UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:47 AM

Sandman- it's down to your preferences and it's as simple as that. If you talk about 'folk' clubs or 'traditional' singing you may argue that when you pay your fiver & are disappointed that it's not what you expected, you're asking the impossible, i.e. pleasing ALL the people ALL the time. I try to do that but it's very difficult!
   These terms were used by some of the earliest & most successful clubs like Newcastle and Swindon, but there was always a great variety, the Davy Lamp & Birtley a few miles apart were very different, but interestingly, attracted many of the same people- and although one-off visitors may be misled/disappointed, local punters will surely KNOW what kind of club the local one is & what the general ambience is?

   Jim Carroll, the folks at the Empress of Russia had their own idea of what the music was about & acted accordingly- it WAS on a Thursday night & along with Jake Thackeray & Tom Robinson, guests included the Old Hat Band from Suffolk and Johnny Doughty- I well recall driving him up from Camber for the night- so really we're back to your idea of what music or performers are good/valid/traditional/folk & we've been there before- I know what I like & so do other people- get used to it!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:38 AM

i can tell you when things are well written, and hattie carroll imo is not
,well of course this is a subject that deserves a different thread [go and start one] there are certain melodic guidelines as to what most people consider in the uk folk revival consider a folk style , i have certain opinions as do other people so its subjective , but so is most peoples decisions as to what they want to hear in folk clubs. And lets get one thing clear Martin Carthy singning rave on, how many times has this happened and how long ago or is this just gnome goobledeegook

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:37 AM

Btw, Rave On is on a Steeleye Span compilation of here on YouTube.

And, no, I am not keen before anyone asks. It is just a novelty recording like "To know him is to love him" with David Bowie on sax or "New York Girls" with Peter Sellers on uke and strange voices :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:35 AM

"and find out what they consider to be songs that they are happy with at folk clubs"
How about folk songs - that would be a good start
You don't go into a greengrocer's and be told "we don't do vegetables anymore - wuld you settle for paraffin?"
"McTell or Sheran do. "
No - whAt particular folk styles do you think they use - particularly Sheran
McTell can be said to have some traces of blues in his compositions, but f.a.l. to do with British folk styles
Why the hell should those looking for folk have to negotiate an alternative - what sort of outfit are you running?
As you say - you go to a club to hear folk songs not anything other than which has the folk label hung on it
It's a pity the Trades Descriptions Act doesn't apply to the folk scene - you's all be in Carey Street !
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:34 AM

https://youtu.be/gJ39vYSMVzU

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:27 AM

Dick, I was trying to find out if it was anything by Carthy or if it had to be a certain style. You have answered that and went on to say "Nothing Rhymed" would be ok but not "Rave On". That fits in with what I am asking Jim. How do you decide what is in the folk style and what is not?

Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM

If someone suggests that they can no longer hear folk songs at folk clubs it is not nitpicking to try and find out what they consider to be songs that they are happy with at folk clubs. I, amongst many, consider contemporary folk songs to have their rightful place in folk clubs. I think that you agree. And we are in complete agreement over what constitutes a traditional folk song.

What I am trying to get to the bottom of is what you consider to be a contemporary folk song and why. We know you think MacColl, Garbutt and Tawney write songs employing "folk techniques" but you do not consider that McTell or Sheran do. This is what I really do not understand.

When I hear, for instance, "Hiring Fair" or "Gallway Girl" I hear distinct folk undertones. Do you not? If I am hearing them "wrong", can anyone tell me why? What about two of my favourites, Richard Thompsons, "Vincent Black Lightning" or Anthony John Clarke's "Irish Eyes". Are they contemporary folk or "replaceable pap"?

As to rules, nah, I don't have a book. I can go to any folk club and hear folk songs. It is you saying that you cant!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:21 AM

Jim,

Just to clarify re the Empress of Russia, I did say that I didn't know if the Saturday sessions were organised by the same folk that did the regular club.

