BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?

Subject: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:21 AM

Shamima Begum left the UK at the age of 15 to become a 'Jihadi bride' in Syria. She had two babies there, but the children died from malnutrition and illness.
She is now heavily pregnant and is asking to return to UK to have her baby in an NHS hospital.

In an interview she declared that the sight of severed heads in a rubbish bin (victims of executions) 'didn't faze her'.
She is now 19.

It's not permitted to revoke someone's citizenship if it renders them stateless. But she could be seen as posing an enormous threat to the security of UK, as she has obviously been radicalised and brainwashed, and has not been averse to terrorism.

There's a huge debate going on about this young woman and what if anything should be done about her.
I have mixed feelings, and can see both sides of the argument.
Anyone care to comment?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:43 AM

i've just heard on the radio that according to 'save the children' that 300 children die in conflict zones every day. there must be a real danger that this young woman's child will suffer the same fate as her other 2 children if she is not permitted to return to where she could deliver the baby safely. as for the mother, i feel she has been groomed, trafficked and horribly abused - our country should show her kindness and compassion and hope that she can recover. whether she would ever be able to care for her baby is another matter. i'd expect the state has a duty of care for the child.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM

For, I think, the first time ever, I'm in absolute agreement with Jacob "Call Me Jake" Rees-Mogg - she should be admitted to the UK, then thoroughly investigated and subjected to the due process of law. If that involves her being kept in detention during that time, so be it.

There's a petition going to have her British Citizenship revoked, but this goes directly contrary to the British Citizenship Act 1981 and, if the Act is changed in order to target one individual, I fear that the rights of the rest of us will be damaged.

She was born in the UK, and should be afforded the rights that that bestows on her, but she should be dealt with by the forces of law in respect of any offences she may have committed.

It's worth remembering too that she was fifteen when she absconded from the UK - still legally a child - and that must be taken into consideration when she is judged.

Finally, there is the question of her unborn child, who is completely innocent and who, by virtue of its mother's nationality, is entitled to British Citizenship when it is born. If for no other reason than that, it seems to me that she should be allowed to return so that her child receives the protection to which it is entitled.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM

Oh thank goodness pete! I was a bit worried that everyone would shriek "Leave her to rot!" etc.

I feel exactly as you do. While admitting she could be dangerous, it is more in line with our compassionate and civilised attitude to try and help her readjust her mental state, 'deradicalise' her and care for her baby.

Her unborn child is an innocent party in this, and should be looked after and monitored once born.

The trouble is, I also feel great sorrow for the victims of bombings here (Manchester Arena etc).

What a world we live in! But surely spitefulness, vengeance and hate towards this woman cannot be the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:53 AM

Good post Pete - I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:00 AM

Oh phew! Thank you Backwoodsman as well!

I'm trying to imagine just what this young person has gone through.
I expect she wasn't well-treated by the man/men who impregnated her.
She lost two babies, having watched them waste away from disease and lack of food. She's seen severed heads in bins and had to endure fierce indoctrination I expect, from bullying and violent Isis jihadis.

She must be absolutely traumatised, and is masking it with a cold, hard attitude of, "..not particularly fazed".

Let's hope she manages to reach the UK somehow, accepts help, medical support and monitoring, and can lead a better life with a happier future.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:05 AM

Had she left as an adult she could rot. But she was a kid.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:41 AM

Everyone makes mistakes, even as adults, and she was immature when she made her decision. I made some amazingly stupid decisions when I was 15. Luckily they did not affect anyone else too seriously.

Should she have the rest of her life ruined and should he unborn child be put at risk because of a poor choice when she was a rebellious teenager? I think not. Difficult for some to forgive and forget but maybe they can see their way to forgive and rehabilitate :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:44 AM

Her child is entitled to the best of care. Whether the mother should be allowed to be a parent is another matter. My feeling is she and her ilk pose a danger. She should be incarcerated at least until investigation is complete. In England and Wales and Northern Ireland the age of criminal responsibility is ten years. The only factor I would offer in her defense is that the UK government has been criminally negligent in its lack of action in pursuing and prosecuting those that radicalize young people.
    We hear much about the war on terror. In wartime those that pose a threat to the state are interned.
Why has this not happened?. If they pose a threat, lock them up!
In certain middle eastern countries tub thumping with a bible will have you jailed in an instant, yet we tolerate extremism in mosques.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:27 AM

well just bear in mind, she will soon be a very rich young lady . The tabloids will be forming a disorderly queue to buy her tale of severed heads, etc.

when one considers the fate of IS victims and the number of ex British soldiers living on the streets.

it doesn't seem fair to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:15 AM

So because the extremists of IS executed people and brainwashed the young and because some British soldiers are not treated as well as they should be, are you suggesting that this young woman and her unborn baby should be thrown to the wolves?

That doesn't seem fair to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:18 AM

Sajid Javid has said he will do everything in his power to keep this person out of the UK.

She is an adult now but remains unrepentant, let her stay in that shithole country with her beloved friends.

The baby has a Dutch father, maybe they can go to the Netherlands.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:38 AM

She is an adult now but remains unrepentant

She is brainwashed, Dave. She was an immature teen when she went. She has lived for years amongst extremists. She did make a bad choice in going there but once she was there she had no choice but to stay. She has suffered the most tragic loss anyone could ever imagine, the loss of a child. Not once but twice. I would give her the benefit of the doubt and say her unrepentance is not callousness but the result of something akin to shell shock.

I didn't know that the child's father was Dutch though so good point there. Is he still alive and living in Holland? If so, yes, let him help.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:50 AM

Backwoodsman wrote:

"There's a petition going to have her British Citizenship revoked, but this goes directly contrary to the British Citizenship Act 1981 and, if the Act is changed in order to target one individual, I fear that the rights of the rest of us will be damaged.

She was born in the UK, and should be afforded the rights that that bestows on her, but she should be dealt with by the forces of law in respect of any offences she may have committed."

Things have indeed changed and may well change further. Interesting article in the Guardian last November by Kamila Shamsie

How can a government exile its citizens without a trial?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM

Yes Raindog, I know about that. But whilst the Act makes it possible to revoke British Citizenship for an individual who has dual nationality - British and another nationality, as in the case in the article - it is not possible to revoke British Citizenship where that is the only nationality held.

Jamima Begum was born in the UK and has only British Citizenship, under the British Citizenship Act 1981, it cannot be revoked, because to do so would render her 'Stateless'.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06820/SN06820.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 11:20 AM

Nota Bene - Humpty-Dumpty seems to be mouthing off about 'preventing' her from returning to the UK - he is not threatening to 'revoke her British Citizenship'.

'Preventing her return' seems to mean that there will not be a 'rescue mission' to bring her back to the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 11:26 AM

I've been looking at various forums/tabloids online, and the general consensus seems to be that she's odious, her attitude is execrable and she should be 'left to rot' etc.

Also comments about Muslims generally ('scum', 'evil' and so on).
These blanket condemnations aren't very helpful, and reflect a rather vicious mindset imho.

It doesn't look as if people are sympathetic or trying to raise funds for her. I don't think that would be appropriate anyway.

It's quite true that British Citizenship can be revoked only if someone has dual nationality. My husband was officially informed of this when he received his British Citizenship many years ago. He has Ivorian nationality too.
Isn't there an old saying, "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer" ?
It's better perhaps to have her under our aegis and monitored.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jos
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:12 PM

It seems her husband was captured by the Syrians.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:24 PM

well maybe she would consent to live in your house Dave, seeing as you seem to have confidence in her future good behaviour, now that she is no longer a poor brainwashed victim.

but no, i don't think she should be treated better than people who have put their lives on the line for you and got injured physically and mentally.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:25 PM

Do you know what became of him Jos?
She's had so much trauma in her short life hasn't she?

I wonder if, at fifteen, she had a romantic idea of rushing off to Syria, offering herself to a dashing Isis husband, being part of a 'just cause' as idealistic youngsters often do. I bet the reality was absolutely dire.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:47 PM

i can't see qualitatively a difference between her and a fifteen year old who , craving a more exciting life, decides to carry a knife around - and kills somebody.

except by and large - they tend to be working class kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:53 PM

Actions have consequences. It is that simple. In what way is her behaviour different to Lord Haw Haw or Sir Roger Casement. They also supported our enemies. The important work Casement did to highlight colonial abuse, especially in the Congo, counted for nowt, he was still executed for high treason.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:20 PM

"I don't think she should be treated better than people who have put their lives on the line for you and got injured physically and mentally."

