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UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

The Sandman 18 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Feb 19 - 03:21 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 19 - 04:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Feb 19 - 04:27 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 19 - 04:27 AM
The Sandman 19 Feb 19 - 04:51 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 19 Feb 19 - 05:23 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 19 Feb 19 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM
The Sandman 19 Feb 19 - 06:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Feb 19 - 06:18 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 19 - 06:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Feb 19 - 07:03 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 19 Feb 19 - 07:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM
Stanron 19 Feb 19 - 07:29 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 19 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 19 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Feb 19 - 09:39 AM
Stanron 19 Feb 19 - 10:06 AM
GUEST 19 Feb 19 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 19 - 11:27 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 19 - 11:33 AM
GUEST 20 Feb 19 - 06:49 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 19 - 07:01 AM
GUEST 20 Feb 19 - 01:30 PM
The Sandman 20 Feb 19 - 01:42 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 19 - 02:52 PM
The Sandman 20 Feb 19 - 04:45 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Feb 19 - 04:54 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 19 - 02:22 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 19 - 02:38 AM
Iains 21 Feb 19 - 04:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 19 - 04:41 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 19 - 04:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 19 - 06:02 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 19 - 06:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 19 - 06:55 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 19 - 07:33 AM
Howard Jones 21 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 19 - 07:55 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 19 - 08:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM
Iains 21 Feb 19 - 09:06 AM
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM

Jim i am english , i have no problem understanding scottish singers


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 03:21 AM

How many more times, Jim? Your exact words were "You might try explaining how you would describe a folksong to a newbie". It's up there for all to see. As is my response.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 04:00 AM

And I'm saying it is inaccurate and you need to define the term folk if you are going to show you have a case
You wouldn't open a greengrocer's shop if you didn't know what the term meant - why should opening a folk club be any different ?
THe constant misuse of the term (often deliberately) has, in my opinion, not only all but destroyed the club scene, but it has put at risk one of the most important art forms we have
The behaviour of the New Age Researchers seems to have signed the demolition order
Folk song can have no future (other than being hidden away in cupboards until future generations with more sense that the present one) find the key treat it seriously
It has been a source of enjoyment and inspiration for most of my lifetime - now I read about lovers of folk song feeling uncomfortable singing unaccompanied songs or "inappropriate long ballads" at a folk club
You have Rod Stradling's experience and, as far as I can see, there is hardly anybody doing serious work in the U.K. distributing real folk song material that his magazine is
Your description is meaningless in terms of the subject - as much as I enjoy discoursing with you, we rally are going in circles and, unless you respond to my points, will continue to do so
I've responded to every point (and even the abuse) that has been aimed at me - it's somebody else's turn now
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 04:27 AM

But I'm not going to open a folk club. My point is that I have responded to your request to describe folk song to a newbie. It is there for you and everyone else to see yet you keep saying I have not responded. The fact that you dislike and disagree with my description is irrelevant.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 04:27 AM

By the way Dave
"A) You did not ask for a definition"
I asked for a definition way-way back - you said you didn't have one
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 04:51 AM

rod stradlings experience is based on one visit to a folk club in 15 years


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 05:23 AM

My turn....
1      only some kind of eejit would even try to define 'folk'!- as I've said before, it's a subjective judgment & it doesn't really matter anyway- my view is as valid as Jim Carroll's if a little less abrasive!

2 There's no such thing as a Scottish accent any more than there is an Irish or English one- it's total nonsense--- I'm a Geordie- do I have an English accent?


3 I'm not a frequent purchaser of Rod's excellent material on MT, but what he's done over the years is a huge contribution to the archive of less commercial music of the people & his attendance or non-attendance at folk clubs is irrelevant.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 05:55 AM

The question should be not how "folk" should be defined, but what sort of music one can expect to hear at something describing itself as a "folk club". For at least 50 years (from my own personal experience) this has always been considerably wider than only traditional music. The meaning of the term has also widened from when it was originally coined by the early researchers into folklore and folk music - this may be regrettable, but how language evolves is out of anyone's control. "Folk" no longer means traditional music, although it of course includes it, and hasn't for decades.

The exact balance has always varied from club to club. Even back in the day there were clubs who specialised in the sort of "contemporary folk" which essentially means a singer-songwriter with a guitar - not my cup of tea, but fitting in with what the general public now understand by the term "folk". It would be unusual to hear a traditional song in those clubs, but in those days there was probably another club nearby with a different balance, so there was plenty for everyone.

