy?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM

Not arrogant Jim,if you run the club you set the rules,if performers flout the rules you don't give them a spot.
If the club was set up by true folkies they should have enforced their policy.If the club was set up to include other material the true folkies should tolerate that policy or find a club to their taste.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM

"Not arrogant Jim,if you run the club you set the rules,if performers flout the rules you don't give them a spot."
Arrogabt yes - the clubs were set up to give a platform to a certain type of song
An openly aggressive hostile takeover is as arrogant as as it gets "might is right"
It doesn't just include the clubs - it also includes the brand name, which has done incalculable damage to the real thing
You must be aware of the numerous court battles that have occurred over identity theft by products - from hamburgers to champagne - and how much it costs for a manufacturer to protect his/her product   
Anybody who suggests that clubs are open to anybody walking in from the street and presenting whatever they wish can have no regard either for the people whoi put in te original hard work of the music itself
Arrogance and identity theft are the terms that spring to my mind
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:49 AM

"Anybody who suggests that clubs are open to anybody walking in from the street and presenting whatever they wish can have no regard either for the people whoi put in te original hard work of the music itself
Arrogance and identity theft are the terms that spring to my mind"

I'm not suggesting that clubs are open to anybody who walks in of the street doing any thing they like with no regard to club policy.
Clubs have a policy and should not tolerate uninvited behavior,if they don't they only have themselves to blame,I've never seen any performer bring his own enforcers and force the audience to listen.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:51 AM

That should read if they do


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 08:25 AM

I've never seen any performer bring his own enforcers and force the audience to listen.

I have - just the once. It was at the BBC Folk Club - "Clanfolk" - in the Marquis of Clanricarde in Bayswater in the early 1970s. The booked act was Martin Carthy, and I was the then organiser and booker. Just as Martin had started his act, in walks Dominic Behan, pissed, with two large Irish blokes with him - very obviously his "minders".

Behan stalked to the front of the stage, pushed Martin in the chest - Martin stumbled back, luckily into a chair - and then proceeded to sing Irish rebel/anti-English songs at the top of his voice. Being in no mood to tackle two large blokes - though I would have happily slung Behan out if he'd been on his own - I went downstairs and summoned Danny, the even larger Irish landlord. Up came Danny and out went the trio.

What struck me afterwards was Martin's calmness and patience at the time - though he remembered it all with a grimace when I met him, many years later at a Christmas concert in Shoreham!

But that's the one and only time I've encountered such an incident at a folk club.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:15 AM

"
I'm not suggesting that clubs are open to anybody who walks in of the street doing any thing they like with no regard to club policy."
That's always happened - too regularly, but more than that - you've taken over the brand name
I stopped going to folk clubs whe they stopped presenting folk songs - as did thousands of others
What I've bgained from conversations here is that quite a few people don't actually like folk song - some pay lip service by patronising its importance but on a number of occasions some have been openly hostile
THat cannot be a "healthy" folk scene - in fact it's sharp practice

There is a legend that Pete Seeger took an axe to the amplifier cables when Dylan appeared at Newport - denied
The more heartwarming and not quite the same occasion was when Joe Heaney appeared at a Clancy Brothers concert in Dublin Concert the audience tried to boo him off the stage until Liam demanded that they listen to him
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Tootler sans Cookie
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:44 AM

One thing that strikes me about these discussions is the intolerance of each others perspectives.

There is no one way to interpret a folk song, as with any other form of music.

If you don't like someone else's interpretation, so be it. It doesn't mean it's wrong, or necessarily even a poor interpretation.

I think it's worth bearing in mind Martyn Carthy's comment on folk song.

"The worst thing we can do with these songs is not to sing them"

Think on that when you condemn someone else's version of a traditional song.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:58 AM

The brand name was taken over in the 60s, if not earlier. I could never understand why, for example, the Incredible String Band or Nick Drake were considered to be "folk", they certainly weren't to my taste, but the fact remains that they were regarded as folk, and that you could expect to hear that sort of stuff, and more, in folk clubs alongside traditional songs and those in a traditional mould. That hasn't changed.

