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UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

GUEST 21 Mar 19 - 06:32 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 19 - 06:25 AM
The Sandman 21 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 19 - 04:57 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 19 - 04:50 AM
r.padgett 21 Mar 19 - 04:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 19 - 04:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM
The Sandman 21 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM
The Sandman 21 Mar 19 - 03:06 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 20 Mar 19 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 20 Mar 19 - 03:46 PM
FreddyHeadey 20 Mar 19 - 03:25 PM
The Sandman 20 Mar 19 - 02:34 PM
The Sandman 20 Mar 19 - 02:33 PM
The Sandman 20 Mar 19 - 02:06 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 02:05 PM
The Sandman 20 Mar 19 - 01:55 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 12:02 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 12:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Mar 19 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 11:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Mar 19 - 11:18 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 10:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Mar 19 - 10:33 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 10:26 AM
Vic Smith 20 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Mar 19 - 09:58 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 09:32 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 09:30 AM
Howard Jones 20 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM
Jack Campin 20 Mar 19 - 09:02 AM
Vic Smith 20 Mar 19 - 08:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Mar 19 - 07:50 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 07:28 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Mar 19 - 07:11 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 07:03 AM
Howard Jones 20 Mar 19 - 06:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Mar 19 - 06:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Mar 19 - 06:15 AM
Jack Campin 20 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 05:54 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 05:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Mar 19 - 05:49 AM
Howard Jones 20 Mar 19 - 05:38 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 04:29 AM
GUEST 20 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:32 AM

Jim keeps telling us that thousands of true folk followers, including himself, abandonded folk clubs when they became contaminated with non trad material.The same occured when people became discontented with the Catholic church and its rituals.
Those who left the Catholic church set up their own churches such as Methodist, Quacker and many others.These churches are still around after
centuries.
Why didn't someone amonst the thousands of true folkies open clubs that operated as they would like,if Jim is right with his claims, the clubs would be full of the faithful and thriving.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:25 AM

"In your opinion, Jim. Mine differs."
A total cop out Dave
I have laid out in detail exactly why what you are putting up is boring - in a couple of words THEY ARE TOTALLY ONE-DIMENSIONAL
Show where that is not the case
If you refuse to do so you are as ballsless as your songs
Show us you comic songs, your family and social dramas, your epics, your tragedies, your erotic encounters, your wars, your examoles of great injustices, your struggles for justice and betterment, your massive examples of inequality, your social and personal triumphs and failures, your great stories, your supernatural tales, your battles with the elements....
I can give you examples of all of these and much more fro folk songs
Can you give me any from your limp-wristed pap ?
I very much doubt it

Now - ask me a question instead of answering mine - that's what I've come to expect from this discussion

That you are "happy" with wwhat you hear in clubs says a lot about you and the clubs - nothing whatever about the music
I'm happy with a good episode of Holby City - doesn't make either of them anything more than disposable chewing gum - good for a fw minutes chew if you like that sort of thing, but nothing more

I can't play your link (browser problems)
I'll try and solve the problem and, if I do, I promise I'll give it far more attention than you have given any of my clips
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM

you are asking two different questions would i do it or is it suitable for folk clubs, so why are you asking ME these questions, why ndo you not ask jim carroll.let us look at the lyrics
I was twenty-four years old
When I met the woman I would call my own
Twenty-two grand kids now growing old
In that house that your brother bought ya
On the summer day when I proposed
I made that wedding ring from dentist gold
And I asked her father, but her daddy said, "No
You can't marry my daughter"
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
Well, met her at Guy's in the second world war
And she was working on a soldier's ward
Never had I seen such beauty before
The moment that I saw her
Nancy was my yellow rose
And we got married wearing borrowed clothes
We got eight children now growing old
Five sons and three daughters
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
From her snow white streak in her jet black hair
Over sixty years I've been loving her
Now we're sat by the fire in our old armchairs
You know Nancy, I adore ya
From a farm boy born near Belfast town
I never worried about the king and crown
'Cause I found my heart upon the southern ground
There's no difference, I assure ya
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
now let us look at a song it reminds me of
I've got a pal,
    A reg'lar out an' outer,
    She's a dear good old gal,
    I'll tell yer all about 'er.
    It's many years since fust we met,
    'Er 'air was then as black as jet,
    It's whiter now, but she don't fret,
    Not my old gall

    We've been together now for forty years,
    An' it don't seem a day too much,
    There ain't a lady livin' in the land
    As I'd swop for my dear old Dutch.

