UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:54 AM

the willie clancy week started in 1973,CCE was formed in 1951, for 22 years before willie clancy week, CCE WAS RESPONSIBLEFOR THE PROMOTION OF IRISH TRAD MUSIC, THE FLEADHS WERE WELL ATTENDED AND DESPITE THE COMPETITIVE FAULTS OF CCE,CCE were responsible for the growth and interest of trad irish music before willie clancy week was formed.
Jim Carroll lives in clare, which is without a doubt the strongest county for trad music kerry is also strong,north cork strong, west cork is middling and some of the other counties particulasrly in the midlands prefer country music.
jim c is genralising from the particular, irish trad music is not soaring it is strong in places and weak in others, in clare, kerry sliabh luchra, it is strong in dublin it is to some extent tourist orientated and commercialised[ does that make it strong , that is arguable] in at least half the counties country music is preferred, trad music and unaccompanied singing is tolerated because the tourists like it, that is a sad fact but perhaps it is better than it not being there at all

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM

So, Jim, if the melody does matter, tell us how you decide if it is a suitable melody for a song in the folk idiom of not. Surely it cannot be by the "if it sounds like a folk song" method because, as we have proved in the last few hundred posts, what sounds like a folk song to some does not to others.

Just re-reading your reply of to me

I'm really not going to respond to you if you couch your postings in such language Dave - these are observations - not fifth form exams

You are defining what the folk idiom is. That is more than an observation. If you expect me to respond, I do need to be absolutely clear what your points are. As we have just shown with the point about the melody. Make clear what you are asking or stop complaining that I have not answered.

I wish you'd stop using 'folky' - it has connotations and is not what I said - 'folk style' will do nicely

No. Sorry. Folky is fine and has no such connotations as far as I am concerned.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 03:29 AM

Excellent study
Many of the examples of his recordings covered in this important work can be heard on the Topic continuing series, 'The Voice of the People'; 'It Was Mighty' (3 cds) and 'It Was Great Altogether' (3 cds) - the previous generation of London Irish music at its very best
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:05 PM

Reg hall was collecting superb Irish music in London before the revival started in the early 1950s and continued to do so to the end of the century

It might be a good point here to mention Reg Hall's encyclopedic study of Irish Music in London, A Few Tunes of Good Music which, amazingly, is available as a free download for all forms of e-reader. It can be downloaded by clicking here.
It is a mighty and hugeelu important read written after decades to total involvement and detailed research on The London Irish music scene - compulsory reading in my opinion.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:14 PM

""The Irish tradition was in as much trouble as the various British ones in the 60s."
No it wasn't Jim - it was exaqctly as I described
I damn well should know - we are still collecting songs in clare from singers wityh large repertoire - we had far more up to the 1990s but they're gone now
We were still collecting msongs right up to 2008
AS I said, Ireland didn't need a revival - it had the real thing to draw from - you have some of the list
Reg hall was collecting superb Irish music in London before the revival started in the early 1950s and continued to do so to the end of the century
Topic were putting out dozens of albums of supern living Irish siners and musicians
You begrudgery is typical of some of the mean-mindedness that naused you the revival
I can't believe anybody would try to talk down the incredible music played by youngsters in Ireland
The few English musicians left alive were just that - a very few
There were probably more great Irish musicians in London than there were English ones throughout the rest of Britain
The fact is taht Irish song and music is soaring while what is left of the English clubs are dying - how is Birtley doing nowadays ?
Unbelievable !!
We'll probably go out to listen to some music tonight - teh problem being that we have to choose from three sessions - Jackie Daly is playing in one and Tom McCarthy's daughter and her husband in the other
Want to name me one one-street town that's happening in the near future
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:10 PM

???

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 03:58 PM

"The Irish tradition was in as much trouble as the various British ones in the 60s."