You say that you stopped going to folk clubs when they stopped presenting folk songs, whereas the experience of me and others is that they are still presenting folk songs, even in the narrower sense of "folk" that you mean. I think the difference between us is that we are willing to accept that we might hear other songs as well, and that some of it might bear little or no resemblance to traditional song other than a certain similarity in the way it is performed. We are willing to acknowledge that in most cases these fall within the scope of what the folk clubs have always regarded as appropriate music. We don't see any evidence that including this music, which has always been part of the folk club scene, is damaging traditional singing.

Sometimes someone may overstep the mark and sings something inappropriate, that's only to be expected especially where there can be no clear consensus on where the mark lies.

I sorry that you seem to have persuaded yourself that the folk clubs are now free-for-alls. I admit that some clubs are like that, but I find that in most clubs I will hear folk music, however you want to define it.

I have other reasons for not attending clubs so often these days, the standard of performance being one of them, but when I want to hear traditional songs I can usually be confident that I can find them.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:38 AM

I've never seen such an incident Will,as you say almost unique,but it was swiftly dealt with.If people behave improperly, they should be corrected and if they persist excluded,doing nothing but moan or walking away and they have been allowed to win.
My experience is much the same as Howard's,both sorts of club were available in my area and you went to whichever suited you,many went to both.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:39 AM

I could never understand why, for example, the Incredible String Band or Nick Drake were considered to be "folk"

Robin Williamson published two books of traditional tunes which made them very accessible. That fitted in with the instrumental breaks in the songs and tied what he was doing to the tradition. For me, the books have worn a lot better than the recordings, which I would not make any effort to listen to again.

I never even heard of Drake until he'd been dead for 20 years (and realized I hadn't missed anything). Did he actually label himself as "folk"?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:46 AM

You disagree about the nature of folk music. [Jim]'s convinced he is right. He is dismissive of the music that does it for you.

Why not pay him the same courtesy?


Because the way he comes across makes people who love traditional music look like hate-crazed bigots. And hardly any of us are like that. He's conducting black propaganda against the whole trad scene and repelling people who might otherwise be drawn to it. We can't tolerate that behaviour.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 10:26 AM

Why didn't someone amonst the thousands of true folkies open clubs that operated as they would like,if Jim is right with his claims, the clubs would be full of the faithful and thrivin@
i suugest you visit the welly folk club or stockton or darlington britt,


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 10:44 AM

I'm not seeking anyone's approval, Al.

I'm not trying to catch anyone out, Dick. I was asking you because you are a performer and Jim is not.

Jim, it is just your opinion. Nothing more. I do enjoy what I see and hear at folk clubs and I enjoy our conversations. They both have their occasional downsides but I can live with that.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM

Tell Jim such clubs exist Dick,he insists they are extinct.
Any club of any flavour will thrive only if there is a large enough
audience in its catchment area.this is equaly true wether it is trad,contempory or anything else.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM

Come on Jack - he's an old guy going on the way old guys do on a very minority website.


sorry you don't get Nick Drake. I've got to admit - I didn't til he'd been dead about forty years. I was doing a gig at an outside market and there was this bookstall. On it was Trevor Dann's biography of Nick.

I don't know if you know Trevor dann's work. he's the guy who did that amazing series of DVDs - guitar maestro's. Carthy, Wizz Jones, Steve Tilston, Martin Simpson - amongst others. I knew if Trevor Dann was interested enough to write about him, there would be real substance. And there is.

His link to folk music - well its arguable. Much of his first album was influenced by classical composers like vaughan Williams who dabbled in folk music. he was certainly part of that boho Les Cousins set back in the 1960's.

He was an ingenious guitarist creating new tunings to say exactly what he wanted.

The real question is though, when you know someone has fashioned his art in our folk clubs, and creates beautiful songs like Riverman, and Brighten my Northern Sky. Why would you want to disown him from your movement.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:17 AM

"Come on Jack - he's an old guy going on the way old guys do on a very minority website."
C'mon Al
I've never been insulting to you - what's the problem with you peole? Yo whinge and run to sitr when somebody insults you yet have no problem at stooping to ageism when you can't get your way
Come back ewhen any of you can come back with a definition you can describe and agree on or produce anything resembling a track record in folk song
Al personal abuse proves is that you have run out of intelligent answers
hame on you Al - I really did think you were above this shit

"Jim, it is just your opinion."
Stll not found the balls to back up yours Dave - I have given you my reasons
"The worst thing we can do with these songs is not to sing them"
Amen to that - I believe Martin sings many songs people have described as "unsuitable long ballads" - many of them are "rustic sepia" according to our ageist friend
People need to read what Martin has written on the songss you people are happily stamping out of existance
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:23 AM

Al personal abuse proves is that you have run out of intelligent answers...