    I calls 'er Sal,
    'Er proper name is Sairer,
    An' yer may find a gal
    As you'd consider fairer.
    She ain't a angel — she can start
    A-jawin' till it makes yer smart,
    She's just a woman, bless 'er eart,
    Is my old gal!

    We've been together now for forty years,
    An' it don't seem a day too much,
    There ain't a lady livin' in the land
    As I'd swop for my dear old Dutch.

    Sweet fine old gal,
    For worlds I wouldn't lose 'er,
    She's a dear good old gal,
    An' that's what made me choose 'er.
    She's stuck to me through thick and thin,
    When luck was out, when luck was in,
    Ah wot a wife to me she's been,
    An' wot a pal!

    We've been together now for forty years,
    An' it don't seem a day too much,
    There ain't a lady livin' in the land
    As I'd swop for my dear old Dutch.

    I sees yer Sal —
    Yer pretty ribbons sportin'
    Many years now, old gal,
    Since them young days of courtin'.
    I ain't a coward, still I trust
    When we've to part, as part we must,
    That Death may come and take me fust
    To wait... my pal!

    We've been together now for forty years,
    An' it don't seem a day too much,
    There ain't a lady livin' in the land
    As I'd swop for my dear old Dutch.
Dave , i have never had an inclination to sing the AlberrtChevalier song so why would i want to sing the ed sheeran song,
as for suitabilty in folk clubs, I sing what i want to sing, I let other people sing whatever they want, however that does not mean i would pay money to see certain performers, i would not bother to pay money too see ed sheeran, however i would pay to see alf garnett in concert, because he is so funny and because he makes good political points through satire, but i would not go to see him [alf ]in a folk club,
dave, you speak with a forked tongue you cannot catch me out, enjoy this clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp8aTvVqE7I

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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM

But of a tangent but that is what I like about browsing stuff. I came across this Lancashire song and loved the auto generated sub titles. Hope Dereck sees it. He would have a good laugh :-)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:57 AM

In your opinion, Jim. Mine differs.

I am happy with what I hear at folk clubs in the main. You are not. That is all this boils down to.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:50 AM

"the Lloyd Griffith's version."
Which is every bit as unfolky and uninterpreted as the former one
A clever-clever intrusive guitar display accompanied by hiccoughy-delivered words which are delivered without a a shred of interpretation or emotion - a skillful piece of musical dexterity - not a song - as far as you can get from the emotionally filled narrative stories that make up our folk repertoire as you can get
It is certainly not unpleasant, far more pleasurable than the musical-soup immersed stuff that Dave put up, but it bears no resemblance to any folk song I know
Dave has failed miserably to place hi claims next to - perhaps you can place that next to a traditionally rendered piece it in any way resembles ?

The thing that strikes me about all the stuff that is being claimed as being folk coincides with the reason I walked away from pop song if that IT IS ALL SO BORINGLY LIMITED
They are virtually all humourless and plotless - more often than not, nameless, faceless, jobless, interest-less non-people whingeing about failed relationships, or couples whose world doesn't extend beyond each other.... very little else.
It doesn't matter too much what they are about because the instruments, if they don't actually drown out the words, render any plots the songs may have totally irrelevant - these songs are designed for the listener to listen to the music
Occasionally - very occasionally, a song extends beyond this and puts up a cardboard world resembling a poorly constructed set from an early film noire - no place, no people, no life, nothing - DULL-DULL-DULL

Our folk songs are diametrically the opposite - love yes, but usually directly linked to other aspects of life, parting, but yes, but usually far more than some feller running of with your girlfriend - far more likely to be about being pressed to sea, or social misalliance, or lack of a job, or war..... real situations

