UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:31 AM

Does anybody out there have an idea of how many folk music clubs existed in the UK at the height of the 60s folk music boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:35 AM

42

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

42? No, surely! There must have been at least 50!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:21 AM

Heinz made it 57 I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:25 AM

"Folk Clubs Sir, thousands of them"

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:03 AM

Yes indeedy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Sean O'Shea
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:37 AM

I wouldn't know.What I do know is that at the end of the sixties, you could go to a different club in Exeter every single night of the week.Spend a pound and you could buy entry, a packet of cigs and a good swallow for your pleasure.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Hagman
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:39 AM

"Once, back in the heady days of the sixties and seventies, folk clubs abounded all over the country. Now, while they have not disappeared altogether, they are thin on the ground. At the peak of the folk revival, there were hundreds of clubs in and around London, seventy-two on Merseyside, a club seven nights a week in most of the big cities. Every town and many a village had a folk club. In the universities and colleges they flourished. In Edinburgh there was even one in the police social club."

P. xiii, Introduction. J.P. Bean. Singing From The Floor: A History of British Folk Clubs. Faber & Faber : London, 2014.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 09:40 AM

In the late 60s and early 70s what I never came across was participatory events such as instrumental sessions or singarounds. Even our local singers club operated fairly formally as an open stage event. It may be that they were just absent in my area or, in pre internet days, you just had to know the right people. These days there still seems to be as much opportunity to participate but it is less inviting to the outsider as fewer events are designed for performing to an audience.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 09:54 AM

I agree entirely with what's been said here though it's worth remembering that not long after the startup of the revival the music industry latched on to the idea that there might be a few bob in it fpr them and some of these clubs were outcomes of that
For me, when the money boys lost interest the scene found its own level and began to call the shots for itself
For me, that led to the real Golden Age of folk song, with singers deciding for themselves what was worth singing
My first experience of live music was in The Cavern in Liverpool where you could hear some of the finest jazz in Britain

The same as I described on the folk scene happened to Jazz - a discovery, a brief period of comercialisation and a leveling out
By the time I got to London at the end of the sixties I could sit in 'New Merlin's Cave' in Mount Pleasant and listen to Bruce Turner and Humph in comfort until my hair stood on end with pleasure
Good days
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM

3,000?
Batman mentioned Singing From The Floor

Telegraph review of Singing From The Floor :
" ... There were around 3,000 clubs, though many were short-lived and run by those Dick Gaughan calls “fanatical amateurs”...."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/worldfolkandjazz/10653986/What-was-the-folk-music-scene-really-like-in-the-Sixties.html 
~~~~~~~
Singing From The Floor - J P Bean
thread
thread.cfm?threadid=153720 

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 11:12 AM

If 3000 clubs is about right, that means that there could have been around a quarter of millions visits to folk music clubs per week back then.
    Now, I bet, no other genre of music could boast those figures!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM

Jim,

At what date do you put "the startup of the revival" and when do you believe the music industry latched on?

I am no defender of the music industry, far from it, but by enabling people to hear second and third rate copyists that became popular a good number of people turned to earlier roots or what we might call the real thing.

Like all things that become fashionable with the masses the size of the audience eventually gets back to something like it used to be before "the revival". Folk and jazz always were a minority sport.

The demise of "folk" and revivalist jazz is most probably because the people, singers/musicians and audience are coming or have come to the end of their days.

Fortunately there is an untold wealth of material available for future generations to enjoy.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 12:06 PM

"At what date do you put "the startup of the revival" and when do you believe the music industry latched on?"
I believe the earliest performances of folk were those arranged by Lomax at The Theatre Royal in Stratford East when he was on the run from McCarthy
The folk boom I'm not too sure about, but I know I had Kingston Trio and Clancy Brothers albums in the early sixties
The problem with the boom was they rather dominated the airwaves with erzatz folk (all the best stuff was on The Third Programme, which nobody listened to)
The other problem was newbies recognised the erzatz stuff as real folk and developed a taste for that rather than the Harry Cox's and Sam Larners
I can still remember the culture shock when somebody gave me a copy of MacColl's Folkways Vol 1 album of The Child Ballads = nearly ended us as a plant-pot stand
Luckily I had mates in Manchester where I could listen to Terry Whelan, Dave Hillary, terry Griffiths, Tom Gillfellon and Harry Boardman - that wasn't on offer to me in Liverpool then
There is a wealth of material for future generations to enjot - as long as somebody remembers where the key is
That's our job and there's no time like the present
I only hope I'm going to be around long enough to enjoy their enjoying it
It's giving me a greatt buzz here in Ireland - still coming down from last Sundays singing club in Dublin run by youngsters - magic!
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM

I believe the earliest performances of folk were those arranged by Lomax at The Theatre Royal in Stratford East when he was on the run from McCarthy

What would been the date of the first of these Stratford events?
Many people have written that the earliest manifestation of the folk revival in the UK were the original Edinburgh People's Festival in the summers of 1951–54. There was a wide range of people from trade unionists, enthusiasts, academics and local politicians acknowledge in the founding of these with the cultural contribution made by Hamish Henderson, Ewan MacColl, Joan Littlewood, Norman Buchan, Alan Lomax, Joe Corrie and Councillor Jack Kane being mentioned as the main movers.
Lomax had the good sense to record a number of the concerts.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:01 PM

"If 3000 clubs is about right, that means that there could have been around a quarter of millions visits to folk music clubs per week back then.
    Now, I bet, no other genre of music could boast those figures!"

3000 clubs, each with an average attendance of over 80 ?
Some people will believe anything.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:12 PM

How old are you? Lots of folk clubs back in the heyday had attendances of 100, and even then, they were turning people away.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:24 PM

"What would been the date of the first of these Stratford events?"
Around the same time as Edinburgh I think - Lomax was at both and probably helped inspire them - I really don't want to make this a pissing competition
Got the recordings of Edinburgh and Lomax's Scots stuff from the time is stunning
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:47 PM

"How old are you? Lots of folk clubs back in the heyday had attendances of 100, and even then, they were turning people away. "

Im the late 60s / early 70s went to clubs where, if you went to the bar, you had to wait for somebody else to want a drink before you could get back in. I also went to clubs (seldom more than once) with only a handful of people and most often to clubs that were comfortable busy. From venue sizes where I lived I would have put a typical audience in the 40 - 50 mark.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:50 PM

Well, by the late 60s, as far as I'm concerned, the boom was well and truly over.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 03:39 PM

"How old are you? Lots of folk clubs back in the heyday had attendances of 100, and even then, they were turning people away."
3000 of them ? Name them.
I'm over 60 - how old are you, and what's that got to do with anything ? ?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM

Guest, timing is everything. When did you start going to folk music clubs, and how old were you?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:36 PM

The late Barrie Roberts started his folk club in 1958 at the Fitters Arms Walsall. He said - the first week they were queuing round the block by six o'clock.

I can't remember any music industry people round the provincial clubs.   they'd have had a pretty thin time of it down The Jolly Porter in Exeter. Obviously they would have tried acts out in the London clubs.

I've yet to meet a booking agent who has actually ever been in a folk club. Not if you press them on the matter,,,,have you ever actually been inside a folk club yourself....?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootennanny
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:06 PM

As a matter of fact Al I was a booking agent and ran a folk club and visited others along with jazz clubs. I still go to folk clubs on rare occasions.

Sadly the kind of jazz that interests me is almost non existent hardly anyone left to play it unfortunately which is one of the reasons I mentioned above regarding traditional British folk singers of the type beloved of Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:30 PM

what sort of jazz is that. many of my friends are into jazz - perhaps i can help you. I don't know about Ireland, but there seems quite a lot of jazz around. And of course it a golden age for recorded jazz.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Kenny B
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:35 PM

Hootenanny if you are interested in New Orleans or trad
Tuba Skinny are worth a listen to

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Hagman
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 10:05 PM

"BATman"? Thanks, FreddyHeadey - I'll get my cape out.... :-)

An appendix in "Singing From The Floor" gives a little more help, but a definite list would seem to be very elusive, unless there is a particularly diligent PhD student up at Leeds or somewhere. Some of these may bring back some memories for you islanders:

"The Clubs.

During the period covered in Singing from the Floor an inestimable number of folk clubs has existed, some for only a short time, others for decades. It is unlikely that any comprehensive list of all known folk clubs could ever be compiled; the following is a selection of the clubs that were there in the earliest days of the revival, and the ones that have been referenced by the singers, musicians and others who appear in the book.

London

Black Horse, Rathbone Place Bill Leader and Gill Cook, who worked in Collett’s record shop, opened the Broadside Folk Club in the early sixties. It was here that Bert Jansch first sang ‘Needle of Death’, written as a tribute to his friend Buck Polly, who had recently died.

Bunjie’s A cellar folk club below a coffee house in Litchfield Street, Charing Cross, it opened in the mid-fifties and ran through the sixties.

Fox, Islington Green Began in 1964 with residents Bob Davenport and the Rakes. Davenport later ran clubs at the John Snow in Soho, where he gave Peter Bellamy his first floor spot, and the Empress of Russia, St John Street.

King and Queen, Foley Street The first club in Britain, where Bob Dylan sang from the floor in December 1962.

Half Moon, Putney This was more a music venue than a folk club. Gerry Lockran started folk blues sessions in 1963 and most of the leading British and American contemporary folk and blues acts played there, as well as rock bands like the Rolling Stones and the Who.

Herga Folk Club, Wealdstone Began in 1963, later moved to Pinner where it is still in existence. The Lakeman brothers’ parents were once residents and John Heydon was club organiser for twenty-three years. The first club to book Robin and Barry Dransfield as a duo.

Les Cousins, Greek Street Opened in 1965 below a Greek restaurant in the same premises that the Skiffle Cellar occupied from 1958 to ‘60. Les Cousins was the main venue in London for blues and contemporary folk music, with all-nighters on a Saturday.

Roundhouse, Wardour Street Cyril Davies opened a skiffle club in an upstairs room of the pub in 1955. Later became London Blues and Barrelhouse Club, run by Alexis Korner, who brought in visitors like Muddy Waters, Big Bill Broonzy and Champion Jack Dupree.

Singers’ Club Ewan MacColl had opened Ballads and Blues in 1957 at the Princess Louise, High Holborn, before starting the Singers’ Club with Peggy Seeger in 1961. The club’s first location was the Association of Cinematograph Television and Allied Technicians (ACTT) trade union building in Soho Square and later venues included the Princess Louise, Pindar of Wakefield, Merlin’s Cave and the Union Tavern. Known for its strict policy regarding traditional repertoire

Scots Hoose, Cambridge Circus A pub in Charing Cross Road, where Bruce Dunnett ran the folk club in an upstairs room, where the Young Tradition were formed and John Renbourn first met Bert Jansch.

Troubadour, Old Brompton Road, Earls Court A cellar room below a coffee house that opened in 1954. The leading folk venue in London until Les Cousins opened, and a stop-off for visiting American folk artists, including Bob Dylan. At different times, Ramblin’ Jack Elliott, Martin Carthy and Martin Winsor and Redd Sullivan were resident singers.

White Bear, Hounslow The folk club was opened in 1965 by the Strawberry Hill Boys, later the Strawbs, led by Dave Cousins. In 1969, with Cousins still involved, it became the Hounslow Arts Lab, where on one occasion David Bowie made an appearance.


Elsewhere

Birmingham, Jug of Punch The Ian Campbell Folk Group opened their first club at the Trees pub in Birmingham in 1959, later moving to Digbeth Civic Hall where the club became known as the Jug of Punch and regularly attracted audiences of up to four hundred.

Bradford Topic Opened in 1956 by schoolteacher Alex Eaton and still running; the Topic is the longest-running folk club in Britain.

Bristol Troubadour A contemporary and blues club, ran from 1966 to ‘71, with a musical policy similar to that of Les Cousins.

Cambridge St Lawrence Folk Song Society Founded in 1950 by students at the university, although too early to be recognised as a folk ‘club’.

Chelmsford Folk Club Where Nic Jones came to notice in the mid-sixties as a member of the Halliard, the resident group.

Cornwall, Folk Cottage An old barn in Mitchell, a hamlet near Newquay and the base for folk and blues in the mid-sixties. Pete Stanley and Wizz Jones were resident and Ralph McTell got his first break there.

Edinburgh University Folk Society Founded in 1958 by medical student Stuart MacGregor and folklorist Hamish Henderson. The following year, resident singers Dolina MacLennan and Robin Gray started a singing night at the Waverley Bar in Edinburgh, where many Scottish performers gained experience. In 1960 a London entrepreneur Roy Guest opened the Howff, a haunt of the teenage Bert Jansch.

Glasgow Folk Song Club Located in a café, the Corner House on Argyll Street, and organised by Norman Buchan and his wife Janey. Archie Fisher, Josh McRae and Hamish Imlach were among the early residents.

Harrogate Folk Club Began in the early sixties, the club where Robin and Barry Dransfield began performing, in a bluegrass group the Crimple Mountain Boys.

Hull, Folk Union One The Folksons, who soon became the Watersons, opened their own club in 1959 in a dance hall. They moved on to Ye Old Blue Bell where in 1965 they and the folk club were featured in the BBC television documentary Travelling for a Living.

Liverpool, Spinners Folk Club Opened in 1958 in the basement of a restaurant, Samson and Barlow’s. For years, until the demands of their concert and television work took over, the Spinners were the resident group and they made their first record at the club. Later moved to Gregson’s Well and the Trident.

Manchester Sports Guild (MSG) An old warehouse in Long Millgate, the MSG opened in 1961 with jazz downstairs and, later, folk upstairs. All the top performers played there and a singer’s night on Mondays gave many artists, including Christy Moore, their early opportunities.

Manchester, Wayfarers The first folk club in Britain was started in 1954 by Harry and Lesley Boardman as a ‘folk circle’ at the Wagon and Horses pub. Two years later this became the Wayfarers folk club at the Thatched House in Spring Gardens

Newcastle Folk Song and Ballad Club Originated with folk nights that Louis Killen and Johnny Handle organised in a jazz club, moving to the Bridge Hotel, where it ran for many years. It inspired other clubs in the Tyneside area, notably Birtley, opened in 1962 by the Elliott family, and Marsden, home of the Marsden Rattlers

Oxford University Heritage Society Founded in 1956, Louis Killen and, later, June Tabor gained valuable experience while students.

Sheffield, Barley Mow Run by Malcolm Fox from 1964 at the Three Cranes. Tony Capstick and Dave Burland were early floor singers and, in 1966, the first club that Martin Carthy and Dave Swarbrick played as a duo.

Sheffield, Highcliffe The Highcliffe folk and blues club that began in 1967 was an early form of today’s mini-concert venues. The Humblebums, Barbara Dickson and John Martyn played their first gigs in England there.

Solihull, Boggery Organised and compèred by Jasper Carrott at the Old Moseleians Rubgy Club, it opened in 1969 with a focus on entertainment.

Surbiton Assembly Rooms The biggest folk club in Britain, with two halls, one with 700 capacity. Derek Sarjeant and Gerry Lockran started the club in 1961; by the time it closed it had 23,000 members.

Wentworth, near Rotherham, ‘Folk at the Rock’ Opened in 1974 at the Rockingham Arms, moving to nearby Maltby in 2007. Soon after founder and organiser Rob Shaw retired in 2012, the club folded.

York, Black Swan The present club, in the upstairs room in one of the oldest pubs in York, has been running since the mid-seventies. It was the venue for Nancy Kerr and Eliza Carthy’s first gig together, in 1992."

(Not sure how Bean came up with his incredibly definitive "seventy-two on Merseyside" in his Introduction....)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:46 AM

Personally, I found 'Singing From the Floor' mildly interesting but incredibly limited - and occasionally agenda driven
I'd be interested to know what the other contenders for the title of "Manchester, Wayfarers The first folk club in Britain" thought of the award being given to 'The Wayfarers' ((one of my early haunts)

"beloved of Jim Carroll."
Beloved by thousands when I entered the scene Hoot - Topic Records pioneered it and continue to stumble on with it despite the tsunamis of disinterest that continue to hit the scene
We had albums and even shops exclusively distributing the stuff and dozens of magazines animatedly discussing it and promoting it
I'm not sure whether your bringing me into is is a suggestion that my view is mine alone or an acknowledgement that folk music proper has been ethnically cleansed from the scene
I would hate to believe that me and all the hundreds of collections and works of my research are all that is left of folk song - if I did I'd be tempted to give outr collection to Oxfam and take up macramé
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:09 AM

Yes a definitive list remains illusive and will probably continue to be so ~ the legacy of this driven by collectors such as MacColl and Bert Lloyd, vinyl records and the early singer song writers, music hall, pubs, drop outs, post war ethos, entertainment and professionalism all contributed to the folk club boom ~ people wanted to entertain themselves and the "elders" wanted to provide a diversion where everyone could go and or participate

Unfortunately nowadays we are struggling to find even Youth clubs! Pubs continue to close and community spirit exists more in Food banks, god help us

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM

Hagman:

The book to which you refer isn't completely reliable.

It is true that Gill Cook ran a Monday night folk club at the Black Horse in Rathbone Place. But, the Ballads and Blues Association was already running a very successful Saturday evening club at that venue prior to Gill's Monday nights. Gill's club catered mainly to the more traditional audience but also included Jansch, Renbourne etc   The reason that the Black Horse ceased to be host to both was the sad early death of Danny the landlord.

The Singer's Club: I am not sure that their first venue was at the ACTT in Soho Square. I think there may be some confusion here. The Ballads and Blues Association had used this venue prior to the existence of the Singer's Club. I am sure that this came about because one of our part time team was a camera man for ITV and was the union rep there. If there are any people around who were at the first Singers Club nights the may be able to confirm their first venue. Was it the Bull & Mouth Tavern?

King & Queen, Foley Street; First club in Britain ??? Or do I misunderstand you?
Peta Webb and Ken Hall still run a very good club there.

The Fox, Islington Green I believe morphed into the Islington Folk Club at various venues which still operates in the Clerkenwell area.

Jim

The reason I mentioned your name is that you constantly bemoan the fact that the area of music which you define as folk is non existant in the English folk clubs. As I mentioned above it is possibly because the performers and their audience are sadly declining in number thanks to the grim reaper.

Why do you always think that a mention of your name is some form of attack?

And by the way I am well aware of the important role played by Topic. I once worked there. I would however question your "dozens of magazines".

Kenny B;

Thanks for the suggestion. I am aware of Tuba Skinny, perhaps you will let me know the next time they are to appear in a club in London.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 05:43 AM

Even our old school in Inverness had its own folk club during the sixties in the cellar known as "The Katacomb"

As "first year", I wasn't allowed down there.

Here is one of the original members

https://youtu.be/BtYdo3gPvZE

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:12 AM

"which you define as folk"
I don't define it - that was done far before my time
Until someone comes up with a n alternative and gets a consensus for it, that's the one which will remain
The fact that no-one has done so is indicative that my fears on the health of the folk club scene are well-grounded
If the present incumbents are dying off that underlines my fears
"Why do you always think that a mention of your name is some form of attack? "
Why mention my name as if I am the only one to hold the views I do
I suggest that, rather than dying off, enthusiasts left the scene when they kept finding "Clubs with no folk" (I'm sure there's a song in there somewhere !
Want a list - Folk Music, Folk Review, Sing, Sing Out - Spin, Troubadour, Tradition, Musical Traditions, Ethnic, Folk Bulletin, London Folk, Garland (2 diferent ones), Folk and Country, The Lark.... and the dozens produced by individual clubs, such as Manchester, Bristol, Nottingham, several in London, Birmingham
I know Karl Dallas edited at least four
That's off the top of my head - I'll nip up in the loft and dig out the names of the rest if you wish
These ranged from club info sheets to monthly discussion and idea exchanging publications
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:36 AM

And by the way
"I am well aware of the important role played by Topic. I once worked there. "
Me too - I spent several weeks installing several light and power circuits in the then new Stroud Green Road premises - like letting a kid loose in a sweet-shop
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 12:08 PM

There were so many, and they were so desperate, that even I got bookings ;)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:58 PM

Hagman re Tuba Skinny 2019
POSTED BY ERIKA LEWIS ON TUBA SKINNY’S FACEBOOK PAGE:
“So, we’ve been scrambling to come up with a tour in the UK this summer, but unfortunately, do not have the funds necessary to make it there and back. We are hoping that next summer will provide the opportunities to make it happen. Thanks to all who have encouraged us to come over, hopefully we will see you next year!”
Yes, Erika, let’s hope for next year. The UK JAZZ COMMUNITY truly want Tuba Skinny to tour the UK and would be only too willing to help make it happen.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 07:09 PM

Hagman above said
Hull, Folk Union One The Folksons, who soon became the Watersons, opened their own club in 1959 in a dance hall. They moved on to Ye Old Blue Bell where in 1965 they and the folk club were featured in the BBC television documentary Travelling for a Living.
The BFI allows you to watch the whole 45 minutes of Travelling for a Living here
https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-travelling-for-a-living-1966-online
I think the commentary refers to 2 or 3 hundred folk clubs but that seems a bit low.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 04:38 AM

I suppose the question we ought to be asking ourselves is, why aren't we all driving Austin Cambridges and Singer Gazelles?

In those days, there were these things called factories making these wondrous vehicles. Somehow, you can't help feeling that something important has been lost.....

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:04 AM

Another thing, in those days, seeing a playable guitar was a wondrous experience. you wanted to hear what it sounded like, what its proud owner could actually do? Roomfuls of people would assemble to catch a glimpse of a guitar.

Its like cars. Nowadays - every bugger has got a car where you stick the key in and it goes - this was not always the case.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:20 AM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM

Cannot remember ever having gone to a folk club either to listen to a guitar or catch a glimpse of one - now who was singing and what they were singing was what in the main drew people in.

Those days unfortunately have gone, the accompaniment is now more important than the "song" which is more often than not bland, vapid nonsense.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:35 AM

Yes, Teribus. The summers were warmer, the snows deeper and the wagon wheels were bigger too!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:56 AM

In the 60's Folk music had far greater exposure on both Radio and TV.
The Dubliners appeared on top of the pops,as did many other "Folk Artists". Julie Felix had a regular spot on the Frost report. Even in the 70's the spinners had a bbc show that ran for 7 years. Although the mediums of exposure were far more limited than today I would argue that the material on offer was far more varied for what could be classed "popular" music.i.e. given repeatable airtime on Radio London, Radio Caroline and the BBC. The demand for folk/contemporary folk was there, otherwise the material would not be on offer. Today if anyone wants to have entertainment of a particular genre,it is available in abundance. Does this saturation dampen the desire to explore? Is folk music now pigeonholed to oblivion, hiding in dark recesses where it can no longer be easily found. Or perhaps society has changed. The enforcement of breathalyser limits, the closure of many pubs, the increased cost of beer, all have played a part. Since 2000, the number of pubs in the UK has fallen by 17%, or 10,500 pubs, according to the British Beer & Pub Association. Even the renowned Surbiton Assembly Rooms is now, sadly, a part of Surbiton High School for Girls.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jos
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 09:22 AM

I'm surprised that the number of pubs has fallen by only 17% since 2000. I thought it was much more. There used to be five pubs within easy walking distance (about a mile) of my house - now there are two.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 09:53 AM

Jos It depends upon whose figures are accurate. Another set of numbers:
https://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/files/Briefing_Closing%20time_web.pdf

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 11:20 AM

Not forgetting Cy Grant on Tonight, and Lance Percival on TW3 (Or was it Frost?) Rory and Alec McEwan were almost ubiquitous, and there were sightings of Robin Hall and Jimmy MacGregor Later on the wonderful Grant Baynham performed on Rantzen, and I think Jake Thackray too. They were everywhere, Al Stewart, Don Partridge etc etc etc etc.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 11:24 AM

Yes indeed The Spinners singing The Bleacher Lass of Kelnhaugh on Pebble Mull at one......taking fplk song to the people.

But did the traddies respect them......

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM

Yes John the list goes on but I don't think the above people would be accepted under the 1954? bullshit rules set up by the self appointed self important Folk Music Police.

Too much like entertainment, not serious enough.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Kenny B
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 12:42 PM

Hootenany, Al, John McMenzie * Iains very valid points

and are the F.M.P a bunch of masochists? who cling to the past but use all the modern devices to preach to the folks who have moved on
Just wondered?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 12:45 PM

It is interesting that Luke Kelly recorded shoals of herring in 1957, and the Clancy brothers and Tommy Makem released a version. This was first released in 1962 by the author Ewan MacColl. The Dubliners recorded many Ewan MacColl songs, as did many other Folkies. Are Gordon Lightfoot and Ralph McTell not folksingers? Should the likes of the Dubliners and Dublin City Ramblers be dammed for performing contemporary material? and where would that leave the likes of Christy Moore, and dare I even mention Daniel O'Donnell or Foster and Allan?
All of the above have helped play a part in popularizing folk music over decades. It was their airtime that probably first encouraged more than a few members here to get interested/involved.

Does anyone take a blind bit of notice of the folk 'police' definition of what may or may not be folk. The limited sample of folk clubs and sessions that I have attended have made no distinction between old and new, other than to recognise the age difference. Does entertainment need to be subjected to the third degree in order to be enjoyed? Some may be interested in the origins, but what grants them a right to inflict their views on others. Most times research can give a series of possible solutions.
There is no guarantee that any of them are correct.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM

" I don't think the above people would be accepted under the 1954? "
I often wonder why it is those who oppse any form of definition are the only ones ever to mention '54 as a rule book - it isn't abd it is a red herring to suggest it is
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:34 PM

"set up by the self appointed self important Folk Music Police."
I thought we weer going to keep insulting out of these arguments
The only "folk police' here are those who try to close arguments by insulting them down
Pack it in please Hoot - no point in asking the other user of the term to do so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM

I thought we were going to keep insulting out of these arguments
So did I and I don't like it - but the one in question is sort of vague and non-specific and it is not directly targetted at anyone.
It is the insults that are clearly directed at a person or persons that the mods will quickly delete.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 02:03 PM

Insulting of any sort is quite likely to get these threads closed
We have already had our fill of 'folk police' directed at individuals in these rec ent discussions to damn well know who they are aimed at
Please try to behave like adults
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 03:22 PM

Jim,

You are doing it again. Did I mention you? It is my belief as you have stated previously that you didn't get into the music until 1966, twelve years after the event which I alluded to.

I don't understand he "abd" in your post is that an abbreviation or just a slip of the fingers?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 04:15 PM

Put very simply some people use their own discretion to decide whether a particular composition is folk music or not. They take great exception to those that would dictate a rigid defintion.
Below are two definitions that to my mind embrace the dichotomy for some and represent the fusion to others.
1)music that originates in traditional popular culture or that is written in such a style. Folk music is typically of unknown authorship and is transmitted orally from generation to generation.

2)The second meaning of "folk music" is a particular genre of music. The roots of this genre are in traditional music, but it is by no means all traditional. ... There are a number of different types of music which can be considered part of folk music, including traditional, acoustic, bluegrass, Celtic, roots, and old-timey.

The two represent a circle that cannot be squared. Therefore there is no point in arguing over it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:03 PM

Jim, you are happy to throw the insult at me, yet you dont like it when others just mention it without mentioning your name. on this forum you behave like a child throwing its toys out of the pram

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:38 PM

Only one person has had an insult deleted by the mods in this thread.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:45 PM

>>>>>The two represent a circle that cannot be squared. Therefore there is no point in arguing over it.<<<<<

It's never stopped 'em before!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:53 PM

I've always had problems using the word 'definition' when it comes to describing genres. The bit in the middle 'finit' relates to the adjective 'finite' which at least implies rigid boundaries that can't be crossed. So all examples of the genre are either 'definitely' inside or outside the 'definition'. I much prefer the Venn diagram approach.

I'm happy to use the 54 descriptors in my research work, but I'm also very happy to use the world-wide commonly accepted idea of what folk music is when discussing it with people who would recognise it, i,e, the vast majority of the planet.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Larry Poole
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 11:17 PM

Bluegrass isnt folk music, but a modern commercial style created by Bill Monroe.
You berate the loss of folk clubs, but no one even knows what they are here in the States.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 02:25 AM

I don't think that Bill Monroe was trying to produce " a commercial style" when he created Bluegrass, he was simply following his musically muse.
The same could be said for many music genres. For example, was Bach thinking commercially when he became one of the main architects of the Baroque movement? Or, Scott Joplin thinking commercially when he "invented" ragtime?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 03:03 AM

"You are doing it again. Did I mention you?"
It doesn't matter who you mentioned Hoot - terms like "folk police" turn intelligent discussions into childish mud-slinging sessions and suppress friendly eexchanges of ideas whether they are aimed at individuals or just ideas they disagree with
I didn't come here to discuss wither your "folk policeman" is bigger than anybody's "snigger snogwriter" - we should be above that level of behaviour
Let's move on eh ?
o individual has to decide what "their" definition of folk song is - we've already got one of them, in spite of the latest fad to attempt to de-define it and lump it in with popular music in general
I've spent the last year or so working on Irish Child Ballads
Some if the ones I have been dealing with were sung by non-literate Travellers who hvae kept them alive for centuries as an essential part of their culture - a way of expressing themselves as human beings
Others were sung by rural dwelling land workers, small farmers and fishermen who carried them through their lives, along with their FOLK STORIES, FOLK MUSIC, FOLK DANCES AND FOLK LORE, and claimed them as their own
At present I am working on a batch taken by starving Irish men and women fleeing The Famine, to America and Canada
Many of these people could hardly read and write, for some, English was their second language, if they spoke it fluently at all - yet they cherished and kept alive centuries old songs and stories, identified them as important and claimed them as their own   
A few years ago I stumbled across the fact that Irish Travellers and rural dwellers in most towns in Ireland made songs in their thousands to record everyday incidents of their lives, from revolution and land wars to local railways and shipwrecks
I have no reason whatever to believe that British people didn't do exactly the same - they were certainly capable of it and had the desire to do so
For me, these identify (if people have problems with the term "define") what folk songs are - what they have always been regarded as - THE SONGS OR THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE
If anybody has a better way of defining "folk" they are entitled to put it (preferably without the childish name-calling) - that's what we are here for (that's what I'm here for anyway).

I have been accused of having a political agenda here - I can think of no greater "agenda" than to rob British people of their having made our folk songs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 03:24 AM

For example, was Bach thinking commercially when he became one of the main architects of the Baroque movement? Or, Scott Joplin thinking commercially when he "invented" ragtime?"

I would suppose that would depend on what Bach's, or Joplin's, full time job was at the time. Now for J.S.Bach we have the following:

Johann Sebastian Bach (31 March 1685 – 28 July 1750) was a German composer and musician of the Baroque period, which spanned from 1600 to 1750. - So he was a full time musician.

For Scott Joplin - Scott Joplin (November 24, 1868 – April 1, 1917) was an African-American composer and pianist. Joplin achieved fame for his ragtime compositions and was dubbed the King of Ragtime. Sometime in the late 1880s he left his job as a railroad laborer and travelled the American South as an itinerant musician. He went to Chicago for the World's Fair of 1893, which played a major part in making ragtime a national craze by 1897. - so another full time musician.

I believe that both in their own way hoped that their "style" in both composition and in performance would guarantee that they, in their own way, stood out from the pack in order to secure their living. Is that commercial?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 03:37 AM

Btw, I love "snogwriter".
Definition: a composer of intimate love songs?
:-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 03:39 AM

The fact that a song was collected from an illiterate in the late 20th century is no evidence at all that it was handed down orally for centuries. Illiterate people know people who can read song texts and staff notation. In the case of notation for instrumental dance tunes, this is a stone cold cert and it's often dead easy to work out which printed editions were involved in the chain of transmission that led to a specific performance learned by ear.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 03:43 AM

tunesmith, Earal scruggs not bill monroe, created a new style of banjo playing which was thumb melody with continous sound [no gaps]. Lynn scruggs whao was a genius at marketing called it bluegrass, after the nickname for kentucky.
Jim you were happy to use the term folk police and direct it at me, you are a man of double standards.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 04:02 AM

Bill was the genius who put it all together.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 04:25 AM

"The fact that a song was collected from an illiterate in the late 20th century is no evidence at all that it was handed down orally for centuries."
Who's talking about the late 20th Century Jack - the oral versions of these songs date fack a century or so earlier than that.
The ones I'm working on now date back to the years following the Irish famine - Burns was collecting songs form Scots peasants earlier than that
Up to the middle of the 19th century literacy was an largely an urban phenomenon and the percentage of people who could read was fairly small
I find the idea of a farmworker going along to the local literate and asking him to interpret the printed words of a song rather.... well!
Travellers were overwhelmingly non-literate and largely outsiders yet they were the most important carriers of our biggest ballads
THe tunes were largely randomly chosen - few ready available printed versions came with tunes
As far as I can make out, the songs that were taken from print (we hae no idea how many were) were given tunes already in use

When push comes to shove, we have no idea who made our folk songs and never will
Our knowledge of the oral tradition dates back only as far as the work done by Sharp and his team, and that is both sparse and gathered at a time when the tradition was being remembered or iften reported from an earlier generation rather than taken down as a living art form
As things stand, we have only common sense as a guide as to who made our folk songs   
It's common sense to me that, rather than the urban, desk-bound hacks (poor poets) working under conveyor-belt conditions having made them, it is far more likely to have been the soldiers, sailors, farm-workers.... rural poor in general that make up the subjects of the songs who were the most likely authors
It took geniuses like Steinbeck, Sinclair and Noonan (Tressell) to write convincing accounts about working life - the hacks with their massed volumes of unsingable songs were as far from that as you could possibly get
If you accept that 'ordinary' people were capable of having made the songs, then you have to concede that they have a far more convincing claim than anybody else

I was extremely patronisingly described as "starry eyed when I quoted MacColl's last moving statement at the end of 'The Song Carriers' series

"Well, there they are, the songs of our people. Some of them have been centuries in the making, some of them undoubtedly were born on the broadside presses. Some have the marvellous perfection of stones shaped by the sea's movement. Others are as brash as a cup-final crowd. They were made by professional bards and by unknown poets at the plough-stilts and the handloom. They are tender, harsh,, passionate, ironical, simple, profound.... as varied, indeed, as the landscape of this island.
We are indebted to the Harry Coxes and Phil Tanners, to Colm Keane and Maggie MaccDonagh, to Belle Stewart and Jessie Murray and to all the sweet and raucous unknown singers who have helped to carry our people's songs across the centuries."

MacColl's view was that of virtually all the folk song scholars, so presumably they were all "starry eyed" too
The accusation was aimed at the entire folk repertoire, from 'Frog and the Mouse' to a Second World War song - it has since been adapted to include only the songs being collected from a dying tradition - doesn't leave me with a great deal of confidence in the accuser, I'm afraid.
MacColl's summing up has been verified for me in thirty odd years field work of interviewing singers who lived through oral singing traditions - I'm happy to continue to accept it until a more rational one is produced
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 04:28 AM

FOLK POLICE????

Anyway, the bottom line is that people can't have it both ways; if, as is often claimed, we still have a living folk tradition, then it is legitimate to identify some of MacColl's songs as 'traditional', even though he never made such a claim. If we don't, it isn't - simple as that.
"Who defines folk?"
The term has been defined and fully accepted by those working on the subject since 1846, when it was first used (and immediately generally accepted) by William John Thoms. The 1954 definition was merely a fine tuning to specifically apply it to song and music (this also was immediately widely accepted by those working in the field).
To date, it has never been re-defined to the satisfaction of those involved. The necessary consensus for re-definition does not exist, so the existing one stands and continues to be documented.
So who gets to define it? Nobody - it's been done
Jim Carroll

"Who defines folk?"
The term has been defined and fully accepted by those working on the subject since 1846, when it was first used (and immediately generally accepted) by William John Thoms. The 1954 definition was merely a fine tuning to specifically apply it to song and music (this also was immediately widely accepted by those working in the field).
To date, it has never been re-defined to the satisfaction of those involved. The necessary consensus for re-definition does not exist, so the existing one stands and continues to be documented.
So who gets to define it? Nobody - it's been done
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 04:56 AM

The fact that a song was collected from an illiterate in the late 20th century is no evidence at all that it was handed down orally for centuries.
Who's talking about the late 20th Century Jack

You were. You were describing songs you'd collected.


the oral versions of these songs date back a century or so earlier than that.

You can only know that if somebody wrote them down - if they stopped being purely oral at that moment.


The ones I'm working on now date back to the years following the Irish famine - Burns was collecting songs form Scots peasants earlier than that

And he published them. In books which sold in enormous numbers and got to the remotest corners of the English-speaking world within 10 years of his death. So everybody everywhere learned his versions. Found a version of "A Red Red Rose" that doesn't derive from his?


Up to the middle of the 19th century literacy was an largely an urban phenomenon and the percentage of people who could read was fairly small

It didn't take many. And we know there were enough to provide a living for itinerant chapbook sellers.


I find the idea of a farmworker going along to the local literate and asking him to interpret the printed words of a song rather.... well!

I can't help your lack of imagination. Anybody who could read the Bible could read a chapbook (though perhaps not all of them would want to). That's not a bunch of elite experts.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 05:26 AM

"You were. You were describing songs you'd collected."
Actually I wasn't - I was describing information we collected, particularly on local song-making, which had all but disappeared
The songs we collected sung by singers who learned them at the beginning of the twentieth century
We know of the existence of an oral tradition as far back as The Venerable Bede - passing songs orally probably predates that
I doubt if the sipngs Burns collected were sokld in enourmous numbers - his own poetry was but Johnson's 'Musical Museum' was somewhat confined in its sales, I would have thought - immaterial anyway
The people Burns Collected his songs from were highly unlikey to have bought them back as, even in Scotland, rural literacy was thin on the ground
One of the pieces we ded gether was from a Traveller ballad seller (the last gasp of the broadside trade) who described taking songs from the oral tradition (his fathers mainly) and reciting them to a printer who then made ballad sheets of them to be sold around the markets of Kerry - an oral tradition in print
I've been told that English farmworkers were far too busy to spendd time making songs, now I'm being told they had time and money to buy broadsides and run around looking for someone to teach them to him
You seem hell bent on wiping out any idea that working people made their songs - I thought I was the one with the "agenda"
Not convinced Jack, and I can't see wy you are
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 05:33 AM

In 1907 Cecil Sharp observed that the transmission of folk songs and the forms they took when they were collected and attested was the result of three factors: continuity, variation, and selection. These factors were expanded on in 1954 by the International Folk Music Council, which wrote that:

    Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.

    The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.

    The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning the re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk-character.

One immediate problem I have here is evolved through the process of oral transmission For the last century at least it would probably more correct to substitute aural for oral. If this is true then variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group becomes a deliberate reinvention. I would suspect the more accurate interpretation may be that words are misheard and the tune is slightly mistaken as the song travels from one person to another. Today when a mobile phone can capture both sound and vision flawlessly how can such evolution of a song/tune occur unless deliberate? This would take away a degree of spontaneity that is sort of implicit in the traditional view of song evolution and make it a deliberate cold blooded massacre of the original.
The 1954 definition takes no account of the impact of modern technology on it's perception of the folk process.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 05:47 AM

I doubt if the sipngs Burns collected were sokld in enourmous numbers - his own poetry was but Johnson's 'Musical Museum' was somewhat confined in its sales, I would have thought - immaterial anyway

I deal with one consequence of that every week - pricing early editions of his works (which always included the songs he collected along with the original stuff). By the time you get to the 1812 editions they're not worth beans.

There is any amount of corroboration that he was a household word all over Britain, Ireland and North America long before the end of the French war. Allusions to his life and work in letters and newspaper articles never needed footnotes. To a lesser extent you could say the same about Tannahill, Campbell, Moore, Dibdin - singable folk-ish poetry got everywhere.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 05:49 AM

I remembered incorrectly when above I said I think the commentary of "Travelling For A Living"refers to 2 or 3 hundred folk clubs " the commentator actually estimates three or four hundred clubs, up and down the country. This is said 12 minutes from the start of the film

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 06:04 AM

Burns was on small collector - you seem to have honed in on him to make a far wider point and ignored everything else that has been said.
Collectors and researchers have never questioned that the fol made their songs - Motherwell even warned about tampering with the songs the people made

If you don't believe the folk made folk songs than you need t say that is what you believe and explain why you hold it
This is shadow-boxing Jack

This, from a newspaper cutting (I thin The daily Express) of around 1960 when the club scene was just beginning to flourish
Jim Carroll

SOME STRANGE FACTS ABOUT THE LATEST CRAZE……
JUST HOW INNOCENT ARE SIGNS LIKE THIS
By PETER BISHOP
A NEW TEENAGE CRAZE IS SWEEPING BRITAIN—FOLK MUSIC. BEARDED, DUFFLE-COATED YOUNGSTERS SQUAT ON THE FLOOR OF CELLAR CLUBS LISTENING TO FOLK SONGS TELLING OF LOVE, OF DEATH, OF OPPRESSION.
There are more than 200 of these clubs in Britain, with 250,000 members. More clubs open every week.
But this boom has some people very worried. For many of the movement's big names—singers, agents or record sellers—are either Communists or they hold extreme left-wing views.
And it is feared that, with folk music attracting more and more young people, there is a danger of their being wooed by Red propaganda. Just how great is that danger? Last week I took a close look at the folk music world.
There is no doubt that the Communist and left-wing element among its leading personalities is powerful.
For example, Topic Records, Ltd., of Hampstead, London, the leading company specialising in folk music, is controlled by a top intellectual Communist.'
He is 62-year-old Alan Bush, a rugged, bearded composer of serious music. His work is familiar and well liked in Russia. He has been there many times as a composer, conductor and as a fraternal; representative at the congress of Communist Composers.
Folk music fans who want to buy the latest records can go to a shop in New Oxford Street specialising in folk songs. It is owned and run by Collet's Holdings, Ltd. Collet's also run several book shops selling left-wing publications.
The company was once described in the Communist "Daily Worker" as a "commercial firm, but not a capitalist one," with its directors taking neither dividends nor profits.
The Folksong Agency, in Paddington, London, represents such top artists in the folk field as Ewan MacColl, Dominic Behan and Peggy Seeger.

'REVOLUTIONARY'
It is run by Bruce Dunnett, a Communist. He told me: "I have been a member of the Communist Party for many years.
"But I can assure you that politics and folk music don't mix.
"There are left revolutionary songs, of course. But then there are also traditional songs, songs of love and songs of protest.
"I am interested only in promoting and developing interest in folk music.
“If I or any other Communist, or Tory for that matter, tried to trot out dogma at a folk music club or concert they would soon tell me to shut up."
Mr. Dunnett agreed that folk music circles have a definite left-wing atmo¬sphere.
"That is because most folk songs have been, and are even now being, created by ordinary working people," he said.
The biggest name among folk singers in Britain is Ewan MacColl, a. bearded ex- playwright from Salford, Lancs, and a Communist,   
He sings in clubs up and down the country on such themes as the sad Irish workmen who laboured on the Ml, and on Timothy. Evans, the man hanged for a murder which some people; believe he did not commit.

CANDLELIGHT
MacColl, aged 45, told me: “Of course there are Communists and left-wing people who go to folk-song clubs.
"But then there are also Tories, Socialists, and Liberals. They go to listen to the music, not politics.
"They are inclined to tie in¬dividualistic, who would make known their objections if they thought attempts were being made to organise them politically or any other way."
Another folk singer is Karl Dallas. He specialises in the guitar and contributes articles to the "Daily Worker."
Now let's take a look at one of the clubs. The 200-strong Swindon Folksingers Club is run by, Ted Poole, aged 37, and his wife, Ivy. Mr. Poole is a Communist. He told me:
"The music we sing is left-wing because it comes from the workers.
"Most of the songs reflect the thoughts, emotions, oppres¬sions, passions and struggles of the working peoples."
The club meets on Friday nights in a candle-lit room at the rear of the Greyhound, Hotel, Swindon. It costs 2s. 6d. to join and admission to sessions is 3s.—non-members 4s
Mr. Poole added: “There is no sinister political motive in the background."
Finally, I talked to 42-year-old Eric Winter, folk singer, journalist, authority on folk music, and editor of a lively folk song magazine called "Sing."    .
He told me: "It's true to say that folk music and the clubs have a strong left-wing atmosphere.
"Many people who enjoy folk music are anti-Bomb, anti-apartheid, anti most things
“They’re not sure what they are for- but they would resent any attempt to introduce politics of any sort.”
So even if the Communist Party is contemplating a planned program to recruit from the folk-singing fans, it seems they will be out of luck.
BUT CLEARLY, IT IS A SITUATION WHICH NEEDS WATCHING

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 09:26 AM

The point is not who made them (which is often unknowable and not a very interesting question) but how they were transmitted. You are saying that print never figured in the process. I am saying that it almost always did; that songs moved to and fro between oral transmission and paper. Steve Gardham has documented the process quite thoroughly - you can trace features in orally collected songs which have to have gone through a known printed version.

For tunes, Dunlay and Greenberg's book on Cape Breton fiddle music goes into the sources quite well. So does Alois Fleischmann's "Sources of Irish Traditional Music", though he's less interested in tracing through the whole process.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM

Jack Campin said : "The point is not who made them (which is often unknowable and not a very interesting question)"

Are you saying that knowing something about the person who wrote a folksong is " not a very interesting question"?
Surely, not.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 10:02 AM

"and not a very interesting question"
Not to you maybe - I think that, if they are to be recognised as 'The Voice of the People' it is pretty important to have some idea as of whether 'the people' wrote them or not
That may not interest you - it does me.

"You are saying that print never figured in the process."
Where did I ever say that ?
I've just described exactly how print figured in the process by the Travellers trade of ballad selling
Steve Gardham has produced earliest printed versions which says nothing whatever about whether they existed before those dates
Some of the ballad motifs occur in Homer we recorded a Cante-fable which echoes a tale dating back to Ancient Egypt, The Constant Farmer's Son/Bramble Briar features as one of Boccaccio's Tales, Lord Gregory has been linked to Chaucer and Lord Bateman to Thomas Becket's father
I these stories have been around that long, there is no reason why they shouldn't have existed as songs
MacColl includes Broadsides as a method of both distribution and creation - I have no argument with that
What I do have an issue with is to what extent.
teve Gardham has now arrived at his late 19th century dating - had he do so in the first place I would have no great is with it though I may quibble about the percentages
He has admitted that the oral tradition/broadside transmission/creation claim is a two-way street I can only see one-way traffic
We simply don't know definitively and can only make an educated guess based on what little we do have and the work of previous researchers, including those who were in the position to find out whether the songs they were researching originated on the then active broadside presses - Child's "diamonds in a dunghill" statement made it clear where he stood
The distressing thing about the new crowd is that they have set about dismantling and debunking he pioneers to fit their own idea in - a process started by the once discredited Dave Harker   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 10:20 AM

You are saying that print never figured in the process.
Where did I ever say that ?

Here:

I've spent the last year or so working on Irish Child Ballads
Some if the ones I have been dealing with were sung by non-literate Travellers who hvae kept them alive for centuries

You're implying transmission was entirely oral.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 10:35 AM

"You're implying transmission was entirely oral"
Really? What about the word "some"?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM

Thanks tunesmith
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM

'I'm sorry officer...'

'I wonder if you realise back there you were going Ralph McTell miles an hour in a Ewan MacColl restricted zone. Youg feller me lad, you could have caused a nasty accident causing death or serious injury to innocent folk traditions....'

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM

The people Burns Collected his songs from were highly unlikey to have bought them back as, even in Scotland, rural literacy was thin on the ground

Not so. One of the greatest benefits of overthrowing the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland's Reformation was the establishment at the insistence of the new Presbyterian Church, of schools in every parish in every village and town. These schools were free and open to all. By the turn of the 17th century Scotland, as far as its general population went was the most literate country in Europe.

Quite a number of songs written by Burns were written to save pipe tunes which due to the times could so easily have disappeared forever. He also sometimes adapted local stories for the lyrics of the songs put to these.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 12:40 PM

Happy to accept your word on that Guest Don't think it changes my general point though
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 01:23 AM

though I may quibble about the percentages."
you are a regular quibbler.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:48 AM

Quite a number of songs written by Burns were written to save pipe tunes which due to the times could so easily have disappeared forever. He also sometimes adapted local stories for the lyrics of the songs put to these.

That's not true. Burns got his tunes from published sources - he didn't need to write the tune down when sending a song to a publisher, he could just name it and the publisher could easily find it. I don't think there is any song in his entire output that used a Highland pipe tune - the pipe tunes he did use were Lowland ones also current as song airs or fiddle tunes.

He also didn't use rare tunes. He generally picked currently fashionable ones: it made sense to ride the wave when something like "Miss Admiral Gordon's Strathspey" was being played everywhere.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM

I started going to folk clubs around 1970, when I was still at school. At that time I lived in Essex, and in addition to the Chelmsford club referred to in Hagman's list, there was also a club in Brentwood (run by Geoff and Pennie Harris) and a singers' club at Blackmore. Later a club started up at Margaretting. There were one or two other fairly shortlived clubs, including "contemporary folk" club in Brentwood. My school had its own folk club in partnership with a couple of other nearby schools, which was where I first began performing. I could easily visit at least three clubs a week, and several more with a little more effort.

Despite the concerns expressed about "left-wing indoctrination" I was aware of very little political activity and most people were interested in singing traditional songs rather than ones addressing modern social issues.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 06:38 AM

Howard
Unfortunately (maybe) politics of one sort or another goes through both traditional song and the revival as 'Blackpool' goes through rock - the very idea of a 'Voice of the People' is a politico/social statement in itself
The few patriotic songs in the repertoire are poltical statements in favour of the status quo
Our poaching and transportation songs are responses to the enclosures, songs of social misalliance are statements on class differences
The ballad, Tifitie's Annie reflects the changes being wrought when the power of the gentry was being replaced by that of the merchant class...
While not commenting on these situations,they certainly reflect them - some of the singers had no illusions of how political they were
Harry Cox sang 'Betsy the Serving Maid' for Lomax and spat out, "And that's what they thought of us - worthless"

The revival was largely set into motion by politicos, first the Workers Music Association (which later established Topic), Lloyd, MacColl, Henderson... even Luke Kelly wore his politics on his sleeve
It's as hard to separate the early revival from C.N.D. as it is the Civil Rights Movement from its songs
The earliest songs published are the largely anonymous ones to be in Thomas Wright's 'Political Songs of England from the reign of John to that of Edward II
MacColl, Seeger, Rossleson and the rest weer borrowing from a very old tradition to make their songs
I think the problem sometimes is that they disapprove of the "wrong type of political songs".
You want to see political songs at their most effective, try Terry Moylan's magnificent 'The Indignant muse'
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 07:16 AM

Howard,there were two clubs in Brentwood, the second was not as you describe contemporary, this was at the railway, i used to sing there regularly and i sang trad unaccompanied material, i never saw you there ever, i met you first at chelmsford, there was also a club at havering , where i booked yourself, nic jones,doloreskeane and john faulkner, colin cater tom mconville bob fox, all trad, but the booking policy was mixed

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 10:29 AM

Was there not a club at The Castle at Brentwood?

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 10:36 AM

@Sandman
I think you are a bit out on the timeline.

The club at The Railway was earlier, I think it had already folded when I first went to Brentwood Folk Club as a teenager in 68. Certainly nobody ever mentioned it as a place to go. The "contemporary" club ran at the Arts Centre in the 70s.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM

Ray
That was the club that Howard mentioned, run by Geoff and Pennie around 1970 and previously by Nic Jones,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 01:40 PM

Do you know. I stopped visiting Mudflap for a long time, due largely to the type pettiness which has sprung up in this thread.
Sadly having decided to return a bit more often, I find the the same people seem to be flaunting the same chips on the same shoulders as they always have.
FFS get a grip, and either grow up or take your inability to see anybody else's point of view, somewhere where it doesn't impinge on ordinary decent folkies.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM

If you can't discuss folk song on Mudcat where can you discuss it - or maybe we shouldn't and go with the flow?
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 02:48 PM

There's discussing folk song, and then there's pontificating, not to mention the inability to admit that someone else might have a valid point. It's not so much the discussion, it's the puerile tone of it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:03 PM

"There's discussing folk song, and then there's pontificating
No John
There's discussing and there's standing on the sidelines telling others what they should and shouldn't be discussing
Join in or don't - you can't have it both ways
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:08 PM

Isn't it strange that those who shout "folk police" loudest are quite of those who fit the description best ?
Maybe not !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:32 PM

John Mackenie wrote:-
Do you know. I stopped visiting Mudflap for a long time, due largely to the type pettiness which has sprung up in this thread.

I see this as a real problem on Mudcat. It seems to me that there are fewer people posting on Mudcat than there used to be. I know that I post much more rarely than I used to. I reckon that if I were to leave Mudcat for half a year and then came back, then before logging on I could predict who would be saying what about who actually wrote the folk songs in the first place, about the niceties of definition and who was feeling insulted by who and why. Circumlocutive exchanges from entrenched positions would continue to prevent resolution of discussions.

Meanwhile we would be six months further down the road to Global Warming Armageddon and we still could not be sure which songwriter's compositions were acceptable in folk clubs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:43 PM

That's what I just can't get to the bottom of, Vic. Why are some contemporary compositions acceptable while some are not? Who gets to decide which is which? If folk clubs are non prescriptive, who enforces what is acceptable? And if it sounds like folk, looks like folk and smells like folk, what the **** does it matter who wrote it anyway?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 04:04 PM

I went to folk clubs that everybody seems to have forgotten.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 04:04 PM

I went to folk clubs that everybody seems to have forgotten.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 04:45 PM

Folk festival do not seem to be doinmg as well as they used to

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 05:28 PM

And if it sounds like folk, looks like folk and smells like folk, what the **** does it matter who wrote it anyway?

Seems reasonable to me! Surely the boundary between country and folk is also a very amorphous one. The transatlantic sessions would not have worked unless the two were intimately linked.
For example the STREETS OF LAREDO and https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=22885

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM

All this faffing and bullying and not one single response to the fact that the clubs that cater for genuine folk song are fighting for breath (except we are all dying off - probably right of course, but an indication of failure)
EFDSS has walked away from the real thing, the New age researchers have decided we got we wrng or made it all up, plenty of insults and a few excuses
Confirmation enough, I think and not particularly hopeful
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 06:56 PM

Incidentally - in response to the decades old thread - nobody defined folk - it defines itself by its very nature - the clue is oin two wotrds "traditional" - a process that creates and ploriferates folk song; and "folk" - the people who made it and passed it on
Plenty of books on the subject and enough genuine folk singers on record as having described what we are talking about.
Those who don't know what it is don't want to - nothing much you can do about that
G'night all
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Hagman
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 07:56 PM

From Jim's post above:

"SOME STRANGE FACTS ABOUT THE LATEST CRAZE…… JUST HOW INNOCENT ARE SIGNS LIKE THIS By PETER BISHOP
...
There are more than 200 of these clubs in Britain, with 250,000 members."

So, on average, each club had 1,250 members?

Either the rooms above pubs in those days were really big, or newspaper sub-editing in 1960 was just as bad as it is today.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:02 AM

Sorry to labour the point, Jim, but if you say things like "clubs that cater for genuine folk song are fighting for breath" you need to be consistent about what genuine folk song is. You have said yourself that Ewan MacColl did not write folk songs so anything by him cannot be a 'genuine folk song'. Yet you say his songs are acceptable in folk clubs. If his songs are acceptable then other contemporary songs are as well. I ask once again, who decides what is acceptable and what is not?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:21 AM

Hagman
It was an politically agenda-based article reflecting the suspicion of the establishment media towards a strongly independent musical movement that in those days couldn't be controlled or trusted - happy days, as far as I'm concerned.
I have no doubt those figures were arrived at with minimal effort and by someone with total ignorance or interest of either the scene or the music it once represented
The idea that 'ordinary people' (no such animal) could actually put their own thoughts and aspirations into verse must have sent them scurrying shitless for their shotguns and bullet-proof vests
My late friend, Charles Parker, once put it in a nutshell - "A traditional love song well sung is a fist in the face of the establishment"

Now, it seems, many of today's folkies measure success by how many times they appear on the establishment media or how many CDs they can sell or how many paid gigs they can get - not a happy situation for what was once a fresh, new grass-roots movement based on the idea that anybody can sing and our music was as good as any ever produced, if not better

In my opinion, a half decent history of the folk revival has yet to be written
Mike Brocken's effort is far too one-sided and based on gossip rather than researched facts
'Singing From the floor' I found skimpy and, based on my own experiences, superficial and inaccurate
A radio programme on the history of Topic Records, 'Little Red Label' was summed up in one magnificent statement, "Ewan MacColl" (the singer who composed up to three hundred songs, and probably far more) "didn't like new songs".
A knowledgeable but detached history of the revival, such as Peter Cox's history of the Radio Ballads, 'Set Into Song', would help enormously clear up many of the myths, misunderstandings and ill-feeling surrounding who did and didn't do what when....
I've just been given an excellent embryo article on the early days of the folk revival by a friend - I look forward with some interests to see the reception it will get
I can already see the crucifixes, holy water and garlic being got ready
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:40 AM

"you need to be consistent about what genuine folk song is. "
I've already done that Dave
I have never at any time said that genuine folk song can't exist alongside songs created by using folk styles as a template - in fact I have repeatedly said I believe it to be essential
I see no reason on earth why someone who can listen to 'The Flying Cloud' with pleasure can't get equal enjoyment out of say, 'Shellback' or 'The Tenant Farmer' or Leon Rossleson's 'World Turned Upside Down'
On the other hand, it is totally beyond me why traditional songs should be lumped in with poor renditions of Buddy Holly or early sentimantal tear-jerkers - or anything anybody cares to hang the 'folk' label on for personal convenience   
If you give your music a name, that name has to mean something or not only are you conning the punters but you are destroying the future of the real thing (as is becoming increasingly apparent)

The separation of traditional and non-traditional song is not necessary for the clubs (as long as they relate to one another in some way) but it is essential for research purposes
I do both - I take great pleasure in singing and listening to folk or folk-related songs and always have, but I am also deeply interested in the role that the folk arts played in the social history of the British and Irish people
I need to be able to recognise and understand the differences between the two if I am going to be able to discuss my beliefs and finding with others
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 04:48 AM

Now, about this 60's folk club boom mentioned in the title of this thread.
Was that the one where we all sang Tom Paxton, Bob Dylan and Ewan MacColl? Or was it the mythical one, where we all sang Thousands or More,and the Trimdon Grange Explosion, endlessly?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

As I have said before, I first saw Ralph McTell perform streets of london" in the Surbiton Assembly Rooms.
Proclaimed to be the largest folk club in the UK(23000 members at the time it closed)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:15 AM

"Was that the one where we all sang Tom Paxton, Bob Dylan and Ewan MacColl? "
You may have done - we sand MacColl, Enoch Kent, Pete Smith, Miles Wooton... and all the other dozens of writers composing using trditional styles
The Paxtonites and Dylanites had little time for our songss and we weren't particularly impressed with theirs so they set up their clubs and we set up ours - no animosty particularly, just a mutual agreement that we were doing something different
I wentt ot both for a time till the reall stuff began to occupy most of my time and pleasure
Now both have been swept aside by the 'singing horses' and electric soup crowd
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:21 AM

Jim, the choice is not between the obvious folk style and the obvious non-folk style. There are plenty of songs and artists that are somewhere in between Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly. It is not as black and white as you suggest. There are grey areas in between and it is those that I am questioning. Who decides which is acceptable at folk clubs and which is not? There cannot be an arbitrary line between the two that suits all people so help us out here. What side of the divide do artists like Ralph McTell, Eric Bogle and Anthony John Clarke fall on? Should their songs be sung in folk clubs or not and why?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:24 AM

I saw Ralph at Surbiton too Iain. I was booked there once (only once you'll not be surprised to hear) and was one of the residents in latter days, along with Hector Gilchrist.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM

Thanks Dick, I'd forgotten about the Railway. I remember going to a club near Brentwood station to see Vin Garbutt, was that the one? I don't recall while I didn't go there more often.

Your excellent club at Havering was just outside my normal radius so although I visited fairly frequently I was not a regular. I'd thought of this club as one of the others I could reach with a little more effort. i remember also sometimes going to clubs in Romford, Upminster and Southend.

The point I was trying to illustrate was that at that time there was a host of clubs in that area. Between them they offered a full range of music across the whole spectrum of "folk", and there were plenty of opportunities to hear traditional music. The standards were usually reasonably high, and no matter how tiny the room (I'm particularly thinking of Blackmore) floor singers were expected to come to the stage to do their bit. Good days.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

Jim I agree with much of what you say about politics in folk song. Even the songs which are simply about love, work or bloody murder shed some light on social conditions and can be interpreted in a political way. However not everyone sees things through a permanent political prism and many people simply enjoy the songs for their own sake.

It is also a matter of history that the revival in its early days was particularly driven by people who were politically active, and for whom folk music was part of their activism - hence the slightly hysterical "reds under the bed" article someone quoted earlier. You have written about groups you were involved with where the politics were as important as the music. However at the clubs I visited politics as such were seldom openly expressed. I have no idea of the political views of most of the people who attended these clubs, even though I got to know many of them well. We were there for the music.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 06:08 AM

"Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly"
Sorry Dave - I can see little point in continuing this discussion when we are so far apart
Th two bear bear no relation to each other and there is no common ground between them
One is commercial based and manufactured for sale, the other is narrative based and intended to carry emotions, experiences and opinions
No reason you can't 'like' both (I used to) but they are as different as chalk and cheese and mixing them is bound to damage both
You may as well say that because peol,e like and sing light opera thnn if as a viable candidate for folk song venues
Are you saying that - if not, why not ?

Howard, I was interested in your comments on floor singers - my experience to
Everybody-gets-a-go singarounds were new kids on the block on my scene - you weer expected to have put in the effort before you were lel loose on an audience - fair both on them and you - who enjoys making an arsehole of yourself in public
The number of times I've don that I want to forget
You can strut you stuff among friends without having them make the effort to come out to see you - informal singing can be an incredible way of developing your skills given the good will and ability to discuss your performances
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 06:53 AM

Jim, you have misconstrued what I actually said once again. I am not comparing the two. Read my post. What I said is There are plenty of songs and artists that are somewhere in between Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly. It is not as black and white as you suggest. I know that the two bear no relation to each other. That is the point. I am looking at the artists that lie between the two and asking where do you draw the line.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:27 AM

Dave wrote:-
It is not as black and white as you suggest. There are grey areas in between and it is those that I am questioning. Who decides which is acceptable at folk clubs and which is not? There cannot be an arbitrary line between the two that suits all people so help us out here.

Breakfast time in the Smith house, some time in the early 1970s. Sitting at the table are Vic and Bert Lloyd - he has sung at our folk club the evening before. Vic had been outlining his confusion about what exactly constitituted a folk song and what didn't. His points closely resembled what he has just quoted from Dave. Bert's reply was an analogy that Vic remembers clearly more than 45 years later.

"Look out of your window. I think that we can agree that it is daytime. If we were still sitting here at 10 o'clock tonight, we would look out of the window and agree that it was nighttime. However if you were to ask a hundred people to nominate the exact moment when day became night, you would get a hundred different answers. It is the same with the 'What is folk song?' question.

Wouldn't it be great if we could just embrace Bert's Vive la différence stance? But this is Mudcat so we cannot.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly"
Sorry Dave - I can see little point in continuing this discussion when we are so far apart
Th two bear bear no relation to each other and there is no common ground between them
One is commercial based and manufactured for sale, the other is narrative based and intended to carry emotions, experiences and opinions

Would anyone know if there is any way of comparing the amounts of money earned from their songwriting of both Charles Hardin Holley of Lubbock, Texas and James Henry Miller of Salford, Lancashire, both before and after their deaths? If we were to have those figures then we would know which had made the most money (i.e. were the most commercial) by researching the facts rather than belief based on unsupported personal preference.
My guess would be that the amounts earned by both these excellent songwriters, both great favourites of mine, would not differ by a great amount.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:49 AM

You have to be joking Vic (even if it was material)
Ewan and Peg kept head above water with occasional tours - apart from First Time Ever which came late in life and was a total surprise, the royalties they got from songs was minimal
After Ewan died Peggy gave me a tape of 'First Time' recorded by 'pop names' - they had receive payment for less than half of them
Tey didn't write songs to make money - most of which made zilch
Immaterial - the songs appeal to different people for different reasons
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:51 AM

Thanks, Vic. I'm glad the esteemed Mr Lloyd agrees :-) I am more than happy to embrace the difference but, as you say, this is the Mudcat after all!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:12 AM

they had receive payment for less than half of them
Sadly this is an all too common experience amongst songwriters of all genres and stages of fame. Then there are the well documented occurrences of artists approaching songwriters to say that they would record their song providing the composing rights were split 50/50 with the singer. I've even seen a letter sent to a songwriting friend of mine which brazenly stated, "After all, a half of something is better than a whole of nothing!" Sad to say, he accepted the offer.
All business tends to be dirty and full of crooks, but the music business is well up near the top of the list.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:15 AM

Incidentally,
"James Henry Miller"
The use of a name officially changed by a leading contributor to our understanding and enjoyment of an important branch of the arts nearly seven decades ago - three decades after the singers death, for me sums up the small-minded spite and in-fighting that has often made the revival the unpleasant place it has become - are we now going to have to include Robert Zimmerman in our discussions (why do I doubt it)?
What next - Ethel Gumm and Archie leach maybe ?
It really is time the folk scene embraced adulthood
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM

I tried an internet searches for "royalty earnings of..." both singers in question and, perhaps understandably, neither threw up any figures and only in the case of Holly were there any significant hits. There were a number of sites detailing how the inexperienced young Texan had been ripped of by the big record labels. The stories are horrific if not unexpected.
A quote from one said, Holly only received 16 2/3s percent of the songwriter royalties from The Crickets first hit, “That’ll Be the Day.” when it was well known that he wrote both the lyrics and the melody.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:32 AM

You keep doing this, Jim. You latch onto one small part of a post and use it as a straw man. You used my 'Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly' entirely our of the context in which they were mentioned and you have now zoomed in on one small section of Vic's 'Charles Hardin Holley of Lubbock, Texas and James Henry Miller of Salford, Lancashire'. Everyone knows who both are just as they know who Robert Zimmerman, Harry Webb and Reginald Kenneth Dwight are. Buggered if I know Ethel Gumm though.

Alexa, who is...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:34 AM

and tolerance

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:45 AM

Can you explain why mentioning the birth names of Archie Leach, Robert Zimmerman, James Henry Miller, Ethel Gumm and Charles Hardin Holley can be construed as "small-minded spite and in-fighting that has often made the revival the unpleasant place it has become"?

The two birth names that I mentioned were given in the context of recording royalty contracts and I imagine that those were the names that - legally - were likely to appear on those contracts. When my wife is asked to sign any document with "Christine Margaret" as the forenames, she has to pause before she signs it and realises that it refers to her because she has been "Tina" since she was a baby.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:28 AM

"You keep doing this, Jim."
Keep doing what Dave - I have challenged you on majotr points and you persistently ignore them take up incidental points yourself
My points are these
Folk song has been regarded a peoples creative art for well over a century
It has been identified, researched and documented and defined as being distinct from all other art forms -
it is unique both in its origins and its sound - easily recognisable
By many/most, it is regarded as a carrier of social history
It comes from a time when people weer active participants in their culture rather than the passive recipients they have become - the makers and re-makers of their songs and music
The fact that it is in the public domain is indication enough of its recognised uniqueness....
Given all this, you argue for lumping it in with commercially manufactured pop songs that have long outlived their shelf life (totally neglecting to even mention the damage and confusion that this has generated on the folk scene)
I referred to it because you brought it up, but Buddy Holly isn't by any means the only one to feature in many fok club performances
I was at a folk concert in Scotland a few years ago when a singer whose singing I enjoy immensely sent the evening crashing in flames by finishing it off with two Cliff Richards numbers - as good as the night was, those are he songs that stick in my memory - a spectacular anti-climax to an otherwise highly enjoyable evening   
Do you know any other art form that would tolerate such bahavour ?
Imagine an evening of Mozart String Quartets being topped off with a couple of Scott Joplin numbers
I love both - in their place - when I go out in the evening I expect to be afforded the choice of what I listen to otherwise I might as well stay at home and listen to may own collection - which, I believe many thousands of folk enthusiasts have long been doing

Vic
MacColl changed his name by deed poll many decades ago - he had his reasons for doing so
hat is the name he operated under and has been long racognised by - it's only crumblies like us who know why Jimmy Miller was over half a century ago, yet his name is still used, along with his war record and a song he made when a large slice of the world people revered the man he was singing about - the world has moved on - some of us haven't it would appear
I don't give a toss whether people share my liking for MacColl and his singing
What I do care about is he fact that MacColl and his co-researchers left an invaluable body of work on folk singing that is nigh near impossible to discuss without having to scramble over this almost impassable heap of personalised garbage
'Tina', 'Jim', 'Vic', 'Dave' are friendly diminutives of real names, Jimmy Miller died sometime in the 1940s yet his name still pops up three decades after Ewan MacColl's death - about time that was put to res too, doncha think ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:33 AM

Meant to ask John - what are we supposed to tolerate ?
I mt opinion he 'singing horse' approach to folk song has all but killed off the clubs where you could go and hear folk songs
Singers on this forum have described feeling out of place when singing unaccompanied traditional songs
Not so long ago a contribute complained that long traditional ballads weer inappropriate" in the folk clubs he was trying to organise a tour in
Is that what we are expected to tolerate ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:45 AM

Gasps of horror on the folk scene and Mudcat!!!!!
Jim, actually has a point, in most of what he has just posted. Leaving aside the personal bickering and the references to birth names which are pretty pointless anyway if you think about it.

Traditional songs in particular are indeed in the most part quite different beasts to those produced during the second revival by the likes of Ewan and all those who followed in his wake. They have evolved in a different way in an enormously different era with different influences.

The 54 descriptors are perfectly good as long as you don't throw around thoughtless words like 'unique'. To be 'unique' every song would have to be one side of the fence or the other and this is daft.

The other meaning of folksong, the one 99% of the population uses, is much broader, but perfectly valid. Most of it hasn't gone through any of the processes described in '54' so cannot qualify for that meaning. That doesn't make it any less valid.

In the 60s and since, most reasonable people have used the adjectives 'traditional' and 'contemporary' to describe these 2 different beasts, both types widely included and accepted on the 'folk scene'.

Now what went wrong on Mudcat that produced about a trillion posts arguing the toss?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM

Keep doing what Dave Quoting out of context. As you just did then :-) I explained fully and if you had quoted the full section

You keep doing this, Jim. You latch onto one small part of a post and use it as a straw man. You used my 'Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly' entirely our of the context in which they were mentioned and you have now zoomed in on one small section of Vic's 'Charles Hardin Holley of Lubbock, Texas and James Henry Miller of Salford, Lancashire'.

I am sure you could have answered the question yourself.

Your other points are quite valid apart from Given all this, you argue for lumping it in with commercially manufactured pop songs that have long outlived their shelf life which is something I have never done. I have challenged you before to show us where I have done this. You failed to do so then and I know you will fail again this time because I have never made that claim.

I have always said that both traditional and contemporary songs can be sung at the same club and I fully appreciate that not all contemporary songs would be suitable. Just as not all traditional songs would be suitable for a 'non folk' audience. What I am desperately trying to get out of you is the answer to my question as to where the line should be drawn. Which contemporary songs are acceptable and which are not.

You are missing the point altogether with the Ewan and Buddy statement so let me try and put it another way. We all know that Ewan's songs are acceptable while Buddy's songs are not. There are literally millions of songs between those two extremes. Which of those can be sung at folk clubs and which can not. Who decides which to accept into the annals of folk and which to reject? I suspect it is the audience that have the ultimate say but I am interested in what other people think.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:02 AM

"Jim, actually has a point, in most of what he has just posted. "
Is there any need fro this nastiness Steve
My world was one were we cooperated and shared our ideas and not tried to talk each other down
Dave Harker seems to have left his nasty hand-prints over today's scene
I still don't understand why '54' should be an issue with the new age researchers while most of us old school hardly refer to it
Of course our folk songs are unique - those who think otherwise simply haven't been listening
Nothing like 99% of the population know, care or ever refer to folk song (there go those mythical percentages again) - one of our great failings
"Traditional and contemporary" had its uses even though it didn't stand close examination
We had Traveller singers refusing to sing fifty year old Country and Western songs because the were not 'the old songs' but wite happy to describe Traveller-made songs composed within a year or so of their being made because they considered them traditional artifacts of their culture
All irrelevant to this discussion anyway - we seem to have a revival that prefers Taylor Swift to Joseph Taylor
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:08 AM

i have never heard of taylor swift, but howe many people other than Martin Carthy champion, JosephTaylor

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:09 AM

Any sensible performer wanting to please his/her/their audience would tailor their set to what they think the audience would want to hear. Personally I wouldn't want to sing a 20 verse ancient ballad to a general non-folk audience, unless they were expecting something unusual.
I mostly sing in popular singarounds nowadays, unless booked, and I tailor my songs initially for variety, and dependent on what has just been sung before my turn comes around. Because there is usually a number of visitors there I'll try to sing some well-known songs they can join in with, or something obviously entertaining in other ways.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:19 AM

"I have always said that both traditional and contemporary songs can be sung at the same club a"
Isn't this what I have been saying all along Dave - could have swoen I've said it repeatedly
It depends on how they relate to one another - or even if they do,
****** if I can see how Buddy Holly et al fits into all this
Imagine what would happen if you got a bunch of pop fans turning up and being given a night of ballads and narrative songs
The genres not are not only miles apart in their utterances contradict one other - easy listening to attention demanding
Throw in poorly performed pop songs and you've lost them forever
I sometimes think this drive to pass off dead pop songs as 'folk' has more to do with elderly folkies trying to relive their youths raher than artistic reality
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:25 AM

"how many people other than Martin Carthy champion, Joseph Taylor"
Quite true Dick - and thereby hangs the problem
In my world everybody knew who he was and what he sang - and Sam - and Harry - and Walter- and Cecilia.... and the rest
I remember being involved in one of these arguments with someone who thought John Strachan was a Scottish footballer - maybe he was, but the one I was referring to was the great Scots ballad singer   
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:30 AM

So, we are agreed that contemporary songs are welcome at folk clubs. That is one bridge crossed. Now, how about the next one.

Which contemporary songs are acceptable, which are not, who decides and how?

Forget Buddy Holly if he just confusing you. His name, along with Ewan MacColl's was only being used to illustrate the different types of contemporary songs anyway.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM

Vic Smith wrote:

"Breakfast time in the Smith house, some time in the early 1970s. Sitting at the table are Vic and Bert Lloyd - he has sung at our folk club the evening before. Vic had been outlining his confusion about what exactly constitituted a folk song and what didn't. His points closely resembled what he has just quoted from Dave. Bert's reply was an analogy that Vic remembers clearly more than 45 years later.

"Look out of your window. I think that we can agree that it is daytime. If we were still sitting here at 10 o'clock tonight, we would look out of the window and agree that it was nighttime. However if you were to ask a hundred people to nominate the exact moment when day became night, you would get a hundred different answers. It is the same with the 'What is folk song?' question."

He said much the same in the documentary

A portrait of folk singer A.L. Lloyd by Barry Gavin at 48:20

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:47 AM

"So, we are agreed that contemporary songs are welcome at folk clubs."
Only if they relate - there's has never been an argument about that Dave
About a third of my repertoire is made up of contemporary songs
It's pop songs past their sell-by date and Victorian tear-jerkers I have problem with
The sound and function of the songs is the deciding factor for me - any evening requires a homogeneous whole if it is going to hang together and satisfy those who attend
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:49 AM

Jim,
    Although this point strays from the thread subject, surely a song about a disaster or event that happened many years ago or about an historic, notorious character and was written at that time is in good company with any newly composed song that relates to modern events. Disasters are disasters. I have a tape somewhere with Martin Carthy singing about the Falklands War and I hope he continues to perform contemporary songs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:59 AM

I remember being involved in one of these arguments with someone who thought John Strachan was a Scottish footballer - maybe he was, but the one I was referring to was the great Scots ballad singer

I hope I may be permitted to say that they were both the same person. The farmer and ballad singer John Strachan who sang at the first People's Ceilidh in Edinburgh in 1951 and judging by the reception that he received on the recordings of the event by Alan Lomax was outstandingly well received by an enthusiatic audience was in his younger days also a semi-pro footballer in the Highland League.
And taking this diversion of what Stuart Hall called "The Beautiful Game" in 1958 a stage further.....

When was the first live radio commentary on a football game?
1927
Who were the teams and where was it played?
Aberdeen V. Glasgow Celtic played at Pittodrie Stadium
What was the result?
Aberdeen won 2-0
And who was the commentator?
Yes! It was the same..... John Strachan!
No recording obviously, but wouldn't I have loved to have heard John's rich Doric Aberdonian language - very similar to my grandmother's - describing a football match.
...and wasn't the previous matter resolved by the admission that there had been a confusion between John Strachan and one of Scotland's greatest footballers, Gordon Strachan?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:59 AM

Yes, I fully understand that, Jim. I think you may have answered my question with

The sound and function of the songs is the deciding factor for me - any evening requires a homogeneous whole if it is going to hang together and satisfy those who attend

It is the sound and function for you. Others may think differently.

I am no longer a folk club organiser but when I was we had a fairly successful club. It still is but that is beside the point. If I was still organiser there and wanted to keep my core audience, attract new members and satisfy the needs of a very important visitor, Mr Jim Carroll, what contemporary songs should I showcase and which should I avoid? No need for specifics and take it as read that you don't want anything that has been in the pop charts. What generic sound and function does the trick?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 11:46 AM

"I hope I may be permitted to say that they were both the same person."
Didn't know that Vic - thanks
I'd always assumed he was talking about Gordon Strachan
THe proof of the pudding lies in the eating - if you can think you can lure young people into folk clubs with badly performed and out of date pop songs mixed in with narrative songs that require attention if they are going to work good luck with that one (from what I've seen of your club from your links, it doesn't seem to have worked there
I believe, based on personal experience, that the removal of the identity of folk songs from the folk clubs drove thousands of us away from the scene and led to the dreadful contusion that surrounds the term 'folk'

John
"is in good company with any newly composed song that relates to modern events."
Of course they are and very welcome, but I can think of no pop songs that do so
The songs that did work and fit in perfectly for me were ones like 'The Hull Trawler Disaster' or 'Grey October', or Guthrie's 'Deportees', or Jack Warshaw's 'Grape Picker's Tragedy' or, on a lesser scale, Pete Smith's'Clayton Aniline' - or even the anonymous Munich air disaster song, 'Flowers of Manchester'... many songs of this ilk were regularly performed in our clubs and welcomed with open arms - I sang several of them myself
We have a friend living in our market Town, who is a member of one the great dynasties of traditional singers - a household name
He came to our house a few years ago to discuss some of his songs with a view to making a CD - Pat and I were moved almost to tears to hear his own composition about a refugee fleeing the incredibly nasty situation in former Yugoslavia
He recently told me of his admiration for MacColl's 'Fields of Vietnam' (I suspect he was drawn to it because Ewan used Robert Cinnamon's beautiful epic-sounding air for 'Napoleon Bonaparte'
For us, these are examples of traditional forms being used to create new songs
Whether they will ever become folk songs isn't in our hands, nor should it be - nobody has the right to declare a folk song 'folk" - that's the job of 'the folk'
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:05 PM

... the anonymous Munich air disaster song, 'Flowers of Manchester'...
I always heard and thought that "Flowers of Manchester" was written by Eric Winter, the Editor of Sing magazine. This website would seem to bear this out.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM

Buddy Holly probably grew up nearer to folk and rural traditional singers than most people in England. I don't think you would have to look deeply into his early work to discern traditional song patterns.

he sounds like a hillbilly to me.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:32 PM

from what I've seen of your club from your links, it doesn't seem to have worked there
What links? What club?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM

And Didn't Buddy Holly use the traditional "Shave and a Haircut" rhythmic chanting for one of his songs as used by Bo Diddley and probably many more before him.


Dave,

If Alexa has failed you try the star of "The Wizard of Oz".

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:41 PM

Conversely, Gordon Strachan the football manager was not the same person as
Gordon Strachan the Church of Scotland radical theologian. I don't think either of them could sing all that well - I knew the theologian slightly but never asked.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:06 PM

"Jim, actually has a point, in most of what he has just posted. " (SG)
Is there any need fro this nastiness Steve (JC)

Your paranoia coming out again.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:55 PM

"Your paranoia coming out again"
"Gasps of horror on the folk scene and Mudcat!!!!!
Jim, actually has a point, in most of what he has just posted. "
You seem to moved on from patronising me to ridiculing me - not what I became used to down the years and totally unnecessary
Niether is necessary - I know my place in the order of hings just I I know yours
Nice editing, by the way
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:12 PM

Since Jim is back could he answer my question about my links and my club for he has left me feeling puzzled?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:25 PM

You did the editing. I just copied it, but thanks for the compliment!

Basically when we agree with you were being 'nasty'.
When we compliment your work we're being 'patronising'.
Looks like a mild paranoia to me!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:31 PM

Me too, Vic!

Jim, what links and what club?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:54 PM

!You did the editing.
yOU WROTE IT
"but thanks for the compliment!"
No compliment intended - you need to learn to receive what you dish out
"Looks like a mild paranoia to me!"
Looks like yet another attempt to patonise and insult to me - far too much of that around as it is
"Since Jim is back"
Didn't realise I'd been anywhere - must go easy on the cooking sherry
"What links? What club?"
Sorry Vic - that was intended for Dave who put up links to his club

Off shortly to enjoy a weekend devoted to traditional concertina playing rudely interrupted by a day's traditional singing in the north of the county
When we wrote our letter (entitled "where have all the Folk-songs gone" t o The living Tradition, we were greeted by a barrage of protest not unsimilar to this - one particularity from a group sounding more like a firm of solicitors than a folk group (Boyes Cooper and summat) stood out
They suggested the we were suffering from the boredom of the "long, dark winter nights in Miltown Malbay" - wonder if they're still doing the rounds and how busy they are compared to here
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:32 PM

Boom and fizzle has been the norm for all kinds of music for centuries, with the cycles steadily shortening since the 18th century. 1815: waltzes. 1842: polkas. 1850s: Highland pipes. 1870s: brass bands.

Those all stuck around for a while. Later on they tended not to. 1900ish: ragtime 1915: jazz - which only survived by becoming something quite different every decade, finally vanishing below public visibility around 1970. The Charleston: maybe ten years from 1920. Foxtrots: not much longer. Instrumentals featuring weird sounds: 1940-1960. String-based easy listening: 1950-1970. Rock and roll: more durable but mainly hung on by fusing with other things. Trippy synthesizer music: 1970s.

Is it really surprising that revived folk ran out of novelty on the same timescale as the Twist?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM

Thank you for the clarification and apology, Jim

a group sounding more like a firm of solicitors than a folk group (Boyes Cooper and summat)
(Barry) Coope, (Jim) Boyes and (Lester) Simpson were for quite a number of years the top attraction on the folk club scene in England. The fame that surrounded them mainly due to their wonderful suites of First World War Songs which resulted in their gaining several BBC series to deliver their songs. This made them a major venue attraction with their fees way beyond the means of folk clubs but in spite of this they would fit in visits to our club in Lewes as we had booked them as individuals and as a group even before their rise to fame. I am very grateful to them for doing so.
All three have a very strong background in traditional song and I would rate their album of folk songs Hindsight and their album of folk carols A Garland of Carols as amongst the finest by folk revival singers this century.
Jim & Georgina Boyes have now moved to live in Belgium but Lester and Barry have joined forces with the superbly talented sisters Jo Freya & Fi Fraser in a quartet called Narthen.

Perhaps the oddest thing about your post was that it combined this perjorative description of these very fine performers with a sentence that included the words "you need to learn to receive what you dish out" when actually there is never any call for comments that demean others. Mudcat would be a much healthier place without them.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:38 PM

The only links I have posted are of me performing, Jim. From these you have determined that "it doesn't seem to have worked there". Thanks a bunch. You really know how to bolster a man's confidence.

Don't complain about anyone else being personally insulting again. Just when I thought we were beginning to understand each other.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:39 PM

Coope. Boyes and Simpson....not my cup of tea but i should have thought they were yours, Jim. Very traddy.

undeniably talented. i should imagine they're all doing okay.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:06 PM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham - PM
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:09 AM

Any sensible performer wanting to please his/her/their audience would tailor their set to what they think the audience would want to hear"
Nic Jones once said to me, you dont ask the audience what they want to hear you convince them that they want to hear what you want to perform, that what performing is about, you grab the audience

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:12 PM

Well Nic never grabbed me, He was a fine musician. A great fiddle player. People forget that because his singing and guitar playing were so good.
because He got great reviews for his albums in MM at the time, People turned out to see him - he was definitely on the radar.

But he never spoke much on the stage and presented his songs and explained why he chose them. So it was largely unfamiliar material to the audience, which is asking a lot.

In that period, folk club audiences were always polite and appreciative, but I never seemed to hear gasps of admiration or saw people queuing up after the gig.

He was a better really as a recording artist. The albums have stood the test of time.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:20 AM

Yes the Folk club boom of the 1960s was multifaceted ~ entertainment ~ singing choruses, see and listening to the likes of Nick Jones with his guitar skills and accompaniments to traditional songs

June Tabor and Maddy Prior ~ the folk entertainers, Tony Capstick, Mike Harding etc

The opportunity to try out songs and get others to sing along ~ a voyage of discovery as to where "we" came from that is our social and family history in song ~ Fred Jordan, The Coppers, The Elliotts (of Birtley) etc

People at gigs may have been hero worshipers but I certainly was too bashful to approach the booked guests!

Must say I still enjoy harmony singing groups ~ Derek and Dorothy Elliott (of Barnsley), The Voice Squad superb

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:30 AM

agreed.
theres a great little quartet round here of adults old enough to know better calling themselves No Direction.
very jolly!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:41 AM

Apropos of nothing at all, Derek and Dorothy had a shop in Whitby. Dunno if they still do. It had pictures of Derek with various cast members from Heartbeat on the walls. Funny that a traditional singer was in a TV series with a Buddy Holly song as a theme init... :-D

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:51 AM

Did the average punter in the 60's go to a folk club to be entertained,educated, both,or some other reason?
Speaking for myself I would not want to hear a never ending dirge like the unquiet grave in a folk club, but could happily listen to John Conolly singing selfpenned material about the Grimsby/Hull fishing industry.If I received an education from my experiences it was peripheral and incidental, I was there for entertainment.
I wonder if traditional and contemporary folk music passes the old grey whistle test and would this account for the longevity of certain material?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:57 AM

Derek was not a traditional singer he was a revival singer who sang trad songs thers a difference.the elliots of birtley are not to be confused with derek elliot

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:12 AM

Not really interested in the firm of solicitors, just their ill-informed rudeness about my chosen home town
Rudeness, envy and back-biting seems to be a built in part of today's folk scene
Nice to add yet another myth (about MacColls hidden millions) to my collection - perhaps one day we'll be able to discuss is work and ideas - should we all live that long!!!

"Any sensible performer wanting to please his/her/their audience would tailor their set to what they think the audience would want to hear"
Dedicated singer (performer sounds far too professional) should realise that the first person to please is themselves - do that and you stand a far better chance of taking your listeners with you
Despite rumors to the contrary, I have firmly come to the conclusion that our folk songs were made to respond to what was happening around them and to record it in song - we've actually been told that by source singers and have recorded descriptions of songs being made
The 'sale' aspect of singing and songwriting was, with very little doubt, always a secondary issue until the hacks entered the picture and, as has been admitted by the print origin lot, that was a two-way street - nobody will ever know which direction the bulk of the traffic moved, we can only use our common sense to decide that - dates men nothing if you don't have all the information

Ray's description of the revival in no way coincides with my experience
We were lucky to have MacColl and Seeger as residents, but we relied on all our residents - booking guests was a break in the normal run of things
Our clubs - there were several - were very much grassroots affairs designed to promote the songs - not the singers - and to encourage the making of new songs
Can't say that any of Ron's first list were among those I'd make much of an effort to seek out
The source singers, most certainly, The Stewarts, Willie Scott, Seamus Ennis, Paddy Tunney, Walter Pardon, Joe Heaney, the Travellers we recorded, Jeannie and Lizzie... I was lucky to see them all and many more
I wasn't there, but Pat remembers the night Harry Cox was the guest and started rather uncomfortably, until he turned his back on the audience, spat his new false teeth into his handkerchief and turned around and transfixed the audience with his singing

The Singers was among the first to stick traditional Irish musicians in front of a folk club audience, we saw the best, McCarthy, Casey, Meehan, McGlinchey, Sherlock...
I still have a recording of the glorious night when Offaly box player, John Bowe formed an instant friendship with Bert Lloyd on the Singers Club stage
A club member asked us to book this new fiddle play he'd just heard, so we booked a fresh-faced young Kevin Burke and his mate, P J Crotty - magic nights that never leave you - I wouldn't swap one of them for all your folk superstars
That's what the revival meant for me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:36 AM

So, Jim, do you really think the links I provided of my performances at Swinton prove that the folk club there is no longer working? The songs I linked were me performing 3 pieces at different times. "The old cock crow" unaccompanied; "The harvest of the moon", with concertina accompaniment and a guitar piece of unknown origin that I learnt from my Dad. I would have thought they were just the type of pieces that work in folk clubs. Why do you say "from what I've seen of your club from your links, it doesn't seem to have worked there"?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM

" there is never any call for comments that demean others. "
My comments were in response to their initial rudeness Vic
You tend to be somewhat myopic when it comes to bad manner and insulting - ignoring the bits that suit you - even describing them as harmless and only objecting when it's from someone you don't agree with
I pointed this out on the 'New Book' thread.
This latest is an example
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM

If you have forgotten them just Google "Dave Polshaw YouTube" and all 3 appear. The middle one is incorrectly titled "The harvest of the moon".

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:06 AM

How are you ever going to raise the profile of your music if you call each other names.