...Stll not found the balls to back up yours Dave


Both statements on the same post and copied without further comment :-)

I have no need to back anything up or justify my tastes to you, Jim. Nor do I have any need to stoop to insults.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:39 AM

Jim - I gave up arguing ages ago. You weren't paying any attention to the points I made.

Which part is abuse?
1) we are both well past our salad days -sadly
2)both inclined to go on long after its bloody obvious we do not agree
3) I for one, am anxious not to turn into King Lear - turned out from my kingdom walking the blasted heath cursing the cruel world.

And this is a very minority site - do you really think someones going to read what you have to say and think - well I will have no more to do with trad music if they're all bad tempered and intolerant?

I think this is most unlikely.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:49 AM

Calling someone an old guy is abuse, Al. Saying someone has no balls is perfectly acceptable. Funny old world init!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:06 PM

I think this thread has run it's course!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:07 PM

"aying someone has no balls is perfectly acceptable. Funny old world init!"
I could have said no courage if you prefer Dave - that's certainlyt what iI meant and, given your lack of response, is true
AAl's was a reference to ade,suggesting that those who grow old become incapable of thinking yet this "old guy" has run rings around you lot
None of you have an agreed definition, you haven't the b... whoops courage to dispute my comparison between your chosen songs and real folk songs
Of course you have no need to bsack up or justify anything Dave - you have no need to post to this argument, but as you do, unless you do your arguments are meaningless
Anybody can say what they want without justifying it - that's not discussion in my book

"You weren't paying any attention to the points I made."
I've responded to every single point made here - carefully and at length and, unlike you, have at no timed descended tp personal abuse, certainly not to the level you have
You don't want response - you want unconditional surrender without offering anything of your own
You are the ones who are basing your arguments on personal taste, with more than a little self interest thrown in
You call your music "folk" yet despise real folk music as "rural sepia"   
People don't need to read this sight to know what I say and think - my ideas are far too well documented for anybody to have to talk my word for anything
You really should be ashamed of yourself or at the very least apologise for your disgusting display of ageist intolerance
jIm


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:32 PM

So, saying someone is an old guy, when that is true, is an insult. But saying someone has no courage, when that is not true, is acceptable? Still a funny old world.

I have no need to justify my opinions because they are just that. Opinions. I have formed them in the same way everyone else does and find the constant need of some to try and prove that their opinions are the correct ones tiresome and indicative of insecurity. But that is, of course, just my opinion :-)

I am at a loss as to what we are trying to achieve here, Jim. I am happy in my folk club world. You were not happy with it so you found another that you are happy with. We are both happy with our own lives. The tradition is safely in your hands and blooming in various folk clubs as mentioned by a myriad of people in here. New songs and new artists are encouraged. It is win/win. Just what are we arguing about?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:47 PM

Martin Carthy on "rustic sepia" fol songs

"I regard tradition as progressive," he says, "and a traditional song as a progressive force, because it is concerned with the continuity of things." The word "radical" is derived from "radix", a root, and this is Carthy's radicalism: "You come from somewhere, for Christ's sake – it's like holding a grandchild in your arms – and let me tell you, there is nothing in parenthood to prepare you for the feeling of grandparenthood. Good folk music is like me holding my grandchildren and wanting to know more about my great, great, great uncle – I've got a picture of him – Tom Carthy from Ballybunion, County Kerry. I see his fingers on the uilleann pipes, and I see my father's hands and my grandfather's hands. The continuity of folk music is similar, because it is also our continuity."
Carthy illustrates his point with the exactitude of the cultural genealogist he is: "There's a great storyteller called Hugh Lupton, who cited the words of a man called Duncan Williamson, who said that when he told a story, he felt behind him a long line of all the people who had told that story before. What we are doing singing folk songs is full of ghosts, and that is what is exciting".The term "nostalgia" is pointless in a conversation with Martin Carthy; the past is a propulsion, a well of riches, and folk songs are the history of its common people, the expressions of their struggles, tribulations and superstitions, their guile, humour, love, lust and violence – and their "subversion", often in its subtlest form."
MORE HERE