I don't see a great deal of real humour in your songs - no funny stories like The Tailor's Britches, or The Old Drover, or The Ranter Parson... or the many, many more humourous pieces that make up the folk repertoire
No cleverness such as that found in The Penny Wager or The Crafty Farmer
No excitement that even approaches the epic Farmer Michael Hayes, or The Rambling Royal
No real tragedy except losing your girl or feller, which is basically the only thing to be identified with in the pop repertoire   
No real sexual encounters, no eroticism, so seduction - if there is sex, it's penisless and fannyless - sex with no balls
Certainly there are certainly no substantial stories to the substitutes you are offering to folk songs -
The plots of the ballads are as exciting and absorbing as anything in literature - from Shakespeare to modern novels and plays - good films.
Your songs are to be sung at people - they certainly don't invite you to be part of them - little more than musical sounds

We used to have occasional evenings in the Singers Club entitled 'You Name It, We Sing It' where the audience was asked to pass up subjects for songs rather than requests
The idea was that the subjects were referred to, which then referred to to an existing song - or even just a random topic
Only the singer with large repertoires participated - I can never remember them being stymied - nearly on one occasion when someone wrote on the slip "unpaid brickie goes berserk and slays two" - Bert Lloyd eventually obliged with Lamkin

Al Whittle described the folk repertoire as dull "and some of us prefer colours other than rustic sepia"
Quite honestly, I can't think of anything as dull as the monotone, peopleless, plotless stuff you people are putting up as an alternative to folk song
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:24 AM

Unaccompanied singing is all about breathing (I am sure some realise this) using normal speaking phrasing and of course odd spoken word and stops etc ~ accompaniments using instruments (yea what else?)

This is at odds from accompaniments which tends to want to impose a straighter rythmical delivery ~ as Sandman says ~ accompaniments should be just that and and it is imortant not to impose and change the most important part ~ the delivery of the song storyline ~ that is get in the way!

Accompanists CAN of course on occasion ADD to the overall delivery of the song and convey an artistically pleasing "package" to the hearers

Ray


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:15 AM

...same question to any of the other performers on here as well.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM

Just out of interest, Dick, would you perform "Nancy Mulligan" at a folk club? I'm not asking you to actually do it, just if you think it would be suitable given the right treatment.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM

about singing , i know when i sing a song unaccompanied, stylistically i sing differently from when i accompany it, i recently was the invited guest at cork singers club , i practised all the songs beforehand because i had to sing all the songs unaccompanied, imo without harmonic acoompaniment it is important to use vocal linear embellishmen to some extent ,definitely to a greater extent, how much is of course a matter of taste, and the embellishments imo should not detract from the storyline, imo emeblishment should not be the be all and end all, but that is only my opinion


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM

Thank, Dick, I knew someone would put up some traditional songs. I really don't want any bookings though, I don't know enough songs!

The whole point of my clips, Jim, is to show that even traditional songs can be "popped up". I have chosen the artists precisely because you would not get them in a folk club but you could get the songs. The song I have put up as being in the folk idiom has passed every single one of your tests and no one but you is saying the song would be out of place in a folk club provided it is performed in a folky manner. Just as there are some some songs that would normally be welcome but would be out of place with the wrong treatment.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 03:06 AM

so we can safely say that the vast majority of songs in cecil sharp house collection are folk songs. Hoot i will listen, but i still maintain that peggy seegers accompaniments are good accompaniments , that does not mean someone else might do it better, but when we compare PEGGYS ACCOMPANIMENTYS TO THAT EXAMPLE OF THE WOLF TONES imo peggys accompaniments are beTter
CUMBERLAND GAP frank profitt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnA--ErxGG8


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:48 PM

Dick,

Re the Seeger / Paley clip above and Peggy's version of Cumberland Gap.

Compare it to this version. It's a no contest. One is by a folk musician from the mountains of North Carolina,the other is by a classically trained middle class musician from the city.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnA--ErxGG8


I am not passing judgement but I know which I prefer.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 03:46 PM

mention of the Wolfe Tones reminds me of a John McKenna committee discussion in 2014 about how to publicise the double CD of the entire McKenna recorded material. This magnificent production is still available at 20 euro from www.johnmckenna.ie by the way...
Anyway, various methods were planned & one member said he'd heard from one of the Wolfe Tones on tour in Australia that he would put the word out.

'Wolfe Tones' said the chairman 'these days should that not be the Continuity Wolfe Tones?'