I understand and sympathise with Jim's frustration at going to a "folk club" and not hearing a traditional song. Especially if what is being performed is stretching even the wider popular meaning of "folk", when it should probably be more accurately described as an "open-mic". However old habits die hard, and an open-mic event might imply an emphasis on popular music and actually put off someone wanting to perform traditional or even "folk" songs. At least these days many clubs have a website or Facebook page where you may be able to get some idea what to expect before you go.

Times have changed. Yes,there are far fewer folk clubs, and many of the old clubs are struggling and have had to adapt to survive, and this may not always be for the better. However there are still opportunities to hear and perform traditional songs. Plenty of young people are involved in the music, they are just doing it their own way (as our generation did) so there is no need to fear for the future of folk music, even if it may not resemble what we are familiar with (which would have been equally unfamiliar to previous generations).

Thanks to Rod Stradling, Topic, Veteran Records and others there are more opportunities than ever for people to listen to traditional singing and playing, and again young people are taking advantage of this, as well as listening to our generation who had the opportunity to hear it directly from traditional singers when they were alive.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

"   only some kind of eejit would even try to define 'folk'!"
It's been defined for over a century and a half - history is full of "eejits"
"There's no such thing as a Scottish accent "
Couldn't agree more - my point about Glaswegians singing Aberedeenshire Ballads
Rod probably can't sell his excellent productions of folk material because nobody seems either to know or care what folk song is

Next !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:05 AM

there are scottish accents, and IMO Ewans attempts were not very accurate, and peope do corractly refer to somebody having a scottish accent and yes your wearside accent is an english accent just as geordie is and cockney is.
the point is Ewan IMO failed to get any of the scottish acents accurately


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:18 AM

Ah, Ok, Jim. I sort of assumed that you were saying that you had asked for a definition on this thread. Not referring to ancient history. I have no recollection of that nor of what my response was. If you can point me in the right direction as to where and when this happened I will happily accept that your memory is correct. In the meanwhile, presuming that you want a definition, rather than a description to a newbie, how about...

Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.
The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.
The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.


:D


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

Great Dave - long time since I look at '54
How goes that fit in with your arguments ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:29 AM

Should have added - and then we can go onto all the points I made about what distinguishes folk song from all other forms
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:03 AM

What arguments shall I try to fit it into, Jim? Let me know what you believe I am arguing for or against and I will have a go.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:19 AM

[Seeds of Love]
Full of recorded folk symbolism Jack

So was Schoenberg's "Gurrelieder", or Stravinsky's "Les Noces", or the little songs to folk texts that Webern wrote in the 20s and 30s, or Harrison Birtwistle reusing Gawain. Using that symbolism does not make something a folk song in anybody's reckoning.

the facile outpourings of Lady Gaga !!

Try reading her stuff. She is prolific and very wide-ranging, and a lot of her songs are anything but facile. They don't really fit into any Anglophone folk model but they sometimes aren't so far from the expressive world of Italian folksong (and she is of Italian extraction).


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM

Not being obtuse btw, Jim. I just want to make sure I am not barking up the wrong tree.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:29 AM

'Folk Music' and 'The Tradition' are conceptual constructs of 'Western Art Music'. The terms described material that has survived outside the mainstream, sometimes for centuries. If you pare away all the intellectual encunberage, we are talking about 'old songs' and old tunes' and nothing else.

People like me who came across folk in the 60s got it from radio, TV and college and university. It made sense of the explosive changes we were seeing in popular music and took 'community' from the sole province of the church and out into our own informal experience. It got taken up by commercial music and by politics, in quite different ways.

At it's essence it is still 'old songs' and old tunes'. It has also been a vehicle for creative people to comment on current society and some of that will, almost inevitably, eventually attain the 'old songs' and old tunes' status.

As for the arguments, some people will argue about anything, even if no-one else is bothered. It doesn't change the fact that these are old songs and old tunes and I like them.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 09:12 AM

Stanron
A little more than that unless you disregard the likelihood of people making songs to record everyday events, experiences, emotions and aspirations
I can think of no other group of 'old songs and old tunes'
Songs created following the Irish famine and the period up to Irish independence represent a large body, if not the majority of the Irish folk song repertoire - they bristle with social history and aspirations
The tunes are incidental

"So was Schoenberg's "Gurrelieder", or Stravinsky's "Les Noces","
My point exactly - not imressed with Schoenberg particularly, but I wouldn't write off his or anybody's cmpositions as being insignificat to the human condition as you have "Seeds of Love"
In factJohn England's rendition is a latecomer on the scene; part of a line of versions stacked full of folk imagery - try 'THe Gairdener Child', the song at its best

I just want you to respond to the description I have given and, if you have no quibble with it, let me know how that fits in with what you expect from a folk club - I think you talked about "somewhere between MacColl and Buddy Holly
Not sure what you mean, especially as neither wrote folk songs and the latter was a million miles from doing so
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM

No Dick, my accent is Tyneside, not Wearside- South Shields, my hometown is at least 5 miles from Sunderland, with a seriously different accent- Sunderland is the nearest point on Wearside- I might be a mackem in supporting Sunderland FC but I don't talk about it.....


