UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:24 AM

did anybody ever answer the original question?

Don't be daft, this is Mudcat

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:12 AM

did anybody ever answer the original question?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:07 AM

Whoops
"plenty of evidence to show that was not the case elsewhere"
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM

"The problem I have with that argument is that what I hear in folk clubs today is not very different from what I heard in the 70s and 80s"
Maybe in your part of the world Howard and plenty of evidence to show that's the case
Ive just digitised articles of interest in our magazine collection in preperation for donating them to Limeric Uni's World music department - the magazines, particularly the long standing ones like FDolk Review were overwhelmingly traditional based, Keith summers produced a series oof excellent series which weer puerly traditional - largely based on source performers
An enerprising member of this forum, CJB has been busy making radio programmes available - including big chunks of programmers like Folk on Two - heavily traditional - bever a Elton John duetist to be seen
p to ten years ago Steve Roud was turning away non-traditional material, as was correct - I still don't see 'Ed Sheeran's 'Galway Girl' in his listings
People knew the difference between fol songs and pop songs well into the 21st century - the sell-out has been a comparatively new fly in the folk ointment
None of my experiences were 'fortunate" - clubs did what they'd committede tehmselves to do and we could choose on the basis of how they did it
No longer this case with the mish-mash that now passes for 'folk'
As you say - folk has always been a minority interest - even at the time the tradition was in full swing - this is the first time it's ever been threatened with extinction due to indifference and antipathy
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:22 AM

Jim, you claim that "by removing folk from the folk clubs you have driven people away in their thousands".

The problem I have with that argument is that what I hear in folk clubs today is not very different from what I heard in the 70s and 80s. Whatever it was that caused the decline in folk clubs, I don't think it was the material being performed. The type of music you could expect to hear in clubs back then (and now) was determined more by style than origin, and encompassed contemporary folk, music hall, Sacred Harp and other forms alongside traditional "1954" folk. What made them acceptable to the audiences was the style in which they were performed.

I think the idea that the folk clubs somehow safeguarded traditional singing is mistaken. The folk club movement as I experienced it in the 70s and 80s was not very interested in authentic "source" traditional singers, it was principally concerned with the folk revival, which has developed its own style of performance which is largely accompanied. In more than 20 years of visiting folk clubs several times a week, in different parts of the country, I saw only two traditional singers in folk clubs - the Copper Family and Walter Pardon. For the first 10 years of my involvement in folk I was simply unaware that authentic traditional music still existed, with the exception of the Coppers (who I took to be a unique and anachronistic survival).

The regrettable fact is that authentic traditional singing and playing has always been a minority interest, even amongst those who who are interested in folk music. For most of them, this means "revival folk". Traditional singing is too raw and too different from what they are accustomed to listening to, especially when it is only available on record without the immediacy of being in the room. This is hard core stuff, and most people who enjoy revival folk don't make that leap.

I think Jim may have been exceptionally fortunate in being involved in particular folk clubs and with a particular group of people who took a special interest not only in traditional music and traditional singers but in understanding it and discussing it. I don't think this was typical of most clubs, certainly not by the time I became involved at the end of the 60s, when the clubs were places of entertainment rather than study.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:11 AM

Purely out of interest, the site I often use for research of songs is 'Mainly Norfolk'.

I like their sub-title. "English Folk and Other Good Music" :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM

"I do call what I do folk."
Then you need to justify your doing so in order to make sense of what you do

I have justified it, Jim. I have put up links of me performing what I do. You keep telling us it is not folk but do not tell us why. There are 4 clips of me doing what I do. They are.

1. The old cock crows. Unaccompanied. Folk song.
2. Guitar piece, The waltz of the bells. Learned off my Dad who learned it from Gypsies in his native Poland before the war. You don't get much more folky.
3. The wind than shakes the barley. Sung with concertina accompaniment. OK, this may be debatable as it is contemporary, written by Peter Knight in the 1990s. I think it uses the folk idiom pretty well though.
4. Tommy don't go. Waltz tune played on traditional anglo concertina. I got this from a concertina tutor. Presumably written by the author who's name escapes me. If you want to dispute this one as it has a known writer, fine. Just dismiss all of O'Carolan's work while you are at it.

