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UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 19 - 06:28 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 19 - 08:16 AM
Vic Smith 17 Feb 19 - 08:24 AM
GUEST,Kenny B 17 Feb 19 - 08:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 19 - 08:27 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Kenny B 17 Feb 19 - 09:18 AM
The Sandman 17 Feb 19 - 09:36 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 17 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 19 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Hootennanny 17 Feb 19 - 10:51 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 19 - 11:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 19 - 12:47 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 19 - 12:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 19 - 01:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 19 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 19 - 01:32 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 19 - 01:36 PM
The Sandman 17 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM
The Sandman 17 Feb 19 - 04:26 PM
The Sandman 17 Feb 19 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 17 Feb 19 - 06:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Feb 19 - 03:07 AM
The Sandman 18 Feb 19 - 03:35 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 19 - 04:09 AM
Jack Campin 18 Feb 19 - 04:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 19 - 05:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Feb 19 - 05:11 AM
Howard Jones 18 Feb 19 - 05:17 AM
The Sandman 18 Feb 19 - 05:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM
GUEST 18 Feb 19 - 05:52 AM
GUEST 18 Feb 19 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 18 Feb 19 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 19 - 06:16 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM
The Sandman 18 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Feb 19 - 11:14 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 19 - 01:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Feb 19 - 02:41 PM
The Sandman 18 Feb 19 - 02:45 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 19 - 03:05 PM
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:28 AM

Remind us, Jim. What specific claims?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM

Oh come on Dave - plenty of them
Why are pop songs valid as consideration for consideration as folk songs will do for a start ?
Why should badly performed pop songs or Victoria tear-jerkers or early pop songs attract young people to folk music ?
What is it intolerant to expect to hear folk songs at a folk club

You might try explaining how you would describe a folksong to a newbie - I asj=ked this ages ago
Your starter for ten
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM

Why are pop songs valid? Many pop songs are now over 50 years old and have been assimilated into a particular folk community. They have become songs belonging to the folk of that community. In addition, many pop and other songs tell a story in the same style as folk music. They are no different to the songs written by, for instance, Ewan MacColl.

Why should badly performed etc. songs attract young people? They dont. I have never made such a claim.

Why is it intolerant etc? It isn't. I expect to hear folk songs at folk clubs. I have never been disappointed.

How would I explain a folk song to a newbie? I would say it is a song of a certain type of meter that, often, tells a story. I would go on to give examples from sources as diverse as the Copper family and Ralph McTell then come bang up to date with Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne and Granny's Attic to demonstrate that it is a living and evolving tradition.

I have made most of these points before but because you disagree, I suspect you have ignored them.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:16 AM

"Many pop songs are now over 50 years old and have been assimilated into a particular folk community."
The folk singing tradition has been more or less moribund since th beginning of the 20th century
How on earth have fifty year old songs been absorbed into a process that is dead as a Norwegian parrot
Age has sfa to to with folk song creation - repetition is not absorptopn

"I have never made such a claim."
Others have, fairly common in modern folk clubs
"Intolerance"
The very term 'folk police" exudes accusations of intolerance - wanna guess how many times it is used

Your description doesn't even begin to define folk song - especially as Ralph McTell doesn't even sing folk songs
Streets of London comes with a little (c) which makes it the property of Ralph McTell so it can never belong to the folk; their songs are in the public domain
No cigar Dave
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:24 AM