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 03:25 PM

Nancy Mulligan is as far from the tradition asyou can get
Blimey Jim! , I might bookmark this page.
See you back here ... 2039?

I've not noticed any particular comments about it so here is the link again to the Lloyd Griffith's version.
https://youtu.be/IdHgXlnhnKk?t=0m20s 
I wonder how Brian Peters or Thomas McCarthy would treat it.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:34 PM

peggy and tom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CVUE6z76tw


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:33 PM

here are two musicians singers who wre part of the sixties folk club boom,tom paley peggy seeger
Dave the gnome,take note, when you can do that, you will be worth booking.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:06 PM

here is another version of a folk song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jCTeQdBFP8
so two versions of whats is without a doubt a folk song[[cecil sharp thought so too] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko2UKE75en0


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:05 PM

"accompaniment means the accompaniment following the singer, "
Thanks Dick - there's a lorra lorra singers who need to hear that
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 01:55 PM

"Star of the County Down" is an Irish ballad set near Banbridge in County Down, in Northern Ireland. The words are by Cathal McGarvey (1866–1927).whether itis tradtional is debatable , neither are the wolfe tones performing it in a tradtional style, they do not seem to understand that accompaniment means the accompaniment following the singer, her is a good example of a folk song accompanied in a better way.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko2UKE75en0


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:02 PM

Why are you deliberately picking crappy versions of traditional songs to make your point ?
We know that Nancy Mulligan is as far from the tradition asyou can get
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:00 PM

Another rocked up version from a folk boom folk group
Can't see much of Harry in their - can you ?
Have you no shame
TRY THIS - ON A SIMILAR THEME
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:47 AM

I would have put something like that up, Jim, but I thought you would have said phrases like 'Fol-de-rol-diddle-aye-a' were superficial and meaningless.

OK. How about Star of the County Down by The Wolfe Tones

Same meter, same melodic structure, even the same key as Nancy Mulligan. Now, I have linked a trad song, performed traditionally that I reckon is pretty much like Nancy Mulligan.

Now your turn. Give me a link to one that sounds like Dirty Old Town to you.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:37 AM

As you don't have the courage to provide your own, perhaps you might put anything of your own choosing
BESIDE THIS PLEASE
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:18 AM

I have been asking you to put up something traditionallly performed up against one of your examples for over a week now

The link I sent was of Nancy Mulligan performed by a man on his own with a guitar. Other that his baseball cap it is pretty traditional. What else do you want?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 10:43 AM

Davce
I am appalled that you should attempt to pass of a rochked-up version of Dirty Old Town in order to show how folk songs compare with the dross sheeran pumps out - that is as dishonest as it gets
Our folk songs are basically for solo penaccompanied - you offer the exact opposite
I have been asking you to put up something traditionallly performed up against one of your examples for over a week now and now you dare to asrformances and are uk me to do te same without having the courtesy to comply
And you continue to press your case - without proof
I really did think better of you than this
Over and out
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 10:33 AM

Tell you what, Jim. You put up a traditional song that sounds like Dirty Old Town to you and I will put up one that sounds like Nancy Mulligan to me.

Finished here Dave

I think I would do the same if I was in your shoes, Jim. :-)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 10:26 AM

We know as much about this couple as we do in any folk song and that is one-dimensional - not how folk songs work
Everything else you have once again chosen to ignore
THe fact that you simply refuse to put the song against comparable traditional one makes it quite clear that there isn'tyt one
Finished here Dave
Telli it to the marines, I've totally lost interest in yoyur non responsive argument about one song
The fact that you have been totally dishonest by givinmg Dirty Old Town being sung like a pop songs confirms that you are taking the piss
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

Vic - I mean real people oin relation to teh songs and their makers and singers , of course - you've been on the scene long enough to know that

Thanks for the explanation.... but if you mean "Working class people - as defined by me - who in the past have sung songs that might be regarded as folk songs using the definition that I favour." then, for the sake of clarity, you ought to use words something like I have chosen rather than misusing "real people".
There is also a problem these days with the phrase 'Voice of the People'. I know that you mean the fabulous and continuing sets of albums of traditional song and music released by Topic but it we were to move outside the very small pond that we are both swimming in, I think you will find that for most people that phrase has come to mean "The way around 31% of the British electorate voted in the 2016 EU Referendum which now must be carried out whatever the subsequent negotiations have revealed about the underhand practices of both sides but mainly the leave campaign and the ignominy and economic disaster that this will bring to the UK and the entire island of Ireland."
We are communicating on a public forum, not by private emails and anyone can read what is posted here.
In writing this I am calling for clarity.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:58 AM