I don't agree there is such a thing as a Scottish accent- it's just as daft as referring to an English accent!! Or an Irish one, nor that matter- you should know that- I certainly do after living in West Cork, Leitrim & Fermanagh!!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 09:39 AM

I have no quibble with your description other than you seem to be talking about traditional folk song while I am encompassing traditional and contemporary, which is where our wires seem to be crossed.

Please clarify your phrase that you can go to a folk club and hear no folk songs. Are you talking about hearing no traditional songs or hearing no folk songs of either type?

You have recently agreed that you would be happy with an evening of Ewan MacColl, Vin Garbutt and Cyril Tawney songs at a folk club. You would obviously unhappy with an evening of Buddy Holly songs. My point about "between MacColl and Holly", as I have explained before, is that there are millions of songs between those extremes. I was trying to determine at which point does contemporary music become unnacceptable at folk clubs.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 10:06 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: Stanron
A little more than that unless you disregard the likelihood of people making songs to record everyday events, experiences, emotions and aspirations
May I refer you to my third paragraph.

"It has also been a vehicle for creative people to comment on current society and some of that will, almost inevitably, eventually attain the 'old songs' and old tunes' status.
"

Woody Guthrie did this, I'm not sure about Tom Lehrer, McColl did it retrospectively as did Eric Bogle. Many 'Singer Songwriters' put themselves forward and only time will tell who gets to last a long time. The famine, and also the Scottish clearances were such traumatic events it would be surprising if no songs survived. Time, and work such as yours, allows the cream to rise to the surface.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 10:36 AM

I wouldn't write off his or anybody's cmpositions as being insignificat to the human condition as you have "Seeds of Love"

I didn't say it was insignificant. (I didn't say Lady Gaga was insignificant, either). I said it didn't fit what you claimed were the basic features of traditional song texts - named people with identifiable occupations doing things that fitted into the traditional economy. [18 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM, I'm not going to quote it all].


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 11:27 AM

Thanks fro your explanation Stanton - my mistake
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 11:33 AM

Stanron - of course
Isn,t Stanton in New Jersey (according to Brecht)
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 06:49 AM

Quote ""Tradition" is the largely oral process that first led to the making, remaking and changing of the songs whose origins are virtually untraceable and unattributable"

I like this definition. It is a pity, though that we will never be able to credit the talented broadside makers who composed so many of them.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 07:01 AM

"the talented broadside makers who composed so many of them."
The broadside "hacks" earned their title because they were poor poets working at great speed - the collections of their works show that pretty clearly
There is viritually no evidence as to which folk songs started on the presses and which were taken from already existing forms and rewritten for urban audiences   
The themes and structures of our folk songs, the insider knowledge and the use of vernacular suggest that most of them came from the communities they depicted
The question of literacy still needs to e discussed fully
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 01:30 PM

Quote - "The broadside "hacks" earned their title because they were poor poets working at great speed"

No 'I think that....' No 'It could be that...." Just statements of opinion given as fact. Who is this man? I was thinking of joining this forum but I think this will be my last visit.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 01:42 PM

[ Guest]Jim Carroll was a close friend of MacColl, he has also done some collecting of songs from travellers, he gives the impression of having a hot line to the almighty at times, on the oither hand he does give people on this forum helpful information regarding singing technique etc


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 02:52 PM

"Just statements of opinion given as fact."
Well no actually
The term 'hack' was applied to broadside poetry centuries ago to describe their bad poetry - the writers were expected to work at conveyor-belt speed tu churn out songs for profit- largely it is trite, artless and formulaic
As a singer I spent many weeks searching our own published collections of broadside (about 30 volumes, for songs to sing and came up with zilch   
The few that were singable were almost certainly the other way of the "two way street" described by the New Age researchers - but nobody knows which was which for certain
Child came up with a perfect description of them "Dunghills with a few diamond in their midst"
Not my opinion - a very common one
Do you really have to reduce this to personal insults Dick - pack it in please
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:45 PM

