UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:12 AM

"Everyone to his own". So we're done then.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:15 AM

Just getting Dick to clarify, Jim. He says he would be happy with Martin Carthy but not with pop songs. Yet I have named 2 pop songs and one commercial (Dylan) song that Carthy sings. Is it the performance or content that is more important. These are the grey areas that I am interested in.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:38 AM

The two po songs have no place in folk clubs in my opinion - leave them to the experts in the field
I was never interested too much in Zimmerman's stuff (if people insist in talking about Jimmy Miller I think I'll give Zimmerman and John Pandrich a try) and wouldn't break my neck to listen to it - it doesn't resemble folk as I know it ut as I say - you're the one carrying the rule book - not me
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM

Should have added
Nit-picking such as this helps avoid the real discussion on the responsibility of the clubs who call themselves 'folk' to the music whose name they have stolen
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:45 AM

I went to my local folk music recently, and at the end of the evening it ocurred to me that the only trad song sung all evening was the opening number ( whichis always the same song).
   As to whether a Ewan Mccoll composition is more acceptable than a Ralph McTell song, well,I would say, that Ewan did try to write most of his songs "in the tradition".
Of course, there is that famous story that McColl tells about singing his composition "The Shoals of Herrng" to a trad singer ( Sam Larner?), and the trad singer saying that he remembered the song from his youth ( i.e. long before McColl wrote it).
   We can never, I don't think, get back to the days when trad songs dominated the folk club repertoire but I think we would all like to hear a lot more trad songs in our local folk song clubs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:01 AM

Ewan always took Sam's remarks as a compliment
'Shoals' was largely taken from actuality recordings of Sam and Skipper, Ronnie Balls talking about the old days -
You can trace much of it from the recordings - the tune was an adaptation of a ballad tune from The Greig Keith collection 'Famous Flower of Serving men' - Ewan used it for a number of his songs
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:15 AM

Dave , my opinion is that hattie carroll is a badly written song, although good subject matter, nothing rhymed is imo a well written song, rave on is not a song i wish to hear in a folk club, i have not heard carthys version, andy caven sang the song well,but it is not what i want to hear.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,keith price
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:16 AM

Tunesmith if we're talking about the same club and I think we are. I sang and played trad, other than that I agree with you.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:18 AM

dave the gnome , why are you asking me this?i have never objected to well written songs in a folk style?,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:21 AM

Jim,

Just to clarify re the Empress of Russia, I did say that I didn't know if the Saturday sessions were organised by the same folk that did the regular club.

The final night that I referred to was a regular club night.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM

If someone suggests that they can no longer hear folk songs at folk clubs it is not nitpicking to try and find out what they consider to be songs that they are happy with at folk clubs. I, amongst many, consider contemporary folk songs to have their rightful place in folk clubs. I think that you agree. And we are in complete agreement over what constitutes a traditional folk song.

What I am trying to get to the bottom of is what you consider to be a contemporary folk song and why. We know you think MacColl, Garbutt and Tawney write songs employing "folk techniques" but you do not consider that McTell or Sheran do. This is what I really do not understand.

When I hear, for instance, "Hiring Fair" or "Gallway Girl" I hear distinct folk undertones. Do you not? If I am hearing them "wrong", can anyone tell me why? What about two of my favourites, Richard Thompsons, "Vincent Black Lightning" or Anthony John Clarke's "Irish Eyes". Are they contemporary folk or "replaceable pap"?

As to rules, nah, I don't have a book. I can go to any folk club and hear folk songs. It is you saying that you cant!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:27 AM

Dick, I was trying to find out if it was anything by Carthy or if it had to be a certain style. You have answered that and went on to say "Nothing Rhymed" would be ok but not "Rave On". That fits in with what I am asking Jim. How do you decide what is in the folk style and what is not?

Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:34 AM

https://youtu.be/gJ39vYSMVzU

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:35 AM

"and find out what they consider to be songs that they are happy with at folk clubs"
How about folk songs - that would be a good start
You don't go into a greengrocer's and be told "we don't do vegetables anymore - wuld you settle for paraffin?"
"McTell or Sheran do. "
No - whAt particular folk styles do you think they use - particularly Sheran
McTell can be said to have some traces of blues in his compositions, but f.a.l. to do with British folk styles
Why the hell should those looking for folk have to negotiate an alternative - what sort of outfit are you running?
As you say - you go to a club to hear folk songs not anything other than which has the folk label hung on it
It's a pity the Trades Descriptions Act doesn't apply to the folk scene - you's all be in Carey Street !
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:37 AM

Btw, Rave On is on a Steeleye Span compilation of here on YouTube.