As I say,   Lester Simpson - i've seen several times. He tells these folk tales. And Coop Boyes and Simpson have been doing their thing about twelve years that I know off. they are your actual arts council/BBC sort of thing. Immensely competent and dedicated.

My boat stays unfloated, but lots of people like them. I'm an old fart pub singer. I dropped the ball sometime after Leapy Lee made number one. you can't expect me to get it.

But these guys are on your side. they would be on your side in any argument.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:25 AM

I know you are on your way out, Jim, but if you can see your way to answering my question as soon as you can I would appreciate it. It is very important to me.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:25 AM

"How are you ever going to raise the profile of your music if you call each other names."
Said the feller who's just referred to several of us as "toadies"
"So, Jim, do you really think the links I provided of my performances at Swinton prove that the folk club there is no longer working?"
That wasn't my point Dave - I was a referring to poorly attended clubs populated lagely by oldies failing to attract new blood
I wouldn't dream of condemning what goes on there on the basis of a couple of clips
It's what you argue should happen at folk clubs that divides us
A folk club that fails to make folk song its main feature simply isn't doing its job
The question of standards is an important one but judging that needs a wider picture than a couple of clips can give

One thing that strikes me is that the internet may be a way of critically discussing performances with a view to improving them
The barrier to that of course is in making clear that positive criticism is not insulting or condemnation - not when it's delivered on a "good bits and bad bits" basis
THe other hurdle is the cloak of invincibility parts of the reivival has wrapped itself in - evidence of it here with good singers (ie, singers the poster happens to like) are above criticism, summed up by the old joke"
What would you do if you came home to find your missus in bed with Georgie Best   
Throw on another blanked 0- you don't want the bugger catching cold before Saturday

Nobody should ever be above criticism
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:53 AM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:03 AM

Ah, OK. Thanks Jim. The clips I posted do not show what you seem to say and the chap taking the videos was in fact a young man so, if your impression was that Swinton was failing to attract new blood you are only partially right. There was certainly not many younger people but there were some. That seems to be the way of things and you will find that there are not many oldies at a rave!

It's what you argue should happen at folk clubs that divides us
A folk club that fails to make folk song its main feature simply isn't doing its job

Once again I am at a loss as to your meaning. The clips I linked are of me (and a number of others if you look) singing folk songs so, once again, how were we "failing to make folk songs a main feature"? Which of the songs I mention above are not folk songs and why? If we need to improve things we need to know what!

Also, again, I have never argued that "anything should go" at a folk club and you have failed to provide any evidence or where I am supposed to have done so. If you cannot back up the statement please stop making it, Repitition does not make something true as I think you pointed out to someone else once.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:17 AM

"That seems to be the way of things and you will find that there are not many oldies at a rave!"
Whataboutism is no excuse
I was twenty one when I became involved and by three years younger sister did so at the same time
I was still buzzing from Duane Eddy, Buddy Holly, Rickie Nelson et al, and for a while continued to do so
It is more than a litle dismissive to claim that young people can' be involved
We sat in a room alongside the two generations of late friend Tom McCarthy - Clare piper and concertina player
His daughters daughters, their spouses and their six/seven (too many to count) children - all superb musicians sat and listened whie Toomt Keane (pipe spuse of one of the daughters) gabe a two hour talk on Tom's music - then followed by a mini-concert by family members
A truely magic night dominated by youngsters just as at home in a session as they are at a rave
We misjudge the youth if we believe them to be incapable of incapable of our music, and we do ourselves no favours either
Once again, I made no comment on either the standard or the content of your club
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:50 AM

Try and follow this one:-

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:54 PM
When we wrote our letter (entitled "where have all the Folk-songs gone" t o The living Tradition, we were greeted by a barrage of protest not unsimilar to this - one particularity from a group sounding more like a firm of solicitors than a folk group (Boyes Cooper and summat) stood out
They suggested the we were suffering from the boredom of the "long, dark winter nights in Miltown Malbay"

In an effort to reduce unkind comments on this thread, Vic writes ...

From: Vic Smith - PM
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM
Perhaps the oddest thing about your post was that it combined this perjorative description of these very fine performers with a sentence that included the words "you need to learn to receive what you dish out" when actually there is never any call for comments that demean others. Mudcat would be a much healthier place without them.

Jim defends himself by saying....

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM
My comments were in response to their initial rudeness Vic.

Vic thinks about this. He checks, using the Mudcat member search facility to see whether Barry Coope, Jim Boyes or Lester Simpson have ever posted on Mudcat. None of the three ever have. This brings another question to Vic's mind....

None of these three people are likely to read your comments about them on this forum as there is no evidence that they ever visit here. If their comments, made in the magazine Living Tradition, about the "long, dark winter nights in Miltown Malbay" are so hurtful to you, why don't you take them up with the magazine rather than posting them here? After all, the editor of that magazine also makes her home in the western part of the fair land of Erin and probably suffers as badly from the blasts of Boreas, the shivers brought by Jack Frost and the other spirits that control the shorter daylight days. She may have sympathy for your cause.
We have enough problems with home-grown Mudcat insults without importing them.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM

the point is that Coope, Boyes and Simpson are very much on the traddie/purist wavelength, like yourself.

I've never pretended to be.

I just thought a bit of group solidarity might reduce the need for uncritical toadyism.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 08:24 AM

Ok, Jim. So your comment "from what I've seen of your club from your links, it doesn't seem to have worked there" was only aimed at an apparent failure to attract young people. I can see that now and apologise for my earlier misinterpretation. In my defense, it can be difficult to follow your posts at times but I will try harder. However, what you failed to see on the clips is that it was a young man that recorded the songs and there were other young people in the audience that were not captured on video so your assumption is wrong.

I will also point out that as the club is run in a pub and does not get underway until around 9pm we did not expect children to attend. By young people in this case I mean 20-40. I have never suggested that young people can't be involved either so I have no idea where your statement that it was dismissive came from.

We now go on to address your line "The question of standards is an important one but judging that needs a wider picture than a couple of clips can give" and I agree with that. One cannot condone or condemn the actions of a folk club on the evidence of a couple of clips or on pure hearsay. You need to go to the club a number of times to be able to judge how they are faring. With that in mind, I ask you how many folk clubs in England have you attended recently?

I eagerly await your response.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 08:51 AM

The clubs I went to in the 70s were filled mainly with young people in their 20s and 30s, although there were a few older ones as well. That generation is the still the one I see in the clubs I go to now. However young people haven't given up folk music, they are starting up their own clubs, just as my generation did, and presenting the music their own way, again just as my generation did. I don't see anything wrong with that.

As for folk clubs not featuring folk songs any more, I think that is a consequence of the shrinking club scene. Like it or not, the term "folk" covers a fairly broad spectrum, and the clubs I wrote about earlier all covered a range of music. If the music at one club didn't suit you there were plenty of other clubs which would. Now that choice isn't there, so everyone is forced together. They may be performing songs which may not be to everyone's taste, but they have no alternative.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,RS
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:02 AM

The folk clubs in Reading that I went to in the 60s were wonderfully eclectic in their range of performers, & leaned more towards the blues/Jansch side (courtsey of the likes of residents such as Mike Cooper, Derek Hall, Bill Boazman etc ) - if they'd been more trad in nature, as I later discovered was the case in many places, I reckon they'd've been less appealing to many of us - I was luckier than I knew.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:11 AM

" With that in mind, I ask you how many folk clubs in England have you attended recently
Been there, done that Dave - the internet has made that totally irrelevant
When somebody names a good singer who, with a little search, turns out to be a crap singer singing crap, you know something is not right
Equally, when people argue for clubs being venues for songs not remotely relating to folk you know that all the visits in teh world are not going to change what you will find
The same applies to using crib sheets, having no standards... and all the other things argued for here and elsewhere, the idea that all is not well is confirmed
ou only need to look on the EFDSS website and could that with Rod Stradling's editorial, you have to admit something is sadly amiss at the very place that should be at the helm
Meaningless and often insulting comments like "purist" and "folk police" are indications that people are turning away from folk song and using the term to mean something else, which by and large they are totally unable or unwilling to define (including you BTW) are indications that the scene has become directionless
"Long ballads" being "inappropriate" is an out of hand dismissal of the cream of the folk repertoire
Fall in attendance, reduction in number of clubs, often described discomfiture at singing unaccompanied songs (or even old songs) - all suggesting a terminal decline
The shift from competent resident to paid guest, festivals taking over from locally based clubs.... how much evidence do you want ?
Folk clubs with out folk songs are not only pointless, they do damage to the future of our art (that really is what it is)
I love singing, I have always loved listening to good songs reasonably performed, but my interests go far beyond that   
Last nights trip to town to hear the children and grandchildren of a twenty year dead piper friend play superbly left me waling on a cloud
A couple of minutes on Mudcat has brought me back to earth with a bump
Never mind, off to here another dead friend being discussed and demonstrated in an hour or so
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:22 AM

Clubs nowadays are tending to descibe themselves as "acoustic music clubs" rather than "folk clubs". This provides a clear open door to all genres (Americana, blues, trad, etc.) Anything involving applification is still regarded as a no-no however, I have witnessed a few discrete 'plug-ins' here & there.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM

Equally, when people argue for clubs being venues for songs not remotely relating to folk you know that all the visits in teh world are not going to change what you will find
The same applies to using crib sheets, having no standards... and all the other things argued for here and elsewhere, the idea that all is not well is confirmed
ou only need to look on the EFDSS website and could that with Rod Stradling's editorial, you have to admit something is sadly amiss at the very place that should be at the helm

Rod is not the person to go to for opinions about folk clubs. When we were at his place in Stroud last year, he told me that the only folk club that he had been to in the last fifteen years was ours - and that was because we had booked him. This does not mean that he is no longer involved in live music. He plays in his dance band, he is a regular at song and tune sessions in his area and he was raving to me about a concert that he has just seen in Bristol by Eliza Carthy's latest band. He finds concerts with hearing loops and small sessions more suitable and acoustic folk clubs in larger rooms more difficult with his hearing loss problems
I have more sympathy with his current position with the EFDSS and I feel that there is some sense of loss of direction since Malcolm Taylor retired. There are still great things being achieved by them in terms of the archiving of recordings of traditional song. The Full English is utterly admirable and the society hosts the vital and vast Roud Folk Song Index. I really like Katie Spicer the current CEO and she has worked wonders in terms of major fund-raising from the ACE and the HLR as well as attracting corporate funding. All this comes with strings attached so the emphasis has moved to sponsoring projects and to putting singers, dancers and musicians into schools - especially those that are finding it difficult to attract full-time music teachers. The evaluation asked for by these organisations calls for analysis of numbers of those attending, so when, as a member, I press for the Thomas McCarthys and Will Nobles of this world, it is explained to me why this is not always viable.
Unlike Rod, I remain a member of the EFDSS and will press for any action that supports traditional music. I vote in their elections and am very pleased to see people I know and respect like Alistair Anderson, Fi Fraser, Nicola Kearey, Mike Heaney and Corrine Male on the Governing Board.
I have no sympathy for those who criticise the EFDSS without joining to try to being about a change in direction. Similarly, those who do nor regularly visit and support folk clubs and encourage the organisers when they feel they are doing something well and expressing doubts about what they are less engaged by will never achieve change. I know that as an organiser I always was guided by club regulars and acted on suggestions that I thought helpful.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 10:55 AM

Been there, done that Dave - the internet has made that totally irrelevant

Sorry, Jim, but it doesn't make it irrelevant at all. There are a number of ways of measuring most things. The style, quality and general demenour of folk clubs being one of them. I agree with you entirely that the internet has a place in making these judgements but, as you said yourself, "The question of standards is an important one but judging that needs a wider picture than a couple of clips can give" (Emboldening is mine). There are clips on the internet, there is anecdotal evidence and there is experiencing things for yourself. All these things go to make up the larger picture. I am not saying that the evidence that you present is not right, but it is not the whole picture. Just as mine is not because I can only report what I see in the clubs I am familiar with.

You say the whole folk club scene is in dire straights because of the evidence you have gathered. I say it is not because of the evidence I have gathered. If we put our evidence together we will probably find that the situation is somewhere in between where not everything is failing but there is considerable room for improvement.

Neither of us is wholly right or wrong and that is something I think we can work on.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 12:58 PM

Dave and Vic, well put. I'm in total agreement.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:06 PM

I am pleased that some ppl had the good fortune to see and hear some traditional singers at their folk clubs in the 1960s and 1970s on a regular basis ~ I think that most like me were happy to see and hear revivalist singers and the odd opportunity to meet the likes of MacColl, Bert Lloyd, Arthur Howard, Frank Hinchliffe, Vin Garbutt, Cyril Tawney, Bod Davenport and others who were around ~ of whatever ilk showed the range of ppl around at the time!

Of course there is a fine body of upcoming ~ nay established professional artist and groups doing the rounds at the moment

Festivals and concerts and as I mentioned before vinyl records and sleeve notes were a great source of knowledge and information

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM

Agreed, Ray
I can be as nostalgic as the next person when it comes to remembering the 60s, but if I am being honest and realistic the current performers, including the current crop under 40, are at least as good and as numerous, and, dare I say it, more knowledgeable of the background to the music simply because there is infinitely more information readily available.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:28 PM

Steve i disagree, we had closer contact to tradtional singers willie scott etc, and no i do not think they are any better, the standard is much the same, but the standard of floor singers now is lower

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:59 PM

Steve has put a lot of effort into discovering the historical background to traditional music. So have I, and I agree entirely that the message has got through - younger players have a much better idea of where the stuff they play came from than those of a generation ago. Partly a change of attitude and partly what the Internet makes possible - a fiddler today coming across a wacky tune like "Catharsis" might well think, what was that all about? and if they ask the question it's only going to take minutes to find the composer's story about it in her own words. And it's a good story, well worth using in a performance. The charm of wilful ignorance wears off pretty fast.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:44 PM

Yes, Dick, we did have access to traditional singers in the flesh, but today's youngsters have even greater access to their singing as much more is available online and on albums, thanks to many websites which make this available, Mustrad, EFDSS, ITMA, Kist of Riches, Yorkshire Garland, Farne, Sussex Traditions, etc. etc.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:35 AM

EFDSS gives only a bunch of singer songwriters in sound and, according to Stradling, have totally abandoned anything traditional in their magazine
The editor of Mustrad has pointed out that, unless are some radical changes, Musical Traditions with have to rethink what they are doing
ITMA is part of the rise in the fortunes of Irish Music due to dedication that appears to be missing from the English scene
The School of Scottish Studies is a wonderful site but , as all such resources, can only be useful if there is back-up work to assist its use
At one time, the club scene was once very much a part of that work - no longer the case with a revival which no longer seems to know what folk song is and, even worse, does not even want to talk about it.
These sites are for people who already know about folk song; it has already been claimed that th cause of low sales and disappearing clubs etc is that the old folkies are dying off

EFDSS
It is as old as the hills to argue that you shouldn't criticise if you are not prepared to join
I was a member for a time and I did a great deal of work in helping archive what they has, along with Malcolm I helped produce several albums of traditional singers and storytellers - all now deleted
I helped get The Carpenter Collection into Britain along with the then Librarian (Theresa Thom) and Bob Thomson
Been there - done that, and was ground down by the ignorance, apathy and opposition emanating from 'them upstairs'
In those days it was largely because the Society was dance orientated
Christ only knows what motivates the present lot - it most certainly ain't folk song
The Journal is the only saving grace of EFDSS and you don't have to be a member to get that
Nobody in their right mind would join any organisation in order to expend your energy in reforming it rather than on furthering the cause of the music it claims to represent
We have the CCE in Ireland as a perfect example of how futile an exercise that is
Tilting at windmills may have been fine for Don Quixote....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:41 AM

Dave
I see no point in us arguing further
Your arguments are little different than those below the line who argue that I have no right to discuss UK politics because I no longer live there
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

I am not sure that crticism from someone who has only been in a folk club once in fifteen years is informed criticism, how is it acceptable to make statements and pontificate about folk clubs if you have only been to one once in fifteen years, it is in fact no different from me pontificating about church services when i have not been once in fifteen years, its reminscent of alice in wonderland or the mad hatters tea party.
as for tilting at windmills, i can think of only one mudcat member who does that regularly.
CCE in ireland has been partly responsible for the promotion of irish tradtional music as has the Willie Clancy summer school, this is not opinion it is fact, that does not mean that i like the compoetitive side of CCE,
CCE also funds trad music festivals that are not competitive and sponors trad sessions. it is important to make informed and accurate criticism, to criticise for the sake of criticising and to make uninformed criticism of anything is reminscent of Don Quixote
CCE is the largest group involved in the preservation and promotion of Irish traditional music. We’re a non-profit cultural movement with hundreds of local branches around the world, and as you can read in our history we’ve been working for the cause of Irish music since the middle of the last century (1951 to be precise). Our efforts continue with increasing zeal as the movement launches itself into the 21st century.

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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:34 AM

Good grief, Jim. Where did that come from? Spilling over from the things mothers said thread, have you seen your arse this morning or something?

I have no more said you have no right to discuss anything than I have said anything goes at folk clubs. You have never provided any evidence of me saying the latter and you will find no evidence of me saying the former. In fact in my last post I specifically say

I am not saying that the evidence that you present is not right, but it is not the whole picture.

And go on to conclude

Neither of us is wholly right or wrong and that is something I think we can work on.

Now, if you believe that to be the action of someone who wants to exclude you from the discussion then, yes, there is no point continuing because you are, dare I say it, speaking a different language to me.

I have accepted, and seen, that there are faults in the folk scene. I have seen the phone mumblers and the introspective singers who think that everyone is interested in the forlorn fourteen year old love. And don't get me going on the performance poets with their overflowing ring binders. Why can they not even remember their own words?

Can you just not accept that there is also a lot of good stuff that can be built on?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:01 AM

You have suggested that unless I attend clubs I have no right to comment of the state of the revival Dave - or hat's how I took your question on how many I attend - Dick has just repeated your suggestion

As for being right or wrong - I really have no idea what you and many others regard as 'folk song' and until I do, we'll continue to go around in circles
I am arguing that folk song has been edged out of the club scene to make room for some nameless product that bears little resemblance to the real thing
hat do I have to be 'tolerantt about, or 'compromise' on
Folk clubs should never be an end in themselves or a place to go and meet your mates - they can be many things, bu their over-riding role should always be to promote a specific type of music
You seem to apply conditions on folk song that you would not apply to any other creative activity - I ask you all anain - is running a Jazz club to exclusively play and listen Jazz "restrictive", ""narrow", "purist" or "jazz policing"
If not, what the hell's wrong with folk song that it should be treated the way these people treat it   
Beyond all logic to me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM

Dave
There's no animosity or ill-feeling on my part, far from it - I just don't see the point in running around in circles and I get very tired of always being on the defensive
It's about time we got some answers here
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:21 AM

Dick, I don't know if you've seen it but I've just come across this website of some folk clubs around Essex which we both used to attend. Lots of familiar names there. Not sure who JKD is.

http://romfolk.com/romfolk.com/Home.html

Essex Record Office has lots of tapes of folk club performances from that period, in particular those made by Jim Etheridge and Dennis Rookard as well as those mentioned by JKD. Sadly they're not online.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:57 AM

I fully understand that there is no I'll feeling, Jim, which is what makes these discussions far more enjoyable than the shite we get off some. But if you think I have ever suggested that you have no right to comment then you are seriously off target. My point about you not attending clubs is that you do not have the whole picture and, because I only attend a handful of clubs, I do not have the whole picture either. Between us, and through these discussions, we have a better idea of what is going on and, from what I gather, there are the issues you mention but there is also lots of good stuff. Like everything else in life, it is not black and white but contains lots of grey areas.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

Oh, and 200!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:07 AM

Same thing really Dave
There is enough evidence in Stradling's letter alone to suggest something has gone seriously amiss - many of the arguments here confirm that in their own negative and hostile way
The idea of embarking on a folk club pilgrimage to see how many clubs actually do present folksong might be enjoyabe but, as far as I' concerned, totally unnecessary - every "folk police" and "purist" further makes such a journey a wast of time and energy
Now - how about responding to some of the things I've claimed (not just you Dave)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:28 AM

Remind us, Jim. What specific claims?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM

Oh come on Dave - plenty of them
Why are pop songs valid as consideration for consideration as folk songs will do for a start ?
Why should badly performed pop songs or Victoria tear-jerkers or early pop songs attract young people to folk music ?
What is it intolerant to expect to hear folk songs at a folk club

You might try explaining how you would describe a folksong to a newbie - I asj=ked this ages ago
Your starter for ten
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM

Why are pop songs valid? Many pop songs are now over 50 years old and have been assimilated into a particular folk community. They have become songs belonging to the folk of that community. In addition, many pop and other songs tell a story in the same style as folk music. They are no different to the songs written by, for instance, Ewan MacColl.

Why should badly performed etc. songs attract young people? They dont. I have never made such a claim.

Why is it intolerant etc? It isn't. I expect to hear folk songs at folk clubs. I have never been disappointed.

How would I explain a folk song to a newbie? I would say it is a song of a certain type of meter that, often, tells a story. I would go on to give examples from sources as diverse as the Copper family and Ralph McTell then come bang up to date with Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne and Granny's Attic to demonstrate that it is a living and evolving tradition.

I have made most of these points before but because you disagree, I suspect you have ignored them.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:16 AM

"Many pop songs are now over 50 years old and have been assimilated into a particular folk community."
The folk singing tradition has been more or less moribund since th beginning of the 20th century
How on earth have fifty year old songs been absorbed into a process that is dead as a Norwegian parrot
Age has sfa to to with folk song creation - repetition is not absorptopn

"I have never made such a claim."
Others have, fairly common in modern folk clubs
"Intolerance"
The very term 'folk police" exudes accusations of intolerance - wanna guess how many times it is used

Your description doesn't even begin to define folk song - especially as Ralph McTell doesn't even sing folk songs
Streets of London comes with a little (c) which makes it the property of Ralph McTell so it can never belong to the folk; their songs are in the public domain
No cigar Dave
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:24 AM

Beyond all logic to me
... and to me! How someone thinks that improvement can be brought by persistant repetitive and badly-researched negativity is beyond me. The two central administrative bodies of the countries whose music he is involved with are both awful; they are beyond redemption so much so that he won't work with them. He pours scorn on them.
My attitude could not be more different. I recognise faults and shortcomings but think that by taking small steps and concentrating on the positives, I feel that improvements can be made.
It reminds me of my professional career of 40 years in education, the last 30 at senior manager, head teacher and advisory level. Two of the schools that I arrived at were in a pitiful state, but by becoming involved with a strong team at senior level and by taking worrying issues one at a time, improvements were made and a culture of "We are getting better" developed and staff and pupils thought better of their establishment. In the term after I retired, there was yet another Ofsted inspection and my last school became the first special school to be given "outstanding" status. Well, perhaps the fact that I was no longer there helped but anyone who has been involved will know that this is the result of hard consistent graft.
One of the questions I always asked when I was interviewing for new staff was what the interviewee did outside their working hours, What I wanted to hear was about something that they were totally involved in. something that took them out of themselves, that fulfilled the role that folk music has done for me.
Tina and I completed 50 years of running weekly folk clubs together in 2014 and we both brought the same attitudes to this. If, for example, a singer came along and wanted to read a song to our audience, I would praise them for coming, praise what they had done but say how much better they would communicate with the audience if they had learned and absorbed their song and this was what we were used to and expected. They either did not come again or they took the bother to learn their song, but being a source of encouragement was always at the centre. One of the reasons that I stopped running a club was because of the increase in sessions of song or tune or both were increasing in frequency and standard - both Jim Bainbridge and myself have detailed this earlier in this thread. The folk scene was growing to maturity and folk clubs were no longer the important prop that the scene needed.

Now, I am afraid to say that as much as I am enjoying this futile, stuck discussion which does not seem to have made much progress in, what I see, is now over 200 posts, I have to go and pack my cases to fly out to West Africa where for a lot of the time, I will beyond the reach of electricity never mind the internet. I will be taking lots of batteries so that I can again record Manding jalis singing and playing their koras and balafons and others, I hope, will be new to me. A traditional jali will come from a family of heriditary musicians. He is a traditional singer and musician, but unless he creates within the strict structures of their traditions. If he is not giving a moral commentary of society as he or she sees it; if he is not composing praise songs for those making major contributions or events in their society then he won't be listened to. I expect I will be hearing songs of the people who have built the recently opened new road bridge over the River Gambia that will bring great economic benefit to towns like Soma or Farafeni at either end of it.
What I won't hear is complaints and negativity.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Kenny B
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:24 AM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM

Oh come on Dave - plenty of them
Why are pop songs valid as consideration for consideration as folk songs will do for a start ?
Why should badly performed pop songs or Victoria tear-jerkers or early pop songs attract young people to folk music ?
What is it intolerant to expect to hear folk songs at a folk club

You might try explaining how you would describe a folksong to a newbie - I asj=ked this ages ago
Your starter for ten
Jim

This is a thread about the UK60s Folk Club Boom
If I was Dave i wouldn't reply to this thread drift by asking the poster to start 3 individual threads on the topics where he can debate each suggestion in turn without thread drift

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:27 AM

Like I said, Jim. Just because you disagree does not make it untrue. You asked the questions. You have my answers. I cannot answer for things others have said.

MacTell's songs are as much contemporary folk as MacColl's are. There are plenty more of his songs other than Streets of London. You asked for a definition of folk music. Not traditional music.

No cigar? I wasn't aware it was a competition in which prizes are won. Are you sole judge and jury in this arcade game? I think not.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM

Bit of a cop-out Kenny
This 'thread drift' has been a natural part of the discussion from the beginning
"Too late, too late", the maiden cried
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Kenny B
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:18 AM

"Too late, too late", the maiden cried"

well done but you should have quoted the whole verse, much more appropriate to the proceedings

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:36 AM

better late than never as the actress said to the folk singer

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM

I know several versions Kenny - most of them obscene
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM

Jim
Re your post at 6.18.

Are you telling us that copyright of a song lasts for ever?

If so that must be a recent change.

Ralph McTell was trying to make a living as a singer / songwriter. Why shouldn't he copyright his product?

I have seen material written by Mr MacColl that has been copyrighted and I have seen traditional material with words and music arranged by Ewan MacColl.

Surely singers and songwriters shouldn't give away the fruits of their labour any more than electricians would.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM

"Are you telling us that copyright of a song lasts for ever?"
How long ago did McTell write Streets of London - not Forever ago, surely
It was a reference to mentioned singer
Copyright is not really an issue - only an indication of the unclaimability of modern songs
One of the issues it does raise is how claiming modern written songs to be 'folk' has opener the door to the public performance jackals demanding payment from folk clubs"Why shouldn't he copyright his product?"
Who said he shouldn't - not me ?
I just said that it can't belong to him and to 'the folk'
I have no idea if Ewan continued to copyright traditions arrangements - I know some of his agents did at one time but we both know the disputes he had with them at one time or another
At no time did he ever claim his own songs were 'folk' - he ever refused to call his clubs 'Folk Clubs'
The only bust-up Ewan ever had with Luke Kelly is when the Dubliners began copyrighting folk songs
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM

I have answered 4 questions from you, Jim. Will you answer just one from me. If you went to a folk club and were treated to an evening of songs written by, for instance, Ewan MacColl, Vin Garbutt and Cyril Tawney, would you complain?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:39 AM

Should have said, there is no right or wrong answer to this. No cigar to win. Not a trick question. Just bear in mind all the songs you will hear have a little "c" after their titles.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootennanny
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:51 AM

You stated that McTell's song could never be a folksong because he had copyrighted it. That is your personal belief.

Re the "Jackals" that you mention. Admittedly I don't attend Folk clubs that often these days but I have never yet seen anybody completing a PRS form and never been asked to complete one myself.

As an aside I should point out that when I worked for one of the "jackals" organisations I was able to make possible royalty payments to a traditional singer on behalf of their work and that of a parent. Not a fortune but an amount that was very much appreciated. They had never registered.

I don't defend the middlemen in collection of royalties but is there better practical way?

With regard to Ewan and disputes with "some of his agents". We do NOT both know, or at least I don't.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:19 AM

"That is your personal belief."
Not really Hoot, unless you think we stall have a living tradition
While the copyright exists it will still be the property of the holder
If children parody it and make their own versions, their creations may become folk songs possibly
But beyond that....
None of this is "my personal belief" - - that's what folk song is
It may be your "personal belief" that the song is a folk song, but you are going to have to argue for it
Feel free
You know as well as I do that royalties paid to 'folk'writers are pittances unless the industry can make something out of it first

As far as agents are concerned - NONE SO DEAF.... ...
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:47 PM

So, Jim, would you complain about the situation I described? I did answer your questions straight off...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:56 PM

Sorry
I missed you post
I would enjoy such an evening but I don't think that's what the scene needs at present
Once you lose your roots you've lost the flower - these are all offshoots rather than the actual plant

Actually you didn't answer my points - or if you did, you ignored everything I said
I don't regard MacColl's songs as folk - neither did he - your constantly referring to them as such not only goes against my analysis, it goes against the composers
You have yet to give a defiition of folk song - what you gave was a personal stab at what one sounded like - not the same thing
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:03 PM

I have answered every single one of your points, Jim. That I have not answered them to your satisfaction is not my issue. Sorry.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:19 PM

It seems then that you are quite happy with some copyrighted material but not all. So your definition of what copyrighted material is acceptable at folk clubs is based on your own personal tastes. That is entirely subjective I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:32 PM

"It seems then that you are quite happy with some copyrighted material but not all. "
How do you make that out Dave ?
Copyright doesn't come into what goes on in the clubs, just what constitutes a folk song
You really are not ansering my points

I have no problem with using the tradition to make folk songs - They won't become folk songs until they are absorbed into an oral tradition and become the property of 'the folk' but that doesn't stop them being sung at folk clubs
As far as I am concerned, using the tradition to make new songs is essential - a continuance of the tradition, if not part of it

Excuses are not answers - one more time - how do you define a folk song
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:36 PM

Of to spend an evening watching crap on tele ("how dare you call, 'Call the Midwife' crap sir?")
Feckin' exhausted after three days of superb concertina music
Sleep well girls
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM

Ihad a great night lst night,in the best pub in ballydehob ina dalys still run by an old woiman six of us singning the old songs and now listening tmargaret barry amnd other trad music on lyric in an interview of myles o reilly, bury me in rural ireland when its my time

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:26 PM

thanks howard dear denis rookard , he was alovely man

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:27 PM

jkd john durrant

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:38 PM

Jim,
I did not say that McTell's song was a folk song. It is a song written by a singer. The songs that you prefer were "written" by somebody at sometime and you are happy to call them folk. If McTell's song shows up at some considerable time in the future what differentiates it? Oh I know he wasn't a downtrodden horny handed son of the soil.

Personally I can't stand the song but I did admire Ralph's guitar playing elsewhere.

I don't know any "Folk" writers, I thought they were all dead. Could you name any of the ones that you refer to who have been paid pittance.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 03:07 AM

I answered all your questions, Jim. 17 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM Not my problem if you didn't like the answers.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 03:35 AM

could this be check mate?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM

" 17 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM Not my problem if you didn't like the answers."
That was a rough description Dave - no a definition
As far as I am concerned the definition of a folk song lies in the two inseperable terms Folk and Traditional
"Tradition" is the largely oral process that first led to the making, remaking and changing of the songs whose origins are virtually untraceable and unattributable
"Folk" was a term applied to the people who almost certainly made and used the songs down the ages to express aspects of their lives and experiences   

The structure of folk songs reflect their characteristics and their probable origins unlike most pop songs, the personnel tend have names, identities, occupations and description
They are farm-workers, soldiers, sailors, weavers..... labourers...real people with real lives and real problems - they are two-dimensional rather than the flat, lifeless stereotypes created by the music industry - or the broadside presses, for that matter
The songs indicate a working knowledge of the backgrounds of the characters, tools, trade terms, customs lore, and their experiences are universal rather the introspective, which is why they survived as long as they have and, in my opinion, are still relevant - they express experiences that we can all relate to, to some degree
They often contain information that would otherwise have been lost or forgotten, which is what makes researching them so enjoyable and fulfilling
Nowhere can you find the depth of information on the experiences of 'ordinary' people that you can in the folk songs - it was hardly considered important enough to record
That's my take on what folk songs are and why they are important - now tell me how yours measures up
As I have said - folk song is defined clearly in the two words "folk" and "tradition"
If it didn't belong to the folk and hasn't passed through a traditional process it ain't a folk songs
This doesn't mean we can't still go on making songs and enjoying singing them at folk clubs - must sing you 'Hippies and the Beatniks' (Miles Wooton?) or Doneill Kennedy's 'O'Reilly and the Big McNeill' sometime - or any other of the near 100 I can still remember
As long as they fit into a folk song evening they are an essential additive - but that's what they are - additions

Hoot - I call what I believe to be folk songs "folk" - that doesn't include MacColl's (of which I still sing about a couple of dozen) or Cyril Tawney's or Enoch Kent's... or all the others who composed using folk styles
"Folk song" is a genre far too well researched and documented not to be understandable
As far as I'm concerned, those who don't know what it is don't want to know what it is - "the answer lies out there" as they used to say in 'The X Files'
JIm

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:09 AM

"could this be check mate?"
Or 'Fools Mate" maybe :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:44 AM

Re Jim's insistence on the social/historical concreteness of folk sing lyrics.

Look at the type specimen of English folk song, the one that started it all:

Seeds of Love

The gardener is a bit part in the symbolism, nobody else in it has an occupation and nobody has a name.

Lady Gaga has songs with more real-world narrative.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

Your exact question, Jim

You might try explaining how you would describe a folksong to a newbie

And I did.

No mention of tradition. As far as I am concerned folksong encompasses both traditional and contemporary. Many others agree. Perhaps the contention is that your definition of folk music only encompasses traditional song. If so, fair enough, we can agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:09 AM

Full of recorded folk symbolism Jack - try Thisslson Dyer's 'Plant lore'
If you dig out his Folklore of Shakespeare you'll find some of the lore was current then
Poets from Shakespeare to Burns used the same symbolism - condemn 'The Seeds of Love' (which, I have little doubt, Steve Gardham will claim origniated on the broadsides) and you condemn all poetry throughout history - or maybe you believe that they were inferior to the facile outpourings of Lady Gaga !!
Even if you were right, you can always find example unrepresentative of the main body - who would compare the lyrics of Tutti Frutti to Lennon and McCartney compositions - certainly not me
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:11 AM

...And I think it more likely to be stalemate:-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:17 AM

Jim says, "As far as I am concerned the definition of a folk song lies in the two inseperable terms Folk and Traditional". The problem here is that, as we have discussed many times, these terms have come become separated. "Folk" has come to mean much more than "traditional". Much as you may deplore it, it cannot be denied or avoided.

In the context of what you might expect to hear in a folk club, this has always been far wider than traditional music. My experience of clubs began at the very end of the 60s, but my experience during the 70s and 80s was that as well as traditional songs you could expect to hear music hall, poetry, comedy, singer-songwriters in both contemporary and traditional styles, and much more. And yes, even "pop", particularly in the sense of Donovan, Simon and Garfunkel and of course Dylan.

We have also gone over many times how to define "folk" in this broader sense, and all I can say is that it is easier to recognise than define. Tt comes down to what would be tolerated in a folk club, but that would depend on the tastes and policies of individual clubs' organisers and preferences of their audiences. Fortunately in those days there were so many clubs that it was usually possible to find at least one whose musical tastes matched your own.

As clubs, and club audiences, have become fewer they have had to broaden their musical policy. We have also seen the rise of the "open-mic", which imitate the folk-club format with no limitations on genre. Perhaps some of these describe themselves, incorrectly, as folk clubs, perhaps some folk clubs have evolved into these in order to survive.

My experience of clubs these days is far more limited and infrequent, but I seem to have had a better experience than Jim in that I still hear mainly traditional songs performed. I think he may have been unlucky in his recent experience of folk clubs if this was not the case for him.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:28 AM

jim answer this one you accepth the 1954 definition?
you agree you said this?Hoot - I call what I believe to be folk songs "folk" - that doesn't include MacColl's (of which I still sing about a couple of dozen) or Cyril Tawney's or Enoch Kent's... or all the others who composed using folk styles.
check mate, fields of athenry a composed song using a folk style is sung by football crowds, so according to the 1954 defintion it is a folk song CHECKMATE

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM

Facile. Lacking depth or complexity.

Are you really saying that popular songs have no depth or complexity while folk songs do, Jim?

I think we can find both facile and complex in both camps.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:52 AM

"Does anybody out there have an idea of how many folk music clubs existed in the UK at the height of the 60s folk music boom?"
So that will be a "no", then.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:55 AM

this is Mudcat. Whatever the title of the thread it is just the same people having the same arguement.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:55 AM

Jim,

Must admit that I hadn't clicked on to your link "None so Deaf". I just did.
What was this meant to illustrate? Just how good Ewan was at attempting a Scottish accent? just how good a songwriter he was? I am puzzled.

Was this written before or after the problems with agents which you incorrectly claimed that you and I both know about?

You mention MacColl, Kent and Tawney, I assume that this is in reply to my asking you the names of writers who get paid a pittance in royalties. Could the reason be that Folk and "Folk" song/music is a minority sport and therefore earns little in royalties.
I can't believe that Ewan was only paid a pittance for his most well known composition.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:16 AM

"What was this meant to illustrate? Just how good Ewan was at attempting a Scottish accent? "£
Ewan grew up with a Scottish/Salford acccent as did many Irish children I knew in Liverpool and London - his mother told me that and when I stayed with then for a time conversations between mother and son were virtually impenetrable
Pat always knows when I am talking to my sisters on the phone because I lapse into the Livrpoolese I grew up with unconsciously   
He adapted his natural accent to hi love of Scots songs as an actor does in order to gain popularity for them - particularly the ballads
Does a teacher or a computer programmer sing in the language of his songs
Lat's face it - is a Glaswegian singing an Aberdeenshire ballad not adapting his or her natural way of speaking to sing the ballad?
I got my lifelong love of the ballads by hearing Ewan singing and prozletising for which I will be eternally grateful so any snideswipes any his accent tend tot be water off a duck's back   
The song was, as far as I'm concerned, a healthy satire on an iffy attitude to folk song by a shark
Believe what you want about Ewan and Paggy's royalties - Peggy is still with us so you could always ask her

"Are you really saying that popular songs have no depth or complexity while folk songs do, Jim?"
absolutely Dave - that's why they come with a sell-by date and are replaced as often as they are - just like chewing gum
There may be a few exceptions of course but in the main, they contain nothing and are replaced because it is profitable to do so
Many of them are having a second life in being used to sell everything from toothpaste to sanitary towels

Howard, my experience was very much not yours but the points you make are important ones so, rather than knock of a quick response I would much rather think about what you wrote and reply later
Up to my arse in Irish Child Ballads at the moment
Thanks
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM

"Whatever the title of the thread it is just the same people having the same argument."
Nobody is stopping you joining in - the more, the merrier, as far as I'm concerned
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM

if one want to hear good scottish singing accents ,one would find more accuracy listening to dick gaughan jeanie robertson alex campbell andy stewart[scottish soldier,wheres your trousers]

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM

You probably wouldn't understand a good Scottish accent Dick or, if you are lucky enough to be able to, there are plenty who can't
I couldn't understand many of the Scots singing accents when I first heard them and my dad was born in Glasgow
I remember hearing Matt McGinn playing the gatekeeper in MacBeth at The Edinburgh Festival - couldn't understand a bloody word - he needed subtitles
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 11:14 AM

Well, sorry Jim, but there are more than a few exceptions to trite lyrics in popular song just as there are more than a few exceptions to complex lyrics in folk music. I'm not going to get into an examples war but just ask you to contemplate how many fol-de-rolls and buttercups and daisies crop up in traditional music :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 01:34 PM

" how many fol-de-rolls and buttercups and daisies crop up in traditional music :-)"
Only in Sharp's and Baring Gould's re-writes for schools Dave
Try finding them in field recordings
Still no definition then ?
There is much more n what I said about folk song - surely you're not going to ignore that !
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 02:41 PM

A) You did not ask for a definition
B) You did say "You might try explaining how you would describe a folksong to a newbie"
C) I answered that 17 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM
D) I have already said, at least three times, that just because you do not like my answer does not make it less valid
E) How many times do you want to go round this loop?

One more time now...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 02:45 PM

Jim you are ptronising, why would i not understand a good scottish accent , i have played many times in scotland, have many scottish friends and even had scottish girlfriends[ there was no misunderstandings in the scratcher].

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 03:05 PM

"Jim you are ptronising, why would i not understand a good Scottish accent ,"
Most people I know hve problems with a good Scottish accent Dick - nothing patronising about that
Brits are notoriously bad with both accents and languages

Dave
I asked for a definition - your highly vague description doesn't even count as a good description
I have just given the definition I believe to be the valid one - what's yours
Where does "tradition" and "the Folk" come into your description
I've also gone to great length to describe aspects os folk song to b unique - and answer, came there none
Try again
18 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM
Until you either start responding to what I wrote or come up with an alternative this game of musical chairs will continue
I really don';t mind being the opportunity to sound off - can't see what you're getting out of it
I intend to deal with Howard's posting tomorrow
'The Irish Revolution (magnificent TV series) calls
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM

Jim i am english , i have no problem understanding scottish singers

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 03:21 AM

How many more times, Jim? Your exact words were "You might try explaining how you would describe a folksong to a newbie". It's up there for all to see. As is my response.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 04:00 AM

And I'm saying it is inaccurate and you need to define the term folk if you are going to show you have a case
You wouldn't open a greengrocer's shop if you didn't know what the term meant - why should opening a folk club be any different ?
THe constant misuse of the term (often deliberately) has, in my opinion, not only all but destroyed the club scene, but it has put at risk one of the most important art forms we have
The behaviour of the New Age Researchers seems to have signed the demolition order
Folk song can have no future (other than being hidden away in cupboards until future generations with more sense that the present one) find the key treat it seriously
It has been a source of enjoyment and inspiration for most of my lifetime - now I read about lovers of folk song feeling uncomfortable singing unaccompanied songs or "inappropriate long ballads" at a folk club
You have Rod Stradling's experience and, as far as I can see, there is hardly anybody doing serious work in the U.K. distributing real folk song material that his magazine is
Your description is meaningless in terms of the subject - as much as I enjoy discoursing with you, we rally are going in circles and, unless you respond to my points, will continue to do so
I've responded to every point (and even the abuse) that has been aimed at me - it's somebody else's turn now
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 04:27 AM

But I'm not going to open a folk club. My point is that I have responded to your request to describe folk song to a newbie. It is there for you and everyone else to see yet you keep saying I have not responded. The fact that you dislike and disagree with my description is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 04:27 AM

By the way Dave
"A) You did not ask for a definition"
I asked for a definition way-way back - you said you didn't have one
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 04:51 AM

rod stradlings experience is based on one visit to a folk club in 15 years

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 05:23 AM

My turn....
1      only some kind of eejit would even try to define 'folk'!- as I've said before, it's a subjective judgment & it doesn't really matter anyway- my view is as valid as Jim Carroll's if a little less abrasive!

2 There's no such thing as a Scottish accent any more than there is an Irish or English one- it's total nonsense--- I'm a Geordie- do I have an English accent?


3 I'm not a frequent purchaser of Rod's excellent material on MT, but what he's done over the years is a huge contribution to the archive of less commercial music of the people & his attendance or non-attendance at folk clubs is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 05:55 AM

The question should be not how "folk" should be defined, but what sort of music one can expect to hear at something describing itself as a "folk club". For at least 50 years (from my own personal experience) this has always been considerably wider than only traditional music. The meaning of the term has also widened from when it was originally coined by the early researchers into folklore and folk music - this may be regrettable, but how language evolves is out of anyone's control. "Folk" no longer means traditional music, although it of course includes it, and hasn't for decades.

The exact balance has always varied from club to club. Even back in the day there were clubs who specialised in the sort of "contemporary folk" which essentially means a singer-songwriter with a guitar - not my cup of tea, but fitting in with what the general public now understand by the term "folk". It would be unusual to hear a traditional song in those clubs, but in those days there was probably another club nearby with a different balance, so there was plenty for everyone.

I understand and sympathise with Jim's frustration at going to a "folk club" and not hearing a traditional song. Especially if what is being performed is stretching even the wider popular meaning of "folk", when it should probably be more accurately described as an "open-mic". However old habits die hard, and an open-mic event might imply an emphasis on popular music and actually put off someone wanting to perform traditional or even "folk" songs. At least these days many clubs have a website or Facebook page where you may be able to get some idea what to expect before you go.

Times have changed. Yes,there are far fewer folk clubs, and many of the old clubs are struggling and have had to adapt to survive, and this may not always be for the better. However there are still opportunities to hear and perform traditional songs. Plenty of young people are involved in the music, they are just doing it their own way (as our generation did) so there is no need to fear for the future of folk music, even if it may not resemble what we are familiar with (which would have been equally unfamiliar to previous generations).

Thanks to Rod Stradling, Topic, Veteran Records and others there are more opportunities than ever for people to listen to traditional singing and playing, and again young people are taking advantage of this, as well as listening to our generation who had the opportunity to hear it directly from traditional singers when they were alive.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

"   only some kind of eejit would even try to define 'folk'!"
It's been defined for over a century and a half - history is full of "eejits"
"There's no such thing as a Scottish accent "
Couldn't agree more - my point about Glaswegians singing Aberedeenshire Ballads
Rod probably can't sell his excellent productions of folk material because nobody seems either to know or care what folk song is

Next !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:05 AM

there are scottish accents, and IMO Ewans attempts were not very accurate, and peope do corractly refer to somebody having a scottish accent and yes your wearside accent is an english accent just as geordie is and cockney is.
the point is Ewan IMO failed to get any of the scottish acents accurately

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:18 AM

Ah, Ok, Jim. I sort of assumed that you were saying that you had asked for a definition on this thread. Not referring to ancient history. I have no recollection of that nor of what my response was. If you can point me in the right direction as to where and when this happened I will happily accept that your memory is correct. In the meanwhile, presuming that you want a definition, rather than a description to a newbie, how about...

Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.
The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.
The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.

:D

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

Great Dave - long time since I look at '54
How goes that fit in with your arguments ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:29 AM

Should have added - and then we can go onto all the points I made about what distinguishes folk song from all other forms
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:03 AM

What arguments shall I try to fit it into, Jim? Let me know what you believe I am arguing for or against and I will have a go.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:19 AM

[Seeds of Love]
Full of recorded folk symbolism Jack

So was Schoenberg's "Gurrelieder", or Stravinsky's "Les Noces", or the little songs to folk texts that Webern wrote in the 20s and 30s, or Harrison Birtwistle reusing Gawain. Using that symbolism does not make something a folk song in anybody's reckoning.

the facile outpourings of Lady Gaga !!

Try reading her stuff. She is prolific and very wide-ranging, and a lot of her songs are anything but facile. They don't really fit into any Anglophone folk model but they sometimes aren't so far from the expressive world of Italian folksong (and she is of Italian extraction).

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM

Not being obtuse btw, Jim. I just want to make sure I am not barking up the wrong tree.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:29 AM

'Folk Music' and 'The Tradition' are conceptual constructs of 'Western Art Music'. The terms described material that has survived outside the mainstream, sometimes for centuries. If you pare away all the intellectual encunberage, we are talking about 'old songs' and old tunes' and nothing else.

People like me who came across folk in the 60s got it from radio, TV and college and university. It made sense of the explosive changes we were seeing in popular music and took 'community' from the sole province of the church and out into our own informal experience. It got taken up by commercial music and by politics, in quite different ways.

At it's essence it is still 'old songs' and old tunes'. It has also been a vehicle for creative people to comment on current society and some of that will, almost inevitably, eventually attain the 'old songs' and old tunes' status.

As for the arguments, some people will argue about anything, even if no-one else is bothered. It doesn't change the fact that these are old songs and old tunes and I like them.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 09:12 AM

Stanron
A little more than that unless you disregard the likelihood of people making songs to record everyday events, experiences, emotions and aspirations
I can think of no other group of 'old songs and old tunes'
Songs created following the Irish famine and the period up to Irish independence represent a large body, if not the majority of the Irish folk song repertoire - they bristle with social history and aspirations
The tunes are incidental

"So was Schoenberg's "Gurrelieder", or Stravinsky's "Les Noces","
My point exactly - not imressed with Schoenberg particularly, but I wouldn't write off his or anybody's cmpositions as being insignificat to the human condition as you have "Seeds of Love"
In factJohn England's rendition is a latecomer on the scene; part of a line of versions stacked full of folk imagery - try 'THe Gairdener Child', the song at its best

I just want you to respond to the description I have given and, if you have no quibble with it, let me know how that fits in with what you expect from a folk club - I think you talked about "somewhere between MacColl and Buddy Holly
Not sure what you mean, especially as neither wrote folk songs and the latter was a million miles from doing so
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM

No Dick, my accent is Tyneside, not Wearside- South Shields, my hometown is at least 5 miles from Sunderland, with a seriously different accent- Sunderland is the nearest point on Wearside- I might be a mackem in supporting Sunderland FC but I don't talk about it.....


I don't agree there is such a thing as a Scottish accent- it's just as daft as referring to an English accent!! Or an Irish one, nor that matter- you should know that- I certainly do after living in West Cork, Leitrim & Fermanagh!!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 09:39 AM

I have no quibble with your description other than you seem to be talking about traditional folk song while I am encompassing traditional and contemporary, which is where our wires seem to be crossed.

Please clarify your phrase that you can go to a folk club and hear no folk songs. Are you talking about hearing no traditional songs or hearing no folk songs of either type?

You have recently agreed that you would be happy with an evening of Ewan MacColl, Vin Garbutt and Cyril Tawney songs at a folk club. You would obviously unhappy with an evening of Buddy Holly songs. My point about "between MacColl and Holly", as I have explained before, is that there are millions of songs between those extremes. I was trying to determine at which point does contemporary music become unnacceptable at folk clubs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 10:06 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: Stanron
A little more than that unless you disregard the likelihood of people making songs to record everyday events, experiences, emotions and aspirations

May I refer you to my third paragraph.

"It has also been a vehicle for creative people to comment on current society and some of that will, almost inevitably, eventually attain the 'old songs' and old tunes' status.
"

Woody Guthrie did this, I'm not sure about Tom Lehrer, McColl did it retrospectively as did Eric Bogle. Many 'Singer Songwriters' put themselves forward and only time will tell who gets to last a long time. The famine, and also the Scottish clearances were such traumatic events it would be surprising if no songs survived. Time, and work such as yours, allows the cream to rise to the surface.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 10:36 AM

I wouldn't write off his or anybody's cmpositions as being insignificat to the human condition as you have "Seeds of Love"

I didn't say it was insignificant. (I didn't say Lady Gaga was insignificant, either). I said it didn't fit what you claimed were the basic features of traditional song texts - named people with identifiable occupations doing things that fitted into the traditional economy. [18 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM, I'm not going to quote it all].

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 11:27 AM

Thanks fro your explanation Stanton - my mistake
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 11:33 AM

Stanron - of course
Isn,t Stanton in New Jersey (according to Brecht)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 06:49 AM

Quote ""Tradition" is the largely oral process that first led to the making, remaking and changing of the songs whose origins are virtually untraceable and unattributable"

I like this definition. It is a pity, though that we will never be able to credit the talented broadside makers who composed so many of them.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 07:01 AM

"the talented broadside makers who composed so many of them."
The broadside "hacks" earned their title because they were poor poets working at great speed - the collections of their works show that pretty clearly
There is viritually no evidence as to which folk songs started on the presses and which were taken from already existing forms and rewritten for urban audiences   
The themes and structures of our folk songs, the insider knowledge and the use of vernacular suggest that most of them came from the communities they depicted
The question of literacy still needs to e discussed fully
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 01:30 PM

Quote - "The broadside "hacks" earned their title because they were poor poets working at great speed"

No 'I think that....' No 'It could be that...." Just statements of opinion given as fact. Who is this man? I was thinking of joining this forum but I think this will be my last visit.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 01:42 PM

[ Guest]Jim Carroll was a close friend of MacColl, he has also done some collecting of songs from travellers, he gives the impression of having a hot line to the almighty at times, on the oither hand he does give people on this forum helpful information regarding singing technique etc

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 02:52 PM

"Just statements of opinion given as fact."
Well no actually
The term 'hack' was applied to broadside poetry centuries ago to describe their bad poetry - the writers were expected to work at conveyor-belt speed tu churn out songs for profit- largely it is trite, artless and formulaic
As a singer I spent many weeks searching our own published collections of broadside (about 30 volumes, for songs to sing and came up with zilch   
The few that were singable were almost certainly the other way of the "two way street" described by the New Age researchers - but nobody knows which was which for certain
Child came up with a perfect description of them "Dunghills with a few diamond in their midst"
Not my opinion - a very common one
Do you really have to reduce this to personal insults Dick - pack it in please
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:45 PM

Jim I have not insulted you, youwere a friend of MacColls, you do give useful help on the other hand you do on occasions give the impression of a know all or someone who has a hot line to the almighty, cop on Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:54 PM

Guest: You're going to be put off by one person's opinions? Please note that this is one person shouting from the wilderness. There are very few here who follow that doctrine.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:22 AM

"Please note that this is one person shouting from the wilderness"
How arrogant can you get
Mudcat is a tiny corner of a rapidly diminishing folk scene in Britain Steve
If all you have to offer are disparaging comments like this it you are representative of the wilderness
No wonder folk song is in the state it is in The UK
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:38 AM

I'll look in later to see if anybody has anything to offer other than personal insults
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:33 AM

Someone is being precious about their precious!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:41 AM

a rapidly diminishing folk scene in Britain

Only according to some. Others disagree as we can see from this thread

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:51 AM

" Others disagree as we can see from this thread"
Yeah well - they would wouldn't they
Unfortunately, their own arguments contradict them - as do the figurs
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

What arguments and figures, Jim? The arguments of those that actually attend folk clubs maybe? And the only figures I have seen indicate that we are in the process of a growth in folk music and changes to how it is presented. What figures do you have that indicate otherwise. All I have seen from you is anecdotal evidence.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

The attendance figures have plummeted - Can't remember if you are one of them, but some have excused this as 'oldies dying off' so someone seems to agree with me
The clubs have diminished in number - acknowledged by people who clain that festivals are the thing now or people are singing at home (this information has been gathered by spy cameras presumably)
THere can be litle doubt that people have turned away from folk song by the number of people who make excuses for there being no guarantee to hear a folk song in a folk club any more
Not anecdotal Dave - actual statements here
I started a thread based on Rod Stradling's declarations of plummeting sales - more figures
People are not only not willing to discuss this situation, but resort to insults when the matter is raised
You are one of the 'good guys' as far as I'm concerned, yet your persistent complacency depresses me - "if you want to hear good folk songs come to Yorkshire" is just that
EFDSS had always been the butt of jokes - now they have even ceased to be funny
An the research side, we have ivory tower researchers who respond to criticism with patronising and insulting and seem to have dedicated themselves to tearing down all past work to make room for their own - Dave Harker's 'Hit-list technique.
Discussions like this have made me more-or-less write off the English folk scene - my concern is now for the survival of what I consider the most important of our art forms
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:02 AM

I started a thread based on Rod Stradling's declarations of plummeting sales

That is anecdotal, Jim.

anecdotal
Dictionary result for anecdotal
/?an?k'd??tl/
adjective
adjective: anecdotal

    (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

I agree entirely that the heady days of the 60s folk club boom is well gone but since the turn of the millennium the folk scene has been showing a steady growth. Albeit not in the direction you want it grow.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:07 AM

How can a declaration by a site owner that his sames of traditional material be 'anecdotal' Dave - maybe he doesn't count how many he sells !!
The scene levelled out after the 60s and created a foundation for folk music
That was still reasonably healthy well into the 1980s and beyond
This depressing situation is very much a part of what is happening today
Think I'll go out for some fresh air
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM

I agree that his CD sales are down but I thought we were talking folk club scene, not CD sales, Jim. How can CD sales from a web site be indicative of folk club attendance?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:55 AM

I can also refer you to the Wiki article which you previously dismissed that states

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music and there are now over 160 folk clubs in the United Kingdom, including many that can trace their origins back to the 1950s including The Bridge Folk Club in Newcastle (previously called the Folk Song and Ballad club) claims to the oldest club still in existence in its original venue (1953)

Going on to say

The nature of surviving folk clubs has also changed significantly, many larger clubs use PA systems, opening the door to use of electric instruments, although drums and full electric line-ups remain rare. The mix of music often includes American roots music, blues, British folk rock, and world music as well as traditional British folk music. From 2000 the BBC Radio 2 folk awards have included an award for the best folk club

You can dismiss Wiki articles all you like but, until you come up with a valid alternative, I am going to take this one at face value.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM

" can also refer you to the Wiki article which you previously dismissed that states"
You can - and it's full of folk superstars with no reference to the clubs
Desperate measures Dave
You have the alternative - dwindling clubs, disappearing membership, desperately low sales of traditional material - and all the excuses that have been put up here
As far as folk song proper, the scene is virtually dead - even EFDSS has walked away from it
Of all the things I have put up, what is inaccurate - low numbers, disappearing clubs, a shift to paid performers, hostility towards traditional songs..... all from these arguments
Have I lied - have I dreamed these arguments ?
Wiki my arse
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:33 AM

it's full of folk superstars with no reference to the clubs

Jim, did you not even read the bit I posted? The one that says

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music and there are now over 160 folk clubs in the United Kingdom, including many that can trace their origins back to the 1950s including The Bridge Folk Club in Newcastle (previously called the Folk Song and Ballad club) claims to the oldest club still in existence in its original venue (1953)

How is that not referring to folk clubs?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM

If you measure the strength of the folk scene only by the number of folk clubs you'll get a very misleading view of what is going on. Whilst the old-style folk clubs are diminishing in number (along with the old-style folkies who attend them) the folk scene is developing in other ways. There are still plenty of clubs in the old style, run by younger people, but also more concerts in venues other than the back room of pubs. House concerts are widespread, but are often only advertised by word of mouth so they remain under the radar. The programme of folk festivals is full throughout much of the year, and these range from large concert events with headline names to small sessions of traditional singing and playing. There is plenty going on, with something for everyone.

As well as performances, there are plenty of workshops in singing and playing at venues all around the country, so the opportunities to learn are much greater than when I started out, when I had to teach myself.

Young people are involved in large numbers, and often sing and play to a far higher standard. They're just not doing it in the old folk clubs.

Young people in particular don't buy CDs, they download music to their phones. More than 1/3 of the sales of my band's CD have come via the internet, although admittedly that includes purchases of physical CDs. Our music has been listened to in more than 30 countries world-wide, thanks to being online.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:55 AM

We also have the issue of what is defined as folk. I think Jim will correct me if I am wrong but I think he is defining folk as traditional only and that could well be on the decline. But the rest of us are, I think, encompassing contemporary folk as well. As I said before, we all could be part right. Maybe traditional folk is being superseded by contemporary folk just as the old style folk clubs are being superseded by the new. Not good if you want to preserve the old songs but good for the development the new!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 08:25 AM

"160 folk clubs"
My point exactly Dave
There were that many within a driving distance of my home in London at the beginning of the 1990s - and I would guess that would be the case in all the major cities
Taking the examples of what constitutions 'folk song' and add that to what is being argued for here, I would think a quarter of that figure would be a generous guess at how many of those 160 clubs cater for folk song lovers (I know what I mean by folk song - nobody has come up with an alternative yet) You are dinging yourself into a very deep hole here.
There is not enough traditional song on line to even scratch the surface of the riches that have been commented
Where can I 'download' any good traditional material - I can listen to a little
The fact that Terry Yarnell and I can't give away one of the largest and wide-ranging collections of traditional song, music, workshops, articles, films.... of traditional music in private hands says what needs to be said about the current interest in it.
I am talking about traditional and traditional based songs - anybody can write a song in any form and call it folk - the term has become totally meaningless
Most newly written songs cone with a little (c) which confines their use to where the copyright cowboys can't reach
I am concerned about folk song; full stop - you have yet to define what you are talking about
Folk song as an art form, reaches far beyond the DWINDLING clubs - it is what is says it is THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE
That is what is being silenced by this apathy and indifference
Both irresponsible and sad
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM

Jim. The article clearly states that "The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends. In London Les Cousins in Greek Street, where John Renbourn often played, and The Scots Hoose in Cambridge Circus, were both casualties.[13] The Singers Club (George IV, Lincoln's Inn) closed its doors in 1993.

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music..."

So, the early 90s to which you refer were already on the decline and reached it's low in the mid 90s. As well as the decline through the 80s, it also makes the point that folk clubs are changing so, even though you may not accept that, it is a fact of life. Given what Howard and a number of other people have said about new venues, concerts and all sorts of other options there is plenty of actual evidence from people on the ground here in England that the picture is nowhere near as bleak as you paint it.

Sorry that you have lost a number of traditional clubs and feel that you can no longer participate in the music you prefer at folk clubs but there is still plenty of good quality folk music, of all types, for the rest of us to enjoy.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM

Oh, and 300! :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:06 AM

If the hoary handed sons of the soil in days of yore had the same   opportunities as available today, they would have been after copyright and a few bob just like rats up a drainpipe. The world has changed. To have traditional means of generating folksongs means to be trapped in a timewarp. To use a word such as traditional has the implicit meaning that the genre is fossilized.
What gives anyone the right to say that a modern derivative is in some way pseudo or even fake.
The car has replaced the horse. Does anyone have a problem with that?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:10 AM

you have yet to define what you are talking about

I have defined what I was talking about on a number of occasions and you keep denying it. The latest was 19 Feb 19 - 06:18 AM It is there for all to see so why do you keep saying I have not defined it?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:23 AM

Dave,
I see litle point in continuing a discussion with anybody who believes 160 Folk clubs represents a healthy scene - especially as most of them have little to do with folk song proper
Your definition is the 1954 definition which, for all its weaknesses, bears no resemblance to what happens in the majority of your 160 clubs in your healthy folk scene.
I see little point in all this - when I get time I'm going to deal with Howard's earlier posting amnd his interesting question on the toxic thread
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:40 AM

Clubs are now only part of the picture. You seem to keep missing that point. The 160 clubs are in addition to the hundreds of other ways that live folk music can now be enjoyed.

Your definition is the 1954 definition which, for all its weaknesses, bears no resemblance to what happens in the majority of your 160 clubs

The 1954 definition includes contemporary folk song and songs which have been absorbed into the community.

The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.

Your definition specifically excludes contemporary folk song. That is the whole bone of contention. I am happy to accept this definition and can confirm that music that fits this definition is readily available at many places, including but not limited to folk clubs, all across the country.

As long as you keep making sweeping statements about the current folk scene that I disagree with I shall keep pulling you up on it. And if you keep saying that I have not defined it or I am happy with any old rubbish I shall keep refuting that too. Sorry but that is the way I am.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:51 AM

Jim,from your post above

"Most newly written songs cone with a little (c) which confines their use to where the copyright cowboys can't reach"

What is your problem with a songwriter copyrighting his/her own work?

If Ewan hadn't done so with "The First Time Ever" I am sure that he would have been considerably less well off than he was following the hit recording. With luck his estate is still earning reasonably well and why shouldn't it?

From what Peggy states in one of her books she and Ewan were pretty chuffed when they received the first royalty cheque from that song.

Do you have any personal knowledge of how royalties collection works?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 10:28 AM

"What is your problem with a songwriter copyrighting his/her own work? "
None whatever, but while it is owned it will never be a folk song

"You seem to keep missing that point."
No Dave - you are - this is the point
"been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community."

The 45 definition (which I never discuss or use) talk about songs being adapted and changed and taken on by communities as their own - that can never happen to copyrighted songs - they always belong to someone other than 'the folk'
It is the changes and adaptations that that create folk songs, not repetition
Much more to it than that, of course

As long as you keep putting forward 180 cli=uns as a healthy scene, we have no grounds for discussion
A scene dominated by Festivals and paid singers is the antithesis of a healthy scene
Howard raised an important question on the toxic thread concerning how you follow up the idea that 'anybody can sing' (which I heartily agree with) by not upsetting audiences that come to hear a reasonable level of singing
Quite honestly, I think it far more fruitful to follow that uo rhater than go around in these ever-decreasing circles and ending up disappearing upour own jaxies
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 10:33 AM

Illustration of Dave and Howard's point: an event I played at last year was a party-cum-house-concert that was never advertised in any public medium. In a large top floor flat, it must have had more people packed in than Edinburgh and Leith Folk Clubs could ever have fitted into their venues put together (one guy in our band is a civil engineer who specializes in the conservation of historic structures - he spent much of the evening gripping the windowsill calculating floor loadings in his head). Almost all the music played fitted the 1954 definition though none of it was from the British Isles or North America (that might well come, some other time). I can't imagine anybody there would have thought "pity this isn't a folk club".

The impression I get from the early publications of the postwar folk scene is that nobody involved expected clubs to be more than a transient phenomenon. They were right: the clubs had a job to do, they did it, end of story.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 10:46 AM

It is the changes and adaptations that that create folk songs, not repetition

Of course it is. What we disagree about is "that can never happen to copyrighted songs". Of course it can and has on many occasions. The definition contains no such exclusion. In fact it specifically says it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer. Any song after copyright was introduced is likely to be copyrighted by the individual composer and many of those have now been absorbed into folk communities. Are you trying to tell us that "The Manchester Rambler" has not been absorbed into Manchester folklore? Or that "Fiddlers Green" is not sung as a folk song in venues all around the coast?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 11:22 AM

I think the figure of 160 clubs is suspect. A quick look at the North West Federation of Folk Clubs website shows around 50 in this region alone.

http://www.folknorthwest.co.uk/club_page.htm

These are only clubs which are members of the federation so there are probably others.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 11:56 AM

"that can never happen to copyrighted songs".
Of course it can't today Dave - how can it ?

Moving on
Howard - been meaning to respond to your point for some time
The scene you describe was certainly not mine the ealy clubs based themselves largely on what became available after the BBC project - there may have been quibbles as to how that should be performed but there was little argument as to what it was.
Music Hall and Victorian parlour ballads hardly ever featured - the Topic output is evidence of that
I can'r recall hearing much in the four three cities I've lived in
When Dylan arrived on the scene singing songs based on folk songs the clubs divided - in Manchester, you wanted traditional stuff you went to one of Harry Boardman's clubs (I was resident at two - you wanted singer-songwriter stuff you went to The Shaespeare Head or the MSG (on nights where they booked em' - they kept si.S. and trad separate
I desperately tried to like Dylan because al my mates did but found his compositions trite and meaningless
His early protest songs I could take or leave (lovely article by a writer who called himself 'Jack Speedwell' summed him up perfectly in one of Dallas's magazines.
I stopped trying to like him when I read an article by American actor/singer Theodore Bikel describing how this 'protest singer' refused to accompany Seeger and co South to take part in the sit-in Civil Rights Protests until he was handed his fare publicly and couldn't refuse
When Baez's biography came out Dylan was exposed as using his friends as a stairway to stardom - in the end he found his place in history a a pop singer - 'It's all Over Now, baby Blue' was his exit song
The two styles of 'folk' co-existed rather than co-operated
Sing-around clubs were virtually unheard of

You raised an interesting point on the toxic thread - how can you bring new singers on without offending audiences who turned up to hear reasonably sung songs
After the setting up of The Critics Group, a dozen or so similar ventures sprang up I ran one in Manchester before I left for London
MacColl and the Critics were urging clubs to assist less experienced singers and people began to volunteer to do so
I'd been in London about a month when Dick Snell knocked on my door asking could we work together
I agree with you totally that anybody can sing - but this needs encouragement and practical help - you really won't get that on a scene based on festivals and paid gigs
Sorry if I missed anything else you asked
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:16 PM

but this needs encouragement and practical help - you really won't get that on a scene based on festivals and paid gigs"
i can give you two examples that contradict this statement, southend folk club which at that time was run by red and myra abbott, gave and paid for singers, out of club funds the opportunity to go to festival workshops to improve their singing
LEWES FOLK CLUB, runs workshops to encourage and help singers and musicians
Fastnet Maritime AND FOLK Festival , WHICH FOR 8 YEARS PROVIDED SUBSIDISED WORKSHOPS, to help and encourage musicians.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM

Fiddlers green, caledonia, two comosed modern songs ,hav been mistaken by many as folk songs, and have been sungs with an assumption they were irish trad songs at cce competitions and GAA IRISH SONG COMPETITIONS, and the judges never realised

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:27 PM

Dick
In my experience, Festival workshops consist of groups of people being handed song-sheets of songs they may or may not know or even like, and asked them to sing them parrot-fashion
In a weekend festival situation, there is no time for the necessary follow-up work - it really can't be done in a matter of hours.
Lewes has a club wich is what I'm advocating for
These workshops, once established are simplicity itself given the generosity of those prepared to help and the trust of those wanting to be helped
It can actually be done on a one-on-one basis, but groups are far more efficient - that way, both helpers and helped benefit
Pat and I set up a couple when we gave talks at the two Ewan MacColl weekends in Salford - enjoyable and productive but each time, desperately in need of follow-up work
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:30 PM

Jim,

It would appear that copyright on a song at present lasts until 70 years -it used to be much less- after the death of the author. Therefore it would appear that in 40 years time any of Ewan's songs if they are still sung would be non-cop and could be considered folk songs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:31 PM

Can I just add that at present, I'm exploring the possibility of setting an on-line workshop in cooperation with our local heritage group - OaC, exchanging both ideas and recorded material
My technical knowledge is extremely limited but I think i might be possible
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:47 PM

Are we in a pantomime Jim? Oh yes it can. Oh no it can't! :-)

Of course copyrighted songs can be absorbed into folk communities. I gave you two examples and there are many more.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 01:14 PM

" they are still sung would be non-cop and could be considered folk songs."
They can only be "considered" folk songs if they are absorbed as part of communities with a living tradition that enables them to become folk songs
Surely you're not suggesting that every song over 7 years old is or can become a folk song
Dave - Manchester hasn't had a living tradition since at least the middle of the Industrial Revolution
You don't "age" into a folk sog, you evolve into one - passively receiving and repeating parrot fashion would make 'God Save the Queen' and 'Happy Birthday to you folk songs - absorption, acceptance and ownership are part of the proicess
Sorry - unless we stop repeating things at each other I really have no desire to continue this
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:15 PM

If you really want to end this circular argument, stop stating that the folk scene is dead then! As long as you keep repeating that, I will keep disputing it. It is no good you saying you want to end it and then coming up with the same old thing at every opportunity

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:18 PM

And what's this new nonsense about Manchester not having a living tradition? There is an unbroken record of scrapping with Scousers :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:33 PM

Dave- you gave me the figures - 180 clubs
If it's not dead it's on life support - I've seen Cancer patients gasping their last in better health than that
And even over half of those figures almost certainly have SFA to do with folk song proper
Can I suggest that if we are going to discuss things like "folk" and "tradition" you dig out 'Folk Song in England' - Bert's not the erzatz one
Then we might stop talking at cross-purposes
It's highly readable and fairly precise - and it doesn't come with an agenda (even though it falls short sometimes)
When have Mancunians ever been able to hold their own with Scousers ?
Certainly not in my time
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:46 PM

Ey up. Fightin' talk!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 03:02 PM

Jim,

If you checked what you post here before hitting the send key it might save time and confusion.

It might also help if you read other peoples posts and digested them before firing off at half cock.

I did not state 7 year old songs nor even 70 year old songs.

I doubt also that even the songs which you are happy to call folk songs survived without being repeated. Walter Pardon would never have learnt many of his songs without hearing his uncle repeatedly singing them unless he had a photographic memory. AND before you misconstrue that I AM NOT belittling Walter.

Also I did say "could be" and not "would be".

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 03:08 PM

Jim, we have clearly had very different experiences. My experience was of clubs outside the cities, in towns and villages mainly around London but also further afield. Also, it touched only the very tail end of the 60s and really covered the 70s and 80s, so we were separated by both time and geography, although not by much. Most of these clubs had started up in the 60s and I doubt they had changed very much by the time I started going to them.

As well as the clubs around Essex where I grew up. I then went to university in Reading and attended clubs there. Later, I travelled a lot for work, and took the opportunity to visit other clubs all around the country. I even gigged at a few. Eventually I moved to Cheshire and went to clubs there and in Manchester. I have experienced quite a lot of clubs all around the country and I feel these were typical of clubs at that time.

All these clubs were broadly similar in their approach and most operated the floor-singers with guest structure. The range of music was similar to that which DgT quoted from Wikipedia, including American roots music, blues, contemporary folk, and world music, although traditional British folk music dominated the clubs I went to. None of the clubs in my experience provided the kind of intellectual approach that you describe - we were there for entertainment and never discussed the music in a club setting.

If your experience was typical of how clubs were in the early 60s, it suggests to me that most had evolved into something different by the end of that decade. The folk clubs continued to thrive through the 70s and 80s. I suspect the reason they then went into decline was that their core audience became preoccupied by family and professional commitments - that was certainly my own reason for stopping.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 03:11 PM

A sensible and fair posting as always, Howard.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:01 PM

Glad it's not just me :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:43 PM

Dave, your medal's in the post!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:45 PM

I had the same experience as Howard, in fact the first folk club , i walked in to in themid sixties aged 14 was Downe folk club , the first people i saw a split gig joe stead and ralph mctell, inhose days ralp mctell played blind blake songs , joe stead sang a lot of pete seegers repertoire joe hill etc

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 03:18 AM

"If your experience was typical of how clubs were in the early 60s, "
My Experience stretched into the mid to late eighties - mainly in London, but visits elsewhere suggested that London was not untypical
If yours was an example of 'evolution' (I would choose the term deterioration) it wasn't happening there
I can think of many clubs that specialiased in the real thing - 'The Empress of Russia', 'Herga', 'The Fox', The Kings Head', 'Croydon', 'The Railway' at Stratford East ...
where you were guaranteed to hear folk songs
There weer others that did other things
I was actively involved in several - 'Court House Sessions', 'The Tradition Cub', 'The Metropolitan'.... never an introspective navel-gazer to be heard mumbling his/her incomprehensible angst into a guitar
My main base was 'The Singers' because I knew I could wuld never fail to hear good traditional songs well sung, along with new ones not designed to give you jet-lag because they were so different from the rest
That included until shortly after Ewan died, till Peggy returned to America.
The 'evolution' you describe, by presenting non-folk songs, robbed us of our right to choose what we listened to - it was a misuse of a well-established term
That misuse, along with lowering standards and the lazy contempt of singers who couldn't be bothered learning the songs they sang, drove me and thousands like me out of the clubs
I was lucky - right into the present century I had our Traveller singers to listen to and continue to receive information from
That luck continued when we moved to Ireland, where we could continue to hear good folk music and songs that have become part of our lives - never though I'd say it, but here in Miltown Malbay, sometimes too much to choose from
Ireland is rapidly building a love and respect for its traditional arts, whereas it seems England (can't speak of Scotland) seems to have lost what they had of it.
I can only think of one club in London, my old home, that I can now confidently go to hear the music I want to - The Musical Traditions Club - can't really think of another
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 03:54 AM

I think we just move in different circles and like different things, Jim. Nothing wrong with that but sadly, for you, you seem to be in the minority. I am lucky in that my likes and my locality do include what is, for me, a great mix of trad and contemporary. As seems to be the case with most posting on here. Just down to personal taste. You either like the music that is being presented or don't. I do.

I think all I can say to conclude is that I accept that the music you like has suffered at the hands of the music that others like. I can apologise for that but I am not in a position to do anything about it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 04:29 AM

"Nothing wrong with that but sadly, for you, you seem to be in the minority. "
Depends on how far you look Dave
I don't believe for one minute that those who left in despair lost their love of the real thing
I do wish you'd stop using the term "like" as if his is based on personal taste
Folk song is a long defined and established form which I believe has been hijacked and replaced by something else - go into the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library - they have lined the walls with it
If you, who holds the social and humanist views I believe you do, don't understand its importance compared to the replaceable pap churned out by the music industry, then you've missed out
This really does have nothing to do with 'like' but I believe it has a great to do with dislike and failure to understand or care
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:05 AM

Well I would simply beg to differ ~ hijacked is perhaps too strong a word "traditional song" and songs collected from all sorts of singers in the dim and distant have been recorded by collectors and digitized and put into books are just that and form a ready source for up and coming and established singers too to perform

And long may it be so ~ however certainly in my living memory other "new" folk songs (or however you would wish to call them) have existed and not just from the popular (o dear) singers such as Bert Lloyd, MacColl, Tawney, MacTell, and of course we cannot ignore the likes of other guests who may or may not have Americana, blues and other musics which they performed in folk clubs in the 1960s

Folk song ~ depending upon how you define it ~ must include songs which comment on the doings of the day or recent past ~ often newsworthy but always so!

Folk song is and always was meant to be entertainment for the masses ~ before the age of Newspapers (no doubt it can be argued that Broadsides were indeed early Broadside Newpapers!)

"Masses" may of course need to be qualified


Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:07 AM

I would prefer to see more folk clubs providing singing workshops and instrumental workshops.
I do not want to go to a folk club and hear buddy holly,cliff richard, rockj and roll.
i do not mind clubs advertising as folk blues or singer songwriter only or trad only, at least we know what we might be in for.
although most clubs in the past found a mixture of the last two to be a successful formula.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM

I once heard Fred Jordan sing 'Oh Boy' in his lovely quavering traditional style- how does that fit in?

'All my love, all my kissin'
You don't know what you been missin'

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:42 AM

compared to the replaceable pap churned out by the music industry

Absolutely agree, Jim. Where we disagree is that not all contemporary music comes under the heading "replaceable pap" and there is plenty contemporary folk music that sits very comfortably in folk clubs. And that is where likes and dislikes come in to it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:50 AM

....Jim Copper and his brother John sang "Old Rockin' Chair" learned from a Louis Armstrong 78. Several such pop songs in the original Copper Family song book. They all shared one quality with the older songs in the book in that they were bloody good songs to sing..... Vic Legg singing great Everly Brothers' songs alongside "The Game of All Fours"... Johnny Doughty's pub repertoire.....

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 06:09 AM

At all the clubs I went to you could expect to hear mostly traditional songs, if that is what you mean by "folk". You could also expect to hear other songs which fall within the wider meaning of "folk" - I know you deplore that usage and I sympathise, but it is now how the word is generally understood,and the clock cannot be turned back.

I don't think I've ever heard a Buddy Holly song performed seriously in a folk club, although I have once or twice heard one done tongue-in-cheek as an encore after a set of largely traditional songs.

I went to the Empress of Russia a couple of times when I briefly lived in London, and I distinctly recall Bob Davenport singing several songs which I would not regard as traditional. However that was around 1980 so perhaps it had 'deteriorated' by then.

There were certainly a few clubs known for having a "trad only" policy but they were regarded as something out of the ordinary. I don't think the term "folk police" had been invented then. I think you must have been fortunate to be able to attend clubs which had this, or something close, but except possibly at the very beginning of the folk club boom (which I didn't experience) I doubt they were typical. Through most of the boom period, which I regard as having continued through the 70s and 80s, I would say clubs of the sort I attended were more typical - predominantly British traditional song but with a variety of other stuff. That seems to be the experience of others too.

I strongly disagree with your claim that this broader interpretation of "folk" prevented me from hearing and performing traditional songs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 06:20 AM

"Jim Copper and his brother John sang "Old Rockin' Chair"
So ?
"and form a ready source for up and coming and established singers too to perform"
You have to create an interest for that material - that's what the revival did and that interest was destroyed by a hostile takeover
Most of the best of the collected material remains unavailable except to those who are knowledgeable enough to know where to look
The power of the club days was that the enjoyment of folk song could be shared and discussed - not the same as experiencing it on i phones and computers
Dave
Some pop songs may have merits but their life span tends to suggest not many - try asking the views of a youngster today of a vople of years old hit-parader
Beside the point anyway, anybody with a tase for pop music will go to the cream (with a small C) for it rather than sit through wannabes making a fifth rate balls of it

"'All my love, all my kissin'"
Heard a cruelly misogynistic rewrite of this concerning breast cancer once
I suppose some would regard it a 'folk song'
"trad only,"
Not my taste but it's perfectly acceptable that some clubs confine themselves to the real thing if that's what they wish - they certainly aren't breaking any commitments they make by calling themselves 'folk'
At least you know what you are getting compared to.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 06:48 AM

Last night's offerings at a "session" night at our local "Folk Club" (Yes that IS how it is how it is titled) consisted of an all songs evening that lasted for four hours and in all that time I only heard two songs that I would call "folk songs". The rest, for the most part, were meaningless ramblings, devoid of any narrative or message that in terms of tune or lyric were instantly forgettable.

As Jim Carroll has repeatedly stated, it has indeed been a long time since "Folk Clubs" did what it says on the tin.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM

It's that repeated experience that drove so may out of the club scene, given the response here, I think it's set fair to continue unles those who care do something about it   
I actually heard a fairly competent singer apologise once for interrupting the session by singing a folk song - I took her as being ironic
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 12:49 PM

"You have to create an interest for that material - that's what the revival did and that interest was destroyed by a hostile takeover

Most of the best of the collected material remains unavailable except to those who are knowledgeable enough to know where to look"

Nope the interest for folk song had already been there ~ yes the revivalist singers were able to access material from many sources including EFDSS publications, Lloyd, MacColl, Seeger (Pete), Donegan ~ the place for performance was of course by and large the folk club movement ~~ as a natural extension of Jazz clubs and skiffle and of course music halls and the usual Saturday night home made music round the piano ~ Hostile ~ well I don't recognize that quality ~ ppl have enjoyed making music themselves for generations as entertainment

I do think that the Traditional music collections should be made more available and that is "Our" mission and that of the likes of MT and EFDSS (among others)


Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 12:50 PM

Howard -The Empress of Russia had famously catholic tastes in the music, and made no apology for it either. That's maybe why I was asked there often enough despite my repertoire including my own versions of songs also sung by Buddy Holly, the Drifters & Paddy Roberts, with melodeon accompaniment.

nb haven't mentioned 'traditional' or 'folk' in this post- too provocative in some quarters.....

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 12:57 PM

Some pop songs may have merits

I'm not talking about pop songs. I am talking about contemporary folk songs. Things like "Claire to here", "Sammy's bar" or even "Dirty old town". I suspect you know that and are just being awkward.

Teribus. Why do you keep going then?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 01:11 PM

" I am talking about contemporary folk songs."
Sigh
Why put them up; they are contemporary songs using folk forms (except the first) - nobody is objecting to them being sung in folk clubs
I'm talking about the crap that has nothing to do with Folk song in any shape or form
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:03 PM

I have always been talking about contemporary folk song. You know, like the ones I just mentioned. The ones that are copyrighted, like the songs you say can never be folk songs. Where is your dividing line between what should and should not be sung at folk clubs. Why could I sing Ewan MacColl's Dirty Old Town but not Ed Sheran's Gallway Girl? Just what is the difference between the two apart from you like one and not the other?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:14 PM

Oh, just noticed the comment about Clare to here. Can anyone explain to me, a non musicologist, why Dirty Old Town is a contemporary folk song while From Clare to here is not? This is the bit I really don't understand.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:16 PM

The Empress of Russia was a great venue. Saturday lunchtimes were very enjoyable a good mixture of singers and musicians. I don't know if the organisers were the same folk who ran the regular club but it was a very enjoyable place to spend an hour or two before or after visiting the west end record and book specialists.