I don't by any means, like everything Martin does with folk song, but his love for what some people here despise and denigrate and a lot believe is outdated and irrelevant is both profound and deeply moving
Mind you Dave "that's only his opinion"
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM

"when that is not true, "
#Did I miss your responding to my cpmparisong, ot mistake your saying you didn't have to Dave ?
You have chosen to play a major part in these discussions, for which, I have benn extremely grateful
You have demanded I respond to you and derided me ufairly bty claiming I haven't (when I most certainly have)
When I make the same demands on you, you refuse and cry foul
Sorry - that's how it is
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 01:07 PM

>>>>>>'what some people here despise and denigrate and a lot believe is outdated and irrelevant'<<<<<

I've been following the thread since it started and If there is any of this at all, I must have missed it.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 01:23 PM

You have demanded I respond to you and derided me ufairly

I have not demanded anything nor derided anyone, Jim. You have made these false claims before and I can safely predict that you you will come up with no examples of my having done so.

Courage is not a thing to be tested on an internet forum in the comfort of your own armchair. It is on the ground, face to face with your fears. You have no idea of my level of courage so why question it?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 01:26 PM

I've just quoted two examples Steve - there have been others - on this and the other two threads
As far as I'm concerned patronising lip service may not be despising but it certainly is belittling (denigrating)
Outdated and irrelevant has become par for the course - can't remember who said "we must move on" or "things change", but i boils down to the same thing
The fact that people refuse to acknowledge the damage the deliberate misuse of the term folk has done speaks volumes
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 01:58 PM

Al - I wouldn't want to see Nick Drake's stuff banished into outer darkness and I agree he was an amazing guitarist.

I'm surprised you were converted by that biography. My reaction to it was, how many biographies of suicidal depressives does the world need? It was in the same category as Diana Athill's "After a Funeral", on Waguih Ghali - ok, I'd already read Ghali's book (every bit as bleak and hopeless as Athill's deacription of his life would lead you to expect) so I couldn't be put off. But there are a lot more books in that genre and none of them really got me fired up to check the subject's work out. (ok, I will except Richard Holmes on Nerval in "Footsteps", which Is fiendishly ingenious).


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 01:58 PM

'this "old guy" has run rings around you lot'

more like ever decreasing circles.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 02:07 PM

Will , i encountred impudence at no other folk club but sharps in cecil sharp house , i was the booked guest and one of the residents thought it appropriate to join me on stage [unasked] because he too played the concertina, the problem was he had a different harmonic arrangement to me which clashed, lack of control by the organiser, i am afraid.FECKON CHEEK , AND FURTHERMORE THEY HAVE NOT HAD THE DECENCY TO APOLOGISE OR ASK ME BACK, WANKERS


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 02:10 PM

Re Steve Gardham's post above I was thinking the same.

You are very much deluded Jim if you think that not agreeing with your very narrow view means that people despise and denigrate the music.

I get the feeling that almost everybody here has a far more open mind than you.

No matter how much you blow your top over things not going your way it won't change a thing.

Get over it.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 02:57 PM

"If you think that not agreeing with your very narrow view means that people despise and denigrate the music.
"I'm given the quotes and have given my reasons for extending my opinion beyond them
It doesn't interest me one way or another who agrees with them - as you people have been saying from day one - there's no way of opening closed minds (or words to that effect)
I have seldom come across so may closed minds than I have here - I most certanly haven't "blown my top - I can't remember enjoying an argument as much as I am enjoying this one - it relly has exceeded all my expectations.
I leave that to those who resort to personal insulting and ageism

I got your message Dave - whatever way you care to phrase it, you have no intention of putting your money where your mouth is - can't say I'm not disappointed, but your prerogative, of course

"more like ever decreasing circles."
Have it your own way Al - I have you running in ever decreasing circles - same thing as far as I'm concerned

Nice to see Carthy's opinions are given the same cold shoulder as have mine, and he is far more articulate than I am
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 03:36 PM

I got your message Dave - whatever way you care to phrase it, you have no intention of putting your money where your mouth is - can't say I'm not disappointed, but your prerogative, of course

I have no idea what you are on about, Jim. Sorry, but I have not sent you any messages.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 03:52 PM

Apologies,

The above guest at 02.10 was me.