And, no, I am not keen before anyone asks. It is just a novelty recording like "To know him is to love him" with David Bowie on sax or "New York Girls" with Peter Sellers on uke and strange voices :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:38 AM

i can tell you when things are well written, and hattie carroll imo is not
,well of course this is a subject that deserves a different thread [go and start one] there are certain melodic guidelines as to what most people consider in the uk folk revival consider a folk style , i have certain opinions as do other people so its subjective , but so is most peoples decisions as to what they want to hear in folk clubs. And lets get one thing clear Martin Carthy singning rave on, how many times has this happened and how long ago or is this just gnome goobledeegook

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:47 AM

Sandman- it's down to your preferences and it's as simple as that. If you talk about 'folk' clubs or 'traditional' singing you may argue that when you pay your fiver & are disappointed that it's not what you expected, you're asking the impossible, i.e. pleasing ALL the people ALL the time. I try to do that but it's very difficult!
   These terms were used by some of the earliest & most successful clubs like Newcastle and Swindon, but there was always a great variety, the Davy Lamp & Birtley a few miles apart were very different, but interestingly, attracted many of the same people- and although one-off visitors may be misled/disappointed, local punters will surely KNOW what kind of club the local one is & what the general ambience is?

   Jim Carroll, the folks at the Empress of Russia had their own idea of what the music was about & acted accordingly- it WAS on a Thursday night & along with Jake Thackeray & Tom Robinson, guests included the Old Hat Band from Suffolk and Johnny Doughty- I well recall driving him up from Camber for the night- so really we're back to your idea of what music or performers are good/valid/traditional/folk & we've been there before- I know what I like & so do other people- get used to it!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:50 AM

I'm not running anything, Jim. I'm trying to determine just what it is that constitutes a contemporary folk song for you and why it is different to what constitutes a contemporary folk song for me.

Why do you say MacColl's "Dirty Old Town" is written employing "folk techniques" but Sheran's "Nancy Mulligan" is not?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

of course its my prefernces,that is why i choose to go to certain clubs and not others.
however when i ran a club i had two considerastions my prefernces and regular members prefernces. hence i booked andy caven , my policy when i ran clkubs was too book 60 per cent of what i liked and forty per cent of what regular members might ask for.
that does not mean when i turn up at a folk club that is what i want to hear, but its easy enough a little research on a computer.
when i pay my fiver to hear martin carthy i know what i am getting and it is not [ despite [gnomes statement... buddy holly].
in my opinion the more important problem is the low standard of performing at some singers clubs at guest booking clubs my experience has been better.
When has Carthy sang buddy holly songs?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:03 AM

to paraphrase the great fred trueman , i would ask people who want to sing buudy holly to jump off a bridge but i am a kind man i wouldhave keith fletcher to stand below to catch them

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:11 AM

Dave
Can you link me to anythng folk that vaguely corresponds to THIS
OR THIS
Is that a Devon or a Yorkshire accent he's singing in ?
For Christ's sake
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:13 AM

to clarify fletcher was a cricketer called the gnome, so maybe it would be more apt if i said i would send buddy holly singers to jump off the nearest bridge, but being a kind man i would have dave the gnome to catch them at at the bottom

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:19 AM

I've just checked Sheran's Wiki entry (as you seem to be afan of the site)
Not one single reference top him being linked to folk (though it does say he performed with Elton John - maybe he's a folk singer too!)
This - as the Goons often used to say to close their show - "is all in thee mind - you know"
You appear to be claiming off your own bat that Serin is a folk singer
Has the scene really reached that depth ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:34 AM

What I find confusing is that Jim sometimes insists that "folk" means "traditional"., but he then admits that folk-like songs are acceptable, and that one of his best nights in a club didn't have much to do with "folk". So the question then is where to draw the line between "folk" and other forms of music. That boundary will always be vague and to a large extent a question of personal taste. However if you regard traditional songs as having a particular quality because of the way they have come to us, then the only distinction between composed songs is one of personal taste. You may prefer a McColl song over one by Donovan because one is closer to folk forms, but that doesn't make it a better song.

Personally I could never see what connection there was between say Nick Drake or Donovan, or Simon & Garfunkel for that matter, and folk, except that one interpretation of "folk" has come to mean a singer-songwriter with a guitar. That's possibly of American origin, in the Woody Guthrie tradition, but whatever its origins it has stuck.