Two pieces of information about facekless jobless ckassless people

You are having a laugh, Jim. We know everything about this young couple. Their names, ages, occupations, where they lived, how long they were together, where they got their house from, how many children they had, how many grandchildren they had, the fact that her father did not like him and they ran off to get married and that they were poor working class Irish people.

What do we know about the couple in Dirty Old Town? He met her by a piece of waste ground and gave her one up against the gass yard wall. And you call the former superficial nonsense.

You want clips? Here you go.


Nancy Mulligan


Dirty Old Town

Not sure what you are going to do with them apart from you like one and not the other.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:32 AM

The clue lies in the description 'The Voice of the People' or maybe you believe Bert and Topic were referring to The Royal Family
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:30 AM

"I for one have been repeatedly telling you that traditional folk songs continue to be at the heart of folk clubs and other folk events"
And everybosdy else keeps telling me taht this is not the case and providing me with poor substitutes
In the long run, 186 clubs as a success needs to be addressed - especially as many of these have eschewed the real thing

Daev
taht is superficial nonsense
Two pieces of information about facekless jobless ckassless people
Do you really call that charactariseation
You get more caractariseation frorm a Puccini Opera
Scraping the surface is not what folk song does
Now - how about those sound clips
Vic - I mean real people oin relation to teh songs and their makers and singers , of course - you've been on the scene long enough to know that
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM

Will somebody respond to what has actually happened to folk songs in teh supposed folk scene?

I for one have been repeatedly telling you that traditional folk songs continue to be at the heart of folk clubs and other folk events, at least the ones I go to.

Have all these centuries old songs really had their day?

Again, I have repeatedly told you that in my experience this is not the case, and as well as the older singers who have been singing these for decades there are large numbers of young folk singers who are performing traditional songs and tunes. Here are some examples from a few CDs on my shelf:

The Teacups "One for the Pot": 9 out of 10 songs are traditional
Pilgrims' Way "Red Diesel": 9 songs, 6 of them trad
Alice Jones "Poor Strange Girl": 10 songs, 7 trad
Granny's Attic "Off the Land": 8 songs, all trad

These are all young musicians, mostly in their 20s and 30s, all gigging regularly at folk clubs and festivals. This is why I am optimistic about the future.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:02 AM

Salford class demographics here.

see the section "Salford Social Grade & Occupation Statistics"

45% ABC1's against a bit over 50% for the whole of England.

Hardly rules out the characters in the song being a medical student and the daughter of the local GP.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:30 AM

Jim wrote:-
reakl people and in real surroundings

Could we have some clarity on what is meant by "real" here? To my mind the Queen and Jim Carroll are both "real". I do not believe either of them are ficticious though I have met neither.
Similarly I know Main Street in Miltown Malbay and The Mall in the City of Westminster are both "real surroundings" as my feet have walked along both on a number of occasions. Perhaps you could provide us with a dictionary definition here as these have been used recently in this thread?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:50 AM

Where is the characterisation ?
Beyond falling in love - where is there any indication of what they are
All lovers in folk songs sing about how that love goiives rise to other problems - parental disaproval, ssocial misalliance, parting, poverty.....


I was twenty-four years old
When I met the woman I would call my own


He was 24 when they met.

Twenty-two grand kids now growing old
In that house that your brother bought ya


They now have 22 grand kids and live in the house her brother bought her.

And I asked her father, but her daddy said, "No
You can't marry my daughter"


Her Father was against the marriage as he was a Protestant from Belfast and she was a Catholic from Wexford.

That is just in the first verse. He goes to to give us their names, where they were both from, the work they both did, the fact that they married in borrowed clothes, how many children they had and that they are still together after 60 years.

Just how much characterisation do you want?

There is no such characterisation in, for instance, Dirty Old Town. As to the tune, it has for more in common with the Star of the County Down than Dirty Old Town has with The Waters of Tyne.