Neither do I, Al. But can you point out to me where anyone on this thread is suggesting that she should be? The general consensus seems to be that she should be allowed to return, and then thoroughly investigated, de-briefed, de-radicalised (if that's possible), and subjected to due process of law - with a prison sentence the likely outcome. I don't really see that as being 'treated better than people who...yadda yadda'.

And I'm in absolute agreement with your abhorrence at the treatment of ex-servicemen and women who are unable to resume normal civilian life due to their physical or mental injuries. But that has little or nothing to do with a teenage girl who has almost certainly been psychologically damaged by the brainwashing techniques of IS and its supporters. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the unborn child she's carrying, who is completely innocent in all of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jos
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:33 PM

Eliza, this is from the BBC news web page. It's all I know except that he is said to be a Dutch jihadi convert.

"She escaped from Baghuz - IS's last territory in eastern Syria - two weeks ago.

Her husband surrendered to a group of Syrian fighters as they left, and she is now one of 39,000 people in a camp in northern Syria."

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:50 PM

Ah, thank you Jos.
It occurred to me that she hardly dares be seen to 'repent' while she's still in Syria. Even if she did return to UK, the fundamentalist Isis supporters might attack/target her for rejecting their cause.

She could also be seen by them as a risk, if she gave us information about terrorist activities etc. She'd be a 'marked woman'.

This might explain her cool, hard tone of 'not being fazed' by the severed heads etc. She's wary of reprisals and vengeance.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: MikeL2
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:29 PM

hi

I.can see both sides of the discussion - I can see why some don't wish to see the 19 year old in this country. I would have difficulty in in deciding what would be best.

However, she is carrying a baby. this changes everything. The baby is not responsible for anything and we should try to provide it with as good a life as we can. My view is that it is wrong to separate a child from her mother. We should consider trying to find a solution where they are not split up.

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM

now that she is no longer a poor brainwashed victim.

Which is just the opposite of what I and many others have said, Al. I think you are better sticking to making up songs rather than making up what people have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:32 PM

' to be that she should be allowed to return, and then thoroughly investigated, de-briefed, de-radicalised (if that's possible), and subjected to due process of law - with a prison sentence the likely outcome.'

One of my wife's schoolfriends runs a counselling service for traumatised ex-servicemen.

I think you would find that the set of proposals you are advancing would cost about fifty times what is spent on loyal but damaged servants of this country.

still that's what you all seem to want. so i'll bow out of the consensus discussion as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 04:00 PM

subjected to due process of law - with a prison sentence the likely outcome.

Is that what you really want for traumatised ex service personel, Al?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: vectis
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM

She was a child when she left and is not yet out of her teens. She should be allowed back for her baby's birth and fully debriefed and de-radicalised.
I saw he "not fazed" as youthful bravado, putting on a show rather than coldness.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 04:25 PM

dunno....i've never seen a severed head. I'm not sure what the correct reaction would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:12 PM

Focus, Al, focus. You're not making sense with this random posting of unrelated sound bites.

Don't let her in because service personnel need help
Take her into your house
I'm out of here apart from to make daft comments about severed heads

Have you been taking Daily Mail tablets?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 06:04 PM

There's a lot of speculative thinking going on here. She's a citizen of this country and should come home if she wants to. Then she needs to be interrogated. Big time. If she's allegedly committed any offence, she should be tried according to the conventions of our justice system. We do have ways of dealing sensitively with mothers with babies. There is every possibility that she's been groomed, and every possibility that she is currently in a place where she can't say what she really thinks, and what she's saying right now should not be regarded as in any way incriminating, indigestible though it is. Beware of tabloidism, yeah? Finally, she could contribute hugely in persuading other young people to resist radicalisation. Who knows? At the end of the day, we can all have opinions, but we can only have informed opinions if we are informed. Which, currently, we are not, not sufficiently.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 06:24 PM

I'm really very heartened by the comments on here. Measured, humane and civilised - nobody spitting feathers or nasty remarks about the woman.
Mudcat folk are usually sensible and wise, and this thread demonstrates that.
I hope Shamima can get back to the UK and the relevant authorities will be able to find out exactly what she has been doing, and make sure her baby is well cared-for.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:22 PM

I agree theres not enough information to really understand.

I wondered at the time what the hell their parents were doing . Surely they must have given an idea of the thoughts that must have been haunting them. most 14 year olds never shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:38 PM

I remember when I was 13 or 14. We were a Quaker family, but we lived in this little Lincolnshire were there wasn't even an all night Gents toilet. (There was one in the park for the gay community, patronised by my Latin and History teachers - but that is no matter).

Anyway, the Mormons came to town and started a Youth Club for kids my age. They were fabulous looking guys. American accents, smart suits and they had their hair done like John Kennedy.(JFK)

So I went to the youth club. ONCE!

when my parents found out I had been involved with the Mormons, they went apeshit! in fact double apeshit!!
And that's how I was saved from a life of polygamy, and drinking cafeine substitute, and Osmond Brothers concerts.

I mean think about it! IS! Those parents must have been asleep....

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:47 PM

She came from Bethnal Green. I don't know what Bethnal Green's like these days, but I knew it well back in the '70s. In fact, Mrs Steve lived there when I first met her, living as she was in a council block just off Globe Road. I spent many a night there (I was living in Poplar meself), and we often went to the Bishop Bonner of a Thursday night to see Chas and Dave before fame came to them. It was a tough area, a place where a lot of the kids came from when I started teaching in Poplar, a ten-minute ride away on the 106 bus. I don't think too many of us understand what it's like to live in places like that. No excuses. Just an observation to give context. I suppose there's been some gentrification. But I wouldn't mind betting that most of the place isn't that different from when I knew it then. So I guess that their parents were pulled this, that and the other way, just like the parents I knew back then.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:35 PM

I do not think I have the background to air an opinion vis-a-vis her legal position in the UK. But age 15 in our day and age is still being a kid. I'm kinda questioning the presence of adults (parents?) in her life but I've come to a change in attitude within the last few months regarding women's 'poor choices' in men. I used to blame the victim on the idea that women should choose better men. But I've changed my mind on this. Why should women be better judges ofr character than the men they find? And there are a lot of crummy men and they will say anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM

Yes Steve - to be honest that's the very thing that makes me wonder.

Of course, you can't generalise. But I taught for many years in the inner ring of Brum. Mostly down the Soho Road where all the riots were.
And I would say that by and large, kids with Asian and West Indian backgrounds were much more closely supervised by their parents than most of the white kids.

Of course, times change. In those days everybody knew everyone else - there was something of a village atmosphere. No one could fart without everyone in the area knowing about it. And that would true about everyone North of the city. You'd pass on some news to someone in Perry Bar or Erdington - and nine times out of ten, another member of the family would have already passed it on.

I don't think you could set up a terrorist group without your Mum finding out.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:11 AM

I wonder where the three girls got the money for their air fares to Turkey? And who bought their tickets? Surely no airline would accept bookings from three minors. Adults must have been involved.
And they must have obtained valid UK passports in order to board the plane. Who organised and paid for that?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:39 AM

Senoufou you raise some interesting questions. Most airlines allow children from 12 to 15 years old to travel alone but must also request the accompanied minor service.When traveling with a low cost airline, children generally must be 16 years old or over to be able to travel alone, otherwise boarding will be denied.
       Perhaps the security services should study the manifests, seating patterns of the period in question and also who purchased the tickets. Should be able to generate a few prosecutions from the data obtained.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:57 AM

They stole relatives' jewellery and sold it. One of them was 16 and able to book tickets. They also held enough money back for paying the guy who smuggled them into Syria.

I struggle a bit with the idea that they didn't know what they were getting into.... The video of relief worker Alan Henning being beheaded was all over the Internet well before they left, and I can't believe they weren't aware of it.

A lot of the people I know who are saying "they were just kids" are the same people who were campaigning for the referendum voting age to be lowered to 16 on the grounds that people of that age are perfectly capable of exercising mature judgement.

I'm a bit ambivalent about how to treat her.... As a British citizen, and assuming she doesn't have dual nationality, she has the right to return, but I don't think the government should provide funds or resources for her to do so. Maybe the congregation of the mosque her family attends could give some charitable assistance? If she's 9months pregnant she won't be allowed to fly, though.

As to how much is spent on rehabilitating her, treating her for PTSD etc, I'm somewhat aligned with Al here, knowing how little help the government has given to a number of service personnel suffering from PTSD who I know from my "tabbing" events.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jos
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:28 AM

I read somewhere that she used her older sister's passport.