I happened to be at the final night of the club a few days before the "Empress" closed to be converted into a restaurant. That night was mostly old time fiddles and banjos with a couple of bluegrass pickers thrown into the mix.

I may be mistaken here but doesn't this club still continue as the Islington Folk Club which has operated from several different pubs around the Islington area for years.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:33 AM

Howard , you obviously did not hear Andy Caven.
Jim Bainbridge, I dont care whetherthe singer was a traditional singer or a revival singer, i can here pop songs anywhere, when i go to folk clubs i want to hear songs of a certain genre,m thats my choice i am quite happylistening to martin carthy leon rosselson or a blues singer under my own defintiuon this is all folk music, cliff richard, buddy holly,beegees is not what i want to hear. if i went to a jazz club i do not want to heardanielo donnell, ok

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM

"why Dirty Old Town is a contemporary folk song while From Clare to here is not? "
Who said either was a "folk" anything - you are the one who attaches the label to newly written songs made using the folk techniques, not me
I beileve one uses folk techniques in its make up, while one is singer-songwriterish, but it's probably nit-picking and unimportant
Neither are folk songs
You keep talking about what you "can and can't" sing - you carry the rule-book, not me
This is basically the dishonesty of these arguments - you invent "rules" that people have to adhere to
Can you find anything I have written which says that
When MacColl, Seeger, did the Radio Ballads they based the music on folk styles - mainly, 'John Axon' used jazz forms - even well known jazz instrumentalists
Singing the Fishing - mainly folk forms, but slap in the middle - a bit of Gilbert and Sullivan
'On the Edge' - pop song techniques of the early 60s
One of the best evenings I attended in the early days was around the time MacColl was given a part in a television series, 'The Borderers' and invited the star, Ian Cuthbertson, along to the club to do a night of poetry and song swapping - half of the evening had very little to do with folk

A healthy folk scene can experiment in all directions - it can broaden its influences and horizons by doing so
We don't have a healthy folk scene (how many clubs again?)
The problem is that, as Observer indicated, the basis of o=the folk scene - folk song, has been edged out to make room for something else - that 'something else' has no identity because it has no homogeneity - anything goes and 'folk' has become meaningless.

The other thing that has gone seriously wrong is that it has returned to the very thing it was set up to escape from
We first took up skiffle to make our on music - a way for us all to express ourselves freely without having to wait till the industry decided what was to be the next 'flavour of the month'
What we did happened o a weekly basis and was spread around so wide that we could fill our week visiting different clubs if we wanted
Now people talkk about 'annual festivals' as being a substitute and the god-awful media 'folk-singer-of-the-year' often mediocre displays of 'excellence' as an aim


Will you please stop keep suggesting that I am making rules - I am not
I am suggesting that the folk scene bike has a bad puncture which needs repairing      
As a researcher I will endevour to be accurate when talking or writing about what I know to be folk song - if I ever forget what it is there are thousands of places I can go to remind me
As a singer and listener, I am quite happy to go home having heard enough folk or folk-based songs for the evening to have lived up to its original description - a few diversions don't matter too much as long as there are not too many for the objective to have been lost
When push comes to shove, it is folk song that matters - the enjoyment that comes with it is an essential bonus - the petrol that make it go

Hoot
We seem to be at cross purposes
The Empress of Russia events I am referring to were Thursday(I think) nights devoted largely to traditional singing
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:53 AM

Dick, what about Martin Carthy singing "Rave On", "Nothing Rhymed" or "The lonesome death of Hattie Carroll"?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:06 AM

No, Jim. I am trying to get to the bottom of an apparent contradiction.

You complain that you do not hear folk songs at folk clubs yet you have confirmed that you would be happy going to a folk club to listen to Ewan MacColl, Vin Garbutt and Cyril Tawney songs all night. You are now saying that those songs are not and never can be folk songs. You cannot have it both ways.

I think when you complain about not hearing folk songs you are talking about traditional folk songs. If that is the case I could accept that. What you will not commit yourself on is which contemporary folk songs you are happy listening to. You would be happy with Ewan, Vin and Cyril, but not with, for instance, Ralph McTell. Why is that? To me, and many others, they are all contemporary Folk.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM

"Rave On",
You seem to be coming around to my point of view
What the **** has Rave in got to do with folk song and why should it be inflicted on a folk audience ?
If I wanteds to hear it again I could easily search out the good version by The Crickets rather than a naff one from Marin Carthy
Everyone to his own
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:12 AM

"Everyone to his own". So we're done then.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:15 AM

Just getting Dick to clarify, Jim. He says he would be happy with Martin Carthy but not with pop songs. Yet I have named 2 pop songs and one commercial (Dylan) song that Carthy sings. Is it the performance or content that is more important. These are the grey areas that I am interested in.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:38 AM

The two po songs have no place in folk clubs in my opinion - leave them to the experts in the field
I was never interested too much in Zimmerman's stuff (if people insist in talking about Jimmy Miller I think I'll give Zimmerman and John Pandrich a try) and wouldn't break my neck to listen to it - it doesn't resemble folk as I know it ut as I say - you're the one carrying the rule book - not me
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM

Should have added
Nit-picking such as this helps avoid the real discussion on the responsibility of the clubs who call themselves 'folk' to the music whose name they have stolen
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:45 AM

I went to my local folk music recently, and at the end of the evening it ocurred to me that the only trad song sung all evening was the opening number ( whichis always the same song).
   As to whether a Ewan Mccoll composition is more acceptable than a Ralph McTell song, well,I would say, that Ewan did try to write most of his songs "in the tradition".
Of course, there is that famous story that McColl tells about singing his composition "The Shoals of Herrng" to a trad singer ( Sam Larner?), and the trad singer saying that he remembered the song from his youth ( i.e. long before McColl wrote it).
   We can never, I don't think, get back to the days when trad songs dominated the folk club repertoire but I think we would all like to hear a lot more trad songs in our local folk song clubs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:01 AM

Ewan always took Sam's remarks as a compliment
'Shoals' was largely taken from actuality recordings of Sam and Skipper, Ronnie Balls talking about the old days -
You can trace much of it from the recordings - the tune was an adaptation of a ballad tune from The Greig Keith collection 'Famous Flower of Serving men' - Ewan used it for a number of his songs
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:15 AM

Dave , my opinion is that hattie carroll is a badly written song, although good subject matter, nothing rhymed is imo a well written song, rave on is not a song i wish to hear in a folk club, i have not heard carthys version, andy caven sang the song well,but it is not what i want to hear.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,keith price
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:16 AM

Tunesmith if we're talking about the same club and I think we are. I sang and played trad, other than that I agree with you.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:18 AM

dave the gnome , why are you asking me this?i have never objected to well written songs in a folk style?,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:21 AM

Jim,

Just to clarify re the Empress of Russia, I did say that I didn't know if the Saturday sessions were organised by the same folk that did the regular club.

The final night that I referred to was a regular club night.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM

If someone suggests that they can no longer hear folk songs at folk clubs it is not nitpicking to try and find out what they consider to be songs that they are happy with at folk clubs. I, amongst many, consider contemporary folk songs to have their rightful place in folk clubs. I think that you agree. And we are in complete agreement over what constitutes a traditional folk song.

What I am trying to get to the bottom of is what you consider to be a contemporary folk song and why. We know you think MacColl, Garbutt and Tawney write songs employing "folk techniques" but you do not consider that McTell or Sheran do. This is what I really do not understand.

When I hear, for instance, "Hiring Fair" or "Gallway Girl" I hear distinct folk undertones. Do you not? If I am hearing them "wrong", can anyone tell me why? What about two of my favourites, Richard Thompsons, "Vincent Black Lightning" or Anthony John Clarke's "Irish Eyes". Are they contemporary folk or "replaceable pap"?

As to rules, nah, I don't have a book. I can go to any folk club and hear folk songs. It is you saying that you cant!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:27 AM

Dick, I was trying to find out if it was anything by Carthy or if it had to be a certain style. You have answered that and went on to say "Nothing Rhymed" would be ok but not "Rave On". That fits in with what I am asking Jim. How do you decide what is in the folk style and what is not?

Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:34 AM

https://youtu.be/gJ39vYSMVzU

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:35 AM

"and find out what they consider to be songs that they are happy with at folk clubs"
How about folk songs - that would be a good start
You don't go into a greengrocer's and be told "we don't do vegetables anymore - wuld you settle for paraffin?"
"McTell or Sheran do. "
No - whAt particular folk styles do you think they use - particularly Sheran
McTell can be said to have some traces of blues in his compositions, but f.a.l. to do with British folk styles
Why the hell should those looking for folk have to negotiate an alternative - what sort of outfit are you running?
As you say - you go to a club to hear folk songs not anything other than which has the folk label hung on it
It's a pity the Trades Descriptions Act doesn't apply to the folk scene - you's all be in Carey Street !
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:37 AM

Btw, Rave On is on a Steeleye Span compilation of here on YouTube.

And, no, I am not keen before anyone asks. It is just a novelty recording like "To know him is to love him" with David Bowie on sax or "New York Girls" with Peter Sellers on uke and strange voices :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:38 AM

i can tell you when things are well written, and hattie carroll imo is not
,well of course this is a subject that deserves a different thread [go and start one] there are certain melodic guidelines as to what most people consider in the uk folk revival consider a folk style , i have certain opinions as do other people so its subjective , but so is most peoples decisions as to what they want to hear in folk clubs. And lets get one thing clear Martin Carthy singning rave on, how many times has this happened and how long ago or is this just gnome goobledeegook

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:47 AM

Sandman- it's down to your preferences and it's as simple as that. If you talk about 'folk' clubs or 'traditional' singing you may argue that when you pay your fiver & are disappointed that it's not what you expected, you're asking the impossible, i.e. pleasing ALL the people ALL the time. I try to do that but it's very difficult!
   These terms were used by some of the earliest & most successful clubs like Newcastle and Swindon, but there was always a great variety, the Davy Lamp & Birtley a few miles apart were very different, but interestingly, attracted many of the same people- and although one-off visitors may be misled/disappointed, local punters will surely KNOW what kind of club the local one is & what the general ambience is?

   Jim Carroll, the folks at the Empress of Russia had their own idea of what the music was about & acted accordingly- it WAS on a Thursday night & along with Jake Thackeray & Tom Robinson, guests included the Old Hat Band from Suffolk and Johnny Doughty- I well recall driving him up from Camber for the night- so really we're back to your idea of what music or performers are good/valid/traditional/folk & we've been there before- I know what I like & so do other people- get used to it!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:50 AM

I'm not running anything, Jim. I'm trying to determine just what it is that constitutes a contemporary folk song for you and why it is different to what constitutes a contemporary folk song for me.

Why do you say MacColl's "Dirty Old Town" is written employing "folk techniques" but Sheran's "Nancy Mulligan" is not?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

of course its my prefernces,that is why i choose to go to certain clubs and not others.
however when i ran a club i had two considerastions my prefernces and regular members prefernces. hence i booked andy caven , my policy when i ran clkubs was too book 60 per cent of what i liked and forty per cent of what regular members might ask for.
that does not mean when i turn up at a folk club that is what i want to hear, but its easy enough a little research on a computer.
when i pay my fiver to hear martin carthy i know what i am getting and it is not [ despite [gnomes statement... buddy holly].
in my opinion the more important problem is the low standard of performing at some singers clubs at guest booking clubs my experience has been better.
When has Carthy sang buddy holly songs?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:03 AM

to paraphrase the great fred trueman , i would ask people who want to sing buudy holly to jump off a bridge but i am a kind man i wouldhave keith fletcher to stand below to catch them

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:11 AM

Dave
Can you link me to anythng folk that vaguely corresponds to THIS
OR THIS
Is that a Devon or a Yorkshire accent he's singing in ?
For Christ's sake
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:13 AM

to clarify fletcher was a cricketer called the gnome, so maybe it would be more apt if i said i would send buddy holly singers to jump off the nearest bridge, but being a kind man i would have dave the gnome to catch them at at the bottom

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:19 AM

I've just checked Sheran's Wiki entry (as you seem to be afan of the site)
Not one single reference top him being linked to folk (though it does say he performed with Elton John - maybe he's a folk singer too!)
This - as the Goons often used to say to close their show - "is all in thee mind - you know"
You appear to be claiming off your own bat that Serin is a folk singer
Has the scene really reached that depth ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:34 AM

What I find confusing is that Jim sometimes insists that "folk" means "traditional"., but he then admits that folk-like songs are acceptable, and that one of his best nights in a club didn't have much to do with "folk". So the question then is where to draw the line between "folk" and other forms of music. That boundary will always be vague and to a large extent a question of personal taste. However if you regard traditional songs as having a particular quality because of the way they have come to us, then the only distinction between composed songs is one of personal taste. You may prefer a McColl song over one by Donovan because one is closer to folk forms, but that doesn't make it a better song.

Personally I could never see what connection there was between say Nick Drake or Donovan, or Simon & Garfunkel for that matter, and folk, except that one interpretation of "folk" has come to mean a singer-songwriter with a guitar. That's possibly of American origin, in the Woody Guthrie tradition, but whatever its origins it has stuck.

I think what is acceptable to put before a folk club audience depends at least as much on content and attitude as provenance. A song with a message or a story, with words up front and with a connection to the audience will often go down well. As for actual pop songs , it depends on context. If a floor singer started to turn up at a club and sang only pop songs every week, then no matter how good they were someone should probably have a quiet word. When an established performer of traditional songs throws one in, it's a bit of fun and not meant to be taken seriously - lighten up. Or sometimes a different interpretation can shed new light on a song - I think the Tabor/Oysterband cover of "Love will Tear Us Apart" is streets ahead of the original because they make it feel more personal, but I know many will disagree.

I don't think any folk club audiences want to hear a night of pop songs, but in my (admittedly now limited) experience of folk clubs I don't think this happens very often. I think Jim may have been unfortunate in his own experience of modern clubs. Where I do agree is that poor performance standards are a greater threat. I can't see why anyone would want to submit themselves to that, except for the opportunity to sing themselves, and I don't think they are a good advert for folk music. However in places where good standards are encouraged I think they are higher than ever, as singers and musicians now have far more opportunities to obtain instruction.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:43 AM

I have always tried to answer your questions honestly, Jim, but you seem to be avoiding mine.

To me, both the songs in those links seem to have been written employing "folk techniques". Please note that I am talking about the songs, not the presentation. Take away the showbiz razzamataz, imagine someone like Christie Moore singing them, then tell me how they are not written in a folk style.

I would be happy to see Mr Sheran, on his own with a guitar, performing those songs anywhere. I am not a big fan of his other stuff but he does make a good job of some traditional songs btw.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:47 AM

...And I have never claimed that Ed Sheran is a folk singer. You are, once again, putting up a straw man. Please stick to the point. In what way are those songs different to other contemporary folk songs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:51 AM

Sheran's Wiki entry

"Sheeran" might have worked better.


Not one single reference top him being linked to folk

So look harder. Is "the Parting Glass" not a folksong?

Like Ewan MacColl, some of his songs are more folky than others, and he seems to be getting more interested in traditional material as time goes on. I doubt he's ever gone as far from tradition as MacColl did with that godawful schlocky piece of Cole Porter pastiche "The First Time Ever". (Come to think of it, "Dirty Old Town" is basically American too - the tune might be straight out of Vernon Dalhart).

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:59 AM

I can recall Martin singing Rave on- probably not in a folk club though- he also did a fine version of Proud Mary & good for him....
Creedence Clearwater were a great band, with a lot of musical credence (sorry about that!)-I've done their stuff as well as Buddy Holly IN MY OWN WAY & certainly not all night- no apologies for that....It's only PART of something bigger, like Johnny Doughty or Margaret Barry, so I have no intention of jumping off a bridge just yet... Keith Fletcher used to drop as lot of catches, didn't he?

yes Dick, it was a nice wee session out on the Marsh- not sure whether to go to Tenterden this year but we might repeat it if I do?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:59 AM

"So look harder. Is "the Parting Glass" not a folksong?"
Of course it is - but not sung like that
Is Rod Stewart a folk singer because he sings Wild Mountain Thyme or George Butterworth a folk composer because he used 'Bonnie Annie to compose 'Banks of Green Willow' ?
Wouldn't have either of them a any folk club I frequented (despite the fact I think Butterworth's composition to be one of the most exquisite orchestral compositions)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:27 AM

I drop catches too, Jim(B), but I am pretty soft to land on :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:35 AM

Combining songs and singers from the last couple of posts, what's wrong with this, Jim?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM

jim b , i think you should go and sid has promised to take me to the marsh

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:47 AM

dave,
it is ok but i have heard better and worse, to be fair guitar is accompanying rather than singer follwing accompaniment.
i am not sure if he was not so well known whether he would be good enough to book , but of course he would bring bums on seats regardlessof how good he is

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 08:16 AM

"what's wrong with this, Jim?"
Maybe I don't understand what you're on about Dave (other than avoiding the fact that Sheren has as much to do with folk as has Maria Callas)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Tunemith
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 09:21 AM

I remember when Fairports, a million years ago, used to end with a rock'a'roll medley and it would get the biggest applause of the night. The audience's reaction used to drive a real folkie friend of mine crazy.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 11:24 AM

"used to drive a real folkie friend of mine crazy."
Can't see why - that's what they did best
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM

ok, eds version is ok, i have heard better and have heard much worse, however he would put bums on seats in folk clubs and if he was singing trad songs like that , that would be a good thing and might introduce a lot of people to the music and folk clubs

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 01:42 PM

jim b, if i book Martin Carthy ,i do not do so to hear him sing rave on, i would be selling tickets and people would expect him to sing the material he is renowned for. i would not book leon rosselson and expect him to sing buddy holly songs neither would people buying tickets for the concert

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 01:47 PM

Just that you should not judge someone on their image, Jim. And you are far more skilful at avoiding the issue than me. You have still not explained the difference between the various contemporary folk songs that I have listed. Other than you like some and not others. Which just boils down to personal taste.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:05 PM

"And you are far more skilful at avoiding the issue than me. "
I have answered avery single point you and anybody else has made
You have yet to tie up your '54 definition with what you think a folk club should put on
Love to learn how Ed Sheeran (thanks Jack) fits into that one
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:50 PM

I have answered avery single point you and anybody else has made

Oh no you haven't!

Go to 23 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM for an unanswered question. Repeated since. Very simply, why do you consider some contemporary songs suitable for folk clubs but not others?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:16 PM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:43 AM

That should be contemporary folk songs of course.

Do we think the discussion on contemporary folk should be on a thread of its own or is it part of the changing UK folk scene?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 03:24 AM

"23 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM"
What have I not answered there Dave ?
I did do by putting Sheeran's song up - - if you can't tell the difference between his song and those others you listed then there is no point in our continuing - I'm not sure there has been for a long time
The most unique and important aspect of traditional song is that it is word based - the songs carry the stories, ideas, emotions, appropriations, experiences..... of 'the folk' - the people who made and carried them they are narratives with tunes
The song makers you listed, "MacColl, Garbutt and Tawney", make songs make songs using a similar form - you might have added Eric Bogle, Loon Rossleson, Jack Warshaw, Enoch Kent, Miles Wooton, Pete Smith, John Pole.... and the many, many others who used the same composition techniques
To my untrained ear, those you listed are indistinguishable from pop songs, if I wanted to listen to them, I would be listening to music that happened to have words
What words tere are are either drowned out by what should be the accompaniment but, rather, dominates the performance
Joust listened to Thompson.... the narrative - if there is one, in unfollowable, the words are turned to gibberish by having not making grammatical sense... broken up to make room for long gutar
breaks... if you removed the guitar the piece would he less than half the length
One of the great problems of much accompaniment of traditional songs is that, as skilful as it may be played, it swamps the narrative - you could go for a piss between lines
Our folk songs are statements in verse - your music is as far away as you can get from that
I've said this over and over again - your examples bear no resmblence to our folk song repertoire - if that is what you are selling as folk you're conning the punters and, while you're at it, you are destroying a people's art form
Sory Dave - we are not sppeaking the same language - you are arguing for the hostile takeover that hast taken place
I have no intention of climbing fences at my age - go read Lloyd's classic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:02 AM

Ok, Jim. Your phrase "To my untrained ear, those you listed are indistinguishable from pop songs" sums it up. You cannot explain to me why some contemporary folk is ok while some is not so It seems that it is all down to personal taste as I have said all along! On that note, I shall take this discussion elsewhere to see if someone else can explain it. Look for a thread called "Different types of contemporary folk". Feel free to join in if you like but unless you have anything extra to add I think you may find it boring:-(

What I would like to add is my thanks for a well mannered and interesting discussion. Isn't it nice to be able to disagree strongly without the rancour and bitterness we see so often from some below the line.

Cheers

Dave.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:33 AM

Yes we seem to have meandered off the topic UK60s Folk Club boom

I would suggest that times do change and that word meanings have and do change

Not everyone wants to nor needs to change their thinking, others will argue that is not necessarily good think to ignore passage of time and how things have changed

Folk song ~ to many like me includes traditional song, however it is defined ~ it does not exclude Contemporary folk song ~ yes agree sometimes difficult to separate contemporary folk song from popular music and certainly whilst pop artist use traditional song to arrange and record and entertain audiences it is bound to get worse in the future

Time is a respecter of no man ~ we are all getting older and audiences are younger and looking to modern ways ~ hopefully still respecting the sources of their music

I do applaud the arrangements by musically gifted artists of traditional song using the folk instruments such as fiddles, guitars concertinas et al as well as the unaccompanied singers which is still very popular in dedicated sessions

Ray (over 70 btw)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:48 AM

Lots of sense in there, Ray. I think 99.9% of the population would agree with you. I certainly do.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM

This post is in anticipation of the next one if it succeeds>

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:50 AM

400. OOOOh I cheated!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:54 AM

"I would suggest that times do change and that word meanings have and do change"
If we are to continue to communicate any changes need a consensus
When you are talkig of a specific historically based music you cannot arbitrarily change its definition to suit personal taste otherwise you lose it
99% of the population either understand or care what folk music is so it is 'poulist' to rely on their non-surveyed views - that's what gave us Brexit and the "many" referred to are in fact very few and dwindling rapidly so even erzatz folk is losing out bu not having an identity
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 05:13 AM

Best post on this thread by far is the following from Jim Carroll:

"The most unique and important aspect of traditional song is that it is word based - the songs carry the stories, ideas, emotions, appropriations, experiences..... of 'the folk' - the people who made and carried them they are narratives with tunes
The song makers you listed, "MacColl, Garbutt and Tawney", make songs make songs using a similar form - you might have added Eric Bogle, Loon Rossleson, Jack Warshaw, Enoch Kent, Miles Wooton, Pete Smith, John Pole.... and the many, many others who used the same composition techniques
To my untrained ear, those you listed are indistinguishable from pop songs, if I wanted to listen to them, I would be listening to music that happened to have words
What words tere are are either drowned out by what should be the accompaniment but, rather, dominates the performance
Joust listened to Thompson.... the narrative - if there is one, in unfollowable, the words are turned to gibberish by having not making grammatical sense... broken up to make room for long gutar
breaks... if you removed the guitar the piece would he less than half the length
One of the great problems of much accompaniment of traditional songs is that, as skilful as it may be played, it swamps the narrative - you could go for a piss between lines
Our folk songs are statements in verse - your music is as far away as you can get from that
I've said this over and over again - your examples bear no resmblence to our folk song repertoire - if that is what you are selling as folk you're conning the punters and, while you're at it, you are destroying a people's art form
Sory Dave - we are not sppeaking the same language - you are arguing for the hostile takeover that hast taken place"

Dave the Gnome was correct the first time when he typed - "Go to 23 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM for an unanswered question. Repeated since. Very simply, why do you consider some contemporary songs suitable for folk clubs but not others?"

Nobody writes contemporary FOLK songs they write contemporary songs that they hope will be commercially successful - certainly applies to Sheeran, McTell and Dylan. I think Brian McNeil is the only person I know who would not fit into that mold. Whether they become FOLK songs is not down to the writer of the song it is down to those who hear it and the process it then goes through. And in this Jim is again perfectly correct:

"The most unique and important aspect of traditional[Folk] song is that it is word based - the songs carry the stories, ideas, emotions, appropriations, experiences..... of 'the folk' - the people who made and carried them they are narratives with tunes

Traditional folk instruments in relation to UK folk music - Guitars? Don't think so they only really became massively popular in the UK AFTER the Second World War with the arrival of skiffle.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 06:01 AM

quote:- "Loon Rossleson"

Rather unkind, wouldn't you say?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 06:04 AM

"Nobody writes contemporary FOLK songs they write contemporary songs that they hope will be commercially successful -"
Thank you guest - those words need to be carved into stone
When we have researchers who produce unresearched percentages of non-involved people to make their case, folk music really is in trouble
The appalling thing is that people in general almost certainly know less as to what constitutes folk song than they did a century ago
Sharps generation at least had the anodyne adaptations that were edited to be served up to children - Miss Pringle bashing out 'Cherry Ripe' on the school piano was closer to folk song than what goes on in many folk clubs today
The Folk Boom, for all its shortcomings, was relying on the researches carried by the Lomaxs in the States and the BBC team working in the first half of the Fifties
Now even the researches have abandoned that pioneering work and have decided that the pioneers were "starry-eyed romantics", Child was an incompetent researcher who couldn't distinguish between his various subjects and singers like Walter Pardon, Mary Delaney, Tom Lenihan.... and all the other source singers who expressed views on their songs down the decades, didn't have a clue what they were talking about - Ivory-towerism gone ballistic.
If you are seriously researchinga a subjct, you dont stand at the bus stop waiting for the next fad to come along like a cultural commuter - you should know the subjct you are researching
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 06:15 AM

Traditional music is not just word and story based through. To say so ignores a massive culture of music that has no words whatsoever! And I think anyone would be hard pushed to say something like "Music for a found harmonium" is not traditional unless they knew the background of it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 06:19 AM

Sorry, intended putting a link to the Patrick Street version.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 06:39 AM

Traditional music is not just word and story based ....."

Talking about songs here, so what part of the following did you fail to grasp?

"The most unique and important aspect of TRADITIONAL SONG is that it is word based"

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 06:54 AM

I disagree people write songs for anumber of reasons not just to be commercially succesful, examples MacColl rosselson,
these words need to be carved in stone with the words Carroll Codswallop, are you going to tell me thatMacColl wrote first time ever [ to be commercially successful, didhe writedirty old town thirty foot trailer my old man to be commercially successful, did leon rosselson write world turned upside down anf aberfan to be commercially succesful. Jim you have inadvertenly insulted your old friend, you are losing the plot

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 07:04 AM

, to paraphrase the great fred trueman quote which sums up this thread.
Unless something happens that we can't predict, I don't think a lot will happen”

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM

"Traditional music is not just word and story based through"
Yes it is Dave - whatever bands like Patrick Street do it it - it is a set of peoetic words set to a tune - not a tune, as any band may do to ti
This really is inane
I think you're better off on the other thread talking to a New Age Researcher - you'll get no more form me I'm afraid
You have established quite clearly where you stand, sadly
"Carroll Codswallop,"
If you have only abuse to offer the same goes for you Dick
Who suggested any of those for money - certainly not me ?
Stop making things up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 08:21 AM

Incidentally Dave
What has a piece of CLASSICAL MUSIC got to do with this discussion
Is that what we can expect from your club ?
If so - I much prefer the real thing rather than Patrick Street's agonisingly bad rendition (hope I don't meet Jackie Daly in the local bar when I go out for a pint tonight
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 10:08 AM

>>>>>>Nobody writes contemporary FOLK songs they write contemporary songs that they hope will be commercially successful -"<<<<<<<

That is absolute piffle! I know hundreds of contemporary folksong writers who write for a great variety of reasons, love of the music, trying to get a message across, political beliefs, to enhance local and national heritage etc. etc. If their songs are taken up by others or put out on a CD the commercial aspect is simply an add-on. Some of these are brilliant writers and their songs will stand the test of time.
For most of them the greatest accolade is having their songs sung by others.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 10:45 AM

"I know hundreds of contemporary folksong writers who write for a great variety of reasons,"
Only if you abandon any semblance of the term "folk" Steve, as you obviously have
Once again, you forgot to add "in my opinion"
This gets crazier and crazier
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 10:54 AM

jim, you agreed that "they write contemporary songs that they hope will be commercially successful -" that is absolute rubbish , that comment made by guest anon is   intellectual masturbation

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 11:07 AM

I was responding to his statement that nobody writes folk songs - I'n not interested why they write anything
Unless you want to kick down over a century' scholarship, some done while the tradition was still alive (as some desk-jockeys apparently do) - nobody can write a folk song - it has to go through a process to become one
The term 'folk;' is totally meaningless if that's not accepted
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM

There was also plentiful scholarship in Nazi Germany. Many find flaws in some of its findings. Some research for perpetual motion.
The quest does not bring the certainty of accurate conclusions,no matter what its nature.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM

Sorry, Jim. Where have I abused you? If you provide the date, time and what you felt to be abusive, I will unreservedly apologise.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 01:20 PM

And guest 24 Feb 19 - 06:39 AM, which bit of "traditional music is not etc" did you fail to understand?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 01:54 PM

"Where have I abused you?"
You- haven't - unless it was you who wrote "Carroll Codswallop" - which was what I was responding to
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:02 PM

BTW, Jim.

Classical music

serious music following long-established principles rather than a folk, jazz, or popular tradition.
(more specifically) music written in the European tradition during a period lasting approximately from 1750 to 1830, when forms such as the symphony, concerto, and sonata were standardized.

Music for a found harmonium was written in 1984 by Simon Jeffes. My point was that it you did not know that it would sit happily in any traditional music (not song) session and is indeed included in the BBC's virtual session.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:12 PM

...And thanks for the clarification. I obviously mis-read something so apologise for that anyway :-)

It gives me chance to come back with a bit of light relief that I had not spotted on the BBC session comments page before.

Re: Origins of Music for a found harmonium?
It sounded good when Mr P. Street once did it but it sounds awful in sessions. That key-change is a bit on the esoteric side, and I can’t play the bloody thing on a diatonic harmonica.

# Posted by Steve Shaw 8 years ago.

A Steve Shaw who plays harmonica in sessions. Who do we know like that? :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:24 PM

"Music for a found harmonium was written in 1984 by Simon Jeffes. My point was that it you did not know that it would sit happily in any traditional music (not song) session and is indeed included in the BBC's virtual session".
It feckin would not.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:25 PM

Sez you! :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:37 PM

I'd be very happy to hear it played well in a session but I don't think there would be many joining in.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:48 PM

"Music for a found harmonium was written in 1984 by Simon Jeffes"
My mistake - but if you compare both - he seems to leaned heavily on Bach for his composition - some would call it plagiarism if Bach hadn't been dead for so long
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:00 PM

Bach from the dead?

:D

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:14 PM

Tell you what though, Jim (checking in during commercial breaks in Endeavour). It must be a clever bit of music to be many things to many people :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:42 PM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:47 PM

When i use the phrase Carroll Codswallop, i am not abusing you ,iam refrrin to a silly statement that you made, if i called you a nincom poop , that is personal abuse, but i have not called you a nincompoop, codswallop and its possible origin
The story goes that a man by the name of Hiram Codd patented a bottle for fizzy drinks with a marble in the neck, which kept the bottle shut by pressure of the gas until it was pressed inwards. Wallop was a slang term for beer, and Codd's wallop came to be used by beer drinkers as a derogatory term for weak or gassy beer, or for soft drinks

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 05:00 PM

Eeeee. He's a clever bloke that young Endeavour Morse. Good taste too. Shaun Evans who play him is a Scouser though so my Manc heritage stops me from praising him too highly :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 04:27 AM

There is no such thing as Contemporary Folk Music

So there is ONLY Traditional folk song

Righto

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:05 AM

Ok... ???

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:41 AM

"When i use the phrase Carroll Codswallop, i am not abusing "
Then you need to invest in a dictionary Dick
Forget it
"It must be a clever bit of music to be many things to many people :-)"
As is The Flight of the Bumblebee - doesn't make it a candidate for a folk night
"So there is ONLY Traditional folk song"
Folk refers to the people who made it, made it their own within communities until the original maker is forgotten or has become insignificant and freely passed it on without restrictions for others to do the same
If that still happens, there is contemporary folk music
If it doesn't, there is no contemporary folk music as we have become passive recipients of our culture
If we're lucky, there will be plenty of songs made using the unique structure of folk song, but a glance above suggests that that's not going to happen very soon
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:46 AM

I just had an idea! Maybe after brexit when England gets back to her former glory we will see a return to the heady days of the 1960's. After all, folk clubs were far better out of Europe :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 06:10 AM

After all, folk clubs were far better out of Europe :-)

That might isolate you from Celtic cousins! Otherwise you might forget your celtic p's and q's

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 06:11 AM

Whoops keyed too soon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6DzGKNYaqM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 06:47 AM

Just poted this to a friend off-line
I thought I'd share it

I think that, while the folk scene continues to be a dumping ground for songs that people can't be arsed to find another name for, and while we are plagued with arrogant megalomaniac academics who seem hell bent on burning over a century's worth of research, a vital working people's art form has little chance of continuing to be enjoyed and appreciated - may it RIP
It really was great while it lasted
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:02 AM

If we were to take the 1954 defintion seriously Tradtional folk song has become a museum piece,and only now exists in the form of football chants

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:15 AM

Sandman that has been my argument all along. Ancient methods of creation, transmission and alteration have been rendered obsolescent by the modern world. A rigid definition encapsulating only traditional folk has the implicit acceptance the genre is pickled in aspic or fossilised in amber. you aint going to create a sea shanty when the modern world relies on pushing a button or keystrokes, the same with folk music.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM

"If we were to take the 1954 defintion seriously"
Iwonder why it is only those who oppose the '54 definition are the only ones ever to raise it !!
Folk song is far simpler define than that
Tradition - a process that absorbs, changes and distributes a song until it becomes ownerless
Folk - the people who put it through that process
Take that as your starting point and you have little need to go further
The making of new songs using 'folk' forms and presenting them together not only them as museum pieces, but it allows both to survive and continue by building a foundation
Everything lse is opportunistic and destructive bullshit - by using pop forms to create so-called 'modern folk songs' will win no new enthusiasts (it hasn't so far) and is quite likely to take on the 'self-destruct to make room for the next one' ethos of the genre
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:13 AM

It strikes me that a scene that I have just described above is far more 'up-to-date' with the constant creation of new songs than the poor performances of decades old pop songs that are only significant to those who weer around when they were being well sung
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 12:24 PM

Folk ~ are people ~ people who make and craft songs & poems~ play music to entertain and inform the result is Folk songs ~ songs of the people by the people for the people!!

Traditional folk songs ~

Tradition - a process that absorbs, changes and distributes a song until it becomes ownerless
Folk - the people who put it through that process ~ traditional folk songs

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 12:32 PM

"Folk ~ are people ~ people who make and craft songs & poems"
Meaningless Ray
The term was applied to the largely rural working people in order to identify, first their unique superstitions and customs and later their stories, songs and music - Child used the term 'popular "of the people
Your re-invention of the term makes Bach a folk Composer, Maria Callas a folk singer, Jeffrey Archer a writer of folk stories and Rudolph Nureyev a folk dancer - and 'The Birdie Song a folk song
Please don't be silly
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM

Folk ~ are people ~ people who make and craft songs & poems~ play music to entertain and inform the result is Folk songs ~ songs of the people by the people for the people!!

Trite meaningless twaddle Ray

The only factual bit there is - Folk ~ are people ~ Full stop. Among those folk there will be a few who make and craft songs and poems. The reasons and motivations for them doing this will vary enormously.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:30 PM

"Folk ~ are people"
In which case, we have no way of distinguishing the folk arts from any other art form
Funny - vever had any trouble up to know
The term was created to do just that and it seems an act of cultural vandalism to misuse it - we really were here first - why not get your own term (difficult, I suppose, as the incomers seem totally unable to identify what they are now selling as folk)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM

How about "open mic night" for those that do not do folk music?

Oh, hang on, someone has! :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:29 PM

It seems that, as what is being now claimed as 'folk music' has in particular identity, open mike is as good as any
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 03:08 PM

Remind us then, who exactly are 'the folk' and when was the term first applied to their artefacts, song in particular?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:18 AM

Your re-invention of the term makes Bach a folk Composer, Maria Callas a folk singer, Jeffrey Archer a writer of folk stories and Rudolph Nureyev a folk dancer - and 'The Birdie Song a folk song

Maria Callas is/was am opera singer ~ Rudolph Nureyev was a ballet dancer Bach was a composer of orchestral music ~ they fall into a different class
~ Jeffrey Archer is a novelist!

Folk music is music of the people, basic compositions as is folk song, carrying on the tradition without actually being traditional!

Folk song is a living entity whether it is deemed traditional or Contemporary folk song

We are all people ~ I hope!

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:33 AM

we are all people,but some of us are also pillocks

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:29 AM

"Folk song is a living entity whether it is deemed traditional or Contemporary folk song"
No it isn't
It died when 'the people' ceased to be active participants in their culture and became passive recipients of what somebody manufactured and owned
Folk song has been carefully documented and reproduced for over a century - it's that 'folk song' that we took up a lifetime ago and it's that which continues to hold rights to the title
If this were a trial I would be ably to provide many thousands of example of examples of what real folk song is - can you produce a single validated argument other than the opinions of a disappearing group of people who want what they do to be fol song?
Where is the evidence for your claim ?
Simple question (again)
The most commonly song sung today is researched to be Abba's 'Waterloo' and 'The Birdie Song'
Are they folk songs - if not, why not?
Jim Carroll
By the way - if Bach, Callas and Archer are not 'The Folk' who exactly do you mean by The Folk?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:19 AM

Apologies to Jim Carroll for what appears to be a misunderstanding. When I wrote that Folk ~ are people ~ Full Stop I was using the word "folk" in it's broadest and archaic meaning given in the dictionary as people in general. I hope that clears that up.

Today "People in general" do not write poems, do not write songs, do not play musical instruments, do not dedicate years of their lives to some clearly defined art form because the vast majority of "People in general" are too busy just getting on with life. Now back in the time long before jazz and before it's offshoot - skiffle, "people in general" worked the land and sailed the seas and the work they did was manual and labour intensive. Part of them "just getting on with life" involved collective effort and to give that work rhythm and co-ordination they sang or chanted to improve the efficiency of what they were doing and to relieve the boredom of it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 06:00 AM

Guest
No apology needed
Here we are discussing a specific body of songs which were attributed to a specific section of the population - that description has remained valid right up to the present day and will continue to be so until someone replaces it with another to describe a unique culture, which also covers music, dance, tales, customs and lore.... the disciplines are inseparable
I agree the people no longer create, but I don't accept that it is because they are too busy -
People still need diversion - they have gone elsewhere for it - now they have become customers rather than participant swhich, to a degree, minimises their role in society
Theit voice has been removed from the equation so they no longer have a platform for self expression
I've told this several times before, but it's worth repeating
Some time ago I discovered a whole body of songs among those we recorded here in Clare which could only have been made locally and during the lifetimes of the singer
They covered every subject under the sun concerning life in the early part of the 20th century - shipwrecks, land disputes, political warfare, drownings, arranged marriages..... right through to a local railway and fashion - all anonymous and all locally made
An old singer (still with us and now aged 98) summed them up perfectly when he said, "In those days, if a man farted in church someone made a song about it".
We've since found that practice was common throughout Ireland
You want to hear examples of these songs, look up 'The Quilty Burning', or 'The Bobbed Hair', or 'The Rineen Ambush' or 'The West Clare Railway' , or 'The Leon'..... and several more
CARROLL/MACKENZIE COLLECTION
People need to express themselves rather than pay someone to do it for them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 08:44 AM

Jim, what you appear unwilling to accept is that there is a large body of fairly recently composed songs which don't always follow traditional forms but which are not "pop". They were widely accepted as falling within the broader understanding of "folk" and have been a normal part of the folk club repertoire for several decades, without being seen as a threat to traditional music. If I understand you correctly, you appear to regard most of these songs as falling into the category of "pop" rather than folk.

Your pessimistic view of the future of folk music seems to be at least in part affected by a somewhat narrow view of what you consider to be "near-folk",ie not traditional but close enough to be acceptable. Even at the height of the folk club boom, this would have excluded the vast majority of clubs, most of which had a broader policy which would allow most contemporary folk whilst still not (as a rule) including pop.

This thread and others like it can never reach a conclusion because we are permanently at cross-purposes. Most of us have a wider tolerance of what can be expected in a folk club (even though it may not be to our own taste). You are of course entitled to your own views but most other contributors see a wider folk scene and one which is in far better health than you would have us believe, albeit one which is changing to meet new times and a new generation of enthusiasts.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 09:13 AM

"recently composed songs which don't always follow traditional forms but which are not "pop"
Happy to accept that fully Howard but how can they be "widely accepted" by a dwindling 'folk scene' that only has a claimed 180 clubs - who are the 'widely'
That some folkies do accept them as such doesn't mean a damned thing in the grand order of things   
Acceptability to whom ?
The future of folk music lies in it being recognised as such in all its aspects - once that has been established you can begin to rebuild what was once a very healthy movement based on the real thing
I'm at a bit of a loss here - can you specify what songs you mean and why they resemble folk
I have no problem with songs made using folk structures and having the same objective - storytelling, communication of experiences and emotions using narratively structured words -
For research purposes, they will never be folk songs until they go through a process, but that's beside the point
In the main, newly composed songs using such techniques have always been accepted
People began turning away in their thousands when they attended clubs which were dominated by songs that bore no resemblance to those they thought they would hear - the homogeneity had disappeared their choice of what they wished to listen to had been removed, the magazines, shops and labels disappeared
That continues to be the case
You can hardly claim that the shift has been a success and our chance of passing on what gave some of us a lifetime to pleasure and stimulation to the next generation was severely damaged
Try applying this attitude to any other musical form - well it "sounds a bit like" jazz, classical music, blues, pop..... and see how ridiculous it sounds
What's so different about folk song ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 11:35 AM

I suggest that the thread be returned to the title above

I do follow what Jim is ascertaining, however people will continue to make music and arrange both old and new songs which may or may not continue to stand the test of time

My view is that the English language will continue to recognise the terms Traditional folk songs and Contemporary Folk songs and some of us will understand what is meant even if the terms are not correct to others

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM

Hard to discuss the 50s boom without including what made it eexplode in the fist place
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:24 PM

Remind us then, who exactly are 'the folk' and when was the term first applied to their artefacts, song in particular? (Repeat of post 25th Feb, 3.08 p.m.)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:49 PM

I had another thought. Digging up a bush in the garden today must have jolted my brain!

Folk clubs were not a natural venue for traditional folk song. Those songs were sung in the fields and barns and on the ships. They were sung in pubs and peoples houses and at fairs. Before the 1950s the concept of a folk club did not exist. When they formed they gave the people the chance to experience the music without the hard work that it should be associated with. As an entity they are less than 70 years old. Hardly a traditional!

Anything wrong with that train of thought?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:30 PM

No, Dave. That's why we call it a revival. We were reviving the music using a completely new format. The whole thing was a false construct. It was not continuing anything that had gone before other than the music itself and that was taken out of context. Even the traditional singers who were occasionally brought in were performing in an alien environment to an almost entirely new audience. But those realists among us were happy with this new music and it helped knowing it was collectively part of our heritage; and we embraced the whole scene, song, music, dance, drama. Those of us who stuck with it for the last 50 years or so were, and still are, inspired by it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:08 PM

Thanks Steve.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:23 PM

>>>>Hardly a traditional!<<<<

When scholars talk about a tradition' and use the word 'traditional' not a single one has put actual time parameters on this, and that is perhaps how it should be. Just as we look at these music genres using Venn diagrams we have no collective concept of a timeline in which something moves from not being traditional to being traditional. To give an example, we talk about passing on from one generation to another which in the terms of families is about a 25-year period on average, but in terms of children in the playground a generation is just one year group passing on to lower age groups and I suppose the same applies to children in the street but not as rigidly applied.

Whilst the usual processes of oral tradition have been drastically affected by technology over the centuries, there are new similar processes at work with technology playing an increasingly great part. You could say an excellent example is Mudcat itself.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 07:18 PM

Jim, you ask for an example of the sort of music I am talking about.

As it happens, I read your reply while I was waiting for a tram, and in the background a busker was singing "Don't think twice, it's alright". Had I asked other people at the tram stop, I believe most of them would have described that as a folk song. I also think they would have disagreed that it was a pop song.

That song, and others like it, was widely sung in folk clubs from the 1960s onwards, alongside traditional songs. They were part of "folk" in the broader sense which all but a few clubs embraced. If you are suggesting that songs like this caused people to turn away from folk clubs in their thousands, all I can say is that it took them several decades to do so. The clubs continued to thrive until the late 80s/early 90s. The reason for their decline has been discussed elsewhere. One reason may have been that the folk club generation found that work and family commitments got in the way. Punk may have offered the younger generation the opportunities for self-expression which the folk clubs had previously.

I haven't disputed that the folk clubs are much reduced, although I query the figure of 180 clubs which seems to have come from a Wikipedia article with no evidence to support it. I have already shown that there appear to be at least 50 clubs in the north west alone (and that's only those who belong to the Federation). I find it hard to believe that this region accounts for around 1/3 of all the clubs in the country. Furthermore there are other venues besides folk clubs to hear folk music, including traditional songs. As Steve said, the clubs were an artificial construct - they worked for a time but other artificial constructs are now joining them and perhaps taking their place, such as house concerts. I see large numbers of young people taking up folk music.

You make much of folk clubs being active rather than passive, but the majority of people who went to folk clubs never got up to perform but sat there and listened.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 02:28 AM

To be clear, I'm not claiming that the folk scene is in as healthy a state as it was in the 60s. Fashions change. For a brief time in the 60s folk music was cool (although this led -mainly by contemporary folk rather than traditional) and the clubs benefited from that. It came to be regarded as a bit odd, listened to be people with beards and sweaters, and probably wearing socks with sandals.

What I am saying is that it's not as bad as you claim, and measuring it by the number of folk clubs (whatever that might be) is to ignore the many other opportunities to hear folk music which now exist.

Can you please give some examples of the "pop" songs which you think are such a threat to traditional song?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:04 AM

" Had I asked other people at the tram stop, "
You didn't so you don't know Howard
If you had and they'd replied it was, would they have been able to define what a folk song was - how can a song made and copyrighted by Dylan belong to the folk ?
If 'folk doesn't mean 'made and belonging to the folk', what does it mean?
Would you pursue any other subject by aking people from busts-stops - from stamp collecting to quantum physics - of course you wouldn't !!
Why should folk song be different that it should be based on mass ignorance ?
As I said earlier, people in general knew far more what folk song was a century ago than they do now.
To study or to run a club you choose to refer to as 'folk' implies a specific type of song, yet you refuse top describe what you are selling - sharp practice in my book
The clubs were'nt 'part of the folk' - this is a new claim - we were borrowing from the folk repertoire
Composer George Butterworth wrote the most exquisite piece of of English orchestral Music, 'Banks of Green Willow', based on the Child Ballad, 'Bonnie Annie', Vaughan Williams did similar with English folk song, 'Lovely Joan' - were they 'part of the folk, or were they borrowing from the genre ?
Your excuses for the scene dying are just that - excuses - we were bon busier aster the clubs died than we were before, yet for decades we filled the clubs
There was at least one long debate just prior the clubs dying and "too busy" never appeared on the horizon - poorly run folk clubs, indifferent performances and not hearing folk songs weer pretty well front runners
I didn't put up the article by the way, somebody who believes the club scene to be in the best of health did as evidence that all was well
I tend to rely on common sense and my own findings rather than arbitrarily pasted opinions
"You make much of folk clubs being active rather than passive,"
Never have - must have been someone else
I said ours (the people's) culture was active rather than passive - they made, sang and swapped their songs - now they receive them passively
What happened at the clubs doesn't come into the equation

"Remind us then, who exactly are 'the folk' "
The term was used to identify the artifacts being gathered from 'THe Common People' as the peasantry/rural working classes were referred to at the time to distinguish them from the educated elite and the formal artists -
Irish writers of the time actually referred to them as 'the Peasantry' as Ireland still had remnents of a Peasant economy
English writer, Robert Bell (1800-1867) actually entitled his collection 'Ancient Poems, Ballads, and Songs of the Peasantry of England'
You shouldn't have to ask this Steve - it's basic stuff
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:22 AM

Some pool player once remarked [in my hearing]when Martin Carthy came on the jukebox singing bonny lass of anglesea , oh its that jazz singer.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:50 AM

I was asking you specifically, Jim, for your opinion, and you haven't answered the second part of the question.

You particularly single out Bell. What proportion of the songs in this book are broadside ballads and what proportion would you say are taken from oral tradition?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:05 AM

"Technology"
The spread of literacy led to the fixing of song texts - part of our work with source singers was asking them about songs they learned from print
The few that did said they hardly changed the songs - they were set texts - Tom Lenihan said he didn't trust 'the ballads' because "they never got them right' (you need to remember that people like Tom came from a living, very creative tradition) songs songs they already knew, much preferring to get them fro other singers (particularly the non- literate Travellers)
Literacy had the eventual effect of destroying the oral traditions because it did away with the need for them
Why should electronic communication - an extension of literacy, reverse the process, be considered another tradition ?
This seems like another researchers 'fad' to me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:13 AM

Missed a bit
"What proportion of the songs in this book are broadside ballads and what proportion would you say are taken from oral tradition?"
I have no idea which of Bells songs originated from the oral tradition, any more than you have
That Bell got them from print is totally immaterial to where they originated, as you should know
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:52 AM

Literacy had the eventual effect of destroying the oral traditions because it did away with the need for them

I think the facts do not wholly support that assertion, unless talking specifically about travellers.
" Irish literacy rates before the Great Famine were high relative to GDP per head. In 1841 nearly half of those aged 5 years and over could at least read, while 53 per cent of those aged over 15 years declared some literacy. Literacy in, say, Italy or the Iberian peninsula was less than half the Irish rate at this time, and in the late 1820s more than half of [male] recruits in half of France’s eighty-six départements were illiterate"
https://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/wp10_22.pdf


iscovery.ucl.ac.uk/10019999/2/__d6_Shared%24_SUPP_Library_User Services_Circulation_Inter-Library Loans_IOE ETHOS_EThOS - Redact

Perhaps the illiterate cohort were the ones that specialised or kept the folk tradition going. It could be an interesting reasearch project. But the origin of the folk revival was (US) public folklorists, cultural preservationists, scholars, musicians, political activists, musical entrepreneurs, and folk musicians together in the effort to protect and preserve, as well as promote and popularize, the genre of folk music.

https://etd.library.vanderbilt.edu/available/etd-03232011-085825/unrestricted/FINALDISSERTATION.pdf

It must also be kept in mind that modern illiteracy rates appear to be rising and the statistics are frighteningly high (I am assuming the UK matches closely the figures from Ireland

https://www.nala.ie/literacy/literacy-in-ireland

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:32 PM

Jim, as you very well know "folk" has acquired two entirely distinct meanings. One is the original meaning, which you cling to. The other is broader, and includes traditional song but also extends to modern songs, It can be briefly, if not entirely accurately, summarised as a "singer with a guitar". It is this broader meaning which is what the general public understands by "folk music", which is why I am confident that most people would have said my busker was performing a folk song. In much the same way I would expect them to be able to recognise a jazz band or a classical string quartet, and distinguish between a fiddler playing folk tunes and a violinist around the corner playning Bach. People may not know much about musical genres, but they have a broad idea what they sound like.

You may feel this is an incorrect meaning (I assume it comes from America, where it may have more of a connection with authentic traditional folk) but that is how it is widely understood. The folk scene as a whole also embraced that meaning, from at least the 1960s. There may be a case to be made that the 60s boom was largely given its impetus by this sort of folk, at a time when performers like Dylan, Donovan, Peter Paul & Mary, Simon & Garfunkel etc were part of mainstream popular music. Individual clubs positioned themselves at different points along the spectrum between wholly trad and wholly contemporary, but in most you could expect to hear a mixture of both.

To pretend that this meaning of "folk" does not exist or should be ignored is to bury your head in the sand. This is the music, centred on traditional songs but including much more, which the folk clubs existed to promote. This is what the public at large, "the folk", understand "folk music" to be.

This is why I said earlier that we are at cross purposes, because when we we talk about "folk" we mean different things.

I don't want to get sidetracked into a discussion about why the clubs declined, that has been discussed at length elsewhere. You have claimed that the current problem is that folk clubs have become places where you can expect to hear pop songs rather than traditional songs. Can you please give some examples of some of these pop songs which you feel present such a threat?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:41 PM

I can , but not sure they are a threat more what i do not want to listen to, peggy sue.. one peformer used to specialise in them he performed them well ,but it is not what i go to folk clubs tohear,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:45 PM

"Jim, as you very well know "folk" has acquired two entirely distinct meanings."
I know nothing of the sort Howard
It has a researched definition and it has become meaningless - a convenient label for a small and rapidly diminishing group of people who have decided to make use ofr it
There is massive researched documentation which confirms the first there is not even agreement on what the latter group mean - no documentation, no research.... just a deliberate misuse of the term
Singer with a guitar could mean any pop singer, equally it could be a Spanish traditional singer
His gets more and more ridiculous
The vast number of people in Britain have no idea what folk music means, nor do tey care
Tpo base anything on that level of ignorance or disinterest is a desperate grasping of straws to justify the unjustifiable
I find it sad that anybody should wish to go to such lengths to, in essence, replace an extremely important art form with.... well - nothing really
Sorry - you really are going to have to do better than that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:45 PM

when i go to a jazz club i expect to hear improvisation ,i cetainly do not want to hear cliff richard performing

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 02:00 PM

perhaps its part of the folk process that we have extemporised a new variant of the meaning of the word.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 02:38 PM

Howard, how your head must ache!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:35 PM

I'll be honest. I used to be actively involved in running both a folk club and a festival for nearly 30 years I have not been active for around 10 years and not involved at all for 6. I still go to folk clubs and occasionally sing (reasonably) and play a couple of instruments but to no great extent. When I perform I try to do folk songs. When I am listening I really don't care about the provenance of the song as long as it meets my own measure of a folk song, I like it and it is well performed.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM

...Maybe I am too easy to please but it does make for some very enjoyable evenings :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:00 PM

Enjoynent is subjective, i enjoy most things i hear in guest booking clubs , i do not enjoy lets all go on a summer holiday, some enjoy fred jordan singing tiptoe through the turnips. or carthy singing rave on, thers no accountimg for taste

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 02:51 AM

It goes far beyond 'enjoyment' - that my be why we became involved in it in the first place, but once you do, it takes on far mor needs and functions
It would be interesting to discuss why people sing what they do, but while what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity, that's out of the question
I can tell you what brought me to folk songs and why I have continued to sing and be interested in them for nearly three quarters of my life - I wonder if anybody else can ?

"Howard, how your head must ache!"
Very profound Stave - and very safe
Always easier to stand on the sidelines and let someone else do the hard work
JIm

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 03:38 AM

I nearly resisted from making further comment

It is a fact that no one can force anyone to think any differently than they are prepared to ~ that btw includes everyone on this thread ~ Jim Carroll is far too argumentative

If this were a court of law I know where my understanding would be

NO further comments on this off topic sub thread from me

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM

but while what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity

That seems a bit of a sweeping statement, Jim. How many people on here have you heard singing and how do you know what songs they sing? The ones I have linked of me singing/playing, for instance, are all folk songs as far as I know. Are you telling me otherwise? In fact, there is one in particular that I learned off my Dad, who learned it off a Gypsy guitarist in pre-war Poland and no-one knows anything about it apart from that!

As far as I am concerned, hedonistic as it sounds, it is only for enjoyment now. I am of an age that if I don't enjoy it, I don't do it. Other than medical procedures and funerals that is.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 04:15 AM

"That seems a bit of a sweeping statement, Jim. "
When you run an outfit where anything counts as folk song, it is a fact Dave
I have heard what you putt up ass folk song and am not particualarly impresses but I am convinced that it bears no relation to folk song
What you linked to did - but that's not what is being argued for here
I actually enjoy what I do and am involved in - hedonistic, I suppose, but none of us are in position to define anything based on what we like - the reverse is the case - we involve ourselves in things that are already defined and we have no right to re-define them because they don't suit us

"far too argumentative"
Isn't that what we're here for - to share ideas and argue for them if we don't agree
You can hardly claim that I have not put up a case for my views - that you don't agree with it is something else
I've never regarded Mudcat as a fanzine site where we come together to slap each other on the back - I came to learn and share
You've put a lot of time and effort into something you now decide if an "off-topic sub thread" - what took you so long to decide that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:18 AM

Sorry Jim but I think I have lost the thread here.

When you run an outfit where anything counts as folk song, it is a fact Dave
I have heard what you putt up ass folk song and am not particualarly impresses but I am convinced that it bears no relation to folk song
What you linked to did

Firstly, who is running an outfit where anything counts as folk song? Not me as I don't run anything at all!

Next, I am confused as to the difference between 'what I put up as folk music' and 'what I linked to'. Why is the former not folk music but the latter is? I just mentioned what I linked to in context of your statement about what people on here sing. I have not 'put' anything else up as folk song. I think you may be referring to something much earlier when all I am asking for is an explanation of why you think "while what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity".

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:19 AM

...and where did I say anything about "far too argumentative"? :-(

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:41 AM

2Firstly, who is running an outfit where anything counts as folk song? "
These are generally addressed comments not aimed at anybody in particular Dave, but some of the arguments you have put up indicate that you are happy with a scene that does just that
You linked to your club yet put up failed (to one degree or another) or wannabe pop singers
Folk is folk - it defines itself and we've been arguing that definition for some time now
What is being put up as suitable for modern clubs bears no relation to folk as it has always been
The argument seems to be whether a small and diminishing group of folkies can make 'folk' mean sonething else (but seem reluctant to say what exactly (playing a guitar on the street seems to have come nearest - Dublin streets are full of wannaby Tommy Steels (I kid you not), doing just that

"and where did I say anything about "far too argumentative"? "
You didn't - Ray did
Keep up :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:57 AM

Ah, OK. Sorry Jim, but I tend to think a post that starts "When you run an outfit where anything counts as folk song, it is a fact Dave", the statement and therefore the post must be addressed to me. Just call me old fashioned :-)

Having got that out of the way, I suppose I need to re-phrase my question. You say "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity". That is the only statement I am referring to. My question is about what makes you think that. I have posted links to me performing in this thread and you confirm that it is folk music. So it does have a distinct identity. I have not noticed any links to other contributors performing and I am not aware of ever having seen them live so I do not know if they sing folk songs or not. How do you know that what they sing does not have a distinct identity?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:04 AM

Jim, it is commonplace for words to have two (or more) meanings, especially where one is in general use while another has a more technical meaning for specialists. Most activities have their specialist language, because they need to be more specific and nuanced than the general language allows. There is nothing wrong with this jargon, indeed it is absolutely necessary, provided it is used in the correct context.

Your use of "folk" is the technical jargon meaning (for brevity I will write this as "!folk" to distinguish it from the general meaning). It is of necessity precise and restricted in its meaning, and it is intended to be used as a definition of what is under discussion.

The general use of "folk" is more a description of a range of sounds and styles which make up a distinct genre. It is not a definition, and it is not precise because it doesn't need to be. It is mainly concerned with how a performance sounds, rather than the origins of the song itself. It is a useful label to help people to know which rack to go to in record shops, or in the words of Terry Pratchett, to know that "folk music is about to be perpetrated, and give them time to get out of the way." This use of the word has been around since at least the 60s, and possibly earlier, and I do not believe for a moment that you do not understand what it means.

This general use includes traditional song, but this because of the styles in which this is usually performed. Not all !folksong is "folk" - for example, "The Foggy, Foggy Dew" is !folk, but when arranged by Benjamin Britten and performed by Peter Pears it is not "folk". On the other hand, Swan Arcade's version of the Kinks' "Lola" is "folk" because of the style of their performance.

These two meanings are not contradictory or confusing when used in context. However folk clubs exist in the the general world, they are places of entertainment rather than academic study, and it is the general meaning of "folk" which applies to them. Only a small number of clubs restricted themselves entirely to traditional !folk, and that was sufficiently unusual to attract comment. Most clubs have always put on a range of music, including traditional !folk but not limited to it. (Many people interested in "folk" are also interested in !folk, but by no means all of them, and an understanding of !folk is not necessary to enjoy "folk" simply as a form of music).

The reason why I feel this discussion is at cross purposes is that you are insisting on using the jargon !folk meaning when in discussing folk clubs we should be using the general meaning. This is simply pedantic, and unhelpful to the discussion. Folk clubs have always presented a wider range of music than strictly traditional, but usually within the broader scope of "folk" in its general sense.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:18 AM

Howard, whilst I admire your persistence, and completely agree with you, as do many others, you are arguing with a closed mind. Pointless really!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:23 AM

"Your use of "folk" is the technical jargon meaning "
Far from it Howard - it floated outr boat for several decades until it was edged out by an amorphous something else
It still exists in recordings, published collections, labels like Topic, Springthyme, Folktrax and Folkways, and is heavily documented
Over here, just across the Irish Sea, youngsters are finding for the first time in their many thousands and plating and singing it to a perfection that is breathtaking
There is no "general use" of the term folk - most people don't use it , those few who do are guided by its misuse rather than what it actually is.
THere isn't enough agreement of the misuse to have stabalised it into a different meaning

Look - in the end, the misuse doesn't interest me other than the damage it has had done and continues to do on the real thing
None of you seem to be prepared to discuss that damage, which confirms MacColl's words for me - "Folk song will only die if it falls into the hands of those who don;t like it or don't understand it"
Until some of you are prepared to discuss the real thing, I see little point in these circles we seem to be moving in
The Kinks - Really !!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

"Howard, whilst I admire your persistence, and completely agree with you, as do many others, you are arguing with a closed mind. Pointless really!"
Is that why you gave up sever threads ago and stood on the sidelines egging others on Steve ?
New Research writ large
Please take part or butt out - you can't have it both ways
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:27 AM

Don't get distracted, Jim. I asked first! :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:38 AM

Oh yes I can!!!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 07:42 AM

"Oh yes I can!!!"
Snipe away then Steve and it will be treated with teh contempt it merits
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 08:40 AM

Yes really...

I would say that the songs written by Ray Davies of the Kinks around the height of the 'folk' boom were some of the most perceptive and interesting of any written around that time.
a few- Dead End Street
      Sunny Afternoon
      Village Green Preservation Society

I will not make any comparison with 'folk' or 'contemporary' songs of that era, but I'd recommend that any critic of the Kinks should actually listen to the words, always sung in an identifiably English accent.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:09 AM

I guess I will have to wait for a reply until you return from seeing Hamlet.

I suppose There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Jim, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. :-)

If it is after lunchtime tomorrow I will be hiding in a Dales pub, drinking good beer, singing (non folk) songs and offline :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:14 AM

When Roy Bailey died recently many newspapers carried obtuaries, in which he was invariably referred to as a "folksinger". They didn't feel the need to explain the term, so presumably they expected their readers to understand it. Of course, since many of his songs were not traditional they were not "folk", according to you, so this is another misuse of the term. However there is clearly no point in trying to persuade you of the meaning of the English language.

We are discussing folk clubs. If "folk" means the traditional music which came from the people, are you saying that folk clubs should present only traditional songs? If that is the case then the rot set in during the 60s boom, because most of the clubs were already including other songs as well.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Jim, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

If you want education and research you can use the resources of a library or the internet.
If you want entertainment you can go to a folk club or many other venues.
In a folk club the audience may or may not participate to varying extents. They are entertained by a mix of material loosely labelled folk. It may be traditional, it may have been written last week, It may be in a published source, it may not.
It may be subjected to copyright it may not, this may apply to the arrangement, lyrics, or both.
some may be interested in the origin of the material others may not.
It is a broad church therefore it should be no surprise that what is regarded asfolk is equally broad. Trying to pigeonhole a minor spectrum of the material into one box and exclude everything else is not going to fly.
Traditional folk was composed in a traditional way as we have been told ad nauseum. But to quote a well known modern folksong:
Like my house that fell to progress my trade's a memory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SB4gB3DEhA

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM

No one really has an identity when they sing. You take on (or attempt to take on) the persona of the person making the statement.

Isn't that right?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 10:18 AM

500!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 03:57 AM

501... and still no answer to the question. Congrats.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 04:39 AM

I've forgotten what the question was!

:D

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 08:48 AM

the answer was 42 whatever it was

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM

Jim Bainbridge makes an interesting point. I have raved on about the Kinks ad nauseam to anyone who'd listen, particularly American friends. To my mind the most English of bands, Ray Davies' lyrics capture the time and the mood which I remember so well. As you say, singing in an English accent helps, and to Jim's list I'd add the song 'Victoria' ...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 02:55 AM

" I have posted links to me performing in this thread and you confirm that it is folk music"
Not if it's buried in evenings full of songs that have no identity to what you have sung
The clubs I was involved with were grounded in folk styles - the majority of songs were traditional, the rest were overwhelmingly similar in style and objective
I go to a Classical concert to hear classical and classically based music - the same with Jazz, C and W, hip-hop, - any genre you care to name
I ask again - why should folk be any different ?
I quite enjoyed the frothiness of The Kinks back in the day, (I quite liked Buddy Holly and Rickie nelson and some of the other outpourings of the Music Industry) but "when I became a man I put aside foolish things" as they say
SFA to do with the slices of cultural history ot human drama that the fokk songs are
I think the fact that The KInks have been raised as likely candidates for today's folk scene makes my point far better than i can
I can just see the thousands of today's youth filling the folkk lubs to listen to their songs - are you people puling my chain !!!
Jim Carrollo

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:43 AM

"The clubs I was involved with were grounded in folk styles - the majority of songs were traditional, the rest were overwhelmingly similar in style and objective". So what are "the rest" to be called, if not "folk"?

That was exactly my point, that "folk" as presented in the folk clubs goes beyond traditional song and is a matter of style rather than origin. The point where modern songs performed in that style cease to be "similar in style and objective" to traditional songs is always going to be blurred, and individual opinions on where the line should fall will inevitably differ.

Folk clubs are first and foremost places of entertainment rather than scholarship - whilst an understanding of folk tradition and folk process can add to one's enjoyment (which can be said of any form of music) it is not essential in order to enjoy it. For many people, what attracts them to folk music in the first place is how it sounds and what it says, if that leads them to an understanding of its roots then so much the better.

I was not suggesting that the Kinks' "Lola" is by its nature a folksong (although it tells a story), what I was saying is that Swan Arcade's performance in a folk style made it suitable for a folk club. In the same way, Britten's treatment of "Foggy Dew" and Pears' singing style took outside the scope of folk clubs, although it cannot alter the fact that the original is folksong.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM

Well Jim, put me down as enjoying the Kinks' 'frothiness' and to never having become a man and therefore to not having 'put aside foolish things'. I don't suggest their songs are candidates for folk songs, but just like McColl's 'Dirty Old Town' they're bloody good. Or am I straying from the discussion...yes, probably...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

Swan Arcade - Lola

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:16 AM

"Well Jim, put me down as enjoying the Kinks'"
Fine - but personal taste has nothing do do with discussion other than to underline the craziness of the 'anything goes policy now adopted by many here
I didn't introduce them to this discussion
Neither did I ever describe Dirty old Town aS A FOLK SONG - Ewas was first in the queue to insit it wasn't
"as presented in the folk clubs goes beyond traditional song and is a matter of style rather than origin. "

My point exactly - from day one, but all the clubs I was part of had their feet firmly set on the real thing


I met her in a club down in North Soho
Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like cherry cola
C-O-L-A cola
She walked up to me and she asked me to dance
I asked her name and in a dark brown voice she said, "Lola"
L-O-L-A Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola

Well, I'm not the world's most physical guy
But when she squeezed me tight she nearly broke my spine
Oh my Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Well, I'm not dumb but I can't understand
Why she walk like a woman and talk like a man
Oh my Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola

Well, we drank champagne and danced all night
Under electric candlelight
She picked me up and sat me on her knee
And said, "Little boy won't you come home with me?"
Well, I'm not the world's most passionate guy
But when I looked in her eyes
Well, I almost fell for my Lola
Lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola lo lo lo lo Lola lo lo lo lo Lola

I pushed her away, I walked to the door
I fell to the floor, I got down on my knees
I looked at her, and she at me
Well that's the way that I want it to stay
And I always want it to be that way for my Lola
Lo lo lo lo Lola

Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls
It's a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world
Except for Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Well I left home just a week before
And I've never ever kissed a woman before
But Lola smiled and took me by the hand
And said, "Little boy, gonna make you a man"
Well I'm not the world's most masculine man
But I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man
And so is Lola

Lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola...

Very folky, I'm sure
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:17 AM

Maybe the tedious repetition was used for hauling up the mainsheet
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:31 AM

Sortry - forgot to add "for crying out loud"
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:54 AM

I suppose Lola tells a story of a time and place and a cultural milieu
It tells a remarkable story of how gay love became the love that dared speak its name in a country where it had once been punishable by death.
Pretty much as little Armstrong or one of those related songs, where the lord of the manor could do what he wants.

And yes. young people do enjoy finding songs and music the radio has stopped playing on their stations. Its like that business of hackneyed folksongs. Since they don't do programmes like Singing Together - young people (many of them) don't know the staples of English and American folksong.

You've got an agenda, Jim. Fair enough. So have the people running folk clubs. Why argue. We're all on the side of the angels.

Nobody's running a club for serial murderers. I don't think.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 07:01 AM

"You've got an agenda, Jim"
No al - I've got a definition - where's yours
This gets more nonsensical as it progresses

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 07:07 AM

the way A
Most certainly have an agenda - to hel sort of the wheat from the crap and help prevent folk music from disappearing down the plughole of indifference and antipathy
I argue because I care what happens to olk music
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:11 AM

How is it ever going to disappear?

Its there in the museums, on the internet, on cd, in archives, in folk clubs, university courses, dull as fuck programmes on BBC4 . and BBC Alba, digital radio stations, folk festivals, summer schools......

Like jazz. Its context will change. i don't suppose theres too many Jelly Roll Mortons playing piano in sporting houses. But thats how it is.

Remember Jurassic Park...Life will find a way!

Perhaps someone will extract the DNA of folksingers and in a million years, they will give us our own theme park and we will rise up and eat people!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:19 AM

Bit spiteful Al - I thought you were above that
Byee - off to find someone else top talk to
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:24 AM

It comes to something when an outsider revivalist corrects a member of the Copper Family about their attitude towarda folk/traditional somgs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:56 AM

the man's crackers

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 09:05 AM

Spiteful....moi?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 09:07 AM

that was intended as friendly badinage, mon ami!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 09:09 AM

I wasn't claiming that the song itself was "folky" (whatever that means), although it has a strong narrative which makes social and cultural point which is perhaps even more relevant in today's gender-flexible times than when it was written. The story is perhaps not a million miles from the countless folk songs about unfortunate sailors who were taken advantage of in some low dive, although in most of them the woman was just that.

You are on dangerous ground when you criticise it for repetition, considering how common that is in traditional song. Even the spelling out of the name has parallels in traditional songs ("and Bingo was his name, sir...")

My real point is that Swan Arcade's performance was "folky" in style, and was entirely at home in a folk club and sat perfectly well alongside traditional songs (which they also sang). That's not just my opinion but that of the many folk club and folk festival organisers who booked them, their audiences who enjoyed listening to them, and Fellside (a reputable folk label) who recorded their albums. It's difficult to think what sort of musical venue would have been more appropriate, if not a folk club.

"all the clubs I was part of had their feet firmly set on the real thing" So were the clubs I was part of, including ones which booked Swan Arcade, and so are the clubs I continue to go to.

The folk scene may not be as strong as it used to be, but the picture is not as bad as you paint, and it is still firmly based on traditional music and music which is stylistically similar. It has always been a broad church, and has included a great deal of music which was not to my personal taste but which I've never felt was a threat to the music I do like.

There are plenty of young people involved, Traditional music isn't going to be forgotten.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 09:20 AM

It has no 'strong narrative' Howard - where's the story
Ther characters are unidentified, as is the place, it is a descrip[tion only of emotions
It doesn't sound like a folk song, it belongs to somebody other than 'the folk' and can never the property of anybody but the composer - folk songs are in the public domain
It has no caim whatever oto the folk scene and claiming it dioes has done much to damage the understanding of what folk song really is and perpresnts - 'The Voice of the People'

"that was intended as friendly badinage, mon ami!"
I didn't and don't take being aclled a dinosaur friemdly in any way Al - it happens far too often to be funny
You appear to have joined the club
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 10:01 AM

Whoops! my enthusiasm for the music of The Kinks overcame common sense...I knew I shouldn't have joined in.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 10:12 AM

I admit my attempts to draw parallels between the text of "Lola" and folk songs were simply being naughty, and my argument for admitting into folk clubs is specifically about Swan Arcade's folk-style performance, I wouldn't admit the Kinks' original version because their style is incompatible with what you expect in a folk club

"folk songs are in the public domain". True for traditional songs, but not for "the rest", which you've agreed were part of the clubs you were involved with. Once you admit modern composed songs it is then a question of taste where you draw the line. If you want to draw it tightly around traditional song and songs which sound just like them that's your prerogative, but many people who take an interest in folk are willing to take a broader view. What they do expect is that the songs are presented in a style which sounds "folky".

What I strongly disagree with is that these somehow present a threat to traditional songs, when my experience is they can sit perfectly well alongside them, as they have done from the early days of the folk revival. When I go to a folk club I don't expect to enjoy everything I hear, but my enjoyment is based far more on the style and quality of the performance than whether it is a traditional or a modern song, despite my tastes leaning strongly towards traditional music and song.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 02:48 PM

Course we're bleeding dinosaurs.

One of my chief pleasures is bumping into another dinosaur.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM

"What I strongly disagree with is that these somehow present a threat to traditional songs, "
Go count the lost clubs and folkies and pout that up against why they left
Not a bad formula for assessing the damage Howard
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:59 PM

Jim,
I can't think of a single person from the folkscene, and I must know thousands personally, who has left the folk scene because of some perception of the content. You have been repeatedly told by many people in England who are in the thick of it that the scene has changed from one centred on folk clubs to a whole range of scenarios promoting traditional and contemporary folk music. I have just come from a 3-hour concert in the middle of a big city that was attended by people from 2 weeks old (my nephew, Barney) to my 95-year-old traditional singer mother. The performers gave a wide range of songs mostly traditional, some contemporary, about half unaccompanied. The place was packed out. I'd say less than half the audience were folkies, but that's by the by.
You have definitely been deceived!! Or is it that closed mind of yours?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:17 PM

Al
I'm a stegosaurus? What are you?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:49 PM

Al is a Protoceratops(andrewsi) that keeps encountering a raptor(mongoliensis))

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:19 PM

'Ther characters are unidentified, as is the place, it is a descrip[tion only of emotions'

You could say the same about The Unquiet Grave.

Does anyone else remember the one in Going to see the Wild West Show about the Rhinosauras?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:24 PM

Vaguely!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 02:33 AM

Folk clubs close for a number of different reasons, they are very often run by volunteers, they are often in seperate club rooms..in the last 60 years uk society has changed enormously.,the number of tenat owned pubs has fallen many have closed many are now run by managers who only stay on the premises for a relatively short while, this affects the availabilty of rooms, these are contributory factors to the fall in numbers of folk clubs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 02:53 AM

"I can't think of a single person from the folkscene, and I must know thousands personally, who has left the folk scene because of some perception of the content. "
I can think of around a dozen clubs that closed because of the change of content - eventually hundreds closed, the magazines collapsed, the specialist shops and the labels disappeared closed

There was a major debate on the pages of several magazines, Folk Review being the instigator, covering the content, the poor standards and the general deterioration of the clubs
It stands to sense that people looking for The Flying Cloud and Tifties Annie are not going to settle for The Kinks (that and other such nonsense is what is being argued for as 'folk' here)
The scene didn't dwindle - it bombed.
What has happened in England is appalling - both in the clubs and on the academic front
We know what folk sonh is and, even if we didn't that are plenty of places where we can look
I need no 'closed mind' to state my case - you and others have told me what I can expect from today's folk clubs and it ain't folk in any shape or form

I really never thought I would see a researcher use the term 'folk police' on a discussion on definition of folk song - that is downright disgraceful
We apparently have a self-appointed research team who has taken it on themselves to dismantle over a centuries work and replace it with.... I can only assume, personal taste - nothing else makes sense
Any researcher who has to take out past workers in the field in order to get their own theories accepted are best avoided as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:30 AM

Sorry - missed a bit Howard
"simply being naughty"
Whatever your personal intentions Howard, it is fascinating to witness those who agree with your argument sprinting our of the wainscoting - well done you
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM

well, when specifically - did it bomb, in your opinion?

I suppose you could be talking about a period before I joined the folkscene in 1964.

Perhaps it was me that did all the damage, and things were lovely before I turned up. If so, my apologies to all.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:39 AM

"well, when specifically - did it bomb, in your opinion?"
The scene as a whole bombed Al and had been predicted to do so if things didn't improve - they got worse
Your facetious comments neither help the discussion nor do they do much for your own image
I've said what I believe to be the cause;
Ji,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:39 AM

Well, Jim here is the question I posed.

You say "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity". That is the only statement I am referring to. My question is about what makes you think that. I have posted links to me performing in this thread and you confirm that it is folk music. So it does have a distinct identity. I have not noticed any links to other contributors performing and I am not aware of ever having seen them live so I do not know if they sing folk songs or not. How do you know that what they sing does not have a distinct identity?

Your response

Not if it's buried in evenings full of songs that have no identity to what you have sung

Followed by a diatribe about folk clubs you used to go to. You may be answering a question but it certainly is not the one I asked! So I repeat. How do you know that the people on here sing songs with no identity?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:02 AM

my image.....oh dear!

I will contact my publicity manager and inform him of your concerns. With any luck they will keep it out of froots and all those radio programmes that play my music constantly and have been such a source of strength in my career.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM

discomfort in the nether regions comes to mind re Jim Carroll's views

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:56 AM

"discomfort in the nether regions comes to mind re Jim Carroll's views
Very profound, sorry for giving your brain a nudge
"You may be answering a question but it certainly is not the one I asked! "
You may not have likesd the anwer Dave, but answered it was
You have argued for all sorts of music veing valid at folk clubs - what does one of your songs prove other than one folk song was sung that night ?
The fact that you consider my description of the clubs I was used to be a "diatribe" only serves to convoince me that I would have to think very hard before I came out in the pissing rain to visit your club
Why use terms like "diatribe" - not conducive with an exchange of ideas - not unlike our friend with a pain in the arse/brain
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:11 AM

Dave
You keep demanding answers to your questions yet have yet to respond to most of mine
Some time ago I put up a list of things I believe make folk song unique, yo ignored it - I asked again
I also asked how the '54 definition you put up as being your take on folk song fitted in with much of what you claim to come under the 'folk' umbrella
So far oyu have replied to none of this
Be good enough to do so
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:22 AM

Isn't it in the subject line? The nature of booms is that don't last long, that's why they are called booms. How long can the word 'revival' be applied to something?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:30 AM

During the 60's access to folk was vinyl radio, tv and for a few reel to reel. Many contemporary folk artists were around then and the genre had huge exposure on radio and tv compared to today. The medium consisted of artist/e audience with some floor singers, depending on venue. Julie Felix, Judy Collins, Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez etc etc. they all performed and the audience was passive. Interaction was maybe the odd chorus and polite applause. There were no hoary hands of the soil hiding in the bogs making transcripts and changing verses wholesale to tell the world about how their bright red combine harvester threw a wobbler halfway thru harvest. The dynamics of traditional folk no longer existed in the folk clubs. The artist performed, the audience watched and listened. End of. I would argue that as the electronic mediums have expanded the need for attending folk clubs has shrunk. From cassette players to walkmans, to mp3s and the internet vastly more material is available for instant download and fairly extensive research can be carried out online for those that have an interest. I wonder to what extent sessions have replaced traditional folk clubs?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:47 AM

"The nature of booms is that don't last long, "
The folk boom lasted for about 2/3 years, up to the pointgt when the Industry decided they's made there money and moved on elsewhere
When they'd gone the clubs flourished and, free from the demands of the media they began to explore the repertoire and the styles - that lasted for at least another two decades and would have continued had the "anything goes anyhow" moved in - now their bombing
Folk song continues to nbe important but has lost its public face
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:52 AM

I suppose you'd have to ask someone who relies on them to earn a crust. I would think most artists in the folk world have to diversify - teaching skills, touring abroad , playing at ceildhs. working as an extra/background artiste in television used to be the province of many folkies in my day.

Guitars have got cheaper, but squeezeboxes have got more expensive (it seems to me). And harmonicas. I bought some as a present recently and they seemed incredibly expensive to me.

I'm only really in contact with one guy doing the folkscene regularly as principal source of revenue. he seems to work regularly enough.

I notice that alot of artists nowadays seem to do concerts in village halls, which I can't remember in the 1960's. Programmes like Artsreach.

as you say - things do change. Perhaps folk music has gone a bit up market from the old folkclub. I suppose the price of petrol made that inevitable. When Peggy and Ewan used to play the clubs for £60, and Tony Capstick cost £35, you could fill a car up with petrol for thirty bob.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 11:34 AM

"I suppose you'd have to ask someone who relies on them to earn a crust."
Why should I be interested how anybody earns a living - the folk clubs were set up so we could make our own music rather than pay someone to do it for us
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 11:44 AM

the folk clubs were set up so we could make our own music rather than pay someone to do it for us

Not the ones that I went to.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 12:39 PM

the folk clubs were set up so we could make our own music rather than pay someone to do it for us

How did people make their own music before that - 'traditionally'?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 12:43 PM

i used to go there to see visiting artists for about ten years, before i considered myself good enough to perform in public. i think maybe it was ar least another two or three years before i actually was good enough to entertain anyone.

i suppose it depends on how seriously one considers oneself as an artist.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 12:49 PM

"How did people make their own music before that - 'traditionally'?"
At home usually, but it died and we decided to revive it
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM

You have argued for all sorts of music veing valid at folk clubs

Give me one example of my having done so, Jim. You keep saying things like that and when challenged, never finding any examples. That is because there are none. I think you are attributing someone else's posts to me. I have only ever said folk music, both traditional and contemporary, is what folk clubs are for. I started a separate thread to see If there was a general consensus of what constitutes a contemporary folk song and it you want to see what is the general view on that feel free to read that thread.

You also said "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity" and have spectacularly managed to avoid explaining how you came to that conclusion.

As to "Some time ago I put up a list of things I believe make folk song unique, yo ignored it - I asked again". There does not seem to be a question in that. How can I answer it?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Attendee
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM

How did people make their own music before that - 'traditionally'?

The short answer to your question GUEST,jag is - Yes that is exactly how they did it, with regard to Gaelic working songs, they normally had no accompaniment, they had no written music, they were normally made up and sung by women and they were passed on by mouth.

the folk clubs were set up so we could make our own music rather than pay someone to do it for us

That was certainly the case back when "Skiffle" broke away from its Jazz background, and it is the case in my area now where folk clubs book about twelve Guest performers each year. The folk club regulars always turn up to sing and play at the "session" nights but rarely if ever turn up to hear the Guest artists where the clubs get a completely different audience. Unfortunately you never know what you might hear at the "session" nights.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: beachcomber
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 11:22 AM

Remember the old BBC LIGHT PROGRAMME used to broadcast a Sunday morning show in the early 1950s, with recordings of folk singers from around the country side of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The programme was titled "AS I RODE OUT" and,in fact, the signature tune was a recording of Sarah Maken from Keady, Co. Armagh in N.I. singing "As I rode out on a May morning". This lady was the mother of Tommy Makem who sang and played banjo with the Clancy Brothers.
