UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM

Come on Jack - he's an old guy going on the way old guys do on a very minority website.


sorry you don't get Nick Drake. I've got to admit - I didn't til he'd been dead about forty years. I was doing a gig at an outside market and there was this bookstall. On it was Trevor Dann's biography of Nick.

I don't know if you know Trevor dann's work. he's the guy who did that amazing series of DVDs - guitar maestro's. Carthy, Wizz Jones, Steve Tilston, Martin Simpson - amongst others. I knew if Trevor Dann was interested enough to write about him, there would be real substance. And there is.

His link to folk music - well its arguable. Much of his first album was influenced by classical composers like vaughan Williams who dabbled in folk music. he was certainly part of that boho Les Cousins set back in the 1960's.

He was an ingenious guitarist creating new tunings to say exactly what he wanted.

The real question is though, when you know someone has fashioned his art in our folk clubs, and creates beautiful songs like Riverman, and Brighten my Northern Sky. Why would you want to disown him from your movement.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM

Tell Jim such clubs exist Dick,he insists they are extinct.
Any club of any flavour will thrive only if there is a large enough
audience in its catchment area.this is equaly true wether it is trad,contempory or anything else.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 10:44 AM

I'm not seeking anyone's approval, Al.

I'm not trying to catch anyone out, Dick. I was asking you because you are a performer and Jim is not.

Jim, it is just your opinion. Nothing more. I do enjoy what I see and hear at folk clubs and I enjoy our conversations. They both have their occasional downsides but I can live with that.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 10:26 AM

Why didn't someone amonst the thousands of true folkies open clubs that operated as they would like,if Jim is right with his claims, the clubs would be full of the faithful and thrivin@
i suugest you visit the welly folk club or stockton or darlington britt,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:46 AM

You disagree about the nature of folk music. [Jim]'s convinced he is right. He is dismissive of the music that does it for you.

Why not pay him the same courtesy?

Because the way he comes across makes people who love traditional music look like hate-crazed bigots. And hardly any of us are like that. He's conducting black propaganda against the whole trad scene and repelling people who might otherwise be drawn to it. We can't tolerate that behaviour.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:39 AM

I could never understand why, for example, the Incredible String Band or Nick Drake were considered to be "folk"

Robin Williamson published two books of traditional tunes which made them very accessible. That fitted in with the instrumental breaks in the songs and tied what he was doing to the tradition. For me, the books have worn a lot better than the recordings, which I would not make any effort to listen to again.

I never even heard of Drake until he'd been dead for 20 years (and realized I hadn't missed anything). Did he actually label himself as "folk"?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:38 AM

I've never seen such an incident Will,as you say almost unique,but it was swiftly dealt with.If people behave improperly, they should be corrected and if they persist excluded,doing nothing but moan or walking away and they have been allowed to win.
My experience is much the same as Howard's,both sorts of club were available in my area and you went to whichever suited you,many went to both.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:58 AM

The brand name was taken over in the 60s, if not earlier. I could never understand why, for example, the Incredible String Band or Nick Drake were considered to be "folk", they certainly weren't to my taste, but the fact remains that they were regarded as folk, and that you could expect to hear that sort of stuff, and more, in folk clubs alongside traditional songs and those in a traditional mould. That hasn't changed.

You say that you stopped going to folk clubs when they stopped presenting folk songs, whereas the experience of me and others is that they are still presenting folk songs, even in the narrower sense of "folk" that you mean. I think the difference between us is that we are willing to accept that we might hear other songs as well, and that some of it might bear little or no resemblance to traditional song other than a certain similarity in the way it is performed. We are willing to acknowledge that in most cases these fall within the scope of what the folk clubs have always regarded as appropriate music. We don't see any evidence that including this music, which has always been part of the folk club scene, is damaging traditional singing.

Sometimes someone may overstep the mark and sings something inappropriate, that's only to be expected especially where there can be no clear consensus on where the mark lies.

I sorry that you seem to have persuaded yourself that the folk clubs are now free-for-alls. I admit that some clubs are like that, but I find that in most clubs I will hear folk music, however you want to define it.

I have other reasons for not attending clubs so often these days, the standard of performance being one of them, but when I want to hear traditional songs I can usually be confident that I can find them.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Tootler sans Cookie
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:44 AM

One thing that strikes me about these discussions is the intolerance of each others perspectives.

There is no one way to interpret a folk song, as with any other form of music.

If you don't like someone else's interpretation, so be it. It doesn't mean it's wrong, or necessarily even a poor interpretation.

I think it's worth bearing in mind Martyn Carthy's comment on folk song.

"The worst thing we can do with these songs is not to sing them"

Think on that when you condemn someone else's version of a traditional song.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:15 AM

"
I'm not suggesting that clubs are open to anybody who walks in of the street doing any thing they like with no regard to club policy."
That's always happened - too regularly, but more than that - you've taken over the brand name
I stopped going to folk clubs whe they stopped presenting folk songs - as did thousands of others
What I've bgained from conversations here is that quite a few people don't actually like folk song - some pay lip service by patronising its importance but on a number of occasions some have been openly hostile
THat cannot be a "healthy" folk scene - in fact it's sharp practice

There is a legend that Pete Seeger took an axe to the amplifier cables when Dylan appeared at Newport - denied
The more heartwarming and not quite the same occasion was when Joe Heaney appeared at a Clancy Brothers concert in Dublin Concert the audience tried to boo him off the stage until Liam demanded that they listen to him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 08:25 AM

I've never seen any performer bring his own enforcers and force the audience to listen.

I have - just the once. It was at the BBC Folk Club - "Clanfolk" - in the Marquis of Clanricarde in Bayswater in the early 1970s. The booked act was Martin Carthy, and I was the then organiser and booker. Just as Martin had started his act, in walks Dominic Behan, pissed, with two large Irish blokes with him - very obviously his "minders".

Behan stalked to the front of the stage, pushed Martin in the chest - Martin stumbled back, luckily into a chair - and then proceeded to sing Irish rebel/anti-English songs at the top of his voice. Being in no mood to tackle two large blokes - though I would have happily slung Behan out if he'd been on his own - I went downstairs and summoned Danny, the even larger Irish landlord. Up came Danny and out went the trio.

What struck me afterwards was Martin's calmness and patience at the time - though he remembered it all with a grimace when I met him, many years later at a Christmas concert in Shoreham!

But that's the one and only time I've encountered such an incident at a folk club.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:51 AM

That should read if they do

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:49 AM

"Anybody who suggests that clubs are open to anybody walking in from the street and presenting whatever they wish can have no regard either for the people whoi put in te original hard work of the music itself
Arrogance and identity theft are the terms that spring to my mind"

I'm not suggesting that clubs are open to anybody who walks in of the street doing any thing they like with no regard to club policy.
Clubs have a policy and should not tolerate uninvited behavior,if they don't they only have themselves to blame,I've never seen any performer bring his own enforcers and force the audience to listen.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM

"Not arrogant Jim,if you run the club you set the rules,if performers flout the rules you don't give them a spot."
Arrogabt yes - the clubs were set up to give a platform to a certain type of song
An openly aggressive hostile takeover is as arrogant as as it gets "might is right"
It doesn't just include the clubs - it also includes the brand name, which has done incalculable damage to the real thing
You must be aware of the numerous court battles that have occurred over identity theft by products - from hamburgers to champagne - and how much it costs for a manufacturer to protect his/her product   
Anybody who suggests that clubs are open to anybody walking in from the street and presenting whatever they wish can have no regard either for the people whoi put in te original hard work of the music itself
Arrogance and identity theft are the terms that spring to my mind
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM

Not arrogant Jim,if you run the club you set the rules,if performers flout the rules you don't give them a spot.
If the club was set up by true folkies they should have enforced their policy.If the club was set up to include other material the true folkies should tolerate that policy or find a club to their taste.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:23 AM

I really don't understand why you're all so anxious to get Jim's seal of approval.
You've seen what he thinks is the real deal.

You disagree about the nature of folk music. He's convinced he is right. He is dismissive of the music that does it for you.

Why not pay him the same courtesy?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM

Sorry Freddie
I really am having a problem with my sound on Mudcat so I can't listen to it
I've read the text and it seems fine

"Why didn't someone amonst the thousands of true folkies open clubs that operated as they would like,
It took many years of organisation and united effort to organise the present scene - a century, if you count EFDSS
The clubs gradually deteriorated
Quite frankly I find it arrogant that somebody should say, "We've taken over your clubs - now **** of and organise some more (that we might or might not decide to take over if the mood takes us)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:32 AM

Jim, what are your thoughts on modern songs like The Famous Flashing Lane?

thread.cfm?threadid=164469#3983538 > video link

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:32 AM

Jim keeps telling us that thousands of true folk followers, including himself, abandonded folk clubs when they became contaminated with non trad material.The same occured when people became discontented with the Catholic church and its rituals.
Those who left the Catholic church set up their own churches such as Methodist, Quacker and many others.These churches are still around after
centuries.
Why didn't someone amonst the thousands of true folkies open clubs that operated as they would like,if Jim is right with his claims, the clubs would be full of the faithful and thriving.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:25 AM

"In your opinion, Jim. Mine differs."
A total cop out Dave
I have laid out in detail exactly why what you are putting up is boring - in a couple of words THEY ARE TOTALLY ONE-DIMENSIONAL
Show where that is not the case
If you refuse to do so you are as ballsless as your songs
Show us you comic songs, your family and social dramas, your epics, your tragedies, your erotic encounters, your wars, your examoles of great injustices, your struggles for justice and betterment, your massive examples of inequality, your social and personal triumphs and failures, your great stories, your supernatural tales, your battles with the elements....
I can give you examples of all of these and much more fro folk songs
Can you give me any from your limp-wristed pap ?
I very much doubt it

Now - ask me a question instead of answering mine - that's what I've come to expect from this discussion

That you are "happy" with wwhat you hear in clubs says a lot about you and the clubs - nothing whatever about the music
I'm happy with a good episode of Holby City - doesn't make either of them anything more than disposable chewing gum - good for a fw minutes chew if you like that sort of thing, but nothing more

I can't play your link (browser problems)
I'll try and solve the problem and, if I do, I promise I'll give it far more attention than you have given any of my clips
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM

you are asking two different questions would i do it or is it suitable for folk clubs, so why are you asking ME these questions, why ndo you not ask jim carroll.let us look at the lyrics
I was twenty-four years old
When I met the woman I would call my own
Twenty-two grand kids now growing old
In that house that your brother bought ya
On the summer day when I proposed
I made that wedding ring from dentist gold
And I asked her father, but her daddy said, "No
You can't marry my daughter"
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
Well, met her at Guy's in the second world war
And she was working on a soldier's ward
Never had I seen such beauty before
The moment that I saw her
Nancy was my yellow rose
And we got married wearing borrowed clothes
We got eight children now growing old
Five sons and three daughters
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
From her snow white streak in her jet black hair
Over sixty years I've been loving her
Now we're sat by the fire in our old armchairs
You know Nancy, I adore ya
From a farm boy born near Belfast town
I never worried about the king and crown
'Cause I found my heart upon the southern ground
There's no difference, I assure ya
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border
now let us look at a song it reminds me of
I've got a pal,
    A reg'lar out an' outer,
    She's a dear good old gal,
    I'll tell yer all about 'er.
    It's many years since fust we met,
    'Er 'air was then as black as jet,
    It's whiter now, but she don't fret,
    Not my old gall

    We've been together now for forty years,
    An' it don't seem a day too much,
    There ain't a lady livin' in the land
    As I'd swop for my dear old Dutch.

    I calls 'er Sal,
    'Er proper name is Sairer,
    An' yer may find a gal
    As you'd consider fairer.
    She ain't a angel — she can start
    A-jawin' till it makes yer smart,
    She's just a woman, bless 'er eart,
    Is my old gal!

    We've been together now for forty years,
    An' it don't seem a day too much,
    There ain't a lady livin' in the land
    As I'd swop for my dear old Dutch.

    Sweet fine old gal,
    For worlds I wouldn't lose 'er,
    She's a dear good old gal,
    An' that's what made me choose 'er.
    She's stuck to me through thick and thin,
    When luck was out, when luck was in,
    Ah wot a wife to me she's been,
    An' wot a pal!

    We've been together now for forty years,
    An' it don't seem a day too much,
    There ain't a lady livin' in the land
    As I'd swop for my dear old Dutch.

    I sees yer Sal —
    Yer pretty ribbons sportin'
    Many years now, old gal,
    Since them young days of courtin'.
    I ain't a coward, still I trust
    When we've to part, as part we must,
    That Death may come and take me fust
    To wait... my pal!