When the UK government repatriates people they expect them or their families to repay the cost.

Even if she does manage to return to England, it seems likely that the baby will be born before then, so (unless she is in a British consulate at the time) will the baby then be a citizen of the country in which it is born?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:47 AM

Surely the legal position is to allow her to return to her country of origin, and there to face the full might of the law regarding terrorism.

She knows this and obviously prefers a few years in a UK jail to the prison she has found herself in. Whether she has learned her lesson, is yet to be established, but propaganda got her to where she is, and propaganda could return her to society. But would we spend the time and money sorting out a mess created by youth and stupidity?

Should we punish her family for allowing her to be radicalised? Resposibility starts in the home, after all. Then again - if they are sanguine they have their punishment and would be contrite, but words are cheap.

For sure it ain't a binary option, life never is.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:52 AM

You could be right, Rob. My initial thoughts were to try and remember what I was like at 15. 50+ years have passed since so I could be wrong and even if not, I should not apply what I was like to someone from a different time, area and upbringing. Even if she was aware of what IS were though I doubt if she would have been aware of the full implications of her decision and her poor decision at 15 should not mar the rest of her life.

I fully accept that the government does not do enough to help traumatised service personnel but how will denying this girl any assistance help to put that wrong right? Surely, if she does receive counselling or whatever it will help to build a case to improve the assistance for all people traumatised by violence?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:06 AM

Some interesting remarks from the head of MI6 (made me smile as the chap was named as Alex Younger, known as 'C' - that's his cover blown then!)
At the Munich Security Conference he said, "All experience tells us that once someone has put themselves in that sort of position, they are likely to have acquired the skills and connections that make them potentially very dangerous...public safety is the first thing we will consider."
I feel he should be listened to, as MI6 must have all the details and a vast knowledge of these things, and are more aware of the inherent dangers than uninformed 'civilians' could ever be.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:01 AM

“I’m not the same silly little 15-year-old schoolgirl who ran away from Bethnal Green four years ago,” she told me. “And I don’t regret coming here.”

Does not sound like repentance to me, or a request to have help to return. As we are not in the schengen zone we can collar her on her return and let due process take it's course, bearing in mind that to spare the rod is to spoil the child.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:04 AM

Thought I'd posted this - hpe it wasn't deleted - that would be censorship
In my opinion the fact that this young woman was a child and was almost certainly groomed should be a major consideration in this case
The terms 'Jihadist' and 'terrorist' are long overdue for examination - it has been admitted that they are being misused   
Britain shares a large responsibility for the rise of Assad and his thugs - selling riot equipment to suppress the Arab Spring protests, selling chemicals capable of manufacturing weapons, then voting not to become involved in the atrocities of the Civil War that ensued
Young people, possibly this young woman, became =involved, not out of religious fervour bu to fill the gap the West left when they allowed Assad to do what he is still doing
It little behooved them to punish one of his possible victims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:07 AM

Her family want her back but agree she should be investigated on her return. Seems fair. It would be nice if she now repents her decision and is prepared to warn other young girls but no sign of this. At least if she is here her family can look after the child and authorities might be able to get useful intelligence from her.
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:32 AM

Thank goodness there's someone giving the bigger picture, so cheers for that, Jim.

As for this:

"As to how much is spent on rehabilitating her, treating her for PTSD etc, I'm somewhat aligned with Al here, knowing how little help the government has given to a number of service personnel suffering from PTSD..."

I'm afraid there's some flawed logic flying around here. Perhaps "two wrongs wouldn't make a right" would cover it.

And one or two people here are still speculating about the circumstances we're not yet apprised of in this case, then rushing to judgement. As I said earlier, let's not resort to tabloidism.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:58 AM

And by the way, whatever she says to journalists shouldn't have the slightest bearing on how we should view her in terms of how our justice system should treat her. If or when she appears in a court of law, her expressed remorse or lack of it may well be taken into consideration by a judge. I'm fine with that, but I'm not fine with the flagging up of soundbite-sized reported remarks she may be making in a context we know very little about as yet. It's very easy with the help of the tabloids to get sucked into a lynch-mob mentality. So let's not.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 08:07 AM

Well said Steve. Her remarks have to be viewed in the light of where she is. She's almost ready to give birth, in a 'camp' with possibly IS supporters all round her listening to every word she utters.
It must be frightening.
We shall have to see what transpires regarding her repatriation.
One can only hope it will all be for the best.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 08:37 AM

The middle classes are on a guilt trip because of what the British Empire got up to, and as usual Jim has got chapter
and verse - so we'll have them back, I guess.,

And as she has gallantly redressed the balance, maybe we ought to give her the Queens Award for Terrorism. There seems to be no end of volunteers here to deliver the vote of thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:14 AM

Rather amusing to witness a pregnant teenager sending a once mighty nation into a cold sweat - we shall overcome eh!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:27 AM

Rather amusing to witness a pregnant teenager sending a once mighty nation into a cold sweat - we shall overcome eh!!

Oh Dear! The resident anglophobe is off again.

she told me. “And I don’t regret coming here.”
She could have said nothing!

If you can prosecute for libel on the basis of words uttered, then words can also condemn those those that boast of their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:27 AM

Utterly unfair, Al. Jim's post referred only to events of the last couple of decades, nothing to do with empire or guilt trips. The focus in this matter should be on how we decide to do what is right, and we should be focusing on that through the lens of our justice system and our claim to be a civilised country.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:30 AM

Don't let him goad you, Jim. We're doing so well with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 11:39 AM

I think when one remembers Manchester Arena and all the other atrocities of terrorist bomb attacks, our 'once mighty nation' would be wise to be wary of ex-Isis members. Shamima could have connections who might try to manipulate her, or she might still be in total sympathy with their ethos.

Let's not get all prickly and unpleasant with each other. It's an interesting problem, and being fair, we don't know everything about the case.

I just feel it's very sad that a promising young life has been wrecked, watched her babies die, been separated from her husband, seen appalling sights and although, still very young, is again heavily pregnant and facing giving birth in a dump.
I hope a safe solution will be arrived at.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 12:00 PM

"Let's not get all prickly and unpleasant with each other."

Most of us aren't getting 'all prickly and unpleasant with each other', Sen. Sadly there are those who have no filter and just can't help themselves. Let them kick lumps out of one another without further comment from the grown-ups, while the grown-ups continue with civil discourse.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 12:04 PM

"Osborne said that any ISIS member who did return to Britain would have to be "properly investigated" for potential terrorism offences.

"I think it's a bit of justice and actually a bit of compassion. Just making people stateless is not really a solution and it is asking other countries to deal with our problems when they've got their own problems," he added.

A late 2017 report by the Soufan Center put the figure for returned ISIS fighters at 5,600 from 33 different countries. It revealed that on average 20 to 30 percent of those from Europe are already back.

In the U.K., Sweden and Denmark, an estimated 50 percent have already returned.
MI5, the U.K.'s domestic counterintelligence agency, revealed in October of 2017 that it had 20,000 people on its counterterrorism radar.

Until vetted, and sentenced or freed, Shamima Begum is part of the problem and poses a potential risk. It would be stupidity to treat her any other way.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 12:29 PM

She says she wants to return for the benefit of her baby...

a pragmatic compromise...???

Provide medical aid to ensure safe birth of the baby,
then bring it back here to be cared for and raised by it's grandparents...

Investigation and evaluation of the the young mother's fitness to come home to Briish society
can then be dealt with while she is still pending in refuge abroad...


That seems politically neutral enought to me...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 12:51 PM

Our American cousins are not inclined to be so forgiving. Who is to say what approach is the best?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1087561/ISIS-news-islamic-state-US-british-isil-fighters-Guantanamo-Bay-Shamima-Begum

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to K?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 02:15 PM

Everybody seems to be assuming that she must be guilty of some criminal activity. That seems highly questionable. Even if it is correct that she still holds the most extreme and abhorrent views, that isn't in itself criminal. She didn't fight for Isis, and she has no kind of official status within the caliphate "State".

In fact it is far from clear what her actual attitudes are, even if that was particularly relevant. Being hardened against the sight dead bodies or parts of dead bodies in the street - "not being fazed" - is quite a common reaction in some circumstances. We can't undo our past mistakes. When Edith Piaf sang "non regrette risen" she wasn't saying she was happy about things that had happened and things that she'd done, but that they were a fixed part of her.