I do not remember if any singers or musicians from the Irish Republic were included but I feel that they were not. Growing up in rural Ireland I was quite used to hearing the Sean Nos style of singing as well as the old adapted humourous songs, from Music Hall and Irish American sources.
Perhaps it is wrong to call the latter kind "Irish" , maybe Anglo-Irish would be more appropriate but they were welcomed at weddings, Christenings and even some wakes around where I lived. The tradition of singing and entertaining carried them with it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 12:23 PM

Still have a couple of as I Roved Out programme - It did include singers from the Republic
The collection it drew from was carried out by the BBC at that time and includes some of the very best recordings of folk songs ever made, especially those from The Northern Counties - still largely unheard
One of the singers was Mamo Clancy, mother to the Clancy Brothers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 03:16 PM

On a number of occasions in the last two years , when i have been guesting in uk folk clubs, audience members have approached me in the break and remarked how much they enjoyed hearing some trad songs and saying, they would prefer it if more guest singers sang trad material .

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:38 AM

Confirms what a rare beast trad songs have become as far as I'm concerned Dick - keep up the good work
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:35 AM

Maintaining the performance of traditional songs can be difficult for performers ~ the problem is that audiences need to be receptive and knowledgeable

Venues such as the more controllable folk clubs in pubs are diminishing, however mixed sessions of songs and music (such as melodeons, concertinas etc) also provide an opportunity to sing unaccompanied songs

The used of pas and the ever increasing move with the times also tends to make the singing and appreciation of traditional songs a problem ~ and of course the need for folk singers to make a living

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:48 AM

" and of course the need for folk singers to make a living"
I knew very few singers who needed to Ron - they did it for the love of the songs as people have always done
The scene was setup to escape the situation where money was the driving force - now were back where we started it seems
I agree audiences need to be receptivve, but "knowledgeable" - surely not
You get to know about songs by listening to them - knowledge comes to those do
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 07:38 AM

I'm not sure about that. I remember someone criticising Arnold wesker's play Roots as naive. In the play Beatty (the country girl who has been working in the city and become 'sophisticated ' by her Jewish lover) . She's very rejecting of her parents when she returns to her rural Norfolk Home. Anyway she plays some classical music ( Bizet) to her Mum and soon they are both dancing round the living room in exuberant appreciation of the music.

Similarly in his play Chips with Everything. Its about some RAF national Servicemean. Its a dance and the boys are dancing round, getting drunk and fooling around to some vapid pop music. Much to the delight of the officers. But the 'hero' interrupts this with a rendition of The Cutty Wren. And he sweeps up a passionate response by the other recruits.

Wesker was criticised. Critics said - mere exposure to a superior cultural experience will not do the trick. Which I always thought chimed in with my experience of the world also.   the artist has (in my experience) to skillfully present his work with every artifice and aid known to man. Using all his cunning and intelligence. I loved Magic Lantern and the way Taffy Thomas and Tim laycock presented the ballads.

Still its only my view of things. I can understand other people think that only an uncompromisingly pure delivery will protect the tradition. I don't think both views need to be exclusive.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM

Jim the Folk scene has and is changing and is much more "healthy" than it was in the 1960s ~ believe it or not there are quite a number of "young thrusters" {Sid Kipper term} who at the very least rely on folk song and music as part of their semi pro/ft income ~ some also teach on folk related courses and have have other jobs

The 1960s folk singers ~ well yes some were indeed full time folkies reliant on folk club gigs and festival income ~ some were semi professional and some were "just" devoted to the music and its continuance with or without financial reward ~ long may it be so!

I think it is important to note the role of drink throughout which has and had good and bad points to its use by musicians and singers and of course the money derived from its sale

By the by a recently received copy of the EFDSS magazine does show how well the younger stalwarts are doing and how things were and have now changed

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:12 PM

2Has anyone got any GOOD news about Brexit?2
changed yes - no folk scene that can't guarantee folk songs can be described as healthy bcan be described as healthy by any stretch of teh imagination, neither can a scene that can't define what has replaced folk song
The movement towards payment as an incentive is a huge step back to the dauys of a music industry controlled culture - the very thing the clubs were set up to escape
It has been more or less admitted that the clubs have moved towards a guest policy rather than resident reliant clubs
Also admitted is the shift from clubs to festivals as venues
Rod Stradling's editorial poined out that Dance and Song had more or less abandoned traditional song, so I checked their site to find that, while they have dine a magnificent job on digitising Sharp's diaries, the only sound items were one, not unpleasant but not likely to inspire meodeon piece and around a dozen very mediocre singer/songwriter performances that bore no relation to folk song
Young stalwarts maty be 'doing well' but folk song appears to gone out of the window.
How can that be described as "healthy"
You don't have to go far to gauge the present health of the folk scene -the arguments put up on these threads save you the journey
Sorry Ray (and sorry for getting your name wrong previously)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:54 PM

This whole thread reminds me of a letter about stop and search in a newspaper just after the 1981 Brixton riots.

The point was that the writer had a lovely village bobby in the middle of rural Norfolk therefore there was nothing wrong with the Metropolitan Police in the inner city.

Most of the arguements seem to bwe based on similar extrapolation. I could give a list of clubs where you would be lucky to hear one trad song in a night and another of clubs where trad was predominant. Pick the list that fits your preconceptions.

Curiously in my examples it is the singers clubs where trad has died out and the guest booking clubs where residents are more likely to sing trad material.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:10 PM

Surely the massive reduction of clubs accross the board needs to be a major issue here
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:30 PM

Well if traditional singing was traditionally "At home usually, but it died and we decided to revive it" (Jim) and the clubs with traditional singing have died maybe you should start one to revive the revival?

Me, I'd prefer a pub session, as was described way up the thread.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:41 PM

"maybe you should start one to revive the revival?"
Not being part of a living tradition, retreating to your home would be meaningless - in fact, a retreat
The problem with pub singing you lay yourself open to hostility from locals who may not be into that sort of thing or singing over a noise
We have descriptions of kitchen singing where long ballads could be sung to a totally receptive audience - can't think of a pub I've ever been in where that could happen
The same goes for good music sessions - we constantly hear complaints from some of our best musicians about being treated as 'muzak' in pubs
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:07 PM

Just a gentle reminder, Jim. See Date: 03 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM .

Ta.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:41 AM

quote - "Surely the massive reduction of clubs accross the board needs to be a major issue here
Jim"

Only if folk clubs continue to be the main thrust of the revival. Several knowledgeable involved people have given the opinion that this is no longer the case,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:45 AM

" 03 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM ."
This gets beyond a joke Dave - I have responded to this and all of your questions
You stillm stoically refuse to mine or to my responses
Somewhat pissing in the wind I think
When you start to reciprocate, I'll repeat the answers I have already given
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:02 AM

Jim, I have experienced receptive pub audiences, but it is rare as you say to be able to sing more than one story ballad at a time.
The singers club in cork is an exception so is the dublin goilin club
Jim you are indeed pissing in the wind trying to communicate with Dave the gnome.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:58 AM

"The movement towards payment as an incentive is a huge step back to the dauys of a music industry controlled culture - the very thing the clubs were set up to escape
It has been more or less admitted that the clubs have moved towards a guest policy rather than resident reliant clubs
Also admitted is the shift from clubs to festivals as venues"

Folk clubs are not in my view folk clubs if they simply book guests ~ they are Folk Concert clubs!

Folk clubs are places that people go to play music and sing and that are open to audiences ~ I frequent such clubs ~ and are I suppose now deemed mixed sing and play ~ people tend to simply start a song or whatever and people listen and join in with the music etc ~ as Dick says trad ballads are tolerated ~ I tend to stick to chorusy songs ~ but do sing the tradition too

Times are and have changed as has the musicianship for the better by and large ~ new breed do take too much for granted and are looking for payment for their services ~ there are some brilliant newcomers I have to say!

Professional singers rely very much on the Folk concerts and other suitable venues promoting folk entertainment

Folk 21 members have their own axe to grind btw (facebook)

WE oldies are I think more aware of social issues in song history too

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:07 AM

I have responded to this and all of your questions

I must have missed that then. Where did I say that anything should go at folk clubs and what makes you think that people on here sing songs with 'no identity'?

As to answering you questions, I pointed out on the referenced post that "Some time ago I put up a list of things I believe make folk song unique, yo ignored it - I asked again", is not a question, it is a statement. I have no idea how to answer it. Let me know what question comes out of that and I will gladly comply.

I think you are confused as to who said what and which arguments you are having with whom

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:45 AM

Did you not put Ed Sheeran's material and way of singing up ave - must have been somebody else ?
I've been bombarded with so many strange suggestions of what passes for folk song 'the Kinks, for crying out loud !) tat you're beginning to look all the same (hope that doesn't sound racist !)

There, you've done it again; elicited a response without giving one yourself
Not knowinghow to answer a list of basic points that I believe make folk song unique is not an answer for someone involved in folk song Dave

"Folk clubs are not in my view folk clubs if they simply book guests ~ they are Folk Concert clubs!"
That shift has been heralded over and over again as proof that the scene is in a good state - we seem to be arriving at common ground

"and that are open to audiences "
Not sure about this - the sing-around clubs were very much late arrivals on the scene
The early format as I knew it was nights run by residents with an occasional guest night   
The best clubs had some sort of set up where new singers could be drawn in and encouraged to develop - when the Critics Group began around a dozen similar groups or workshops sprang up

"as Dick says trad ballads are tolerated "
Isn't that statement in itself evience of a decline - ballads were regarded as "the high-watermark of the tradition", Hamish Henderson entitled them "The Muckle Sangs" (the big songs)
Why should they need to be "tolerated"?

People looking for payment need to look elsewhere - they are a drain on the promotion of the revival unless they are prepared to take an active part in developing other singers - many did at one time - I see few doing it in England now
Ireland is different in the sense that many of our great new musicians came from the efforts of more experienced ones running workshops - now many of the younger ones ate teaching others
Professional musicians' needs are their own business
I don't think there are enough aware oldies to float a revival - us 'dying off' has been cited as an excuse for the decline
To tell the truth, I've been astounded at some of the statements I've read lately from oldies who really should know better

I would like to deal with Dick's interesting point about narrative songs in Ireland, but I'll do it separately - I bank on far too long as it is
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

Well it might be so for unaccompanied singers, a big step back. But decent instruments don't buy themselves. no one makes a fortune, but some slight remuneration for doing a gig doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

God alone knows how squeezebox players get together eight and fifteen grand for concertinas.

Its this view of being the alpha and omega of folk music, and being so tetchy with it that makes one feel at odds all the bloody time. No one can say anything right, except, I agree.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM

I did put Ed Sheeran up and a link of him performing a traditional folk song. Regardless of who is singing it, a traditional folk song is a traditional folk song surely? I put SOME of his own material up as an example of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" as we must now call contemporary folk!

Not knowinghow to answer a list of basic points that I believe make folk song unique is not an answer for someone involved in folk song Dave

Sorry Jim, but a list of points is still not a question. How does one go on about answering a list of points?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:44 AM

"I did put Ed Sheeran up and a link of him performing a traditional folk song."
He wasn't singing a traditional folk song - (or maybe I missed it)
If you're not going to respond to what I said, perhaps you might describe what you mean by 'traditional'
The songs I heard had little, if anything to do with 'folk forms) - not one of them could be described as narrative ot word based
I actually asked you how your attitude towards what takes place in a folk club corresponds with my analysis of what a folk song is - several times

"But decent instruments don't buy themselves. no one makes a fortune"
Fine Al - but if I want to do something I buy the tools I can afford
If a dying revival has to support expensive instruments for guests.... I don't know what to say other than , why not try singing traditional songs in a traditional manner - unaccompanied
"I agree."
Or a rational argument against Al - isn't that what makes exchanging ideas interesting ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM

The Wild Mountain Thyme , was it not written by one of the MCPEAKES?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 07:48 AM

Well to be honest -its more your lot than mine who have the posh instruments.
All my stuff -though I have a lot of it - comes from across the pacific and costs less than a thousand - usually about half that.   I've got a lot of gear cos I was a gigging muso for many years. theres no collectors editions - its just stuff to do the job.

By and large, i suppose wealthy middle classes buy the instruments of which I speak. I don't know if you know the work of Keith kendrich - he's done yeoman work researching and performing traditional derbyshire songs.

He told me one of his concertinas was about eight grand and the other one was really expensive! Similarly Brian peters plays an expensive squeeze box and guitar. I suppose the thinking is that these songs deserve the best instruments he can afford. I'm sure Brian isn't a wealthy man. he's just doing his best.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM

He wasn't singing a traditional folk song - (or maybe I missed it)

Ed Sheeran - The Parting Glass

The songs I heard had little, if anything to do with 'folk forms) - not one of them could be described as narrative ot word based

Gallway Girl is a narrative about how he met his love and Nancy Mulligan tells of how his parents met and married despite their liaison being frowned upon.

I am not saying either of them are folk songs. I am saying they are "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" and that is subjective.

I actually asked you how your attitude towards what takes place in a folk club corresponds with my analysis of what a folk song is

And I have actually answered many times as well. Traditional folk song is taken as read. Traditional folk songs belong in folk clubs. That leaves "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Of those I think we agree on the majority. The ones in question are a matter of taste or interpretation.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM

Now, what makes you think that "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity"? Presuming that 'here' means the Mudcat Cafe, how many Mudcatters have you heard singing anything and in what way do those you have heard not have a distinct identity?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:16 AM

"Well to be honest -its more your lot than mine who have the posh instruments. "
Not sure what you mean Al (who is my lot?
I don't play an instrument and Enlishh traditional song is historically unaccompanied and doesn't need an instrument
I had a Wheatstone concertina once - unbelievably, it cost me £10 and I ver learned how to play it properly
My guitar, which I hardly ever play cost me about £50
As I said, it is the responsibility of the musician to arm him?herself if they feel the necessity
It really should not be a club issue
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:18 AM

Peggy Seeger is the most skillful accompanists I know - at a lecture on on accompaniment we recorded from her she began "The first think you have to decide about accompaniment is, "is it necessary?""
I cam live with that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:26 AM

last time i counted sixty different guitars had gone through my hands. i think i sold all of them at a loss.

derek Brimstone used to laugh at me. He'd say - I've had ONE guitar in all that time! But Derek was on the folkscene at an advantageous time. He got to establish his name when there was a lot of interest in folk music.

On the other hand, he was older than me - so I'm still alive, and he's dead. I've had to do all sorts of gigs to keep working, Derek just had the one gig.

Heres my latest. Its an Epiphone Sheraton 335 - a bit like John Lee Hooker and BB King played. Got on ebay on 10% off day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKu98Xvyfd8

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 07:52 AM

Are there any leftover unanswered questions, Jim?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM

"
Are there any leftover unanswered questions, Jim?"
Have you started answering them Dave ?
Not as I have noticed - not by you or anybody else
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:26 AM

Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:45 AM

Question, from Jim. "I actually asked you how your attitude towards what takes place in a folk club corresponds with my analysis of what a folk song is - several times"

Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM

Answer, from Dave. "And I have actually answered many times as well. Traditional folk song is taken as read. Traditional folk songs belong in folk clubs. That leaves "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Of those I think we agree on the majority. The ones in question are a matter of taste or interpretation."

Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM
Statement from Jim. "Have you started answering them Dave ?
Not as I have noticed - not by you or anybody else"

I thought I had answered. What am I missing?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM

no he just answers questions he wasn't asked & at length

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM

"The ones in question are a matter of taste or interpretation."
No it isn't Dave - taste has nothing whatever to do with anything
As far as interpretation is concerned, unless contemporary songs sound as if they derive from traditional forms they have no lace in folk clubs - people who turn up to listen to folk or folk sounding songs and are not given what they want are being conned
You still bang on about Ed Seeran even though his songs cannot remotely be claimed to sound like anything the tradition has produced - in style or form
"no he just answers questions he wasn't asked & at length"
Sorry you didn't get the answers you wanted, but answers they certainly where
Can you point out anything I haven't responded to ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:34 AM

So, Jim, you asked what my attitude was and I told you. How have I not responded?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:57 AM

Remind me - I think you said you didn't know
DDo you really think that to be a satisfactory answer
How on earth does Sheeran fit into all this - surely you know if you made the claim he did ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM

I'll clarify, Jim.

Simple question from you. Nothing to do with anything or anyone else.

I actually asked you how your attitude towards what takes place in a folk club corresponds with my analysis of what a folk song is

I answered that by saying

Traditional folk song is taken as read. Traditional folk songs belong in folk clubs. That leaves "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Of those I think we agree on the majority. The ones in question are a matter of taste or interpretation

Which, regardless of whether you agree with it or not, is what my attitude is.

How have I not answered your question?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:07 AM

Sorry, I should have added it may or may not correspond with what your analysis is but it is still my attitude towards what takes place at a folk club. Which is precisely what you asked.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

Just noticed this

unless contemporary songs sound as if they derive from traditional forms they have no lace in folk clubs

and I agree entirely. The question is, who decides if they sound like they derive from traditional forms or not? What sounds like a folk song to me may not sound like one to you. Which is why it is a matter of taste and interpretation.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM

ten quid for a concertina!

sounds like there could be 'a modest profit' -as they say on Bargain Hunt.

fifty quid would be a month of my Dad's wages in the 1960's. round about that time - i got my first guitar a Rosetti, costing 4 pounds 19/11d.

I couldn't afford a good guitar til I was working ten years later from Kays catalogue.

What learners do is their own business. What folks taking it seriously do is give it their best shot.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 11:19 AM

"The question is, who decides if they sound like they derive from traditional forms or not?"
Pretty obviously they are those that use the tunes and tune structures and those that are word based and narrative - those that sound like they might be folk songs because that's how they have been deliberately constructed
There really has never been a problem with this before now - Eric Bogle, Miles Wooton, MacColl, Seeger, Leon Rossleson, Woodie Guthrie, Jack Warshaw... and all the many others who made songs using this method knew what folk song was and were happy to use that understanding
I've asked you before - where does Ed Sheeran and The Kinks fir into all this ?
Can you think of any comparable folk songs that fit into what they did/do?
None of this has anything to do with 'analysis' which is an intellectual exercise - it is about how songs sound and communicate themselves - their function
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 12:55 PM

I must have missed Woody Guthrie when he showed up at a UK Folk Club. I know he was in England in 1945 and broadcast on BBC radio but even the Ballads and Blues Association wasn't around then.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM

No, Jim. You are still sidestepping the issue. You asked a question about my attitude and I answered it. I asked you why you you think "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity" and you have completely ignored that and changed the subject so, come on, fair is fair. I have answered a number of your questions. How about answering one of mine for a change?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 01:16 PM

those that sound like they might be folk songs

Those that sound like they might be folk songs to whom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM

"Those that sound like they might be folk songs to whom?"
To those who know what folksongs sound like maybe
I've already laid out what I believe makes folk songs unique - if you don't agree with my definition go steep yourself in the BBC recordings, or the 10 album Folk songs of Britain or The Song Carriers - or read your way through Penguin Book of English Folk song......
Work your wat=y through the Topic Catalogue...
Are you being serious Dave ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:18 PM

"I must have missed Woody Guthrie when he showed up at a UK Folk Club. "
I was referring to singer/songwriters who used the tradition to inform their work
I say Ramblin' Jack Elliot at The Bluecoat Chambers in Liverpool on a tour to raise funds for Woodie's medical costs, but that's beside the point
"what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity" "
Yes I have Dave (still answering without being reciprocated
The attitude here is really 'anything goes at a folk club" - Music Hall, Victorian tear jerkers early 20th century pop songs masturbating-into-your-guitar, singer/songwriter stuff, The Cricits, your Galway Girl and others from the same source - The Kinks.... and more
How can anything as divers and unrelated to folk song as thatclaim to have an identity of its own, let alone a cover-all definition ?
And above all, how can that possibly fall under the same heading as folk song proper
Your turn now
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:19 PM

To those who know what folksongs sound like maybe

Ahhhh, so now we have it. Folk songs are defined by "those who know what folksongs sound like". Surely, folk song should be defined by all folk, not just by those who study it. Correct me if I'm wrong but what you seem to be saying is that you are qualified to say what a folk song is but I am not. If I, or millions of others, hear a song and think "that sounds like folk music", but you disagree then we are wrong.

Don't misunderstand me. I am not saying you are wrong either. Just that you need to take on board the very valid views of other people. What you define as "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" is certainly right. But so is what other people define as the same.

And we still don't know why you think "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity". Still evading that issue!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:33 PM

Ah, sorry Jim. We cross posted. You have now changed "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity" to "The attitude here is really 'anything goes at a folk club". Nothing to do with what people sing at all then. Little wonder that we are at cross purposes half the time when you say one thing but mean another!

You also seem to be confusing me with someone else again as well. I have said, quite categorically that folk clubs should showcase traditional folk music and "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Never that anything goes. As we have just discussed though your definition of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" is different to mine and different to a number of others on here. You insist that you know what folk songs sound like but others don't. I also insist that I know what folk songs sound like but I am not going to dismiss someone else's view just because it is not the same as mine.

I am not going to fall out with you but I do admit to being disappointed that you are so inflexible.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 03:57 AM

""those who know what folksongs sound like"."
A partial quote Dave - not worthy of you
I included a list of where folk songs could be found - aurally and in print - I could have extended that a hundredfold
There is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like - it's been fully documented and made available - some of us spent most of our lives listening to and singing them
The mish-mash that passes for folk at a folk club can have no identity becase those who advocate for it can't agree on what it is, nor can they define it
The nearest anybody ever came to defining "modern folk" is "anything sung at a folk club" - bloody nonsense !
We will fall out if you continue to call me "inflexible" - what am I supposed to be flexible about ?
I've told you what I believe folk song to be and why - you offer nothing tangible in return
I've explained how I believe a scene that adopts an identity - in this case 'folk' needs to be homogeneous in some way and to deal with related material - in the case of song, aurally and poetically - again, you offer nothing tangible in return
I've explained at length how I believe the driving out of traditional songs from the scene have damaged their future (a coupple of good examples her have been "inappropriate long ballads" and, more recently, ballads being "tolerated" - patronising to say the least
None of you have ever commented on that damage
You aren't asking for flexibility, you are demanding total surrender to a hostile takeover a scene that was once based on 'The People's art' - their song, 'The Songs of the People' and that silly label Topic chooses to call them and Francis Child chose to entitle his ballads
No Pasaran, I'm afraid
Where are your arguments - more to the point, where is your consistency between you all ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM

Traditional songs were songs of their time

Contemporary songs are songs of the current time

Those that survive the passage of time will become traditional folk songs

Social history yes but songs with tunes which have the unknown quality to make them memorable ~ that say something about us as human beings within the context of being who we are!

Place for performance is limited, so to some extent are songs deemed to be traditional folk songs ~ and some are of course discarded or unpopular so fall out of use ~ rightly or wrongly maybe

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM

I can only answer for myself, Jim. Why do you keep putting the load of everyone else's comments on me. Maybe I am too flexible :-)

There is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like

Good! I am glad you say that. I know what a folk song sounds like and I have spent many years listening to and researching them as well. But when I say that a contemporary song sounds like a folk song to me, you deride that claim. One thing I noticed about your list of writers of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" (Eric Bogle, Miles Wooton, MacColl, Seeger, Leon Rossleson, Woodie Guthrie, Jack Warshaw) is hat none of them were born after 1950. In fact, a lot of them are already dead. There are writers and performers of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" born well after then. In fact, some born in the last 30 years and probably later.

There are writers and performers of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" who also write and perform pop songs. The two things are not mutually exclusive. I mentioned Ed Sheeran not because I am a fan of him but because he is in that category. Writing and performing popular songs does not stop him from writing and performing anything else you know!

As I said, I know what a folk song should sound like and there are some performers under the age of 70 who can write and perform "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions".

Can we drop the log-winded term "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" and just use contemporary folk song yet BTW?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:10 AM

"I can only answer for myself, Jim. Why do you keep putting the load of everyone else's comments on me"
If I wanted to talk to just you Dave I would PM you - this is a general discussion and you ahve taken sides
I fuully accept that the veiws expressed here are as about as conistent as the what happens at folk clubs bu I really don't have the time to address each individual poster - as much as I post, it's a tiny part of the work I am invoved in at present (on folksong)
Are you seriously suggesting that those born after 1950 are writing songs using folk forms and functions in any significant number - who are they and what are they writing - does Ed Sheeran count among those (and you call me inflexible!!)
Can you tell me what your view of "folk forms and functions" is and give examples ?
"and just use contemporary folk song "
Not until you give us a picture of a united view of contemporary folk song and relate it to folk song proper
One minute you're saying you are just speaking for yourself, now you are suggesting that contemporary folkies are a United Front - you need to make up your mind
(will have to leave this shortly - a day in Ennis)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:33 AM

It would be hard to think of a songwriter more embedded in, and cognizant of, tradition than Woody Guthrie.

Many if not all of his songs are traditional melodies, frequently referencing the earlier work by choice of the subject matter.

Its a tradition more easily understood by English people, than the celtic one, as American artists have been popular in this country since the 1880's influx of American artists into our music hall venues.

Guthrie often wrote that if one of his own records were played on manistream radio, 'a soda jerk would think the radio was broken'.

he knew he was writing for people who understood the tradition. Which seems to be a fewer and fewer number as the middle-class traddy conformity clique keep shrinking the audience to prove their superior knowledge. BBC4 seems incapable of making a programme about traditional music that doesn't confront and dismiss popular culture.

The tradition will survive, because by definition thats what a tradition is. It come from the Latin 'traditio' = I hand over. The tradition is literally what we hand over. If all we hand over is a vision of people who hold themselves as superior to common humanity - god help us.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

Are you seriously suggesting that those born after 1950 are writing songs using folk forms and functions in any significant number - who are they and what are they writing

Yes. Examples. Karine Polwart, All on a summers evening; Seth Lakeman, The White Hare; Kitty Macfarlane, Time and Tide. Many, many more where those came from.

does Ed Sheeran count among those

Some of his songs, yes! I refer you to his self penned 'Nancy Mulligan'. I would have no issue with him performing that at any folk club I attended.

Can you tell me what your view of "folk forms and functions" is and give examples ? As to what it is, I think Dick Miles summed it up technically. For all Dick's other issues he is a musician I trust to know what he is talking about.

there seems to be musically a melodic folk style that defines that which is normally accepted as folk style in the uk.
on analysis this involves the use of the dorian and mixolydian scale as well as the major scale not many other scales are used, one exception being one song of dave goulders that use the locrian scale, melodically they generally appear to stick wthin certain melodic boundaries , unlike jazz they do not generally involve improvisation.
as a general rule most songwriters writing in this uk contemp folkstyle, avoid twelve bar blues, occasionally there are exceptions.often musically they avoid diminshed chords.

As for examples, I just gave you some. I am sure you will dispute the ones I list but they are not only my view of "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions" (Yes, I will keep that cumbersome term just for you :-) ) but the view of millions of others. I don't always go with the crowd as you know but on this score, I think they are right. After all, There is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like...

Enjoy your day in Ennis.

I am at Morris practice tonight and going to see Captain Marvel followed by a curry tomorrow so I know not when we shall speak again.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:03 AM

KARINE POLWART - YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING
Esd Sheeran - we reallyy do have no commong gound - this is a waste of time
MY KIND OF FOLK
USING FOLK TO MAKE NEW SONGS
OR THIS
NEARLY THIS
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:10 AM

Your/Dick's description is beyond my comprehension - I don't read music an didn't the vast majority of our folk singers
As I understand it, Sharp went far further into musical analysis
Out folk songs are word based and narratively formed (once again) the tunes provide a form for the poetry and are unimportant in themselves (in England anyway) as they are transient and constantly replaceable.

By the way
WHAT ON EARTH HAS THIS TO DO WITH FOLKSONG !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:27 AM

Absolutely no surprise that you dispute the examples I have posted as "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions", Jim. I reckon that is the only bone of contention we have. You say they are not. I, and millions of others, say they are. What makes your opinion any better that mine then? After all, you said yourself that there is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like.

I have told you why I think they are "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Because, to me and millions of others, they sound like them. You say that they are not, presumably because, to you, they do not sound like them. What you are saying is that your ear is better at discerning folk songs than mine. That's fine. I can live with that without actually believing it. But you must understand that this is only your opinion and not a fact.

FWIW I don't think your last link is a folk song either but I did not refer to it. You did.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM

There's an old story you've probably heard.

when i was a kid I wanted to play guitar, like Cliff and the Shads. But my Dad, who knew everything, so I thought.
Said, La! Real guitarists play with their fingers not a plectrum!
Nine year old Al said, who plays like that?
A bloke in Spain called Segovia.... and this black chap. he's american...called Josh White.
So eventually Josh appeared on English TV and my journey started.

When Josh was seven years old, he saw a blind man trying to cross the road. He helped him across. that man was Blind Lemon Jefferson and he asked the kids name.
I know a song about Joshua, said BLF, and played him Joshua fit the Battle of Jericho.
Its a song I'm now teaching to my little 7 year old uke strumming grand nephew, Joshua.
That in my book is tradition.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM

>>>>>>>Are you seriously suggesting that those born after 1950 are writing songs using folk forms and functions in any significant number - who are they and what are they writing<<<<<<< In short YES!!!!

Just in my immediate little backwater.
I can give you 20 names right off the top of my head, many more if I move out a few miles. I'll name them if you wish and give a sample of the type of stuff they're writing and what/who their inspirations are.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 11:20 AM

"Just in my immediate little backwater."
Hope they're better than the ones Dave offered up (or the ones on the EFDSS website)
Hardly the point when what's being argued for has nothing to do with folk and, when you take Ed Sheeran and The Kinks into consideration, doesn't even claim to
Al
You are talking about American and Spanish traditions feeding into each other - fine by me - I was turned on t American music by seeing Sonny Terry in Liverpool
I would never kid myself I could sing blues as well as a black American - let those who can, do, as far as I'm concerned
Much more comfortable with my own English language traditions

Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 11:43 AM

Karine - possibly a better example.
https://youtu.be/Hz6lZTmJ7fk

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM

Hope they're better than the ones Dave offered up (or the ones on the EFDSS website)

There we have it again. Totally subjective judgement based on taste and interpretation. If you think your choices are better than mine and those of EFDSS that is absolutely fine by me. But it is not fact, it is your opinion.

I would guess that Steve's 20 are technically as good as any. I know a good few exceptionally talented locals myself but stuck to famous names so as not to be accused of comparing obscure acts with your more famous list. The point is, they are all individuals. Some I like, some not so much. But to my ears and to those of millions of others, they are writing and performing "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Other than just dismissing the songs I listed out of hand, you have said nothing to convince me otherwise.

Are you back from Ennis early then? Not going to Morris practise till 8 myself.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 12:52 PM

"There we have it again. Totally subjective judgement based on taste and interpretation. "
Nothing to do with taste and interpretation Dave (I'm beginning to find the constant repetition with this, along with inflexibility more than a little offensive)
What you put up sounded nothing like any folk song I have ever heard - the personal taste seems solely in your court
Try comparing them to any traditional singer you choose - I'd be interested if you put them up as links so we can discuss it instead of alluding to it
Seth Lakeman - Harry Cox - you really are serious, aren't you ?
Nor is it a matter of "better" - they are as different as anything you could possibly imagine
WILL YOU PLEASE STOP MAKING THIS ABOUT PERSONAL TASTE AND TELL ME HOW YOUR CHOICE FIRS IN WITH YOUR ACKNOWLEGED DEFINITION OFG FOLK SONG
By the way - not sure about the choice of someone who thinks'My Little Shirt my Mother made for me' is suitable for a folk club and that one of Ireland's most respected songs 'MacDonald of Glencoe' from one of Ireland's most respected source singers,is "a bloody terrible song" - now that's down to personal taste
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 01:44 PM

Jim, please can remind me again how you know something to be a folk song when you hear it?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 02:10 PM

"Jim, please can remind me again how you know something to be a folk song when you hear it?"
By where they come from and how they've been acquired - how else ?
There ate too many examples to be in any doubt
You know when a newly written one sound like a folk song by comparing them with the real thing
I fail to see the point of your question, I'm afraid
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 02:29 PM

Jim,

Are you seriously telling us that you do know the origin of every song which you describe as folk and how it was acquired?

I find that hard to believe unless you have a very limited collection.

I seem to remember you stating somewhere something like that we don't know the origins of many folk songs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 03:05 PM

"Are you seriously telling us that you do know the origin of every song which you describe as folk and how it was acquired?"
Have I said that ?
Must have lost the thread for a minute
There is a large set repertoire that have long become regarded as folk because of the process there underwent - well documented and established as what they are and represent
We don't the origins of any folk songs for certain, we can onluy use what we do know and can work or to make an educated guess
We know what folk songs sound like and what form they take (in general)
If it's old, it sounds like a folk song and can't be attributed to a specific maker, it's probably a folk songs
If anybody tells you they know who made our folk songs or attempts to apply statistics based on how many have appeared in print they're telling porkies
The motifs in many of our older songs go back as far as Homer and Chi=ucer and we do know for certain that songs weer being sung from memory as far back as The Venerable Bede (672/3 to 26 May 735)
The song 'The Frog and the Mouse' was attributed to shepherds in 1549 - it was still doing the rounds in the latter half of the 20th century
That has to stand for something
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:04 PM

So it's down to educated guesswork.

Thankyou

Regarding Homer and Chi=ucer, I prefer the work of Homer and Jethro, much more humour.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:12 PM

21st. i still sing the Frog and the Mouse.

then I segue into The Frog on the Tyne.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:39 PM

In one of the other threads that are currently on foot, I indicated what sort of contemporary songs I would consider acceptable within the folk idiom. It is easy enough to find songs in the repertoires of contemporary 'folk' singer/songwriters that would be out of place in a folk club. However, there are many that would compare favourably with the offerings of Bogle, MacColl etc mentioned by Jim. To give a few examples, I would be more than happy to hear any of the following performed alongside traditional songs in a folk club.

Minstrel show

Burn away

The last bird to sing

Ankle tattoo

Shores of America

Take a chance

Me n Becky

Argonne wood

Jim might not want to hear any of those in a folk club but, if that is the case, in my opinion that would be his loss.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 02:58 AM

"but, if that is the case, in my opinion that would be his loss."
Now that is a matter of choice, but whty shoupld it be "my loss" if the singing does nothing for me?
Reducing this to like and dislike is totally meaningless - somebody might have made exactly the same remark about Rod Stewart or Shirley Bassey
I might have said exactly the same about the singing of Paddy Tunney, or Mary Delaney or Sheila Stewart
Totally meaningless
The clips themselves, as far as I can see, owe little to folk song for their creation, they are what they are (whatever that is) and it's unimportant who likes them as far this discussion is concerned - nothing whatever to do with whether they are suitable for the title 'folk song' (contemporary or otherwise)
Most of them I found difficult to listen to because I couldn't here what was being said/sung - over-accompanied, badly balanced and, in one case, orchestrated
No way to pass on information, feelingsd or stories, which is what folk song is about
I assume Argonne Wood is American, their accent appears to be
"Than kyou"
For what - were you ever in doubt?
"I prefer the work of Homer and Jethro,"
I'm sure you do - but thanks for making clear where you stand on folk song, much more humour.
It's about time others were as honest so we know where we stand
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:35 AM

Er, Sorry Jim, I thought we were talking about folk song (or contemporary songs using folk forms and functions) not folk singers. Why on earth would anyone want to compare Seth Lakeman to Harry Cox? They are both capable of singing The Foggy Dew just as they are both capable of singing The White Hare. Well, they would be if Harry was still with us. And if Rod Stewart turned up at our folk club singing The Wild Mountain Time unaccompanied at our folk club or Shirley Bassey singing Men of Harlech they would not be out of place. They both have fine voices capable of singing folk songs.

The one and only argument we have is whether a certain songs within a sub genre of folk music (contemporary songs using folk forms and functions) has a place in folk clubs. You say that you know a folk song when you hear it. Well, funnily enough, so do I. So does Stewie. So does Steve. So do millions of others. After all, "There is nothing specialised about knowing what a folk song is or sounds like".

So, if it is not subjective, tell us why the examples of contemporary songs using folk forms and functions that both Stewie and I put up would not be welcome performed acoustically at your folk club. Other than you do not like them of course.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:40 AM

Morris practice was good BTW but for one of the dances I play "Early one morning". I suspect that is far from being a traditional dance tune and the dance itself is quite recent. Should I refer to it as contemporary dance using Morris forms and functions? :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM

Dave, re early one morning,you could say it is evolving tradition.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:20 AM

"Why on earth would anyone want to compare Seth Lakeman to Harry Cox? "
Wh should anyone put Seth Lakeman's name up on a discussion on what should happen in folk clubs ?
Nothing to do with what they are "capable of doing" - I'm sure Kiri Ti Kanwa could makw a fist of Foggy Dew, but would you book her for a folk club (I'm beginning to thing you might)
It's not what they can singg, it's how they sing it surely ?
THis gets beyond a joke - I really do see little point in continuing Dave - many thanks for describing how you see folk clubs - confirms all my worst fears
I'm realy not goiung to "tell yuo any more" until you address the points I have made
If you don't understand that folk song has an individual identity which distinguishes it from all other forms, in style, sound, in narrative, in function and certainly in importance then we're just on different planets
Not one of you have3 had the decency to address the damage I to a people's culture that I believe you are doing to folk song - instead we got "tolerated" and "inappropriate" ballads and 'ya gotta move on with the times'
Sad, sad, sad, and very disheartening
I think "Sirley Baswey" and "Rod Stewart" has just about done it for me - as far from fok song as it has been known for centuries as you could possibly get
Enjoy your world Dave - I'm glad I never accepted your invitation - would probably end up throwing myself of Malham Cove
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:48 AM

You spectacularly miss the point once again, Jim. It has nothing to do with the singers and everything to do with the songs. The songs can live forever, the singers cannot. I put it to you that our only bone of contention is a number of contemporary songs, not singers, that many of us consider to have folk forms and functions and you do not. Folk clubs are not going to book big names from the pop world anyway but any singer at that club can sing their songs if they consider them to have folk forms and functions.

The argument we are having is whether the songs that Stewie and I proposed do have folk forms and functions. We believe they do. You do not. Simple as that. It is subjective and every time that is pointed out you try to divert the subject or simply deride our choices as nonsense. You do not explain why you think they do not have folk forms and functions and accuse every man and his dog of destroying folk clubs. Diversionary tactics at their worst.

Sorry that you feel that the folk clubs I visit would make you want to kill yourself. I'm afraid that I cannot turn the clock back and make sure that the only contemporary music performed is that written by people born before 1950 or already dead. In fact, I wouldn't want to. I like to hear new songs with folk forms and functions sometimes.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:31 AM

Dunno about a booking, but I'd definitely let Kiri do a floorspot - sell the raffle tickets too, if she wanted.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM

As captain Manwaring said, i think we're getting into the realms of fantasy now...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:42 AM

" It has nothing to do with the singers and everything to do with the songs. "
Not so
It has to do with the way the songs are sung and how they fit into the description 'folk'
"that our only bone of contention is a number of contemporary songs, "
Tal about spectacularly missing the point
Quite frankly, I wouldnt care how many contemporary songs were sun if they represented a repertoire which was an extension of the tradition
The people I know/knew respected and liked traditional song would be happy to go on singing it, but I would be over the moon if I thought the that tradition had given rise to the creation of a significant number of songs which used the tradition as a template - the stuff put up here are far nearer to the modern disposable genre than anything like folk styles - non-narrative, introspected, over-accompanied.... everything that makes for the short lived output of the music industry
Why do you continue repeating nonsense - I have never suggested that people born after 1950 can't make traditional songs - I am saying they are not - not by those you've put up
By describing a folk scene with only 180 clubs as "health" you are deluding yourself
The link you gave for that claim largely features paid and successful performers - some superstars,a as being indicative of an upsurge in the folk scene
When I first came to the scene I was an apprentice electrician workign on the Liverpool docks - my fellow enthusiasts were warehousemen working in 'Paddy's Market', bus drivers, building workers, shopworkers..... ordinary lads and girls who, without the clubs, would have been confined to listening to thee pap poured out daily on the radio or the occasional Concerts - Cliff Richard and the Shadows, The Crickets, Billy Fury.... saw them all at the Liverpool Empire
The clubs gave us the chance to go out at night and make our own music and song
Now you put up booked stars who made it on the scene enough to get paid - or those who win prizes on the media controlled 'Folkie of tee Year competitions - as "success"
If they's lucky and can afford it, ther are the annual somewhat impersonal festivals where, if you are lucky, you might get the odd song in an overcrowded pub session - the festivals are another sign of the folkie success story
As far as I'm concerned, not only has the music been sold up the Swanee, but so has the very reason it was made in the first place, or ordinary people like me and my friends to communicate with each other artistically and become singers and songmakers in our own right
Missing the point me - not in a million years Dave
Youu and yors have spent a deal of time here avoiding the point - and your responsibility for bringing pout the dying mess that the folk scene has become
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:21 AM

Diversion, diversion, diversion. Focus, Jim. Let's take one song only. The extreme one, Nancy Mulligan written by Ed Sheeran. Forget him singing it. Forget the studio production of it. Pick any singer you like, give them the words and music, let them sing it at a folk club and then tell me it is not a "contemporary song using folk forms and functions" and why. Because, to me, it has all the folk forms and functions you could ask for.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM

Sorry Dave,
Can't be arsed any more until you start responding to what I say and referring to it as a diversion - which they are most certainly not
"let them sing it at a folk club and then tell me it is not a "contemporary song using folk forms and functions"
Delighted to Dave - they are most certainly not "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions"
Explain to me how, apart from being song in folk clubs (where they wouldn't have been given time of day not so long ago) they can possibly claim to be related to folk in any way
Start responding and stop dodging the issue or this is finished an I'll wait to see somebody else is prepared to deal with this honestly Jim,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:02 AM

One song, Jim. Nancy Mulligan. Full of folk forms and functions. The songs I am referring to all are, which is my answer as to why they are related to folk and that is my honest answer. You are the only one that is saying they are not. Little wonder that you say you are finished if you cannot or will not explain why.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:09 AM

Give us a blue clickie to nancy mulligan, and who knows and let the rest of know what you're talking about. This perchance


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlZXlfda6Y

I was twenty-four years old
When I met the woman I would call my own
Twenty-two grand kids now growing old
In that house that your brother bought ya
On the summer day when I proposed
I made that wedding ring from dentist gold
And I asked her father, but her daddy said, "No
You can't marry my daughter"

[Chorus]
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border

[Verse 2]
Well, I met her at Guy's in the second World War
And she was working on a soldier's ward
Never had I seen such beauty before
The moment that I saw her
Nancy was my yellow rose
And we got married wearing borrowed clothes
We got eight children, now growing old
Five sons and three daughters

[Chorus]
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border

[Verse 3]
From her snow white streak in her jet black hair
Over sixty years I've been loving her
Now we're sat by the fire in our old armchairs
You know Nancy, I adore ya
From a farm boy born near Belfast town
I never worried about the king and crown
'Cause I found my heart upon the southern ground
There's no difference, I assure ya

[Chorus]
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM

That's the one, Al. I did provide a link to it much earlier but thanks for doing it again. Does it sound like it has folk forms and functions to you? IE, strip away the studio production, would it be at home in a folk club?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:48 AM

Sounds like a client=avast&ei=BqWDXNHpLqeX1fAP3reX4A8&q=nancy+mulligan+youtube&oq=Nancy+Mulligan+Utube+&gs_l=psy">PSEUDO=AMERICAN POP song to me Dave
Cnyou compare it to any real folk song - doggeral to boot
It doesn't even sound like an Anmerican folk song
As I said - different planet
Is that really all you've got ?
And still you refuse yto respond to anything else
Bit off a waste of both our times
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 08:05 AM

Interesting. Its more Big Tom and Johnnie McEvoy than sean nos, and   Jim's style.

In a way its a problem the folkscene has brought on itself. Its all very well criticising Jim, but hundreds of times, I've heard folkies say - I HATE COUNTRY MUSIC.

And yet this song, along with Show of Hands Galway farmer would fit vet very comfortably into the repertoire of Big Tom, or Johnny - or even Daniel O'Donnell. Its a bit like Pretty Little Girl from Omagh that Daniel starts his shows with. Which I always think is a bit like Oh Lonesome Me!

I don'tknow why we can't all just get along. It wouldn't bother me hearing it in a folk club. Or much else come to that, as long as it was done competently. Thats the bugbear!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 08:28 AM

canyou compare it to any real folk song

Yes thanks. I can hear the influences many folk songs in the melodic structure. Of any number of polkas in the timing. Of forbidden love winning through in the lyrics. Millions of people would agree. I am equally amazed that you can not see it.

You are right though. Aside from a vote on who thinks the songs that Stewie and I proposed have the necessary form and function there is no way to resolve this. Even then you would not accept the results if the vote were not in your favour.

Let it lie. You carry on mourning the loss of folk clubs and we will continue to enjoy being fooled by good music posing as folk in the folk clubs that no longer exist. :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM

Jim, i have given my honest opinion. I have no intention of getting into the fruitless
diatribes to which you have subjected Dave. I know a folk song when I hear it. I have collected recorded folk and roots music for 55 years. As for 'folk idiom' contemporary
songs I agree totally with Dave. You are prepared to accept songs from Bogle, MacColl,Rosselson etc but rubbish others. Your reaction to my clips is total bullshit.
If you couldn't hear most of 'what was being said/sung, you need to have your
ears syringed. The only one that might have presented some difficulty would be the
Stick in the Wheel clip. Maybe I was mistaken that the thread drift was about songs not
performances. 'Shores of America' was orchestrated but could well be presented with minimal accompaniment. Indeed, Argonne Wood is by an American - Mike Craver of the first-rate old-timey group, the Red Clay Ramblers. So what? You asked for examples of what might be acceptable in folk clubs. What about Roy Bailey? He is a master of finding
wonderful songs from songwriters around the globe. Because these are 'folk idiom' songs in his opinion, would he be unwelcome in your folk clubs? That's my lot.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 09:00 AM

Thanks Stewie. Nice to know I am not a lone voice crying in the wilderness. I thought we were talking about songs too. I suspect Roy Bailey will be OK as he was born before 1950. ;-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM

Dave, I didn't see your latest post. Your last 2 sentences sum it up perfectly. Let it lie.
We can go on enjoying great music.

--Stewie.,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 09:07 AM

"fruitless diatribes to which you have subjected Dave."
Dave has chosen to be part of this - that you describe my postings as "diatribes" makes your participation in the discussion pretty pointless I am prepared to accept those you mention because they cohose to use the tradition to make their songs - their compositions fitted into the evenings for decades without complaint because ther sources of inspiration were recognised for what they were
I can't see any point in your throwing mnames and have myu bat them back at you - if you know what genuine folk song sounds like you should be able to judge for yourself
Nothing that has been put up so far vaguely rembles folk style or utterance
Once again   
CAN ANYONE MATCH THIS WITH A FOLK SONG OR STYLE
More and more bizarre
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 09:09 AM

And still no response to the damage that has been done to the real thing
Shame
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 10:34 AM

Nothing that has been put up so far vaguely rembles folk style or utterance

IN YOUR OPINION.

no response to the damage that has been done to the real thing

Because the songs we have put up have done no damage. They have in fact done the reverse. If we stick purely to traditional songs or contemporary songs with etc. etc. only written by people born before 1950 we will encase the whole thing in Amber never to change again. Introducing new material assists growth and encourages younger people to find out about the tradition for themselves.

Let's have one more try to tempt you to the dark side with
This set of young upstarts or This pair of reprobates

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 10:52 AM

Anyroads, I have a date with Captain Marvel and curry in Keighley. No folk songs will be harmed...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 11:01 AM

"IN YOUR OPINION."
youmade the claims - it is down to you to to explain your chioices and produce comparisons
I have to say that I find your putting this down to "my opinion" and refusal to produce these comparisons or resspond to most of what I have put up downright insulting Dave
I have insuklted bno-one here , and I have had a degree or personal insulting from some people aimed at me
I expected more from you
Sadly, I think we're finished here - don't you ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM

Well you explain to us the qualitative difference between the Brennan on the Moor, and Jesse James, and this bloke blethering on about his family.

It all sounds the same to me. If there is a difference, you need a bloody good ear to spot it.

In all cases its a bloke telling a story, three or four chords - no benjamin Britten stuff here. In all the cases - you could sing it in a pub. Although the bloke in Ed's song didn't rob any banks, or anything much except have kids. And there isn't a chorus for the gang to join in on. Although - he could write one later.

If he or dave wants to call it a folk song - why not? It certainly sounds a bit like some things you would call folk songs. Lets let Ed into the tent. If he pisses in your ear, its Dave's fault.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 12:22 PM

Sorry Al
Duidn't understand any of that
ritish folk songs are basically unnacompained so chords don't come into it for a start
You can sing anything in a pub - are you suggesting that anything you can is a folksong ?
"If he or dave wants to call it a folk song - why not?
Dave can call whatever he wants a fok song - he has left me with the impression he does, which is why we have no grounds to communicate with each other on a treead which claims =t be about "Traditional Music and Folklore Collection and Community"
We give things names so wr can find them when we want them - otherwise we may as well call them "things" or "songs" or "whatsits"
AS I said, I didn't understand a word of that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:02 PM

A quick question before Casualty
"Inflexible" - "closed minded"
Can anyone here put their hand up and honestly say they have conceded a single point here, or can anyone point to anybody who has ?
A rhetorical question, of course
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:08 PM

I agree i didn't phrase that very well.

i was thinking of my own moderate abilities.
Some of the stuff that Ewan did. I'm not denying its status as folksong. Like Tam Linn. But I've heard Ewan say - if you don't think ballads are your thing, and you can't listen for nearly fifteen minutes - perhaps it would be best if you left the room, before I start.

I wouldn't know how to do that.

But these songs I could make an audience listen. I could present it with something interesting to introduce them. An ordinary English speaking audience with a normal degree of intelligence. be it in a pub, a family gathering - whatever...
Frankly I don't know if its folk song. But they are songs that are within the apprehension of an English speaking audience. the commonality of them. Not a specialist audience. And therefore songs that can make them feel something. And that's what works for me.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:33 PM

"But these songs I could make an audience listen."
They also managed to drive thousands of long term folkies who came to look for folk songs away
"But I've heard Ewan say - if you don't think ballads are your thing, and you can't listen for nearly fifteen minutes - perhaps it would be best if you left the room, before I start.
"
Don't think you heard it very often Al - Ewan made about thirty odd albums of ballads - people came to The Singers Club from as far afield as the U.S. (in parties sometimes) to hear him sing them
He used to tell of how, wen he first started to sing ballads in public, he used to break one particularly long one (Gil Morrice) in two halves, one half before the interval, one at the beginning of the second half
He stopped when an audience member said to hem, "For ****'* sake will you stop doing that, it's like waiting for the other ***** shoe to drop"
Audiences will take what you give them if you do it well enough - it shows contempt for them if you believe they can't
The Singers Club was set up i the early sixties and continued to pull in audiences for traditional ballads, among other things, till Ewan fell into his last illness and couldn't perform any more
You don't abandon something because it's not widely popular otherwise you may as well pack it in and put in a juke Box
You go with what you love and hope you can take enough people with you - if people hadn't done that we wouldn't have Shakespeare, Dickens, Hardy... or any of the 'difficult playwrights and writes
Bet you never got a full house of strangers for you Wesker Trilogy - we never did
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:21 PM

well, Dickens famously had people queuing up for the next instalment. And Shakespeare is a fairly safe 'bums on seats ' proposition for most theatres.

wesker -I've never seen in a theatre, but he must have been successful. He captured a mood of a certain point in history. Frustration with a long period of Tory government. post-war idealism and optimism. I read Wesker because my Mum was a Quaker, leftist, CND, etc. Stuck in a small rural community (Boston in Lincs), a cultural desert. I can see how she might have identified with Beattie Bryant.

contempt for the audience. that's an interesting subject Do you know Albert Goldman's very incisive Lenny Bruce biography.

It was my bible in the years when I was getting to grips with the tough club audiences in WMC's and the like. Lenny was an artist who believed there was a more aware and intelligent audience that he could reach out to. I always felt this. Ewan and Peggy represented something of this to me. but it has to be said, there were others. And it was this questing for a less bland reaction that inspired me - rather than any sort of particular brand of folk music.

Performance wise - I think. I didn't come to my audience with an agenda of what I believed. It was a voyage of discovery. discovery of what my strengths were. And weaknesses. And their strengths and weaknesses. Contempt - maybe comes into the equation. But respect as well.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:34 PM

Can anyone here put their hand up and honestly say they have conceded a single point here

Yes. I have. I no longer refer to contemporary folk songs. At your request they are now "contemporary songs using folk forms and functions". Now, what have you conceded and what do you think of my last two links?

Captain Marvel was marvellous and the curry was the same BTW:-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:10 PM

What you don't seem to get Dave is that those beliefs have been the motor that has driven his creative life.

Just like your and my beliefs motivate us.

Why are you seeking Jim's approval?

Don't concede anything. there's no need. He's not after getting elected (I don't think).

I'm sure he's happy for you to have your beliefs.

Who knows he might be right. there is no final reckoning, as far as anyone knows.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:17 PM

I have already conceded it, Al. And I am not so precious as to think my beliefs make any difference to anyone or anything. I am quite flattered to hear Jim say that my actions have destroyed folk music :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:57 PM

well to be honest, his actions have destroyed it for me. Who knows who's right.

Derek Brimstone said the trad singers were like a plague. Clubs that had been going for years , booked one after the glowing account of then Melody Maker, and the next time he heard the place had perished and closed down. Derek had no reason to say otherwise - he played nearly everywhere in his time.

Jim doesn't get what I'm on about. And I don't really understand what he's proposing.

That if we booked unaccompanied trad singers everywhere the folk clubs would have been full. Can't see it myself. There was only really Tommy dempsey, Ian Campbell and Roy Harris in our neck of the woods that could do a whole evening unaccompanied. The rest kind of accepted their limitations and hung out at The Crown in Digbeth or The Prince of Wales.   That was Brum in the hay day.

I stuck my neck out a few times booking unaccompanied singers . But the results weren't encouraging.

Dave, we're old men, Jim and I. We saw what saw. we know what we know.   you're asking a lot for us to change our opinions at this stage in the game.

And I feel quite sure you played no part in the end of the Folk club Boom. set your mind at rest.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 10:50 PM

Well said, Al. I too am reasonably old [76] and am not about to change my opinions. I too love unaccompanied singing - Eddie Butcher singing his lengthy version of Coleraine Regatta is an all-time favourite of mine, as are Margaret Barry's Galway Shawl or Jeannie Robertson's My Son John. It is a pity that this style has disappeared from clubs and festivals. However, as a record collector, I also enjoy exploring the wealth of traditional folk and folk idiom that is available from talented musicians and writers all around the English-speaking world. And with Spotify, Youtube etc we have not previously had access to such a vast reservoir of music.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 03:09 AM

"well, Dickens famously had people queuing up for the next instalment. "
Yes he di Al, but he no longer has a captive audience, go find me a dozen people in your local whu have read him today (unless they went to schools where hiss works were taught)
I have read steadily since I was old enough to appreciate books, but I had never read Hardy or Dickens until I met Walter Pardon - he intoduced both Pat and I to their works - and Mrs Gaskell)
Shakespeare is still regarded as being for 'them' - now that they've started filming The RSC plays, we sit in cinemas with no more than a dozen people in them (about two dozen for Cumberbatch's Hamlet last week - but the Irish have a thing about 'good' literature !)
The point i was making was if something is important it's worth arguing for - folk song was important enough not to have to when I came to it, thanks top what's happened to the clubs it no longer is to enough people
You, with your political leanings, should have some feeling of the importance of songs which reflect your forefather lives - field labourers, mill workers, people fighting top make a living from the land, working men who were ripped from their homes to fight in wars, couples whe were torn apart because one of them wasn't 'good enough' to marry the other....
That's what our songs are - lumps of our history set in verse and music.... tragedy and comedy and everything in between all set into song
My grandfather was a merchant seaman - he sang shanties (not enough and not complete enough to make him a traditional singer, but enough to make him a carrier of his history)
His immediate forebears fled the Great Famine - there are many hundreds of songs that recorded those events
May dad went to Spain and came back singing songs his fellow volunteers made - in English and in Spanish
He became a navvy - not many songs, (but plenty of stories, which I still tell) - the bundle of songs about navvies that MacColl made are now part of my repertoire because I can link them with my own upbringing
Whether you like them or not, these songs and the form they were made in are important enough to have lasted for many centuries and have become part of our social history - they are every bit as enjoyable as Shakespeare and Dickens, and far less hard work to understand
In some ways, because of the burden they carry, they are more important - they are our unwritten history

"Derek Brimstone said the trad singers were like a plague"
I knew there must have been something about Brimstone that made me think him superficial - don't care what he thought abouut something he obviously didn't understand
Don't you find it disturbing that artists can make such snidey remarks about large groups of their fellow performers - I do
I worked with MacColl for over twenty years and never heard his say that about other singers yet it is MacColl who has the reputation for nastiness and the likes of Brimstone who are admired
Funny old work eh ?

I'm not asking you to change your opinions Al - as you say, we're old men (I'm a damn sight older than you); I don't care what you think, but I do care that the songs and music I love survives to give those coming after us have teh same opportunity to enjoy it that I had
Twenty years ago I would have said that Irish traditional music had no future, now thousands of youngsters are playing it as well as I've ever heard it played - it now has at least a tweo generation future and what was saved of the old traditions in the form of recordings and manuscripts stand a fair chance of lasting forever

Song has some way to go but the leaves are beginning to appear
Three years ago you hardly heard a traditional ballad sung here; a couple of friends, Aileen Lambert and Mick Fortune, started a project called Man, Woman and Child, got the backking of the National Library of Ireland and took mini concerts of some of Ireland's best singers of traditional songs to various places around Ireland
People began to sing the Child Ballads
It takes a little work and a little thought and a lot of dedication
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 03:52 AM

Believe it or not, Jim, I would love to see more traditional unaccompanied singers at folk clubs. I was not lucky enough to see the heyday of the singers but one of my favourite artists was Ian Woods who had a vast repertoire of songs he could sing unaccompanied, including some he had written that were indistiguishable from the "real thing". Mind you, I also saw Fred Jordan at a couple of concerts and can't honestly say I enjoyed a lot of his stuff. I think that may have been the venues though and am sure he would have come across better in more intimate surroundings. Sadly, both of those have passed away, as have the ones you have mentioned.

Wind the clock back 70 years and there was not the availability of instruments there is now, nor was there the mass communication media. Entertainment was at home or in the pub. Lots of people learned and performed unaccompanied songs. There is neither the need or inclination to do that now. Sad but the introduction of affordable instruments and instant global communications have done more to reduce the number of folk singers than a couple of Beatles songs ever did.

In my opinion.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 03:58 AM

Stewie, my son davy is a fine song and Jeannies version was inspiring.
I had a conversation with Derek Brimstone which was similar only he said that he would never book a certain revival singer who sang tradtionl material, because his fans would only come to see that singer but would not come back to see other guests he had booked.
That was possibly because they wanted trad songs not folk comedians or singer songwriters, they would presumably be people like Jim and me, that is why[in my opinion] the strongest CLUBS had good residents and did not have to rely upon guests.
in my opinion that tells me more about the audiences at Dereks club they wanted either singer song writers or folk entertainers, A REFLECTION OF DEREK HIMSELF.
But a similr argument could be made about derek brimstone, if he was to be booked at a predominantly tradtional song club. a lot of his fans would not turn up the next week to see fred jordan, it was a facile and shallow comment.
Derek was a very clever entertainer and skilled peformer but he had an agenda

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 04:10 AM

to be fair ,tradtional singers clubs had an agenda too, when i first walked in to a club in 1966 most club had a much more inclusive policy. i was quite happy to see joanne kelly sing blues or willie scott sing trad material, and still am,but i am not keen on singer songwriters who sing song after song about their failed personal relationships, taste is subjective

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 04:16 AM

"Derek was a very clever entertainer and skilled peformer but he had an agenda"
Annybody who stands up on stage and says that traditional singers are "a plague" has an agenda Dick - nobody with principle attacks fellow performers publicly in that manner in my book, no matter how entertaining they are
"I would love to see more traditional unaccompanied singers at folk clubs."
Unless you are prepared to do something about it that's little more than lip service for anybody involved in the 'folk scene'
No idea what winding the clock back 70 years means unless you are suggesting that traditional songs and singing no longer have a place in the present folk scene - it worked for audiences fine into the eighties, until the locusts moved in - it's happening here in Ireland today with singers Like Frank Harte, Joe Heaney and Geordie Hanna being annually celebrated with annual weekend singing events named after them - that's long been happening with Musicians like Willie Clancy, Joe Cooley, et al
If you don't traditional songno longer has a place oyu need to say - all I can reply is 'I'm sorry for your loss'
JIm

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 04:27 AM

To be fair, Dick, there are the type of singer songwriters you describe but there are some brilliant ones too. The ones you mention are generally limited to floor spots at their "home" clubs while the best go on to achieve national or global fame. Jim has mentioned Eric Bogle and Leon Rosselson who can fill venues wherever they go. My own favourite is Anthony John Clarke and I have never seen empty seats at any of his gigs. When one of the ones you mention sings of his (yes, they are usually blokes) latest lost love, most people to go the bar :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 04:39 AM

No, I'm not prepared to do anything about it, Jim. I have had my share of head, heart and ear ache. I will leave the running of folk clubs to others. I would like to see more traditional singers but I am not passionate enough about that to do anything about it. I am not lamenting the passing, just saying it would be nice.

My point about 70 years ago, or maybe 60, is that the need and inclination for traditional singing was far higher. There is still some enthusiasm for it, as you so ably demonstrate, but it is not what it was before the advent of cheap Japanese guitars and mass media. I know there was more in the 80's too. I was there then. It does take a generation of two for the effects of major developments to be seen sometimes.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 04:59 AM

Dave , i was being very specific , i was not condemning singer songwriters in general, only certain particular kinds and at the same time explaining that is my subjective taste.
I run a festival, I have found when i booked Martin Carthy[ who sings trad material] and Andy Irvine i had full houseS.
I am not interested in your tastes or your opinions THERE ARE MANY PERFORMERS WHO ARE GOOD BUT WOULD NOT DRAW AUDENCES IN MY LOCATION. INCLUDING YOUR FAVOURITE SONG WRITER

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:17 AM

For those who might still be dropping in to this thread and do not read the Observer can I point out that there is an article in today's review section on what the majority of the general public appear to understand as Folk Song and singers.
Seemingly folk is on the rise again.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:01 AM

It is important to bear in mind (in my view) that folk concert guests are there to entertain the audience doing what they do best to fit the "sort" of entertainment they have become used to

I get regular invites to go to clubs ~ but my time is limited so I go where I can get a good sing ~ I am lucky to get 4 songs in a 3 hrs session ~ but I do get to join in tunes and choruses! normally

Rarely do I spend time and money paying to see "guests" ~ although I do go to see some guest I like!

I spent years MCeeing and always gave time to others who dropped in for a floor spot (btw)

No more invites unless I can do my bit please (sorry off topic)

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM

"Seemingly folk is on the rise again."
Given who the press puts forward as exmples, it most certainly is not
Since when has the media been a reliable guide to folk ?

" I have had my share of head, heart and ear ache. I"
None of this has ever been about you or me Dave - it's about the music and its importance
Your input here shows you that you are prepared to do something about it, unfortunately your choice is to add to the confusion
My favourite saying from the sixties has always been "If you're not part of the solution then you're a part of the problem
I found your earlier comments about instruments somewhat confusing
" Sad but the introduction of affordable instruments and instant global communications have done more to reduce the number of folk singers than a couple of Beatles songs ever did. "
Affordable instruments came with the revival and added to it greatly - they gave those who had no platform a chnce to learn and play in fromt of audiences and added greatly to what was a basically unaccompanied tradition - the guitar was the nearest I ever got to playing an instrument in public - I abandoned it when I found it difficult to sing and play competently
Not that all songs need or even, can benefit from instrumental accompaniment - they most certainly don't
My problem with instrumentation is when it is treated as an end in itself rather than aaccompaniment
I was very impressed with Martin Carthy's singing (and playing for a time) until it came to dominate everything he sang
He's a fine musician, but I found myself listening to what he was playing rather than what he was singing, so I stopped trying
He was the first this happened to for me, but the clubs became wannabe Martins (and I don't mean the superb guitars) - then came The Wannabe Wataerson wailers....
Peggy once said the wisest thing I have ever hreard about accompaniment - "it know it's working when the listener doesn't hear it, but misses it when it stops or goes wrong.
THere is nothing wrong with innovation as long as it doesn't get in the way f the main objective- to put over the objective of the song
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:54 AM

I am not interested in your tastes or your opinions

Nor I yours, Dick, nor I yours. As you say, all a matter of personal preference.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:02 AM

Sorry for the confusion,Jim. I should have said I believe the introduction of affordable instruments had an impact on unaccompanied folk song.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:07 AM

Guide Jim?

I mentioned it here purely in case somebody that might want to read it didn't know of it's existence.

I am assuming that you haven't.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:29 AM

I only ever saw Derek Brimstone once and that was during a week visiting folk clubs in Sussex in 1974. That was, my diary tells me, the Thursday. Most of the other nights were in Lewes and Brighton.
I saw Derek at the Coppersongs Club in Peacehaven. My diary entry for that evening, -
'D. Brimstone at the Coppersongs Club. Not impressed. Too much unfunny patter between forgettable singing. The Copper Family on the other hand were wonderful. Strangely enough, it was the Coppers that seemed to enjoy DB's performmance most and they were all over him when he finished.'

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:55 AM

Sorry - no Hoot, I haven't - can't get it here in the Wild west
My point remains that the Media have never been a reliable guide to what is and what isn't good folk (with the very occasional exception) and your last statement appears to contradct much of what people (not me) are saying here

" had an impact on unaccompanied folk song"
And I am agreeing with you Dave and saying that was an asset when they were used to accompany
i could have added that the music and amplification for the 'electric Folk' boom made the words of songs totally superfluous
On fact that has always fascinated me is that, while early twentieth century Ireland has a ready supply of fine instrumentalists, its singing traditions remained largely accompanied

Incidentally, the excellent Goilín Club in Dublin has just celebrated its fortieth year - totally unaccompanied singing to a high standard and a pleasure to visit
We've met Christie Moore there several times and on the occasions he has been booked for events, despite the residents inviting him to do so, he has refused to perform accompanied.
The other club worthy of mention is 'The Night Before Larry Was Stretched' in Smithfield's Cobblestones, Dublin- another largely unaccompanied excellent club, faily newly set up by young singers singing well
Very encouraging      
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:55 AM

Sandman, thanks for the correction. I don't know why I typed 'John' instead of 'David'. I possibly had the title of that other grisly tale at the back of my mind.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 10:26 AM

Well I Do care about what you think Jim. You're someone I have a great respect for.

Derek Brimstone was my mentor in the same way that Macoll was yours. i recorded two of his albums. Occcasionally did the PA for him, booked him, etc.

there was nothing superficial about him. He just didn't share your opinions about folk music.

He inspired dozens of musicians, and he was the proud inheritor of a thread of performers in English folk clubs - singers/sophisticated raconteurs.

he may not have said plague. But that was what he described. Folk Clubs which had booked him , Noel Murphy, Bernard Wrigley, Jeremy Taylor, traddies who talked to the audience like Swan Arcade, etc. - following articles in Melody Maker booked Carthy, or Bellamy. no explanations, a style totally out of the comprehension of a MOR audience. And by the second half the folk club was no more. Like a trapeze artist with diarrhoea was what he actually said.

You probably thought those folk clubs weren't worth keeping ... some of us did.

Like I say, i don't think we all need to think the same about folk music.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 10:31 AM

Saw the Observer article, Hoot. Excellent, promoting young folk singers all with a great respect for tradition. Large 4-pager. There you go again, Jim, dismissing something you haven't even seen. The media rarely have contact with folk music but this one is certainly to be encouraged. I am pretty certain even you would approve. I might post some of it later. It's too long to post all of it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 11:05 AM

"There you go again, Jim, dismissing something you haven't even seen"
I' dismissing something I know to be inaccurate because of what has been argued for here Steve
Some time ago Dave put up a Wiki page which swore that the folk scene was undergoing a boom with 186 clubs - here we have 'inappropriate" ballads being "tolerated and Ed Sheeran and The Kinks bing argued for as appropriate
Personally, I'd rather trust you guys than the Observer - you tell me exactly what I want to know every time

I saw Derek Brimstone on several occasions - as somebody above intimated, someone who had opted for the comedic side of performance
I didn't really want to make an issue of what I thought of him but I don't react well to the traddies as..... however you said whet he said
I never resnted the existence of any club when the revival was doing better than it is - if I didn't like what they did I didn't go a second time - end of story
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:27 PM

""There you go again, Jim, dismissing something you haven't even seen""
When have I dismissed something I haven't seen Steve - remind me
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM

yawn

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:45 PM

When have I dismissed something I haven't seen Steve - remind me.

>>>>>the Media have never been a reliable guide to what is and what isn't good folk<<<<<<

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:56 PM

"the Media have never been a reliable guide to what is and what isn't good fol"
Best you can come up with Steve
You are just repeating what you said last time when you suggeted I made a habit of it
"There you go again, Jim,"
Uncorroborated innuendo again tsk-tsk
You are not suggesting that the media is a source of information on reliable on things folk, are you ?
It would go a way to explaining some things if you were
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:58 PM

"yawn"
Long past your bed-time by the sound of things
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:59 PM

Jude Rogers--opening paragraph.

In 2019, British and Irish folk music is more exciting and urgent than it's been for years. Much of it sounds powerfully raw and immediate, with many groups recognising the politics of our times in their songs, and incorporating contemporary stories within more ancient musical motifs. here are bands confronting the legacies of abortion rights; the oppression of women, homosexuals and other minority communities; the loss of minority language; the refugee crisis; and stories of people who have stood up to hate. they're not doing so in browbeating, bluntly obvious ways either. Some are uncovering small but powerful stories of overlooked people, whose achievements we can learn from. Others are creating more oblique and moving work, highlighting the injustices that linger in our society.


Here are the featured artistes in brief

Grace Petrie: Leicester-based singer-songwriter and activist who found her calling after the 2010 general election.

Lankum: The Dublin four-piece who write about abortion rights and poverty, are known for their full-throttle live shows.

Lisa O'Neill: Irish musician tackling difficult subjects with other-worldly vocals.

The Young'uns: Teesside trio inspired by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger whose singalong music celebrates real heroes.

Sorry 5 pages, not 4 as I stated before.

Lankum and Young'uns are well-known on the British folk circuit, singing plenty of traditional material also.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 02:02 PM

I've got to admit, I've never been to one of those cinema RSC productions.

We used to go to Stratford so often that the parking attendant outside the theatre who kept our disabled parking slot knew us really well. He used to tell us if we were in for a good show. (He'd never actually been inside the theatre to see a play, but he'd heard what everyone said coming out,)

Nowadays, Denise too ill with rheumatoid to sit through a performance.

Yesterday I was in Bridport and going past a market stall. There was a dvd of Richard III , I'd never seen before. Ron Cook as crookback. The bloke who played Jarvis in Porridge as Hastings. three quid - a bargain!

I loved it but they hadn't cut a single line - as far as I could see.   Finished watching dvd 1 at 3am last night.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 03:23 PM

Steve
Are you serious ?
They are totally unrepresentative of what's happening in Ireland - as far as "raw and immediate - I would say at least are poor repetitiveness of what was happening three decades ago - dreadful
If that's what you think godd, - you can keep it, I'm afraid
As far from narrative folk song as you can possibly get
Thank you for making my point about the media being no guide far better than I ever could
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:04 PM

well its like I was saying before. if your belief in these acts helps you to take a proactive enjoyment of folk music. Go for it.

You don't need Jim or my approbation.

If it produces some really good experience for you. We will be pleased for you.

I'm not saying we'll understand it. But bon chance! as they say in Peckham!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:07 PM

>>>>>>You are not suggesting that the media is a source of information on reliable on things folk, are you ?<<<<<<

Not for one moment.
BUT this particular article is well-written and researched and if you don't like what they've got to say that's your problem. Perhaps you can tell us the difference between the songs they're writing and those written by MacColl for instance. At least one group there, an English group well established on the scene, give their biggest influence as MacColl & Seeger.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:35 PM

It's a tad curmudgeonly to depict Lankum and O'Neil's music as 'dreadful' even if it is not to your liking. I suppose Daoiri Farrell, Landless, Terence O'Flaherty and others would be similarly dismissed. Would Phil Callery get a guernsey - he's older and sings
unaccompanied?

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:35 PM

"It's a tad curmudgeonly to depict Lankum and O'Neil's music as 'dreadful' "
I didn't specify them specifically - I've seen them perform live
I think there are better groups - not my favourite form of singing anyway
"At least one group there, an English group well established on the scene, give their biggest influence as MacColl & Seeger."
Doesn't show it - whatever theitr claimed influences MacColl and Seeger write word-based songs - none of those are
Well written - not enough of it to judge, but it shows no knowledge of nor feel for folk music - just a bunch of names
"Would Phil Callery get a guernsey"
I've heard Phil song on his own and enjoyed what he did
I have no desire to discuss my or anybody's personal tastes otherwise mid career Sinatra would be up here
This is (or should be) about how these people fit in with folk song proper - none of them do - or maybe I've missed something
As the ban said in 'Round Midnight', - you have the tunes but where's your story ?"
All this only serves to convincing me that the folk scene has really gone down the pan if this is what passes for folk
Quite honestly, it leaves me with the feeling that the research side of folk has gone over to 'The Dark Side'
This really is an amorphous mess
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:36 PM

Its meant to be amorphous.

Its not a linear thing like the grades in the civil service.

All kinds of people in different places doing different things.

And its not obligatory for anyone to like them all.

Thank god!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 03:35 AM

"Its meant to be amorphous."
No it most certainly isn't Al - if you give your music a general title, in this case, folk, that is what it is about, otherwise you may as well jut call in 'music'
I think the names cited on this Observer article lifts the lid (for me at least) on what's gone wrong with the folk scene
As youngsters, we came looking for an alternative to the pap we were being fed, a chance from being passive recipients of our entertainment and instead, something we could at least get near to and participate in ourselves
Folk song was that 'something - smallish rooms in venues were we could talk about the songs we heard and become singers ourselves if we wished
Once you became part of that, you could take it as far as you wanted.
We could research (I did, almost immediately, we could meet the source singers - incredible trips in time machines; Pat and I spent over thirty years taling to singers who represented several generations of the music I had become hooked on   
You could learn the techniques of singing, not by reading books but simply by experimenting with your own voice - along with like mined others if you were lucky - we were, Iwas asked to join one of the leading experimenters in the techniques of singing, my first contact with them inspired me to set up a singing workshop - last we set up one in London that lasted about fifteen years.
Some singers became writers on the subject - half a singing duet - George Deabcon and Marion Ross, wrote a magnificent book on poet, George Crabbes folk connection, I remember David Atkinson when he was singer Dave Atkinson...
My mate, Bob Thomson, who sang with his mate, Mike Herring, became a leading researcher on broadsides and was sadly poached by Gainesville University and became Professor Robert Thomson....

The folk scene in those days was extremely democratic in that anybody who wished to could be part of it on par with the best - it was ours
Now we seem to have returned to bums on seats being sung at by media chosen superstars - back to what we escaped from
Sure - we have the sing-around clubs, what's left of them, but all the examples of 'success' that have been put up here are those who have 'made it' in something that bears little resemblance to the songs sung by Jeannie Robertson, Walter Pardon, Brigid Tunney... and all those who passed on the real thing
The most disturbing thing is on the research front which seems to be made up of a bunch of ivory towerists who belive they can re-define our music as the mood takes them, throw over a centuries resarch in the bin and who seem to believe they know more than Child, Sharp, Lord, Lomax... and the rest of them put together
We're back to being bums in seats - passive recipients - all over again
May be success to you - not me, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 03:36 AM

Well put, Al.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 03:42 AM

Jim, just for absolute clarity there are 3 issues here. If I get this right you are criticising
1 The Journalism here
2 The songs written by the performers
3 The performers themselves?

And we are obviously referring to 'contemporary folk songs using folk forms and functions' (your phrase). I prefer 'in the folk idiom' but that's just my personal choice.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:05 AM

THat was lovely description Jim of how the folk revival started. But ....when the genie out of the bottle. we lose control.

I bet Ewan would have understood. After all...what people did to his songs was nobody's business.

My one successful commercially successful song was buggered up by the record company and the publisher. The Bayern Munich fans turned it into a chant on the terraces!

We lose control, once these things are in the public domain. That goes for ideas. Its like Einstein and Hiroshima. We just don't know where creativity will lead.

By the standards of Einstein, the folk revival has been a howling success.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 07:20 AM

Not critcising Steve - they are beyond my knowledge or experience for me to be able to do that
They have no claim to be fork songs nor based on folk styles or objectives
Haven'tr been given enough of the article to criticise it as a piece of journalism but certainly enough to know that it's been written by somedody who knows as much about folk song as I do about The Ring Cycle

"We lose control, once these things are in the public domain. "
Great reason not to let the music industry get its grubby hands on it

That is exactly what has happened - the musical movement that was set up to escape the music industry has been sold into its hands again
No music can claim success of any sort if it doesn't have its own identity - we had one of thoose once, now nobody can agree what it is
sory Steve - nodding dog responses don't mean very much if they ignore the crux of this discussion
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 08:36 AM

I think to be fair to the music industry (though why I should be, I REALLY can't think)

I think I can safely state, they would have no designs on any of the folk clubs I've been in recently.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM

"I think I can safely state, they would have no designs on any of the folk clubs I've been in recently."
No - but those booked judge success by how far the music industry's greasy pole they manage to claw their way up by way of media driven glittering prizes
Unfortunately, far too many folk enthusiast or potential ones wouldn't be seen dead in many of today's clubs
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 09:00 AM

I had a great night as guest at cork singers club, every song was unaccompanied and plenty of variety of songs, songs in irish, songs in english, thoroughly enjoyable

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM

There weren't any guests in the clubs I frequent regularly. Everyone virtually I knew is dead who was a club pro. It was another era. like I say - they've done something different, and its their world.

I go and see Wizz Jones now (he's getting on). I'd go and see Brian peters -if he came any where near me, Sunjay - cos I taught his dad guitar, Steve Hicks and Lynn Goldbourn (cos I've known Steve Forty odd years).

None of them are doing it cos they can't get on the X factor.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 09:10 AM

I have to say , i had a good laugh at dave the gnomes comment telling me [that not every songwriter wrote about personal realationships], he seems to have forgotten i have written a few songs myself.
I am versatile enough to be able to do either unaccompanied or accompanied, which is more than some can do., it does require practice and effort

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 09:15 AM

"None of them are doing it cos they can't get on the X factor."
Tell that to teh people who put up superstars as an argument that the scee is doing well Al
You might start with Save's Wili entry and progress to the Observer list
Not a mention of those who slog away week after week
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 09:16 AM

Sorry - concentration slipped
Should read Dave's Wiki entry - dread to think what his Wili is !
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 11:09 AM

>>>>>>>They have no claim to be fork songs nor based on folk styles or objectives<<<<<<

Really?

Like you I know little about the other 3 performers/groups. I was actually praising the journalism as I did read the whole 5 pages.

However, I do know a fair bit about The Youn'uns who despite their rise to fame are firmly grounded in the folk club scene and the folk scene in general. Until recently they were a very good a capella trio singing largely traditional songs. you could say they have served a very worthy apprenticeship like most of our up-and-coming performers.

What interests me is your absolute confidence in your belief that their contemporary songs are nothing like those MacColl produced.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 11:31 AM

"firmly grounded in the folk club scene"
REALLY ?
Coulda fooled me, unless you are talking about what the present scene has become, which has littlee to do with the previous one, which in its turn was taking inspiration from source singers
"nothing like those MacColl produced."
I have never compared anybody's songs to MacColl's - he was one of many songwriters composing in folk forms - don't see much of that among this lot
I had only heard Lankum so I searched the rest out - hence my comments
A Capella refers to unacompanied music which is only a part of traditional singing, not a definition of it
Want to call your clubs a cappela clubs - fine by me, but you'll have to lose the yeboards and drums and double bases......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 11:40 AM

"A Capella refers to unacompanied music" ???

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 11:43 AM

Yes, REALLY. This would have been welcome in any folk club I've been to in the last 50 years :

https://youtu.be/0clMlnU4gyQ

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 12:18 PM

I'm glad you had a good laugh, Dick. I like to give something back for all your hilarious posts :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 12:32 PM

BTW, I hadn't forgotten that you had written some songs. I had no idea you had because, as I said before, I have no interest whatsoever.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 12:58 PM

Yes, REALLY. This woul"d have been welcome in any folk club I've been to in the last 50 years "
Are youi serious - that's the dullest non-traditional piece of singing I've ever heard in years (I think it was the last time I was in church - at a funeral
YOU PROBABLY WON'T LIKE THIS
NOR THIS

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 01:01 PM

You surprise me Dave, Dick's pretty good at what he does. Very good in fact. i should have thought you might have liked his stuff. Excellent instrumentalist.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 01:02 PM

AND YOU'LL DETEST THIS
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 01:12 PM

I shall never know, Al.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 01:16 PM

I'm beginning to understand more of where you're coming from now, Jim.
I was inspired by the Watersons in 1965 singing our English traditional songs. They are at the back of all the books I've written, songs I've collected, songs I've written latterly, all the albums I've been involved with, and all the many many projects I've been involved with. I now understand this means sod all to you. The field is all yours!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 02:17 PM

"I was inspired by the Watersons in 1965 singing our English traditional songs. T"
The Wartersons produced a nice but limited sound which palled after a couple of songs because they sounded so samey and did much what much what the blokes above did - a note per syllable - 4 square s the term we used to use
You could march to what they did but that's about all - totally devoid of interpretation
I played the first tracks of 'Frost and Fire' but I don't think I played side two till some time later, I found it so disappointingly dull
I don't want a pissing match with you but we've all done something - you books, us radio programmes, lectures, albums of field recordings.... and a huge number of recordings, mainly of singers talking about their singing... from your description of my being "starry-eyed and naive" I don't suppose that means much to you
I don't care what you think of our work, the people who matter to us have told us what they think of it and have ascertained that whatever we did will be around long after we are gone, which, as far as I'm concerned, matters far more than any arguments we might have   
I value your work for what it is - the tracing of folk songs to their earliest printed sources
Beeyond that, I have no idea, but from what I've seen of the dwindling interest in traditional song I detect from these arguments, I wonder who is going to care in a decade's time
Mucjh of your work is contradicted by what you and others have put here as where folk song is in England today, instead of that depressing you (as it does me) you seem quite contented with the fact that those singers owe nothing to the singers we care about.

I chose those singers I put up fairly carefully - Elizabeth Cronin, a fine example of the earlier generation of Irish traditional singers, Len Graham, a singer who took his songs and style from the old singers, sang with them on tours, took them around the schools and did masses of work to preserve their songs and recordings
Last you have Nelí - Bess Cronin's great grand-daughter and the third of the family's generation
Neli is not alone - she' represents the new generation of singers of traditional songs - youngsters like her have already flocked to the music and now are beginning to take on the songs
When you can produce singers like those you can claim to ahve a future worth boasting about beats the dull group singing to march-time any day inn my book
MY MATE JOHN SINGING ONE OF HIS OWN SONGS
You can read his PhD on his family's singing tradition set in its social and geographical context in the next Folk Music Journal
Now that's something I would have been proud to have done
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM

I like all 4 of those clips, Jim, so don't you ever patronise me and tell me what I like and don't like. I'm done with this pointless discussion. I'm glad you've found your musical Mecca in Ireland. We'll just get on with it, here in the UK.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:08 AM

"I like all 4 of those clips, Jim, so don't you ever patronise me and tell me what I like and don't like."
I don't do thet with anybody
My argument is about what is suitable to be called folk - that's all
Personal tastes have no place in any of this - just judgements
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Brimbacombe
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:15 AM

"The Wartersons produced a nice but limited sound which palled after a couple of songs because they sounded so samey and did much what much what the blokes above did... totally devoid of interpretation... etc..."

Is this not perilously close to the 'corpse kicking' that you are so keen to accuse others of, Jim? Of course it isn't, because it's you doing it this time.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:18 AM

Going right back to the name of the thread, I thought the 60's "folk club boom" was much inhabited by people playing Bob Dylan and Donovan songs or trying to play in the style of Bert Jansch or Davy Graham? I must admit it could be a mistaken impression as I did not come into folk clubs until the mid 70's.

No hidden agenda here. Just wondering if this was the case and, if so, how come the contemporary folk and even psychedelia of the 60's sat alongside traditional folk in harmony while now it seems to create such a controversy.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:36 AM

quote:- "My argument is about what is suitable to be called folk - that's all
Personal tastes have no place in any of this - just judgements."

That statement would have some merit if it were not for the fact that the only person who seems to be allowed to be in charge of making the decisions on these matters is the person who made that post. He talks about "judgements"; are all the other participants in this thread happy to accept the didactic pronouncements of the Miltown Malbay Magistrate as the sole arbiter of "what is suitable to be called folk"?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:37 AM

Not really. There were clubs like the Jolly Porter in Exeter that were very tradyy from the early 60's. And of course Bert was pretty traddy himself. Much of his repertoire was trad.

There were lots of trad songers like Tony rose, the Journeymen in Exeter, The Yetties. And of course the Spinners and the Corries were very big. The Dubliners had two hit records in the 1960's. As did Dominic Behan. The Yetties repertoire was most exclusively trad.

Out in the villages there were people like Bob Cann. Up north there was the Eliot family. Louis Killen. The young Tradition. carthy and The watersons.

Fred Jordan....that's just off the top of my head