One think you do have right. We are comparing chalk and cheese but I know which is closer to the tradition.

Why don't you just say that you do not like the song Nancy Mulligan and have done with it? It would make far more sense than the arguments you have put up against it so far.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:28 AM

I really have had enough of batting off chalk and cheese songs
Will somebody respond to what has actually happened to folk songs in teh supposed folk scene
Have all these centuries old songs really had their day - if people believe so, they really ned to say so (a couple of you have already stuck their heads above the parapet with their "unsuitable ballads" and "sepia songs"
Any more for the Skylark
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM

"I proved that Nancy Mulligan did all of that "
thy lyrics prove otherwise
Where is the characterisation ?
Beyond falling in love - where is there any indication of what they are
All lovers in folk songs sing about how that love goiives rise to other problems - parental disaproval, ssocial misalliance, parting, poverty.....
Sheerean repeats and reapeats and repeats and repeats..... ad nauseum
His non-narrative singing... broken up lines, lack of grammatical sense.... it totally dominated by an over-loud accompaniment.... makes the lyrics of teh sont totally superfluous
That is as 'unfolkie as it gets
If youi are suggesting that any of this stuff resembles foolk songs proper, it is you who is taking the piss
I have asked you to put up recordings of the songs you are claiming to resemble folk songs Qalongside genuine ones - the fact that refuse to do so indicates to me that you are unable to
Enough for me, I'm afrain - but feel free to prove me wrong by doing so now
" Nothing to indicate their class, either."
I can just see Pricess Di and Prince Charlie snogging on tehe Gasworks Cross and walking hand in hand by the old canal, sniffing the 'smoky breeze - can't you Jack - the setting represents the people amnd their class perfectly
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:11 AM

In the sense that it is set among reakl people and in real surroundings, it most certainly does

And Nancy Mulligan is not set among real people in real surroundings?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:03 AM

"However it doesn't share most of the characteristics of traditional song,"
"However it doesn't share most of the characteristics of traditional song, "
In the sense that it is set among reakl people and in real surroundings, it most certainly does, as compared to the No Mans land populated by non characters whose only objective in life is to fall in and out of love with one another of popular songs
Several of MacColls songs depict the 'Universal Man' man rather than individuals, but they all draw from reality and contain true sentiment rather than the crocodile tears of sentimentality.
If these discussions are anything to go by, I find virtually impossibly to judge what rings today's folkies bells
Most things except folk songs seem to do the trick
Personally, I find Richard Thompsons so deeply buried in musical noise to tell what he's singing about - might as well be reciting the Oscar Awards
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 06:43 AM

Dirty old town is precise and sharply defined as a working class town - the lovers are not a mass of undefinable humanity, but two very identifiable human beings

It's a great song, no question. Its popularity is well-deserved, and so far as I am concerned it fully meets the criteria to be performed in folk clubs. It is certainly "folk" in that sense, and sits well alongside traditional songs. However it doesn't share most of the characteristics of traditional song, except that the tune is adapted (almost beyond recognition) from a traditional one.

I do wonder how much of its acceptability is that it is by a recognised folk musician? The same can be said about Richard Thompson's songs, his past involvement with traditional music (albeit played in a non-traditional way) gives him credibility in folk circles and makes his songs more acceptable, whereas songs by "pop" composers are subject to greater scrutiny and are more likely to face rejection, when on a blind test they might not appear very different.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 06:19 AM

the lovers are not a mass of undefinable humanity, but two very identifiable human beings

Oh yes, Thanks for the reminder, Jack.

So, Jim, you mean the unnamed lovers in Dirty Old Town are more identifiable than the Nancy Mulligan of Wexford who worked in a hospital in WW2 and William Sheeran who was a farm boy from near Belfast?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 06:15 AM

let's see who is singing Belfast Town next year

Presuming you mean Belfast Child, It was released 20 years ago, Jim. The tune is a lot older.