This shouldn’t whole affair shouldn’t be treated as a big deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 02:57 PM

This shouldn’t whole affair shouldn’t be treated as a big deal.
!)https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277204743_Female_Terrorists_in_ISIS_al_Qaeda_and_21rst_Century_Terrorism
2)https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/23/number-of-women-and-children-joining-isis-significantly-underestimated
3)https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/04/how-london-teenager-plotted-attacks-with-all-female-terror-cell
4)http://caa.ucpress.edu/content/11/1-2/235
6)and the list goes on.......

Sugar and spice,
And all that's nice;
That's what little girls are made of.
The above nursery rhyme may hold true in "once upon a time land" but some of the young ladies above certainly do not fit that particular category.
Discretion is the better part of valour. Keep them banged up until the risk is assessed.

Things that go bang can make a horrendous mess of the human body.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:16 PM

The baby's father is Dutch, she could go to the Netherlands.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:25 PM

You're a man, pfr, and here you are suggesting the separation before judgement and trial of a mother and her baby. Call me a bloody feminist then, but I simply can't stomach that. Right. If she comes back and is found guilty under our justice system of heinous crimes, fine. Until then, well aren't we all so bloody full of righteous notions? I don't usually swear at the radio, but when I listened to Any Answers this afternoon I had to go outside to get some fresh air. Smug Tory effin' Britain at its finest. It seems to be trying to leak into this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:40 PM

Steve - just like I said, a pragmatic compromise to see where any debate takes it...

Especially in the light of total number of infants dieing in holding camps,
and tory indignation, which at worst couldn't give a shit if both mother and baby die in painful childbirth...

btw.. my gender has nothing to do with it...

At least removing the baby from squalid conditions of near certain death,
to the loving care of it's grandparents in Britain,
gives mother and law enforcement breathing space for a few weeks or months...

..and I repeat my gender has F all to do with any of this...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:50 PM

Everybody seems to be assuming that she must be guilty of some criminal activity.

Don't know what the law says in the UK but she would be guilty of criminal activity in the US.

In American law, providing material support for terrorism is a crime prohibited by the USA PATRIOT Act and codified in title 18 of the United States Code, sections 2339A and 2339B. It applies primarily to groups designated as terrorists by the State Department. The four types of support described are "training," "expert advice or assistance," "service," and "personnel."

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:51 PM

If she's allowed to return to UK but is convicted of a crime (and we can't be sure she has actually committed any) and sent to prison, she will be allowed to have her baby with her in one of the mother-and-baby units in UK women's prisons until it is 18 months old.

I don't agree with separating babies from their mothers, unless Social Services find the mother to be 'unfit', or that she is living with a violent/abusive/paedophile etc 'unfit' partner.

I think it would be perfectly possible for her to be monitored by MI6 or something to make sure she wasn't in touch with IS or engaging in any nefarious activities.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:07 PM

Well in this country you are guilty when the justice system finds you guilty. Not before. Oddly, I thought it was the same in the US. At least it was after you stopped lynching people.

Yes your gender has everything to do with it when you are a bloke suggesting the separation of a mother from her child. You are in realms that you can't possibly understand. You're an admirable man in every regard but I'm completely at odds with you on this. Happy to leave it at that if you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:23 PM

Well in this country you are guilty when the justice system finds you guilty.
But there is no guarantee that you will get bail, if under suspicion.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:27 PM

We don't have the USA Patriot Act in the UK.   There are laws that would criminalise those kinds of activities, though I suspect a bit more carefully drafted.

But I'm not sure how the kind of things Shamina has been involved in would fit into any of those headings. Could just being married to an Isis fighter be counted as "service" or ""providing material support for terrorism"?

The thing is, having nasty beliefs in itself doesn’t count as criminal. There has to be some kind of action involved, outside places like the Isis Caliphate. (Of course a way for a government to crim8nalise beliefs is to require some kind of loyalty oath or its equivalent. But we don't have that for civilians.)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:31 PM

Notable that even Ken Clarke said that it shouldn't be beyond the wit of a great nation like ours to contain any "threat" from a nineteen-year-old pregnant girl on her return to the country. The whiff of self-righteous bullshit around this gets stronger by the day. It's disgusting, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:48 PM

As for nasty beliefs, Kevin, well I remember having a few beliefs at nineteen that I've spent the rest of my life extirpating. Being brought up a Catholic in an all-boys grammar school run by blinkered priests in a northern working-class town in the sixties was hardly conducive to the early development of enlightened attitudes. It was The Done Thing to be anti-nigger, anti-Paki, anti-Jew, anti-queer, anti-proddy and anti-equality for women, and no parent, teacher or peer would question you. Basically because they thought the same as you. Things you subsequently have to fight against in your own head all by yourself. Which is why it makes me sick to hear all these sanctimonious bastards condemning a young woman simply for the things she's allegedly said in a stinking refugee camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:06 PM

Amen Steve, amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:11 PM

Since Dec 2016 Britain has officially carried out thousands of airstrikes against ISIS. Whether with an official UN mandate or not it puts the UK in a state of war against ISIS.
Theresa May’s official spokesperson said: “Any British citizen who does return from taking part in the conflict must be in no doubt they will be questioned, investigated and potentially prosecuted.

“Decisions on how people are dealt with are made on a case-by-case basis to ensure the most appropriate action is taken. Whatever the circumstances of an individual case, we have to, and will, protect the public.”

Security services have a watchlist of known Isis members and aim to intercept any returning via air or sea ports.

It seems the bleeding heart liberals here are happy to put British lives at risk rather than thoroughly investigate anyone with suspected links to a terrorist organisation.(deliberately travelling to the caliphate creates a definite link in my book)

In WW2 under Churchill's regime there was no such squeamishness, or pussyfooting around, both sexes were interned by the thousands.
A jolly sensible idea. First neutralize then sift and winnow.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:12 PM

The authorities certainly would have come down hard on anyone expressing those kind of attitudes in my school, Steve. Not that there was anything particularly "enlightened" about the place. Jacob Reese-Mogg would have fitted in well.

But it's true enough that if we all got judged on the kind of opinions we had at 19 (or 15) many of us would be pariahs today.

However the crucial thing here is that in any case thoughts and opinions in themselves don't count as criminal. Margaret Thatcher's father, who she idolised and sought to emulate, had a bust of Adolf Hitler in his study, But I wouldn't have included that in the trial she ought to have had for things she was responsible for in later life.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:14 PM

Steve - I offered up an idea for debate - it don't mean I believe in any or all of it..

But for debates sake...

We have high ranking tories proclaiming a stubborn no compromise bullish public stance
that they will do all in their power to prevent this young woman returning...

They are appealing to a mass of supporters who would happily see her executed, or die from neglect...
Or if she insists on remaining alive,
as a consolation prize,
being stripped of British citizenship and excluded forever.
To where, they dont care... as long as it's not here...

Now we must also have to factor in the imminent birth of her baby...

The more sentimental tories may have a soft spot for babies,
and the sanctity of an innocent unborn/newly born [technically British ???]life...

Tricky dilemna.. innit...???

I'd suggest this youg woman who has already suffered loss of 2 infants
might consider the benefit of voluntarily having her newborn temporarily cared for with her family in Britain,
while she is most likely forced to remain in a squalid camp, or inhospitable foreign prison;
while her uncertain return status is at the mercy of hostile politicians, media, and public opinion...???????


Ps.. I like the sound of that "The Admirable punkfolkrocker"...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:33 PM

Pfr unless she has dual nationality she cannot be stripped of citizenship, and even with second nationality there is no guarantee of success. The very suggestion is nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:33 PM

"It seems the bleeding heart liberals here are happy to put British lives at risk rather than thoroughly investigate anyone with suspected links to a terrorist organisation.(deliberately travelling to the caliphate creates a definite link in my book)"

Not really true though, is it? There are a number of us here whom I'd guess you, in your testosterone-overloaded Right-Wing Extremist world, would describe as 'bleeding heart liberals', who have proposed precisely what you, yourself are proposing - her detention and in-depth investigation/de-briefing/de-radicalisation (if that is possible), followed by legal proceedings should she be deemed to have committed crimes whilst with IS. Where we may differ is in where she should be detained whilst she is 'processed' as described - I'm gathering (and I may be mistaken) that you favour her being held where she is currently, whereas I and others would prefer that she is detained here in the UK where security is probably more sophisticated, and where she may feel easier about speaking freely.