Beyond all logic to me
... and to me! How someone thinks that improvement can be brought by persistant repetitive and badly-researched negativity is beyond me. The two central administrative bodies of the countries whose music he is involved with are both awful; they are beyond redemption so much so that he won't work with them. He pours scorn on them.
My attitude could not be more different. I recognise faults and shortcomings but think that by taking small steps and concentrating on the positives, I feel that improvements can be made.
It reminds me of my professional career of 40 years in education, the last 30 at senior manager, head teacher and advisory level. Two of the schools that I arrived at were in a pitiful state, but by becoming involved with a strong team at senior level and by taking worrying issues one at a time, improvements were made and a culture of "We are getting better" developed and staff and pupils thought better of their establishment. In the term after I retired, there was yet another Ofsted inspection and my last school became the first special school to be given "outstanding" status. Well, perhaps the fact that I was no longer there helped but anyone who has been involved will know that this is the result of hard consistent graft.
One of the questions I always asked when I was interviewing for new staff was what the interviewee did outside their working hours, What I wanted to hear was about something that they were totally involved in. something that took them out of themselves, that fulfilled the role that folk music has done for me.
Tina and I completed 50 years of running weekly folk clubs together in 2014 and we both brought the same attitudes to this. If, for example, a singer came along and wanted to read a song to our audience, I would praise them for coming, praise what they had done but say how much better they would communicate with the audience if they had learned and absorbed their song and this was what we were used to and expected. They either did not come again or they took the bother to learn their song, but being a source of encouragement was always at the centre. One of the reasons that I stopped running a club was because of the increase in sessions of song or tune or both were increasing in frequency and standard - both Jim Bainbridge and myself have detailed this earlier in this thread. The folk scene was growing to maturity and folk clubs were no longer the important prop that the scene needed.

Now, I am afraid to say that as much as I am enjoying this futile, stuck discussion which does not seem to have made much progress in, what I see, is now over 200 posts, I have to go and pack my cases to fly out to West Africa where for a lot of the time, I will beyond the reach of electricity never mind the internet. I will be taking lots of batteries so that I can again record Manding jalis singing and playing their koras and balafons and others, I hope, will be new to me. A traditional jali will come from a family of heriditary musicians. He is a traditional singer and musician, but unless he creates within the strict structures of their traditions. If he is not giving a moral commentary of society as he or she sees it; if he is not composing praise songs for those making major contributions or events in their society then he won't be listened to. I expect I will be hearing songs of the people who have built the recently opened new road bridge over the River Gambia that will bring great economic benefit to towns like Soma or Farafeni at either end of it.
What I won't hear is complaints and negativity.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Kenny B
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:24 AM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM

Oh come on Dave - plenty of them
Why are pop songs valid as consideration for consideration as folk songs will do for a start ?
Why should badly performed pop songs or Victoria tear-jerkers or early pop songs attract young people to folk music ?
What is it intolerant to expect to hear folk songs at a folk club

You might try explaining how you would describe a folksong to a newbie - I asj=ked this ages ago
Your starter for ten
Jim

This is a thread about the UK60s Folk Club Boom
If I was Dave i wouldn't reply to this thread drift by asking the poster to start 3 individual threads on the topics where he can debate each suggestion in turn without thread drift


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:27 AM

Like I said, Jim. Just because you disagree does not make it untrue. You asked the questions. You have my answers. I cannot answer for things others have said.

MacTell's songs are as much contemporary folk as MacColl's are. There are plenty more of his songs other than Streets of London. You asked for a definition of folk music. Not traditional music.

No cigar? I wasn't aware it was a competition in which prizes are won. Are you sole judge and jury in this arcade game? I think not.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM

Bit of a cop-out Kenny
This 'thread drift' has been a natural part of the discussion from the beginning
"Too late, too late", the maiden cried
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Kenny B
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:18 AM

"Too late, too late", the maiden cried"

well done but you should have quoted the whole verse, much more appropriate to the proceedings


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:36 AM

better late than never as the actress said to the folk singer


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM

I know several versions Kenny - most of them obscene
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM

Jim
Re your post at 6.18.

Are you telling us that copyright of a song lasts for ever?

If so that must be a recent change.

Ralph McTell was trying to make a living as a singer / songwriter. Why shouldn't he copyright his product?

I have seen material written by Mr MacColl that has been copyrighted and I have seen traditional material with words and music arranged by Ewan MacColl.