Perhaps instead of saying blow your top I should have said piss and whine.

It's clear that you just enjoy winding people up.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 03:54 PM

Well I don't know if you're capable of debating in a tolerant manner, doesn't seem much evidence.

rural sepia seems to have struck home.

possibly cos its bloody accurate. you seem to think folksong is prerogative of the old and the travellers, and other isolated communities.

I believe folksong is a natural function of humanity and occurs everywhere. Every community all over the world expresses itsel informally in song.

Folksong with no reference to living [eople only mythic versions of humanity is a nonsense - an absurdity.

If you spread your bet a little wider you would understand the nature of folksong better.
When Wizz Jones was asked to make a film about his life, he chose Martin Carthy to lead the question and answer section and the narration. There is immense respect between this singer of mainly traditional music and this singer of contemporary songs. Carthy has always named Big Bill Broonzy as his main influence as a guitarist.

Your angle seems to be that you are far too knowledgeable to have respect for anyone. Respect seems like an alien concept.

Finally - the reason we have no definition for our music is that it is open ended. Someone will write a whole new chapter tomorrow. And I will not be the one dismissing what another artist is trying to do. I am not so insecure.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:26 PM

Just noticed this too, Jim.

It doesn't interest me one way or another who agrees with them

Yet you say that I should justify my opinions. Do you not think that if it does not interest you whether people agree with you or not, the same should apply to other people?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:49 AM

"Well I don't know if you're capable of debating in a tolerant manner,"
Said the feller who believes that to be old is to be senile
"rural sepia seems to have struck home"
Yup - a perfect phrase for those who hate folk song
Thanks for confirming that fact at long last Al - the dislike that dares not speak its name (here at least)
Folksong teems with life, it is populated by real people in real situations - it is the history of real people, kept alive by them for centuries and probably made by them in the first place (despite attempts by people who prefer Victorian tear-jerkers, to take that honour from them)
That's why none of you who have shown your dislike of folksong will attempt to respond to my comparison to your lifeless and disposable pap
As the (ignored by you people) Martin Carthy sums it up:
"I regard tradition as progressive, and a traditional song as a progressive force, because it is concerned with the continuity of things."

"Your angle seems to be that you are far too knowledgeable to have respect for anyone"
I've taken my arguments from a century of research by others and thirty odd years of personal research - from singing, listening and organising clubs
If I know anything, its from having read and listened to others
Unlike you, I have not resorted to insulting people (in your case Al, an entire generation)

"It doesn't interest me one way or another who agrees with them"
I've listened to your arguments carefully and (far more telling) you refusals to argue and respond - I have responded to themm all in detail
I didn't come here expecting to change minds - I'd be more successful trying to rob The Bank of England -
I came here to listen to what others have to say and, if I disagreed, I have said so - how could I not respond to people who dislike or only pay lip-service to a genre of song I have devoted my life to ?
Your arguments are insubstantial, incomplete and often personal nd unpleasant -
You haven't respond to points head on - you haven't even the good sense to respond to Martin Carthy's declaration of love for "sepia" folk song, though you all rush to pay lip service to him too
You really haven't done to well out of any of this

I am grateful for Al's refreshing honesty - if more people had admitted they didn't actually like or respect the music whose banner they march under it would have saved so much time and unpleasantness
Off now to share some of our Irish recordings with an American who cherishes our music far more than any do here
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:18 AM

Jim, it was you that said "It doesn't interest me one way or another who agrees with them". 21 Mar 19 - 02:57 PM. I know you have attributed things others have said to me before but this is the first time you have argued against something you have said yourself!

Where has all this dislike of folk music business come from as well? As far as I can see no one has said they dislike anything. Apart from you. Do you seriously believe that if someone likes contemporary music, they cannot like traditional music as well?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:34 AM

No Dave - I never expected to change closed minds, certainly not on this forum of very tightly shut ones
There's a big world outside of Mudcat far more recipient to the real thing
All anybody can hope ever to do is to say what they honestly believe, which I have done here, in detail and at length - more than can be said o the rest of you
Please stop trying to score non-existent points - it's embarrassing   
I have never knowingly attributed anything to you that you have not said
You asked me over and over again to respond to points I already had
When I asked you to do the same you refused point blank and you have continued to do so - a sort of bitter victory that I am far from happy with
Let's finish this before it gets nastier than some people have already made it
Now - where did I put my wheelchair - can't remember anything nowadays !!!!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:37 AM

I'm not marching under any banners just attempting to live a decent creative life, with a measure of civility, a degree of professionalism and some regard and respect for the people that pay me the courtesy of listening to me.