But the music that was bringing people into the folk clubs undeniably was the Peter paul and mary/Dylan stuff. Also the Where have all the Flowers gone peacenik stuff. cos remember we all thought we were going up in an atomic bomb pretty soon.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM

Big Al. I think Joan Baez deserves a mention.



https://www.officialcharts.com/artist/11750/joan-baez/

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 06:23 AM

"But the music that was bringing people into the folk clubs undeniably was the Peter paul and mary/Dylan stuff. "
That was during the folk boom, which dissipated when there was no longer a big enough profit to be got
It was then that the folk clubs came into their own and made their own music free from the pressures of the Industry
"who seems to be allowed "
Who is stopping anybody debating - unless you want to include those who use abusive terms like "folk police" and "Miltown Malbay Magistrate
We are disagreeing - you want to claim you are being bullied by one person then I'm afraid you're going to have to report me to teacher
I'm very much in the minority here and I haven't complained about being bullied
What's the matter with you people ?
I have a century old tried and tested identification of folk song which has served pretty well to unite large numbers of people around an identifiable form of song for as long as that
Now that that definition has been abandoned and not replaced by anything workable in the clubs, those numbers are dwindling at a rapid rate - coincidence maybe ?
I don't think so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 07:39 AM

coincidence maybe ?

Maybe. I think it is only part of the picture though. People are just not going out any more as witnessed by the number of pubs shutting. In the last 20-odd years many have had their disposable incomes slashed and the first thing that goes are the luxuries. From the 60s right through to the early 90s people would happily buy beer at pub prices, pay to see folk singers and buy their wares. Now they are fare more likely to buy 4 cans for £3 at Tesco's, put something on the telly and stream folk songs through the free version of Spotify.

Another thing we can blame on austerity. In my opinion.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 07:57 AM

well i don't recollect that big a gulf. the watersons for example got the soul cake song from peter, paul and mary - i recall reading.

The first time I saw Fred Jordan was on a package tour with Bert Jansch and the yetties and the Watersons..

One bloke I should have mentioned, whom I thought was the bees knees at the time was Johnny Handle. Although he did misinform me. He told me that Lord Robens would sort out the English mining industry.

Sorry if I bullied you Jim. It was unintentional.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 08:17 AM

Didn't think you did Al- not your thing
My comments were directed at our unidentified guest
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 09:56 AM

quote : - "I have a century old tried and tested identification of folk song"
.... but it is far from being the only one so please allow other people's view of the definition to stand. Many modern scholars from A.L.Lloyd and Hamish Henderson onwards have shunned a precise definition of 'folk song' as being of little value because of the wide variation in the usage of the term. You would give more credence to your statements if you sometimes used qualifiers like "In my opinion...." or "My experience leads me to believe....." rather than making bald statements as if they were factual when they are not.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:15 AM

"but it is far from being the only one so please allow other people's view of the definition to stand"
What definition - the peopl;e in general don't give a toss and those who don't accept the established one can't agree on what they mean by folk
The only other alternative is to just do away with the word altogether - you are making it meaningless
Nobodyy is talking about a "precise" definition of folk - just one that encapsulateds the standard one enough to allow us to turn up to a folk club and know what we're going to hear
Since when has the standard one been useless - it continues to be used to identify huge collections of songs such as 'The Carpenter Collection, and The Gavin Greig 8 volume set
It may have come "useless" or more likely 'inconvenient' to a dwindling bunch of folkies who would rather listen to something else, but until you get around to burning the previous collections and researched works, I'm afraid folk remains what it means - 'The voice of the people
Sorry 'bout that
Ican keep this up as long as you can - I'm answering ypur points - you are ignoring mine
I'm learning more and more when that happens
Once again - nothing to do with "my experience - plenty of evidence beyond that - where's yours - none of you has come anything near to bringing together Van Diemans Land and the songs of The Kinks?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 11:42 AM

Tell yo what guest
You give me your definition of folk song - does that help ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:48 PM

What definition - the people in general don't give a toss

Are these "people in general" the "folk"? If not why not? And if they don't care, why shouldn't folk clubs be guided by that lack of concern?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM

The Old pubs by Johnny Handle


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIzaX4TS0kk

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 01:28 PM

Sigh
Because the real thing is far to well documented
Would you redefimne Quantum Physics or Prime numbers because most people don't know or care what they are
The way things are going, maybe you would
I asked your for your definition - none was forthcoming
Checkmate, I think.
You really don't giv a toss what has happened to real folk song, do you ?
About time somebody put their hands up to this
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 01:46 PM

I think whether we agree with Jim or not, you should respect his view. And his right to have to have those views.

His jaundiced view of the contemporary folk scene is a consequence of the times he lived through, and the people who influenced him. he can't unlive those times, can't blot out those influences.

However, his beliefs have helped him in his work, which has been for the general good.

so behave yourselves!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:27 PM

As much as I appreciate the thought Al, please stop patronising me - I've already had too much
In the face of the lack of argument here, I certainly don't need it
Again, these are not "my views' - they are the documented and long "accepted facts of wht fol song is - it would be flattering to accept credit for it, but....
You've all done a great deal to confirm that my views are pretty well as things stand - a takeover of an important music scene to be used for dumping unnamed and unnameable music
Couple of bloody operations in Holby City should cheer me up no end
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:47 PM

Going right back to the name of the thread, I thought the 60's "folk club boom" was much inhabited by people playing Bob Dylan and Donovan songs or trying to play in the style of Bert Jansch or Davy Graham? I must admit it could be a mistaken impression as I did not come into folk clubs until the mid 70's."
Yes you are mistaken, that happened but was not100per cent the situation,OR ANYTHING LIKE IT there were also tradtional singers who sang at revival folk clus, the revival was much more mixed[as i recollect it]
.Dave, if you were not present in the sixties, then you are out of your depth in this discussion

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:58 PM

Ok. I'll put up my hands. I do care about "real folk song". I also care about Morris dancing, dance music in general and country pubs. But compared to the real issues we have in the world they pale into insignificance. Your passion is exemplary, Jim. Sorry I cannot match it. I shall however continue supporting my local folk club, Morris side, country pub and our conversations. Long may they all survive.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:58 PM

How I remembered it - the contemporary and the trad thing coexisted fairly well for a long time.

The pro singers like Hamish Imlach were very eclectic, you might get Where the Gaudie Rins next to Blind lemon Jefferson.

I used to like that.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:44 PM

Me too, Al. In my neck of the woods there were very traditional clubs, clubs for political and song writers, and then those where anything was encouraged. I was part of the traditional club where anything that was not strictly acceptable as 'folk' was frowned upon (you could call it a Jim club) and there was a definite tendency to look down on anything that didn't come up to this standard such as the more contemporary club in the same room on a different night. Incidentally MacColl was seen by the trad club as too political! Although they did organise a concert of him and Peggy in a larger building.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:24 PM

I can't do copypaste from Facebook but Phil Edwards in Manchester had gone to the trouble to list the forty or more songs from their last session & about half have Roud numbers.
An interesting read.
https://m.facebook.com/groups/541081715914667?view=permalink&id=2183263421696480

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:58 AM

"But compared to the real issues we have in the world they pale into insignificance. "
We can't do much about the real issues Dave - te future of folk song lies in our hands and we can do something about it
That is a feeble answer - what it means is you don't care enough about the future of folk song to do anything about it.
"How I remembered it - the contemporary and the trad thing coexisted fairly well for a long time."
Me too - and I well remember the time when people knew the difference
Whether you wanted to little to both was a matter of choice - my time as a fairly busy individual with other interests was limited to my choosing to listen to the music I loved best so I limited my visits to traditional based clubs - I had the luxury of that choice - now I do not
THat was the time before traditional ballads were considered "unsuitable" or "tolerated".
I was happy to go to conferences because I knew they would be about music I knew to be folk - now, Christ knows what they's be discussing 0- ' The Little Shirt my Mother Made For Me' maybe ?
The times certainly have a-changed, as somebody once nearly sang
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 03:06 AM

"We can't do much about the real issues Dave -the future of folk song lies in our hands and we can do something about it
That is a feeble answer - what it means is you don't care enough about the future of folk song to do anything about it."


Ok so what should we be doing to "save" folk song, please??

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 03:24 AM

"Ok so what should we be doing to "save" folk song, please??"
Make an issue of them rather than "tolerating them" - sing the songs rather than hiring somebody to do it for you,like the ladies in the cosmetics advert say - they really are worth it
I wish I has a euro for every time I've heard somebody say they feel uncomfortable and unwelcome when they sing their unaccompanied songs in a folk club - that should not happen, and that is does is a sign that something is rotten in the State of Folkland
I've just poured out my heart about what folk song has meant to me personally on the other thread - haven't got time to do it again - the dentist won't wait
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 04:01 AM

The times certainly have a-changed, as somebody once nearly sang"depends how you define singning , jim its was singing but not as we know it

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 04:59 AM

what it means is you don't care enough about the future of folk song to do anything about it.

No, Jim. It doesn't mean I don't care. It means that I have a limited time in this mortal coil and I am prioritising what I do with it. The future of folk takes a back seat to the welfare of my family and me. If the future of folk is more important to you, fine, that is your choice. But don't judge everyone by your own standards.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

Dave
You choose to call what yuo do folk - you refuse to respond to teh damage that attitude has done to real folk music and you sstill consider Ed sheeran and co suitable for the present folk scene
What do you care about if this doesn't interest you ?
I'm responding to you because you stuck your neck out - doesn't mean you are alone by any means
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 10:31 AM

You choose to call what yuo do folk

Yes I do Jim. I have posted links of what I do. What do you call it?

you refuse to respond to teh damage that attitude has done to real folk music

I have responded many times and pointed this out before. I have said specifically that I believe it has done no damage. Just because you disagree does not mean I have not responded.

What do you care about if this doesn't interest you ?

I just said I do care about what I do and I am interested in it. Just not to the extent that you are. I thought I made that clear.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:21 AM

"What do you call it? "
Not my problem - whatever you look at it, Ed Sheeran ain't folk
Then we really don;'t have anything to say to each other
What do you think has turned a movement which could count a few thousand clubs to the giddy heights of - 186 (by your link) if it wasn't a departure of folk to ... whatever you call your music
Sorry; this is really a waste of time - you really have not responded
If it's OK, I'll do the same
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM

You choose to call what yuo do folk

You said what I do, Jim, not what I like. Or is it another one of those things where you say one thing and mean another? I have posted links to what I do so I can only assume that you are saying that what I do is not folk. No skin off my nose, but if it is not folk, what is it?

What do you think has turned a movement which could count a few thousand clubs to the giddy heights of - 186

Yet again, I have answered that. Very recently in fact.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 07:39 AM

coincidence maybe ?

Maybe. I think it is only part of the picture though. People are just not going out any more as witnessed by the number of pubs shutting. In the last 20-odd years many have had their disposable incomes slashed and the first thing that goes are the luxuries. From the 60s right through to the early 90s people would happily buy beer at pub prices, pay to see folk singers and buy their wares. Now they are fare more likely to buy 4 cans for £3 at Tesco's, put something on the telly and stream folk songs through the free version of Spotify.

Another thing we can blame on austerity. In my opinion.

Once again, because you disagree with the answer does not mean I have not responded.

Constant repetition that I have not responded when I obviously have does not do your argument any good whatsoever. Sorry.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:56 AM

When I was a lad, I went to teacher training college.
The lecturers there (let's be kind!) were almost to man (and woman) utter wankers.

The accepted wisdom of the time was the child educates himself heuristically. He discovers the truths of life for him or herself.

Accordingly I was taking a poetry lesson in a secondary modern school. And luckily this day, I had the one lecturer who had been taught to teach on his national service in the RAF, where he had lectured in radio communication.

Anyway he watched me. And I, as my lecturers had taught me, got the kids to read the poem out we were studying.

This very clever ex- service man explained to me
Alan, these are 15 year old kids. What do they know about poetry. YOU must read it to them. Show them what it means to you.
That's how I learned to perform folk songs. By listening to people who had to do it and present it so well, it put food on the table.
Here endeth the first lesson. Not just one set of ideas emptied the folk clubs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:01 PM

Those are excuses Dave and no way do they address the fact that people who like Ed heeran are not going to turn up to listen to long ballads - and vice versa - simple logic
You've taken the folk ot of the folk scene and the fact that you won't address that makes any further discussion totally a waste of time
I and my mates turned up regularly to folk clubs from the time when I was an apprentice earning £9 a week - it was a cheap night out
When the folk scene began to bomb people were doing reasonably well economically
I'm tired of people blaming everything other than the obvious - by removing folk from the folk clubs you have driven people away in their thousands
Stop blaming everything except yourselves
Let's leave it there while we're still talking to each other eh ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 04:21 PM

No idea what you are getting so shirty about, Jim. The only blame I have laid is on austerity while you seem to be blaming me and anyone who agrees with me for the demise of folk music.

I have posted links to my own stuff. You say it is not folk and that I am driving people away from folk clubs in their thousands. Come on, give me a clue here. Of the 4 songs I have on YouTube, 2 are indisputebly folk, 1 is a contemporary song in the folk idiom written by Peter Knight and one is a dance tune played on a traditional anglo concertina. Are they all so awful that they drive people away or just some of them? Or is it just me? I have a few other songs I perform either accompanied or not. I think they are mainly, if not all, traditional folk somgs. Apart from my showing a liking for some music from this millenium, which I never perform, how am I harming folk clubs?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 04:22 PM

You are never, ever going to persuade anyone to listen to your kind of music by telling them that what they currently listen to (e.g. Ed Sheeran) is crap. All you will do is come across as a grumpy old fool who can't appreciate something obviously gorgeous and whose opinion is utterly worthless.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 08:39 PM

"No idea what you are getting so shirty about, Jim"
Really - after all this time you still churn out the same old same old without being prepared to back up your statements
Not shirty - just disappointed
Sheeran has nothing to do with folk song - my point
If you can say I'm a grumpy old fool for not liking something you do, does that make my expressing my opinion any different than you expressing yours or does it make you a grumpy (whatever you are) fool
We appear to live in a world of untouchable superstars and indignant followers
"You say it is not folk "
If my memory serves me, I said your own stuff was fine - can you correct me please
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Bill S from Adelaide
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:59 AM

I waded through a lot of posts without finding a reference to the greatest exponent of folk song in the 60's and one who piqued my interest. I refer of course to Rambling Sid Rumpo who was obviously in tune with the folk song revival

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:03 AM

more folk like his music than your music Jim.
thats what it has to do with folk.
he presents his music with professionalism.

the people , you seem to admire - the recordings remind me of my Cecilia Costello album. Which despite beautiful packaging - I can't really remember anyone I've played it to, singing along with.

I don't think I can square the circle.

Dave represents the passion to communicate folksong and music.

You represent the passion to curate what we have and preserve what's disappearing.

Try to understand Jim. There's no Singing together in schools these days. If the austerity freaks had their way - there would be no music at all just IT - so kids could play their fucking computer games. That spirit of post war love of our country and its culture is dead.

Geordie kids don't know The Keel Row. Lincolnshire kids don't know The Lincolnshire Poacher. Cornish kids don't know Trelawney.

People who can reach millions with music and have some awareness of their roots (like Sheeran) are important.

You don't have to love what they do - just try to understand and stop dissing other peoples efforts.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM

Jim, you seem to have replied to both me and Jack without taking a breath. It is little wonder that your arguments come across as unstructured at times. Please take time to separate the points so we know what you are talking about. If we stick to one point at a time there is little room for confusion.

If my memory serves me, I said your own stuff was fine - can you correct me please

I'm afraid that your memory does fail you. It was only yesterday that posted this.

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

Dave
You choose to call what yuo do folk - you refuse to respond to teh damage that attitude has done to real folk music

There is only one way I can interpret this. I do call what I do folk. You do not it folk and tell me that it is damaging 'real folk music'. You do not say what I think or what I say but what I do. The only things you know that I do are the clips I have posted of me performing on YouTube. I did ask what you call them if you do not call them folk and you have just diverted the topic. I can only assume that you do not want to tell me how you think that my performances are doing so much damage.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:07 AM

...and a big yes to Rambling Sid, Bill S. :-) Thanks for the reminder. I must digitise the cassette tapes I have one day

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:43 AM

"It is little wonder that your arguments come across as unstructured at times"
I do my best Dave - I've had about half a century of singing and work to make up my mind what I believe folk song to be - if I am going to decide I got it all wrong I need more than a handful of excuses
"I do call what I do folk."
Then you need to justify your doing so in order to make sense of what you do
If everybody did that we wouldn't be able to distinguish between the myriad types of music at our disposal

"more folk like his music than your music Jim"
Of course they do Al - he has the power of the music industry behind him and the support of Elton John on occasion - that's what makes him a pop singer rather than a folk singer
If I worried about numbers I'd have stayed with Eddie Chochrane and Ricky Nelson all those year ago.
Your arguments become more and more illogical - I have documented evidence to identify my music, along with arguments, discussions, explanations, and social history - do you have any to back up your claim

This is not unlike what's happening in Westminster at present - a decision has been taken that will cause great harm, yet those involved plough on with it anyway - now you are using the same argument they are - "The people have spoken"
Madness
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:47 AM

A simple point
On the one hand we are discussing one very identifiable and specific type of music - on the other you are arguing that no barrier exists and anything that you choose to call folk music is folk music
The two of us can't be right - specific or non specific - what is it to be ?
You can't decide among yourselves what music you are talking about enough to define it- lets's see if you can agree on that one
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Liamtho
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:49 AM

I have just written a nostalgic song looking back on my early years in Folk.

https://soundcloud.com/user-510776558/sing-a-song-of-yesterday

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM

"I do call what I do folk."
Then you need to justify your doing so in order to make sense of what you do

I have justified it, Jim. I have put up links of me performing what I do. You keep telling us it is not folk but do not tell us why. There are 4 clips of me doing what I do. They are.

1. The old cock crows. Unaccompanied. Folk song.
2. Guitar piece, The waltz of the bells. Learned off my Dad who learned it from Gypsies in his native Poland before the war. You don't get much more folky.
3. The wind than shakes the barley. Sung with concertina accompaniment. OK, this may be debatable as it is contemporary, written by Peter Knight in the 1990s. I think it uses the folk idiom pretty well though.
4. Tommy don't go. Waltz tune played on traditional anglo concertina. I got this from a concertina tutor. Presumably written by the author who's name escapes me. If you want to dispute this one as it has a known writer, fine. Just dismiss all of O'Carolan's work while you are at it.

So, there you have it. Justification for what I do. NB Not what I think or what I like, but what I do. Actions speak louder than words.

Once again, how is what I do not folk? If it is not, I obviously need to stop doing it in folk clubs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:11 AM

Purely out of interest, the site I often use for research of songs is 'Mainly Norfolk'.

I like their sub-title. "English Folk and Other Good Music" :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:22 AM

Jim, you claim that "by removing folk from the folk clubs you have driven people away in their thousands".

The problem I have with that argument is that what I hear in folk clubs today is not very different from what I heard in the 70s and 80s. Whatever it was that caused the decline in folk clubs, I don't think it was the material being performed. The type of music you could expect to hear in clubs back then (and now) was determined more by style than origin, and encompassed contemporary folk, music hall, Sacred Harp and other forms alongside traditional "1954" folk. What made them acceptable to the audiences was the style in which they were performed.

I think the idea that the folk clubs somehow safeguarded traditional singing is mistaken. The folk club movement as I experienced it in the 70s and 80s was not very interested in authentic "source" traditional singers, it was principally concerned with the folk revival, which has developed its own style of performance which is largely accompanied. In more than 20 years of visiting folk clubs several times a week, in different parts of the country, I saw only two traditional singers in folk clubs - the Copper Family and Walter Pardon. For the first 10 years of my involvement in folk I was simply unaware that authentic traditional music still existed, with the exception of the Coppers (who I took to be a unique and anachronistic survival).

The regrettable fact is that authentic traditional singing and playing has always been a minority interest, even amongst those who who are interested in folk music. For most of them, this means "revival folk". Traditional singing is too raw and too different from what they are accustomed to listening to, especially when it is only available on record without the immediacy of being in the room. This is hard core stuff, and most people who enjoy revival folk don't make that leap.

I think Jim may have been exceptionally fortunate in being involved in particular folk clubs and with a particular group of people who took a special interest not only in traditional music and traditional singers but in understanding it and discussing it. I don't think this was typical of most clubs, certainly not by the time I became involved at the end of the 60s, when the clubs were places of entertainment rather than study.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM

"The problem I have with that argument is that what I hear in folk clubs today is not very different from what I heard in the 70s and 80s"
Maybe in your part of the world Howard and plenty of evidence to show that's the case
Ive just digitised articles of interest in our magazine collection in preperation for donating them to Limeric Uni's World music department - the magazines, particularly the long standing ones like FDolk Review were overwhelmingly traditional based, Keith summers produced a series oof excellent series which weer puerly traditional - largely based on source performers
An enerprising member of this forum, CJB has been busy making radio programmes available - including big chunks of programmers like Folk on Two - heavily traditional - bever a Elton John duetist to be seen
p to ten years ago Steve Roud was turning away non-traditional material, as was correct - I still don't see 'Ed Sheeran's 'Galway Girl' in his listings
People knew the difference between fol songs and pop songs well into the 21st century - the sell-out has been a comparatively new fly in the folk ointment
None of my experiences were 'fortunate" - clubs did what they'd committede tehmselves to do and we could choose on the basis of how they did it
No longer this case with the mish-mash that now passes for 'folk'
As you say - folk has always been a minority interest - even at the time the tradition was in full swing - this is the first time it's ever been threatened with extinction due to indifference and antipathy
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:07 AM

Whoops
"plenty of evidence to show that was not the case elsewhere"
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:12 AM

did anybody ever answer the original question?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:24 AM

did anybody ever answer the original question?

Don't be daft, this is Mudcat

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:58 AM

You got waylaid again, Jim. See 14 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:58 AM

Jim, the majority of the music I heard in folk clubs was "traditionally based" and still is. However the guests these clubs booked were folk revival singers - Martin Carthy, Nic Jones, Tony Rose, and their ilk. For those of us who sang and played ourselves, our sources were books and these performers' LPs. Very few of us looked to authentic source singers such as Walter Pardon for our material, and only very rarely did they appear as performers at folk clubs. The folk scene I knew was very much centred on modern, and usually accompanied, interpretations of folk, rather than the "real thing", which many of us were not aware still existed.

Alongside the traditional songs, these audiences were also willing to listen to a very wide range of other music, even the occasional pop song, provided that stylistically it sounded like folk as performed in clubs (easier to recognise than define). It was an aesthetic judgement. This didn't seem to stop the clubs from thriving during the boom years, and neither did it crowd out traditionally-sourced material.

Did I like everything I heard? Of course not, but that applied to some traditional songs too. On the whole I think I'd prefer to hear a modern song performed well than a traditional song performed badly. I'd also prefer to hear a good song rather than a poor one, and "traditional" is not always an indication of quality.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:20 AM

""traditionally based""
You're luck if that still is the case, that's not what is being argued for here and is not generally the case - Rod Stradling's editorial has presented the consequences of that quite starkly
"also willing to listen to a very wide range of other music, "
TNothing wrong with that, but when iit's what happens at a folk club you are not honouring you promise to your audiences by calling yourself what you do 'folk' - you are in fact talking about song clubs
It is the confusion and decline that we are discussing
Here in Ireland, we have 'singing circles' where what goes on depends largely on the who turns up
If the area has had a strong singing tradition, you are bound to get a dominance of traditional songs, usually sung well
We are extremely lucky in that Clare has a powerful traditional song and music history and our local Circle in Kilshanny is run by a good singer with a strong feel for traditional songs and the intelligence to balance the evening out and book guests with who have a sense of the tradition
Some I've tried don't so I don't bother going back - that's not a criticism of them, just me exercising my personal taste
In England I no longer have that luxury, which is why so many of us stopped going to clubs when we realised we were being conned
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Roger Moss
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM

Nice to see that the spirit of semantic antagonism is still alive and well, after all these years.
My own point of view hasn't changed, either: during my folk club days and nights I'd happily enjoy live performances from The Young Tradition, John Renbourn, Ewan McColl, Malcolm Price, The Dransfields, Gerry Lockran... you name them.
As long as it was well performed with commitment and a dash of charisma I'd give it a chance, and so did most audiences back then.
Perhaps it's time to calm down, sit back and enjoy the music again...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:31 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLdYamFmM3g UNLIKE HOWARD I WAS INFLUENCED BY TRADITIONAL SINGERS ,WILLIE SCOTT BOB LEWIS HARY COX ETC

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:35 AM

Rod is selling recordings of authentic traditional singers, not of folk revival performers. This is a minority interest even among those who like folk music. These are not singers who would very often be heard in folk clubs, if at all. What he does, which is admirable, has nothing to do with folk clubs.

"You are not honouring you promise to your audiences by calling yourself what you do 'folk' - you are in fact talking about song club" If that is the case then most folk clubs have been misdescribing themselves from the 60s onwards.

The decline of clubs probably has a number of causes, but I don't think the balance between traditionally sourced and other material has changed much, so I doubt this is the reason. What puts me off many clubs is not any lack of traditional music but the decline in standards, which has been discussed at length elsewhere. This is ironic, because at the other end of the scale standards of performance appear to be higher then ever, and young performers have access to better instruments and better tuition than ever before.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:57 AM

I would agree that declining standards play a part Howard and due to much higher standards at, as you point out, the other end, maybe audience tolerance of poorer standards has decreased too!

As you say, there are a number of reasons and they will all play their part.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM

"This is a minority interest even among those who like folk music"
These are singers who have filled shelves of record shops from teh beginning of the revival, have merited records and record labels of their own and have filled entire sets of books and are continuing to do so the magnificent Carpenter Collection is now on line - from day one 'Folk' has been a minority activity, as has Shakespeare and Classical Music - that in no way diminishes their importance and ability to entertain - all of a sudden, the fact that they are a "minority activity" becomes and excuse for the exodus from the clubs and the often hostility shown towards them
If a magnificent 2 CD Sam Lerner set can only sell 3 copies of now unavailable, some unreleased material (we bought one) , something has gone severely wrong and it is irresponsible to suggest otherwise
Not a great sign that new blood is being attracted probably the most important genre op people's culture, is it ?

"I don't think the balance between traditionally sourced and other material has changed much"
Of course it has
You have ignored what I have said Howard - I described what the magazines and radio programmes covered and no longer do yet you repeat yourself without responding to what I put up
You excuses for what has gone wrong are not unlike Dave's: one minute it is "nothing has gone wrong, next it is exuses of why it has

"Perhaps it's time to calm down, sit back and enjoy the music again..."
Perhaps you should direct your comments to those who insult with terms like "folk police" and "inflexible"
I have fairly calmly put my case as coherently as I am able; I have insulted no-one and, to be honest, am enjoying watching people running around defending the indefensible   
At least we seem to have broken the barrier that has made discussion of these topics a no-go area up to now - a step in the right direction, I suppose, if a small one
Who knows, maybe I'll live long enough to see the groundbreaking work MacColl and Seeger did with The Critics as calmly as this - stranger things happen at sea, as my mam used to say
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:04 AM

not unlike Dave's: one minute it is "nothing has gone wrong, next it is exuses of why it has

It would be much better if you addressed my post 14 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM before making new allegations, Jim. That way there will be no confusion as to whatever point it is about me that you are trying to make. Keep it simple for us all. Address one point at a time.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM

"14 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM "
I have Dave, several times
I have no problem with any of those - it's your "Ed Sheeran thing I can't get past
I've said the but, one more time
I I hwas at an evening where what you put up was the level of what happened - no problem; alitle limited maybe - the repertoire is much wider than those, but fine
It's not them I'm arguing against - it's everything else you and others are defending
Where does he fit in with any of those songs?tunes
Please don't raise this again - it's been sorted a long tiome ago as far as I'm concerned
I put up what I believe to be the features that identify folk songs - you keep saying you've responded - you really haven't
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:16 AM

Jim, you said what I do damages folk song. Not what I say or what I think. I take it the last response was another one of those about face moments. I should be used to them by now I suppose...

it's your "Ed Sheeran thing I can't get past

I like some songs by Ed Sheeran. I like some songs by Led Zeppelin. I like some songs by The Dixie Chicks, but I never 'do' them so how does that damage folk clubs?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:28 AM

The subject of this thread, "UK 60s Folk Club Boom?" - not that it has had much of a chance to be discussed - is dealt with in the context of the 80th birthday of Topic records in an article in the Spring 2019 edition of fRoots that dropped through my letter box this morning. Colin Irwin uses Norma Waterson as his main interviewee for the article and there are discussions of the role that Lloyd and MacColl played in what might be called Topic's second phase when the emphasis was on traditional performers and the Stewarts, Barry & Gorman and the McPeakes are mentioned before it goes on to the role that the label played in the careers of Carthy, the Watersons, Shirley Collins etc.
It is dense and well-written and there is a lot of information to serve as a reminder for those of us who were involved during these years and as a background for those who were not lucky enough to be around at that time.
In another article Kevin Burke reflects on the London Irish music scene in the 1960s which ran in parallel but was distinct from the folk club scene.
Al Whittle somewhere above rightly mentions the importance of Joan Baez to the 1960s club scene; she took a break during a recent farewell British tour to reminisce about her early involvement and that forms another interesting article in this issue.

There is also a lot of articles about the current vibrant folk and traditional scene in these islands - one on the excellent Rowan Rheingans, a feature on an adventurous new album Oran Bagraidh that brings together young Scots and Irish Gaelic-speaking singers and introduces a newly-researched form of Gaelic, called here "Galloway Gaelic" which appears to be unintelligible to the two more widely spoken forms of that language. Many will be in a well documented career perspective on Martin Simpson.
Then there are full-length reviews of over 100 recent albums and the same number of shorter pieces on lots others including some reissues of the classic Topic albums from the 1960s.
I find it indispensable and the 148 pages will keep me reading until the next one emerges.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:35 AM

Does "travelling soldier" by the Dixie Chicks bridge the divide between C&W and Contemporary folk?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 12:02 PM

"not that it has had much of a chance to be discussed -"
You seemed quite happy to discuss this before you left Vic
People seemed wuit happy to continue this particular aspect in your absence
Kevin Burke
We introduced Kevin to the Folk Club scene via three cubs I was involved in, The Singers, The west London Club and The Railway in Stratford East - he took to it like a duck to water and said in an interview that it was a pleasant change to play to attentive audiences - others, such as Tom McCarthy, who we also introduced to folk clubs, said the same

"Jim, you said what I do damages folk song."
I said hat you advocated damaged folk music - if \I at any timne said you, it was a general comment aimed at those who share your ';'anything goes' view
You already know this; you've said how you don't have the time or inclination to get involved in organisation
"I never 'do' them so how does that damage folk clubs?"
You put him up as being appropriate for the title 'folk'
Are you going ti include Led Zeppelin and The Dixie Chicks in that - as much as I admire the latter for their stand against Trump, I sincerely hope not
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 12:32 PM

We can only go on our own experiences, and we should be cautious about drawing general conclusions from these. My experience has been that the folk clubs I occasionally attend now are not much different from the ones I attended more regularly 30 or 40 years ago - yours is apparently different. The balance of music I hear is much the same, largely but by no means exclusively traditional. The guests are often the same, together with some excellent young acts coming through. The audiences are certainly mostly the same individuals, but I know many young people who are involved in folk music, they are just not doing it in the same venues as us.

My point is simply that the folk clubs were always about more than just traditional song. They encompassed a broad range of other music, some of it with little connection to traditional song, but unified by a shared approach and style. This broad approach is nothing new, and if it is now a threat to traditional song it must also have been a threat during the boom years, and I simply don't believe this was the case.

I am not trying to diminish the importance of authentic traditional song, far from it. However the reality is that most people discover folk music through the revival, and for most that is sufficient. Only a few go on to discover the "real thing", and the world of folk clubs and festivals does little to steer them towards it. When I eventually discovered traditional singing in the 1970s it was not through folk clubs but through the English Country Music Weekends (which Rod Stradling was instrumental in setting up). It is perhaps even harder now for young people to discover true traditional singing except on record, but they then prefer to stream for free rather than buy CDs.

We are clearly not going to persuade one another, all I can say is that I am more optimistic about the future of folk than you are. Whether this includes folk clubs as we knew them is another matter.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:09 PM

Howard, i was running a club, which i booked you at, I was resident and sang unaccomp-anied tradtional songs, i think this was long before the english country music weekends about cicra i973, it was certainly well before anything john howsopn organised, because that was not until 1980 how do i know well he was a neighbour of mine and i played in a band with him

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:43 PM

Our club at the Marsden Inn, South Shields was regarded highly in the 60s as a successful FOLK club.
Jim Sharp booked the guests, and we had such eminent traditional performers as Paddy Tunney, Hedy West, Davie Stewart, Willie Scott, Fred Jordan, Bobby Casey and Billy Pigg.
From the 'revival' we booked such as Louis Killen, Matt McGinn, the Clutha, Dominic Behan and yes, MacColl and Seeger, Alex Campbell, Finbar & Eddie Furey & Christy Moore
We also enjoyed visits from Tom Paxton, Stefan Grossmann (a resident for a while) Don Partridge the one-man band, the Jarrow based country trio the 'Three Eddies'(only two were called Eddie!!?) and the local Harton Colliery silver Band.
The residents' included songs & tunes from all the above, but also Bob Dylan, PP & M, Carole King, Joni Mitchell, Ralph McTell & such.
We called it a folk club but never worried about what we did was 'folk' or not, and I think adopting the Stalinist approach from Jim carroll would certainly kill the music sooner rather than later.
Irish performers always thoroughly enjoyed their visit to UK folk clubs- people actually listened!Tim Lyons said Tyneside was his favoutite place to sing & play, and the idea that Ireland is a lost World of music is rubbish.

The music thrives in parts of Ireland but quite frankly as a former Irish resident (20 years) you'll find more good music in Northumberland or Sussex than in most Irish counties.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:06 PM

So, once again, you say one thing and mean another. Your exact phrase was

Dave
You choose to call what yuo do folk - you refuse to respond to teh damage that attitude has done to real folk music

I have already said that there is only one way I can interpret this. I do call what I do folk. You do not it folk and tell me that it is damaging 'real folk music'. "You choose to call what you do folk". That is the phrase you used. Not what I like or what I talk about but what I do. If you meant what I say or think, why did you not say that? You have had ample opportunity to put it right and getting to your actual meaning has been challenging. Not being pedantic or picky here. It is just that on here we only have words to convey our meaning and the choice of words is very important.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:18 PM

"Northumberland or Sussex than in most Irish counties."
You edto get out more Jim
Kids are pouring in at a rate of knots and even the media is sitting up and taking notice
Northumberland is a good place for instrumental music, but friends who live there say it's patchy

"I am not trying to diminish the importance of authentic traditional song, "
A litle partonising I thing - but better than being "tolerated" I suppose
Most peopple did discover folk song via the revaival - I diin't know abybody who didn't apart from the traditional singers we met
Now that that is gone as a reliable source, one wonders where the next generation are going to discover it - if they do
"It is perhaps even harder now for young people to discover true traditional singing except on record"
The problem in a nutshell - what are we arguing about then !
I was never expecting to persuade anybody - but I come away from this totally enlightened as to the state of things, for which, thanks
Sorry Dave - I really can't be bothered to argue if you are going to nit-pick to make me dishonest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:22 PM

Jim Bainbridge wrote:-
"we had such eminent traditional performers as Paddy Tunney, Hedy West, Davie Stewart, Willie Scott, Fred Jordan, Bobby Casey and Billy Pigg.
From the 'revival' we booked such as Louis Killen, Matt McGinn, the Clutha, Dominic Behan and yes, MacColl and Seeger, Alex Campbell, Finbar & Eddie Furey & Christy Moore
We also enjoyed visits from Tom Paxton, Stefan Grossmann (a resident for a while) Don Partridge the one-man band"

Well, that was the sort of mix that I remember from my early days of running folk clubs. In Lewes, I booked 5 of the traditional performers that Jim mentions and quite a few that he doesn't - Jane Turriff, Lizzie Higgins, Belle & Alex etc. and the same range of revivalists as well. And we met a Geordie at the Blairgowrie festival, thought he was good so we booked him as well. He was not known in Sussex back then, but I raved about him to our audience for a few weeks before he came and we ended up with a full house for him. After that we booked him quite often over the next 40 years. His name? Jim Bainbridge.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:52 PM

Howard,

It would appear from your post above that you are under the impression that Jim Carroll attends a UK folk club.

It would appear from his posts that he chooses to live in exile and hasn't set foot in an English folk club for years. But still believes in his own mind that he knows what is going on in them.

The club he mainly attended in London from 1966 I believe was the Singer's Club. If my memory is correct Jim said that it did not call itself a Folk Club, I guess that was because Ewan was more interested in Theatre.

The truth is that there is far more folk material of all descriptions from around the world readily available than EVER in the past. You no longer have to go to a club.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:58 PM

No nit picking in the slightest, Jim.

Version 1. You choose to call what yuo do folk - you refuse to respond to teh damage that attitude has done to real folk music

Version 2. I said hat you advocated damaged folk music

Can you not see that those are 2 entirely different statements? If I had not have pushed you on it version 1 would have stood and people would have been left with the impression that what I do damages folk music. I am just suggesting that it you were more careful in your phrasing we could avoid a lot of misunderstanding and unnecessary discusdion. OK?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 06:29 PM

I disagree with jim bainbridge.
I have just come back from bantry CCE session, run by musicians Tom Sullivan and Mary Tisdall, i had an enjoyable couple of hours.here they are playing on a different occasion with the mcauliffes.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qk9KDYjcRM
Jim Bainbridge is deluding himself if he claims that better music can be found in northumberland and sussex,that isthe sort of silly competitive suff that CCEis often accused of, Iwould say that the instrumental music is no better just differentlikewise the song side , both are good but different, thank god for that if we all played the same way it would be tedious

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 06:37 PM

JIM B , If i was to say there was more good instrumental music in county clare and county kerry and sliabh luchra than there was in every english county other than northumberland what would your reaction be?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:01 AM

Folk song and music is not a competition ~ although I know competitions do exist

Is it not an art form? ~ with or without use of instruments other than the voice

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:55 AM

Well that's the trouble with the whole thread.

Who can be the most pure in heart and fundamentalist?

Okay Jim, you've won.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:56 AM

"If i was to say there was more good instrumental music in county clare and county kerry and sliabh luchra than there was in every english county other than northumberland what would your reaction be?"
In my experience, I have never seen Irish music doing as well as it is doing at present and not just in the Counties you mention
The mass taking up of traditional music, while being patchy in places, seems to be nationwide - I would guess that it's those counties with a history of such muic that is leading the way
I think the major breakthroughs were first, the establishment of a music scool here in Miltown Malbay to honour the Memory of piper, Willie Clancy (now in it's 48th year I think - lost count)and the setting up of the Irish Traditional Music Archive
That has established a foundation based on the Tradition and guaranteed a future for the - yes - art form   
While I agree totally with Ray that it should not be a competition, I certainly believe that Ireland's success is an example to Britain as to what can be done when the musc is taken seriously
We attended a talk given by the Piper, Tommy Keane, on his father-in -law, fellow piper and concertina player, Tom McCarthy a couple of weeks ago
After the talk we listened to the McCarthy Family - children and grandchildren, playing superbly, I have little doubt that it won't be too long before the grandchildren's children will be playing as well
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 05:08 AM

dave swarbrick had to put up with that garbage all his life.

The usual line was,   there are ten year olds in Ireland who play better fiddle than Swarbrick.
Always by people who didn't have a clue about anything.

I remember with fierce joy the occasion when derek Brimstone was talking enthusiastically about a Scottish piper _ ithink, in Five Hand reel. Not my cup of tea...but anyway
What do YOU know about piping, said one of our celtic cousins
More than you, you cunt, said Derek. he'd served his National Service as a drummer in a pipe band.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 05:25 AM

"The usual line was,   there are ten year old in Ireland who play better fiddle than Swarbrick."
There weren't then - there are now Al
One of the great things that has happened is that pupils of ten years ago are now teaching
Bit dismissive to describe it as garbage - you need to listen to standards now
Your description of Brimstone does him no favours
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 05:37 AM

"The usual line was,   there are ten year old in Ireland who play better fiddle than Swarbrick."
There weren't then - there are now Al

There are now Dave Swarbrick is dead.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:08 AM

Sorry Jim, that wasn't meant to be patronising, I was trying to convey that I also regard traditional music as important. But folk clubs have always embraced more than traditional music. My preference is trad, but I have heard plenty of good music in folk clubs which wasn't traditional, and plenty of performances of trad which have bored me rigid.

Where will young people discover folk music, now the clubs have declined? Serendipity, I suppose, just as most of us did. It will usually be a chance encounter with folk that leads people into it. I doubt many people discover folk at a folk club - they come across it elsewhere and that leads them to visit venues putting on folk music to hear more. In our day that meant folk clubs, today there are other options.

Some young people will have been introduced by parents who are folkies, or parents of friends. They have the internet - they use music streaming services which recommend new music based not only on what they have listened to before but what their friends are listening to. There is plenty of folk music on these services so it is quite possible that folk will be among the recommendations. For those who want to seek out the real thing, VOTP is on Spotify.

What they don't seem to be very interested in is sitting in the back room of a dingy old-man's pub with people old enough to be their grandparents, and who can blame them? We wouldn't at their age. They do things their own way, at venues which may or may not be called folk clubs. They go to house concerts and festivals. They are both listening to and performing folk music, and often to very high standards.

Times have changed, and there are other gateways into folk besides folk clubs. But I made this point several hundred posts earlier.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:09 AM

800 - and still no answer to the original question. Is this a Mudcat record ?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: beachcomber
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:36 AM

Aaah, what was your question again ?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:36 AM

"800 - and still no answer to the original question. Is this a Mudcat record ?"
I would have thought that it was clear from the postings that nobody knew how many clubs there were - how could they
The question was vague anyway
The 'Boom lasted for several years during which time many clubs sprang up which had little to do with the actual industry-driven 'boom', but chose instead to start plundering works like The Penguin Book and The Singing Island and taking songs from the BBC collection
These clubs continued to grow long after the industry lost interest - that independant 'boom' continued into the 1980s
Now, it seems, the scene has returned back into the prdatory arms of the media as a measure of success
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:37 AM

Jim Bainbridge wrote:-
the idea that Ireland is a lost World of music is rubbish.
to which another Jim replied:-
You edto get out more Jim
I must admit that the idea that Jim Bainbridge needs to get out more (if that was what was intended in what I have quoted) made me smile. I have known him well since the 1960s and if I asked to award first prize for INCURABLE SESSION JUNKIE amongst all the hundreds of people that I have met through this music, there is little doubt that the first name to come into my mind would be that of Jim Bainbridge. I have played with him in sessions in four countries and although I go to many sessions and folk clubs I believe that this number is dwarfed by the number that Jim must have attended. Jim Bainbridge would find it difficult to get out more than he does.
However, this set me thinking, Jim Bainbridge implies that the spread of traditional music in Ireland is patchy - and he has lived all over Ireland, so that is an opinion that I respect... but still an opinion. Another opinion.... but still only an opinion, come from the other Jim and is that traditional music is now widespread and thriving all over the island.
I have recently returned from a month in the Gambia where I have been going every year now since 1997 and one of my purposes when I am there is to find and record the traditional music of Manding jalis. Experience has taught me not to go to the capital, Banjul, or the largest town, Serrekunda, or the north bank ferry town of Barra because I won't find jalis there; I would have much more success in Bansang, in Kembujae and particularly Brikama. If I go food shopping in the bustling, crowded Brikama market with my best Gambian friend, Jali Sheriffo Konteh, the chances are that we will bump into another jali that I have not met before and another contact is made. My impression, like that of Jim B. in Ireland is that the spread of jali traditional music in the Gambia is patchy though still thriving.... but again this is only an opinion.
What we need is some research that produces supportable facts. Now I need help here. Somewhere on the internet, I have seen a scatter graph map of the British Isles that plots the geographical location of every informant of the Victorian/Edwardian collectors - mainly using the Roud Index as a source. I wish I had downloaded it at the time because now I cannot find it and would welcome links from anyone who can locate it. Of course, it is only a retrospective version and it does raise questions; what about the Travellers? Did the collectors cover the counties methodically? Still, it did throw up some fascinating results. Huge concentrations - Aberdeenshire, Perthshire, East Anglia, Herefordshire, Sussex, Somerset as well as large areas that seemed to be traditional song deserts. Many more were located in the south of England than the north. Why were there more than 10 times as many names from Sussex as from Surrey and Kent combined? Are that three neighbouring counties that different? This would seem to be as factual as we are likely to get and it suggests that the spread of traditional music was patchy, particularly in England.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:53 AM

Howard
Sorry if I took you wrong
The word 'important' is often used to suggest a crusade to 'save' folksong for posterity rather than to enjoy it for what it basically is - a superb form of entertainment that we can all participate in (with a bit of work and thought)
Some clubs went for all kinds of songs (often referred to as 'Singing Horse clubs after the overused joke by a bluesman) - not all of them by any means
There were enough to choose, but the choice lay between the real stuff and the Zimmerman snigger-snogwriter wannabes - not the Victorian parlour ballad or early pop song stuff, or even the music hall stuff - that came later.
Topic was a good rule of thumd to gauge what was happening in the non navel-gazing side of the scene - when it did music hall stiff it did so as a separate issue (there are exceptions, of course)
"old man's stuff" - I'd care if my objective was to put bums on seats
Mixing in folk song with what appears to be happening now if not going to attract a single individual to folk music - why on earth should it
If you are going to call everything you do as folk song you are going to reduce those of us who involve ourselves in the real thing as a bunch of geriatric eccentrics - stuff that, thank you very much
The answer for me is an easy one - if you don't want to perform folk songs go and do your thing elsewhere under another name, you really have done enough damage (possibly irreparable as far as the next generation goes) as it is
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM

"made me smile. "
Anybody who describes the Irsh music scene as he did most certainly dos Vic - smile away
He may have lived in one of the dead spots but that fact that I can turn the radio on any night of the week and find good quality traditional music - often recorded sessions - seven nights of the week, says what needs saying
The music isn't "still thriving" - it nearly dies and is now soaring and will be for a generation or so
I'm afraid my view on Jim's take on the tradition is somewhat coloured by his summing up of the ballads (the "Muckle Sangs" according to Hamish Henderson) as "inappropriate"
Maybe we have different views on what the tradition is
I find it rather sad that people from a traditional scene which is in trouble should attempt to shoot down another which filling up with enthusiastic newcomers
Neither gracious nor helpful
(hope I managed to avoid typos in that Vic)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM

Anybody who describes the Irsh music scene as he did most certainly dos
Well... and only since you are asking.... there are two in your first sentence.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 10:28 AM

Didn't expect anything more Vic - certainly not a response
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 10:36 AM

"Mixing in folk song with what appears to be happening now if not going to attract a single individual to folk music - why on earth should it?"

But then, why on earth shouldn't it? It didn't seem to put people off during the boom years, when (as others besides me have pointed out) the clubs presented a broader interpretation of "folk" than purely traditional. "What appears to be happening now" is nothing new. How many people in the 60s discovered traditional music from first listening to Bob Dylan and then exploring other aspects of folk? How many people familiar with Simon and Garfunkle's "Scarborough Fair" may then have siscovered Martin Carthy's version?

Someone hearing "Fairytale of New York" on the radio might look on Spotify for the Pogues, which might then introduce them to Oysterband, which might lead to their version of "Our Captain Cried All Hands" with June Tabor, which might then lead straight to Pop Maynard's version from VoTP - they're all on Spotify. It's easier than ever before to discover new music and follow connections, and young people are far more open-minded - if they like something they're not concerned with whatever label has been put on it.

You continue to assert that a broad interpretation of "folk" is both new and damaging, without providing any evidence that it is actually putting off young people. When festivals like Shrewsbury and Towersey, which attract sizeable young audiences, sell out rapidly I don't think this can be true.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 11:07 AM

Jim Carroll wrote
Didn't expect anything more Vic - certainly not a response

Good, then we understand one another. Unlike others on this thread, I will never allow myself to submit myself to your self-imposed role as interrogator here.

I thoroughly disprove of Mudcat's allowance of unnamed GUEST posting here - and have objected to this several times - because they are sometimes mischief-making and the source of insults. In fact the GUEST who posted at 12 Mar 19 - 05:36 AM was verging on the insulting in his pithy description of you. However he does ask a vital question when he writes He talks about "judgements"; are all the other participants in this thread happy to accept the didactic pronouncements of the...three words that I would rather not quote... as the sole arbiter of "what is suitable to be called folk"?

The answer from me to that question is a resounding "NO".

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 11:11 AM

Nothing wrong with a bit of an interrogation, Vic, but no one expects the Spanish Inquisition :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 11:38 AM

The Spanish Inquisition

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 11:39 AM

"I will never allow myself to submit myself to your self-imposed role as interrogator here."
Others seem happy to consider it lively discussion Vic
". as the sole arbiter of "what is suitable to be called folk"? "
Are you seriously suggesting taht what I am arguing has peen solely my view Vic
I have given sources and quotes for every single claim I have made - people regularly refer to my arguments as 'mine' but they most certainly are not
IF that's your attitude maybe it's just as well we don't wish to talk to each other - I certainly have no wish to take this any further
Out as far as this revealing incident is concerned
"But then, why on earth shouldn't it?"
Because it never has Howard - erzatz folk only attracts an interest in erzatz folk - god knows what the present stuff attracts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:18 PM

Jim again -
"as the sole arbiter of "what is suitable to be called folk"? "
Are you seriously suggesting taht what I am arguing has peen solely my view Vic

I am suggesting nothing. It should be clear from reading the post and the fact that these words are in italics that this is a quotation. If you want an answer to this then you must direct your question to the person who wrote it; in this case unnamed GUEST 12 Mar 19 - 05:36 AM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:29 PM

"I am suggesting nothing. "
"However he does ask a vital question when he writes "
Not suggesting anything - then why put up the quote as " vital question" Vic - especially when you are not prepared to back it up with argument?
This argument may have been vigorous, intense and even personal on occasion (not from me) bt it has never been nasty - until now
Forget it
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:31 PM

Let me explain Jim.

To be a decent (not inspired) just competent folk guitarist you must work diligently at your craft for at least ten years (Paul Downes reckoned, and I think it was a conservative estimate).

I very much doubt that playing the violin is much easier.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM

bt it has never been nasty - until now

No? Not even when you made an insulting comment on 7th February which I objected to a day later and then the mods removed both your insult and my objection as it made no sense for it to remain as yours had been removed?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:58 PM

I must apologise - the date of your post was the 17th February not the 7th.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 02:04 PM

"I very much doubt that playing the violin is much easier."
I've no idea Al -I don't play either neither do I care too much - as someone ahas alreafdy said, folk music is an Art, it doesn't need to be a competition
I do know the incredible skill that goes into playing these instruments - especially by young people, is worthy of a little more than the begrudgery that has been shown here
Hardy encouraging for those making the effort

Vic whatever I said I said, it's no excuse for your behavior here
Up to now the discussion has been fairly civilised - I've come to accept 'folk police' and 'purist as par for the course
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 02:30 PM

By the way Vic - I find no trace of my 17th February posting but I can only assume it was in response to your:
"How someone thinks that improvement can be brought by persistent repetitive and badly-researched negativity is beyond me"
Personally, I find that extremely personally insulting when being aimed at someone who has spent half a century of singing, organising and researching the subject we are discussing
ou got as good as you have, it seems to me, the difference being that I didn't feel the need to run to sir as you did
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 02:33 PM

jim carroll quote"The usual line was,   there are ten year old in Ireland who play better fiddle than Swarbrick."
There weren't then - there are now Al
THIS IS AN OVER SIMPLIFICATION , VERY FEW 10 YEAR OLD FIDDLERS CAN ACCOMP0ANY SONGS AS WELL AS DAVE SWARBRICK. YOU SEE IT DEPENDS ON THE ASPECT OF FIDDLE PLAYING THAT IS BEING DISCUSSED.
personally i have not seen 10 year old fiddlers who are better than Dave, there are some very good teenage fiddlers, but while thay may be technicaly excellent and good at,l but it is akin to comparing apples and oranges
dave swarbrick played trad music other than irish and plyed it well, but he had skills that they did not possess.
Some body once said to me you are not as good as noel hill, what a stupid remark, i may not play reels as well as noel but he cannot accompany songs as well as me, we are different we play different systems of concertina, remarks like that just show how ignorant some people are , this music is not a competition, variety is what it is about

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 03:25 PM

Sandman/Dick-
             Like yourself, I was in West Cork in the 90s and as you well know, there was such a dearth of musicians to entertain the tourists that they had to employ a blow-in Geordie to do it!
What music there was came mainly from other English immigrants, largely with a background in English (mainly southern) folk clubs.

Seems things are a bit better now, but I do not believe that it is any more than patchy ANYWHERE in Ireland- I suspect the multiple TVs have driven the music out of most of the pubs, although there is certainly a decent scene in the homes of Ireland- which is where it all started after all!
Of course it's patchy in Northumberland and Sussex too- it's still a minority activity, as in Ireland, although nowhere in England suffers from the ghastly musical depths of the Irish Country scene!

Music in some parts of England thrives despite the almost total lack of support from the authorities in England, in contrast to the CCE/State support in Ireland.

Thanks for the kind words Vic, your club was always a second home to me, along with a few others & you & Tina deserve a lot of credit for the way you ran it for all those years....

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 03:30 PM

You are digging yourself a hole, Jim.

* You cannot find your 17th February post because it was deleted by the moderators and in that case all reference to it on Mudcat goes.

* By posting "ou got as good as you have, it seems to me, the difference being that I didn't feel the need to run to sir as you did" you are assuming that the insult was against me. It wasn't. You were being rude about another person, though I don't suppose that you remember who it was - but I do. Neither is the first time that this has happened. Previously you made extremely defamatory remarks about a friend of mine, Bryan Creer (The Snail), a person you have never even met. As in this case I objected not on personal grounds but because I found the comment unpleasant, untrue and unnecessary. Again both the insult and my objection to it were removed and in that case a warning to close the thread was issued.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM

last guest was me- sorry...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:43 PM

Well, it doesn't say it but the post at 15 Mar 19 - 03:25 PM must be from Jim Bainbridge. There are a few things that I would like to add to it.
Jim B wrote. -
I was in West Cork in the 90s and as you well know, there was such a dearth of musicians to entertain the tourists that they had to employ a blow-in Geordie to do it!
What music there was came mainly from other English immigrants, largely with a background in English (mainly southern) folk clubs.
Tina and I visited you in Durras a few times in those years. You were going to take us to a session one night. You said "Would you like to go the Dutch Irish session or the English Irish session?" I thought it was a joke until we ended up in Ballydehob (memory suggests that the pub was called Rosie McCanns?) and I found that was true - the participants were English immigrants.
Jim again -
Seems things are a bit better now, but I do not believe that it is any more than patchy ANYWHERE in Ireland- I suspect the multiple TVs have driven the music out of most of the pubs, although there is certainly a decent scene in the homes of Ireland- which is where it all started after all!
Big Screen football TVs are just part of the problem. What were once clubrooms that organisations could hire have become restaurants but landlords who reckon that they can make more from food than they can from drink. Either that or the cost of hiring the room has made it prohibitive for hand to mouth folk clubs. Pub closures in England are currently running at 40 per week. We have lost three in recent years in Lewes but there are still five that feature sessions on a weekly or monthly basis. We have sessions in our kitchen which can comfortably sit 15 and we go to singarounds in other peoples' houses. Lots of activity but all below the radar.
You also ran a folk club in Schull (memory tells me that it was called "The Courtyard"?) and you booked Tina and I there. I remember looking through the guest list leaflet and seeing that the three previous guests had been mutual Scots mates that we had heard at TMSA festivals. Didn't say much for the local talent.
Also in Schull you took us to a session that you led with an English guitarist (Patrick Forester?) and the pub was heaving and we could hardly get in. What had happened was that your guitarist had been working away one week and you had asked another locally based guitarist to deputise - a man called Christy Moore. The word had got around and the possibilty that the great man might be there the following week had packed the pub out.
Jim -
Of course it's patchy in Northumberland and Sussex too- it's still a minority activity, as in Ireland.
It always was and it always will be. It doesn't make it any less enjoyable though. A night of good music - session, singaround, folk club, concert gives an incredible lift.
______________________________________
Finally, a short funny story. After we left you in Cork one year, we went to Clare and ended up in Miltown Malbay. We went into an attractive gift shop and were looking around. The only other customers in the shop were an older American couple. It was in the week leading up to their "Darling Girl Of Clare" festival. A local woman came in, not to buy but to have a chat to the shop assistant. There was a gap in the conversation and then the visitor looked around the shop.
Visitor - "Well, are ye all ready for your 'Darling Girl'?"
Shop Assistant - "On don't be talking! I haven't got over my 'Willie Week' yet."
The Americans opened their eyes wide and looked at one another. I think they were wondering what they has stumbled on.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:49 PM

"You are digging yourself a hole, Jim."!
Not me Vic
I've d given you what kicked off our argument - Bryan's name doesn't even appear on the list here - you never mentioned his posting being deleted and I certainly would never have made an extremely abusive comment to someone who isn't part of the discussion - I find behaviour like that offensive and have commented on it often enough when others have done it
You were offensive then as you have been again here
It's always been my experience that those who abuse are usually the first ones go go running to the headmaster
I tried to put an end to this and you continue it
I am not going to continue with this - feel free to do so - I've had enough of it
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:10 PM

Dave and Vic, your Spanish Inquisition brought this to mind. It's somewhat over the top, but quite amusing:

Click

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:30 PM

The thing is Jim - this attitude you have - believe me is not confined to folk music.

Its a sort of naively quantitative view of things. The more notes you hit cleanly, the faster you play...

i think maybe the Suzuki method started it in Japan. Fifty kids in a room all learning ... something or other.

There are guitar institutes churning out heavy metal, jazz guitarists..god alone knows what else. But they all have twelve-year-old prodigies boring the arse off anyone unfortunate enough to get trapped into listening.

Its all over the world and basically it stinks. Of course you say, very good, wonderful! Cos they're kids and proud parents and its nice to be nice.

But privately I wonder which lunatic thought this mad scenario up. Basically I think its just another aspect of that hydra headed monster - the music business. Someone's making a dollar in there somewhere.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 03:44 AM

I think you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick, Jim. Vic was talking about 2 separate incidents and you have conflated them into one. Not being insulting, patronising or any other ing here, just trying to help. These discussions would go much more smoothly if we were all to read what was actually said and focus on what the point really is.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM

"I think you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick, Jim. V"Isn't that alqways the case Dave ?
I've finished with that unpleasant attitude - I'm sorry you wish to continue with it
I read what has been said and attempt to reply to them - pity others don't do the same
Have no Idea where Suzuki guitars fit in with what is essentially an unaccompanied art
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:32 AM

Once again a response totally out of step with the point raised. Sorry, Jim. I really do like most of our conversations but I have come to the point where I have realised that we are often speaking a different language. Now, as discussion is a two way thing, I know part of that must be down to me but as I understand what most others mean and most others get the real gist of what I say, I think it is fair for you to shoulder some of the responsibility. Try reading others posts more carefully before shooting from the hip.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM

We are speaking in different languages when it comes to folk song Dave
As far as this unpleasant incident is concerned, I have deliberately chosen to leave it behind in order to keep what discussion we have alive
These threads have a nasty habit of being closed when they get personal - quite rightly
I was serious when I said otheres haven't addressed my points - I gave a list a long time ago of what I believe distinguises folk song proper from much of the stuff you and others argues can claim the description 'folk'
Can you honesly say there has been a response to this fundamental question (other than "people regard folk differently now") has been responded to - if so, where
Where does that leave the genuine 'Voice of the People' ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:44 AM

It would be gratifying if somebody at least attempted to show how my list was inaccurate
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM

Humour me, Jim. Give us the list again or at least a link to where it is and I will respond. But do bear in mind what I have already pointed out. There are two types of music that I would welcome in any folk club. One is traditional folk music and the other is contemporary music in the folk idiom. The first is unquestionably set in stone. It is the latter that is disputed. We are not arguing about what is traditional folk and I am sure that your list defines that very well. We are discussing what defines the folk idiom in contemporary music. That is, I believe, subjective and cannot be categorised by a simple set of conditions.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM

I suppose there is a third set - traditional folk played in a contemporary fashion such as folk rock. But as we are not likely to get the likes of Steeleye Span down at the local folk club can we discount that? We are, after all, discussing folk clubs here.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:33 AM

"There are two types of music that I would welcome in any folk club. One is traditional folk music and the other is contemporary music in the folk idiom."
My argument from day one Dave - I've goven myself typist's cramp repeating it
The problem is your interpretation of what constitutes 'the folk idiom'
Our folk songs are basically word dominated, narrative communications of ideas and emotions - accompaniment, where it occurs (which is hardly ever in the case of British singing) is secondary to the narrative
The characters in the songs are identifiable people, usually with occupations and individuality, not the identityless ciphers of pop songs
They have problems and situations we can all identify with, which is why our folk songs have lasted as long as they have
Structurally they ar four or eight line versified, they may have choruses but they hardly ever repeat phrases other than as a plot device - unlike the endless and usually mindless over and over repetition   
That, in my opinion, is 'the folk idiom'
How the hell does your Ed Sheeran or The kinks... or much of what passes fro 'contemporary folk" fit into any of that
The original list is on another thread I think - I'll dig it out if you insist, but I can assure you, you have not responded to it despite my requesting you to do so several times
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:34 AM

There is excellent book entitled 'Idiom of the People' by James Reeves, which gives some superb examples of what I have described
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:13 AM

not the identityless ciphers of pop songs
I don't listen to pop, but hearit all around. That is nonsense.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM

Thanks Jim. We are back on track and almost in agreement about what we are discussing. Discount traditional folk, which is taken as read. Discount folk rock, as that is not played in folk clubs and we are left with the only discussion point being contemporary songs in the folk idiom. Which is what I said. I do however disagree with your statement "The problem is your interpretation of what constitutes 'the folk idiom'". That is not the problem. The problem is that our interpretations of what constitutes 'the folk idiom' differ.

But let's leave that for now and go to your points made about what a song in the folk idiom comprises of. These are :-

1. word dominated, narrative communications of ideas and emotions
2. accompaniment, where it occurs is secondary to the narrative
3. The characters in the songs are identifiable people, usually with occupations and individuality
4. They have problems and situations we can all identify with
5. Structurally they ar four or eight line versified, they may have choruses but they hardly ever repeat phrases other than as a plot device

Before I begin to address these I want to make sure that you are saying that if a song (not the singer or the performance) contains these elements, it is in the folk idiom. What about the melodic structure? Should we discount this and, if not, other than it sounds folky, how do we define that?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:45 AM

"(not the singer or the performance) "
Nope - not saying anything of the sort Dave
A singer needs sto sing a narrative song alternatively in order for it to do its job and communicate - you can't have one without t' other - that's what the audences came to listen to
Anyone can sing a folk song pop style, or put an orchestral accomaniment to it, or sing it like Dame Nellie Melba - once they do any of these things it becomes something else
That's what Rod Stewart did with 'Wild Mountain Thyme' or Shirley Ellis did all those years ago with 'Rubber Dolly'
They become something else   
THere's nothing wroong with any of that until you startd describing it as 'folk'
The melody is there to carry the words in our traditions
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:55 AM

Best description I know of folk tunes - "the canvas on which the singer paints his/her songs"
Works for me
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:02 AM

and some of us prefer colours other than rustic sepia

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM

Ok. Got that, Jim. The performance is as important as the song. I can go with that. So, in addition to your other points, the song has to be sung in a folky way to be considered in the folk idiom. Yes?

I am not sure what point you are making about the singer though. I agree fully that Rod Stewart's recording of Wild Mountain Time does not pass the test but what if he were to sing it unaccompanied in a folk club? Not likely I know but I am trying to establish if who is singing has a bearing rather than how they are singing it.

The other question I asked is does the melody come into it and, if so, how do we measure that?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:27 AM

"and some of us prefer colours other than rustic sepia"
Nobody says you have to like folk song Al
About time a few more people admitted that they don't - thanks for that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:38 AM

I'm trying to stick to the thread heading & there's little doubt the British folk club boom was very valuable in Britain, but also a catalyst to the Irish traditional scene, which was seriously struggling at the time.
There were few Northumbrian pipers in that county in the 60s and likewise few uilleann pipers in Ireland, but the numbers are FAR higher now- their quality is a matter of opinion, of course.

During a spell working in Newcastle around 1960, Luke Kelly attended the local folk club & was amazed to find these foreign singers' repertoire included songs his own family had. This gave him new respect for the songs, and he never looked back!

I remember Christy Moore being delighted to find Ted Poole of Swindon staying with us in West Cork - his words- 'Jasus, you two were the only ones who would book me in those days'....
So the 'boom' has had lasting effect on both sides of the Irish Sea, but maybe its day has now gone?
In Britain in the 60s, the rarity of a new Topic/Folkways LP was a major event, not to mention the legendary Caedmon series. Via the clubs, we all had the chance to meet such as Davie Stewart and Paddy Tunney, and to learn they were not just a disembodied voice on a piece of vinyl, but real people with a real story to tell, often illustrated by songs and stories.
I never met Sam Larner or Harry Cox, but have little doubt they were the same- Rod Stradling's great work is in preserving the material of fine singers like Daisy Chapman and the recordings of Keith Summers. BUT, I would always contend that this is a live music, with recordings a poor second to that and modern interpreters of the old songs lack the validity and background of someone like Fred Jordan. Maybe that's why Rod's excellent productions don't sell well?

   No disrespect to younger singers, but whatever their quality as judged by the objective observer/listener, the way in which the old songs were only a part of an individual lifestyle (fishing, farming, busking whatever) is lost for ever. Rod knows this, but even the comprehensive and informative accompanying leaflets do not bridge the gap.

Mention of all these youngsters playing & singing in Ireland- I know it's true in terms of numbers, but as Big Al more or less says- 'numbers don't equal quality' - technically skilled groups of people playing fast & furious stuff has nothing to do with folk or traditional music, nor does an Irish Gaelic name add any validity. I'd run a mile to escape groups like 'BOGEI' 'FAECSE' or whatever- this is all commercial hype, and I'd much rather listen to the Kinks- IMHO it's about COMMUNICATION and the KINKS got much nearer to that than all this alleged traditional stuff....

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:49 AM

So, Jim, in addition to your original points that I repeated 16 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM we need to add they way the song is performed. Is that right?

I want to make sure I fully understand what measures you are setting to define the folk idiom before I respond. We have had enough misunderstandings already. I

I would appreciate your views on how we decide if the melody is folky enough as well.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:51 AM

"I'm trying to stick to the thread heading & there's little doubt the British folk club boom was very valuable in Britain, but also a catalyst to the Irish traditional scene, which was seriously struggling at the time."
When the revival came on the scene Ireland still had a thriving tradition - musicians like Willie Clancy, Bobby Casey... and singers like Joe Heaney, Paddy Tunney.... and many many others
The Willie Clancy Summer School was built on living traditional singers and musicians and Tom Munnelly was turning in thousands of songs from living traditional singers - Tom was regarded as the most prolific collector in Europe in his lifetime
Ireland didn't need a revival - it still had the real thing so they created a situation where youngsters could learn from it
They had their 'Folk Boom period, which came and went, allowing the real lovers of tradition to get back to the real thing
The fact that they built a foundation on that 'real thing' has guaranteed a future for the Irish tradition, which is more than can be said for England
As has been amply demonstrated here, England has abandoned its tradition and replaced it with something with a short shelf life
What world do yuo occupy Jim
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:09 AM

And some of us think your idea of folksong is mistaken. And maybe it's about time you admitted that it is a point of view we're entitled to.

so please stop telling us that the music we have loved all our lives isn't folk music.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:27 AM

So, to be in the folk idiom a song must meet the following criteria :-

1. word dominated, narrative communications of ideas and emotions
2. accompaniment, where it occurs is secondary to the narrative
3. The characters in the songs are identifiable people, usually with occupations and individuality
4. They have problems and situations we can all identify with
5. Structurally they ar four or eight line versified, they may have choruses but they hardly ever repeat phrases other than as a plot device
6. Performed in a traditional "fo!ky" style

No mention as yet of the melody.

Is this correct? If not, what have I got wrong?

Sorry to keep labouring this but I do want to make sure I fully understand what you believe to be in the folk idiom before I respond.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:58 AM

"No mention as yet of the melody."

Sorry - I could have sworn I wrote
The melody is there to carry the words in our traditions
est description I know of folk tunes - "the canvas on which the singer paints his/her songs"
Works for me
Keep up Dave - I thought I was the one who didn't read what people said

"must meet the following criteria"
There's no rule Dave - that's how our songs in the folk idiom are structured - nothing to do with definition
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 09:00 AM

"And some of us think your idea of folksong is mistaken"
Once again - not mine Al
Folk song is far too well documented to need my imput
If you have an alternative explanation you have to put it - your problem is nobody can agree on another - or hasn't so far
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 09:34 AM

Alan lomax described jessie james as an american folk song, the song was written by billy gashade, does that make it a contemporary folk song, he calls the bookthe penguin book of american folk songs, check mate, jim. or are you more of an authority tahn alan lomax

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 10:43 AM

""
It depe4nds on the process the song went through Dick
I know of several 'Jesse James's, which indicates it went through some sort of absorption into the tradition
You might say the same of 'The Wreck of the Old 97, which was claimed by two songwriters and which brought about the first legal fight over a folksong
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:12 AM

Incidentally Dick
If you care to read Lomax's note to Jesse James, he says that it was written by an "anonymous poet"
The verse says it was made by Billy Glashade, but that doesn't mean it was - American singers tended to end their songs with a last verse saying "This song was made, written, or sung" by... whoever
Lomax's "anonymous"attribution indicates this
Stop trying to score points if you haven't done the backup work - it always ends in tears
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:14 AM

Jim, several days ago, when Steve Graham referred to Lankum, you posted that they were totally unrepresentative of what was happening in Ireland. You may be interested in the following quote from an article about the band:

"Another source that the band find themselves coming back to repeatedly is the collection From Puck to Appleby. First released in 2003, it contains a unique collection of songs from Irish Travellers living around London from the 1970s onwards, recorded by Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie.

Because Lankum sing a range of songs from the Traveller repertoire, in particular those by Mary Delaney, the treatment of Travellers in Irish society weighs on them. ‘We sing a number of songs that we got from Traveller singers’, says Peat, ‘and it’s very jarring and difficult to know that and see how the Travelling community is treated'."

It came from here:

Click

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM

Ok. If I have this right, to be a contemporary song in the folk idiom, it needs to pass the following tests

1. word dominated, narrative communications of ideas and emotions
2. accompaniment, where it occurs is secondary to the narrative
3. The characters in the songs are identifiable people, usually with occupations and individuality
4. They have problems and situations we can all identify with
5. Structurally they ar four or eight line versified, they may have choruses but they hardly ever repeat phrases other than as a plot device
6. Performed in a traditional "folky" style
7. The melody is irrelevant. It is just there to carry the words.

Just to confirm I am making no false assumptions, do I have that right? If so, I am happy with that and am more than prepared to explain, in those terms, some songs that I would class as the folk idiom that you may not. Can you confirm I do have it right though before I go down that route please?

One thing does strike me in the meanwhile, if the melody is irrelevant, can any tune (not song, tune) played in a folky style on traditional instruments be classed as in the folk idiom? The previously mentioned Tune for a found harmonium played by Sharon Shannon and band for instance.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:17 AM

My apologies, my previous post should have read 'Steve Gardham'. I thought I had that correct.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM

Stewie
I have no argument with where Lankum got their songs from, nor does it bother me how they sing them - that's their choice
The don't sing their songs in any folk style I am aware of which , in my opinion, makes them unrepresentative of what is happening
They are nice people, but not to my taste as singers - sorry

"it needs to pass the following tests"
I'm really not going to respond to you if you couch your postings in such language Dave - these are observations - not fifth form exams
Nor did I say the maelody was irrelevant any more that a canvas is irrelevant to a painting in my art analogy
The melody is very relevant - it's there to carry the song
I wish you'd stop using 'folky' - it has connotations and is not what I said - 'folk style' will do nicely
Folky leaves me with the impression of flowery frocks
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:58 AM

"That's what Rod Stewart did with 'Wild Mountain Thyme' or Shirley Ellis did all those years ago with 'Rubber Dolly'"

Jim does this "Rubber Dolly" use the tune of "Back up and Push" which comes from one part of a ragtime Piano piece called "Creole Belles" written by J. Bodewalt Lampe ?

If so do you consider it folk? Mississippi John Hurt was one singer that used to use this melody.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 12:42 PM

The 'Rubber Dolly' Shirley Ellis sang was taken from one of Lomax's recordings of back kid's singing games so it certainly started life as a traditional song (can be heard on one of the Lomax CDs
The way Shirley Ellis sang it certainly didn't echo its origins but it was one heralded as a sign that folk had come into its own
im

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 01:55 PM

Jim C, you really need to leave your dream world occasionally and accept that very occasionally you could be (heaven forbid) plain WRONG.
The Irish tradition was in as much trouble as the various British ones in the 60s.

It was recognised by RTE as well as the BBC or why, soon after the 'emergency' was Seamus Ennis given 'a rusty bicycle and a penny jotter'(his words) & told to head west & record what he could 'before the next wave from across the Atlantic washes it all away' (again his words). He visited Drumkeeran in Leitrim in 1948 and recorded 'Lacky' Gallagher's wonderful fiddle playing- now available in CD formfrom johnmckenna.ie, incidentally
Talk to the Mulligans of Leitrim about the state of piping in Ireland before the Pipers club was established in 1968- it was pretty desperate!
   At the time of the folk boom local communities in Ireland still had musical links to the past via such as Paddy Tunney and Willie Clancy, but that was also true of Scan Tester in Sussex and Billy Pigg in Northumberland- they both pre-date the 'folk boom'by many years.
I did expect a lost world of music on my first trip to Ireland in 1964, but my first 'ballad session' soon dispelled that idea! No wonder Luke Kelly was so impressed by the Newcastle folk club. Or maybe he & Christy are excluded from your list of acceptable musicians?
The music was also still there in Doolin- it was a community then and don't tell me today's Doolin is anything but commercially driven.- if the Russells were alive today, they'd be
be turning in their grave- I can think of no such blatant abuse of the tradition anywhere in Britain!
This is not a competition, I have great respect for many in the Irish music movement, but I have already pointed out some ways in which the British folk boom influenced Irish singers & musicians,and you don't accept ANY of the argument? I think that Irish people do not generally share your blinkered views except the few who would never admit that anything good ever came from Britain.

incidentally, with all its merits, the Willie Clancy week is in its 47th year- by the first festival (1973?) there were dozens, maybe hundreds of thriving folk clubs and several festivals with ten years behind them.....

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 02:47 PM

"it needs to pass the following tests"
I'm really not going to respond to you if you couch your postings in such language Dave - these are observations - not fifth form exams
Nor did I say the maelody was irrelevant any more that a canvas is irrelevant to a painting in my art analogy
The melody is very relevant - it's there to carry the song
I wish you'd stop using 'folky' - it has connotations and is not what I said - 'folk style' will do nicely
Folky leaves me with the impression of flowery frocks

I am happy to accept all of that, Jim. But I cannot respond to your points unless you tell us exactly what your points are. If my analysis is wrong, tell us just what your points are, else stop complaining that we are not responding.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 03:58 PM

"The Irish tradition was in as much trouble as the various British ones in the 60s."

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:10 PM

???

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:14 PM

""The Irish tradition was in as much trouble as the various British ones in the 60s."
No it wasn't Jim - it was exaqctly as I described
I damn well should know - we are still collecting songs in clare from singers wityh large repertoire - we had far more up to the 1990s but they're gone now
We were still collecting msongs right up to 2008
AS I said, Ireland didn't need a revival - it had the real thing to draw from - you have some of the list
Reg hall was collecting superb Irish music in London before the revival started in the early 1950s and continued to do so to the end of the century
Topic were putting out dozens of albums of supern living Irish siners and musicians
You begrudgery is typical of some of the mean-mindedness that naused you the revival
I can't believe anybody would try to talk down the incredible music played by youngsters in Ireland
The few English musicians left alive were just that - a very few
There were probably more great Irish musicians in London than there were English ones throughout the rest of Britain
The fact is taht Irish song and music is soaring while what is left of the English clubs are dying - how is Birtley doing nowadays ?
Unbelievable !!
We'll probably go out to listen to some music tonight - teh problem being that we have to choose from three sessions - Jackie Daly is playing in one and Tom McCarthy's daughter and her husband in the other
Want to name me one one-street town that's happening in the near future
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:05 PM

Reg hall was collecting superb Irish music in London before the revival started in the early 1950s and continued to do so to the end of the century

It might be a good point here to mention Reg Hall's encyclopedic study of Irish Music in London, A Few Tunes of Good Music which, amazingly, is available as a free download for all forms of e-reader. It can be downloaded by clicking here.
It is a mighty and hugeelu important read written after decades to total involvement and detailed research on The London Irish music scene - compulsory reading in my opinion.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 03:29 AM

Excellent study
Many of the examples of his recordings covered in this important work can be heard on the Topic continuing series, 'The Voice of the People'; 'It Was Mighty' (3 cds) and 'It Was Great Altogether' (3 cds) - the previous generation of London Irish music at its very best
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM

So, Jim, if the melody does matter, tell us how you decide if it is a suitable melody for a song in the folk idiom of not. Surely it cannot be by the "if it sounds like a folk song" method because, as we have proved in the last few hundred posts, what sounds like a folk song to some does not to others.

Just re-reading your reply of to me

I'm really not going to respond to you if you couch your postings in such language Dave - these are observations - not fifth form exams

You are defining what the folk idiom is. That is more than an observation. If you expect me to respond, I do need to be absolutely clear what your points are. As we have just shown with the point about the melody. Make clear what you are asking or stop complaining that I have not answered.

I wish you'd stop using 'folky' - it has connotations and is not what I said - 'folk style' will do nicely

No. Sorry. Folky is fine and has no such connotations as far as I am concerned.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:54 AM

the willie clancy week started in 1973,CCE was formed in 1951, for 22 years before willie clancy week, CCE WAS RESPONSIBLEFOR THE PROMOTION OF IRISH TRAD MUSIC, THE FLEADHS WERE WELL ATTENDED AND DESPITE THE COMPETITIVE FAULTS OF CCE,CCE were responsible for the growth and interest of trad irish music before willie clancy week was formed.
Jim Carroll lives in clare, which is without a doubt the strongest county for trad music kerry is also strong,north cork strong, west cork is middling and some of the other counties particulasrly in the midlands prefer country music.
jim c is genralising from the particular, irish trad music is not soaring it is strong in places and weak in others, in clare, kerry sliabh luchra, it is strong in dublin it is to some extent tourist orientated and commercialised[ does that make it strong , that is arguable] in at least half the counties country music is preferred, trad music and unaccompanied singing is tolerated because the tourists like it, that is a sad fact but perhaps it is better than it not being there at all

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 05:43 AM

Not replying to the begrudgers any more Dick - Ireland has done what those who are knocking it have failed miserably to do - guarantee a future based on performance and respect for traditional music
That's enough for me
Goes to prove that no matter how well you do, there's always someone on the sidelines telling you you it's not good enough
CCE destroyed more interest in traditional music with their 'competition' agenda than they won supporters - competitions are for winners
Music researcher, Brendan Breathnach summed CCE up perfectly - "An organisation with a great future behind it"

Since the Clancy School has been mentioned,   John Tunney is doing one of the talks this year;
"Sing Us Another Story", The Transmission of a local song repertoire across six generations - based on his own family's singing (Father Paddy, Grandmother Brigid, Grand Uncle Michael Gallagher - and other family singers and musicians) - well worth the trip alone
The Breathnach Memorial Lecture is 'The Trees they do be High' - reflections on Tom Munnelly's legacy
The Friday is devoted to singing workshops and recitals

Carry on knocking lads
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM

Jim everyone knows that clare is the strongest place for trad music, but if it was as strong everywhere else would it not be better,here in west cork it is middling, trad songs are poular but generally people want a mix of tunes and songs, in clare and sliabh luchra, trad instrumental musdic is very popular and the standard is very high, unfortunately country and irish is strong in ireland and seems tobe relentleesly gaining in popularity

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 06:18 AM

It's somewhat stupid to expect muusic to be distributed equally anywhere Dick - that wasn't even true of the tradition
Some places had traditional music and song, some places had hardly any
THere are literally thousands of youngsters fairly newly arrived at the music thanks largely to the Willie Clancy Summer School being what it was - a school - many of the pupils of that school are now teaching
Of course some places develop faster than others - when has that not been the case ?
One of the greatest victories has been the smashing of the peer-pressure barrier
Fiddler Kevin Glackin once described how he had to hide his fiddle from his classmates when he was going to a CCE class for fear of being beaten up or having his instrument damaged
Even youngsters who don't play boast they have mates who do
Stop being mean-minded - the music has now been guaranteed a future   
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:53 AM

CCE destroyed more interest in traditional music with their 'competition' agenda than they won supporters - competitions are for winners
Garbage.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM

"Garbage."
I wouldn't say they were that bad Dick - they did their best
Seriously - I saw kids who were forced into joining walk away from the music when they were old enough to make up their own minds
Hopefully some of them will now come back now that the music is freely available for the love of it and without the political agenda and the corruption that went with CCE
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM

"Garbage."
I wouldn't say they were that bad Dick - they did their best
Not quoted from Dick but from GUEST 17 Mar 19 - 08:53 AM.
I am not the first to ask for posts to be read clearly before answering to avoid confusion.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

I auomatically assume that was Dick Miles - an old battlegound
I apoloogise if it wasn't but it is a fact
Go look up the 'Clontarf property-grab' fiasco
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM

By the way - thanks for pointing it out Vic
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM

By the way - thanks for pointing it out Vic
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM

You missed the point again Jim C- I thought I'd made it clear that I am an admirer of much Irish music, and wish it nothing but the best. I have lived quietly in Ireland for 20 years on & off and have many friends among the musicians & singers of Ireland who will tell you I am no 'begrudger'- what nonsense.
You may live in a great place for music, I don't doubt it but Ireland is NOT a lost world of music- it is in isolated areas rather than EVERYWHERE as Bord Failte would have you believe!
You keep telling us about your important work- well you're English, I think, as is is Reg Hall, whose contribution to Irish music has been massive! I cannot compare my own input to that of Reg but As English people, both myself and Dick have also contributed> We're all very much part of that 'boom' & glad we were
All I am saying is that in the 50s & 60s, the music was in a bad way everywhere in these islands, and surviving in isolated places only! o
You simply ignore what is said rather than accept any input from outside- few Irish people would do that- I think I have told you what I think about the boom- it was a very valuable catalyst to the music on both sides of the Irish sea, and to be so blinkered about the state of the music in Ireland in the 50s & 60s is just daft.
as for most young Irish whizzbang groups, you're welcome, i'd rather read a book.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 01:30 PM

2I thought I'd made it clear that I am an admirer of much Irish music, "
I didn't suggest you weren't Jim, I'm sure you are; I'm equally sure you have a distorted picture of the music scene here - I don't just rely on what is ahppening in Clare, where the music has always thrived, but our work takes us to Dublin regularly, where we are given a fuller picture from our contact with The Irish Traditional Music Archive
Actually, the music was not in a bad way in the 50s and 60s - you just had to know where to go to find it
Fra from needing to be inspired by The Folk Boom, which came and went as fast here as it did in England, there were enough musicians and singers around to make it possible to draw on them to build up the extremely healthy scene there is now and create a solid foundation, not based on 'names' but on local players and singers - The Willie Clancy School was the first such venture and shortly afterwards Nicholas Carolan worked to set up The Irish Traditional Music Archive
There was always known to be music and singing in Connemara, Donegal, Kerry, Cork and Clare and the BBC project proved conclusively that other counties still had a fair number of tradition performers to draw on - particularly in the six Northern Counties
Im told by friends that Wexford was fairly righ traditionally
Later County Louth turned out to be a'nest of singing birds'
What was missing was a guarantee that young singers would take over where the older ones left off - sorted beyond doubt now
It's hard to know what you mean by 'poor state' - Ireland didn't have a 'revival' in the same way as Britain had, so there were no clubs to judge by
Irish music, singing and storytelling was strictly a fireside activity, apart from the crossroads dances that were destroyed by the priests - that continued to happen till beyond the mid 20th century
What it boils down to is that the Irish scene is now guaranteed to last while the British one is blowing for tugs - there are several lessons to be learned there
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 02:10 PM

I meant to add, I know hardly any "young Irish whizzbang groups" - I'm referring to the masses of solo players, particularly concertina and piping player, who are springing up like mushrooms - in their many hundreds - the ones we knew some years ago are now teaching
There are sessions a-plenty but as afr as I can make out - no groups - I don't know where that idea came from
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,im bainbridge
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 02:22 PM

Well that's a bit more constructive, Jim C!
I have no wish to antagonise anyone- I think the 'boom' had an important influence on the 'revival' in Ireland- there certainly was one, maybe not as in England but a revival nonetheless, and I say it was needed, even if you still think all was well..
There are lots of technically skilful young musicians in Ireland- I know several in Leitrim- some of them listen to the older* players & absorb the old ways,, some of them are aiming for commercial success & listen to agents & promoters and it shows.

* eg Michael O'Brien, Sean Gilrane, Ben Lennon & Lorraine Sweeney, a younger player who knows what it's about...….
Clare is obviously great for music, but whatever happened at Doolin?- to repeat my question in an earlier post, what about a direct answer? There is nowhere in UK where such an abomination of the music exists. For Bord Failte etc to promote it as a hotbed of traditional music is a travesty, and I shudder to think of the disappointment suffered by knowledgable European visitors?
hope you're having a happy Patrick's Day!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 02:49 PM

TRY THIS PRETTY REPRESENTATIVE CLIP
NOT BAD HERE ) DESPITE MY COOLNESS TOWARDS ACCORDIONS
GOOD HERE TOO
AND HERE
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 03:38 PM