As to comparing the lyrics to other songs - You are just taking the piss now. Your original list of what constitutes a contemporary song in the folk idiom -

1. word dominated, narrative communications of ideas and emotions
2. accompaniment, where it occurs is secondary to the narrative
3. The characters in the songs are identifiable people, usually with occupations and individuality
4. They have problems and situations we can all identify with
5. Structurally they ar four or eight line versified, they may have choruses but they hardly ever repeat phrases other than as a plot device


I proved that Nancy Mulligan did all of that and you did not like it so you added that it must be performed in a folky style, which is fair enough. I covered that. It must now also sound and have lyrics like like a traditional song.

Basically what you are saying is that if it does not sound like a existing traditional song to you, it is not in the folk idiom. Just come out and say it. Most people will disagree but no-one will think any less of you.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM

Dirty old town is precise and sharply defined as a working class town - the lovers are not a mass of undefinable humanity, but two very identifiable human beings

It has no characterization whatever. They are simply people from Salford. Nothing to indicate their class, either.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:54 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: little shirt my mother gave to me?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

By the way Dave - what id more folky Belfast town or Dirty old town
The latter 0- hands down
One of the distinctive features of folk song is its economy of line and its ability to reac a conclusion
The former meanders without wever getting anywhere, is full of superfluous non information and it reaches no conclusion   
The song carries no description or characterization, the people are cyphers and the surroundings are indistinguishable
It deals in sentimentality rather than sentiment

On the other hand, Dirty old town is precise and sharply defined as a working class town - the lovers are not a mass of undefinable humanity, but two very identifiable human beings
It ends with a desire to tear down the place being sung about
As a young man, me and a Salford girl over-snogged one night and I missed my last train home to Liverpool, so, finding four hours on my hands I walked the dark streets of Salford till about four o'clock in the morning - I was bowled over by the reality of MacColl's four verses up against the real thing so much I wrote to my lady friend and said so
Compared to that reality, Belfast is chewing gum you enjoy for five minutes and spit out
Only time will tell of course - let's see who is singing Belfast Town next year compared to (how old and how widely sung now?) Dirty old Town
That goes for all of you 'folkie sounding' pop songs

"I was referring to Nancy Mulligan, Jim"
Same difference Dave only loger and drossier - you have advocated for Galway Girl as well

"Nancy Mulligan
Ed Sheeran
I was twenty-four years old
When I met the woman I would call my own
Twenty-two grand kids now growing old
In that house that your brother bought ya
On the summer day when I proposed
I made that wedding ring from dentist gold
And I asked her father, but her daddy said, "No
You can't marry my daughter"
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
Well, met her at Guy's in the second world war
And she was working on a soldier's ward
Never had I seen such beauty before
The moment that I saw her
Nancy was my yellow rose
And we got married wearing borrowed clothes
We got eight children now growing old
Five sons and three daughters
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
From her snow white streak in her jet black hair
Over sixty years I've been loving her
Now we're sat by the fire in our old armchairs
You know Nancy, I adore ya
From a farm boy born near Belfast town
I never worried about the king and crown
'Cause I found my heart upon the southern ground
There's no difference, I assure ya
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border"

Feel free to produce a comparison
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:54 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: little shirt my mother gave to me?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

By the way Dave - what id more folky Belfast town or Dirty old town
The latter 0- hands down
One of the distinctive features of folk song is its economy of line and its ability to reac a conclusion
The former meanders without wever getting anywhere, is full of superfluous non information and it reaches no conclusion   
The song carries no description or characterization, the people are cyphers and the surroundings are indistinguishable
It deals in sentimentality rather than sentiment

On the other hand, Dirty old town is precise and sharply defined as a working class town - the lovers are not a mass of undefinable humanity, but two very identifiable human beings
It ends with a desire to tear down the place being sung about
As a young man, me and a Salford girl over-snogged one night and I missed my last train home to Liverpool, so, finding four hours on my hands I walked the dark streets of Salford till about four o'clock in the morning - I was bowled over by the reality of MacColl's four verses up against the real thing so much I wrote to my lady friend and said so
Compared to that reality, Belfast is chewing gum you enjoy for five minutes and spit out
Only time will tell of course - let's see who is singing Belfast Town next year compared to (how old and how widely sung now?) Dirty old Town
That goes for all of you 'folkie sounding' pop songs

"I was referring to Nancy Mulligan, Jim"
Same difference Dave only loger and drossier - you have advocated for Galway Girl as well

"Nancy Mulligan
Ed Sheeran
I was twenty-four years old
When I met the woman I would call my own
Twenty-two grand kids now growing old
In that house that your brother bought ya
On the summer day when I proposed
I made that wedding ring from dentist gold
And I asked her father, but her daddy said, "No
You can't marry my daughter"
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
Well, met her at Guy's in the second world war
And she was working on a soldier's ward
Never had I seen such beauty before
The moment that I saw her
Nancy was my yellow rose
And we got married wearing borrowed clothes
We got eight children now growing old
Five sons and three daughters
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
From her snow white streak in her jet black hair
Over sixty years I've been loving her
Now we're sat by the fire in our old armchairs
You know Nancy, I adore ya
From a farm boy born near Belfast town
I never worried about the king and crown
'Cause I found my heart upon the southern ground
There's no difference, I assure ya
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border"

Feel free to produce a comparison
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:49 AM

Still no traditional comparison with Galway Girl Dave ?

I was referring to Nancy Mulligan, Jim. See 18 Mar 19 - 10:50 AM and I have mentioned it by name a few times since. And you complain about me not reading posts!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:38 AM

The way they relate to traditional music is that in some way they are able to sit alongside traditional music in performance. In many cases they don't attempt to imitate traditional music, but they are capable of being performed in a similar way, which means that a folk club audience is more likely than not to enjoy them (not everyone of course, individual taste plays a part).

You insist on a homogeneity in folk clubs which, in my experience anyway, never existed. The clubs I attended always presented a broad spectrum of music, performed in different ways, but all broadly recognisable as "folk", and with a strong component of traditional music.

It is very difficult to pin down what qualifies a particular song in this way, it is often easier to recognise than describe, and there will often be room for disagreement. It may depend on whether the composer is recognised as a folk singer or is an outsider. I agree with you about Sheeran's song, not to my taste either. However the same could be said of a lot of contemporary folk standards, including some of McColl's output - "Dirty Old Town", for example, or "Joy of Living", both of which lack narrative structure, are strongly personal and written in the first person; none of these are characteristic of traditional song. Is that McColl's undoubted credentials as a folk singer make his songs more acceptable where Sheeran's are not?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:29 AM

And still total refusal to discuss how any of this relates to traditional music
Probably the most facile argument put forwards here is "things change"
We came together all those years ago to listen to, sing and understand a centuries-old art form - we did just that, some of us still do
Nothing has changed - those songs are as enjoyable and fulfilling as they ever where because they are timeless - just as Shakespeare and the Classics are
Only a cultural vandal would suggest that we've "moved on" from Hamlet or The Iliad, or The Canterbury Tales - why should folk art be any different
If a pop song has a life-span of over a year it is unusual - or it has been put on life support by an industry who things there may still be a profit in it
Our ballads still have an continuing entertainment value for those who seek it out after many centuries of singing by 'ordinary people' - yet the call here is to move on and embrace something that is not likely to last a year - what kind of logic is that ?
I've been told Im living in the past by someone who had admitted he likes to sing 'That Little shirt my Mother gave to Me' - a mawkish, 100 year old tear-jerker
Sorry lads - I'll stick with what I believe to be good, enjoyable and relevant art, if it's all the same to you

Still no traditional comparison with Galway Girl Dave ?
These are the lyrics, if it helps - perhaps you can identify the folkiness - the narrative, the motifs, the characterization - everything that makes folk song what it is

Galway Girl
Ed Sheeran
She played the fiddle in an Irish band
But she fell in love with an English man
Kissed her on the neck and then I took her by the hand
Said, "Baby, I just wanna dance"

I meet her on Grafton street right outside of the bar
She shared a cigarette with me while her brother played the guitar
She asked me, "What does it mean, the Gaelic ink on your arm?"
Said, "It was one of my friend's songs, do you want to drink on?"
She took Jamie as a chaser, Jack for the fun
She got Arthur on the table with Johnny riding as a shotgun
Chatted some more, one more drink at the bar
Then put Van on the jukebox, got up to dance

You know, she played the fiddle in an Irish band
But she fell in love with an English man
Kissed her on the neck and then I took her by the hand
Said,…
         
Nothing in it for me, I'm afraid, but hey, chacun son Gout
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM

All of them. To me. What do You think?


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