I'm sorry that you're so far out of whack with society that you don't understand or empathise with English folk clubs any more.

By and large, the folk crowd are good eggs. They give most people a fair listen - although I confess some of your favourite artists, well I've been listening to and playing folk music for well over fifty years. I can see they might fit into an archive in Cecil Sharp house more comfortably than a guest spot in a folk club.

I'm not sure if this incessant truculence, fault finding and nit picking is supposed to reassure yourself that dementia is at bay. However I was watching O'Casey's The Plough and The Stars on TCM this week. And there was Fluther, the fighting drunk putting his fists up to everyone....

I thought, who does that remind me of now?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:59 AM

I am not trying to score anything, Jim, but when things get a bit muddled, I do try to clarify. You posted the line "It doesn't interest me one way or another who agrees with them" on 21 Mar 19 - 02:57 PM. Then a short time later suggested it was me. Simple as that.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:00 AM

' I have not resorted to insulting people' - so don't feel insulted No Balls Dave who delights in lifeless disposable pap.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:05 AM

I don't, Al. I am sure the scores of dedicated folk club organisers who put their heart and soul into their clubs don't feel insulted when they are told that they are damaging folk music or promoting mindless pap either :-)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:03 AM

Jim -
I leave that to those who resort to personal insulting
Could I remind everyone that this was posted by the only person to have a posting removed from this thread because it was a blatant insult.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:15 AM

"Could I remind everyone that this was posted by the only person"
As I haven no idea what the posting was, whether I was to responsible for it why it was removed, I am not even prepared to discuss an undefined accusatuion such as this
Could I remind you of your silent acquiescence of a statement that writes off the music we are discussion as "unsuitable long ballads" and "sepia rural"
For all the lip-service and declared respect from singers, club organisers and researchers, there has not been a sigle outtcry of opposition to this blanket condemnation of folk song - not from you, not from anyone - even when it has just been repeated - a deafening silence from all
We protest about only the things we care about, it seems
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,DtG sans biscuit
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM

I'd say it's much more likely to be because everyone but you sees the UK folk scene in a much more positive light, Jim. Do you never wonder why you seem to be out of step with everyone else In this?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 07:06 AM

"UK folk scene in a much more positive light, Jim. "
There you go again
Bet this one is met with acquiescent silence too
Keep 'em comin'
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM

As I haven no idea what the posting was, whether I was to responsible for it why it was removed, I am not even prepared to discuss an undefined accusatuion such as this

Search your memory, Jim. Just try and remember who you insulted and why you did it. If you cannot even remember it, then the situation is even worse than I feared. Perhaps you could email Joe Offer and ask him to remind you who it was you insulted and what the insult was, because I remember the insult and the victim. I also remember insults in previous threads against myself and against Bryan Creer (both also removed by the moderators.) Perhaps you can ask for reminders of those at the same time.

Could I remind you of your silent acquiescence of a statement that writes off the music we are discussion (??) as "unsuitable long ballads" and "sepia rural"

Please help me with the meaning of this? I don't mean just the grammatical error; I am after the intention of what you call my 'silent acquiescence'. Does this mean that if I do not approve of all your statements, I am somehow in the wrong? I reserve the right to respond or not respond as I see fit.

We protest about only the things we care about, it seems

I think my continuing record of sixty years involvement in folk music, song, dance, stories and drama speaks for itself so I regard it as self-evident that I care about the tradition.
Even more than this, though, I care about the respect that all individuals have the right to expect from others, that they can post an opinion on a message board without having a response which is demeaning or deprecating or insulting or defamation of character and in my opinion you have been guilty of all four at various times on Mudcat. You have strong opinions, most of which I agree with but some I cannot go along with. What I cannot go along with is you blatant intolerance of the opinions of others.
Then there is your hypocritical attitude towards this. You write opposing insults and when it is pointed out to you that you are a known perpetrator, you conveniently forget and ask to be reminded.


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