jim carroll, you owe me an apology , that anonymous post was not me.Iagree with youabout clontarf however not every CCE branch is like clontarf , they are as good or bad as the people organising them, for example the bantry branch is very different from the skibbereen branch. i am not being mean minded the standrad of instrumental playing and unaccompanied singing is very high, however the standard of song accompaniment is not, that is not opinion but fact, probably because the tradtion in the past hasbeen mainly unaccompanied, but tradtionshave to evolve if they do not they become moribund

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 03:59 PM

Dick wrote:-
jim carroll, you owe me an apology , that anonymous post was not me

but at 17 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM Jim wrote
I auomatically assume that was Dick Miles - an old battlegound
I apoloogise if it wasn't but it is a fact

To me this sounds like an apology to you.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:02 PM

I've already apologised Dick - accept it or forget it
The problem with CCE is that it is a monolithic Government approved organisation whose play by the rulebook to win prizes ethos tends to stultify creativity and initiative
I have the greatest respect for the teachers, but quite often they leave in depair at trying to fight the bureaucrats - I know this because of a A CLOSE FRIEND doing just that
I had the honour of being part of an offshoot of a branch of some of some of Londons best musicians (Roger Sherlock, Raymond Roland, Booby Casey... etc) which was expelled for refusing to be part of one of the leadership's schemes
The West London Traditional Music Group survived after the CCE Branches all collapsed for want of support
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:26 PM

I pointed out that the branches vary, the bantry branch runs the chief o neill festival and organises non competitive music sessions,
in my experience branches are generally [not always] left alone to their own devices [clontarf was an exception.,and so it seems was the west london branch [what year was this and what year was clontarf]
I AM GLAD THE WEST LONDON BRANCH SURVIVED, HOWEVER IT WOULD NOT HAVE STARTED IF T WAS NOT FOR CCE]despite what they did in btween in expelling.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 07:34 PM

Jim C states:

"Actually, the music was not in a bad way in the 50s and 60s - you just had to know where to go to find it" I believe Jim was in Liverpool and London at that time.

From postings on this thread I guess you could say the same for Folk Music in the UK today but we are constantly being told by Jim who obviously doesn't know where because he lives in another country.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 03:54 AM

Oh dear - I don't know what is happening in the UK because I no longer live there - not that old chestnut?
@Course I don't - I never visit the UK because of the vast distance, we don't have internet because we live in the middle of the West Clare desert, All by old friends and family emigrated to the moon, we never meet up with UK people who share our interests and ... most of all - I haven't got you good people to explain to me (and argue for) what's happening on the folk scene
I think, wven from a couple of threads like this, more or less what has happened to teh folk scene in Britain, especially as it started to happen two decades before I moved to Ireland
Gi'e us a break Hoot
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:21 AM

By the way Hoot, in the fifties I was in Liverpool, half way though the sixties I moved to Manchester and at the end of them, to London - I regularly visited clubs throughout Britain and associated with many fellow researchers via weekend connferences and events right up to my leaving Britain in 1999, when the rot was really beginning to set in bigtime
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:23 AM

Sorry Jim, but what you have just told us is that everything you know about the folk club scene in England is either out of date or hearsay. I am not saying you are wrong but given that the evidence of people who are still very active in English folk clubs is at odds with your second hand and pieced together information, who would an independent adjudicator believe?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM

I am still active and performing in the UK AND IN IRELAND. this is my opinion, tradtional unaccompanied singing is valued more in ireland than in england, there are still a number of folk clubs in the uk that value it but they are a minority.
the instrumental side the playing of irish reels etc is a little stronger than england, but in scotland instrumental scottish music is strong.
the song accompaniment skills are much stronger in the uk, for example there are virtually no concertina accompanists other than me, yet in the uk there is steve turner, me, brian peters roy clinging john kirkpatrick and many more.the scenes are different. what needs improving in the uk is the standard of floor sinning in in some non guest singing clubs, some of it is an insult to the audience, a few of them are flaw sinners. this is not a competition between one country and the other .

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:45 AM

Where are these clubs where there are flawed sinners? I want to go there :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM

"Sorry Jim, but what you have just told us is that everything you know about the folk club scene in England is either out of date or hearsay."
I've done no such thing Dave - unless you' are a travelling salesman your first hand information on other clubs is no better than mine - the internet places us where we need to be in terms of what passes for folk
You have argued passionately for a folk scene that has radiaclly moved away from traditional song proper, as have others here
If I didn't have access to what passes for "good" in folk song today, I'm more than happy to be guided by you
Please stop wiggling - you and others have told me how folky Ed Sheeran is and others have praised The Kinks to the Folk Heavens
I was inspired to start all this by an editorial written by somebody who has produced some of the finest example of traditional singing available - and can't sell them - all you have offered is excuses why the clubs are disappearing and people aren't purchasing the magnificent stuff that is available
Now you're back to telling me that none of this is really happening (when you've nearly but a gut telling my why it is) and my information is out of date
You really need to stick to your own hymn sheet
And you still haven't responded to what you ask me to repeat
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:20 AM

unless you' are a travelling salesman your first hand information on other clubs is no better than mine

Not a travelling salesman but a sales support technician that did travel all over the country until 8 years ago. But now, yes, my knowledge is of just 3 clubs and what people tell me. There are a lot more people telling me their clubs are thriving than those telling me they are dying.

I have readily admitted over and over again that the folk club scene is not perfect. Just not as bad as you make it out to be. Your selective memory is getting in the way of what was really said and, once again, I can confidently predict that you cannot find any instance of my saying "none of this is really happening".

You know very well why I have not responded to your points. See my post 17 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM if you have forgotten. Once you clarify what you want, I can respond. I have lost count of the number of times you have attributed the words of others to me and said one thing then said you meant something else. I am not falling for it again.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM

"their clubs are thriving than those telling me they are dying. "
All 186 of them (your figures) ?
You are duckin' and divin' again
I'm not intersted that clubs whio no longer cater for folk song (as you have indicated) are "thriving
It concerns me that in many of the folk songs are no longer welcome
Sorry - we're not communicating again, just going over old graound
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:20 AM

Dave
"04:53 AM"
You responded with yet more demands that I ansewer your questions -yet you continue not to answer mine - you do this often enough to show (to me at least) that they are only an excuse to avoid my points
I've made my point about the role of melody over and over again - you haave adequate enough information to respond to what I've argued - lease do so
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

Jim,

You persist in misinterpreting my point about the Kinks. I was not in any way claiming that they are "folk" per se. What I was saying was that an interpretation of one of their songs performed in a "folk style" should not be out of place in a folk club. Most club audiences, in my experience, were (and still are) sufficiently sophisticated and broad-minded to enjoy the occasional bit of fun without feeling that their enjoyment of traditional music was being compromised.

Of course if you feel that any time spent singing non-traditional songs is time wasted then that is understandable. However you have already acknowledged that some non-traditional songs are acceptable. The question then is where to draw the line, and that becomes a matter of taste and judgement for particular clubs, and their audiences. The balance has always varied between individual clubs - some were heavily traditional, others mostly contemporary, most lay somewhere in between. Traditional music has always been at the heart of what folk clubs put on, and so far as I can see that remains the case, but there has always been a place for other music provided it was complementary to trad and performed in an appropriate "folk" style. Railing against that, when it has been the case for more than half a century, seems pointless to me.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:51 AM

The above post from Howard seems to be the balanced voice of reason. I certainly recognise my experience of British folk clubs as guest singer, organiser and general supporter from what he has written... and it reminded me that my first visit to a folk club when I was a schoolboy is now (gulp) sixty years ago!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 08:40 AM

"Of course if you feel that any time spent singing non-traditional songs is time wasted then that is understandable"
Utter nonsense - my own reperoir is about made up of around a third non traditional songs
This is distorting my position utterly- I've said from the beginning that any movement that insists on just folk songs is ploutering around a museum
You use the traditional forms to create new songs - that is what makes for homogeneous folk scene - that's what people accepted in the past without cramming other forms and styles under the umbrella
As far as the Kinks are concerned, I choose them and Dave's pop singer, Ed Sheeran becaause thaie, over accompanied, repetitive manner of singing is as far as you can get from our information communicating narrative folk function
Not one of you have attempted to explain where your preferences *which you are fully entitled to) fit in with folk song - the only feeling I get from you is lip-service patronising of its "importance", general disinterest and occasionally open hostility "wer know it's important but it's time to make room for our stuff" basically
Try doing that with any other musical form ant see how far you get
"Balanced voice of reason" tends to have come to mean "something I agree with"
Doesn't mean too much Vic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 09:56 AM

Since you ask, my own preference is strongly towards traditional song. When I discovered folk in my teens I became so involved that I turned away from pop music, although with hindsight I realise now that I missed out on some good music. I would say 75-80% of my song repertoire is traditional, although these days I am most active as a musician in a ceilidh band and don#t sing as often as I used to.

I have never suggested that the Kink's style of performance would be appropriate in a folk club. I was specifically describing a performance of one of their songs in the unaccompanied harmony style which has become common in folk clubs, from performers such as the Watersons, Young Tradition, Swan Arcade, Cockersdale, The Wilsons, and many more. Whether or not you like that style of singing, it is widespread on the folk scene and I stick to my view that a good song in that style is likely to be acceptable to most folk audiences, regardless of its origins.

I'm not sure we had a homogeneous folk scene, the one I was part of was extremely varied both in style and content. Not everything I heard was to my taste, but I wouldn't expect to like everything. The main unifying factor was that songs had a strong sense of structure and (usually) a clear story or message. Sometimes even pop songs can achieve that.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM

Howard wrote:-
you have already acknowledged that some non-traditional songs are acceptable. The question then is where to draw the line, and that becomes a matter of taste and judgement for particular clubs, and their audiences. The balance has always varied between individual clubs - some were heavily traditional, others mostly contemporary, most lay somewhere in between. Traditional music has always been at the heart of what folk clubs put on, and so far as I can see that remains the case

Jim wrote:-
I've said from the beginning that any movement that insists on just folk songs is ploutering around a museum
You use the traditional forms to create new songs - that is what makes for homogeneous folk scene - that's what people accepted in the past without cramming other forms and styles under the umbrella.

There would seem to be little difference between these two positions despite the apparent disagreements. The contributors seem to differ only in what is acceptable and who should make that decision.

One of the greatest things about traditional song in these islands was its enormous variety; great entertainers like Jimmy MacBeath acting out a song, entrancing diva type singers like Jeannie Robertson, the wonderful controlled decoration of the great Irish singers, rasping rascally rogues like Johnny Doughty, the quiet deadpan delivery of the women singers Bob Copper recorded in the south, the power and creativity of singers as different as Gordon Hall and Davy Stewart who could and did make new verses as they went along as the mood took them. All very different and much richer for it and the folk revival should copy and develop this variety rather than aiming for a "homogeneous folk scene". The phrase makes me think of the many state-sponsored song and dance sides that the East European communist countries arranged to come to Sidmouth and other large British festivals. Technically excellent, sometimes spectacular, but predictable and dull compared with the vitality of the real village music that the likes of Bert Lloyd was recording in remote parts in those countries.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:30 AM

Howard Jones says that A GOOD SONG in the style of the Watersons ,YT etc is likely to be acceptable to most folk audiences
'even if it is a *pop* song- HEAR HEAR!!

That does not preclude the *traditional* material beloved of Jim Carroll, in fact the presence of both *genres* would make for the variety which maybe would benefit the enjoyment of both. He knows what the terms folk and traditional mean- I would love that kind of certainty. I just know it when I hear it without any academic distinctions- comments like 'that's the real thing' have been whispered in my ear by Vic smith, Pete Wood & others- they know it too!

* I am using terms like traditional and pop and genre but I hate using such words, I believe traditional music is defined by style rather than repertoire...
one of my best ever complimemnts was when playing in a trio on Cape Clear Island over 20 years ago, a Clonakilty pub owner who ran sessions said to us (Me, Patrick Forrester and Liam Kenneally) that..


'there are traditional musicians & there are musicians who play traditional music & youse boys are the first type'
-ps I just heard the Martin Hayes Quartet on RTE radio and I'd put them in the second category- it was awful.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:47 AM

"There would seem to be little difference between these two positions despite the apparent disagreements."
I've made my position quite clear on that Vic - I have no problem with people whyo draw from the tradition - a little different from the bums on seats attitude of presenting stuff that has no connection with traditional song , which is easily identifiable and not just "a matter of opinion"
Johnny Doughty was heavily influenced by music-hall songs and his performance reflected that
Davie Stewart and Jimmy McBeath were street oerformers and their perfiormances were typical of that paricular style - Traveller, Mikeen McCarthy summed that up perfectly when he talked about street singing, pub singing and fireside singing of the same songs being totally different
Audiences came to be entertained by the content of the songs, nt to listen to the various uses they were put to, which woud be more suitable for a seminar rather than a club
Jeannie was a superb traditional singer, a true representative artist
I heard Jimmy sing at one time and he managed to walt the tightrope between street and firside singing so you could appreciate it on both levels
In my opinion Maggie Barry never quite did that
All this is a million miles from what is being proposed as being suitable for today's clubs of course

"Technically excellent, sometimes spectacular, but predictable and dull compared with the vitality of the real village music that the likes of Bert Lloyd was recording in remote parts in those countries."
I couldn't agree more
Lloyd once described recording a lament from a young Rumanian girl whose youngest brother had drowned -
She was the singer who was always called on to formally sing laments, but because it was her brother on the table her involvement became so intense that what she sang was folk-art at it's creative highest - it still produces a lump in the throat to remember it
Howard
Something being well regared on the folk scene doesn't automatically make it good folk - none of those you list strike me as being tahat, though the Watersons seemed to be influenced by what the Coppers did, which was a family raher than a general folk style
I can't think of many other singers who sang as they did
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:50 AM

The contributors seem to differ only in what is acceptable and who should make that decision.

That is also the voice of reason and what I have been saying all along. So, on that note, I am happy to justify one of the songs I put up as "in the folk idiom" against Jim's criterea. Here goes...

Jim's criteria

1. word dominated, narrative communications of ideas and emotions
2. accompaniment, where it occurs is secondary to the narrative
3. The characters in the songs are identifiable people, usually with occupations and individuality
4. They have problems and situations we can all identify with
5. Structurally they ar four or eight line versified, they may have choruses but they hardly ever repeat phrases other than as a plot device
6. Performed in a traditional "folky" style
7. The melody needs to be folky too but as Jim will not be pinned down on what that is i can only assume that it needs to sound like a folk tune to a number of people.

The Song. Nancy Mulligan written by Songwriters: Amy Victoria Wadge,Benjamin Joseph Levin,Edward Christopher Sheeran,Foy Best Vance,John McDaid,Murray Cummings.

I was twenty-four years old
When I met the woman I would call my own
Twenty-two grand kids now growing old
In that house that your brother bought ya

On the summer day when I proposed
I made that wedding ring from dentist gold
And I asked her father, but her daddy said, "No
You can't marry my daughter"

Chorus A.
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
Chorus B.
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border

Well, met her at Guy's in the second world war
And she was working on a soldier's ward
Never had I seen such beauty before
The moment that I saw her

Nancy was my yellow rose
And we got married wearing borrowed clothes
We got eight children now growing old
Five sons and three daughters

Chorus A and B

From her snow white streak in her jet black hair
Over sixty years I've been loving her
Now we're sat by the fire in our old armchairs
You know Nancy, I adore ya

From a farm boy born near Belfast town
I never worried about the king and crown
'Cause I found my heart upon the southern ground
There's no difference, I assure ya

Chorus A and B

So, let's see how it measures up.

Point 1. It is a word dominated communication of ideas and tells a story

Point 2. Accompaniment can be kept to a minimum as my link below demonstrates.

Point 3. The characters are all identified. As is their occupations and individuality.

Point 4. They have distinct problems that are easily identifiable

Point 5. 4 line verses. 2 are sung followed by a 2 part chorus, each part having 4 lines

Point 6. Sheeran's original recording may be over produced for some tastes. I have given a link below to a much simpler recording

Point 7. The tune sounds folky to me and millions of others.


I don't know this guy at all so I hope he doesn't mind my using his version to demonstrate a simpler version of Nancy Mulligan. Cover by Lloyd Griffiths

Now, as far as I am concerned, I have responded to all your points, Jim. Back to you to disprove it is not in the folk idiom.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:58 AM

CAN YOU GIVE US A GENUINE FOLK SINGER WHO SOUNDS LIKE THIS DAVE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:09 AM

what the Coppers did, which was a family raher than a general folk style
I can't think of many other singers who sang as they did

Recent research, some of it uncovered by those working under the banner of Sussex Traditions (inclusing self) are uncovering examples - recordings and written references - of other families who sang in the "alternating glee harmony" of the Copper Family - the Hills of East Dean. the Townsends of East Chiltington, The Millens in faraway Kent. There are also accounts of a Victorian carol group in Falmer and a choir that sang folk songs in Ditchling - both with similar repertoires to the Coppers. Still much to be investigated but progress is slowed by the time that one of the team wastes on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:31 AM

Be interested to hear what transpires Vic - I heard this about thirty years ago and have still not had it confired
I think Lomax described The Copper's style as being native to Sussex as long back as the early fifties
I enjoyed their singing but found that it was the sound I was listening to rather than the words - which I find problematical
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:56 AM

We are talking about folk songs and folk clubs, Jim. If the song and link I sent does not measure up to your points, tell us why.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:38 PM

"We are talking about folk songs and folk clubs,"
No we are talking about what goes on in folk clubs and how they relaye to the real thing - which is why people turned up to them
Yu always avoid answering questions by asking another
I asked you to relate youtrm song to the sound of a folk song, please do
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 01:10 PM

Regarding Lomax's view:

Vic doesn't mention the dates of the material that he and others are investigating except to mention a Victorian group. I would therefore guess that the groups being investigated are pre Lomax's time in England.

And in the light-hearted manner in which these threads are carried on may I also add my request that Vic confires his findings.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 02:25 PM

alfred williams.. recrded everything that was being sung in his area this included glee songs sung by solo singers, this was of course in the 19 th century.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 03:19 PM

"Good folk". Now that is an interesting concept! Had you said "authentic folk" I would have to agree with you, none of the harmony groups I mentioned sound much like anything I'm aware of from the tradition, even including the Coppers. However the same can be said of most of what is performed in folk clubs, including instrumental accompaniment with guitar, concertina or melodeon, or the rather odd nasal vocalisation affected by some male singers and the breathy head voice of some female singers. The folk revival has developed its own styles. What determines "good folk" in the context of folk clubs is surely whether the audiences enjoy it, and all the groups I mentioned are, or were in their time, very popular with folk club audiences.

I believe the principal reason people become attracted by folk music is the same as any other genre - they like the sound of it. There may be additional reasons of course, but why listen to something if you don't enjoy it? That is the reason I prefer to hear folk songs sung by folk singers (even the nasal/breathy ones) rather than by classical or rock singers - I generally prefer their sound to that of the others.

Let us both acknowledge that our personal experience of folk clubs is necessarily limited and that we cannot be certain that our own experience is entirely representative of the club scene as a whole.    Let us also acknowledge that we have different views on where to draw the line on what is acceptable to hear in a folk club. What I cannot agree with is your assertion that singing songs from the wrong side of that line, wherever it lies, is driving out traditional music and driving away audiences, when folk clubs have always included such material.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 03:45 PM

The folk clubs started in the UK in the 1950s and are not part of any previous tradition. They have their own tradition which has evolved to encompass a wide range of other performance arenas, festivals, sessions, singarounds, concerts in a wide range of venues, house concerts; taking the music out into a wide range of institutions, schools, colleges, museums, village halls, all thriving with plenty of people of all ages involved. I do get around the country and I have folk performing friends all around the country, and traditional music is not suffering because of the infiltration of any other types of music. I co-operate with many young performers and they all have a great respect for and knowledge of the traditional music of these islands.

It has been stated by quite a few people on this thread and others that the decline in actual FOLK CLUBS since the 80s is down to a very wide range of factors, certainly not down to what sort of music is or has been played in the clubs.

As an avid buyer of MTCDs, it is a shame that Rod is not selling as many copies currently but again this can be put down to a wide range of factors, not least the current economic mess, and the fact that some of his latest productions have largely duplicated what is available from other companies, Topic, Veteran etc.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM

"They have their own tradition"
That is a gross misuse off the term tradition

Definitions the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.
"members of different castes have by tradition been associated with specific occupations"
synonyms: historical convention, unwritten law, oral history, heritage
The only other defintions is about religion

The clubs based their practices on a song tradition that they borrowed from -
This is a nonsensical abuse of the English language

" it is a shame that Rod is not selling as many copies "
Lip service if you are not prepared to do anything about it - the rest is yet another string of ecuses which totally ignore the fact that the decline of the clubs was documented as far back as the predictions of what would happen if the scene didn't do something about what was happening
Still no attempt to justify the fact that what is passed off as 'folk' today has nothing whatever to do with folk song proper - certainly no acceptance that the decline =was brought about when the right of choice was taken from folk song lovers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:14 PM

All of that is your opinion and interpretation, Jim! Let's see if anyone else takes up the sword for your religious cause.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:15 PM

'the decline =was brought about when the right of choice was taken from folk song lovers' Absolute rubbish (IMO).

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:42 PM

DtG thanks for the Nancy Mulligan cover by Lloyd Griffiths. I like that better than ES's.
I wouldn't mind hearing him sing that down at the local 'folk club'. It'd be at the folkier sounding end of the the assortment of stuff we get on a singers night.
To me the words look like other folk songs and to me he sounds folky because there isn't a drum kit.
Though he is wearing a baseball cap.
Hmmm.
But if I close my eyes I can pretend I didn't see it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:16 PM

Steve wrote:-
The folk clubs started in the UK in the 1950s and are not part of any previous tradition.

Correct, they are not. Yet they very swiftly established their own traditions. Most people would give the start of the British folk song revival to 1951 and the 1951 Edinburgh People's Festival Ceilidh being its first manifestation and one that made a huge impact - hardly surprising with figures like Lomax, Henderson and MacColl at the helm and arranging the content. There was a concert at the Oddfellows Hall on 31st August and other more informal associated events throughout the weekend in smaller halls and homes. Alan Lomax has the good sense to record the concert and though the conditions were far from ideal, the result catches the excitement of the event. The concert contains some fine performances of the big ballads, particularly by Jessie Murray and they are mixed with others of much more recent origin, cornkisters with the composer known, bothy ballads, the recently written John MacLean March sung by Hamish Henderson, great Gaelic singing and the whole lightened and contrasted with some instrumentals from John Burgess on the pipes - and he is not playing his heavy Ceol Mor repertoire but realises his role so plays accessible tunes like Irish Washerwoman.

Many influential people were there including Norman Buchan who was to start his own folk club in Glasgow soon after. Arthur Argo was also there and combined with others to get things moving in Aberdeen. The fire that was kindled by these three in Edinburgh and in London was soon to spread all over the country. I would contend that the rich variety of songs and tunes of different origins heard in that concert became the template for the way the folk scene developed inevitably with different people taking the music in different directions but still showing that inclusive approach that still characterises the scene today though the type of venues and presentation styles continue to diverge.

Fortunately the Lomax recordings of that night were released on a CD in 2006 - 1951 Edinburgh People's Festival Ceilidh - Various Performers - The Alan Lomax Collection Series - Rounder CD 1786
You can read a long review of the album and hear a few sound clips from it by clicking here

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:36 PM

Jim, much as I hate to say this, you are just holding hoops up and the more I jump, the higher you hold them. I am not jumping any more. I have applied your criteria to a song that I put forward as being in the folk idiom and it passed every single test. You are trying to get round that by applying further tests. IE it must sound like something else. Sorry, but I have followed your rules and proved that a song written by someone you do not like is indeed in the folk idiom.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 04:20 AM

"Jim, much as I hate to say this, you are just holding hoops up and the more I jump,"
Now, it seems, people are re-inventing dictionary definitions to suit a declining interest in folk song
I hope to god that this forum is not representative of what is happening elsewhere.

"All of that is your opinion and interpretation, Jim! "
No it isn't Steve - I observed the exodus from the scene and am still in touch with many who walked away from it - people who began to feel unwelcome when they sang unaccompanied songs, or "unappropriated" long ballads (as they have been described here) or boring "sepia" folk songs (as the also have been described here.
Dave put up 186 folk clubs along with a list of non-folk star performers as "a successful" folk song scene.
The term "tradition" I took from the dictionary - to describe the drift from folk song as "a traditio" insults the English language and the intelligence
If Steve's "religious cause" insult is anything to go by, the research side of folk song is in as bad a state as the cli=ubs, but at least thety are putting up projects like the maginficent Carpenter Collection - let's hope the future generations will respect it far more that the contributors here have, it's far to dominated by "inappropriate" long ballads for the present crowd
One wonders what people like Norman Buchan, Alan Lomax and Hamish Henderson would have made of all this depressing nonsense
When we interviewed Ewan back in the early eighties he put it in a nutshell - "folk song will only die if it falls into the hands of people who don't like it or don't understand it"
We've had examples of that in one form or the other over these discussions
Dave
I have asked you a simple question - you claim that Galway Girl is 'folky' - I ask you to present a folk song that sounds anything like that
If you consider that "a hoop" then we really are finished here - if you are unable to do that, then my point is made - it has nothing whatever to do with folk song
I have bust a gut responding to every point that has been put up - I have got nothing in return
You are doing exactly what you accuse me of - shame on you for suggesting otherwise
You have answered nothing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 04:32 AM

Now, it seems, people are re-inventing dictionary definitions

There have not been any dictionary definitions, Jim. Only yours. The song I put up fits your definition to a tee. Is that so difficult to accept? Tell you what though, if you want a songs that have very similar melodic structure and timing to Nancy Mulligan though, try mixing Star of the County Down with bits of Byker Hill for a start. There are many more. Now, I have addressed every single one of your points and it is your turn. Explain to us how, by your own definition, Nancy Mulligan is not in the folk idiom.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM

The decline in numbers of clubs is due to many different facts , lack of available premises , poor standrd of flaw sinners in mainly non guest singers clubs,lack of leadership in direction in the folk revival,lack of support in the past for song clubs and festival by the EFDSS,[ LACK OF GOVERNMENT FUNDING [ COMPARE TO IRELAND AND CCE]
Lack of young people organising folk events they are a few but not many, the fault partly lies with degree courses[such as newcastle that encourage the idea that gigs just happen]and do not put enough emphasis on explaining that performers might have to organise and promote their own concerts/ folk clubs

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 04:49 AM

Everyone on here can read and understand points of view expressed on this thread and can make up their own mind on those views

the English Language is so constructed that different interpretations and explanations can be expressed

Being too dogmatic in ones own interpretations does not help!

I am afraid Jim Carroll's postings drive me up the wall ~ yet he IS entited to say what he does ~ I, as I have said before understand where he is coming from ~ but times and opinions have changed ~ I cannot believe, if this the case ~ that Jim does not follow what is being said ~ is he winding us all up?

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 05:03 AM

There have not been any dictionary definitions, Jim.
What's this then Dave - this is what I was referring to in response to the fantasy one about clunb traditions
Definitions the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.
"members of different castes have by tradition been associated with specific occupations"
synonyms: historical convention, unwritten law, oral history, heritage
If Galway girl fits to a tee then you should have no problem prodcing a comparison instead of alluding to one perhaps Harry cCox sang something similar - or Jeannie Robertson maybe - can't remember Walter ever coming up with one
I have over a century's worth of research and published collections and a roomful of recordings, boks and thirtyodd years worth of fieldwork to back up my arguments - you have not even been able to produce a consensus between you - let alone a definition - certainl not a visble interest in or respect for traditional song
None of this is "my opinion" - a trip to The Vaughan Williams Library wuill show you what folk song is - which of your 186 clubs do I go to find yours - any collections of 'new folk songs' any researched information "
Of course there isn't -'It's all in teh mind, you know' as the Goons used to end their programmes
Very, very depressing
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM

you should have no problem prodcing a comparison

I just did.

I can see what the issue is though and, as I said, it is all subjective. The Song meets every single one of your objective points.

It is about real people and real situations. It is 4 or 8 line verses centric. It has a chorus.

The only thing in dispute is "does it sound folky". It does to me and millions of others. It doesn't to you. Simple.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 05:39 AM

The definition you copied in red is of tradition btw. Not contemporary songs in the folk idiom, which is the point in queztion. The only definition of that on here has been posted by you.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 05:53 AM

WThe definition you copied in red is of tradition btw. W
Which, as I said, was what I was referring to in reply to Steve's (and now Vic's) rewrite of the existing one
Read nat I write please
I asked you to produce a comparison - you haven't so there isn't one - doesn't getr more complicated than that
I said why it does not fir folk forms - it is not narrative, it is repetitive, the accompaniment detracts and in places drowns out the words
Now - unless you can produce a folk song that fits that descriptive=on this is finished   
"I just did. "
Where did you I can't hear it - maybe my sound system is up the creek
Mixing Byket hill with Star iof teh County Down - which folk singer ever did that
Bloody ridiculous
A recording please - I've put up enough of mine
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:01 AM

Jim, once again you are shifting the goalposts. No one is suggesting that these songs are "folk" in the VWML/1954 sense. However you agree that some modern songs which do not fit this definition may also be acceptable in folk clubs. The question is which songs are acceptable in folk clubs as "quasi-folk"? The answer is, that depends on the club and on audience members. I doubt that many who attend folk clubs would be surprised to hear "Galway Girl", although at some clubs it might be out of place.

If you are insisting that only modern songs which are so close to traditional songs that they could be mistaken for the real thing are acceptable then I am afraid you are out of step with the practice in most folk clubs for the last half-century or more.

The other question is whether these quasi-folk songs are driving out traditional songs. I don't see this myself, and others agree with me, but neither of us can see the full picture. I am encouraged by the number of young performers seeking to earn a living on the folk scene who are performing and recording traditional songs, which they wouldn't do if they didn't think their audiences would be receptive.

I agree that the reluctance in some quarters to listen to ballads is alarming. However it takes an exceptional singer to deliver a long ballad well, and many club floor singers lack this ability, so it is perhaps understandable. Singers like Martin Carthy and Brian Peters, to name just a couple off the top of my head, are able to include several ballads in their performance sets, so there is a willingness by audiences to listen to ballads when they are performed well.

There are valid concerns about the health of the folk club scene, although I doubt the accuracy of the figure of 186 clubs. However in most cases these are more to do with performance standards than the nature of the material performed, and the willingness of new people to take on the burden of running them as the current organisers get older. Attracting young people to clubs largely populated by older people is more difficult, but they are finding folk in other ways. I hear lots of traditional songs performed by exciting young performers. I am optimistic for the future.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:34 AM

Your argument makes no sense, Jim. If a contemporary song has to sound exactly like an existing traditional folk song to be in the folk idiom, you have removed any chance of creating new songs. I said that, to me, some parts of Nancy Mulligan sound like Star of the County Down. If you don't think it does, fine. We disagree.

Taking Your argument further, Elvis Presley's "Wooden Heart" sounds just like the German folk song "Muss I Denn" and Simple Minds "Belfast Chi!d" sounds just like "She moved through the fair". Just what folk song does Ewan McColl's "Dirty Old Town" sound like?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:38 AM

Just noticed "it is not narrative". It tells the story of two real people, one an Ulster protestant the other a Wexford Catholic defying convention, marrying and living a long happy life. It is a story. Is your idea of narrative different to everyone else's?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:39 AM

"Jim, once again you are shifting the goalposts."
No - I am damn well not Howeard, nor have I ever done so (nor have I ever mantioned '54)
I have always said that new songs using folk forms are not only "acceptible" in clubs but are essential if folk is going to survive - the term "new songs using folk forms
" has always summed up what I mean - I make no sopecifications on that
The term I use constantly is "homogeneity" - that, in my experience, is what audiences expect
Theres has never been any suggestion that new songs might be mistaken for folk songs (not by me anyway (even though it has occasionally been the case)
I have no objection to people earning a living from folk song but oncee that becomes a sole objective of the scene as a whole it loses its grass-roots nature
I do think those using folk song commercially might put back something into the scene, after all, anybody recording songs they make have to pay for the privilege, but that's a personal opinion
I put Dave's figure of 186 because that's what he put up as a measure of success
I have no idea whether ot not it is accurate - - little else in his Wiki entry is
I jhave no idea why Brian Peters and Marting Carthy should waste their time on "unsuitable ballads (somebody else's description - certainly not mine)
Again - in py opinion, all folk songs deserve hard work, I don't believe ballads to be any harder than many others - their quality takes any singer half-way there from the start
Now - what goalposts have I moved and where have I taken them to ?
Jim
Back later

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:39 AM

"Jim, once again you are shifting the goalposts."
No - I am damn well not Howeard, nor have I ever done so (nor have I ever mantioned '54)
I have always said that new songs using folk forms are not only "acceptible" in clubs but are essential if folk is going to survive - the term "new songs using folk forms
" has always summed up what I mean - I make no sopecifications on that
The term I use constantly is "homogeneity" - that, in my experience, is what audiences expect
Theres has never been any suggestion that new songs might be mistaken for folk songs (not by me anyway (even though it has occasionally been the case)
I have no objection to people earning a living from folk song but oncee that becomes a sole objective of the scene as a whole it loses its grass-roots nature
I do think those using folk song commercially might put back something into the scene, after all, anybody recording songs they make have to pay for the privilege, but that's a personal opinion
I put Dave's figure of 186 because that's what he put up as a measure of success
I have no idea whether ot not it is accurate - - little else in his Wiki entry is
I jhave no idea why Brian Peters and Marting Carthy should waste their time on "unsuitable ballads (somebody else's description - certainly not mine)
Again - in py opinion, all folk songs deserve hard work, I don't believe ballads to be any harder than many others - their quality takes any singer half-way there from the start
Now - what goalposts have I moved and where have I taken them to ?
Jim
Back later

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 08:45 AM

what about a penalty shoot-out to settle it?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM

or maybe face to face Child ballads (or Kinks' songs) at a 20 yard distance-

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 09:36 AM

On the one hand you agree that new songs are not only acceptable but necessary. On the other you seem to object to all the suggested examples of modern songs which might be heard in a folk club. That is what I meant by shifting the goalposts, going back to "folk" in the sense of what is in the VWML (I used 1954 as a shorthand for this). The folk club scene has always included much more than that.

I doubt Martin or Brian would waste their time singing ballads if their audiences weren't receptive to them. And whilst I take your point that all folk songs require hard work by the singer, it is easier to sit through a short song from a poor singer than a long ballad. The best story fails when told badly. Unfortunately many club singers are just not up to delivering a ballad.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 11:47 AM

"which might be heard in a folk club."
Not in today's folk clubs, from the sound of it
I' have deliberately accentuated the need for them relating to folk songs proper in sile and function - and have gone into detail of what both of those are I always have - the word I have consistently used is homogeneity
Where on earth is that "shifting the goalposts"
C'mon Howard - you are either not reading my posts or aare deliberately distorting them - I really did expect more from you
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 11:59 AM

Just what folk song does Ewan McColl's "Dirty Old Town" sound like?

"The Banks of the Ohio", sort of. There are a lot of other American songs in that family. Probably caught on internationally precisely because it's basically American.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 12:24 PM

In folk music and folk song the words and tunes constantly get borrowed/develop/change over many years sometimes because of faulty memories, sometimes because an individual preferred his/her own phrasing and sometimes because collectors bowdlerized the lyrics or a fiddler added and extra bar or two.
I expect that many of the oldest songs would sound very different if we could hear them today.

For me that is what makes much of folk so interesting wherever I hear it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 12:41 PM

"Just what folk song does Ewan McColl's "Dirty Old Town" sound like?"
Ewan adapted the tune from Isla Cameron's 'Waters of Tyne' - the two were working together on the play the song was written for when it was composed
MacColl's technique was to choose a tune and spend hours humming it through, making changes until he was satisfied with it
I was lodging with them when he was working on a new song - it drove the household nearly insane !
Some of Ewan's early tunes were unchanged lifts of traditional ones - but I can think of only a few he did this with later
The most successful exception was his beautiful 'Joy of Living' which he picked up from Sicilian singers while he and Peggy were on holiday
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 02:36 PM

BRITAIN's HISTORTY OF PEACE AND FRIENDSHIP WITH ITS FELLOW MEN
NINE OUT OF TEN

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 03:02 PM

?????????

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 03:24 PM

mixing byker hill with starof the county down,well i hve heard it done in irish pubs in ireland and people seem to havew enjoyed both songs,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 03:38 PM

yes the people liked it the folk seemed to like byker hill and star of the county down. last year i was booked at saltburn folk festival and the highlight for me wasjill pidd singning unaccompanied songs such as lord bateman , but that is my taste , there was also a woman duo who were competent but not to my taste prancing around the stage akin to mick jagger and singing imo what were forgetaable songs, but many people seemed to like them, thats life

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 03:38 PM

Sorry 'bout that lads - wrong battlefield - stand by your beds
" i hve heard it done in irish pubs in ireland and people seem to havew enjoyed both songs,"
I've heard them do Abba's Waterloo and enjoyed it (as I have I in the right circumstances) - but it doesn't have anything to do with folk
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 04:54 PM

Which is more folky. Simple Minds' "Belfast Child" or Ewan McColl's "Dirty Old Town"?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 04:54 PM

i will be devils adcvate here , but jim they are the folk, has not fo0lk music in folk clubs become art musi?/

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 04:58 PM

The latter, possibly depending on how it's sung.

https://youtu.be/7vhhTvcLoRw

https://youtu.be/-mPraO_sJ7A

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 05:52 PM

Which of these is acceptable then, a bank clerk singing 'Chevy Chase', a social worker singing a chanty and me singing 'The Little Shirt Me Mother Made for me' learnt directly from my grandmother?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:06 PM

What about Chevy Chase singing "Young Banker"?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:47 PM

Nice one, Dave!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM

All of them. To me. What do You think?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:29 AM

And still total refusal to discuss how any of this relates to traditional music
Probably the most facile argument put forwards here is "things change"
We came together all those years ago to listen to, sing and understand a centuries-old art form - we did just that, some of us still do
Nothing has changed - those songs are as enjoyable and fulfilling as they ever where because they are timeless - just as Shakespeare and the Classics are
Only a cultural vandal would suggest that we've "moved on" from Hamlet or The Iliad, or The Canterbury Tales - why should folk art be any different
If a pop song has a life-span of over a year it is unusual - or it has been put on life support by an industry who things there may still be a profit in it
Our ballads still have an continuing entertainment value for those who seek it out after many centuries of singing by 'ordinary people' - yet the call here is to move on and embrace something that is not likely to last a year - what kind of logic is that ?
I've been told Im living in the past by someone who had admitted he likes to sing 'That Little shirt my Mother gave to Me' - a mawkish, 100 year old tear-jerker
Sorry lads - I'll stick with what I believe to be good, enjoyable and relevant art, if it's all the same to you

Still no traditional comparison with Galway Girl Dave ?
These are the lyrics, if it helps - perhaps you can identify the folkiness - the narrative, the motifs, the characterization - everything that makes folk song what it is

Galway Girl
Ed Sheeran
She played the fiddle in an Irish band
But she fell in love with an English man
Kissed her on the neck and then I took her by the hand
Said, "Baby, I just wanna dance"

I meet her on Grafton street right outside of the bar
She shared a cigarette with me while her brother played the guitar
She asked me, "What does it mean, the Gaelic ink on your arm?"
Said, "It was one of my friend's songs, do you want to drink on?"
She took Jamie as a chaser, Jack for the fun
She got Arthur on the table with Johnny riding as a shotgun
Chatted some more, one more drink at the bar
Then put Van on the jukebox, got up to dance

You know, she played the fiddle in an Irish band
But she fell in love with an English man
Kissed her on the neck and then I took her by the hand
Said,…
         
Nothing in it for me, I'm afraid, but hey, chacun son Gout
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:38 AM

The way they relate to traditional music is that in some way they are able to sit alongside traditional music in performance. In many cases they don't attempt to imitate traditional music, but they are capable of being performed in a similar way, which means that a folk club audience is more likely than not to enjoy them (not everyone of course, individual taste plays a part).

You insist on a homogeneity in folk clubs which, in my experience anyway, never existed. The clubs I attended always presented a broad spectrum of music, performed in different ways, but all broadly recognisable as "folk", and with a strong component of traditional music.

It is very difficult to pin down what qualifies a particular song in this way, it is often easier to recognise than describe, and there will often be room for disagreement. It may depend on whether the composer is recognised as a folk singer or is an outsider. I agree with you about Sheeran's song, not to my taste either. However the same could be said of a lot of contemporary folk standards, including some of McColl's output - "Dirty Old Town", for example, or "Joy of Living", both of which lack narrative structure, are strongly personal and written in the first person; none of these are characteristic of traditional song. Is that McColl's undoubted credentials as a folk singer make his songs more acceptable where Sheeran's are not?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:49 AM

Still no traditional comparison with Galway Girl Dave ?

I was referring to Nancy Mulligan, Jim. See 18 Mar 19 - 10:50 AM and I have mentioned it by name a few times since. And you complain about me not reading posts!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:54 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: little shirt my mother gave to me?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

By the way Dave - what id more folky Belfast town or Dirty old town
The latter 0- hands down
One of the distinctive features of folk song is its economy of line and its ability to reac a conclusion
The former meanders without wever getting anywhere, is full of superfluous non information and it reaches no conclusion   
The song carries no description or characterization, the people are cyphers and the surroundings are indistinguishable
It deals in sentimentality rather than sentiment

On the other hand, Dirty old town is precise and sharply defined as a working class town - the lovers are not a mass of undefinable humanity, but two very identifiable human beings
It ends with a desire to tear down the place being sung about
As a young man, me and a Salford girl over-snogged one night and I missed my last train home to Liverpool, so, finding four hours on my hands I walked the dark streets of Salford till about four o'clock in the morning - I was bowled over by the reality of MacColl's four verses up against the real thing so much I wrote to my lady friend and said so
Compared to that reality, Belfast is chewing gum you enjoy for five minutes and spit out
Only time will tell of course - let's see who is singing Belfast Town next year compared to (how old and how widely sung now?) Dirty old Town
That goes for all of you 'folkie sounding' pop songs

"I was referring to Nancy Mulligan, Jim"
Same difference Dave only loger and drossier - you have advocated for Galway Girl as well

"Nancy Mulligan
Ed Sheeran
I was twenty-four years old
When I met the woman I would call my own
Twenty-two grand kids now growing old
In that house that your brother bought ya
On the summer day when I proposed
I made that wedding ring from dentist gold
And I asked her father, but her daddy said, "No
You can't marry my daughter"
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
Well, met her at Guy's in the second world war
And she was working on a soldier's ward
Never had I seen such beauty before
The moment that I saw her
Nancy was my yellow rose
And we got married wearing borrowed clothes
We got eight children now growing old
Five sons and three daughters
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
From her snow white streak in her jet black hair
Over sixty years I've been loving her
Now we're sat by the fire in our old armchairs
You know Nancy, I adore ya
From a farm boy born near Belfast town
I never worried about the king and crown
'Cause I found my heart upon the southern ground
There's no difference, I assure ya
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border"

Feel free to produce a comparison
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:54 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: little shirt my mother gave to me?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

By the way Dave - what id more folky Belfast town or Dirty old town
The latter 0- hands down
One of the distinctive features of folk song is its economy of line and its ability to reac a conclusion
The former meanders without wever getting anywhere, is full of superfluous non information and it reaches no conclusion   
The song carries no description or characterization, the people are cyphers and the surroundings are indistinguishable
It deals in sentimentality rather than sentiment

On the other hand, Dirty old town is precise and sharply defined as a working class town - the lovers are not a mass of undefinable humanity, but two very identifiable human beings
It ends with a desire to tear down the place being sung about
As a young man, me and a Salford girl over-snogged one night and I missed my last train home to Liverpool, so, finding four hours on my hands I walked the dark streets of Salford till about four o'clock in the morning - I was bowled over by the reality of MacColl's four verses up against the real thing so much I wrote to my lady friend and said so
Compared to that reality, Belfast is chewing gum you enjoy for five minutes and spit out
Only time will tell of course - let's see who is singing Belfast Town next year compared to (how old and how widely sung now?) Dirty old Town
That goes for all of you 'folkie sounding' pop songs

"I was referring to Nancy Mulligan, Jim"
Same difference Dave only loger and drossier - you have advocated for Galway Girl as well

"Nancy Mulligan
Ed Sheeran
I was twenty-four years old
When I met the woman I would call my own
Twenty-two grand kids now growing old
In that house that your brother bought ya
On the summer day when I proposed
I made that wedding ring from dentist gold
And I asked her father, but her daddy said, "No
You can't marry my daughter"
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
Well, met her at Guy's in the second world war
And she was working on a soldier's ward
Never had I seen such beauty before
The moment that I saw her
Nancy was my yellow rose
And we got married wearing borrowed clothes
We got eight children now growing old
Five sons and three daughters
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
From her snow white streak in her jet black hair
Over sixty years I've been loving her
Now we're sat by the fire in our old armchairs
You know Nancy, I adore ya
From a farm boy born near Belfast town
I never worried about the king and crown
'Cause I found my heart upon the southern ground
There's no difference, I assure ya
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border"

Feel free to produce a comparison
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM

Dirty old town is precise and sharply defined as a working class town - the lovers are not a mass of undefinable humanity, but two very identifiable human beings

It has no characterization whatever. They are simply people from Salford. Nothing to indicate their class, either.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 06:15 AM

let's see who is singing Belfast Town next year

Presuming you mean Belfast Child, It was released 20 years ago, Jim. The tune is a lot older.

As to comparing the lyrics to other songs - You are just taking the piss now. Your original list of what constitutes a contemporary song in the folk idiom -

1. word dominated, narrative communications of ideas and emotions
2. accompaniment, where it occurs is secondary to the narrative
3. The characters in the songs are identifiable people, usually with occupations and individuality
4. They have problems and situations we can all identify with
5. Structurally they ar four or eight line versified, they may have choruses but they hardly ever repeat phrases other than as a plot device

I proved that Nancy Mulligan did all of that and you did not like it so you added that it must be performed in a folky style, which is fair enough. I covered that. It must now also sound and have lyrics like like a traditional song.

Basically what you are saying is that if it does not sound like a existing traditional song to you, it is not in the folk idiom. Just come out and say it. Most people will disagree but no-one will think any less of you.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 06:19 AM

the lovers are not a mass of undefinable humanity, but two very identifiable human beings

Oh yes, Thanks for the reminder, Jack.

So, Jim, you mean the unnamed lovers in Dirty Old Town are more identifiable than the Nancy Mulligan of Wexford who worked in a hospital in WW2 and William Sheeran who was a farm boy from near Belfast?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 06:43 AM

Dirty old town is precise and sharply defined as a working class town - the lovers are not a mass of undefinable humanity, but two very identifiable human beings

It's a great song, no question. Its popularity is well-deserved, and so far as I am concerned it fully meets the criteria to be performed in folk clubs. It is certainly "folk" in that sense, and sits well alongside traditional songs. However it doesn't share most of the characteristics of traditional song, except that the tune is adapted (almost beyond recognition) from a traditional one.

I do wonder how much of its acceptability is that it is by a recognised folk musician? The same can be said about Richard Thompson's songs, his past involvement with traditional music (albeit played in a non-traditional way) gives him credibility in folk circles and makes his songs more acceptable, whereas songs by "pop" composers are subject to greater scrutiny and are more likely to face rejection, when on a blind test they might not appear very different.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:03 AM

"However it doesn't share most of the characteristics of traditional song,"
"However it doesn't share most of the characteristics of traditional song, "
In the sense that it is set among reakl people and in real surroundings, it most certainly does, as compared to the No Mans land populated by non characters whose only objective in life is to fall in and out of love with one another of popular songs
Several of MacColls songs depict the 'Universal Man' man rather than individuals, but they all draw from reality and contain true sentiment rather than the crocodile tears of sentimentality.
If these discussions are anything to go by, I find virtually impossibly to judge what rings today's folkies bells
Most things except folk songs seem to do the trick
Personally, I find Richard Thompsons so deeply buried in musical noise to tell what he's singing about - might as well be reciting the Oscar Awards
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:11 AM

In the sense that it is set among reakl people and in real surroundings, it most certainly does

And Nancy Mulligan is not set among real people in real surroundings?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM

"I proved that Nancy Mulligan did all of that "
thy lyrics prove otherwise
Where is the characterisation ?
Beyond falling in love - where is there any indication of what they are
All lovers in folk songs sing about how that love goiives rise to other problems - parental disaproval, ssocial misalliance, parting, poverty.....
Sheerean repeats and reapeats and repeats and repeats..... ad nauseum
His non-narrative singing... broken up lines, lack of grammatical sense.... it totally dominated by an over-loud accompaniment.... makes the lyrics of teh sont totally superfluous
That is as 'unfolkie as it gets
If youi are suggesting that any of this stuff resembles foolk songs proper, it is you who is taking the piss
I have asked you to put up recordings of the songs you are claiming to resemble folk songs Qalongside genuine ones - the fact that refuse to do so indicates to me that you are unable to
Enough for me, I'm afrain - but feel free to prove me wrong by doing so now
" Nothing to indicate their class, either."
I can just see Pricess Di and Prince Charlie snogging on tehe Gasworks Cross and walking hand in hand by the old canal, sniffing the 'smoky breeze - can't you Jack - the setting represents the people amnd their class perfectly
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:28 AM

I really have had enough of batting off chalk and cheese songs
Will somebody respond to what has actually happened to folk songs in teh supposed folk scene
Have all these centuries old songs really had their day - if people believe so, they really ned to say so (a couple of you have already stuck their heads above the parapet with their "unsuitable ballads" and "sepia songs"
Any more for the Skylark
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:50 AM

Where is the characterisation ?
Beyond falling in love - where is there any indication of what they are
All lovers in folk songs sing about how that love goiives rise to other problems - parental disaproval, ssocial misalliance, parting, poverty.....

I was twenty-four years old
When I met the woman I would call my own

He was 24 when they met.

Twenty-two grand kids now growing old
In that house that your brother bought ya

They now have 22 grand kids and live in the house her brother bought her.

And I asked her father, but her daddy said, "No
You can't marry my daughter"

Her Father was against the marriage as he was a Protestant from Belfast and she was a Catholic from Wexford.

That is just in the first verse. He goes to to give us their names, where they were both from, the work they both did, the fact that they married in borrowed clothes, how many children they had and that they are still together after 60 years.

Just how much characterisation do you want?

There is no such characterisation in, for instance, Dirty Old Town. As to the tune, it has for more in common with the Star of the County Down than Dirty Old Town has with The Waters of Tyne.

One think you do have right. We are comparing chalk and cheese but I know which is closer to the tradition.

Why don't you just say that you do not like the song Nancy Mulligan and have done with it? It would make far more sense than the arguments you have put up against it so far.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:30 AM

Jim wrote:-
reakl people and in real surroundings

Could we have some clarity on what is meant by "real" here? To my mind the Queen and Jim Carroll are both "real". I do not believe either of them are ficticious though I have met neither.
Similarly I know Main Street in Miltown Malbay and The Mall in the City of Westminster are both "real surroundings" as my feet have walked along both on a number of occasions. Perhaps you could provide us with a dictionary definition here as these have been used recently in this thread?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:02 AM

Salford class demographics here.

see the section "Salford Social Grade & Occupation Statistics"

45% ABC1's against a bit over 50% for the whole of England.

Hardly rules out the characters in the song being a medical student and the daughter of the local GP.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM

Will somebody respond to what has actually happened to folk songs in teh supposed folk scene?

I for one have been repeatedly telling you that traditional folk songs continue to be at the heart of folk clubs and other folk events, at least the ones I go to.

Have all these centuries old songs really had their day?

Again, I have repeatedly told you that in my experience this is not the case, and as well as the older singers who have been singing these for decades there are large numbers of young folk singers who are performing traditional songs and tunes. Here are some examples from a few CDs on my shelf:

The Teacups "One for the Pot": 9 out of 10 songs are traditional
Pilgrims' Way "Red Diesel": 9 songs, 6 of them trad
Alice Jones "Poor Strange Girl": 10 songs, 7 trad
Granny's Attic "Off the Land": 8 songs, all trad

These are all young musicians, mostly in their 20s and 30s, all gigging regularly at folk clubs and festivals. This is why I am optimistic about the future.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:30 AM

"I for one have been repeatedly telling you that traditional folk songs continue to be at the heart of folk clubs and other folk events"
And everybosdy else keeps telling me taht this is not the case and providing me with poor substitutes
In the long run, 186 clubs as a success needs to be addressed - especially as many of these have eschewed the real thing

Daev
taht is superficial nonsense
Two pieces of information about facekless jobless ckassless people
Do you really call that charactariseation
You get more caractariseation frorm a Puccini Opera
Scraping the surface is not what folk song does
Now - how about those sound clips
Vic - I mean real people oin relation to teh songs and their makers and singers , of course - you've been on the scene long enough to know that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:32 AM

The clue lies in the description 'The Voice of the People' or maybe you believe Bert and Topic were referring to The Royal Family
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:58 AM

Two pieces of information about facekless jobless ckassless people

You are having a laugh, Jim. We know everything about this young couple. Their names, ages, occupations, where they lived, how long they were together, where they got their house from, how many children they had, how many grandchildren they had, the fact that her father did not like him and they ran off to get married and that they were poor working class Irish people.

What do we know about the couple in Dirty Old Town? He met her by a piece of waste ground and gave her one up against the gass yard wall. And you call the former superficial nonsense.

You want clips? Here you go.


Nancy Mulligan


Dirty Old Town

Not sure what you are going to do with them apart from you like one and not the other.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

Vic - I mean real people oin relation to teh songs and their makers and singers , of course - you've been on the scene long enough to know that

Thanks for the explanation.... but if you mean "Working class people - as defined by me - who in the past have sung songs that might be regarded as folk songs using the definition that I favour." then, for the sake of clarity, you ought to use words something like I have chosen rather than misusing "real people".
There is also a problem these days with the phrase 'Voice of the People'. I know that you mean the fabulous and continuing sets of albums of traditional song and music released by Topic but it we were to move outside the very small pond that we are both swimming in, I think you will find that for most people that phrase has come to mean "The way around 31% of the British electorate voted in the 2016 EU Referendum which now must be carried out whatever the subsequent negotiations have revealed about the underhand practices of both sides but mainly the leave campaign and the ignominy and economic disaster that this will bring to the UK and the entire island of Ireland."
We are communicating on a public forum, not by private emails and anyone can read what is posted here.
In writing this I am calling for clarity.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 10:26 AM

We know as much about this couple as we do in any folk song and that is one-dimensional - not how folk songs work
Everything else you have once again chosen to ignore
THe fact that you simply refuse to put the song against comparable traditional one makes it quite clear that there isn'tyt one
Finished here Dave
Telli it to the marines, I've totally lost interest in yoyur non responsive argument about one song
The fact that you have been totally dishonest by givinmg Dirty Old Town being sung like a pop songs confirms that you are taking the piss
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 10:33 AM

Tell you what, Jim. You put up a traditional song that sounds like Dirty Old Town to you and I will put up one that sounds like Nancy Mulligan to me.

Finished here Dave

I think I would do the same if I was in your shoes, Jim. :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 10:43 AM

Davce
I am appalled that you should attempt to pass of a rochked-up version of Dirty Old Town in order to show how folk songs compare with the dross sheeran pumps out - that is as dishonest as it gets
Our folk songs are basically for solo penaccompanied - you offer the exact opposite
I have been asking you to put up something traditionallly performed up against one of your examples for over a week now and now you dare to asrformances and are uk me to do te same without having the courtesy to comply
And you continue to press your case - without proof
I really did think better of you than this
Over and out
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:18 AM

I have been asking you to put up something traditionallly performed up against one of your examples for over a week now

The link I sent was of Nancy Mulligan performed by a man on his own with a guitar. Other that his baseball cap it is pretty traditional. What else do you want?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:37 AM

As you don't have the courage to provide your own, perhaps you might put anything of your own choosing
BESIDE THIS PLEASE
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:47 AM

I would have put something like that up, Jim, but I thought you would have said phrases like 'Fol-de-rol-diddle-aye-a' were superficial and meaningless.

OK. How about Star of the County Down by The Wolfe Tones

Same meter, same melodic structure, even the same key as Nancy Mulligan. Now, I have linked a trad song, performed traditionally that I reckon is pretty much like Nancy Mulligan.

Now your turn. Give me a link to one that sounds like Dirty Old Town to you.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:00 PM

Another rocked up version from a folk boom folk group
Can't see much of Harry in their - can you ?
Have you no shame
TRY THIS - ON A SIMILAR THEME
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:02 PM

Why are you deliberately picking crappy versions of traditional songs to make your point ?
We know that Nancy Mulligan is as far from the tradition asyou can get
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 01:55 PM

"Star of the County Down" is an Irish ballad set near Banbridge in County Down, in Northern Ireland. The words are by Cathal McGarvey (1866–1927).whether itis tradtional is debatable , neither are the wolfe tones performing it in a tradtional style, they do not seem to understand that accompaniment means the accompaniment following the singer, her is a good example of a folk song accompanied in a better way.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko2UKE75en0

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:05 PM

"accompaniment means the accompaniment following the singer, "
Thanks Dick - there's a lorra lorra singers who need to hear that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:06 PM

here is another version of a folk song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jCTeQdBFP8
so two versions of whats is without a doubt a folk song[[cecil sharp thought so too] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko2UKE75en0

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:33 PM

here are two musicians singers who wre part of the sixties folk club boom,tom paley peggy seeger
Dave the gnome,take note, when you can do that, you will be worth booking.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:34 PM

peggy and tom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CVUE6z76tw

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 03:25 PM

Nancy Mulligan is as far from the tradition asyou can get
Blimey Jim! , I might bookmark this page.
See you back here ... 2039?

I've not noticed any particular comments about it so here is the link again to the Lloyd Griffith's version.
https://youtu.be/IdHgXlnhnKk?t=0m20s 
I wonder how Brian Peters or Thomas McCarthy would treat it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 03:46 PM

mention of the Wolfe Tones reminds me of a John McKenna committee discussion in 2014 about how to publicise the double CD of the entire McKenna recorded material. This magnificent production is still available at 20 euro from www.johnmckenna.ie by the way...
Anyway, various methods were planned & one member said he'd heard from one of the Wolfe Tones on tour in Australia that he would put the word out.

'Wolfe Tones' said the chairman 'these days should that not be the Continuity Wolfe Tones?'

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:48 PM

Dick,

Re the Seeger / Paley clip above and Peggy's version of Cumberland Gap.

Compare it to this version. It's a no contest. One is by a folk musician from the mountains of North Carolina,the other is by a classically trained middle class musician from the city.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnA--ErxGG8


I am not passing judgement but I know which I prefer.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 03:06 AM

so we can safely say that the vast majority of songs in cecil sharp house collection are folk songs. Hoot i will listen, but i still maintain that peggy seegers accompaniments are good accompaniments , that does not mean someone else might do it better, but when we compare PEGGYS ACCOMPANIMENTYS TO THAT EXAMPLE OF THE WOLF TONES imo peggys accompaniments are beTter
CUMBERLAND GAP frank profitt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnA--ErxGG8

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM

Thank, Dick, I knew someone would put up some traditional songs. I really don't want any bookings though, I don't know enough songs!

The whole point of my clips, Jim, is to show that even traditional songs can be "popped up". I have chosen the artists precisely because you would not get them in a folk club but you could get the songs. The song I have put up as being in the folk idiom has passed every single one of your tests and no one but you is saying the song would be out of place in a folk club provided it is performed in a folky manner. Just as there are some some songs that would normally be welcome but would be out of place with the wrong treatment.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM

about singing , i know when i sing a song unaccompanied, stylistically i sing differently from when i accompany it, i recently was the invited guest at cork singers club , i practised all the songs beforehand because i had to sing all the songs unaccompanied, imo without harmonic acoompaniment it is important to use vocal linear embellishmen to some extent ,definitely to a greater extent, how much is of course a matter of taste, and the embellishments imo should not detract from the storyline, imo emeblishment should not be the be all and end all, but that is only my opinion

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM

Just out of interest, Dick, would you perform "Nancy Mulligan" at a folk club? I'm not asking you to actually do it, just if you think it would be suitable given the right treatment.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:15 AM

...same question to any of the other performers on here as well.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:24 AM

Unaccompanied singing is all about breathing (I am sure some realise this) using normal speaking phrasing and of course odd spoken word and stops etc ~ accompaniments using instruments (yea what else?)

This is at odds from accompaniments which tends to want to impose a straighter rythmical delivery ~ as Sandman says ~ accompaniments should be just that and and it is imortant not to impose and change the most important part ~ the delivery of the song storyline ~ that is get in the way!

Accompanists CAN of course on occasion ADD to the overall delivery of the song and convey an artistically pleasing "package" to the hearers

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:50 AM

"the Lloyd Griffith's version."
Which is every bit as unfolky and uninterpreted as the former one
A clever-clever intrusive guitar display accompanied by hiccoughy-delivered words which are delivered without a a shred of interpretation or emotion - a skillful piece of musical dexterity - not a song - as far as you can get from the emotionally filled narrative stories that make up our folk repertoire as you can get
It is certainly not unpleasant, far more pleasurable than the musical-soup immersed stuff that Dave put up, but it bears no resemblance to any folk song I know
Dave has failed miserably to place hi claims next to - perhaps you can place that next to a traditionally rendered piece it in any way resembles ?

The thing that strikes me about all the stuff that is being claimed as being folk coincides with the reason I walked away from pop song if that IT IS ALL SO BORINGLY LIMITED
They are virtually all humourless and plotless - more often than not, nameless, faceless, jobless, interest-less non-people whingeing about failed relationships, or couples whose world doesn't extend beyond each other.... very little else.
It doesn't matter too much what they are about because the instruments, if they don't actually drown out the words, render any plots the songs may have totally irrelevant - these songs are designed for the listener to listen to the music
Occasionally - very occasionally, a song extends beyond this and puts up a cardboard world resembling a poorly constructed set from an early film noire - no place, no people, no life, nothing - DULL-DULL-DULL

Our folk songs are diametrically the opposite - love yes, but usually directly linked to other aspects of life, parting, but yes, but usually far more than some feller running of with your girlfriend - far more likely to be about being pressed to sea, or social misalliance, or lack of a job, or war..... real situations

I don't see a great deal of real humour in your songs - no funny stories like The Tailor's Britches, or The Old Drover, or The Ranter Parson... or the many, many more humourous pieces that make up the folk repertoire
No cleverness such as that found in The Penny Wager or The Crafty Farmer
No excitement that even approaches the epic Farmer Michael Hayes, or The Rambling Royal
No real tragedy except losing your girl or feller, which is basically the only thing to be identified with in the pop repertoire   
No real sexual encounters, no eroticism, so seduction - if there is sex, it's penisless and fannyless - sex with no balls
Certainly there are certainly no substantial stories to the substitutes you are offering to folk songs -
The plots of the ballads are as exciting and absorbing as anything in literature - from Shakespeare to modern novels and plays - good films.
Your songs are to be sung at people - they certainly don't invite you to be part of them - little more than musical sounds

We used to have occasional evenings in the Singers Club entitled 'You Name It, We Sing It' where the audience was asked to pass up subjects for songs rather than requests
The idea was that the subjects were referred to, which then referred to to an existing song - or even just a random topic
Only the singer with large repertoires participated - I can never remember them being stymied - nearly on one occasion when someone wrote on the slip "unpaid brickie goes berserk and slays two" - Bert Lloyd eventually obliged with Lamkin

Al Whittle described the folk repertoire as dull "and some of us prefer colours other than rustic sepia"
Quite honestly, I can't think of anything as dull as the monotone, peopleless, plotless stuff you people are putting up as an alternative to folk song
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:57 AM

In your opinion, Jim. Mine differs.

I am happy with what I hear at folk clubs in the main. You are not. That is all this boils down to.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM

But of a tangent but that is what I like about browsing stuff. I came across this Lancashire song and loved the auto generated sub titles. Hope Dereck sees it. He would have a good laugh :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM

you are asking two different questions would i do it or is it suitable for folk clubs, so why are you asking ME these questions, why ndo you not ask jim carroll.let us look at the lyrics
I was twenty-four years old
When I met the woman I would call my own
Twenty-two grand kids now growing old
In that house that your brother bought ya
On the summer day when I proposed
I made that wedding ring from dentist gold
And I asked her father, but her daddy said, "No
You can't marry my daughter"
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
Well, met her at Guy's in the second world war
And she was working on a soldier's ward
Never had I seen such beauty before
The moment that I saw her
Nancy was my yellow rose
And we got married wearing borrowed clothes
We got eight children now growing old
Five sons and three daughters
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
From her snow white streak in her jet black hair
Over sixty years I've been loving her
Now we're sat by the fire in our old armchairs
You know Nancy, I adore ya
From a farm boy born near Belfast town
I never worried about the king and crown
'Cause I found my heart upon the southern ground
There's no difference, I assure ya
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
now let us look at a song it reminds me of
I've got a pal,
    A reg'lar out an' outer,
    She's a dear good old gal,
    I'll tell yer all about 'er.
    It's many years since fust we met,
    'Er 'air was then as black as jet,
    It's whiter now, but she don't fret,
    Not my old gall

    We've been together now for forty years,
    An' it don't seem a day too much,
    There ain't a lady livin' in the land
    As I'd swop for my dear old Dutch.

    I calls 'er Sal,
    'Er proper name is Sairer,
    An' yer may find a gal
    As you'd consider fairer.
    She ain't a angel — she can start
    A-jawin' till it makes yer smart,
    She's just a woman, bless 'er eart,
    Is my old gal!

    We've been together now for forty years,
    An' it don't seem a day too much,
    There ain't a lady livin' in the land
    As I'd swop for my dear old Dutch.

    Sweet fine old gal,
    For worlds I wouldn't lose 'er,
    She's a dear good old gal,
    An' that's what made me choose 'er.
    She's stuck to me through thick and thin,
    When luck was out, when luck was in,
    Ah wot a wife to me she's been,
    An' wot a pal!

    We've been together now for forty years,
    An' it don't seem a day too much,
    There ain't a lady livin' in the land
    As I'd swop for my dear old Dutch.

    I sees yer Sal —
    Yer pretty ribbons sportin'
    Many years now, old gal,
    Since them young days of courtin'.
    I ain't a coward, still I trust
    When we've to part, as part we must,
    That Death may come and take me fust
    To wait... my pal!

    We've been together now for forty years,
    An' it don't seem a day too much,
    There ain't a lady livin' in the land
    As I'd swop for my dear old Dutch.
Dave , i have never had an inclination to sing the AlberrtChevalier song so why would i want to sing the ed sheeran song,
as for suitabilty in folk clubs, I sing what i want to sing, I let other people sing whatever they want, however that does not mean i would pay money to see certain performers, i would not bother to pay money too see ed sheeran, however i would pay to see alf garnett in concert, because he is so funny and because he makes good political points through satire, but i would not go to see him [alf ]in a folk club,
dave, you speak with a forked tongue you cannot catch me out, enjoy this clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp8aTvVqE7I

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:25 AM

"In your opinion, Jim. Mine differs."
A total cop out Dave
I have laid out in detail exactly why what you are putting up is boring - in a couple of words THEY ARE TOTALLY ONE-DIMENSIONAL
Show where that is not the case
If you refuse to do so you are as ballsless as your songs
Show us you comic songs, your family and social dramas, your epics, your tragedies, your erotic encounters, your wars, your examoles of great injustices, your struggles for justice and betterment, your massive examples of inequality, your social and personal triumphs and failures, your great stories, your supernatural tales, your battles with the elements....
I can give you examples of all of these and much more fro folk songs
Can you give me any from your limp-wristed pap ?
I very much doubt it

Now - ask me a question instead of answering mine - that's what I've come to expect from this discussion

That you are "happy" with wwhat you hear in clubs says a lot about you and the clubs - nothing whatever about the music
I'm happy with a good episode of Holby City - doesn't make either of them anything more than disposable chewing gum - good for a fw minutes chew if you like that sort of thing, but nothing more

I can't play your link (browser problems)
I'll try and solve the problem and, if I do, I promise I'll give it far more attention than you have given any of my clips
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:32 AM

Jim keeps telling us that thousands of true folk followers, including himself, abandonded folk clubs when they became contaminated with non trad material.The same occured when people became discontented with the Catholic church and its rituals.
Those who left the Catholic church set up their own churches such as Methodist, Quacker and many others.These churches are still around after
centuries.
Why didn't someone amonst the thousands of true folkies open clubs that operated as they would like,if Jim is right with his claims, the clubs would be full of the faithful and thriving.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:32 AM

Jim, what are your thoughts on modern songs like The Famous Flashing Lane?

thread.cfm?threadid=164469#3983538 > video link

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM

Sorry Freddie
I really am having a problem with my sound on Mudcat so I can't listen to it
I've read the text and it seems fine

"Why didn't someone amonst the thousands of true folkies open clubs that operated as they would like,
It took many years of organisation and united effort to organise the present scene - a century, if you count EFDSS
The clubs gradually deteriorated
Quite frankly I find it arrogant that somebody should say, "We've taken over your clubs - now **** of and organise some more (that we might or might not decide to take over if the mood takes us)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:23 AM

I really don't understand why you're all so anxious to get Jim's seal of approval.
You've seen what he thinks is the real deal.

You disagree about the nature of folk music. He's convinced he is right. He is dismissive of the music that does it for you.

Why not pay him the same courtesy?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM

Not arrogant Jim,if you run the club you set the rules,if performers flout the rules you don't give them a spot.
If the club was set up by true folkies they should have enforced their policy.If the club was set up to include other material the true folkies should tolerate that policy or find a club to their taste.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM

"Not arrogant Jim,if you run the club you set the rules,if performers flout the rules you don't give them a spot."
Arrogabt yes - the clubs were set up to give a platform to a certain type of song
An openly aggressive hostile takeover is as arrogant as as it gets "might is right"
It doesn't just include the clubs - it also includes the brand name, which has done incalculable damage to the real thing
You must be aware of the numerous court battles that have occurred over identity theft by products - from hamburgers to champagne - and how much it costs for a manufacturer to protect his/her product   
Anybody who suggests that clubs are open to anybody walking in from the street and presenting whatever they wish can have no regard either for the people whoi put in te original hard work of the music itself
Arrogance and identity theft are the terms that spring to my mind
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:49 AM

"Anybody who suggests that clubs are open to anybody walking in from the street and presenting whatever they wish can have no regard either for the people whoi put in te original hard work of the music itself
Arrogance and identity theft are the terms that spring to my mind"

I'm not suggesting that clubs are open to anybody who walks in of the street doing any thing they like with no regard to club policy.
Clubs have a policy and should not tolerate uninvited behavior,if they don't they only have themselves to blame,I've never seen any performer bring his own enforcers and force the audience to listen.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:51 AM

That should read if they do

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 08:25 AM

I've never seen any performer bring his own enforcers and force the audience to listen.

I have - just the once. It was at the BBC Folk Club - "Clanfolk" - in the Marquis of Clanricarde in Bayswater in the early 1970s. The booked act was Martin Carthy, and I was the then organiser and booker. Just as Martin had started his act, in walks Dominic Behan, pissed, with two large Irish blokes with him - very obviously his "minders".

Behan stalked to the front of the stage, pushed Martin in the chest - Martin stumbled back, luckily into a chair - and then proceeded to sing Irish rebel/anti-English songs at the top of his voice. Being in no mood to tackle two large blokes - though I would have happily slung Behan out if he'd been on his own - I went downstairs and summoned Danny, the even larger Irish landlord. Up came Danny and out went the trio.

What struck me afterwards was Martin's calmness and patience at the time - though he remembered it all with a grimace when I met him, many years later at a Christmas concert in Shoreham!

But that's the one and only time I've encountered such an incident at a folk club.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:15 AM

"
I'm not suggesting that clubs are open to anybody who walks in of the street doing any thing they like with no regard to club policy."
That's always happened - too regularly, but more than that - you've taken over the brand name
I stopped going to folk clubs whe they stopped presenting folk songs - as did thousands of others
What I've bgained from conversations here is that quite a few people don't actually like folk song - some pay lip service by patronising its importance but on a number of occasions some have been openly hostile
THat cannot be a "healthy" folk scene - in fact it's sharp practice

There is a legend that Pete Seeger took an axe to the amplifier cables when Dylan appeared at Newport - denied
The more heartwarming and not quite the same occasion was when Joe Heaney appeared at a Clancy Brothers concert in Dublin Concert the audience tried to boo him off the stage until Liam demanded that they listen to him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Tootler sans Cookie
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:44 AM

One thing that strikes me about these discussions is the intolerance of each others perspectives.

There is no one way to interpret a folk song, as with any other form of music.

If you don't like someone else's interpretation, so be it. It doesn't mean it's wrong, or necessarily even a poor interpretation.

I think it's worth bearing in mind Martyn Carthy's comment on folk song.

"The worst thing we can do with these songs is not to sing them"

Think on that when you condemn someone else's version of a traditional song.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:58 AM

The brand name was taken over in the 60s, if not earlier. I could never understand why, for example, the Incredible String Band or Nick Drake were considered to be "folk", they certainly weren't to my taste, but the fact remains that they were regarded as folk, and that you could expect to hear that sort of stuff, and more, in folk clubs alongside traditional songs and those in a traditional mould. That hasn't changed.

You say that you stopped going to folk clubs when they stopped presenting folk songs, whereas the experience of me and others is that they are still presenting folk songs, even in the narrower sense of "folk" that you mean. I think the difference between us is that we are willing to accept that we might hear other songs as well, and that some of it might bear little or no resemblance to traditional song other than a certain similarity in the way it is performed. We are willing to acknowledge that in most cases these fall within the scope of what the folk clubs have always regarded as appropriate music. We don't see any evidence that including this music, which has always been part of the folk club scene, is damaging traditional singing.

Sometimes someone may overstep the mark and sings something inappropriate, that's only to be expected especially where there can be no clear consensus on where the mark lies.

I sorry that you seem to have persuaded yourself that the folk clubs are now free-for-alls. I admit that some clubs are like that, but I find that in most clubs I will hear folk music, however you want to define it.

I have other reasons for not attending clubs so often these days, the standard of performance being one of them, but when I want to hear traditional songs I can usually be confident that I can find them.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:38 AM

I've never seen such an incident Will,as you say almost unique,but it was swiftly dealt with.If people behave improperly, they should be corrected and if they persist excluded,doing nothing but moan or walking away and they have been allowed to win.
My experience is much the same as Howard's,both sorts of club were available in my area and you went to whichever suited you,many went to both.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:39 AM

I could never understand why, for example, the Incredible String Band or Nick Drake were considered to be "folk"

Robin Williamson published two books of traditional tunes which made them very accessible. That fitted in with the instrumental breaks in the songs and tied what he was doing to the tradition. For me, the books have worn a lot better than the recordings, which I would not make any effort to listen to again.

I never even heard of Drake until he'd been dead for 20 years (and realized I hadn't missed anything). Did he actually label himself as "folk"?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:46 AM

You disagree about the nature of folk music. [Jim]'s convinced he is right. He is dismissive of the music that does it for you.

Why not pay him the same courtesy?

Because the way he comes across makes people who love traditional music look like hate-crazed bigots. And hardly any of us are like that. He's conducting black propaganda against the whole trad scene and repelling people who might otherwise be drawn to it. We can't tolerate that behaviour.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 10:26 AM

Why didn't someone amonst the thousands of true folkies open clubs that operated as they would like,if Jim is right with his claims, the clubs would be full of the faithful and thrivin@
i suugest you visit the welly folk club or stockton or darlington britt,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 10:44 AM

I'm not seeking anyone's approval, Al.

I'm not trying to catch anyone out, Dick. I was asking you because you are a performer and Jim is not.

Jim, it is just your opinion. Nothing more. I do enjoy what I see and hear at folk clubs and I enjoy our conversations. They both have their occasional downsides but I can live with that.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM

Tell Jim such clubs exist Dick,he insists they are extinct.
Any club of any flavour will thrive only if there is a large enough
audience in its catchment area.this is equaly true wether it is trad,contempory or anything else.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM

Come on Jack - he's an old guy going on the way old guys do on a very minority website.


sorry you don't get Nick Drake. I've got to admit - I didn't til he'd been dead about forty years. I was doing a gig at an outside market and there was this bookstall. On it was Trevor Dann's biography of Nick.

I don't know if you know Trevor dann's work. he's the guy who did that amazing series of DVDs - guitar maestro's. Carthy, Wizz Jones, Steve Tilston, Martin Simpson - amongst others. I knew if Trevor Dann was interested enough to write about him, there would be real substance. And there is.

His link to folk music - well its arguable. Much of his first album was influenced by classical composers like vaughan Williams who dabbled in folk music. he was certainly part of that boho Les Cousins set back in the 1960's.

He was an ingenious guitarist creating new tunings to say exactly what he wanted.

The real question is though, when you know someone has fashioned his art in our folk clubs, and creates beautiful songs like Riverman, and Brighten my Northern Sky. Why would you want to disown him from your movement.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:17 AM

"Come on Jack - he's an old guy going on the way old guys do on a very minority website."
C'mon Al
I've never been insulting to you - what's the problem with you peole? Yo whinge and run to sitr when somebody insults you yet have no problem at stooping to ageism when you can't get your way
Come back ewhen any of you can come back with a definition you can describe and agree on or produce anything resembling a track record in folk song
Al personal abuse proves is that you have run out of intelligent answers
hame on you Al - I really did think you were above this shit

"Jim, it is just your opinion."
Stll not found the balls to back up yours Dave - I have given you my reasons
"The worst thing we can do with these songs is not to sing them"
Amen to that - I believe Martin sings many songs people have described as "unsuitable long ballads" - many of them are "rustic sepia" according to our ageist friend
People need to read what Martin has written on the songss you people are happily stamping out of existance
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:23 AM

Al personal abuse proves is that you have run out of intelligent answers...

...Stll not found the balls to back up yours Dave

Both statements on the same post and copied without further comment :-)

I have no need to back anything up or justify my tastes to you, Jim. Nor do I have any need to stoop to insults.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:39 AM

Jim - I gave up arguing ages ago. You weren't paying any attention to the points I made.

Which part is abuse?
1) we are both well past our salad days -sadly
2)both inclined to go on long after its bloody obvious we do not agree
3) I for one, am anxious not to turn into King Lear - turned out from my kingdom walking the blasted heath cursing the cruel world.

And this is a very minority site - do you really think someones going to read what you have to say and think - well I will have no more to do with trad music if they're all bad tempered and intolerant?

I think this is most unlikely.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:49 AM

Calling someone an old guy is abuse, Al. Saying someone has no balls is perfectly acceptable. Funny old world init!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:06 PM

I think this thread has run it's course!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:07 PM

"aying someone has no balls is perfectly acceptable. Funny old world init!"
I could have said no courage if you prefer Dave - that's certainlyt what iI meant and, given your lack of response, is true
AAl's was a reference to ade,suggesting that those who grow old become incapable of thinking yet this "old guy" has run rings around you lot
None of you have an agreed definition, you haven't the b... whoops courage to dispute my comparison between your chosen songs and real folk songs
Of course you have no need to bsack up or justify anything Dave - you have no need to post to this argument, but as you do, unless you do your arguments are meaningless
Anybody can say what they want without justifying it - that's not discussion in my book

"You weren't paying any attention to the points I made."
I've responded to every single point made here - carefully and at length and, unlike you, have at no timed descended tp personal abuse, certainly not to the level you have
You don't want response - you want unconditional surrender without offering anything of your own
You are the ones who are basing your arguments on personal taste, with more than a little self interest thrown in
You call your music "folk" yet despise real folk music as "rural sepia"   
People don't need to read this sight to know what I say and think - my ideas are far too well documented for anybody to have to talk my word for anything
You really should be ashamed of yourself or at the very least apologise for your disgusting display of ageist intolerance
jIm

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:32 PM

So, saying someone is an old guy, when that is true, is an insult. But saying someone has no courage, when that is not true, is acceptable? Still a funny old world.

I have no need to justify my opinions because they are just that. Opinions. I have formed them in the same way everyone else does and find the constant need of some to try and prove that their opinions are the correct ones tiresome and indicative of insecurity. But that is, of course, just my opinion :-)

I am at a loss as to what we are trying to achieve here, Jim. I am happy in my folk club world. You were not happy with it so you found another that you are happy with. We are both happy with our own lives. The tradition is safely in your hands and blooming in various folk clubs as mentioned by a myriad of people in here. New songs and new artists are encouraged. It is win/win. Just what are we arguing about?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:47 PM

Martin Carthy on "rustic sepia" fol songs

"I regard tradition as progressive," he says, "and a traditional song as a progressive force, because it is concerned with the continuity of things." The word "radical" is derived from "radix", a root, and this is Carthy's radicalism: "You come from somewhere, for Christ's sake – it's like holding a grandchild in your arms – and let me tell you, there is nothing in parenthood to prepare you for the feeling of grandparenthood. Good folk music is like me holding my grandchildren and wanting to know more about my great, great, great uncle – I've got a picture of him – Tom Carthy from Ballybunion, County Kerry. I see his fingers on the uilleann pipes, and I see my father's hands and my grandfather's hands. The continuity of folk music is similar, because it is also our continuity."
Carthy illustrates his point with the exactitude of the cultural genealogist he is: "There's a great storyteller called Hugh Lupton, who cited the words of a man called Duncan Williamson, who said that when he told a story, he felt behind him a long line of all the people who had told that story before. What we are doing singing folk songs is full of ghosts, and that is what is exciting".The term "nostalgia" is pointless in a conversation with Martin Carthy; the past is a propulsion, a well of riches, and folk songs are the history of its common people, the expressions of their struggles, tribulations and superstitions, their guile, humour, love, lust and violence – and their "subversion", often in its subtlest form."
MORE HERE

I don't by any means, like everything Martin does with folk song, but his love for what some people here despise and denigrate and a lot believe is outdated and irrelevant is both profound and deeply moving
Mind you Dave "that's only his opinion"
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM

"when that is not true, "
#Did I miss your responding to my cpmparisong, ot mistake your saying you didn't have to Dave ?
You have chosen to play a major part in these discussions, for which, I have benn extremely grateful
You have demanded I respond to you and derided me ufairly bty claiming I haven't (when I most certainly have)
When I make the same demands on you, you refuse and cry foul
Sorry - that's how it is
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 01:07 PM

>>>>>>'what some people here despise and denigrate and a lot believe is outdated and irrelevant'<<<<<

I've been following the thread since it started and If there is any of this at all, I must have missed it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 01:23 PM

You have demanded I respond to you and derided me ufairly

I have not demanded anything nor derided anyone, Jim. You have made these false claims before and I can safely predict that you you will come up with no examples of my having done so.

Courage is not a thing to be tested on an internet forum in the comfort of your own armchair. It is on the ground, face to face with your fears. You have no idea of my level of courage so why question it?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 01:26 PM

I've just quoted two examples Steve - there have been others - on this and the other two threads
As far as I'm concerned patronising lip service may not be despising but it certainly is belittling (denigrating)
Outdated and irrelevant has become par for the course - can't remember who said "we must move on" or "things change", but i boils down to the same thing
The fact that people refuse to acknowledge the damage the deliberate misuse of the term folk has done speaks volumes
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 01:58 PM

Al - I wouldn't want to see Nick Drake's stuff banished into outer darkness and I agree he was an amazing guitarist.

I'm surprised you were converted by that biography. My reaction to it was, how many biographies of suicidal depressives does the world need? It was in the same category as Diana Athill's "After a Funeral", on Waguih Ghali - ok, I'd already read Ghali's book (every bit as bleak and hopeless as Athill's deacription of his life would lead you to expect) so I couldn't be put off. But there are a lot more books in that genre and none of them really got me fired up to check the subject's work out. (ok, I will except Richard Holmes on Nerval in "Footsteps", which Is fiendishly ingenious).

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 01:58 PM

'this "old guy" has run rings around you lot'

more like ever decreasing circles.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 02:07 PM

Will , i encountred impudence at no other folk club but sharps in cecil sharp house , i was the booked guest and one of the residents thought it appropriate to join me on stage [unasked] because he too played the concertina, the problem was he had a different harmonic arrangement to me which clashed, lack of control by the organiser, i am afraid.FECKON CHEEK , AND FURTHERMORE THEY HAVE NOT HAD THE DECENCY TO APOLOGISE OR ASK ME BACK, WANKERS

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 02:10 PM

Re Steve Gardham's post above I was thinking the same.

You are very much deluded Jim if you think that not agreeing with your very narrow view means that people despise and denigrate the music.

I get the feeling that almost everybody here has a far more open mind than you.

No matter how much you blow your top over things not going your way it won't change a thing.

Get over it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 02:57 PM

"If you think that not agreeing with your very narrow view means that people despise and denigrate the music.
"I'm given the quotes and have given my reasons for extending my opinion beyond them
It doesn't interest me one way or another who agrees with them - as you people have been saying from day one - there's no way of opening closed minds (or words to that effect)
I have seldom come across so may closed minds than I have here - I most certanly haven't "blown my top - I can't remember enjoying an argument as much as I am enjoying this one - it relly has exceeded all my expectations.
I leave that to those who resort to personal insulting and ageism

I got your message Dave - whatever way you care to phrase it, you have no intention of putting your money where your mouth is - can't say I'm not disappointed, but your prerogative, of course

"more like ever decreasing circles."
Have it your own way Al - I have you running in ever decreasing circles - same thing as far as I'm concerned

Nice to see Carthy's opinions are given the same cold shoulder as have mine, and he is far more articulate than I am
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 03:36 PM

I got your message Dave - whatever way you care to phrase it, you have no intention of putting your money where your mouth is - can't say I'm not disappointed, but your prerogative, of course

I have no idea what you are on about, Jim. Sorry, but I have not sent you any messages.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 03:52 PM

Apologies,

The above guest at 02.10 was me.

Perhaps instead of saying blow your top I should have said piss and whine.

It's clear that you just enjoy winding people up.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 03:54 PM

Well I don't know if you're capable of debating in a tolerant manner, doesn't seem much evidence.

rural sepia seems to have struck home.

possibly cos its bloody accurate. you seem to think folksong is prerogative of the old and the travellers, and other isolated communities.

I believe folksong is a natural function of humanity and occurs everywhere. Every community all over the world expresses itsel informally in song.

Folksong with no reference to living [eople only mythic versions of humanity is a nonsense - an absurdity.

If you spread your bet a little wider you would understand the nature of folksong better.
When Wizz Jones was asked to make a film about his life, he chose Martin Carthy to lead the question and answer section and the narration. There is immense respect between this singer of mainly traditional music and this singer of contemporary songs. Carthy has always named Big Bill Broonzy as his main influence as a guitarist.

Your angle seems to be that you are far too knowledgeable to have respect for anyone. Respect seems like an alien concept.

Finally - the reason we have no definition for our music is that it is open ended. Someone will write a whole new chapter tomorrow. And I will not be the one dismissing what another artist is trying to do. I am not so insecure.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:26 PM

Just noticed this too, Jim.

It doesn't interest me one way or another who agrees with them

Yet you say that I should justify my opinions. Do you not think that if it does not interest you whether people agree with you or not, the same should apply to other people?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:49 AM

"Well I don't know if you're capable of debating in a tolerant manner,"
Said the feller who believes that to be old is to be senile
"rural sepia seems to have struck home"
Yup - a perfect phrase for those who hate folk song
Thanks for confirming that fact at long last Al - the dislike that dares not speak its name (here at least)
Folksong teems with life, it is populated by real people in real situations - it is the history of real people, kept alive by them for centuries and probably made by them in the first place (despite attempts by people who prefer Victorian tear-jerkers, to take that honour from them)
That's why none of you who have shown your dislike of folksong will attempt to respond to my comparison to your lifeless and disposable pap
As the (ignored by you people) Martin Carthy sums it up:
"I regard tradition as progressive, and a traditional song as a progressive force, because it is concerned with the continuity of things."

"Your angle seems to be that you are far too knowledgeable to have respect for anyone"
I've taken my arguments from a century of research by others and thirty odd years of personal research - from singing, listening and organising clubs
If I know anything, its from having read and listened to others
Unlike you, I have not resorted to insulting people (in your case Al, an entire generation)

"It doesn't interest me one way or another who agrees with them"
I've listened to your arguments carefully and (far more telling) you refusals to argue and respond - I have responded to themm all in detail
I didn't come here expecting to change minds - I'd be more successful trying to rob The Bank of England -
I came here to listen to what others have to say and, if I disagreed, I have said so - how could I not respond to people who dislike or only pay lip-service to a genre of song I have devoted my life to ?
Your arguments are insubstantial, incomplete and often personal nd unpleasant -
You haven't respond to points head on - you haven't even the good sense to respond to Martin Carthy's declaration of love for "sepia" folk song, though you all rush to pay lip service to him too
You really haven't done to well out of any of this

I am grateful for Al's refreshing honesty - if more people had admitted they didn't actually like or respect the music whose banner they march under it would have saved so much time and unpleasantness
Off now to share some of our Irish recordings with an American who cherishes our music far more than any do here
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:18 AM

Jim, it was you that said "It doesn't interest me one way or another who agrees with them". 21 Mar 19 - 02:57 PM. I know you have attributed things others have said to me before but this is the first time you have argued against something you have said yourself!

Where has all this dislike of folk music business come from as well? As far as I can see no one has said they dislike anything. Apart from you. Do you seriously believe that if someone likes contemporary music, they cannot like traditional music as well?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:34 AM

No Dave - I never expected to change closed minds, certainly not on this forum of very tightly shut ones
There's a big world outside of Mudcat far more recipient to the real thing
All anybody can hope ever to do is to say what they honestly believe, which I have done here, in detail and at length - more than can be said o the rest of you
Please stop trying to score non-existent points - it's embarrassing   
I have never knowingly attributed anything to you that you have not said
You asked me over and over again to respond to points I already had
When I asked you to do the same you refused point blank and you have continued to do so - a sort of bitter victory that I am far from happy with
Let's finish this before it gets nastier than some people have already made it
Now - where did I put my wheelchair - can't remember anything nowadays !!!!!
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:37 AM

I'm not marching under any banners just attempting to live a decent creative life, with a measure of civility, a degree of professionalism and some regard and respect for the people that pay me the courtesy of listening to me.

I'm sorry that you're so far out of whack with society that you don't understand or empathise with English folk clubs any more.

By and large, the folk crowd are good eggs. They give most people a fair listen - although I confess some of your favourite artists, well I've been listening to and playing folk music for well over fifty years. I can see they might fit into an archive in Cecil Sharp house more comfortably than a guest spot in a folk club.

I'm not sure if this incessant truculence, fault finding and nit picking is supposed to reassure yourself that dementia is at bay. However I was watching O'Casey's The Plough and The Stars on TCM this week. And there was Fluther, the fighting drunk putting his fists up to everyone....

I thought, who does that remind me of now?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:59 AM

I am not trying to score anything, Jim, but when things get a bit muddled, I do try to clarify. You posted the line "It doesn't interest me one way or another who agrees with them" on 21 Mar 19 - 02:57 PM. Then a short time later suggested it was me. Simple as that.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:00 AM

' I have not resorted to insulting people' - so don't feel insulted No Balls Dave who delights in lifeless disposable pap.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:05 AM

I don't, Al. I am sure the scores of dedicated folk club organisers who put their heart and soul into their clubs don't feel insulted when they are told that they are damaging folk music or promoting mindless pap either :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:03 AM

Jim -
I leave that to those who resort to personal insulting
Could I remind everyone that this was posted by the only person to have a posting removed from this thread because it was a blatant insult.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:15 AM

"Could I remind everyone that this was posted by the only person"
As I haven no idea what the posting was, whether I was to responsible for it why it was removed, I am not even prepared to discuss an undefined accusatuion such as this
Could I remind you of your silent acquiescence of a statement that writes off the music we are discussion as "unsuitable long ballads" and "sepia rural"
For all the lip-service and declared respect from singers, club organisers and researchers, there has not been a sigle outtcry of opposition to this blanket condemnation of folk song - not from you, not from anyone - even when it has just been repeated - a deafening silence from all
We protest about only the things we care about, it seems
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,DtG sans biscuit
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM

I'd say it's much more likely to be because everyone but you sees the UK folk scene in a much more positive light, Jim. Do you never wonder why you seem to be out of step with everyone else In this?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 07:06 AM

"UK folk scene in a much more positive light, Jim. "
There you go again
Bet this one is met with acquiescent silence too
Keep 'em comin'
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM

As I haven no idea what the posting was, whether I was to responsible for it why it was removed, I am not even prepared to discuss an undefined accusatuion such as this

Search your memory, Jim. Just try and remember who you insulted and why you did it. If you cannot even remember it, then the situation is even worse than I feared. Perhaps you could email Joe Offer and ask him to remind you who it was you insulted and what the insult was, because I remember the insult and the victim. I also remember insults in previous threads against myself and against Bryan Creer (both also removed by the moderators.) Perhaps you can ask for reminders of those at the same time.

Could I remind you of your silent acquiescence of a statement that writes off the music we are discussion (??) as "unsuitable long ballads" and "sepia rural"

Please help me with the meaning of this? I don't mean just the grammatical error; I am after the intention of what you call my 'silent acquiescence'. Does this mean that if I do not approve of all your statements, I am somehow in the wrong? I reserve the right to respond or not respond as I see fit.

We protest about only the things we care about, it seems

I think my continuing record of sixty years involvement in folk music, song, dance, stories and drama speaks for itself so I regard it as self-evident that I care about the tradition.
Even more than this, though, I care about the respect that all individuals have the right to expect from others, that they can post an opinion on a message board without having a response which is demeaning or deprecating or insulting or defamation of character and in my opinion you have been guilty of all four at various times on Mudcat. You have strong opinions, most of which I agree with but some I cannot go along with. What I cannot go along with is you blatant intolerance of the opinions of others.
Then there is your hypocritical attitude towards this. You write opposing insults and when it is pointed out to you that you are a known perpetrator, you conveniently forget and ask to be reminded.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 07:39 AM

The Albert Chevalier song was about a couple who were being separated after a lifetime together, because poverty was forcing them into the workhouse. Perhaps they would from now on only be allowed to visit each other under supervision for maybe an hour a week.

Albert Chevalier used to perform it in front of a painted backdrop of the workhouse.

I'm not sure why you think its not worth a slot in the pantheon of folk music, but to me it speaks more eloquently about the England my family grew up in than any of the stuff you've cited as shining examples.

The workhouses under thin disguise were in operation right into the 1950's. When I was a small child, I was taken to see my Grandma's sister who lived in one one of these places.

As for my hatred of traditional song. That is so offensive. I have run folk clubs for much of my life booking many singers specialising in traditional song.

This truculence of character isn't a testimony to vitality. Its craziness.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 07:44 AM

You make the accusation Vic, your job to do the work to prove it - that's the way justice works
You mentioned Brian Creer, I think - Brian has not posted to this thread and I haven't crossed swords for him for several years
I have gone out of my way to be as polite as possible on these threads - all the personal abuse has come from elsewhere - you have remained as silent on the as you have on Al's attack on the folk song we have both been involved in for decades
I have not been intolerant - I have responded to each point firmly but politely - if I have not changed my mind, neither has anybody else
Where have I expressed intolerance - or do I have to go to Joe offer to find that out as well
If you really missed '"sepia rural" you can search it out on this thread
THe "£unsuitable ballads came from Jim Bainbridge who complained of arranging a tour for a singer of folk songs who had the temerity to sung 'unsuitable long ballads'
Hope it wasd't Jeannie Robertson or Sheila Stewart
"I don't mean just the grammatical error; "
Tsk-tsk - sorry - will try to do better next time
Tried to avoid typos, but I'm sure you'll find a fewl lapses in grammar if you try hard enough
And I'm the intolerant one !!!
I think we're finished here Vic - I've become vvery tired of your one sided condemnatory behaviour
In case you missed it - a guest has just written of the replacement folk songs as futting the folk scene in "a more positive light - something else for you all to ignore
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 08:19 AM

"I'm not sure why you think its not worth a slot in the pantheon of folk music"
Having made you position clear on folk song and old people, I'm not sire why you care Al
We havn't discussed music hall songs here - what I have been arguing against is the pop and pop sounding songs
Music hall songs have always been dismissed as not being folk songs because they are not - nothing to do with me
I am perfectly aware of what workhouses are - I have predecessors who were in them
I find many music hall songs mawkinsh, patronising and over-sentimantal - the opposite of folk song, as I have experienced it
As far as my truculence is concerned - I have put may case strongly and politely - you continue to abuse as have others here
Dismissing folk songs as "sepia rural" is as offensive as it gets - that is exactly what they are not - I have posted my analysis of them - respond to that if you want to
Unfortunately calling yourself a folk club is pretty meaningless nowadays, as has been proven adequately here
As I have said often, thousands of us walked away from them when we stopped hearing them sung there
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 08:44 AM

'thousands of us walked away from them'

because they were deprived of your vision of folksong. Face facts members of the general public wouldn't sit through one of your songs.
The folk clubs would still be available to you, they're the only place where you would get a listen.

If you think my behaviour is as offensive as it gets. Take a straw poll - ask the folk music community of mudcat who is far and away the most uncaring of peoples feelings, routinely saying hurtful and negative comments.

What can't you understand about this:-

We disagree about the nature of folksong. It doesn't mean that my view is right and yours is wrong. We just disagree.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 08:46 AM

Finished here Al
No interest in talking to someone who expressed his dislike of folk song as you have
Pointless
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 08:57 AM

You make the accusation Vic, your job to do the work to prove it - that's the way justice works
I have no intention of perpetrating your insults here or giving the names of the victim. They have already be removed by the moderators and I do not wish to give them the need to do this twice. Can we now assume that you do not remember who, why or how you insulted? Think back; the post in question was on February 27th - not such a long time ago.

You mentioned Brian Creer, I think - Brian has not posted to this thread
This in response to my "I also remember insults in previous threads against myself and against Bryan Creer (both also removed by the moderators)." Once again could I ask you to read posts before responding. Oh! and please note the spelling of his name. He once (rightly) took me to task for misspelling it on Mudcat.

I have gone out of my way to be as polite as possible on these threads - all the personal abuse has come from elsewhere
Sorry, but this is simply not the case and poor memory is no excuse.

you have remained as silent on the as you have on Al's attack on the folk song we have both been involved in for decades.
Would this be the same Al who has just posted As for my hatred of traditional song. That is so offensive. I have run folk clubs for much of my life booking many singers specialising in traditional song?
You seem to want to oppose even the people who have promoted the singers of the songs that you and I love.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 09:24 AM

"I have no intention of perpetrating your insults here or giving the names of the victim."
Then please take your unqualified accusations elsewhere Vic
Digging up ancient history is pointless - we have all behaved badly on occasion - as I said, I haven't mentioned Bryan for several years
More mis-spelling - desperate as that
More unsubstantiated accusations
Yess - that would be the same Al who wrote of folk songsI love as "rural sepia"
I find this behaviour as insulting as it gets - if you wwant to make a point bring your evidence otherwise there's little more to be said, I think
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Brimbacombe
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:13 AM

"Digging up ancient history is pointless"

Does this include traditional folk songs? I'm getting a bit confused to be honest.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:27 AM

"Does this include traditional folk songs? I'm getting a bit confused to be honest."
Don't be - folk songs and traditional ballads are no more "ancient history than are Homer, Shakespeare and Dickens
THere are enough of them available not to have to "dig them up"
TRY HERE
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 07:06 AM

"UK folk scene in a much more positive light, Jim. "
There you go again
Bet this one is met with acquiescent silence too
Keep 'em comin'
Jim

I have not the slightest inkling of what this is supposed to mean or how to respond. Sorry, Jim, but if you are not clear in what you say, as often happens, how do you expect people to respond?

Dave the Gnome Eunuch

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:14 PM

Wasn't addressed to you Dave
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM

But it was me That said it, Jim. I was cookieless at the time but made it clear it was me.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,DtG sans biscuit - PM
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM

I'd say it's much more likely to be because everyone but you sees the UK folk scene in a much more positive light, Jim.

How could it not be addressed to me and, even if it wasn't, I can still not make head nor tale of it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:30 PM

Sorry
Didn't recognise the posting name - thought it was a stranger
Perhaps you might explain what you meant by "more positive light" implying that my appeal for having folk clubs were you could hear folk songs wa a 'negative one'
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:32 PM

Thanks for that, Dave. I thought that I was seriously misunderstanding what was going on. I think that it was someone being guilty of misreading posts again which add to the confusion - but it can't be that, I thought, because I posted a reminder about reading posts carefully before replying four hours ago.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:47 PM

'More positive light', Clear as a bell in my book so NOTHING IMPLIED.

WE are all to a man far more positive about UK folk clubs than you are. Add to that festivals, sessions, singarounds, concerts, workshops, seminars, TSF meetings etc., etc.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:08 PM

Absolutely, Steve. I thought it was clear.

Jim, in response to your statement "We protest about only the things we care about, it seems" I replied "I'd say it's much more likely to be because everyone but you sees the UK folk scene in a much more positive light, Jim."

I can still make no sense of your response.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:14 PM

But if the clubs only number 186 (whether that is accurate or not - You put it up as healthy( how van a scene once numbered in the thousands be claimed as "healthy)
If people who know what folks songs are (no problem there) walked away in their thosands and if what you put up as 'folk' is what people are likely to find, it doesn't matter how 'positive people claim it to be, as far as folk songs is concerned it's a dead duck
I believe you are fully aware how far away from folk song has moved - hence your refusal to respond to my analysis - so until you do, any attempts to continue this spiral can only destroy what remains of our respect for each other
I've done my best - your turn now
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:22 PM

AS for those non-existent English youngsters, try looking up Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne, a superb youngster singing all traditional material, and learning very fast, in fact he's providing the music notation in our current book in the Marrow Bones series, all traditional songs. But he's just one of the best of many more, some professionals, some happy to contribute to the local folk scene, just like we were in the 60s.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:28 PM

Many years ago, I got into a protracted and rather heated argument with Bryan Creer on a forum for the ABC notation. But no personal insults or denigrations were exchanged and the upshot was that I've made an effort to attend any session he's at in Whitby and would very much like to visit the places he plays at in his home turf in Sussex (this might happen with some effort and luck). He's a fine player and his tunebooks are great.

But given Jim's sheer nastiness on this forum, I'm not sure Ireland is wide enough to steer clear of any event he might be part of. There have been other people who've single-handedly put me off the events they patronize, but Jim takes the biscuit.

Traditoonal music does not need defenders like that.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:36 PM

"But given Jim's sheer nastiness on this forum"
Perhaps you might point some of this out Jack - nobody has so far
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:42 PM

Bryan - alias "The Snail" on this forum - is indeed an excellent concertina player. He and his colleague from the Lewes Saturday Club, Valmai Goodyear, have done a mighty job of keeping traditional music alive in Sussex, with a packed programme of performers and workshops at their club. The club's seven "Lewes Favourites" tunebooks, plus supplements are a superb compilation of traditional tunes and a testament to the dedication and hard work of these local organisers and performers.

And, while I'm on the subject, how could I forget the years of the running of the Royal Oak club in Lewes by Vic and Tina Smith. Another great club - alas no longer with us, but not because of lack of interest, but because Vic and Tina are enjoying a well-earned retirement from running it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:43 PM

A reminder what seer nastiness looks like"COME ON JACK - HE'S AN OLD GUY GOING ON THE WAY OLD GUYS DO ON A VERY MINORITY WEBSITE."
I don't think you missed it - it was addresed to you and it didn't elicit a comment then
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:06 PM

No it wasn't addressed to anyone who wasn't conducting themselves like the Old Man of the Mountains.

Your belief that it was your right to trample over people's feelings occasioned the comment.

It is a minority website. One cannot help thinking that every time you get into splenetic fury mode, it gets more minority than necessary.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Nemesis
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:15 PM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:36 PM

"But given Jim's sheer nastiness on this forum"
Perhaps you might point some of this out Jack - nobody has so far
Jim


Either 1 you memory is very short
       2 You are lying and trolling becauses u have nothing else to do
       3 you do not realise when you are being nasty
Take your pick

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:20 PM

To be honest, Nem, I genuinely think it's number 3.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:45 PM

Take your pick
No guest -
You produce sone examples to back up your accusations - noobody has so far
While you're at it, you might look out something that equals this piece of personal nastiness
BECAUSE THE WAY HE COMES ACROSS MAKES PEOPLE WHO LOVE TRADITIONAL MUSIC LOOK LIKE HATE-CRAZED BIGOTS. AND HARDLY ANY OF US ARE LIKE THAT. HE'S CONDUCTING BLACK PROPAGANDA AGAINST THE WHOLE TRAD SCENE AND REPELLING PEOPLE WHO MIGHT OTHERWISE BE DRAWN TO IT. WE CAN'T TOLERATE THAT BEHAVIOUR.

Isn't it always the case that the nastiest of people are always the first in line to complain anout being insulted ?

I have insulted no-one here, but plenty have made personal attacks on me ober three threads
There - your starter for ten - back up your claims
The nearedst I have ever come to it is when used the term "balls" instead of courage - but I amended that when it was pointed out
Your turn now fellers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM

A big thank you to Mike for his comments about the way our club was run in Lewes. By the end of 2014, I (Tina a couple of years less) had been running a weekly folk club with a very few short breaks for 50 years. We had done our share! We could have gone on, but frankly, it was no longer our turn. We gave a year's notice to local activists that we wanted to call it a day and we did have two groups of people approach us to take over but when we listed everything we did and explained the hours that it took each week to make sure that we had a good or a full house every week, they both found the hours daunting.
One of the reasons was that Steve Gardham's list above of

festivals, sessions, singarounds, concerts, workshops, seminars, TSF meetings etc., etc.

were actually starting to show more vitality, more entertainment and better musicianship than many folk clubs - including the regular session that you are involved with in Ditchling, Mike - were showing. It's all very well to obsess that there are only 186 folk clubs or whatever in the country but what if they are not where it is at any more. I can still see the top performers that I want to see in concert locally and I seem to be hearing better things elsewhere than clubs from people who were regular floor singers at our club. I still go to paying folk clubs but as an ex-organiser it pains me to sit through a sub-standard floor spot having paid £7 - 10 to get in. An 'all-inclusive' policy is admirable in some ways but when I am listening to something I consider turgid when I have paid to come in is irksome. There is also one club in Sussex that, like Jim Carroll says, seems to have turned its back on folk song. All the photos on their website show guitarists sitting hunched over their music stands. No thank you. I don't go there any more.
Another reason that we left off running clubs was because of our increasing involvement on the management team of the Sussex Traditions Database and website. When the folk club closed, the several thousand pounds that we haa accumulated in the club's bank account was gifted to Sussex Traditions.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:44 PM

Jim, you keep calling for evidence but you ignore it when we give it to you.

No one is denying that the number of folk clubs has fallen, although I seriously question the figure of 186 which has appeared with nothing to substantiate it. A look at the number of venues putting on folk in my own area Pyramid Folk or the London area London folk clubs suggests to me that this considerably underestimates the number. Some of those listed are tune sessions (which are usually strongly traditional), some are concert venues which put on folk as part of a wider programme, but there are plenty of folk clubs in the familiar sense. Some are no doubt not putting on "folk" in the sense that you would like it to be, but that was always the case and I don't seem much here which is very different from when the clubs were in their heyday. There is also the point that clubs are no longer the be all and end all, there are other opportunities and venues to hear folk music of all kinds.

You would have us believe that traditional music in particular is declining, when the evidence of my own ears is that is not the case, at least at the folk clubs, festivals and other events I attend. I have no difficulty in finding traditional songs being performed, but like Vic the standard of performance I can expect to find often keeps me away; however that is a different problem to what you are alleging.

You would also have us believe that folk clubs have been infiltrated by other forms of music, without apparently acknowledging that the folk clubs, taken as a whole, have always embraced the widest meaning of folk. Worse, you claim that folk in its wider sense is damaging traditional music, without a shred of evidence to show that (a) damage is taking place and (b) this is the cause. Worst of all, you accuse those who do not accept your analysis, and who see nothing wrong with clubs presenting a full spectrum of folk, as being hostile to traditional music. Frankly, that is insulting to people who in their own ways have been deeply involved with traditional folk all their lives.

You complain about closed minds, but your own mind is closed to the possibility that other people's experience of the folk scene is more positive than yours.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:15 PM

"But given Jim's sheer nastiness on this forum"
Perhaps you might point some of this out Jack - nobody has so far
Jim

well lets see.....

1) you accuse me of hating traditional music, because I don't share your enthusiasms
2)Dave caused the downfall of the folk revival - because he ran a club not in line with your tastes. And has no balls.
3) Nasty comments about Coope Boyes and Simpson. Lester Simpson has had a long career in folk music and his BBC Derby show, Folkweave that he did with Mick Peat was one of the best outlets for traddy musicians. I didnn't get invited more than the once.
Its a long thread - no doubt a folk revival researcher in a hundred years time will catalogue all the people you have decried. You have insulted many people.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:51 PM

Firstly I'd like to give the details of Al's no. 3) above -" Not really interested in the firm of solicitors"

Then to add to it. - This is just a random selection of his unpleasant comments, you understand - and we will pass over deletions of his posts by moderators:-

4) Aimed at all contributors -   "Please try to behave like adults".
5) EFDSS - "has walked away from the real thing."
6) Me - "It's about time the folk scene embraced adulthood."
7) Steve Gardham "Is there any need fro this nastiness"
8) EFDSS again - "Christ only knows what motivates the present lot - it most certainly ain't folk song"
9) Recent Folk Song researchers - "The behaviour of the New Age Researchers seems to have signed the demolition order"
10) Steve Gardham again "How arrogant can you get"
11) The folk scene generally -"No wonder folk song is in the state it is in The UK" (This was an unsupported comment)
12) Researchers again - "the research side, we have ivory tower researchers who respond to criticism with patronising and insulting and seem to have dedicated themselves to tearing down all past work to make room for their own "
13) R, Badgett - "Please don't be silly"
14) The Watersons - "You could march to what they did but that's about all - totally devoid of interpretation."
15) Me again "Vic whatever I said I said, it's no excuse for your behavior here"
16) Jim Bainbridge - "What world do yuo occupy Jim"
17) Dick Miles - "Stop trying to score points if you haven't done the backup work - it always ends in tears"
18) General - "Carry on knocking lads"

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:52 PM

Jim, a lot of people here and even more not party to Mudcat, put a great slice of their lives into researching, performing and organising what you accept as folk music. From your remote position in exile you come on here and grossly insult our work on a regular basis. That is the biggest insult of all and we will not stand for it!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:39 PM

I think , people may disagree, that one of the best things I've done in my folk clubs, is nurture and help people to become singers. Just telling people that what like is rubbish (which when you've been playing getting on 60 years most things sound like!) is not nice, its not encouraging.

If you help people to make a start - you have to allow them their head. What they do with their talent is not really your call.

I think the first step is to transform people from being passive consumers of music.

I think then maybe its the job of people , other than me to get people interested in their particular kind of music to interest new recruits and convince them of the particular strengths.

I admit I've been a jobbing musician most of my life. Its a trade, I've loved. I don't pretend I have the insight to appreciate the artists that Jim likes. I know they'd get a fair listen in any club I ran. And who knows perhaps they can present their music in a way that is accessible.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 03:18 AM

"Folk ~ are people ~ people who make and craft songs & poems"
Meaningless Ray"

I said this and mean it ~ I am sorry you are unable to to see this ~ what is it that offends you ~ as you have offended me, please?

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 03:23 AM

looking for a home.....
why not store on soundcloud, like everyone else

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 03:57 AM

While were talking about insulting
This is how Jack described how my criticism would be received if I made it publicly - which I wouldn't anyway
All you will do is come across as a grumpy old fool who can't appreciate something obviously gorgeous and whose opinion is utterly worthless.
I could take that personally, if I wished - this sort of thing has become par for the course during these discussions
Some of us have duck's because we need them
There have been numerous references to my age and possibility of senility during the course of these conversations
I will be 78 later this year - I still have my faculties (I'm getting more than a little deaf, I tend to go to bed to sleep, and I can't run as fast as I once did), but it appears I am capable of reducing a forum of adults to having to resort to personal insulting rather than deal with my arguments head on
I put up a quote by Martin Carthy which sums up my own opinions perfectly about folk song - the silence that it received is still ringing in my failing ears
It appears that my opinion is not alone in being dismissed without discussion on this forum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 06:31 AM

far from denigrating folksongs, I believe the folk ballads (and I admit to not knowing all that much) are of great substance - like Shakespeare's sonnets.

However, I think you are unfair putting the onus on the folk clubs, which are a public facility for people to use as they wish. Its a bit like storming into the newspaper room in library and shouting , 'why aren't all you people reading Dickens!'

Some of the reason stuff in middle English like Chaucer, or even Anglo Saxon stuff like Beowulf   enjoys a healthy profile is that - people have popularised it, translated. re-interpreted it.

To proclaim the worthiness of a poem or work of art, is probably the best way to alienate and lose the interest of your class - as any teacher will tell you.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 06:41 AM

Whatever happened to rural sepia Al ?
You said it - take responsibility for it - or was someone posting in your name ?
Folk clubs are there to present folk songs - if they are not, they need to call themselves something else
I would relish waling into a folk club and shouting "Where have all the folksongs gone" - lead me to it
The best way to promote a song (as Martin Carthy said, is to sing it
To take over a folk song club and use it to promote pop-like songs is an act of cultural vandalism
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM

folk clubs, which are a public facility for people to use as they wish.

WRONG. Are Jazz clubs a public facility for people to use as they wish? Or are they gatherings organised by people with a common interest for the pursuit of that common interest?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM

well yes...actually i think you'll find that jazz clubs are pretty much followers of public taste - rather than arbiters of it.

many young jazz players find themselves playing new orleans or slightly later 1930's jazz. that's what the public wants - what there is of it , that wants jazz at all.

I know that amy Roberts, young jazz musician of the year performs mainstream stuff.

years ago Heanor Conservative Club hosted the town's jazz club. The Secretary proudly told me - I said Humphrey Lyttleton, just play play trad Humph! None of that bebop rubbish tonight! And he did!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 07:37 AM

I think I have already made this point at least twice in this thread and others have said similar things: if you are trying to get someone else to take an interest in the music you like, you have to start by respecting them personally and by respecting their tastes. And even better by attempting to understand what they appreciate. If you know what they get out of what they're listening to, you may be able to show them how what you listen to might be rewarding.   And you might find something new to appreciate yourself.

Dismissing somebody else's listening as "pap" is disrespectful and totally counterproductive. People who come across that way are asking to be dismissed as grumpy old fools, and the best they can hope for is to be ignored. At worst they will send out a message that what they're recommending is grumpy old fools' music. Is that what you want to achieve?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 08:15 AM

I would like, if possible, to move this thread away from the narrow unproductive focus on the unpleasantness of the way one of its contributors conducts himself and bring it back to something that might be of broader interest.

The recently issued Spring edition of English Dance & Song, the quarterly magazine circulated to members of the EFDSS, brings us the results of a survey conducted jointly by the EFDSS and Folk 21. The opening paragraph describes its ambit:-

In November 2018, EFDSS undertook a survey of young performers under the age of 30, prompted by concerns from the Folk 21 folk club network that younger musicians are less interested in folk clubs. Those surveyed included artists, students, youth groups and many more; 120 people, from every region, replied. This is what they had to say:

I will only give the main outline findings here :-
82% of them are interested in performing in folk clubs or do perform in folk clubs.
60% of them attend folk clubs as an audience member.
53% of them would be interested in running or programming a folk club.
Very encouraging! There's a lot more important stuff in the survey results as well as all members of the EFDSS will be able to see in the magazine. In my opinion, if you are not a member of EFDSS and cannot effect change from the inside then your criticism of the organisation loses its validity and certainly its effectiveness.
Katy Spicer, the chief executive and artistic director has brought great changes to the organisation in her decade in charge. Not everyone, inculding myself, agrees with everything that she has done but her efforts have been transformative. She is a life-long Arts professional with decades of experience outside folk music. The national profile is now much higher and the funding is huge compared with what it once was and in my most recent visits to C. Sharp House, I have been encouraged by the number of lively young people buzzing about the place.
Katy brings a note of caution in her regular column in the magazine and it reflects her wide experience. She starts off telling us how much she enjoyed the huge Celtic Connections Festival in Glasgow during January at the beginning of the year but says comments that she sees "20- and 30-something year old musicians performing to older generations and rarely to their peers" before continuing:-

So why does this mismatch continue? Why are young people keen to play but not to watch? Before we get too exercised about an inability of the the folk sector to develop younger audiences, we must put this into the context of audiences and participants for other art forms. With the obvious exception of pop music (I use the term widely), audiences for dance, music, theatre and visual arts are, and have been for several decades, if not longer, predominantly over 50 years of age. Speaking as someone of that age bracket (I know, hard to believe!), that isn't necessarily a big issue. And as marketeers have been worrying about this older audience for at least 30 years, one could ask 'what is the problem'? There is clearly a natural cycle that sees teenagers engage with the arts through school or parents, continuing their engagement until work and/or families take up too much time and income, and then returning when children fly the nest and they become more time-rich.
But what if children and young people are not getting those engagement opportunities through school or home? What if those cash-rich and time-rich older generations are disappearing because we have to work until we are older and have smaller pensions? Will we see a radical change in this decades-old cycle of engaged, not engaged, engaged again? With the continual reduction of the curriculum, which for       many children and young people is their only opportunity to
access the arts, in another generation will we find we have
neither the artists or the audiences?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 08:22 AM

(continuing the above post)
I think this show us that the concerns about the future of folk clubs needs to be places in a wider perspective that the one that we have taken so far in this post.
In the latest rounds of local authority budget cuts, my local authority East Sussex County Council announces that it was planning to cut all musical instrument teaching to schools. The outrage and anger was huge and well-supported by the folk music community - but it was reinstated only at the cost of other services that people regard as vital and leaves the worry of what will happen next year.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 08:46 AM

Re Spicer's comment on Celtic Connections: the reason few young people go is the same as why I don't go - it's way too expensive. They use expensive venues and put on expensive acts. Probably more extreme than any folk club in the UK and no example to follow if you're trying to build up a younger audience with less accumulated wealth.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 09:28 AM

As usual, please restrict yourselves to the topic at hand, and refrain from personal quibbling. In other words, don't be tedious.
Thank you.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 10:07 AM

Thank you, Joe, for your timely intervention. I was about respond to an unkind and insulting post about me but instead I decided to try and bring the focus back to something that might bring minds back to the matter in hand with my posts about Katy Spicer and the English Dance & Song. I am really glad that I stayed my hand because the moderators have seen fit to remove the offensive post.
Finally, on this matter, may it be allowed to remain that two posts by Jim Carroll have been removed today and that I have details of their content. This because I fear their content (or existence) may be disputed in future.

With that I give a loud sigh of relief and hope that this thread had now been rescued and that something like a civilised exchange of views can be resumed.

I'd like to start this by supporting Jack Campin's statements about admission prices at Celtic Connections. He is right to say that they are way beyond the means of younger people. Pensioners as well, I might add. The same, at a lower financial level, goes for folk clubs. A couple living on a pension is not always going to be able to afford 2 x £10 admission plus 4 x £4 drinks from their pensions which as we all know are not keeping pace with inflation.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 10:15 AM

"With that I give a loud sigh of relief and hope that this thread had now been rescued and that something like a civilised exchange of views can be resumed. "
Amen to that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 12:55 PM

Since I have been using the text scanner already today, let me use it again to scan another editor's article, this time from the from Ian Anderson the editor of fRoots and part of his piece in the Spring 2019 edition refers to an aspect of what we are calling here UK 60s Folk Club Boom He refers to the fact that quite a number of us who were totally involved in those years are now..... (how can I put this without being accused of ageism?)... getting on in years.... (Is that acceptable?) .... should be being recorded (or recording ourselves) as part of a sort of folk music oral history project. He writes:-

We're also at a crucial point in the history of the folk community. It's now 50-heading-towards-60 years since the fabled 1960s 'folk boom', when every town, many villages and most colleges had a folk club and the modern folk festival movement kicked off. But age and the reaper are starting to be unkind to the participants. I mentioned this briefly in our Summer issue last year, when we shone a tail light on the 1965 Keele Folk Festival: that it's important to pass on the experiences of that generation - if only so as to prevent people wastefully re-inventing the wheel.
The point was that Keele did something which many currently popular 'boutique' festivals outside the folk world now do: they included talks and discussions. I'm recently back from this year's Folk Alliance bash in Far Canadia, and one of the things they include each year is a public conversation titled Wisdom Of The Elders. A few UK festivals have public artist interviews, often conducted admirably by our very own Colin Irwin, but I believe it would be a fine thing to extract some wisdom out of the people who did stuff too - organisers, presenters, producers and the like - even audience members.
There seems to have been very little attempt to so this, either as public infotainment, or as input to the various degree courses concerned with folk music, There certainly doesn't seem - to my knowledge - to be much done in the way of oral history interview recording, And whilst there are the occasional mentorship schemes for career oriented musicians, I don't know of any directed at those needed to power the future infrastructure. There is so much valuable experience to be collected and passed on before it's too late -and it's fascinating and often entertaining too, dammit, not just dry formal learning.

It is a subject that has come up in Sussex Traditions management meetings in a slightly different context.
Every time I meet Steve Roud these days he says something like, "Have you started writing down or recording all the details of your encounters with traditional singers and musicians yet? You must! A lot of what you can tell is vital evidence."
So far I haven't.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 02:37 PM

Well done, Vic!
Jim himself has a lot of very useful information of this sort, particularly concerning Walter Pardon.

In my own area a number of us have set up the Hull Folk Archive and it is deposited in our state of the art History Centre. It comprises all of the hard copy records/ photos etc of Folk Union One, Green Ginger Morris and much more. The recordings are being digitised currently. All of the guests at the club are listed (early 60s onward) and the local Folk magazine for the region 'Folk News' is there with every issue, all indexed. My own recordings from tradition will be deposited once I have shuffled off, but they're all online in the BLSA anyway. Once all the digitisation is complete we have enough cash left in the pot to set up a website.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 04:14 PM

rural sepia...yeh! le mot juste!

Its not that I don't feel sorry for past generations being flogged, forced marriages, transported, hanged in chains, etc.

i just feel more empathy with the people I live among. people for the most part with tough unfulfilled lives. The folk club offers an exit from society where everyone has expectations to Who was it said....lives of quiet desperation.live up to. The folk club for me as a young man, was an escape into anarchy, self-expression -and others seeking refuge from ghastly values of the beeb. AS I grew up it was my privilege to show others the escape route.

I had three ( My Mum said) great uncles who died in 1914-18 conflict. But my Mum was born in 1919. I didn't any of these blokes, and if I knew the relatives who grieved for them, they never mentioned their tragedies.

So I don't write songs about my depth of feeling for people I never knew. Even though since the success of Eric bogle -its been regarded as a favourite 'folk' subject. Sepia tint and all. And if that's all it is to you, and the people who come to folk clubs hoping for something the TV won't supply, mean nothing. Folk music is as good as dead.

Folk music is about living sentient people. Not just old songs. And if it hasn't. It has no relevance and will deserve its death.

But you and I know - that will not happen. These old songs contain magic. Some of the people who turn up wanting to sing Ed Sheeran ( and anyone else that's had a hit since Leapy Lee - when I last looked) will find their way to the real stuff.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 06:55 PM

These old songs contain magic
They certainly do and I love them and cannot really live without them. At the same time some of the modern songwriters ring the bell for me so clearly that sometimes I feel that they are speaking directly to me.
There is a lot of disagreement about who first said There are two Kinds of Fools: One says "This Is Old, Therefore It Is Good." The other says, "This Is New, Therefore It Is Better." J-J Rousseau? William Ralph Inge? John Brunner? Bishop of Ripon? It doesn't really matter who said it. All that matters is that we don't end up looking foolish and we let both live side by side.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 02:55 AM

I'm reminded of John Miles

Music was my first love, it will be my last
Music of the future, music of the past

Not a folk song but has a grand sentiment :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:15 AM

"Jim himself has a lot of very useful information of this sort, particularly concerning Walter Pardon."
Yes I have, and have been trying to give it away for several decades now - the waves of indifference have been deafening
I see little reason to continue trying
Some of Walter's recordings have been lying somewhere in a cupboard in The British Library since the 1980s and while this indifference (and even hostility) towards what our traditional singers have to offer, will probably continue to lie there
The only reason I can see, to become involved in such a project as Vic described, would be to put some life into what appears to me to be a 'Dying Culture', otherwise it can only be a trip down memory lane for those who were there
Walter's views of what 'folk song' means seems to have been rejected, certainly by the researchers, and I would guess that very few of the younger singers have ever heard of him - his albums are mainly deleted with little chance of their being resurrected and there is very little of him on line

I have just been sorting out out Harry Cox recordings, mainly those made by Bob and Grace Thomson and others, a little before he died - fascinating stuff
Alan Lomax recorded Harry at length, singing and taking - one particular interview my Lomax and MacColl stands out, but there are others
I'm pretty sure from quick visits that much information lies in the Goldstein recordings
I've always wondered whether Kennedy and his team did any more than head-hunt songs - I know for certain some was done - if there is more, it lies with the rest of the Kennedy collection awaiting a customer
Recording stories of those who talked to traditional singers is certainly one way of collecting information, but it seems a long-winded way of going about thing while there is still a lot of 'horses mouth' information to be gathered

I also read the EFDSS survey of young people's involvement in English (the EFDSS never went in for British or Irish) clubs - on the surface, very heartening, but remembering Rod Stradling's editorial comment: "The EFDSS seems to be almost entirely interested in this new 'folk' music - EDS now contains almost nothing related to traditional music and song": it doesn't leave me with much hope for the future

I came to the conclusion some time ago that if folk song (the real stuff) is to have a future in England, it will only be achieved when people sort out what is is and what they want to do with it - maybe a Real Folk Song Society' to replace the one that seems to have forgotten what folk song is

There has been a certain irony during this discussion - I was castigated as having "personally insulted people" by critcising EFDSS -
Steve leapt on his chair and demanded an apology when I suggested that the EFDSS wasn't doing its job
I was involved when the EFDSS refused to shift premises because of its respect for 'Dear Cecil', yet now the work of Sharp and his contemporaries have gone by the board as "idealistic", "unrepresentative" and "outdated"
The music that is now claimed to be folk has nothing to do with that researched, collected and anthologised by Sharp and his colleagues - even Child as become someone who didn't know his folk ballad arse from his formal poetry elbow

It seems to me that an urgent visit to our folk roots is very much in order
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM

Maybe the clue is in the name as to why they don't do British or Irish. The English Folk Dance and Song Society. This does pose an interesting question though. Have the traditions of other nations, brought by immigration, now been assimilated into English Folk Culture? I would like to think so. Maybe if folk clubs were to showcase more West Indian or Pakistani or, more recently, East European folk music, alongside English music of course, they may begin to attract a wider audience. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:40 AM

Dave , i mentioned that some 35 years ago at a meeting which was chaired by jim lloyd no one took any notice

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:30 AM

The thing is, theres not many of us come from just one place racially.

I was born and grew up in Lincolnshire, but none of my family were.

One night on the way to a gig, Christy Moore came on the radio.

He said, the worst thing you can do as folksinger is turn your back on your roots.

all very well for you, i thought, your family always lived in Ireland, where you were born.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:38 AM

"British or Irish. The English Folk Dance and Song Society."
To pretend that folk songs, and particularly ballads do't have their counterparts elsewhere and that foreign oral traditions have nothing in common with English ones is as blinkered 'Little English' as you can get
The early EFDSS co-operated with foreign fellow researchers to the point of stumping up a workable definition
It's always struck me how far advanced America and several of the Eastern European researchers into the traditions were (Bronson and Child were Yanks), Child corresponded with Scandinavian researchers
Ireland had a far longer living tradition than did Britain
You expand your knowledge by travelling and meeting strangers, not waitinbg until they come to you, and certainly 0not skipping up and down the Main Hall of Cecil Sharp House
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:58 AM

Roots - hah - don't talk to me about roots!

Born in Lancashire, raised in Glasgow, back to Lancashire, college in Leeds (passport job, that last one), 9 years in London, 40+ years in Sussex.

Roots? Mmm... Most of my father's ancestors were Lancashire miners or weavers. Most of my mother's were East Anglian backsmiths or tailors. But I've never been down a mine or struck an anvil in my life - though I did make a few shirts in my younger days. So the idea of me singing songs about mining or smithing - or making shirts - has always struck me as a ludicrous one.

My childhood musical "roots" were of the family sat round my grandparents' piano, belting out songs from the 1920s and 1930s - their era - with the occasional great-aunt turning up with a banjo and giving us music hall stuff, comic songs and popular stuff from George Formby and Gracie Fields. Then the radio gave me big bands, Django Reinhardt, Bill Haley, Lonnie Donegan, Les Compagnons de la Chanson and a thousand others.

The idea of exploring music from everywhere, in all styles and of all periods, is one that has been embedded in my consciousness from those early days and is there still. I just can't resist a good tune.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:16 AM

Nothing you write diminishes in any way the 'roots' nature of folk song
They may hav originated from blacksmiths and sailors, but the emotions and experiences they express are both universal and timeless, something that can be still used by all to communicate their own feelings
That's what our centuries old ballads have been sung continuously over all those centuries and why there are over 200 versions of Barbara Allen
You can't say that about 'Down At The Old Bull and Bush', nor will you ver be able to
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:25 AM

My post, Jim, was not about diminishing folk song in the slightest - it was about the difficulty, for me, of having roots that mean something musically to me, given my upbringing.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:40 AM

'there are over 200 versions of Barbara Allen
You can't say that about 'Down At The Old Bull and Bush', nor will you ever be able to'

I admit that would be a challenging conversation for many of us.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM

"My post, Jim, was not about diminishing folk song in the slightest"
I didn't think it was Will - I have great respect for what you have to say and the experience it seems to derive from
The problems with long arguments is that you end to pick up things that are said and apply them to past comments - is that as complicated as it sounds ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM

Not complicated in the slightest, Jim - quite understandable.

Without trying to sound like a wet lettuce, one of the annoying things about my childhood and upbringing was the constant moving from one place to another - country to country, town to town - the uprooting of friendships, the sense of not really belonging in the area where I lived. To this day if someone says, "Where are you from, originally?", I suppose I would answer "Lancashire" - but I feel little affinity with it. Living in Scotland made a big impressions on me as a kid, and life in cities like Leeds and London also left their mark.

I've been in my Sussex village for 40+ years - so I'm not quite a foreigner...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 07:04 AM

"Jim himself has a lot of very useful information of this sort, particularly concerning Walter Pardon."
Yes I have, and have been trying to give it away for several decades now - the waves of indifference have been deafening
I see little reason to continue trying

No, Jim. You must! Any recording of Walter Pardon is important to those of us who care about these things. Have you tried contacting the
East Anglian Traditional Music Trust? The first sentence on their website states:-

Our website is a resource for the Traditional Music, Song, Dance and Customs of East Anglia, the Eastern regions of the British Isles. We promote, research and create projects about traditional music performed in East Anglia in the past as well as looking at how our traditions continue to be passed on into the the 21st Century.

... and your material should be of prime importance to them. Sadly, the administrator is no longer the estimable Katie Howson; she has recently retired, but after a dip when she first left, the organisation seems to be getting on its feet again. Have a good look through the website and see if this is the sort of place that would be suitable for your precious material. Alternatively, we will be spending a weekend with Katie and John quite soon and - with your permission - we could take this up with them to see what they suggest.

Some of Walter's recordings have been lying somewhere in a cupboard in The British Library since the 1980s and while this indifference (and even hostility) towards what our traditional singers have to offer, will probably continue to lie there
... and this is very sad. I went to a presentation be their chief archivist at a WOMAD festival a couple of years ago and they are clearly doing a lot of great work. The problem is that our atrocious government has been cutting their funding year by year in a decade of pernicious austerity and they are still in the situation where more material of all sorts is coming in more quickly than they can process and categorise it, so their current main concern is to provide proper storage conditions for material and hoping for better funding in the future. I would have to say that this is a pretty disgraceful position for what is still one of the richest countries in the world

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 07:07 AM

"Les Compagnons de la Chanson" referred to by Goon Harry Secombe as "The Mushrooms of Chance",

I remember seeing his shaving act at The Hackney Empire where some of my very early musical roots came from. Two Ton Bessie O'Shea and her ukelele, Max Wall who Malcolm Price told me owned a lovely old Martin guitar and various other left over artists from the Music Hall era.

I believe one or maybe two people here consider music hall somewhat low-brow and not worthy but that was the material that brought much pleasure to the earlier generations in my family.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 07:18 AM

Will Fly:-
I've been in my Sussex village for 40+ years - so I'm not quite a foreigner...
Bloody Incomers!!! Coming to our county and diluting our racial purity!

signed
Vic Smith
(Sussex resident for 51 years. Four grandparents from Shetland, Scotland, England and Ireland. Born in Edinburgh, with a naval father so as a boy lived in Winchester, Leith, Gosport, Ayrshire, London, Oxfordshire, Portsmouth and so can justly claim to be Sussex through and through.)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:24 AM

Roots.
My grandparents had large repertoires of songs which I recorded in the 60s before they passed on. Only one song among them (Derby Ram) perhaps 2, would have been accepted as part of the 54 corpus. Most are music hall songs or parodies of them from the 1890s. Luckily I don't have any prejudice and sing a sizable number of their songs and have done so in folk clubs since the 60s. My mother (95 and still alive) had a smaller repertoire including 'Still I Love him' in an apparently unique version which we both still sing. (It's going on our next album). My uncles sang folk songs they learnt during WWII in the Navy. I sing some of these, not all totally blue (and I don't mean navy blue). I know how lucky I am.
Roots.
I was 15 before I went beyond Yorkshire's boundaries and I still live only a couple of miles from where I was born.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:36 AM

Will reply later Vic - when the .... sun goes in
Can't think of a way to get out of weeding the drive
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:46 AM

Hmm OK - but that will mean that I have to go and do the gardening jobs that I have been putting of!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 10:34 AM

For most of our generation - music hall had negative connotations. The songs OAP's sang before they raffled a bag of sugar. Leonard sachs on the cringemaking Good Old Days.

One poor little lad who used to come to me to learn what I knew about Status Quo's guitar style (they were short lessons) his dad was the Chairman of the Music hall Society. His Dad used to dress up like Dan leno and little Dave and the rest of the family were dressed in Victorian attire to make up The good old days audience at The City varieties, leeds.

the game changers for me were the Cosmotheka Duo - the Seally brothers. they made those of who listened understand just why folksong and music hall were so closely intertwined - and really from that, the interdisciplinary nature of folksong.

The late Ian Campbell said to me the thought the Seally lads were the most significant thing to happen to happen in Folk music in ten years at least. ian said, suddenly I realised that my Dad - even though he was singing a Scottish folk song - the style was pure Al Jolson .

And only one version of The bull and Bush....i wouldn't put money on it. how many versions were there of christmas day in the Workhouse? The music hall artistes had to know their audience, had to know their lives, had to speak very directly to them.

Like all serious artists. Give it your attention and you will learn.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 11:31 AM

I learned music hall songs at my grandfather's knee - because he used to sit me there and sing them to me. Long before Leonard Sachs and "The Good Old Days - which I also thought was naff.

So I heard songs which I still love today, and perform one or two now and then - "Mary Ellen At The Church Turned Up", "The Postman's Holiday", "'Arry, 'Arry, 'Arry", etc. One of the things I suppose I learned, from listening to their records and knowing the sort of theatres they performed in, was the need to project one's voice and personality when singing and playing. Not volume, necessarily, but pitch and clarity and diction - which they had in spades.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:18 PM

My father was born in Poland as was his mother. His father was born in Russia. My mother was born in Lancashire. Her maternal grandmother was Welsh. Her paternal grandfather was from Staffordshire. And I still think there is nothing wrong or even slightly nationalistic about an organisation that promotes English music and dance. The Irish, Welsh and Scottish all celebrate the culture of their own nations. Why not the English?

The most successful folk festival I ever ran headlined with Roy Bailey. We had a ceilidh with folk rock band. Further entertainment was provided by the Lancashire based Orlek Ukrainian dance troupe and we had a story telling session with Tuup from Guyana and Derek (as featured earlier in this thread) from Lancashire. The story telling was cleverly named Tu-up, one down :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:40 PM

Right - sorted (sort of)
Vic
Walter's recordings
As I've moaned interminably, we'a attempted to give our archive to people wh can house and use it, without success
I'm a litle reluctant to cherry-pick, but would like the whole archive to find a home where it will not just be stored (we have a loft if it ever comes to that) but will be used as a permanent resource for building repertoires and for research
All our collecting has involved, where possible, interviewing the singers at length about their approaches to singing, with a great deal of success as far as Walter and some of the Travellers are concerned   
I could, as Al suggests, put it up on PCloud and throw it open, but that, I feel, would be as much a waste of time as has been offering some of it to posters on this forum
An archive of this size needs actively promoting, explaining and, where the opportunity arises, adding to

I'm pretty sure Terry Yarnell (Our Man in Surrey) has approached John Howson - John and Katie run a business and that's not what we have in mind
I hit on the idea of getting a tradition-based club to take over a copy to use for their residents and audience, but that fell by the wayside - Lewes turned us down flat and won't get asked again
There are enough copies to ascertain (in Ireland) to ascertain that the material won't disappear, so no great worries on that front
I have said what I feel about the state of the clubs; It strikes me that the material we hold would be an ideal springboard for putting the folk back into folk - the singing and music, the lectures, radio programmes seminars, deleted albums... and masses and masses of published articles and books
EFDSS would be ideal if they were doing their job - they are not
The scene has no identity any more,and no agreement as to what is meant by folk

Clare County Library showed what could be done - they took our Clare Collection, selected the songs, two librarians worked on them for two years and produced a very useable and extensive website
Unfortunately, when the two librarians retired the site became static - we could no longer add to it
One thing they did manage was to get the council to employ to singers to visit County schools and introduce the kids to Clare songs via our recordings (we had no involvement or say in this)
Out site is widely accessed and local people are now singing teh songs of the now dead singers
The next step is to get Limerick Uni to do the same with the Traveller material - an idea already mooted by one of the instigators of the singing course there who is already involved in Traveller culture
While the scene in England faffs about persuading itself that all is well, that is not going to happen there

I have always believed that the answer to sing, playing and learning from our oral cultures is by taking and using what the singers sang and said - they may not always have been at their peak when they were recorded, but they had something none of us "borrowers" have - first hand experience - I believe that invariably showed up in their singing (sorry - I don't count singing pop songs of yesteryear part of anything other than family entertainment)

'Nuff prating for now - more later
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:40 PM

On the subject of music hall songs I must admit it was with some surprise I discovered a lot of the music I thought was folk was in fact music hall. Previously mentioned "Star of the County Down"; Pretty Polly Perkins and her Geordie counterpart Cushie Butterfield. That just reminded me of another, "Keep your feet still Geordie Hinny". Seeing as even folk aficionados can get confused, is it really so bad to have these songs at folk clubs?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 01:16 PM

The thing about Soundcloud. Everyone all over the world can get access AND
You can inform all the learned institutions in the world of your site and its scope with a single email!

Plus think of all the people who couldn't make it to visit England, or a museum - most of em can make it to a computer to log on to your website.

Just because we're a load of twats on Mudcat, who don't value your weighty words, doesn't mean the entire world is composed of stinkers like us.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 01:17 PM

we had a story telling session with Tuup from Guyana

What a lovely man! We met him in 2007 in Whitby during one of the four extensive tours that we organised for the great Gambian Kora player, Jali Sheriffo Konteh. Both Tuup and Sherrifo were booked at the lovely Musicport festival there. Sheriffo had a concert spot in the Pavilion Theatre on the Friday night and Tuup was very impressed. He was mainly running workshops and children's events but he had one spot in the main hall; he had a story about a kora player but it would be brilliant if Sherrifo could play gently behind him and then Tuup would move to the side at various places in the story to allow Sherrifo's kora to be brought to the fore and he could play some of his virtuosic flourishes before giving way to Tuup's story again.
Sheriffo's response was his usual one - "No Problem". Well the two artists and the sound crew all had busy schedules do there was no time for a sound check and they just had to do it. You would not have known that this was a seat-of-the-pants job for it sounded like it had been throroughly rehearsed. It was one of many highlights of the brilliant times that we had on those tours.
At the end of the festival, a spontaneous session and party developed in the green room and a session with Tuup playing djembé, Sherrifo the kora and the two fiddlers from the Warsaw Village Band - Happy Days!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 02:12 PM

"The thing about Soundcloud. "
I think our Clare collection is constructed on Soundcloud
I use freebie PCloud to fulfill requests for material
Doesn't answer any of the other problems I mentioned Al - thanks anyway
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 02:56 PM

Jim,
I will address the positive aspects of your last posting of 12.40.

You are not the only one with a large archive of this sort of material.
Plenty of others would also like a proactive repository for their archive. Like you most are already having partial success, but as you have been informed many times we are in competition with other priorities constantly, especially in these troubled times, facing cutbacks right left and centre.

You complain, in some ways rightly, about the English weakness in comparison with Scotland , Ireland and Wales. This has always been the case with all matters concerning people's heritage. This is largely down to the Irish, Scots and Welsh being traditionally in the shadow of their much more powerful neighbour. The patriotism in the other 3 countries is much more evident than in England. Hence the great lack of interest of successive governments in English folk heritage. We are very lucky to have people at EFDSS who have managed to gather enough funding to put all of the early folksong collections online.

Regarding getting the sort of interest you are asking for, this would require funding. As I say there is a lot of competition and priorities have to be made. Here's a for-instance, if the choice had been between your archive and Carpenter being put online, which would you have gone for? If I tell you that the cost of sorting, cataloguing, indexing, studying, digitising that collection cost the funders hundreds of thousands of pounds that will give you some idea of the scale of operation required. Yes, I'm aware that much of your archive is already processed, but there is still a cost to housing it, both in an institution and online.

I know for a fact because I have been involved in several of the EFDSS projects over the last 5 years and in their limited space premises they have taken in at least 6 large physical collections that needed housing, cataloguing, etc. Archive owners are dropping like flies as you would expect as most of us started in the 60s or before. It won't be long before C#H is bursting at the seams, if it isn't already.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:06 PM

>>>>>>I don't count singing pop songs of yesteryear part of anything other than family entertainment<<<<<<

That's fine, Jim. As it's highly unlikely you're ever going to influence what people sing on the British folk scene we can go with that.


But just for the record and so you don't misconstrue this statement, what the rest of us have agreed on is that in folk clubs you are likely to hear

1) traditional folk songs
2) contemporary folk songs (okay in the folk idiom)

Unfortunately there is no hard dividing line between 2) and a whole swathe of other genres, so other things are going to creep in there occasionally. Like the others on here I'm quite happy with this.

In our experience the vast majority of what one hears in an English folk event still comprises 1) and 2).

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:06 PM

A detailed response to Jim's on Walter Pardon
As I've moaned interminably, we'a attempted to give our archive to people wh can house and use it, without success
I'm a litle reluctant to cherry-pick, but would like the whole archive to find a home where it will not just be stored (we have a loft if it ever comes to that) but will be used as a permanent resource for building repertoires and for research
Storing magnetic tape is a costly business - temperature controlled conditions - reasonably frequent rewinding to prevent print through - check of physical tape deterioration etc. In my opinion it is not the articles themselves that are so important as what they contain. Once several copies have been made in different digital formats and stored on a variety of machine and 'Cloud' destinations (though ultimately they are all a variety of hard drive) then the tapes themselves become less important. They still need to be catalogued however so that librarians/archivists/researchers can access them easily. Then they either have to be fully transcribed (very time consuming and expensive unless you can get good volunteers) or a skilled person needs to provide a synopsis so that all possible research or interest aspects are listed against tape timings. Reg Hall did this for quite a number of tapes from my BBC Sussex interview collection so that when, for example, the Sussex Military History Society approached me for 'World War One' anecdotes, I know exactly which CDr and how far through my long Gordon Hall interview I had to get to get what they were after

An archive of this size needs actively promoting, explaining and, where the opportunity arises, adding to
So you can imagine our problem with the 5,400 plus and growing items on the Sussex Traditions database. Also you will need a good efficient search engine that can do simple and advanced searches - and that is not as easy as it sounds as I am finding.

John and Katie run a business and that's not what we have in mind
They do. Well it is John that runs the Veteran record label as a business and they would not be interested in storing tapes or making digital copies available. Katie (at least until recently) was the mainstay of the EATMT Trust and their website shows that they have an Archive section. This is not a commercial business.
As a matter of interest, John's extensive collection of field recording tapes are now stored and maintained by the British Museum National Sound Library.

I hit on the idea of getting a tradition-based club to take over a copy to use for their residents and audience, but that fell by the wayside - Lewes turned us down flat and won't get asked again
I am rather puzzled as to why you think that a folk club would be as suitable place for valuable tapes to be used by random club members, digital copies perhaps - but this far from the activities that the likes of Valmai & Bryan take on. They run guest nights, sessions, tune-learning nights but they do not operate a folk song archive.

EFDSS would be ideal if they were doing their job
Again I think that they would not see this as part of their role - and the British Museum National Sound Library is within walking distance of their headquaters. On the other hand, if you were to offer to add your material to their remarkable The Full English Digital Archive I'm sure that they would show interest (I'm not sure where they are on post-World Two collections. Certainly their first concern was with the Victorian/Edwardian collectors. Steve Gardham may be able to help on this.)

Clare County Library showed what could be done - they took our Clare Collection, selected the songs, two librarians worked on them for two years and produced a very useable and extensive website
Unfortunately, when the two librarians retired the site became static - we could no longer add to it
This is curious. If two librarians were producing what you call "a very useable and extensive website" as part of their workload, why were they not replaced after the retired?
Obviously, I cannot help your at all with the various Irish institutiona and as always, I steer away from your opinion and comments of the English scene and your ongoing comments on what is and what isn't folk song. Anyway I am responding to the matter surrounding Walter Bulwer because that is what I am interested in. I hope you find some of what I have written helpful.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:51 PM

Doesn't answer any of the other problems I mentioned Al - thanks anyway
Jim

Maybe so. Perhaps you are thinking too small though.

You know places like the big shopping centres in England employ an agency to create a cyber town, where people can wander the streets with their computer.

They sell advertising space to finance it.

Its got to be a mini fraction of the price of physical museum.

Plus it can't burn down!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 05:58 AM

Jim, for all our disagreements here I believe most of us recognise and value the importance of your work and the archives which contain it. However as Steve has pointed out, yours is not the only archive which needs preserving for the future and which is struggling to find hte resources to ensure this.

Your wishes for the Walter Pardon material are admirable but ambitious. I don't think you should attribute the lack of response to a lack of interest, even less of hostility to traditional music. However what you are seeking would require a considerable endowment to ensure not only that the materials could be safely stored but also to allow for their interpretation, and for this to continue for the foreseeable future. Few institutions, including EFDSS, are awash with money and such funding as they have is usually earmarked for particular projects. It seems doubtful that any would be willing to take it on, however much they might wish to, without an assurance that the necessary funding was also available. If, as I understood you to say, the materials are in the British Library then you can at least be reassured that they should be properly looked after.

My guess is that in Clare you were fortunate to find a couple of librarians who took a personal interest in the material and were either able to find funding or (more likely) found ways to do it within their existing budget. When they retired, their successors had different priorities. That is how things often are, I'm afraid.

I agree with Al's suggestion to put the material on-line where it will be accessible to anyone who takes an interest, perhaps together with a website to direct people to the right sources. Such a thing could be done relatively cheaply, on a scale where you might be able to get crowdfunding. It would of course require some considerable effort, and if you have not already done so I would urge you to find some younger enthusiasts who may be willing to help with this and to act as your "literary executors" when you are no longer around.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 10:15 AM

Howard
I agree totally that ours isn't the only archive - far from it,
Some time in the 90s (may have been earlier) a group of us met with the then National Sound Archive in Exhibition road to discuss raising support fo a national folk Archive, the included reps from NSA, Reg Hall, Malcolm Taylor and around dozen others whose names escape me but one was an adviser on raising funding (I still have the minutes)
Eventually the NSA absorbed by the British Library (never been sure of the wisdom of that), and the present sound archive was put on line
As an admirer and regular used of that website, knowing what it potentially available, I know it represents only a fraction of recordings and research on folk song
I'm not pleading a special case for our archive, I am saying it is one of many which will either disappear ot go elsewhere if England (specifically) doesn't get a grip - Scotland has shown the way with their magnificent 'Kist O'Riches'
The BBCs largest and most important collection o British and Irish material still remains unavailable for public access, as does such important collections like those of Grange, Mike Yates, Reg Hall, Roy Palmer, MacColl and Seeger, Keith Summers, Bob and Jaqqueline Patten....

Pleading poverty o behalf of EFDSS rings very hollow in the face of what they have spent their money on in the way of making sound examples available - I can't fault their work on Sharp's diaries but am puzzled by the enthusiasm for this on the one hand and the tearing down of Sharp's researches by the present researchers on the other

Either the EFDSS starts doing what it was set up for or somebody else has to if important collections such as those I've listed are not going to remain unused

Whether this neglect is down to lack of funding or disinterest is worth discussing - I have attempted top give my opinion - disinterest wins hands down if a thread where people would rather discuss Ed Sheeran and Music Hall songs instead of folk songs and ballads and where the views of such a prominent figure in folk song as Martin Carthy are pointedly ignored is anything to go by.

I've suggested what might be able to happen if those still interested in folk song want it to
If people are genuine in their support of EFDSS, why not a fundraising campaign combined with a stream of letters suggesting what needs to be done
If they wont move on it, then somebody has to

I know there are admirable efforts on the part of some regions, but not enough to make a difference
The situation needs to b tackled nationally

By the way , our archive was not the result of two enthusiastic librarians - afr from it
We approached the County Library and they appointed to librarians who had no connection with the music to deal with it
They then approached the Council who appointed two singers to use the collection to get schoolchildren interested

Ireland nationally has become aware of both the cultural value of the Traditional Arts and of its value in drawing visitors to the country
We are lucky enough to live in a County which is, we are told whenever we are asked where we live, "The home of traditional Irish music"   
Last night, after watching the thrilling conclusion to ‘Baptiste’ we moved on to an Irish station where we watched a programme of tradition music played on the streets of our County Town (a tribute to the now quite ill box player Tony McMahon, and then the first of a series of six programmes devoted to mostly young women, unaccompanied concertina players   
Next week it will be women pipers, then flute players, then fiddlers, then box players, then hopefully women singers
This is all down to the fact that the Irish trad music scene not takes its future seriously and is carving its own path
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 12:17 PM

>>>>>>Sharp's Researches<<<<<

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 01:12 PM

Scotland has shown the way with their magnificent 'Kist O'Riches'
The BBCs largest and most important collection o British and Irish material still remains unavailable for public access, as does such important collections like those of Grange, Mike Yates, Reg Hall, Roy Palmer, MacColl and Seeger, Keith Summers, Bob and Jaqqueline Patten....
Pleading poverty o behalf of EFDSS rings very hollow in the face of what they have spent their money on in the way of making sound examples available - I can't fault their work on Sharp's diaries but am puzzled by the enthusiasm for this on the one hand and the tearing down of Sharp's researches by the present researchers on the other.
Either the EFDSS starts doing what it was set up for or somebody else has to if important collections such as those I've listed are not going to remain unused

Jim, there is a major flaw in your thinking here. You want someone to store your very important Walter Pardon interview tapes and make them available to researchers etc. Then you praise the job that Kist O'Riches (Tobar an Dualchais) does in Scotland is doing. If I went to them and asked them to store my recordings of songs and stories recorded from Scottish Travellers, they would say no. They would tell that storage was not their function but that if I would arrange for good quality digitised recordings to be sent to them, they would be delighted to include all the ones that were not duplicating what they already had on line. They would also say that my recordings would have to wait whilst they checked recording quality, duplication of existing items, copyright and ownership issues and they would have to be properly catalogued. This would happen in time but my recordings would have to go to the back of the queue which is held up be funding issues.
Tobar an Dualchais database has over 40,000 oral recordings. The EFDSS Full English Digital Database has over 80,000 items.* Both are wonderful freely available, easily searched facilities. Anyone with an interest in the traditions of Scotland or England should be jumping for joy and discovering the many delights that they offer. Neither think their task is anywhere like complete. Both complain of funding issues that are retarding their work. That is in spite of the fact that that Scottish website can state:-

We are very grateful to all of this year’s funders: Aberdeen Asset Management, Bòrd na Gàidhlig, Gaelic Language Promotion Trust, Paulsen Familiae Foundation, Royal Conservatoire of Scotland, Saint Andrew’s Society of New York State, Sabhal Mòr Ostaig, Scottish Funding Council and University of Edinburgh.

The Full English site seems to me to be approaching their priorites in a historical order point of view with the early collectors being first and the great post-2nd World War collectors having to wait their turn. (Could Steve Gardham put me right on this if my assumption is wrong?)

* One of the differences between Kist o'Riches and Full English is that the former contains examples of the singing of Vic Smith whilst the latter does not!!!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 01:50 PM

"You want someone to store your very important Walter Pardon interview tapes and make them available to researchers etc. "
No Vic, I want them to be taken and used
We put our collection in the NSA and they put them in a cupboard - not what we want
We took our Clare Collection to the County Library and they put them on line
Works for me
THe recording qual;ity of our recordings has been good enough to have been used on around a dozen albums
If this is not a job for EFDSS, who already have the BBC collection, the Pat Shudham Shaw recordings, and numerous others - for listening, why should they not acquire (not buy) those I mentioned (I wish people wouldn't suggest it is only our collection I am concerned about -I have made that clear it isn't)
If these collections are not gathered up they will be lost
Ours was the clollection that inspired the National Sound Archive from almost exclusively gathering non British material to expanding to our indigenous material yet is still lies languishing in a cupboard somewhere

Steve
Was your Sharp comment a question ot do you doubt he carried out any research
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 02:04 PM

Just so there's no misunderstanding
Our Archive is fully digitised, and indexed
Most of our personal cllection is transcribed textually, some musically
It's a full, redy-to eat meal
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 02:54 PM

Obviously I can't speak for the EFDSS and I don't know their reasons, but I suspect that funding remains the issue. The money they have from Heritage Lottery Fund and other sources for the Full English will be ring-fenced for that specific purpose and they can't just spend it as they please.

Vic has pointed out the due diligence that Kirst of Riches has to carry out before putting anything online. That all costs money. No institution of this type will take on a project unless it has assurances that the funding is available. I work for a charity, although not in the arts, and I see this at first hand. I also see how complex and difficult applying for funding can be, the range of outcomes a successful project must achieve beyond its immediate ones, and how many very worthwhile projects fail for one reason or another to be win a grant.

I am surprised you have dismissed approaching the Howsons because they run a record label. I can think of few others who are likely to have a better idea whether any institutions in East Anglia might be interested in having, or financially supporting, your project. They have retired from EAMT but still live in the region and are still very much involved with traditional music.

Whilst I agree it would be better if a national or at least regional institution were to take it on, this may not happen. If it really is as simple as you suggest, then why not do it yourself? Genuine question, not a dig. If all the work of digitising and cataloguing has been done, then the costs shouldn't be that great and could perhaps be covered by crowdfunding.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 03:35 PM

" but I suspect that funding remains the issue"
I believe it is their priorities that are an issue and they, of all people, are in the position to either mount an appeal for funds for specific projects or go cap in hand to the arts Council - they have always had Royal patronage
There is no sign of them having tried #As I have pointed out, ours and iother collections are ready for use
When we set up Singers Workshop Arcive, which is basically how ours began, I indexed everything that hadn't been already and, when I became computerised, digitised everything, as did others
Bob and Jackie Patten contacted me and gave me a fully indexed copy of their Somerset fieldwork, Charles Parker's and Peggy and Ewan's came fully listed, as did Hugh Shield's and Tom Munnnelly's
If you read what I said, the Howson's were approached by Terry Yarnell (to my knowledge)
These are excuses Howard, I have learned friom past bitter experience that you can't give away field recordings to the present folk scene any more than Rod Stradling can sell them
There is no longer an interest
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 03:55 PM

Vic has pointed out the due diligence that Kirst of Riches has to carry out before putting anything online. That all costs money. No institution of this type will take on a project unless it has assurances that the funding is available. I work for a charity, although not in the arts, and I see this at first hand. I also see how complex and difficult applying for funding can be, the range of outcomes a successful project must achieve beyond its immediate ones, and how many very worthwhile projects fail for one reason or another to be win a grant.

Funding through ACE, National Lottery etc. has become a very complex operation. The application forms run to many pages and is so daunting many people are put off. A newish range of professionals has developed who are experienced fund-raisers who know all the ropes, tell applicants how to jump through the hoops and give the meanings to some of the fairly obtuse jargon that some parts of the of form and advice notes use. Demonstrating that you have parallel funding or financial backing can be a mighty problem. Even if the grant is given the assessment and evaluation at the end - which must be completed before the final payments are given, can be very time consuming. Then if the application is not granted, you still have to pay for the 'fund-raising professional' and you can end up out of pocket.

I have been involved in a number of applications in recent years.
For the first one (with ACE) we had one free meeting with the local ACE officer, than we had a paid meeting with an advisor and did the rest ourselves. We were granted a substantial five figure grant. We asked for feedback afterwards and were told that that it was an excellent application an the detailed links to the National Curriculum in the education section were particlarly strong... but then I was a retired head teacher with such information at my finger tips.

The second one (with National Lottery) failed. It was called "too ambitious". A less complicated application is being prepared but I can tell you that the rejection left some hard working people rather dejected.

The third one (with the South Downs National Parks) gained the full amount of £2000 which was the maximum in that category. However, I was one of the four person sub-committee working on the application and when I worked out the hours the 4 had put in and divided it into the grant, it worked out that we had been working for considerable less than the minimum wage.

Crowd-funding might be the answer as Howard suggests. but I always have misgivings with this direction around accountabilty.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 04:15 PM

I'm in no position to know, let alone try to excuse, the EFDSS's priorities. Nevertheless it is has only a small team trying to do a lot of different things. Like you, I may not agree with all of those things but it is for the trustees and its members to decide the priorities. As Vic said, they seem to be prioritising the more historical stuff first. Your material is in safe keeping, and whilst not widely accessible I assume it should be possible for someone to listen to it at the British Library.

Applying for Arts Council funding, like the Lottery, appears to be a complex process that requires a fair amount of time and resources. Royal patronage I'm afraid won't circumvent this.

As this thread has shown, you are prone to interpreting different views to your own as evidence of a lack of interest in traditional music, possibly even hostility to it. Even if the EFDSS's priorities are different from your does not mean they are doing something wrong. Unless you can show the reason that the EFDSS has rejected your material I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm a bit confused. Why do you want to make this material widely available if you think no one on the folk scene is interested in it? And if that were to be true, why should the EFDSS or anyone else put its time, money and resources into making it available? And assuming that you don't really believe that no one is interested, why not do it yourself?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 06:40 PM

Mudcat not functioning for me currently. Losing posts or they're only part coming through.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 06:41 PM

Just lost a loaded reply to Vic's Q. In short YES.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 06:45 PM

Jim,
What evidence have you that Sharp actually did any research, say to the extent that Baring Gould or Kidson did?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 06:46 PM

That was my 6th attempt at that one.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 06:46 PM

Lucky 3 in a row!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 07:48 PM

Max emailed something to me earlier that indicated this thread was likely the problem. Huge thread that a lot of people are hitting.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 08:12 PM

Re-reading my last post it may come across as a bit confrontational, that wasn't my intention.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 09:34 PM

Here's an interesting program that purports to indicate what went on in folk clubs in the
80s. Anderson reckons there were about 500 clubs then.

Click

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 04:12 AM

Jim have you tried various county archives?if the material was sorted by counties, they are normally interested inanything relating to county history

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM

"What evidence have you that Sharp actually did any research,"
Oh dear - I suspected his was coming Steve
The act of actually going out and talking to the people who carried the songs is, as far as I am concerned an act of researching (finding out) what folk song was about, without any earlier examples to go by, probably the most important
Based on 'Some Conclusions' alone, he was apparently familiar with other 'researchers' such as Motherwell, who he quotes, he had perused the broadsides he had his own personal collection of them and had obviously compared them to the songs he and his colleagues - he , as I do, found them chalk and cheese, as did later collectors whose work I am exploring at present
He knew the modes and wrote about them at length.
He became aware enough of the the importance of folk songs as the people's art to make efforts to get them into schools
A bit more than your average 'butterfly collector'
One of the great advantages Sharp and his colleagues had over today's researchers (what is left of that once proud band) is that they were there when there were enough old singers to make a hands on assessment of what folk song was and was about, they were in a position to judge whether the material being gathered was really 'the voice of the people' or just something they bought and learned parrot-fashion.
One of the greatest advantages was they were prepared to learn from each other, those who had gone before, and their main benefactors - not like the present somewhat distateful approach of sweeping aside old knowledge to make room for the new
   
I was once given a full set of 'the Journals, through all their various stages, despite their rather unhealthy (in my opinion) move from dealing solely with song, I find them still an essential edition to my knowledge, as I do all the early writings, Gummere, Gerould, Wimberly.... (notably mainly American)
Today find much of today's Journal (not all nowadays) a lone light - an echo of what a folk scene was once about - one that knew what folk song was and didn't make discussions on definition no-go areas, as it has become on a forum which styles itself as being about "Traditional Music and Folklore Collection and Community"

Howard
Why do I think this material important ?
Because of what it is and represents
It needs to be available to all those who describe themselves as being involved in 'folk' - not just our collection but all I have mentioned and much, much more
I find it utterly outrageous that, after nearly seventy years, the result of the magnificent survey of the last of our song and music traditions carried out by the BBC and paid for by the public's money, is still generally unavailable, and what little that was issued has been deleted and forgotten
It should be promoted and used in schools and colleges in the hope (possibly vain, as things stand) that future generations might pick up the ball that our generation dropped
Why should EFDSS be interested - because that is part of their job description - they are not a music and dance society; they are a FOLK music and dance society - about time somebody reminded them of that fact
If they are not going to piss, they need to get off the pot.

Last night I spoke to a friend who sang at a concert of traditional song at Cecil Sharp House recently - to an audience of fifteen people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 07:37 AM

Last night I spoke to a friend who sang at a concert of traditional song at Cecil Sharp House recently - to an audience of fifteen people
Jim Carroll

I would like to know the name of that singer, the nature of his repertoire and the promoter (not always EFDSS themselves) before I comment on this and I would like Jim to supply what he knows of the event before I do so. Could you do this for me, please, Jim?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 07:58 AM

Jim -
Why should EFDSS be interested - because that is part of their job description - they are not a music and dance society; they are a FOLK music and dance society - about time somebody reminded them of that fact
If they are not going to piss, they need to get off the pot.

Can we take it, Jim, that you are not a member of EFDSS? You see, I am... and if I am unhappy about something EFDSS related I email them with my complaints. I always receive a reply, normally from a senior figure and it usually apologises, thanks me for taking the trouble and explains the constraints, often financial and/or grant related. At the very least, this gives me an insight into the way they are forced to operate.
You, on the other hand, regularly post your complaints on Mudcat and anyway they are scattergun complaints rather than focussed ones addressing a single issue. As far a I know, no-one in authority in EFDSS ever visits Mudcat.

To use a biblical analogy, your complaints are falling on stony ground.

To use your rather unpleasant urine-related analogy, you are pissing in the wind.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 07:58 AM

SHe was a fine singer of traditional songs - among the most respected
I have no wish to involve a friend further in this discussion
Tat she sang at a folk event in Cecil Sharp House was all that matters to me
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 08:15 AM

"To use a biblical analogy, your complaints are falling on stony ground."
Deaf ears is, I think the term you are searching for Vic - I have been well aware for that for some time now
I have been specific about what happens at Cecil Sharp House and have a fair amount of personal experience to know it little resembles what used to happen when they had a staff who cared about the futute of folk song
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:50 AM

Jim have you tried various county archives?if the material was sorted by counties, they are normally interested in anything relating to county history

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 10:16 AM

I have no wish to involve a friend further in this discussion
Pity because if I knew more details, I could perhaps offer some suggestions as to why the turn-out was so poor. Often the poorly attended events are mounted by clueless outside promoters. It wasn't at the folk club, was it?Any folk club can have a bad night. Was there some rival attraction on that evening? Particularly in London, this is a major problem.
All the events that I have attended in recent years in the main hall at Cecil Sharp House have been sell-outs. Was there some rival attraction on that evening? Particularly in London, this is a major problem.
One that stands out in my mind was a private party, the wake after Tom Paley's funeral. The people at Cecil Sharp House contacted the family and offered the main hall free of rent for an evening celebration of Tom's life after the funeral because they thought that there would be a lot of people wanting to celebrate his life. They were right! The place was packed. The music was scintillating. People from five countries gave their tributes to Tom and I was delighted to be asked to speak about a man that I had known for 50 years and greatly admired.
I was a very happy man when I drove the minibus I had hired full of 15 of Tom's relatives and friends back to Brighton.
To whoever at the EFDSS has the idea - thank you for s brilliant idea and a very thoughtful gesture.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 11:22 AM

Jim, my question was not why you think this material is valuable, but why, when you think there is no interest in it, you expect someone else to make it available.

Do you have evidence that Efdss is apathetic, rather than constrained by funding?

As for getting off the pot, it is not preventing you or anyone else from doing something with the material. What it needs is money.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 11:34 AM

Vic Re your posting above 10.16

I would heartily agree with your views I too was there for the evening of Tom's funeral having known him and played alongside him on countless occasions. I am sure you are aware of the you tube clips of the event.

Re rival events in the locality of The House it can be a challenge. The Green Note just down the road has events on seven nights a week including folk and related music also there are good pubs and some with sessions going on not too far distant.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 11:35 AM

"More excuses Vic, and an apparent refusal to recognise the fact that EFDSS is apparently no longer interested in promoting traditional songs traditionally performed"

The gig in question had exactly the same level of prominance in their press ad as the Eliza Carthy concert a fortnight earlier. More credit to them for risking a totally acoustic gig by an unacompanied singer of trad meterial who isn't well known in Southern England outside of a small group of hardcore traddies. Clearly the punters who liked Irish music used their pennies on one of the three big name, commercially promoted, concerts at other venues during the previous week.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 11:38 AM

More excuses Vic, and an apparent refusal to recognise the fact that EFDSS is apparently no longer interested in promoting traditional songs traditionally performed
This is your opinion and you are obviously welcome to express it, except of course that you do not qualify it with something like, "In my opinion....". That changes it into a unqualified, unsupported, blatant lie in the eyes of very many members of EFDSS who derive a great deal of satisfaction from the many educational, information-providing, sponsorship and financial support to further their interest in traditional song, music, drama, story-telling and dance that they receive from the organisation.
You seem to feel the need to hurl unsupported but regular criticism at EFDSS, Comhaltas, the majority of singer-songwriters, folk clubs, and the whole gamut of things that you disprove of. Reasoned criticism is one thing and can be helpful in evaluation; wholesale condemnation in perjorative unsupported terms is quite another. For one thing, it changes the focus from the main matter in hand of the thread to your bald statements and the many objections to them. As Joe says, It is boring!.
Joe's intervention at 23 Mar 19 - 09:28 AM and the removal of some of your more bilious posts seemed to clear the air. The next post was my I give a loud sigh of relief and hope that this thread had now been rescued and that something like a civilised exchange of views can be resumed. followed by your Amen to that. The air was cleared. We could, and did, resume discussion of aspects of the subject, yet here you are, only three days later, back in full attack mode, returning with unsupported statements about the EFDSS.
Please could you tell me PM or by posting here what you are trying to achieve?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 11:47 AM

I don't understand how the EFDSS can be blamed for not promoting traditional material if only 15 people show up when they do.

Where are these mythical thousands of followers of tradiional music that left the UK folk clubs and are just waiting for it all to come back?

Did they all migrate to Ireland?

Just a thought

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 11:52 AM

"Clearly the punters who liked Irish music "
Traditional singing, I hope you mean - it's really time that those in England are producing far more traditionally representative singers (and younger) over here than they are doing back home

"when you think there is no interest in it, you expect someone else to make it available."
I expect those whose job description should make them interested should be gathering all this material together - not just ours - that's what they are paid for - not promoting singer-songwriters

"As for getting off the pot, it is not preventing you or anyone else from doing something with the material."
See previous answer

To those who might be interested - I seem to hit on a seam of folk song lovers who are genuinely interested in the real think so my PCloud box is constantly on the go supplying examples of the real thing to them, and will be for some time to come - it's a bit random 'cause I'm responding to requests
Anybody who wishes to be added to my link list can PM me their e-mail address - promise I wont tell the Ed Sheeran fans :->
Jim   
I'm having a great deal of trouble posting to this site - I was totally unable to yesterday
Is it something I've said?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM

"Did they all migrate to Ireland?
Just a thought"
This one did
I know many who just play the old albums and live on their memories - including some of the best singers and singeresses of yesteryear
Every now and then I am stuck by the though "I thought he/she was dead"
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 01:01 PM

Jim wrote:-
To those who might be interested - I seem to hit on a seam of folk song lovers who are genuinely interested in the real think so my PCloud box is constantly on the go supplying examples of the real thing to them, and will be for some time to come

This is great news Jim! I feel the same when I answer questions, give additional details or help searchers find what they are after using the Sussex Traditions database. I wonder who gets the more enquiries? Not that it matters because we are both doing exactly the same sort of job. Whatever the numbers, I am sure they are dwarfed by the various responses to the 80,000 plus items of the EFDSS funded "Full English Digital Archive"

Wouldn't it be great if we could say that each in their different ways that

Jim Carroll's PCloud box, Sussex Traditions and the EFDSS Full English are all doing their best in their different ways and scales to bring the real traditional music and song of these islands to generations that were born after traditional music ceased to be an integral part of communities in these islands because the information-rich modern world blocks out the previous way in which communities receive their music and entertainment.

Unfortunately, we cannot do this because of your belief expressed earlier today and many times before that because of the fact that EFDSS is apparently no longer interested in promoting traditional songs traditionally performed.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 01:12 PM

Cop out Vic
We're doing our job (never had any doubt you were) - EFDSS is not doing theirs - to repeat "because of the fact that EFDSS is apparently no longer interested in promoting traditional songs traditionally performed."
We can spin on this head of a pin forever but the proof of the pudding..... and all that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 01:34 PM

To Jim
Thank you. That last post was very helpful. Am I right in thinking that your message is The EFDSS is apparently no longer interested in promoting traditional songs traditionally performed and that is because I say that the EFDSS is apparently no longer interested in promoting traditional songs traditionally performed; no questions, no reasons, no explanations. I have said it and therefore it is fact. Please just accept my authority and we will move on.

To everyone else.
Am I right in being minded in this of the Prime Minister's latest Brexit speech in the House of Commons last night?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 01:55 PM

Mudcat struggling, but not this thread.

---

Nothing new is being accomplished on this thread and it appears to be slowing down all of Mudcat. This is, at the very least, a time out. Go make music.