Jim I have not insulted you, youwere a friend of MacColls, you do give useful help on the other hand you do on occasions give the impression of a know all or someone who has a hot line to the almighty, cop on Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:54 PM

Guest: You're going to be put off by one person's opinions? Please note that this is one person shouting from the wilderness. There are very few here who follow that doctrine.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:22 AM

"Please note that this is one person shouting from the wilderness"
How arrogant can you get
Mudcat is a tiny corner of a rapidly diminishing folk scene in Britain Steve
If all you have to offer are disparaging comments like this it you are representative of the wilderness
No wonder folk song is in the state it is in The UK
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:38 AM

I'll look in later to see if anybody has anything to offer other than personal insults
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:33 AM

Someone is being precious about their precious!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:41 AM

a rapidly diminishing folk scene in Britain

Only according to some. Others disagree as we can see from this thread


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:51 AM

" Others disagree as we can see from this thread"
Yeah well - they would wouldn't they
Unfortunately, their own arguments contradict them - as do the figurs
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

What arguments and figures, Jim? The arguments of those that actually attend folk clubs maybe? And the only figures I have seen indicate that we are in the process of a growth in folk music and changes to how it is presented. What figures do you have that indicate otherwise. All I have seen from you is anecdotal evidence.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

The attendance figures have plummeted - Can't remember if you are one of them, but some have excused this as 'oldies dying off' so someone seems to agree with me
The clubs have diminished in number - acknowledged by people who clain that festivals are the thing now or people are singing at home (this information has been gathered by spy cameras presumably)
THere can be litle doubt that people have turned away from folk song by the number of people who make excuses for there being no guarantee to hear a folk song in a folk club any more
Not anecdotal Dave - actual statements here
I started a thread based on Rod Stradling's declarations of plummeting sales - more figures
People are not only not willing to discuss this situation, but resort to insults when the matter is raised
You are one of the 'good guys' as far as I'm concerned, yet your persistent complacency depresses me - "if you want to hear good folk songs come to Yorkshire" is just that
EFDSS had always been the butt of jokes - now they have even ceased to be funny
An the research side, we have ivory tower researchers who respond to criticism with patronising and insulting and seem to have dedicated themselves to tearing down all past work to make room for their own - Dave Harker's 'Hit-list technique.
Discussions like this have made me more-or-less write off the English folk scene - my concern is now for the survival of what I consider the most important of our art forms
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:02 AM

I started a thread based on Rod Stradling's declarations of plummeting sales

That is anecdotal, Jim.

anecdotal
Dictionary result for anecdotal
/?an?k'd??tl/
adjective
adjective: anecdotal

    (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

I agree entirely that the heady days of the 60s folk club boom is well gone but since the turn of the millennium the folk scene has been showing a steady growth. Albeit not in the direction you want it grow.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:07 AM

How can a declaration by a site owner that his sames of traditional material be 'anecdotal' Dave - maybe he doesn't count how many he sells !!
The scene levelled out after the 60s and created a foundation for folk music
That was still reasonably healthy well into the 1980s and beyond
This depressing situation is very much a part of what is happening today
Think I'll go out for some fresh air
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM

I agree that his CD sales are down but I thought we were talking folk club scene, not CD sales, Jim. How can CD sales from a web site be indicative of folk club attendance?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:55 AM

I can also refer you to the Wiki article which you previously dismissed that states

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music and there are now over 160 folk clubs in the United Kingdom, including many that can trace their origins back to the 1950s including The Bridge Folk Club in Newcastle (previously called the Folk Song and Ballad club) claims to the oldest club still in existence in its original venue (1953)

Going on to say

The nature of surviving folk clubs has also changed significantly, many larger clubs use PA systems, opening the door to use of electric instruments, although drums and full electric line-ups remain rare. The mix of music often includes American roots music, blues, British folk rock, and world music as well as traditional British folk music. From 2000 the BBC Radio 2 folk awards have included an award for the best folk club

You can dismiss Wiki articles all you like but, until you come up with a valid alternative, I am going to take this one at face value.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM

" can also refer you to the Wiki article which you previously dismissed that states"
You can - and it's full of folk superstars with no reference to the clubs
Desperate measures Dave
You have the alternative - dwindling clubs, disappearing membership, desperately low sales of traditional material - and all the excuses that have been put up here
As far as folk song proper, the scene is virtually dead - even EFDSS has walked away from it
Of all the things I have put up, what is inaccurate - low numbers, disappearing clubs, a shift to paid performers, hostility towards traditional songs..... all from these arguments
Have I lied - have I dreamed these arguments ?
Wiki my arse
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:33 AM

it's full of folk superstars with no reference to the clubs

Jim, did you not even read the bit I posted? The one that says

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music and there are now over 160 folk clubs in the United Kingdom, including many that can trace their origins back to the 1950s including The Bridge Folk Club in Newcastle (previously called the Folk Song and Ballad club) claims to the oldest club still in existence in its original venue (1953)

How is that not referring to folk clubs?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM

If you measure the strength of the folk scene only by the number of folk clubs you'll get a very misleading view of what is going on. Whilst the old-style folk clubs are diminishing in number (along with the old-style folkies who attend them) the folk scene is developing in other ways. There are still plenty of clubs in the old style, run by younger people, but also more concerts in venues other than the back room of pubs. House concerts are widespread, but are often only advertised by word of mouth so they remain under the radar. The programme of folk festivals is full throughout much of the year, and these range from large concert events with headline names to small sessions of traditional singing and playing. There is plenty going on, with something for everyone.

As well as performances, there are plenty of workshops in singing and playing at venues all around the country, so the opportunities to learn are much greater than when I started out, when I had to teach myself.

Young people are involved in large numbers, and often sing and play to a far higher standard. They're just not doing it in the old folk clubs.

Young people in particular don't buy CDs, they download music to their phones. More than 1/3 of the sales of my band's CD have come via the internet, although admittedly that includes purchases of physical CDs. Our music has been listened to in more than 30 countries world-wide, thanks to being online.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:55 AM

We also have the issue of what is defined as folk. I think Jim will correct me if I am wrong but I think he is defining folk as traditional only and that could well be on the decline. But the rest of us are, I think, encompassing contemporary folk as well. As I said before, we all could be part right. Maybe traditional folk is being superseded by contemporary folk just as the old style folk clubs are being superseded by the new. Not good if you want to preserve the old songs but good for the development the new!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 08:25 AM

"160 folk clubs"
My point exactly Dave
There were that many within a driving distance of my home in London at the beginning of the 1990s - and I would guess that would be the case in all the major cities
Taking the examples of what constitutions 'folk song' and add that to what is being argued for here, I would think a quarter of that figure would be a generous guess at how many of those 160 clubs cater for folk song lovers (I know what I mean by folk song - nobody has come up with an alternative yet) You are dinging yourself into a very deep hole here.
There is not enough traditional song on line to even scratch the surface of the riches that have been commented
Where can I 'download' any good traditional material - I can listen to a little
The fact that Terry Yarnell and I can't give away one of the largest and wide-ranging collections of traditional song, music, workshops, articles, films.... of traditional music in private hands says what needs to be said about the current interest in it.
I am talking about traditional and traditional based songs - anybody can write a song in any form and call it folk - the term has become totally meaningless
Most newly written songs cone with a little (c) which confines their use to where the copyright cowboys can't reach
I am concerned about folk song; full stop - you have yet to define what you are talking about
Folk song as an art form, reaches far beyond the DWINDLING clubs - it is what is says it is THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE
That is what is being silenced by this apathy and indifference
Both irresponsible and sad
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM

Jim. The article clearly states that "The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends. In London Les Cousins in Greek Street, where John Renbourn often played, and The Scots Hoose in Cambridge Circus, were both casualties.[13] The Singers Club (George IV, Lincoln's Inn) closed its doors in 1993.

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music..."

So, the early 90s to which you refer were already on the decline and reached it's low in the mid 90s. As well as the decline through the 80s, it also makes the point that folk clubs are changing so, even though you may not accept that, it is a fact of life. Given what Howard and a number of other people have said about new venues, concerts and all sorts of other options there is plenty of actual evidence from people on the ground here in England that the picture is nowhere near as bleak as you paint it.

Sorry that you have lost a number of traditional clubs and feel that you can no longer participate in the music you prefer at folk clubs but there is still plenty of good quality folk music, of all types, for the rest of us to enjoy.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM

Oh, and 300! :-)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:06 AM

If the hoary handed sons of the soil in days of yore had the same   opportunities as available today, they would have been after copyright and a few bob just like rats up a drainpipe. The world has changed. To have traditional means of generating folksongs means to be trapped in a timewarp. To use a word such as traditional has the implicit meaning that the genre is fossilized.
What gives anyone the right to say that a modern derivative is in some way pseudo or even fake.
The car has replaced the horse. Does anyone have a problem with that?


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