Surely singers and songwriters shouldn't give away the fruits of their labour any more than electricians would.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM

"Are you telling us that copyright of a song lasts for ever?"
How long ago did McTell write Streets of London - not Forever ago, surely
It was a reference to mentioned singer
Copyright is not really an issue - only an indication of the unclaimability of modern songs
One of the issues it does raise is how claiming modern written songs to be 'folk' has opener the door to the public performance jackals demanding payment from folk clubs"Why shouldn't he copyright his product?"
Who said he shouldn't - not me ?
I just said that it can't belong to him and to 'the folk'
I have no idea if Ewan continued to copyright traditions arrangements - I know some of his agents did at one time but we both know the disputes he had with them at one time or another
At no time did he ever claim his own songs were 'folk' - he ever refused to call his clubs 'Folk Clubs'
The only bust-up Ewan ever had with Luke Kelly is when the Dubliners began copyrighting folk songs
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM

I have answered 4 questions from you, Jim. Will you answer just one from me. If you went to a folk club and were treated to an evening of songs written by, for instance, Ewan MacColl, Vin Garbutt and Cyril Tawney, would you complain?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:39 AM

Should have said, there is no right or wrong answer to this. No cigar to win. Not a trick question. Just bear in mind all the songs you will hear have a little "c" after their titles.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootennanny
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:51 AM

You stated that McTell's song could never be a folksong because he had copyrighted it. That is your personal belief.

Re the "Jackals" that you mention. Admittedly I don't attend Folk clubs that often these days but I have never yet seen anybody completing a PRS form and never been asked to complete one myself.

As an aside I should point out that when I worked for one of the "jackals" organisations I was able to make possible royalty payments to a traditional singer on behalf of their work and that of a parent. Not a fortune but an amount that was very much appreciated. They had never registered.

I don't defend the middlemen in collection of royalties but is there better practical way?

With regard to Ewan and disputes with "some of his agents". We do NOT both know, or at least I don't.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:19 AM

"That is your personal belief."
Not really Hoot, unless you think we stall have a living tradition
While the copyright exists it will still be the property of the holder
If children parody it and make their own versions, their creations may become folk songs possibly
But beyond that....
None of this is "my personal belief" - - that's what folk song is
It may be your "personal belief" that the song is a folk song, but you are going to have to argue for it
Feel free
You know as well as I do that royalties paid to 'folk'writers are pittances unless the industry can make something out of it first

As far as agents are concerned - NONE SO DEAF.... ...
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:47 PM

So, Jim, would you complain about the situation I described? I did answer your questions straight off...


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:56 PM

Sorry
I missed you post
I would enjoy such an evening but I don't think that's what the scene needs at present
Once you lose your roots you've lost the flower - these are all offshoots rather than the actual plant

Actually you didn't answer my points - or if you did, you ignored everything I said
I don't regard MacColl's songs as folk - neither did he - your constantly referring to them as such not only goes against my analysis, it goes against the composers
You have yet to give a defiition of folk song - what you gave was a personal stab at what one sounded like - not the same thing
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:03 PM

I have answered every single one of your points, Jim. That I have not answered them to your satisfaction is not my issue. Sorry.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:19 PM

It seems then that you are quite happy with some copyrighted material but not all. So your definition of what copyrighted material is acceptable at folk clubs is based on your own personal tastes. That is entirely subjective I'm afraid.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:32 PM

"It seems then that you are quite happy with some copyrighted material but not all. "
How do you make that out Dave ?
Copyright doesn't come into what goes on in the clubs, just what constitutes a folk song
You really are not ansering my points

I have no problem with using the tradition to make folk songs - They won't become folk songs until they are absorbed into an oral tradition and become the property of 'the folk' but that doesn't stop them being sung at folk clubs
As far as I am concerned, using the tradition to make new songs is essential - a continuance of the tradition, if not part of it


Excuses are not answers - one more time - how do you define a folk song
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:36 PM