    We've been together now for forty years,
    An' it don't seem a day too much,
    There ain't a lady livin' in the land
    As I'd swop for my dear old Dutch.
Dave , i have never had an inclination to sing the AlberrtChevalier song so why would i want to sing the ed sheeran song,
as for suitabilty in folk clubs, I sing what i want to sing, I let other people sing whatever they want, however that does not mean i would pay money to see certain performers, i would not bother to pay money too see ed sheeran, however i would pay to see alf garnett in concert, because he is so funny and because he makes good political points through satire, but i would not go to see him [alf ]in a folk club,
dave, you speak with a forked tongue you cannot catch me out, enjoy this clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp8aTvVqE7I

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM

But of a tangent but that is what I like about browsing stuff. I came across this Lancashire song and loved the auto generated sub titles. Hope Dereck sees it. He would have a good laugh :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:57 AM

In your opinion, Jim. Mine differs.

I am happy with what I hear at folk clubs in the main. You are not. That is all this boils down to.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:50 AM

"the Lloyd Griffith's version."
Which is every bit as unfolky and uninterpreted as the former one
A clever-clever intrusive guitar display accompanied by hiccoughy-delivered words which are delivered without a a shred of interpretation or emotion - a skillful piece of musical dexterity - not a song - as far as you can get from the emotionally filled narrative stories that make up our folk repertoire as you can get
It is certainly not unpleasant, far more pleasurable than the musical-soup immersed stuff that Dave put up, but it bears no resemblance to any folk song I know
Dave has failed miserably to place hi claims next to - perhaps you can place that next to a traditionally rendered piece it in any way resembles ?

The thing that strikes me about all the stuff that is being claimed as being folk coincides with the reason I walked away from pop song if that IT IS ALL SO BORINGLY LIMITED
They are virtually all humourless and plotless - more often than not, nameless, faceless, jobless, interest-less non-people whingeing about failed relationships, or couples whose world doesn't extend beyond each other.... very little else.
It doesn't matter too much what they are about because the instruments, if they don't actually drown out the words, render any plots the songs may have totally irrelevant - these songs are designed for the listener to listen to the music
Occasionally - very occasionally, a song extends beyond this and puts up a cardboard world resembling a poorly constructed set from an early film noire - no place, no people, no life, nothing - DULL-DULL-DULL

Our folk songs are diametrically the opposite - love yes, but usually directly linked to other aspects of life, parting, but yes, but usually far more than some feller running of with your girlfriend - far more likely to be about being pressed to sea, or social misalliance, or lack of a job, or war..... real situations

I don't see a great deal of real humour in your songs - no funny stories like The Tailor's Britches, or The Old Drover, or The Ranter Parson... or the many, many more humourous pieces that make up the folk repertoire
No cleverness such as that found in The Penny Wager or The Crafty Farmer
No excitement that even approaches the epic Farmer Michael Hayes, or The Rambling Royal
No real tragedy except losing your girl or feller, which is basically the only thing to be identified with in the pop repertoire   
No real sexual encounters, no eroticism, so seduction - if there is sex, it's penisless and fannyless - sex with no balls
Certainly there are certainly no substantial stories to the substitutes you are offering to folk songs -
The plots of the ballads are as exciting and absorbing as anything in literature - from Shakespeare to modern novels and plays - good films.
Your songs are to be sung at people - they certainly don't invite you to be part of them - little more than musical sounds

We used to have occasional evenings in the Singers Club entitled 'You Name It, We Sing It' where the audience was asked to pass up subjects for songs rather than requests
The idea was that the subjects were referred to, which then referred to to an existing song - or even just a random topic
Only the singer with large repertoires participated - I can never remember them being stymied - nearly on one occasion when someone wrote on the slip "unpaid brickie goes berserk and slays two" - Bert Lloyd eventually obliged with Lamkin

Al Whittle described the folk repertoire as dull "and some of us prefer colours other than rustic sepia"
Quite honestly, I can't think of anything as dull as the monotone, peopleless, plotless stuff you people are putting up as an alternative to folk song
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:24 AM

Unaccompanied singing is all about breathing (I am sure some realise this) using normal speaking phrasing and of course odd spoken word and stops etc ~ accompaniments using instruments (yea what else?)

This is at odds from accompaniments which tends to want to impose a straighter rythmical delivery ~ as Sandman says ~ accompaniments should be just that and and it is imortant not to impose and change the most important part ~ the delivery of the song storyline ~ that is get in the way!

Accompanists CAN of course on occasion ADD to the overall delivery of the song and convey an artistically pleasing "package" to the hearers

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:15 AM

...same question to any of the other performers on here as well.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM

Just out of interest, Dick, would you perform "Nancy Mulligan" at a folk club? I'm not asking you to actually do it, just if you think it would be suitable given the right treatment.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM

about singing , i know when i sing a song unaccompanied, stylistically i sing differently from when i accompany it, i recently was the invited guest at cork singers club , i practised all the songs beforehand because i had to sing all the songs unaccompanied, imo without harmonic acoompaniment it is important to use vocal linear embellishmen to some extent ,definitely to a greater extent, how much is of course a matter of taste, and the embellishments imo should not detract from the storyline, imo emeblishment should not be the be all and end all, but that is only my opinion

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM

Thank, Dick, I knew someone would put up some traditional songs. I really don't want any bookings though, I don't know enough songs!

The whole point of my clips, Jim, is to show that even traditional songs can be "popped up". I have chosen the artists precisely because you would not get them in a folk club but you could get the songs. The song I have put up as being in the folk idiom has passed every single one of your tests and no one but you is saying the song would be out of place in a folk club provided it is performed in a folky manner. Just as there are some some songs that would normally be welcome but would be out of place with the wrong treatment.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 03:06 AM

so we can safely say that the vast majority of songs in cecil sharp house collection are folk songs. Hoot i will listen, but i still maintain that peggy seegers accompaniments are good accompaniments , that does not mean someone else might do it better, but when we compare PEGGYS ACCOMPANIMENTYS TO THAT EXAMPLE OF THE WOLF TONES imo peggys accompaniments are beTter
CUMBERLAND GAP frank profitt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnA--ErxGG8

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:48 PM

Dick,

Re the Seeger / Paley clip above and Peggy's version of Cumberland Gap.

Compare it to this version. It's a no contest. One is by a folk musician from the mountains of North Carolina,the other is by a classically trained middle class musician from the city.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnA--ErxGG8


I am not passing judgement but I know which I prefer.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 03:46 PM

mention of the Wolfe Tones reminds me of a John McKenna committee discussion in 2014 about how to publicise the double CD of the entire McKenna recorded material. This magnificent production is still available at 20 euro from www.johnmckenna.ie by the way...
Anyway, various methods were planned & one member said he'd heard from one of the Wolfe Tones on tour in Australia that he would put the word out.

'Wolfe Tones' said the chairman 'these days should that not be the Continuity Wolfe Tones?'

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 03:25 PM

Nancy Mulligan is as far from the tradition asyou can get
Blimey Jim! , I might bookmark this page.
See you back here ... 2039?

I've not noticed any particular comments about it so here is the link again to the Lloyd Griffith's version.
https://youtu.be/IdHgXlnhnKk?t=0m20s 
I wonder how Brian Peters or Thomas McCarthy would treat it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:34 PM

peggy and tom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CVUE6z76tw

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:33 PM

here are two musicians singers who wre part of the sixties folk club boom,tom paley peggy seeger
Dave the gnome,take note, when you can do that, you will be worth booking.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:06 PM

here is another version of a folk song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jCTeQdBFP8
so two versions of whats is without a doubt a folk song[[cecil sharp thought so too] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko2UKE75en0

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:05 PM

"accompaniment means the accompaniment following the singer, "
Thanks Dick - there's a lorra lorra singers who need to hear that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 01:55 PM

"Star of the County Down" is an Irish ballad set near Banbridge in County Down, in Northern Ireland. The words are by Cathal McGarvey (1866–1927).whether itis tradtional is debatable , neither are the wolfe tones performing it in a tradtional style, they do not seem to understand that accompaniment means the accompaniment following the singer, her is a good example of a folk song accompanied in a better way.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko2UKE75en0

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:02 PM

Why are you deliberately picking crappy versions of traditional songs to make your point ?
We know that Nancy Mulligan is as far from the tradition asyou can get
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:00 PM

Another rocked up version from a folk boom folk group
Can't see much of Harry in their - can you ?
Have you no shame
TRY THIS - ON A SIMILAR THEME
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:47 AM

I would have put something like that up, Jim, but I thought you would have said phrases like 'Fol-de-rol-diddle-aye-a' were superficial and meaningless.

OK. How about Star of the County Down by The Wolfe Tones

Same meter, same melodic structure, even the same key as Nancy Mulligan. Now, I have linked a trad song, performed traditionally that I reckon is pretty much like Nancy Mulligan.

Now your turn. Give me a link to one that sounds like Dirty Old Town to you.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:37 AM

As you don't have the courage to provide your own, perhaps you might put anything of your own choosing
BESIDE THIS PLEASE
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:18 AM

I have been asking you to put up something traditionallly performed up against one of your examples for over a week now

The link I sent was of Nancy Mulligan performed by a man on his own with a guitar. Other that his baseball cap it is pretty traditional. What else do you want?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 10:43 AM

Davce
I am appalled that you should attempt to pass of a rochked-up version of Dirty Old Town in order to show how folk songs compare with the dross sheeran pumps out - that is as dishonest as it gets
Our folk songs are basically for solo penaccompanied - you offer the exact opposite
I have been asking you to put up something traditionallly performed up against one of your examples for over a week now and now you dare to asrformances and are uk me to do te same without having the courtesy to comply
And you continue to press your case - without proof
I really did think better of you than this
Over and out
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 10:33 AM

Tell you what, Jim. You put up a traditional song that sounds like Dirty Old Town to you and I will put up one that sounds like Nancy Mulligan to me.

Finished here Dave

I think I would do the same if I was in your shoes, Jim. :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 10:26 AM

We know as much about this couple as we do in any folk song and that is one-dimensional - not how folk songs work
Everything else you have once again chosen to ignore
THe fact that you simply refuse to put the song against comparable traditional one makes it quite clear that there isn'tyt one
Finished here Dave
Telli it to the marines, I've totally lost interest in yoyur non responsive argument about one song
The fact that you have been totally dishonest by givinmg Dirty Old Town being sung like a pop songs confirms that you are taking the piss
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

Vic - I mean real people oin relation to teh songs and their makers and singers , of course - you've been on the scene long enough to know that

Thanks for the explanation.... but if you mean "Working class people - as defined by me - who in the past have sung songs that might be regarded as folk songs using the definition that I favour." then, for the sake of clarity, you ought to use words something like I have chosen rather than misusing "real people".
There is also a problem these days with the phrase 'Voice of the People'. I know that you mean the fabulous and continuing sets of albums of traditional song and music released by Topic but it we were to move outside the very small pond that we are both swimming in, I think you will find that for most people that phrase has come to mean "The way around 31% of the British electorate voted in the 2016 EU Referendum which now must be carried out whatever the subsequent negotiations have revealed about the underhand practices of both sides but mainly the leave campaign and the ignominy and economic disaster that this will bring to the UK and the entire island of Ireland."
We are communicating on a public forum, not by private emails and anyone can read what is posted here.
In writing this I am calling for clarity.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:58 AM

Two pieces of information about facekless jobless ckassless people

You are having a laugh, Jim. We know everything about this young couple. Their names, ages, occupations, where they lived, how long they were together, where they got their house from, how many children they had, how many grandchildren they had, the fact that her father did not like him and they ran off to get married and that they were poor working class Irish people.

What do we know about the couple in Dirty Old Town? He met her by a piece of waste ground and gave her one up against the gass yard wall. And you call the former superficial nonsense.

You want clips? Here you go.


Nancy Mulligan


Dirty Old Town

Not sure what you are going to do with them apart from you like one and not the other.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:32 AM

The clue lies in the description 'The Voice of the People' or maybe you believe Bert and Topic were referring to The Royal Family
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:30 AM

"I for one have been repeatedly telling you that traditional folk songs continue to be at the heart of folk clubs and other folk events"
And everybosdy else keeps telling me taht this is not the case and providing me with poor substitutes
In the long run, 186 clubs as a success needs to be addressed - especially as many of these have eschewed the real thing

Daev
taht is superficial nonsense
Two pieces of information about facekless jobless ckassless people
Do you really call that charactariseation
You get more caractariseation frorm a Puccini Opera
Scraping the surface is not what folk song does
Now - how about those sound clips
Vic - I mean real people oin relation to teh songs and their makers and singers , of course - you've been on the scene long enough to know that
Jim