So, there you have it. Justification for what I do. NB Not what I think or what I like, but what I do. Actions speak louder than words.

Once again, how is what I do not folk? If it is not, I obviously need to stop doing it in folk clubs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Liamtho
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:49 AM

I have just written a nostalgic song looking back on my early years in Folk.

https://soundcloud.com/user-510776558/sing-a-song-of-yesterday

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:47 AM

A simple point
On the one hand we are discussing one very identifiable and specific type of music - on the other you are arguing that no barrier exists and anything that you choose to call folk music is folk music
The two of us can't be right - specific or non specific - what is it to be ?
You can't decide among yourselves what music you are talking about enough to define it- lets's see if you can agree on that one
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:43 AM

"It is little wonder that your arguments come across as unstructured at times"
I do my best Dave - I've had about half a century of singing and work to make up my mind what I believe folk song to be - if I am going to decide I got it all wrong I need more than a handful of excuses
"I do call what I do folk."
Then you need to justify your doing so in order to make sense of what you do
If everybody did that we wouldn't be able to distinguish between the myriad types of music at our disposal

"more folk like his music than your music Jim"
Of course they do Al - he has the power of the music industry behind him and the support of Elton John on occasion - that's what makes him a pop singer rather than a folk singer
If I worried about numbers I'd have stayed with Eddie Chochrane and Ricky Nelson all those year ago.
Your arguments become more and more illogical - I have documented evidence to identify my music, along with arguments, discussions, explanations, and social history - do you have any to back up your claim

This is not unlike what's happening in Westminster at present - a decision has been taken that will cause great harm, yet those involved plough on with it anyway - now you are using the same argument they are - "The people have spoken"
Madness
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:07 AM

...and a big yes to Rambling Sid, Bill S. :-) Thanks for the reminder. I must digitise the cassette tapes I have one day

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:05 AM

Jim, you seem to have replied to both me and Jack without taking a breath. It is little wonder that your arguments come across as unstructured at times. Please take time to separate the points so we know what you are talking about. If we stick to one point at a time there is little room for confusion.

If my memory serves me, I said your own stuff was fine - can you correct me please

I'm afraid that your memory does fail you. It was only yesterday that posted this.

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

Dave
You choose to call what yuo do folk - you refuse to respond to teh damage that attitude has done to real folk music

There is only one way I can interpret this. I do call what I do folk. You do not it folk and tell me that it is damaging 'real folk music'. You do not say what I think or what I say but what I do. The only things you know that I do are the clips I have posted of me performing on YouTube. I did ask what you call them if you do not call them folk and you have just diverted the topic. I can only assume that you do not want to tell me how you think that my performances are doing so much damage.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:03 AM

more folk like his music than your music Jim.
thats what it has to do with folk.
he presents his music with professionalism.

the people , you seem to admire - the recordings remind me of my Cecilia Costello album. Which despite beautiful packaging - I can't really remember anyone I've played it to, singing along with.

I don't think I can square the circle.

Dave represents the passion to communicate folksong and music.

You represent the passion to curate what we have and preserve what's disappearing.

Try to understand Jim. There's no Singing together in schools these days. If the austerity freaks had their way - there would be no music at all just IT - so kids could play their fucking computer games. That spirit of post war love of our country and its culture is dead.

Geordie kids don't know The Keel Row. Lincolnshire kids don't know The Lincolnshire Poacher. Cornish kids don't know Trelawney.

People who can reach millions with music and have some awareness of their roots (like Sheeran) are important.