Of to spend an evening watching crap on tele ("how dare you call, 'Call the Midwife' crap sir?")
Feckin' exhausted after three days of superb concertina music
Sleep well girls
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM

Ihad a great night lst night,in the best pub in ballydehob ina dalys still run by an old woiman six of us singning the old songs and now listening tmargaret barry amnd other trad music on lyric in an interview of myles o reilly, bury me in rural ireland when its my time


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:26 PM

thanks howard dear denis rookard , he was alovely man


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:27 PM

jkd john durrant


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:38 PM

Jim,
I did not say that McTell's song was a folk song. It is a song written by a singer. The songs that you prefer were "written" by somebody at sometime and you are happy to call them folk. If McTell's song shows up at some considerable time in the future what differentiates it? Oh I know he wasn't a downtrodden horny handed son of the soil.

Personally I can't stand the song but I did admire Ralph's guitar playing elsewhere.

I don't know any "Folk" writers, I thought they were all dead. Could you name any of the ones that you refer to who have been paid pittance.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 03:07 AM

I answered all your questions, Jim. 17 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM Not my problem if you didn't like the answers.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 03:35 AM

could this be check mate?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM

" 17 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM Not my problem if you didn't like the answers."
That was a rough description Dave - no a definition
As far as I am concerned the definition of a folk song lies in the two inseperable terms Folk and Traditional
"Tradition" is the largely oral process that first led to the making, remaking and changing of the songs whose origins are virtually untraceable and unattributable
"Folk" was a term applied to the people who almost certainly made and used the songs down the ages to express aspects of their lives and experiences   

The structure of folk songs reflect their characteristics and their probable origins unlike most pop songs, the personnel tend have names, identities, occupations and description
They are farm-workers, soldiers, sailors, weavers..... labourers...real people with real lives and real problems - they are two-dimensional rather than the flat, lifeless stereotypes created by the music industry - or the broadside presses, for that matter
The songs indicate a working knowledge of the backgrounds of the characters, tools, trade terms, customs lore, and their experiences are universal rather the introspective, which is why they survived as long as they have and, in my opinion, are still relevant - they express experiences that we can all relate to, to some degree
They often contain information that would otherwise have been lost or forgotten, which is what makes researching them so enjoyable and fulfilling
Nowhere can you find the depth of information on the experiences of 'ordinary' people that you can in the folk songs - it was hardly considered important enough to record
That's my take on what folk songs are and why they are important - now tell me how yours measures up
As I have said - folk song is defined clearly in the two words "folk" and "tradition"
If it didn't belong to the folk and hasn't passed through a traditional process it ain't a folk songs
This doesn't mean we can't still go on making songs and enjoying singing them at folk clubs - must sing you 'Hippies and the Beatniks' (Miles Wooton?) or Doneill Kennedy's 'O'Reilly and the Big McNeill' sometime - or any other of the near 100 I can still remember
As long as they fit into a folk song evening they are an essential additive - but that's what they are - additions

Hoot - I call what I believe to be folk songs "folk" - that doesn't include MacColl's (of which I still sing about a couple of dozen) or Cyril Tawney's or Enoch Kent's... or all the others who composed using folk styles
"Folk song" is a genre far too well researched and documented not to be understandable
As far as I'm concerned, those who don't know what it is don't want to know what it is - "the answer lies out there" as they used to say in 'The X Files'
JIm


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:09 AM

"could this be check mate?"
Or 'Fools Mate" maybe :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:44 AM

Re Jim's insistence on the social/historical concreteness of folk sing lyrics.

Look at the type specimen of English folk song, the one that started it all:

Seeds of Love

The gardener is a bit part in the symbolism, nobody else in it has an occupation and nobody has a name.

Lady Gaga has songs with more real-world narrative.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

Your exact question, Jim

You might try explaining how you would describe a folksong to a newbie

And I did.