A word of advice - you will get considerably more respect here, and get a far better reception for your arguments, if you dump the broad-brush, and knock off the deliberate insults and provocation.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:56 PM

Bwm - an opinion survey amongst us lefty liberals might turn up a positive response
to interning returing IS fighters/supporters...

...and what about volunteers who went off to fight IS....??


It's a matter of practicalities.. how and where...

Prisons are already diabolically unfit for purpose...
Disused army and holiday camps...???

Though, It'd be a lucrative contract for razor wire and CCTV Surveillance suppliers...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:01 PM

"Bwm - an opinion survey amongst us lefty liberals might turn up a positive response
to interning returing IS fighters/supporters..."

Yep, that's pretty much what I said....

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:03 PM

If she is near term in her pregnancy flying is not recommended and road travel to Turkey would be hazardous so I suspect she will be stuck where she is. That is not ideal as far as her unborn child is concerned and the resulting publicity concerning the mother will likely travel back to wherever she is being held. That also is not ideal. It is entirely a mess of her own making so I have limited sympathy for her. I am totally against any special effort being made to repatriate her, there are many many other pregnant women in the world far more deserving of help. Undoubtedly in the ideal world her unborn child would be better in the UK but I do not see a realistic way for this to happen without diverting resources better used elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:36 PM

"It is entirely a mess of her own making"

Christ on a bloody bike. What kind of man are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:13 PM

I would question whether it's would be right for the view on this issue expressed by Jacob Rees-Mogg on Question Time on 14 Feb to be properly described as being "bleeding heart liberal".

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:20 PM

Bwm - yep I was agreeing and backing you up...

Iains is an intelligent bloke*,
he ought really understand that we're not always the stereotypical SJW lefties he imagines us to be...

[* unlike a lot of the right wing dimwits on Youtube and other popular mass social media sites...]

There's certainly no need for kneejerk hostile insults..

We're all just ordinary folks who can find common agreement on critical issues of law n order,
irrespective of whether we vote left or right...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:29 PM

At this point in this this thread I'm struggling with that.   *angry emoticon*.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:23 PM

This actually is an issue in which the dividing line doesn't neatly align with "whether we vote left or right".

Actually, when you actually apply logic in regard to matters of political and social controversy, that's by no means uncommon. Whole ranges of issues get bundled together which have virtually no logical connection, and we behave as if being agreed, or the reverse, on some of them must imply lining up the same way for all or most of the others. And being herd animals we tend to actually behave in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 10:10 PM

Well I agree with that, but this is a bit different. My visceral response to this is as a very imperfect human being to another imperfect human being, and to a nineteen-year-old one at that. I haven't a clue as to why she made that silly decision at fifteen, though I know quite well the area she came from (I lived there myself, in council accommodation, for many years) and can imagine the pulls that she was under. I don't know really. But neither does anyone else in this thread. I'm no herd animal and I'm seeing this in human being terms, or at least I'm trying to. I'm not going to say that she's an individual who needs soft-soaping and I'm not going to say that she should be left off any hook she's on just because she's pregnant. I am going to say that this country claims to be humanitarian and a pillar of justice and fair play. That doesn't mean indulgence at all costs, and it doesn't mean that she shouldn't be tested under stern investigation. But we are not a lynch-mob country and we shouldn't ever let go of those principles that our justice system is founded on. Bottom line, she should come back and face the music. Who could possibly argue with that! But come back she should, if she wants to.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:53 AM

Amen again, Steve, amen a thousand times.

And thanks pfr, gotcha.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:57 AM

if a young person goes on holiday to, say Ibiza, and gets drunk and robbed of all his money:

Would we expect the British Consulate to help him (or her) to return?

One rule for all. The costs covered by just a loan.

The same legal system has an opinion on her antics abroad.

The irony is that she has rights under British law, but her baby probably has less.

The only get-out I see is that without a passport it is difficult (not impossible) to prove who she is.

We need to see how her parents pronounce, re the way she was radicalised and by who. They need to be more vocal, and active in ther community. And we need news media that can handle the story accurately. What are the odds on the latter?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:53 AM

Christ on a bloody bike. What kind of man are you?

Says the one whose party would give the vote to "children" If on the one hand you argue they are adult enough to vote,then the other hand dictates they are adult enough to take responsibility for their actions

I am obviously a realist! I am also very consistent in my views.
What are you?

For the record returning "terrorists" have already had their children taken away from them

From the wail, no less

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6713011/Jihadi-bride-let-Britain-dangerous-daughter-faces-no-terror-chargehttps://mudcat.org/blickifier.cfms.html
to do with Christ on a bike laddie. Are you suggesting she should pedal back to the UK?
nowt

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:57 AM

I agree wholeheartedly that this country has humanitarian and measured attitudes, and an impartial justice system which would guarantee a fair investigation and/or trial if necessary for Shamima. We don't flog or stone 'bad women' or implement the death penalty, lynch people or put them in Guantanamo-type 'facilities'.

I think she should be repatriated as soon as possible, but must be prepared to 'face the music'.

When I try to remember what I was like at the age of fifteen, I can't imagine what I'd have got up to if I'd been brought up as she had in the 21st Century, a daughter of immigrant muslim parents in E London. I might well have gone for the 'adventure' of idealistically 'serving my faith' and being the 'wife' of some hopefully attractive and romantic 'warrior'. The three girls probably egged each other on and found the whole thing tremendously exciting and 'worthy'.

The discussion on here has been very interesting and compassionate.
Let's hope it all turns out for the best for the young woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:59 AM

"Don't let him goad you, Jim. We're doing so well with him."
Beginning to feel like I'm part of an A.A. group
'Course I won't, but thanks for the thought

It's interesting to see how people are skirting around the fact that this young woman was a child when she went and was almost certainly groomed
To compare here to the actions of the Manchester Arena bomber is more than a little inhuman, to my mind
I wonder if these people would be happy if their own children had been sucked to say, a religious sect and hen refused the right to return home because they might infect those she comes into contact with
I see little difference
Terms like 'terrorist' and 'Jihadist' have now become meaningless catchall phrases covering everything from immigration to granting asylum to refugees from war, famine and poverty
The most human statement I have heard so far came from a women from a refugee organisation who suggested that before any decision was taken, the reason why this child became involved should be carefully examined
Makes more sense that the lynch-mob howlings we are getting from elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:09 AM

Lynch mob howlings????????????????????????????

A sensible conservative viewpoint.

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-risk-our-soldiers-lives-to-save-a-girl-whod-have-been-happy-to-see-their-heads-cut-off/

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM

Once again I must correct you - I certainly haven't suggested a 'rescue mission', nor have the majority of the other 'bleeding-heart liberals' (your description, certainly not mine) here.

The general consensus is that she should be allowed to return should she wish, and should she and/or her family have the means to secure it. A very different matter to a 'rescue mission'.

More Right-Wing Tory diversionary tactics methinks. Still, it makes a nice change from "Look over there - Corbyn, Antisemitism, Terrorist's Friend!" and the rest of the usual BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:54 AM

Steve. BWM. You were doing so well. Then you fell for it again :-( Now, just put it down to a moment of weakness and get back with the programme:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:04 AM

Every day in every way....
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:19 AM

Everyday in every way I’m getting better and better.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:36 AM

Ha! Post 100!
I think it has already been decided by the government that it would be wrong to put anyone at risk in such a dangerous place to got and fetch her. She must make her way home as best she can.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jos
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:42 AM

Maybe a post has been deleted, to make that 100 into a 99.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:52 AM

"The same legal system has an opinion on her antics abroad."

You see, you're falling for tabloidism. We don't know what she's been engaged in and you trivialise things by referring to her "antics." What little we do know, that she was "married" extremely quickly and that she has already lost two babies whilst living in rotten conditions, among other things, strongly suggests to me that she may have suffered serial abuse. Who knows. I don't and you don't, and referring to her experiences as "antics" is tendentious in the most Daily Mail-like fashion imaginable.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:00 AM

Don't know if anybody saw the film 'Argo'
Puts "the risks" of rescuing a pregnant teenager in the comic books where it belongs
Even if they bother there arse about her safety they will fight to have her banged up if she makes it home
This is a sick inhumane way to treat an obvious victim
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:07 AM

Telegraph:
Bethnal Green Jihadi bride Shamima Begum 'has given birth' her family announces

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:35 AM

Obvious victim? willing stooge, brainwashed idiot? Who cares!
Until proven otherwise her return poses a potential risk.
The perceived risk is of far more importance than how the risk arose.
When the risk is nullified then the whys and wherefores can be established.
Who in their right mind would authorize travel into a potential war zone to repatriate her.