I think what is acceptable to put before a folk club audience depends at least as much on content and attitude as provenance. A song with a message or a story, with words up front and with a connection to the audience will often go down well. As for actual pop songs , it depends on context. If a floor singer started to turn up at a club and sang only pop songs every week, then no matter how good they were someone should probably have a quiet word. When an established performer of traditional songs throws one in, it's a bit of fun and not meant to be taken seriously - lighten up. Or sometimes a different interpretation can shed new light on a song - I think the Tabor/Oysterband cover of "Love will Tear Us Apart" is streets ahead of the original because they make it feel more personal, but I know many will disagree.

I don't think any folk club audiences want to hear a night of pop songs, but in my (admittedly now limited) experience of folk clubs I don't think this happens very often. I think Jim may have been unfortunate in his own experience of modern clubs. Where I do agree is that poor performance standards are a greater threat. I can't see why anyone would want to submit themselves to that, except for the opportunity to sing themselves, and I don't think they are a good advert for folk music. However in places where good standards are encouraged I think they are higher than ever, as singers and musicians now have far more opportunities to obtain instruction.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:43 AM

I have always tried to answer your questions honestly, Jim, but you seem to be avoiding mine.

To me, both the songs in those links seem to have been written employing "folk techniques". Please note that I am talking about the songs, not the presentation. Take away the showbiz razzamataz, imagine someone like Christie Moore singing them, then tell me how they are not written in a folk style.

I would be happy to see Mr Sheran, on his own with a guitar, performing those songs anywhere. I am not a big fan of his other stuff but he does make a good job of some traditional songs btw.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:47 AM

...And I have never claimed that Ed Sheran is a folk singer. You are, once again, putting up a straw man. Please stick to the point. In what way are those songs different to other contemporary folk songs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:51 AM

Sheran's Wiki entry

"Sheeran" might have worked better.


Not one single reference top him being linked to folk

So look harder. Is "the Parting Glass" not a folksong?

Like Ewan MacColl, some of his songs are more folky than others, and he seems to be getting more interested in traditional material as time goes on. I doubt he's ever gone as far from tradition as MacColl did with that godawful schlocky piece of Cole Porter pastiche "The First Time Ever". (Come to think of it, "Dirty Old Town" is basically American too - the tune might be straight out of Vernon Dalhart).

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:59 AM

I can recall Martin singing Rave on- probably not in a folk club though- he also did a fine version of Proud Mary & good for him....
Creedence Clearwater were a great band, with a lot of musical credence (sorry about that!)-I've done their stuff as well as Buddy Holly IN MY OWN WAY & certainly not all night- no apologies for that....It's only PART of something bigger, like Johnny Doughty or Margaret Barry, so I have no intention of jumping off a bridge just yet... Keith Fletcher used to drop as lot of catches, didn't he?

yes Dick, it was a nice wee session out on the Marsh- not sure whether to go to Tenterden this year but we might repeat it if I do?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:59 AM

"So look harder. Is "the Parting Glass" not a folksong?"
Of course it is - but not sung like that
Is Rod Stewart a folk singer because he sings Wild Mountain Thyme or George Butterworth a folk composer because he used 'Bonnie Annie to compose 'Banks of Green Willow' ?
Wouldn't have either of them a any folk club I frequented (despite the fact I think Butterworth's composition to be one of the most exquisite orchestral compositions)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:27 AM

I drop catches too, Jim(B), but I am pretty soft to land on :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:35 AM

Combining songs and singers from the last couple of posts, what's wrong with this, Jim?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM

jim b , i think you should go and sid has promised to take me to the marsh

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:47 AM

dave,
it is ok but i have heard better and worse, to be fair guitar is accompanying rather than singer follwing accompaniment.
i am not sure if he was not so well known whether he would be good enough to book , but of course he would bring bums on seats regardlessof how good he is

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 08:16 AM

"what's wrong with this, Jim?"
Maybe I don't understand what you're on about Dave (other than avoiding the fact that Sheren has as much to do with folk as has Maria Callas)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Tunemith
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 09:21 AM

I remember when Fairports, a million years ago, used to end with a rock'a'roll medley and it would get the biggest applause of the night. The audience's reaction used to drive a real folkie friend of mine crazy.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 11:24 AM

"used to drive a real folkie friend of mine crazy."
Can't see why - that's what they did best
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM

ok, eds version is ok, i have heard better and have heard much worse, however he would put bums on seats in folk clubs and if he was singing trad songs like that , that would be a good thing and might introduce a lot of people to the music and folk clubs

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 01:42 PM

jim b, if i book Martin Carthy ,i do not do so to hear him sing rave on, i would be selling tickets and people would expect him to sing the material he is renowned for. i would not book leon rosselson and expect him to sing buddy holly songs neither would people buying tickets for the concert

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 01:47 PM

Just that you should not judge someone on their image, Jim. And you are far more skilful at avoiding the issue than me. You have still not explained the difference between the various contemporary folk songs that I have listed. Other than you like some and not others. Which just boils down to personal taste.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:05 PM

"And you are far more skilful at avoiding the issue than me. "
I have answered avery single point you and anybody else has made
You have yet to tie up your '54 definition with what you think a folk club should put on
Love to learn how Ed Sheeran (thanks Jack) fits into that one
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:50 PM

I have answered avery single point you and anybody else has made

Oh no you haven't!