No mention of tradition. As far as I am concerned folksong encompasses both traditional and contemporary. Many others agree. Perhaps the contention is that your definition of folk music only encompasses traditional song. If so, fair enough, we can agree to disagree.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:09 AM

Full of recorded folk symbolism Jack - try Thisslson Dyer's 'Plant lore'
If you dig out his Folklore of Shakespeare you'll find some of the lore was current then
Poets from Shakespeare to Burns used the same symbolism - condemn 'The Seeds of Love' (which, I have little doubt, Steve Gardham will claim origniated on the broadsides) and you condemn all poetry throughout history - or maybe you believe that they were inferior to the facile outpourings of Lady Gaga !!
Even if you were right, you can always find example unrepresentative of the main body - who would compare the lyrics of Tutti Frutti to Lennon and McCartney compositions - certainly not me
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:11 AM

...And I think it more likely to be stalemate:-)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:17 AM

Jim says, "As far as I am concerned the definition of a folk song lies in the two inseperable terms Folk and Traditional". The problem here is that, as we have discussed many times, these terms have come become separated. "Folk" has come to mean much more than "traditional". Much as you may deplore it, it cannot be denied or avoided.

In the context of what you might expect to hear in a folk club, this has always been far wider than traditional music. My experience of clubs began at the very end of the 60s, but my experience during the 70s and 80s was that as well as traditional songs you could expect to hear music hall, poetry, comedy, singer-songwriters in both contemporary and traditional styles, and much more. And yes, even "pop", particularly in the sense of Donovan, Simon and Garfunkel and of course Dylan.

We have also gone over many times how to define "folk" in this broader sense, and all I can say is that it is easier to recognise than define. Tt comes down to what would be tolerated in a folk club, but that would depend on the tastes and policies of individual clubs' organisers and preferences of their audiences. Fortunately in those days there were so many clubs that it was usually possible to find at least one whose musical tastes matched your own.

As clubs, and club audiences, have become fewer they have had to broaden their musical policy. We have also seen the rise of the "open-mic", which imitate the folk-club format with no limitations on genre. Perhaps some of these describe themselves, incorrectly, as folk clubs, perhaps some folk clubs have evolved into these in order to survive.

My experience of clubs these days is far more limited and infrequent, but I seem to have had a better experience than Jim in that I still hear mainly traditional songs performed. I think he may have been unlucky in his recent experience of folk clubs if this was not the case for him.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:28 AM

jim answer this one you accepth the 1954 definition?
you agree you said this?Hoot - I call what I believe to be folk songs "folk" - that doesn't include MacColl's (of which I still sing about a couple of dozen) or Cyril Tawney's or Enoch Kent's... or all the others who composed using folk styles.
check mate, fields of athenry a composed song using a folk style is sung by football crowds, so according to the 1954 defintion it is a folk song CHECKMATE


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM

Facile. Lacking depth or complexity.

Are you really saying that popular songs have no depth or complexity while folk songs do, Jim?

I think we can find both facile and complex in both camps.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:52 AM

"Does anybody out there have an idea of how many folk music clubs existed in the UK at the height of the 60s folk music boom?"
So that will be a "no", then.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:55 AM

this is Mudcat. Whatever the title of the thread it is just the same people having the same arguement.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:55 AM

Jim,

Must admit that I hadn't clicked on to your link "None so Deaf". I just did.
What was this meant to illustrate? Just how good Ewan was at attempting a Scottish accent? just how good a songwriter he was? I am puzzled.

Was this written before or after the problems with agents which you incorrectly claimed that you and I both know about?