Some here obviously do not understand the concepts of prioritization and risk assessment. She shows no apparent remorse, she lived and gave succour to a terrorist, thereby aiding and abetting him. How many innocent victims resulted from her actions, I wonder?
No matter how you look at it there is a degree of guilt and complicity in her actions. She could have run for cover years ago. That she did not makes a very clear statement of it's own.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:43 AM

I see it's a little boy.
Once she has recovered from the birth, her parents/family could maybe go over and fetch her home. They've offered to take in her baby and raise it if she has to go to prison, as it couldn't be guaranteed she wouldn't face justice.

What crimes has she actually committed? (serious question)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:10 AM

What crimes has she actually committed? (serious question)

That would be dependent on the view of the government whenever she returns. To let her off scot free would encourage others. To make an example would make her a martyr and possibly invite retaliation.
I am glad it is not a question I have to answer. There is also the extensive "debriefing" required to establish what, if any, threat she poses.

As far as getting her back is concerned that could present problems.
Syria is still effectively partitioned and I have no idea how fluid those boundaries are. Having a river separating the government forces from the Kurds and Coalition? makes for a nice boundary on a map, but it covers many kilometres so how hard is it? She escaped from the last isis stronghold SE of Palmyra near the Iraq border to a camp in the NE,not too far from the Turkish border, in an area under Kurdish control. The map showing the men in black is somewhat out of date and their territory has shrunk.
But there are numerous caves they can disperse to in government controlled areas. They still pose a threat.
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2015/05/syria-country-divided-150529144229467.html

https://www.businessinsider.com/syrian-secret-cave-hideouts-2015-3?r=US&IR=T

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:24 AM

No now the family of a victim of Isis grooming is responsible for bringing her grandchild home home
Makes you wonder why we have British Embassy or United Nations

All this would be laughable if Britain hadn't helped start this war and give Isis a gap to fill in the first place
HIS DESERVES A READ
AND THIS
THIS TOO

The West's dirty hands are becoming even dirtier with incidents like this
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM

Frankly she's not worth wasting time over, little more than a raghead's whore.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:12 AM

Note to any mod seeing this thread. Disgusting racist comments such as Bonzos have no place here.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:31 AM

Wonder if they'll delete it and throw of the poster !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:04 AM

I am deeply saddened, but not surprised, by the lack of humanity in some posters on here.

Shamima Begum was a 15 year old girls when she went to Syria, just 15.

When I was 15 I had all sorts of wonderful visions of how I could change the world for the better. Time and age has robbed me of them but I could still dream of a better world.

Now her vision of a better world and mine are at complete odds with each other. However as a nation I consider we have an obligation to ensure she is safely returned to her native shore and hope, given time and education, she may prove to be a valuable resource to combat the indoctrination of organisations such as IS.

I am thankful it was not my daughter or son.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:22 AM

What crimes she has actually committed, if any, will be decided by a judge and jury after due process, not by the government. Once she returns to this country it's a rock-solid cert that she will be incarcerated until she has been thoroughly interrogated. Then she will be released only if she is not considered to be a threat and if she is not charged with terrorist offences. So I'd like to know what kind of "threat" some rather woolly-minded people think she poses merely by coming back. We've just seen one egregious outburst of Islamophobia in this thread. Seems to me that there are some other more subtle and more veiled examples here too.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:46 AM

Bonz in his usual lefty liberal baiting wind up mode
does serve to remind us
of baser ideas that are representative of a dominant majority of British public opinion...

Our bonz might actually be cute and cuddly compared to the far more fanatical exteme right thugs
who have invaded and conquered youtube
to monopolise it as their own propaganda platform......

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM

I'll drink tho that Rag
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:05 AM

Bonzo, we've had some lovely conversations about your dog Dreamy. But that comment is deeply insulting.

I personally am proud to be a 'raghead's whore', having been married to a lovely Muslim man for many years.

Please have a think about what you've posted. It's completely unacceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:08 AM

What crimes she has actually committed, if any, will be decided by a judge and jury after due process, not by the government

Due process is by the government or does a fluffy bunny carry out the interrogation and decide if there are grounds for prosecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:30 AM

The Crown Prosecution Service is a body independent of the government. They decided how to proceed once police investigation has taken place. Here's a big chunk from their website.

The decision to charge

Role of the Crown Prosecution Service
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) is the independent public authority responsible for prosecuting people in England and Wales who have been charged by the police with a criminal offence.

In undertaking this role we:

Advise the police on cases for possible prosecution
Review cases submitted by the police for prosecution in accordance with the principles in The Code for Crown Prosecutors
Consider the alternatives to prosecution in appropriate circumstances
Where the decision is to prosecute, determine the charge in all but minor cases
Prepare cases for court
Present those cases at court.
Once the police have completed their investigations, they will refer the case to us for advice on how to proceed in all but the most minor and routine cases. We will then make a decision on whether a suspect should be charged, and what that charge should be.

The Crown Prosecution Service does not act for victims or the families of victims in the same way as solicitors act for their clients. We act on behalf of the public and not just in the interests of any particular individual.

Our prosecutor will read the file and consider the two tests laid down in The Code for Crown Prosecutors, which sets out the basic principles that crown prosecutors must follow when making prosecution decisions. These tests must be applied in every case.

The evidential test
The prosecutor must first decide whether or not there is enough evidence against the defendant for a realistic prospect of conviction.

This means that the magistrates or jury are more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge. If there is not a realistic prospect of conviction, the case must not go ahead, no matter how important or serious it may be.

It is the duty of every Crown Prosecutor to make sure that the right person is prosecuted for the right offence. In doing so, Crown Prosecutors must always act in the interests of justice and not only for the purpose of obtaining a conviction.

The public interest test
If the crown prosecutor decides that there is a realistic prospect of conviction they must then consider whether it is in the public interest to prosecute the defendant. While the public interest will vary from case to case, broadly speaking the more serious an alleged offence the more likely it will be that a prosecution is needed in the public interest.

A prosecution is less likely to be needed if, for example, a court would be likely to fix a minimal or token penalty, or the loss or harm connected with the offence was minor and the result of a single incident.

The interests of the victim are an important factor when considering the public interest. Crown Prosecutors will always take into account the consequences for the victim and any views expressed by the victim or victims' family.

Deciding not to prosecute
If the crown prosecutor decides that a prosecution should not go ahead, the case will be stopped, usually by what is called 'discontinuance'. Unless there are special circumstances which mean that it is not appropriate to do so, you will be told the reasons for the decision to stop the case.

Often the hardest decision can be to conclude that there isn't enough of a case to go to court, even where the public favour a prosecution.

The decisions made by the CPS are based on publicly available, clear and visible legal guidance.

That all gives a pretty good starting point as to what we mean by due process of the law. Note that there is no reference to the government in any of it. Other aspects such as the rules for arrest and being held in custody and the right to representation, and the conduct of court hearings, are equally independent of government.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:31 AM

They decide. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM

Senoufou - Raghead is just British Army slang for nasty jihadists and daish types only, not decent folk, so no offence intended at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:32 AM

I see Bonzo. In that case I apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:45 AM

You have nothing to apologise for, Sen. Our racist Tory shit-for-brains Bonzo, on the other hand, adds shameless obfuscation to disgusting insult...

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/raghead

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:50 AM

"Raghead is just British Army slang for nasty jihadists and daish types only, not decent folk, s"
Raghead is a term of abuse aimed at Arabs in general both ib Britain and America, by racist scum
Whore is an abusive term aimed at women who sell their bodies
To describe a pregnant teenager as a "raghead's whore" is beneath contempt, no apology needed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:57 AM

English: raghead
raghead in British
('ræg?h?d)
noun
especially US
an offensive term for a person who wears a turban, keffiyeh, etc
Collins English Dictionary. Harper Collins Publishers

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:17 PM

If you believe the Crown Prosecution Service is not leant on by the government and security agencies on cases that have a significant "political" bent then I am afraid you are away with the faeries.