You don't have to love what they do - just try to understand and stop dissing other peoples efforts.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Bill S from Adelaide
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:59 AM

I waded through a lot of posts without finding a reference to the greatest exponent of folk song in the 60's and one who piqued my interest. I refer of course to Rambling Sid Rumpo who was obviously in tune with the folk song revival

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 08:39 PM

"No idea what you are getting so shirty about, Jim"
Really - after all this time you still churn out the same old same old without being prepared to back up your statements
Not shirty - just disappointed
Sheeran has nothing to do with folk song - my point
If you can say I'm a grumpy old fool for not liking something you do, does that make my expressing my opinion any different than you expressing yours or does it make you a grumpy (whatever you are) fool
We appear to live in a world of untouchable superstars and indignant followers
"You say it is not folk "
If my memory serves me, I said your own stuff was fine - can you correct me please
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 04:22 PM

You are never, ever going to persuade anyone to listen to your kind of music by telling them that what they currently listen to (e.g. Ed Sheeran) is crap. All you will do is come across as a grumpy old fool who can't appreciate something obviously gorgeous and whose opinion is utterly worthless.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 04:21 PM

No idea what you are getting so shirty about, Jim. The only blame I have laid is on austerity while you seem to be blaming me and anyone who agrees with me for the demise of folk music.

I have posted links to my own stuff. You say it is not folk and that I am driving people away from folk clubs in their thousands. Come on, give me a clue here. Of the 4 songs I have on YouTube, 2 are indisputebly folk, 1 is a contemporary song in the folk idiom written by Peter Knight and one is a dance tune played on a traditional anglo concertina. Are they all so awful that they drive people away or just some of them? Or is it just me? I have a few other songs I perform either accompanied or not. I think they are mainly, if not all, traditional folk somgs. Apart from my showing a liking for some music from this millenium, which I never perform, how am I harming folk clubs?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:01 PM

Those are excuses Dave and no way do they address the fact that people who like Ed heeran are not going to turn up to listen to long ballads - and vice versa - simple logic
You've taken the folk ot of the folk scene and the fact that you won't address that makes any further discussion totally a waste of time
I and my mates turned up regularly to folk clubs from the time when I was an apprentice earning £9 a week - it was a cheap night out
When the folk scene began to bomb people were doing reasonably well economically
I'm tired of people blaming everything other than the obvious - by removing folk from the folk clubs you have driven people away in their thousands
Stop blaming everything except yourselves
Let's leave it there while we're still talking to each other eh ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:56 AM

When I was a lad, I went to teacher training college.
The lecturers there (let's be kind!) were almost to man (and woman) utter wankers.

The accepted wisdom of the time was the child educates himself heuristically. He discovers the truths of life for him or herself.

Accordingly I was taking a poetry lesson in a secondary modern school. And luckily this day, I had the one lecturer who had been taught to teach on his national service in the RAF, where he had lectured in radio communication.

Anyway he watched me. And I, as my lecturers had taught me, got the kids to read the poem out we were studying.

This very clever ex- service man explained to me
Alan, these are 15 year old kids. What do they know about poetry. YOU must read it to them. Show them what it means to you.
That's how I learned to perform folk songs. By listening to people who had to do it and present it so well, it put food on the table.
Here endeth the first lesson. Not just one set of ideas emptied the folk clubs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM

You choose to call what yuo do folk

You said what I do, Jim, not what I like. Or is it another one of those things where you say one thing and mean another? I have posted links to what I do so I can only assume that you are saying that what I do is not folk. No skin off my nose, but if it is not folk, what is it?

What do you think has turned a movement which could count a few thousand clubs to the giddy heights of - 186

Yet again, I have answered that. Very recently in fact.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 07:39 AM

coincidence maybe ?

Maybe. I think it is only part of the picture though. People are just not going out any more as witnessed by the number of pubs shutting. In the last 20-odd years many have had their disposable incomes slashed and the first thing that goes are the luxuries. From the 60s right through to the early 90s people would happily buy beer at pub prices, pay to see folk singers and buy their wares. Now they are fare more likely to buy 4 cans for £3 at Tesco's, put something on the telly and stream folk songs through the free version of Spotify.

Another thing we can blame on austerity. In my opinion.

Once again, because you disagree with the answer does not mean I have not responded.