You mention MacColl, Kent and Tawney, I assume that this is in reply to my asking you the names of writers who get paid a pittance in royalties. Could the reason be that Folk and "Folk" song/music is a minority sport and therefore earns little in royalties.
I can't believe that Ewan was only paid a pittance for his most well known composition.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:16 AM

"What was this meant to illustrate? Just how good Ewan was at attempting a Scottish accent? "£
Ewan grew up with a Scottish/Salford acccent as did many Irish children I knew in Liverpool and London - his mother told me that and when I stayed with then for a time conversations between mother and son were virtually impenetrable
Pat always knows when I am talking to my sisters on the phone because I lapse into the Livrpoolese I grew up with unconsciously   
He adapted his natural accent to hi love of Scots songs as an actor does in order to gain popularity for them - particularly the ballads
Does a teacher or a computer programmer sing in the language of his songs
Lat's face it - is a Glaswegian singing an Aberdeenshire ballad not adapting his or her natural way of speaking to sing the ballad?
I got my lifelong love of the ballads by hearing Ewan singing and prozletising for which I will be eternally grateful so any snideswipes any his accent tend tot be water off a duck's back   
The song was, as far as I'm concerned, a healthy satire on an iffy attitude to folk song by a shark
Believe what you want about Ewan and Paggy's royalties - Peggy is still with us so you could always ask her

"Are you really saying that popular songs have no depth or complexity while folk songs do, Jim?"
absolutely Dave - that's why they come with a sell-by date and are replaced as often as they are - just like chewing gum
There may be a few exceptions of course but in the main, they contain nothing and are replaced because it is profitable to do so
Many of them are having a second life in being used to sell everything from toothpaste to sanitary towels

Howard, my experience was very much not yours but the points you make are important ones so, rather than knock of a quick response I would much rather think about what you wrote and reply later
Up to my arse in Irish Child Ballads at the moment
Thanks
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM

"Whatever the title of the thread it is just the same people having the same argument."
Nobody is stopping you joining in - the more, the merrier, as far as I'm concerned
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM

if one want to hear good scottish singing accents ,one would find more accuracy listening to dick gaughan jeanie robertson alex campbell andy stewart[scottish soldier,wheres your trousers]


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM

You probably wouldn't understand a good Scottish accent Dick or, if you are lucky enough to be able to, there are plenty who can't
I couldn't understand many of the Scots singing accents when I first heard them and my dad was born in Glasgow
I remember hearing Matt McGinn playing the gatekeeper in MacBeth at The Edinburgh Festival - couldn't understand a bloody word - he needed subtitles
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 11:14 AM

Well, sorry Jim, but there are more than a few exceptions to trite lyrics in popular song just as there are more than a few exceptions to complex lyrics in folk music. I'm not going to get into an examples war but just ask you to contemplate how many fol-de-rolls and buttercups and daisies crop up in traditional music :-)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 01:34 PM

" how many fol-de-rolls and buttercups and daisies crop up in traditional music :-)"
Only in Sharp's and Baring Gould's re-writes for schools Dave
Try finding them in field recordings
Still no definition then ?
There is much more n what I said about folk song - surely you're not going to ignore that !
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 02:41 PM

A) You did not ask for a definition
B) You did say "You might try explaining how you would describe a folksong to a newbie"
C) I answered that 17 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM
D) I have already said, at least three times, that just because you do not like my answer does not make it less valid
E) How many times do you want to go round this loop?

One more time now...


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 02:45 PM

Jim you are ptronising, why would i not understand a good scottish accent , i have played many times in scotland, have many scottish friends and even had scottish girlfriends[ there was no misunderstandings in the scratcher].


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 03:05 PM

"Jim you are ptronising, why would i not understand a good Scottish accent ,"
Most people I know hve problems with a good Scottish accent Dick - nothing patronising about that
Brits are notoriously bad with both accents and languages

Dave
I asked for a definition - your highly vague description doesn't even count as a good description
I have just given the definition I believe to be the valid one - what's yours
Where does "tradition" and "the Folk" come into your description
I've also gone to great length to describe aspects os folk song to b unique - and answer, came there none
Try again
18 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM
Until you either start responding to what I wrote or come up with an alternative this game of musical chairs will continue
I really don';t mind being the opportunity to sound off - can't see what you're getting out of it
I intend to deal with Howard's posting tomorrow
'The Irish Revolution (magnificent TV series) calls
Jim


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