Now the link below you can take at face value or you can probe a little deeper and come up with an entirely different agenda.
https://www.mi5.gov.uk/news/intelligence-security-and-the-law

Let us take a couple of examples.
Tommy Robinson was arrested for contempt of court, hauled before a judge, sentenced and incarcerated in the space of an unprecedented 5 hours. Do you seriously believe it all happened "just like that"?
Tommy Cooper's magic or government complicity?
or
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/14/mi6-licence-to-kill-and-torture

The real world is a dirty place at times, luckily most of the time we are shielded from the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:19 PM

Nothing changes here I can see from the usual suspects

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:55 PM

An interesting caveat from Wiki concerning the Crown Prosecution Service:
The Attorney General for England and Wales superintends the CPS's work and answers for it in Parliament, although the Attorney has no influence over the conduct of prosecutions, except when national security is an issue or for a small number of offences that require the Attorney General's permission to prosecute.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:58 PM

There are a calculated 800 'Jihadists' due to return from Syria - wonder where they will find all those roes and trees !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:09 PM

Despite a long cut'n'paste about the CPS it should be noted that they deal with 'Criminal Prosecutions' under English law.
As anything this young woman has done which might be against the interests of this country was very likely done elsewhere I somehow doubt that the CPS will have any say in the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM

Doesn't take much to draw out the twists and turns of the conspiracy theorists, does it?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:31 PM

"Despite a long cut'n'paste about the CPS..."

Fancy a nitpick, by the way, Nigel? It was BY the CPS, not ABOUT the CPS. From the horse's mouth. Much better than a wiki "about," eh, Nige?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:31 PM

So.. seeing as we are all realists...

What's the betting certain newspapers are mulling over the pros and cons of bidding for her story
and funding a 'specialist team' to bring her and the baby back 'home'...

..Then there'll be the even more lucrative book and movie deals...???

..and a lifestyle of notorious celebrity.. maybe a reality TV series as well...

Though she'd have an unfair advantage if signed up for "Im a celebrity, get me out of here"...

Can she sing and dance...???

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM

"What's the betting certain newspapers are mulling over the pros and cons of bidding for her story"
Might be her only way of getting home
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:42 PM

Raghead is a deeply offensive term, and is meant to be so. So is whore. Don't pretend otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM

Six Syrian military personnel are in line to be arrested and tried on torture charges
Confusin' innit ?
A good rule of thumb in anything like this is to use Trumps statements as a direction not to go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:50 PM

No now the family of a victim of Isis grooming is responsible for bringing her grandchild home home
Makes you wonder why we have British Embassy or United Nations?

We do not and they do not have a diplomatic presence in Syria!
In February 2012 all diplomatic staff were withdrawn from the British Embassy in Damascus and its services were suspended. There is now no ambassador.
On 25 July 2012 Under-Secretary-General for Peacekeeping Operations Hervé Ladsous announced that about half of the military observers have been sent back to their countries.On August 16, France's UN Ambassador Gerard Araud, the current Security Council president, said the conditions to extend the mission in Syria beyond August 20, among which a significant reduction of violence, were not met and the mission would end.
Aid missions have continued.
More than 13 million people inside Syria require humanitarian assistance, including nearly 6 million children.
At the end of 2017, more than half the country’s hospitals, clinics and primary health care centres were only partially functioning or had been damaged beyond repair.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:52 PM

If you google "CPS terrorism" or "CPS jihadi" you'll find that the CPS is heavily involved in cases involving terrorist-related matters. In fact, they have a special division, the Special Crime and Counter Terrorism Division, headed by one Jenny Hopkins. Whilst it's certain that the Home Office and Foreign Office liaise closely with the CPS, any dark murmurings and knowing winks about leaning-ons, etc, by the government had better be supported by some solid evidence in m'humble. In due process in this country, the duel tenets of evidence and public interest must be maintained, and seen to be maintained, whether in terrorism-related matters or in anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:03 PM

Fancy a nitpick, by the way, Nigel? It was BY the CPS, not ABOUT the CPS. From the horse's mouth. Much better than a wiki "about," eh, Nige?

No, the cut'n'paste was by yourself.
The content may have been from the CPS, but without a link (which would have made a full cut'n'paste unnecessary) I will refer to how the post appears, as a cut'n'paste about the CPS.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM

Heheh.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:09 PM

If you google "CPS terrorism" or "CPS jihadi" you'll find that the CPS is heavily involved in cases involving terrorist-related matters. In fact, they have a special division, the Special Crime and Counter Terrorism Division, headed by one Jenny Hopkins. Whilst it's certain that the Home Office and Foreign Office liaise closely with the CPS, any dark murmurings and knowing winks about leaning-ons, etc, by the government had better be supported by some solid evidence in m'humble. In due process in this country, the duel tenets of evidence and public interest must be maintained, and seen to be maintained, whether in terrorism-related matters or in anything else.

If that was a response to my comment about this case being outside the general scope of the CPS you will find that most (if not all) of the links which can be found from your suggested searches relate to online, or physical, actions taken in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:24 PM

Well we are hardly going to be prosecuting our citizens while they're abroad, are we? What are you on about?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:31 PM

As you obviously didn't read/understand my earlier comment about the role of the CPS I will repeat it:

Despite a long cut'n'paste about the CPS it should be noted that they deal with 'Criminal Prosecutions' under English law.
As anything this young woman has done which might be against the interests of this country was very likely done elsewhere I somehow doubt that the CPS will have any say in the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:48 PM

To no-one in particular
????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM

let her in and keep her under constant surveillance

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:00 PM

A Sky News poll asking if Shamima Begum should be allowed to return to the UK found that 76% think she should not, 16% believe she should and 8% did not know.

76% do not want her back.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:32 PM

Some questions you could ask people before they opine as to permitting her return or not:

Do you know where she comes from? Locality, background, family?

Do you know her nationality?

Do you know her religion and whether she is religious?

Do you know where she went?

Do you know why she went?

Do you know what was going on in the place she went to?

Do you know who she joined?

Do you know anything about what she's been doing there?

Do you know how long she's been there and what's been happening to her there?

Do you know where she is now?

What do you think of Muslims?

To the members of this forum: Is it right to ask the question of people who are likely to be mostly uninformed at best and prejudiced at worst, and, if so, should we not ignore the response? Or do we choose to live by the confirmation bias we seek out?

I remember one survey taken around the time we were abolishing capital punishment. 84% of the people surveyed wanted to keep it. Well who'd have thought it. Another more recent survey in the US found that almost half of the people surveyed didn't believe in evolution. Outstandingly, 38% of the UK voting population voted to take themselves and another fifty million besides (three times as many as themselves) out of the EU. Looking at surveys of the mainly-uninformed and making decisions on the result is a dangerous game. As the UK is about to find out, big time. And I don't know what question Sky News asked, but forgive me for deciding to ignore the result of their survey.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:47 PM

And Amen once more, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:47 PM

A far more important question would be:
If Isis were still holding territory would Shamima Begum still be asking for repatriation?
Now she has given birth in Syria, what nationality is the child?

And I don't know what question Sky News asked, but forgive me for deciding to ignore the result of their survey.
Another inconvenient truth mayhap?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:04 PM

Fortunately the UK is not governed on the basis of small-sample popular polls run by news channels seeking to maximise their readership/viewership. We have elected representatives in parliament, and government agencies whose responsibility it is to take difficult decisions on everyone's behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM

so that is why we had a referendum?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:19 PM

And look what a fucked-up disaster that's brought us to the brink of. A perfect example of the stupidity af asking an ill-informed public to decide on issues that are the responsibility of parliament and the government to make judgment on.

And it was a referendum, run by the government - not a small-sample popular poll run by a news agency with an agenda. Don't insult your own intelligence by pretending not to understand the difference.

But again, referendums in the U.K. are very much the exception rather than the rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:22 PM

....Thank goodness.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:12 PM

best to have someone who could be dangerous close and undersurveillance

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:25 PM

That's it in a nutshell, Dick. As LBJ said about the supertwat J Edgar Hoover, better to have him in the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. But, in her case, d'you think we could also add just a small tinge of common humanity to the mix? A bit, dare I say, of that bloody Christian stuff? Long term, wouldn't that serve us well, as well as the young woman and her child?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:13 PM

The baby of course, like the mother, is British citizen.

Of course what would be most convenient for the government would be if Shamila were to die out in the camp. No doubt they'd then express regrets at this tragic outcome.

I see Trump is saying the the UK and other governments whose nationals went to join Isis oought to bring them all back home and prosecute them for any wrongdoing. For once Ifind myself in agreement with the man.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:36 PM

Odd, I was thinking the same thing meself. His strategy is good, but I would hate to think that I'd agree with his underlying sentiments, whatever they are. Who knows. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:40 PM

So let's see. We think we can contain any "threat" that this nineteen-year-old could pose should she return. She's a Brit, so we should be letting her come home. She must expect to face the full rigour of our justice system, both in terms of security and of natural justice. As a civilised country, we don't allow our citizens to be thrown to the wolves, though we agree that they must face the sternest scrutiny, once home. There is no bye, no free pass.