Constant repetition that I have not responded when I obviously have does not do your argument any good whatsoever. Sorry.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:21 AM

"What do you call it? "
Not my problem - whatever you look at it, Ed Sheeran ain't folk
Then we really don;'t have anything to say to each other
What do you think has turned a movement which could count a few thousand clubs to the giddy heights of - 186 (by your link) if it wasn't a departure of folk to ... whatever you call your music
Sorry; this is really a waste of time - you really have not responded
If it's OK, I'll do the same
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 10:31 AM

You choose to call what yuo do folk

Yes I do Jim. I have posted links of what I do. What do you call it?

you refuse to respond to teh damage that attitude has done to real folk music

I have responded many times and pointed this out before. I have said specifically that I believe it has done no damage. Just because you disagree does not mean I have not responded.

What do you care about if this doesn't interest you ?

I just said I do care about what I do and I am interested in it. Just not to the extent that you are. I thought I made that clear.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

Dave
You choose to call what yuo do folk - you refuse to respond to teh damage that attitude has done to real folk music and you sstill consider Ed sheeran and co suitable for the present folk scene
What do you care about if this doesn't interest you ?
I'm responding to you because you stuck your neck out - doesn't mean you are alone by any means
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 04:59 AM

what it means is you don't care enough about the future of folk song to do anything about it.

No, Jim. It doesn't mean I don't care. It means that I have a limited time in this mortal coil and I am prioritising what I do with it. The future of folk takes a back seat to the welfare of my family and me. If the future of folk is more important to you, fine, that is your choice. But don't judge everyone by your own standards.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 04:01 AM

The times certainly have a-changed, as somebody once nearly sang"depends how you define singning , jim its was singing but not as we know it

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 03:24 AM

"Ok so what should we be doing to "save" folk song, please??"
Make an issue of them rather than "tolerating them" - sing the songs rather than hiring somebody to do it for you,like the ladies in the cosmetics advert say - they really are worth it
I wish I has a euro for every time I've heard somebody say they feel uncomfortable and unwelcome when they sing their unaccompanied songs in a folk club - that should not happen, and that is does is a sign that something is rotten in the State of Folkland
I've just poured out my heart about what folk song has meant to me personally on the other thread - haven't got time to do it again - the dentist won't wait
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 03:06 AM

"We can't do much about the real issues Dave -the future of folk song lies in our hands and we can do something about it
That is a feeble answer - what it means is you don't care enough about the future of folk song to do anything about it."


Ok so what should we be doing to "save" folk song, please??

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:58 AM

"But compared to the real issues we have in the world they pale into insignificance. "
We can't do much about the real issues Dave - te future of folk song lies in our hands and we can do something about it
That is a feeble answer - what it means is you don't care enough about the future of folk song to do anything about it.
"How I remembered it - the contemporary and the trad thing coexisted fairly well for a long time."
Me too - and I well remember the time when people knew the difference
Whether you wanted to little to both was a matter of choice - my time as a fairly busy individual with other interests was limited to my choosing to listen to the music I loved best so I limited my visits to traditional based clubs - I had the luxury of that choice - now I do not
THat was the time before traditional ballads were considered "unsuitable" or "tolerated".
I was happy to go to conferences because I knew they would be about music I knew to be folk - now, Christ knows what they's be discussing 0- ' The Little Shirt my Mother Made For Me' maybe ?
The times certainly have a-changed, as somebody once nearly sang
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:24 PM

I can't do copypaste from Facebook but Phil Edwards in Manchester had gone to the trouble to list the forty or more songs from their last session & about half have Roud numbers.
An interesting read.
https://m.facebook.com/groups/541081715914667?view=permalink&id=2183263421696480

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:44 PM

Me too, Al. In my neck of the woods there were very traditional clubs, clubs for political and song writers, and then those where anything was encouraged. I was part of the traditional club where anything that was not strictly acceptable as 'folk' was frowned upon (you could call it a Jim club) and there was a definite tendency to look down on anything that didn't come up to this standard such as the more contemporary club in the same room on a different night. Incidentally MacColl was seen by the trad club as too political! Although they did organise a concert of him and Peggy in a larger building.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:58 PM

How I remembered it - the contemporary and the trad thing coexisted fairly well for a long time.

The pro singers like Hamish Imlach were very eclectic, you might get Where the Gaudie Rins next to Blind lemon Jefferson.

I used to like that.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:58 PM

Ok. I'll put up my hands. I do care about "real folk song". I also care about Morris dancing, dance music in general and country pubs. But compared to the real issues we have in the world they pale into insignificance. Your passion is exemplary, Jim. Sorry I cannot match it. I shall however continue supporting my local folk club, Morris side, country pub and our conversations. Long may they all survive.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:47 PM

Going right back to the name of the thread, I thought the 60's "folk club boom" was much inhabited by people playing Bob Dylan and Donovan songs or trying to play in the style of Bert Jansch or Davy Graham? I must admit it could be a mistaken impression as I did not come into folk clubs until the mid 70's."
Yes you are mistaken, that happened but was not100per cent the situation,OR ANYTHING LIKE IT there were also tradtional singers who sang at revival folk clus, the revival was much more mixed[as i recollect it]
.Dave, if you were not present in the sixties, then you are out of your depth in this discussion

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:27 PM

As much as I appreciate the thought Al, please stop patronising me - I've already had too much
In the face of the lack of argument here, I certainly don't need it
Again, these are not "my views' - they are the documented and long "accepted facts of wht fol song is - it would be flattering to accept credit for it, but....
You've all done a great deal to confirm that my views are pretty well as things stand - a takeover of an important music scene to be used for dumping unnamed and unnameable music
Couple of bloody operations in Holby City should cheer me up no end
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 01:46 PM

I think whether we agree with Jim or not, you should respect his view. And his right to have to have those views.

His jaundiced view of the contemporary folk scene is a consequence of the times he lived through, and the people who influenced him. he can't unlive those times, can't blot out those influences.

However, his beliefs have helped him in his work, which has been for the general good.

so behave yourselves!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 01:28 PM

Sigh
Because the real thing is far to well documented
Would you redefimne Quantum Physics or Prime numbers because most people don't know or care what they are
The way things are going, maybe you would
I asked your for your definition - none was forthcoming
Checkmate, I think.
You really don't giv a toss what has happened to real folk song, do you ?
About time somebody put their hands up to this
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM

The Old pubs by Johnny Handle


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIzaX4TS0kk

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:48 PM

What definition - the people in general don't give a toss

Are these "people in general" the "folk"? If not why not? And if they don't care, why shouldn't folk clubs be guided by that lack of concern?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 11:42 AM

Tell yo what guest
You give me your definition of folk song - does that help ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:15 AM

"but it is far from being the only one so please allow other people's view of the definition to stand"
What definition - the peopl;e in general don't give a toss and those who don't accept the established one can't agree on what they mean by folk
The only other alternative is to just do away with the word altogether - you are making it meaningless
Nobodyy is talking about a "precise" definition of folk - just one that encapsulateds the standard one enough to allow us to turn up to a folk club and know what we're going to hear
Since when has the standard one been useless - it continues to be used to identify huge collections of songs such as 'The Carpenter Collection, and The Gavin Greig 8 volume set
It may have come "useless" or more likely 'inconvenient' to a dwindling bunch of folkies who would rather listen to something else, but until you get around to burning the previous collections and researched works, I'm afraid folk remains what it means - 'The voice of the people
Sorry 'bout that
Ican keep this up as long as you can - I'm answering ypur points - you are ignoring mine
I'm learning more and more when that happens
Once again - nothing to do with "my experience - plenty of evidence beyond that - where's yours - none of you has come anything near to bringing together Van Diemans Land and the songs of The Kinks?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 09:56 AM

quote : - "I have a century old tried and tested identification of folk song"
.... but it is far from being the only one so please allow other people's view of the definition to stand. Many modern scholars from A.L.Lloyd and Hamish Henderson onwards have shunned a precise definition of 'folk song' as being of little value because of the wide variation in the usage of the term. You would give more credence to your statements if you sometimes used qualifiers like "In my opinion...." or "My experience leads me to believe....." rather than making bald statements as if they were factual when they are not.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 08:17 AM

Didn't think you did Al- not your thing
My comments were directed at our unidentified guest
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 07:57 AM

well i don't recollect that big a gulf. the watersons for example got the soul cake song from peter, paul and mary - i recall reading.

The first time I saw Fred Jordan was on a package tour with Bert Jansch and the yetties and the Watersons..

One bloke I should have mentioned, whom I thought was the bees knees at the time was Johnny Handle. Although he did misinform me. He told me that Lord Robens would sort out the English mining industry.

Sorry if I bullied you Jim. It was unintentional.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 07:39 AM

coincidence maybe ?

Maybe. I think it is only part of the picture though. People are just not going out any more as witnessed by the number of pubs shutting. In the last 20-odd years many have had their disposable incomes slashed and the first thing that goes are the luxuries. From the 60s right through to the early 90s people would happily buy beer at pub prices, pay to see folk singers and buy their wares. Now they are fare more likely to buy 4 cans for £3 at Tesco's, put something on the telly and stream folk songs through the free version of Spotify.

Another thing we can blame on austerity. In my opinion.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 06:23 AM

"But the music that was bringing people into the folk clubs undeniably was the Peter paul and mary/Dylan stuff. "
That was during the folk boom, which dissipated when there was no longer a big enough profit to be got
It was then that the folk clubs came into their own and made their own music free from the pressures of the Industry
"who seems to be allowed "
Who is stopping anybody debating - unless you want to include those who use abusive terms like "folk police" and "Miltown Malbay Magistrate
We are disagreeing - you want to claim you are being bullied by one person then I'm afraid you're going to have to report me to teacher
I'm very much in the minority here and I haven't complained about being bullied
What's the matter with you people ?
I have a century old tried and tested identification of folk song which has served pretty well to unite large numbers of people around an identifiable form of song for as long as that
Now that that definition has been abandoned and not replaced by anything workable in the clubs, those numbers are dwindling at a rapid rate - coincidence maybe ?
I don't think so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM

Big Al. I think Joan Baez deserves a mention.



https://www.officialcharts.com/artist/11750/joan-baez/

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:37 AM

Not really. There were clubs like the Jolly Porter in Exeter that were very tradyy from the early 60's. And of course Bert was pretty traddy himself. Much of his repertoire was trad.

There were lots of trad songers like Tony rose, the Journeymen in Exeter, The Yetties. And of course the Spinners and the Corries were very big. The Dubliners had two hit records in the 1960's. As did Dominic Behan. The Yetties repertoire was most exclusively trad.

Out in the villages there were people like Bob Cann. Up north there was the Eliot family. Louis Killen. The young Tradition. carthy and The watersons.

Fred Jordan....that's just off the top of my head

But the music that was bringing people into the folk clubs undeniably was the Peter paul and mary/Dylan stuff. Also the Where have all the Flowers gone peacenik stuff. cos remember we all thought we were going up in an atomic bomb pretty soon.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:36 AM

quote:- "My argument is about what is suitable to be called folk - that's all
Personal tastes have no place in any of this - just judgements."

That statement would have some merit if it were not for the fact that the only person who seems to be allowed to be in charge of making the decisions on these matters is the person who made that post. He talks about "judgements"; are all the other participants in this thread happy to accept the didactic pronouncements of the Miltown Malbay Magistrate as the sole arbiter of "what is suitable to be called folk"?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:18 AM

Going right back to the name of the thread, I thought the 60's "folk club boom" was much inhabited by people playing Bob Dylan and Donovan songs or trying to play in the style of Bert Jansch or Davy Graham? I must admit it could be a mistaken impression as I did not come into folk clubs until the mid 70's.

No hidden agenda here. Just wondering if this was the case and, if so, how come the contemporary folk and even psychedelia of the 60's sat alongside traditional folk in harmony while now it seems to create such a controversy.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Brimbacombe
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:15 AM

"The Wartersons produced a nice but limited sound which palled after a couple of songs because they sounded so samey and did much what much what the blokes above did... totally devoid of interpretation... etc..."

Is this not perilously close to the 'corpse kicking' that you are so keen to accuse others of, Jim? Of course it isn't, because it's you doing it this time.