The final night that I referred to was a regular club night.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:18 AM

dave the gnome , why are you asking me this?i have never objected to well written songs in a folk style?,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,keith price
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:16 AM

Tunesmith if we're talking about the same club and I think we are. I sang and played trad, other than that I agree with you.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:15 AM

Dave , my opinion is that hattie carroll is a badly written song, although good subject matter, nothing rhymed is imo a well written song, rave on is not a song i wish to hear in a folk club, i have not heard carthys version, andy caven sang the song well,but it is not what i want to hear.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:01 AM

Ewan always took Sam's remarks as a compliment
'Shoals' was largely taken from actuality recordings of Sam and Skipper, Ronnie Balls talking about the old days -
You can trace much of it from the recordings - the tune was an adaptation of a ballad tune from The Greig Keith collection 'Famous Flower of Serving men' - Ewan used it for a number of his songs
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:45 AM

I went to my local folk music recently, and at the end of the evening it ocurred to me that the only trad song sung all evening was the opening number ( whichis always the same song).
   As to whether a Ewan Mccoll composition is more acceptable than a Ralph McTell song, well,I would say, that Ewan did try to write most of his songs "in the tradition".
Of course, there is that famous story that McColl tells about singing his composition "The Shoals of Herrng" to a trad singer ( Sam Larner?), and the trad singer saying that he remembered the song from his youth ( i.e. long before McColl wrote it).
   We can never, I don't think, get back to the days when trad songs dominated the folk club repertoire but I think we would all like to hear a lot more trad songs in our local folk song clubs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM

Should have added
Nit-picking such as this helps avoid the real discussion on the responsibility of the clubs who call themselves 'folk' to the music whose name they have stolen
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:38 AM

The two po songs have no place in folk clubs in my opinion - leave them to the experts in the field
I was never interested too much in Zimmerman's stuff (if people insist in talking about Jimmy Miller I think I'll give Zimmerman and John Pandrich a try) and wouldn't break my neck to listen to it - it doesn't resemble folk as I know it ut as I say - you're the one carrying the rule book - not me
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:15 AM

Just getting Dick to clarify, Jim. He says he would be happy with Martin Carthy but not with pop songs. Yet I have named 2 pop songs and one commercial (Dylan) song that Carthy sings. Is it the performance or content that is more important. These are the grey areas that I am interested in.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:12 AM

"Everyone to his own". So we're done then.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM

"Rave On",
You seem to be coming around to my point of view
What the **** has Rave in got to do with folk song and why should it be inflicted on a folk audience ?
If I wanteds to hear it again I could easily search out the good version by The Crickets rather than a naff one from Marin Carthy
Everyone to his own
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:06 AM

No, Jim. I am trying to get to the bottom of an apparent contradiction.

You complain that you do not hear folk songs at folk clubs yet you have confirmed that you would be happy going to a folk club to listen to Ewan MacColl, Vin Garbutt and Cyril Tawney songs all night. You are now saying that those songs are not and never can be folk songs. You cannot have it both ways.

I think when you complain about not hearing folk songs you are talking about traditional folk songs. If that is the case I could accept that. What you will not commit yourself on is which contemporary folk songs you are happy listening to. You would be happy with Ewan, Vin and Cyril, but not with, for instance, Ralph McTell. Why is that? To me, and many others, they are all contemporary Folk.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:53 AM

Dick, what about Martin Carthy singing "Rave On", "Nothing Rhymed" or "The lonesome death of Hattie Carroll"?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM

"why Dirty Old Town is a contemporary folk song while From Clare to here is not? "
Who said either was a "folk" anything - you are the one who attaches the label to newly written songs made using the folk techniques, not me
I beileve one uses folk techniques in its make up, while one is singer-songwriterish, but it's probably nit-picking and unimportant
Neither are folk songs
You keep talking about what you "can and can't" sing - you carry the rule-book, not me
This is basically the dishonesty of these arguments - you invent "rules" that people have to adhere to
Can you find anything I have written which says that
When MacColl, Seeger, did the Radio Ballads they based the music on folk styles - mainly, 'John Axon' used jazz forms - even well known jazz instrumentalists
Singing the Fishing - mainly folk forms, but slap in the middle - a bit of Gilbert and Sullivan
'On the Edge' - pop song techniques of the early 60s
One of the best evenings I attended in the early days was around the time MacColl was given a part in a television series, 'The Borderers' and invited the star, Ian Cuthbertson, along to the club to do a night of poetry and song swapping - half of the evening had very little to do with folk