Reasonable people would agree with all that. You may not agree that she should be brought home, rather than that she should be forced to make her own way home unsupported. Actually, that makes you an inhumane idiot. Of course it would cost us, you brainless gits bray about. But you self-same brainless gits never protest at the hundred billion that armies of accountants relieve billionaires of in terms of tax liabilities every year. That's all hunkydory with you Tory bigots, yet you'd deny the three or four grand it would cost to get this young woman and her baby home. So I'd like to set you a challenge, or a question, see it as you will:

You're an Islamophobe, aren't you? No reason you've so far given for not allowing her home, or paying to get her home, has exonerated you so far from that accusation. So give me your reasons, please. And tell me where you left your humanity behind while you're at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:05 AM

You may not agree that she should be brought home, rather than that she should be forced to make her own way home unsupported. Actually, that makes you an inhumane idiot. Of course it would cost us, you brainless gits bray about. But you self-same brainless gits never protest at the hundred billion that armies of accountants relieve billionaires of in terms of tax liabilities every year. That's all hunkydory with you Tory bigots, yet you'd deny the three or four grand it would cost to get this young woman and her baby home. So I'd like to set you a challenge, or a question, see it as you will:

I assume you are volunteering to go out and extricate her from what is still a war zone or are you happy to risk British lives so long as your own is not one of them?
The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) advise against all travel to Syria. British nationals in Syria should leave by any practical means. Consular support is not available in Syria. The UK has suspended all services of the British Embassy in Damascus and all diplomatic and consular staff have been withdrawn from Syria. British nationals requiring assistance should make their way to a neighbouring country where the UK has a consular presence.

The situation remains extremely volatile and dangerous. High levels of violence persist throughout Syria, including full scale military operations involving the use of small arms, tanks, artillery and aircraft. A number of chemical weapons attacks have taken place across Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:21 AM

This is not unlike the inhuman attitude that the survivors of the Grenfell Tower disaster be left to fend for themselves rather than allow them the use of vacant and usable property on a temporary basis
It's about time the people who support leaving this young woman and her newborn child out in a war zone that is quite likely to shortly turn into a killing field for Assad and his thugs, remember who we are discussing - a young woman who went out as a child and a newborn baby
That large sections of the British population can be claimed to support leaving her there shames the British people and what they have become - pretty well in line with leaving refugees and asylum seekers and their children to drown rather than allow them to land - I can never remember my country sinking as low as this in my lifetime
We should hang our heads in shame rather than display these disgusting figures as evidence that this young woman should be left to die - what kind of people would even consider it ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:30 AM

Amen, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:47 AM

Well Mr Shaw what is your proposed method of extraction for the young lady and her child?

It is also worth pointing out that under Syrian Law nationality is determined solely by the father's nationality, while the place of birth is irrelevant. In other words, birthright citizenship is not recognized since being born in Syria does not grant an automatic right to become a national. Under Syrian Law the infant is recognised as Dutch by virtue of her Dutch jihadist husband Yago Riedij.
If the child's rights are paramount, perhaps the Dutch government should take the problem away and solve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

The refugee camp is several hours away from the last-ditch fighting and is heavily guarded. Conditions in the camp are next to intolerable, with factions forming among the refugees leading to bullying and beatings up. We don't know what this young woman has done but so far she has not been tried for any offence, and she and her child are in harm's way. She is a citizen of our supposedly civilised country and it is an outrage that she can't come home. We should be flexing every muscle to get her back and I simply won't accept that it isn't possible. I suppose that with confounded bigoted thickheads such as Javid at the helm there's no political will to get her back, so we'll keep hearing the cod excuses as to how getting her home would be "too dangerous" and that having her here "would pose too much of a risk." Bullshit. Islamophobic bullshit too, and we're hearing it in this thread as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:38 AM

It is apparent some live all their lives in fluffy bunny land.
Funny, I spent several months in a well guarded camp. Ditches, walls, razor wire, watchtowers, the whole nine yards. We still had bunkers within sprinting distance. Even a mortar hops over defenses no prob.
Shaw restrict yourself to commenting on things of which you have a slight knowledge, you are an embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM

yes a little christian or himanitarian consideration would be good

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:48 AM

Jim and Steve (and others) are right. There seems to be an extraordinary lack of compassion and human sympathy for refugees, Grenfell Tower casualties and this young woman.

Maybe people nowadays are swept along in a tide of Islamophobia, xenophobia and downright callousness. The mob bigotry and racism carry all the ignorant people towards a state of complete intolerance and hatred.
I agree that our country didn't used to be like this. So sad.

I saw on the News just last night some footage of one of these 'camps' in Syria. The children's faces said it all. Pinched, hungry, afraid and obviously suffering. The women looked desperate.
I can't imagine what it must be like to have just given birth, to be weak and ill-fed, having already experienced terrible trauma and seen evil things.
I can only hope and pray that somehow Shamima can be fetched home and helped.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

It's grand to see that most of us here share those humanitarian instincts. Sad that a couple of people refuse to join us.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:25 AM

My husband utterly despises IS, radicalised fundamentalists, jihadis, terrorists and all they stand for. He knows far more about Islam than I do, and tells me their ideology is far from true Islamic thought and religion.
Yet even he feels terribly sorry for this woman and thinks she should be brought back to UK and given medical/psychological help, while her baby is medically examined and cared for, but not separated from its mother.
He says the Law will sort it out and she will get true justice. He doesn't think she presents a risk to us.

My only worry is that ordinary, law-abiding Muslims here in UK (such as my gentle husband) will be subject to Islamophobia, racism and unfair exclusion and prejudice.

Any human being is a fellow human being. And there is quite a lot of power in compassion and tolerance. They can defuse fraught situations and disarm evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

"Maybe people nowadays are swept along in a tide of Islamophobia, xenophobia and downright callousness"
You have that spot on Sen - and some of our more unsavoury politicians who may or may not hold the views you mention are busy using human suffering as way up the greasy pole
Islamophobia and all forms of widespread bigotry are, I believe, often based on genuine fears and the victims are both the bigots and the targets of their bigotry
Personally, I believe we are very lucky to have a perfect representative of everything that has gone wrong with British society, so let's cherish his presence (doesn't mean we have to respond to it - he manages to speak for us, sometimes more eloquently that we do ourselves)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM

Had western powers not plotted and carried out regime change in the Middle East ir is unlikely organisations such as Daesh and Isis would have arisen. Warfare creates casualties and devastation. If governments make a hash of omelettes there is a residue of broken eggs. Embargoes, sanctions bombs,deliberate destruction of critical infrastructure,lack of food and critical medical supplies has killed and displaced millions over the Middle East. Attention would be better focused on people such as Blair who deliberately lied to take us to war in Iraq, and all the other politicians that caused us to wage illegal wars in the Middle East. None of these wars were fought for humanitarian reasons,they were fought for economic gain. To concentrate on one "victim" and her Dutch child shows a shocking disregard for the truth and the millions of INNOCENT victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:40 AM

Senoufou, the hatred shown on this thread has come exclusively from your political "bedfellows"

The more tolerant, compassionate and caring views have come exclusively from people who are not your political "bedfellows"

Hmmmmmmmmmm .......... something for you to contemplate.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 07:45 AM

"the hatred shown on this thread has come exclusively from your political "bedfellows" "
I think that the present gloating at another's possible misfortune following Brexit going on on another thread pretty well sums up the humanity of the opposition   
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 08:00 AM

It would be a particularly callous person that did not have some degree of sympathy for the 'Jihadi Bride'. However you do not travel deliberately to a war zone without a degree of self involvement. The amount of her culpability is in question. Millions of other victims have zero culpability.
Focus would be better placed with the innocents!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 08:54 AM

Did she ask the journalist to tell her story, or did they find her?
Did she say "I'm not sorry" or did they ask the question and expand her answer. Same re atrocities.
The story will have been edited to give whatever impression the paper wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 10:08 AM

As I posted yesterday - the realist way she can come back is if a cynical newspaper
can profit from sending out a rescue squad of private security 'mercs'
in exchange for rights to her story...

Probably the only other way to secure the services of such a trained 'specialist team'
would be for family and supporters setting up a crowdfunding appeal,
and begging the money...???

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM