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 02:47 PM

"it needs to pass the following tests"
I'm really not going to respond to you if you couch your postings in such language Dave - these are observations - not fifth form exams
Nor did I say the maelody was irrelevant any more that a canvas is irrelevant to a painting in my art analogy
The melody is very relevant - it's there to carry the song
I wish you'd stop using 'folky' - it has connotations and is not what I said - 'folk style' will do nicely
Folky leaves me with the impression of flowery frocks

I am happy to accept all of that, Jim. But I cannot respond to your points unless you tell us exactly what your points are. If my analysis is wrong, tell us just what your points are, else stop complaining that we are not responding.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 01:55 PM

Jim C, you really need to leave your dream world occasionally and accept that very occasionally you could be (heaven forbid) plain WRONG.
The Irish tradition was in as much trouble as the various British ones in the 60s.

It was recognised by RTE as well as the BBC or why, soon after the 'emergency' was Seamus Ennis given 'a rusty bicycle and a penny jotter'(his words) & told to head west & record what he could 'before the next wave from across the Atlantic washes it all away' (again his words). He visited Drumkeeran in Leitrim in 1948 and recorded 'Lacky' Gallagher's wonderful fiddle playing- now available in CD formfrom johnmckenna.ie, incidentally
Talk to the Mulligans of Leitrim about the state of piping in Ireland before the Pipers club was established in 1968- it was pretty desperate!
   At the time of the folk boom local communities in Ireland still had musical links to the past via such as Paddy Tunney and Willie Clancy, but that was also true of Scan Tester in Sussex and Billy Pigg in Northumberland- they both pre-date the 'folk boom'by many years.
I did expect a lost world of music on my first trip to Ireland in 1964, but my first 'ballad session' soon dispelled that idea! No wonder Luke Kelly was so impressed by the Newcastle folk club. Or maybe he & Christy are excluded from your list of acceptable musicians?
The music was also still there in Doolin- it was a community then and don't tell me today's Doolin is anything but commercially driven.- if the Russells were alive today, they'd be
be turning in their grave- I can think of no such blatant abuse of the tradition anywhere in Britain!
This is not a competition, I have great respect for many in the Irish music movement, but I have already pointed out some ways in which the British folk boom influenced Irish singers & musicians,and you don't accept ANY of the argument? I think that Irish people do not generally share your blinkered views except the few who would never admit that anything good ever came from Britain.

incidentally, with all its merits, the Willie Clancy week is in its 47th year- by the first festival (1973?) there were dozens, maybe hundreds of thriving folk clubs and several festivals with ten years behind them.....

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 12:42 PM

The 'Rubber Dolly' Shirley Ellis sang was taken from one of Lomax's recordings of back kid's singing games so it certainly started life as a traditional song (can be heard on one of the Lomax CDs
The way Shirley Ellis sang it certainly didn't echo its origins but it was one heralded as a sign that folk had come into its own
im

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:58 AM

"That's what Rod Stewart did with 'Wild Mountain Thyme' or Shirley Ellis did all those years ago with 'Rubber Dolly'"

Jim does this "Rubber Dolly" use the tune of "Back up and Push" which comes from one part of a ragtime Piano piece called "Creole Belles" written by J. Bodewalt Lampe ?

If so do you consider it folk? Mississippi John Hurt was one singer that used to use this melody.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM

Stewie
I have no argument with where Lankum got their songs from, nor does it bother me how they sing them - that's their choice
The don't sing their songs in any folk style I am aware of which , in my opinion, makes them unrepresentative of what is happening
They are nice people, but not to my taste as singers - sorry

"it needs to pass the following tests"
I'm really not going to respond to you if you couch your postings in such language Dave - these are observations - not fifth form exams
Nor did I say the maelody was irrelevant any more that a canvas is irrelevant to a painting in my art analogy
The melody is very relevant - it's there to carry the song
I wish you'd stop using 'folky' - it has connotations and is not what I said - 'folk style' will do nicely
Folky leaves me with the impression of flowery frocks
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:17 AM

My apologies, my previous post should have read 'Steve Gardham'. I thought I had that correct.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM

Ok. If I have this right, to be a contemporary song in the folk idiom, it needs to pass the following tests

1. word dominated, narrative communications of ideas and emotions
2. accompaniment, where it occurs is secondary to the narrative
3. The characters in the songs are identifiable people, usually with occupations and individuality
4. They have problems and situations we can all identify with
5. Structurally they ar four or eight line versified, they may have choruses but they hardly ever repeat phrases other than as a plot device
6. Performed in a traditional "folky" style
7. The melody is irrelevant. It is just there to carry the words.

Just to confirm I am making no false assumptions, do I have that right? If so, I am happy with that and am more than prepared to explain, in those terms, some songs that I would class as the folk idiom that you may not. Can you confirm I do have it right though before I go down that route please?

One thing does strike me in the meanwhile, if the melody is irrelevant, can any tune (not song, tune) played in a folky style on traditional instruments be classed as in the folk idiom? The previously mentioned Tune for a found harmonium played by Sharon Shannon and band for instance.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:14 AM

Jim, several days ago, when Steve Graham referred to Lankum, you posted that they were totally unrepresentative of what was happening in Ireland. You may be interested in the following quote from an article about the band:

"Another source that the band find themselves coming back to repeatedly is the collection From Puck to Appleby. First released in 2003, it contains a unique collection of songs from Irish Travellers living around London from the 1970s onwards, recorded by Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie.

Because Lankum sing a range of songs from the Traveller repertoire, in particular those by Mary Delaney, the treatment of Travellers in Irish society weighs on them. ‘We sing a number of songs that we got from Traveller singers’, says Peat, ‘and it’s very jarring and difficult to know that and see how the Travelling community is treated'."

It came from here:

Click

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:12 AM

Incidentally Dick
If you care to read Lomax's note to Jesse James, he says that it was written by an "anonymous poet"
The verse says it was made by Billy Glashade, but that doesn't mean it was - American singers tended to end their songs with a last verse saying "This song was made, written, or sung" by... whoever
Lomax's "anonymous"attribution indicates this
Stop trying to score points if you haven't done the backup work - it always ends in tears
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 10:43 AM

""
It depe4nds on the process the song went through Dick
I know of several 'Jesse James's, which indicates it went through some sort of absorption into the tradition
You might say the same of 'The Wreck of the Old 97, which was claimed by two songwriters and which brought about the first legal fight over a folksong
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 09:34 AM

Alan lomax described jessie james as an american folk song, the song was written by billy gashade, does that make it a contemporary folk song, he calls the bookthe penguin book of american folk songs, check mate, jim. or are you more of an authority tahn alan lomax

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 09:00 AM

"And some of us think your idea of folksong is mistaken"
Once again - not mine Al
Folk song is far too well documented to need my imput
If you have an alternative explanation you have to put it - your problem is nobody can agree on another - or hasn't so far
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:58 AM

"No mention as yet of the melody."

Sorry - I could have sworn I wrote
The melody is there to carry the words in our traditions
est description I know of folk tunes - "the canvas on which the singer paints his/her songs"
Works for me
Keep up Dave - I thought I was the one who didn't read what people said

"must meet the following criteria"
There's no rule Dave - that's how our songs in the folk idiom are structured - nothing to do with definition
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:27 AM

So, to be in the folk idiom a song must meet the following criteria :-

1. word dominated, narrative communications of ideas and emotions
2. accompaniment, where it occurs is secondary to the narrative
3. The characters in the songs are identifiable people, usually with occupations and individuality
4. They have problems and situations we can all identify with
5. Structurally they ar four or eight line versified, they may have choruses but they hardly ever repeat phrases other than as a plot device
6. Performed in a traditional "fo!ky" style

No mention as yet of the melody.

Is this correct? If not, what have I got wrong?

Sorry to keep labouring this but I do want to make sure I fully understand what you believe to be in the folk idiom before I respond.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:09 AM

And some of us think your idea of folksong is mistaken. And maybe it's about time you admitted that it is a point of view we're entitled to.

so please stop telling us that the music we have loved all our lives isn't folk music.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:51 AM

"I'm trying to stick to the thread heading & there's little doubt the British folk club boom was very valuable in Britain, but also a catalyst to the Irish traditional scene, which was seriously struggling at the time."
When the revival came on the scene Ireland still had a thriving tradition - musicians like Willie Clancy, Bobby Casey... and singers like Joe Heaney, Paddy Tunney.... and many many others
The Willie Clancy Summer School was built on living traditional singers and musicians and Tom Munnelly was turning in thousands of songs from living traditional singers - Tom was regarded as the most prolific collector in Europe in his lifetime
Ireland didn't need a revival - it still had the real thing so they created a situation where youngsters could learn from it
They had their 'Folk Boom period, which came and went, allowing the real lovers of tradition to get back to the real thing
The fact that they built a foundation on that 'real thing' has guaranteed a future for the Irish tradition, which is more than can be said for England
As has been amply demonstrated here, England has abandoned its tradition and replaced it with something with a short shelf life
What world do yuo occupy Jim
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:49 AM

So, Jim, in addition to your original points that I repeated 16 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM we need to add they way the song is performed. Is that right?

I want to make sure I fully understand what measures you are setting to define the folk idiom before I respond. We have had enough misunderstandings already. I

I would appreciate your views on how we decide if the melody is folky enough as well.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:38 AM

I'm trying to stick to the thread heading & there's little doubt the British folk club boom was very valuable in Britain, but also a catalyst to the Irish traditional scene, which was seriously struggling at the time.
There were few Northumbrian pipers in that county in the 60s and likewise few uilleann pipers in Ireland, but the numbers are FAR higher now- their quality is a matter of opinion, of course.

During a spell working in Newcastle around 1960, Luke Kelly attended the local folk club & was amazed to find these foreign singers' repertoire included songs his own family had. This gave him new respect for the songs, and he never looked back!

I remember Christy Moore being delighted to find Ted Poole of Swindon staying with us in West Cork - his words- 'Jasus, you two were the only ones who would book me in those days'....
So the 'boom' has had lasting effect on both sides of the Irish Sea, but maybe its day has now gone?
In Britain in the 60s, the rarity of a new Topic/Folkways LP was a major event, not to mention the legendary Caedmon series. Via the clubs, we all had the chance to meet such as Davie Stewart and Paddy Tunney, and to learn they were not just a disembodied voice on a piece of vinyl, but real people with a real story to tell, often illustrated by songs and stories.
I never met Sam Larner or Harry Cox, but have little doubt they were the same- Rod Stradling's great work is in preserving the material of fine singers like Daisy Chapman and the recordings of Keith Summers. BUT, I would always contend that this is a live music, with recordings a poor second to that and modern interpreters of the old songs lack the validity and background of someone like Fred Jordan. Maybe that's why Rod's excellent productions don't sell well?

   No disrespect to younger singers, but whatever their quality as judged by the objective observer/listener, the way in which the old songs were only a part of an individual lifestyle (fishing, farming, busking whatever) is lost for ever. Rod knows this, but even the comprehensive and informative accompanying leaflets do not bridge the gap.

Mention of all these youngsters playing & singing in Ireland- I know it's true in terms of numbers, but as Big Al more or less says- 'numbers don't equal quality' - technically skilled groups of people playing fast & furious stuff has nothing to do with folk or traditional music, nor does an Irish Gaelic name add any validity. I'd run a mile to escape groups like 'BOGEI' 'FAECSE' or whatever- this is all commercial hype, and I'd much rather listen to the Kinks- IMHO it's about COMMUNICATION and the KINKS got much nearer to that than all this alleged traditional stuff....

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:27 AM

"and some of us prefer colours other than rustic sepia"
Nobody says you have to like folk song Al
About time a few more people admitted that they don't - thanks for that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM

Ok. Got that, Jim. The performance is as important as the song. I can go with that. So, in addition to your other points, the song has to be sung in a folky way to be considered in the folk idiom. Yes?

I am not sure what point you are making about the singer though. I agree fully that Rod Stewart's recording of Wild Mountain Time does not pass the test but what if he were to sing it unaccompanied in a folk club? Not likely I know but I am trying to establish if who is singing has a bearing rather than how they are singing it.

The other question I asked is does the melody come into it and, if so, how do we measure that?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:02 AM

and some of us prefer colours other than rustic sepia

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:55 AM

Best description I know of folk tunes - "the canvas on which the singer paints his/her songs"
Works for me
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:45 AM

"(not the singer or the performance) "
Nope - not saying anything of the sort Dave
A singer needs sto sing a narrative song alternatively in order for it to do its job and communicate - you can't have one without t' other - that's what the audences came to listen to
Anyone can sing a folk song pop style, or put an orchestral accomaniment to it, or sing it like Dame Nellie Melba - once they do any of these things it becomes something else
That's what Rod Stewart did with 'Wild Mountain Thyme' or Shirley Ellis did all those years ago with 'Rubber Dolly'
They become something else   
THere's nothing wroong with any of that until you startd describing it as 'folk'
The melody is there to carry the words in our traditions
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM

Thanks Jim. We are back on track and almost in agreement about what we are discussing. Discount traditional folk, which is taken as read. Discount folk rock, as that is not played in folk clubs and we are left with the only discussion point being contemporary songs in the folk idiom. Which is what I said. I do however disagree with your statement "The problem is your interpretation of what constitutes 'the folk idiom'". That is not the problem. The problem is that our interpretations of what constitutes 'the folk idiom' differ.

But let's leave that for now and go to your points made about what a song in the folk idiom comprises of. These are :-

1. word dominated, narrative communications of ideas and emotions
2. accompaniment, where it occurs is secondary to the narrative
3. The characters in the songs are identifiable people, usually with occupations and individuality
4. They have problems and situations we can all identify with
5. Structurally they ar four or eight line versified, they may have choruses but they hardly ever repeat phrases other than as a plot device

Before I begin to address these I want to make sure that you are saying that if a song (not the singer or the performance) contains these elements, it is in the folk idiom. What about the melodic structure? Should we discount this and, if not, other than it sounds folky, how do we define that?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:13 AM

not the identityless ciphers of pop songs
I don't listen to pop, but hearit all around. That is nonsense.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:34 AM

There is excellent book entitled 'Idiom of the People' by James Reeves, which gives some superb examples of what I have described
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:33 AM

"There are two types of music that I would welcome in any folk club. One is traditional folk music and the other is contemporary music in the folk idiom."
My argument from day one Dave - I've goven myself typist's cramp repeating it
The problem is your interpretation of what constitutes 'the folk idiom'
Our folk songs are basically word dominated, narrative communications of ideas and emotions - accompaniment, where it occurs (which is hardly ever in the case of British singing) is secondary to the narrative
The characters in the songs are identifiable people, usually with occupations and individuality, not the identityless ciphers of pop songs
They have problems and situations we can all identify with, which is why our folk songs have lasted as long as they have
Structurally they ar four or eight line versified, they may have choruses but they hardly ever repeat phrases other than as a plot device - unlike the endless and usually mindless over and over repetition   
That, in my opinion, is 'the folk idiom'
How the hell does your Ed Sheeran or The kinks... or much of what passes fro 'contemporary folk" fit into any of that
The original list is on another thread I think - I'll dig it out if you insist, but I can assure you, you have not responded to it despite my requesting you to do so several times
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM

I suppose there is a third set - traditional folk played in a contemporary fashion such as folk rock. But as we are not likely to get the likes of Steeleye Span down at the local folk club can we discount that? We are, after all, discussing folk clubs here.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM

Humour me, Jim. Give us the list again or at least a link to where it is and I will respond. But do bear in mind what I have already pointed out. There are two types of music that I would welcome in any folk club. One is traditional folk music and the other is contemporary music in the folk idiom. The first is unquestionably set in stone. It is the latter that is disputed. We are not arguing about what is traditional folk and I am sure that your list defines that very well. We are discussing what defines the folk idiom in contemporary music. That is, I believe, subjective and cannot be categorised by a simple set of conditions.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:44 AM

It would be gratifying if somebody at least attempted to show how my list was inaccurate
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM

We are speaking in different languages when it comes to folk song Dave
As far as this unpleasant incident is concerned, I have deliberately chosen to leave it behind in order to keep what discussion we have alive
These threads have a nasty habit of being closed when they get personal - quite rightly
I was serious when I said otheres haven't addressed my points - I gave a list a long time ago of what I believe distinguises folk song proper from much of the stuff you and others argues can claim the description 'folk'
Can you honesly say there has been a response to this fundamental question (other than "people regard folk differently now") has been responded to - if so, where
Where does that leave the genuine 'Voice of the People' ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:32 AM