Go to 23 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM for an unanswered question. Repeated since. Very simply, why do you consider some contemporary songs suitable for folk clubs but not others?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:16 PM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:43 AM

That should be contemporary folk songs of course.

Do we think the discussion on contemporary folk should be on a thread of its own or is it part of the changing UK folk scene?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 03:24 AM

"23 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM"
What have I not answered there Dave ?
I did do by putting Sheeran's song up - - if you can't tell the difference between his song and those others you listed then there is no point in our continuing - I'm not sure there has been for a long time
The most unique and important aspect of traditional song is that it is word based - the songs carry the stories, ideas, emotions, appropriations, experiences..... of 'the folk' - the people who made and carried them they are narratives with tunes
The song makers you listed, "MacColl, Garbutt and Tawney", make songs make songs using a similar form - you might have added Eric Bogle, Loon Rossleson, Jack Warshaw, Enoch Kent, Miles Wooton, Pete Smith, John Pole.... and the many, many others who used the same composition techniques
To my untrained ear, those you listed are indistinguishable from pop songs, if I wanted to listen to them, I would be listening to music that happened to have words
What words tere are are either drowned out by what should be the accompaniment but, rather, dominates the performance
Joust listened to Thompson.... the narrative - if there is one, in unfollowable, the words are turned to gibberish by having not making grammatical sense... broken up to make room for long gutar
breaks... if you removed the guitar the piece would he less than half the length
One of the great problems of much accompaniment of traditional songs is that, as skilful as it may be played, it swamps the narrative - you could go for a piss between lines
Our folk songs are statements in verse - your music is as far away as you can get from that
I've said this over and over again - your examples bear no resmblence to our folk song repertoire - if that is what you are selling as folk you're conning the punters and, while you're at it, you are destroying a people's art form
Sory Dave - we are not sppeaking the same language - you are arguing for the hostile takeover that hast taken place
I have no intention of climbing fences at my age - go read Lloyd's classic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:02 AM

Ok, Jim. Your phrase "To my untrained ear, those you listed are indistinguishable from pop songs" sums it up. You cannot explain to me why some contemporary folk is ok while some is not so It seems that it is all down to personal taste as I have said all along! On that note, I shall take this discussion elsewhere to see if someone else can explain it. Look for a thread called "Different types of contemporary folk". Feel free to join in if you like but unless you have anything extra to add I think you may find it boring:-(

What I would like to add is my thanks for a well mannered and interesting discussion. Isn't it nice to be able to disagree strongly without the rancour and bitterness we see so often from some below the line.

Cheers

Dave.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:33 AM

Yes we seem to have meandered off the topic UK60s Folk Club boom

I would suggest that times do change and that word meanings have and do change

Not everyone wants to nor needs to change their thinking, others will argue that is not necessarily good think to ignore passage of time and how things have changed

Folk song ~ to many like me includes traditional song, however it is defined ~ it does not exclude Contemporary folk song ~ yes agree sometimes difficult to separate contemporary folk song from popular music and certainly whilst pop artist use traditional song to arrange and record and entertain audiences it is bound to get worse in the future

Time is a respecter of no man ~ we are all getting older and audiences are younger and looking to modern ways ~ hopefully still respecting the sources of their music

I do applaud the arrangements by musically gifted artists of traditional song using the folk instruments such as fiddles, guitars concertinas et al as well as the unaccompanied singers which is still very popular in dedicated sessions

Ray (over 70 btw)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:48 AM

Lots of sense in there, Ray. I think 99.9% of the population would agree with you. I certainly do.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM

This post is in anticipation of the next one if it succeeds>

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:50 AM

400. OOOOh I cheated!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:54 AM

"I would suggest that times do change and that word meanings have and do change"
If we are to continue to communicate any changes need a consensus
When you are talkig of a specific historically based music you cannot arbitrarily change its definition to suit personal taste otherwise you lose it
99% of the population either understand or care what folk music is so it is 'poulist' to rely on their non-surveyed views - that's what gave us Brexit and the "many" referred to are in fact very few and dwindling rapidly so even erzatz folk is losing out bu not having an identity
Jim