A healthy folk scene can experiment in all directions - it can broaden its influences and horizons by doing so
We don't have a healthy folk scene (how many clubs again?)
The problem is that, as Observer indicated, the basis of o=the folk scene - folk song, has been edged out to make room for something else - that 'something else' has no identity because it has no homogeneity - anything goes and 'folk' has become meaningless.

The other thing that has gone seriously wrong is that it has returned to the very thing it was set up to escape from
We first took up skiffle to make our on music - a way for us all to express ourselves freely without having to wait till the industry decided what was to be the next 'flavour of the month'
What we did happened o a weekly basis and was spread around so wide that we could fill our week visiting different clubs if we wanted
Now people talkk about 'annual festivals' as being a substitute and the god-awful media 'folk-singer-of-the-year' often mediocre displays of 'excellence' as an aim


Will you please stop keep suggesting that I am making rules - I am not
I am suggesting that the folk scene bike has a bad puncture which needs repairing      
As a researcher I will endevour to be accurate when talking or writing about what I know to be folk song - if I ever forget what it is there are thousands of places I can go to remind me
As a singer and listener, I am quite happy to go home having heard enough folk or folk-based songs for the evening to have lived up to its original description - a few diversions don't matter too much as long as there are not too many for the objective to have been lost
When push comes to shove, it is folk song that matters - the enjoyment that comes with it is an essential bonus - the petrol that make it go

Hoot
We seem to be at cross purposes
The Empress of Russia events I am referring to were Thursday(I think) nights devoted largely to traditional singing
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:33 AM

Howard , you obviously did not hear Andy Caven.
Jim Bainbridge, I dont care whetherthe singer was a traditional singer or a revival singer, i can here pop songs anywhere, when i go to folk clubs i want to hear songs of a certain genre,m thats my choice i am quite happylistening to martin carthy leon rosselson or a blues singer under my own defintiuon this is all folk music, cliff richard, buddy holly,beegees is not what i want to hear. if i went to a jazz club i do not want to heardanielo donnell, ok

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:16 PM

The Empress of Russia was a great venue. Saturday lunchtimes were very enjoyable a good mixture of singers and musicians. I don't know if the organisers were the same folk who ran the regular club but it was a very enjoyable place to spend an hour or two before or after visiting the west end record and book specialists.

I happened to be at the final night of the club a few days before the "Empress" closed to be converted into a restaurant. That night was mostly old time fiddles and banjos with a couple of bluegrass pickers thrown into the mix.

I may be mistaken here but doesn't this club still continue as the Islington Folk Club which has operated from several different pubs around the Islington area for years.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:14 PM

Oh, just noticed the comment about Clare to here. Can anyone explain to me, a non musicologist, why Dirty Old Town is a contemporary folk song while From Clare to here is not? This is the bit I really don't understand.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:03 PM

I have always been talking about contemporary folk song. You know, like the ones I just mentioned. The ones that are copyrighted, like the songs you say can never be folk songs. Where is your dividing line between what should and should not be sung at folk clubs. Why could I sing Ewan MacColl's Dirty Old Town but not Ed Sheran's Gallway Girl? Just what is the difference between the two apart from you like one and not the other?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 01:11 PM

" I am talking about contemporary folk songs."
Sigh
Why put them up; they are contemporary songs using folk forms (except the first) - nobody is objecting to them being sung in folk clubs
I'm talking about the crap that has nothing to do with Folk song in any shape or form
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 12:57 PM

Some pop songs may have merits

I'm not talking about pop songs. I am talking about contemporary folk songs. Things like "Claire to here", "Sammy's bar" or even "Dirty old town". I suspect you know that and are just being awkward.

Teribus. Why do you keep going then?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 12:50 PM

Howard -The Empress of Russia had famously catholic tastes in the music, and made no apology for it either. That's maybe why I was asked there often enough despite my repertoire including my own versions of songs also sung by Buddy Holly, the Drifters & Paddy Roberts, with melodeon accompaniment.

nb haven't mentioned 'traditional' or 'folk' in this post- too provocative in some quarters.....

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 12:49 PM

"You have to create an interest for that material - that's what the revival did and that interest was destroyed by a hostile takeover

Most of the best of the collected material remains unavailable except to those who are knowledgeable enough to know where to look"

Nope the interest for folk song had already been there ~ yes the revivalist singers were able to access material from many sources including EFDSS publications, Lloyd, MacColl, Seeger (Pete), Donegan ~ the place for performance was of course by and large the folk club movement ~~ as a natural extension of Jazz clubs and skiffle and of course music halls and the usual Saturday night home made music round the piano ~ Hostile ~ well I don't recognize that quality ~ ppl have enjoyed making music themselves for generations as entertainment

I do think that the Traditional music collections should be made more available and that is "Our" mission and that of the likes of MT and EFDSS (among others)


Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM

It's that repeated experience that drove so may out of the club scene, given the response here, I think it's set fair to continue unles those who care do something about it   
I actually heard a fairly competent singer apologise once for interrupting the session by singing a folk song - I took her as being ironic
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 06:48 AM

Last night's offerings at a "session" night at our local "Folk Club" (Yes that IS how it is how it is titled) consisted of an all songs evening that lasted for four hours and in all that time I only heard two songs that I would call "folk songs". The rest, for the most part, were meaningless ramblings, devoid of any narrative or message that in terms of tune or lyric were instantly forgettable.

As Jim Carroll has repeatedly stated, it has indeed been a long time since "Folk Clubs" did what it says on the tin.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 06:20 AM

"Jim Copper and his brother John sang "Old Rockin' Chair"
So ?
"and form a ready source for up and coming and established singers too to perform"
You have to create an interest for that material - that's what the revival did and that interest was destroyed by a hostile takeover
Most of the best of the collected material remains unavailable except to those who are knowledgeable enough to know where to look
The power of the club days was that the enjoyment of folk song could be shared and discussed - not the same as experiencing it on i phones and computers
Dave
Some pop songs may have merits but their life span tends to suggest not many - try asking the views of a youngster today of a vople of years old hit-parader
Beside the point anyway, anybody with a tase for pop music will go to the cream (with a small C) for it rather than sit through wannabes making a fifth rate balls of it

"'All my love, all my kissin'"
Heard a cruelly misogynistic rewrite of this concerning breast cancer once
I suppose some would regard it a 'folk song'
"trad only,"
Not my taste but it's perfectly acceptable that some clubs confine themselves to the real thing if that's what they wish - they certainly aren't breaking any commitments they make by calling themselves 'folk'
At least you know what you are getting compared to.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 06:09 AM

At all the clubs I went to you could expect to hear mostly traditional songs, if that is what you mean by "folk". You could also expect to hear other songs which fall within the wider meaning of "folk" - I know you deplore that usage and I sympathise, but it is now how the word is generally understood,and the clock cannot be turned back.

I don't think I've ever heard a Buddy Holly song performed seriously in a folk club, although I have once or twice heard one done tongue-in-cheek as an encore after a set of largely traditional songs.

I went to the Empress of Russia a couple of times when I briefly lived in London, and I distinctly recall Bob Davenport singing several songs which I would not regard as traditional. However that was around 1980 so perhaps it had 'deteriorated' by then.

There were certainly a few clubs known for having a "trad only" policy but they were regarded as something out of the ordinary. I don't think the term "folk police" had been invented then. I think you must have been fortunate to be able to attend clubs which had this, or something close, but except possibly at the very beginning of the folk club boom (which I didn't experience) I doubt they were typical. Through most of the boom period, which I regard as having continued through the 70s and 80s, I would say clubs of the sort I attended were more typical - predominantly British traditional song but with a variety of other stuff. That seems to be the experience of others too.

I strongly disagree with your claim that this broader interpretation of "folk" prevented me from hearing and performing traditional songs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:50 AM

....Jim Copper and his brother John sang "Old Rockin' Chair" learned from a Louis Armstrong 78. Several such pop songs in the original Copper Family song book. They all shared one quality with the older songs in the book in that they were bloody good songs to sing..... Vic Legg singing great Everly Brothers' songs alongside "The Game of All Fours"... Johnny Doughty's pub repertoire.....

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:42 AM

compared to the replaceable pap churned out by the music industry

Absolutely agree, Jim. Where we disagree is that not all contemporary music comes under the heading "replaceable pap" and there is plenty contemporary folk music that sits very comfortably in folk clubs. And that is where likes and dislikes come in to it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM

I once heard Fred Jordan sing 'Oh Boy' in his lovely quavering traditional style- how does that fit in?

'All my love, all my kissin'
You don't know what you been missin'

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:07 AM

I would prefer to see more folk clubs providing singing workshops and instrumental workshops.
I do not want to go to a folk club and hear buddy holly,cliff richard, rockj and roll.
i do not mind clubs advertising as folk blues or singer songwriter only or trad only, at least we know what we might be in for.
although most clubs in the past found a mixture of the last two to be a successful formula.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:05 AM

Well I would simply beg to differ ~ hijacked is perhaps too strong a word "traditional song" and songs collected from all sorts of singers in the dim and distant have been recorded by collectors and digitized and put into books are just that and form a ready source for up and coming and established singers too to perform

And long may it be so ~ however certainly in my living memory other "new" folk songs (or however you would wish to call them) have existed and not just from the popular (o dear) singers such as Bert Lloyd, MacColl, Tawney, MacTell, and of course we cannot ignore the likes of other guests who may or may not have Americana, blues and other musics which they performed in folk clubs in the 1960s

Folk song ~ depending upon how you define it ~ must include songs which comment on the doings of the day or recent past ~ often newsworthy but always so!

Folk song is and always was meant to be entertainment for the masses ~ before the age of Newspapers (no doubt it can be argued that Broadsides were indeed early Broadside Newpapers!)

"Masses" may of course need to be qualified


Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 04:29 AM

"Nothing wrong with that but sadly, for you, you seem to be in the minority. "
Depends on how far you look Dave
I don't believe for one minute that those who left in despair lost their love of the real thing
I do wish you'd stop using the term "like" as if his is based on personal taste
Folk song is a long defined and established form which I believe has been hijacked and replaced by something else - go into the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library - they have lined the walls with it
If you, who holds the social and humanist views I believe you do, don't understand its importance compared to the replaceable pap churned out by the music industry, then you've missed out
This really does have nothing to do with 'like' but I believe it has a great to do with dislike and failure to understand or care
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 03:54 AM

I think we just move in different circles and like different things, Jim. Nothing wrong with that but sadly, for you, you seem to be in the minority. I am lucky in that my likes and my locality do include what is, for me, a great mix of trad and contemporary. As seems to be the case with most posting on here. Just down to personal taste. You either like the music that is being presented or don't. I do.

I think all I can say to conclude is that I accept that the music you like has suffered at the hands of the music that others like. I can apologise for that but I am not in a position to do anything about it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 03:18 AM

"If your experience was typical of how clubs were in the early 60s, "
My Experience stretched into the mid to late eighties - mainly in London, but visits elsewhere suggested that London was not untypical
If yours was an example of 'evolution' (I would choose the term deterioration) it wasn't happening there
I can think of many clubs that specialiased in the real thing - 'The Empress of Russia', 'Herga', 'The Fox', The Kings Head', 'Croydon', 'The Railway' at Stratford East ...
where you were guaranteed to hear folk songs
There weer others that did other things
I was actively involved in several - 'Court House Sessions', 'The Tradition Cub', 'The Metropolitan'.... never an introspective navel-gazer to be heard mumbling his/her incomprehensible angst into a guitar
My main base was 'The Singers' because I knew I could wuld never fail to hear good traditional songs well sung, along with new ones not designed to give you jet-lag because they were so different from the rest
That included until shortly after Ewan died, till Peggy returned to America.
The 'evolution' you describe, by presenting non-folk songs, robbed us of our right to choose what we listened to - it was a misuse of a well-established term
That misuse, along with lowering standards and the lazy contempt of singers who couldn't be bothered learning the songs they sang, drove me and thousands like me out of the clubs
I was lucky - right into the present century I had our Traveller singers to listen to and continue to receive information from
That luck continued when we moved to Ireland, where we could continue to hear good folk music and songs that have become part of our lives - never though I'd say it, but here in Miltown Malbay, sometimes too much to choose from
Ireland is rapidly building a love and respect for its traditional arts, whereas it seems England (can't speak of Scotland) seems to have lost what they had of it.
I can only think of one club in London, my old home, that I can now confidently go to hear the music I want to - The Musical Traditions Club - can't really think of another
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:45 PM

I had the same experience as Howard, in fact the first folk club , i walked in to in themid sixties aged 14 was Downe folk club , the first people i saw a split gig joe stead and ralph mctell, inhose days ralp mctell played blind blake songs , joe stead sang a lot of pete seegers repertoire joe hill etc

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:43 PM

Dave, your medal's in the post!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:01 PM

Glad it's not just me :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 03:11 PM

A sensible and fair posting as always, Howard.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 03:08 PM

Jim, we have clearly had very different experiences. My experience was of clubs outside the cities, in towns and villages mainly around London but also further afield. Also, it touched only the very tail end of the 60s and really covered the 70s and 80s, so we were separated by both time and geography, although not by much. Most of these clubs had started up in the 60s and I doubt they had changed very much by the time I started going to them.

As well as the clubs around Essex where I grew up. I then went to university in Reading and attended clubs there. Later, I travelled a lot for work, and took the opportunity to visit other clubs all around the country. I even gigged at a few. Eventually I moved to Cheshire and went to clubs there and in Manchester. I have experienced quite a lot of clubs all around the country and I feel these were typical of clubs at that time.

All these clubs were broadly similar in their approach and most operated the floor-singers with guest structure. The range of music was similar to that which DgT quoted from Wikipedia, including American roots music, blues, contemporary folk, and world music, although traditional British folk music dominated the clubs I went to. None of the clubs in my experience provided the kind of intellectual approach that you describe - we were there for entertainment and never discussed the music in a club setting.

If your experience was typical of how clubs were in the early 60s, it suggests to me that most had evolved into something different by the end of that decade. The folk clubs continued to thrive through the 70s and 80s. I suspect the reason they then went into decline was that their core audience became preoccupied by family and professional commitments - that was certainly my own reason for stopping.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 03:02 PM

Jim,

If you checked what you post here before hitting the send key it might save time and confusion.

It might also help if you read other peoples posts and digested them before firing off at half cock.

I did not state 7 year old songs nor even 70 year old songs.

I doubt also that even the songs which you are happy to call folk songs survived without being repeated. Walter Pardon would never have learnt many of his songs without hearing his uncle repeatedly singing them unless he had a photographic memory. AND before you misconstrue that I AM NOT belittling Walter.

Also I did say "could be" and not "would be".

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:46 PM

Ey up. Fightin' talk!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:33 PM

Dave- you gave me the figures - 180 clubs
If it's not dead it's on life support - I've seen Cancer patients gasping their last in better health than that
And even over half of those figures almost certainly have SFA to do with folk song proper
Can I suggest that if we are going to discuss things like "folk" and "tradition" you dig out 'Folk Song in England' - Bert's not the erzatz one
Then we might stop talking at cross-purposes
It's highly readable and fairly precise - and it doesn't come with an agenda (even though it falls short sometimes)
When have Mancunians ever been able to hold their own with Scousers ?
Certainly not in my time
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:18 PM

And what's this new nonsense about Manchester not having a living tradition? There is an unbroken record of scrapping with Scousers :-)