Once again a response totally out of step with the point raised. Sorry, Jim. I really do like most of our conversations but I have come to the point where I have realised that we are often speaking a different language. Now, as discussion is a two way thing, I know part of that must be down to me but as I understand what most others mean and most others get the real gist of what I say, I think it is fair for you to shoulder some of the responsibility. Try reading others posts more carefully before shooting from the hip.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM

"I think you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick, Jim. V"Isn't that alqways the case Dave ?
I've finished with that unpleasant attitude - I'm sorry you wish to continue with it
I read what has been said and attempt to reply to them - pity others don't do the same
Have no Idea where Suzuki guitars fit in with what is essentially an unaccompanied art
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 03:44 AM

I think you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick, Jim. Vic was talking about 2 separate incidents and you have conflated them into one. Not being insulting, patronising or any other ing here, just trying to help. These discussions would go much more smoothly if we were all to read what was actually said and focus on what the point really is.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:30 PM

The thing is Jim - this attitude you have - believe me is not confined to folk music.

Its a sort of naively quantitative view of things. The more notes you hit cleanly, the faster you play...

i think maybe the Suzuki method started it in Japan. Fifty kids in a room all learning ... something or other.

There are guitar institutes churning out heavy metal, jazz guitarists..god alone knows what else. But they all have twelve-year-old prodigies boring the arse off anyone unfortunate enough to get trapped into listening.

Its all over the world and basically it stinks. Of course you say, very good, wonderful! Cos they're kids and proud parents and its nice to be nice.

But privately I wonder which lunatic thought this mad scenario up. Basically I think its just another aspect of that hydra headed monster - the music business. Someone's making a dollar in there somewhere.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:10 PM

Dave and Vic, your Spanish Inquisition brought this to mind. It's somewhat over the top, but quite amusing:

Click

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:49 PM

"You are digging yourself a hole, Jim."!
Not me Vic
I've d given you what kicked off our argument - Bryan's name doesn't even appear on the list here - you never mentioned his posting being deleted and I certainly would never have made an extremely abusive comment to someone who isn't part of the discussion - I find behaviour like that offensive and have commented on it often enough when others have done it
You were offensive then as you have been again here
It's always been my experience that those who abuse are usually the first ones go go running to the headmaster
I tried to put an end to this and you continue it
I am not going to continue with this - feel free to do so - I've had enough of it
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:43 PM

Well, it doesn't say it but the post at 15 Mar 19 - 03:25 PM must be from Jim Bainbridge. There are a few things that I would like to add to it.
Jim B wrote. -
I was in West Cork in the 90s and as you well know, there was such a dearth of musicians to entertain the tourists that they had to employ a blow-in Geordie to do it!
What music there was came mainly from other English immigrants, largely with a background in English (mainly southern) folk clubs.
Tina and I visited you in Durras a few times in those years. You were going to take us to a session one night. You said "Would you like to go the Dutch Irish session or the English Irish session?" I thought it was a joke until we ended up in Ballydehob (memory suggests that the pub was called Rosie McCanns?) and I found that was true - the participants were English immigrants.
Jim again -
Seems things are a bit better now, but I do not believe that it is any more than patchy ANYWHERE in Ireland- I suspect the multiple TVs have driven the music out of most of the pubs, although there is certainly a decent scene in the homes of Ireland- which is where it all started after all!
Big Screen football TVs are just part of the problem. What were once clubrooms that organisations could hire have become restaurants but landlords who reckon that they can make more from food than they can from drink. Either that or the cost of hiring the room has made it prohibitive for hand to mouth folk clubs. Pub closures in England are currently running at 40 per week. We have lost three in recent years in Lewes but there are still five that feature sessions on a weekly or monthly basis. We have sessions in our kitchen which can comfortably sit 15 and we go to singarounds in other peoples' houses. Lots of activity but all below the radar.
You also ran a folk club in Schull (memory tells me that it was called "The Courtyard"?) and you booked Tina and I there. I remember looking through the guest list leaflet and seeing that the three previous guests had been mutual Scots mates that we had heard at TMSA festivals. Didn't say much for the local talent.
Also in Schull you took us to a session that you led with an English guitarist (Patrick Forester?) and the pub was heaving and we could hardly get in. What had happened was that your guitarist had been working away one week and you had asked another locally based guitarist to deputise - a man called Christy Moore. The word had got around and the possibilty that the great man might be there the following week had packed the pub out.
Jim -
Of course it's patchy in Northumberland and Sussex too- it's still a minority activity, as in Ireland.
It always was and it always will be. It doesn't make it any less enjoyable though. A night of good music - session, singaround, folk club, concert gives an incredible lift.
______________________________________
Finally, a short funny story. After we left you in Cork one year, we went to Clare and ended up in Miltown Malbay. We went into an attractive gift shop and were looking around. The only other customers in the shop were an older American couple. It was in the week leading up to their "Darling Girl Of Clare" festival. A local woman came in, not to buy but to have a chat to the shop assistant. There was a gap in the conversation and then the visitor looked around the shop.
Visitor - "Well, are ye all ready for your 'Darling Girl'?"
Shop Assistant - "On don't be talking! I haven't got over my 'Willie Week' yet."
The Americans opened their eyes wide and looked at one another. I think they were wondering what they has stumbled on.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM

last guest was me- sorry...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 03:30 PM

You are digging yourself a hole, Jim.

* You cannot find your 17th February post because it was deleted by the moderators and in that case all reference to it on Mudcat goes.

* By posting "ou got as good as you have, it seems to me, the difference being that I didn't feel the need to run to sir as you did" you are assuming that the insult was against me. It wasn't. You were being rude about another person, though I don't suppose that you remember who it was - but I do. Neither is the first time that this has happened. Previously you made extremely defamatory remarks about a friend of mine, Bryan Creer (The Snail), a person you have never even met. As in this case I objected not on personal grounds but because I found the comment unpleasant, untrue and unnecessary. Again both the insult and my objection to it were removed and in that case a warning to close the thread was issued.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 03:25 PM

Sandman/Dick-
             Like yourself, I was in West Cork in the 90s and as you well know, there was such a dearth of musicians to entertain the tourists that they had to employ a blow-in Geordie to do it!
What music there was came mainly from other English immigrants, largely with a background in English (mainly southern) folk clubs.

Seems things are a bit better now, but I do not believe that it is any more than patchy ANYWHERE in Ireland- I suspect the multiple TVs have driven the music out of most of the pubs, although there is certainly a decent scene in the homes of Ireland- which is where it all started after all!
Of course it's patchy in Northumberland and Sussex too- it's still a minority activity, as in Ireland, although nowhere in England suffers from the ghastly musical depths of the Irish Country scene!

Music in some parts of England thrives despite the almost total lack of support from the authorities in England, in contrast to the CCE/State support in Ireland.

Thanks for the kind words Vic, your club was always a second home to me, along with a few others & you & Tina deserve a lot of credit for the way you ran it for all those years....

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 02:33 PM

jim carroll quote"The usual line was,   there are ten year old in Ireland who play better fiddle than Swarbrick."
There weren't then - there are now Al
THIS IS AN OVER SIMPLIFICATION , VERY FEW 10 YEAR OLD FIDDLERS CAN ACCOMP0ANY SONGS AS WELL AS DAVE SWARBRICK. YOU SEE IT DEPENDS ON THE ASPECT OF FIDDLE PLAYING THAT IS BEING DISCUSSED.
personally i have not seen 10 year old fiddlers who are better than Dave, there are some very good teenage fiddlers, but while thay may be technicaly excellent and good at,l but it is akin to comparing apples and oranges
dave swarbrick played trad music other than irish and plyed it well, but he had skills that they did not possess.
Some body once said to me you are not as good as noel hill, what a stupid remark, i may not play reels as well as noel but he cannot accompany songs as well as me, we are different we play different systems of concertina, remarks like that just show how ignorant some people are , this music is not a competition, variety is what it is about

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 02:30 PM

By the way Vic - I find no trace of my 17th February posting but I can only assume it was in response to your:
"How someone thinks that improvement can be brought by persistent repetitive and badly-researched negativity is beyond me"
Personally, I find that extremely personally insulting when being aimed at someone who has spent half a century of singing, organising and researching the subject we are discussing
ou got as good as you have, it seems to me, the difference being that I didn't feel the need to run to sir as you did
Jim Carroll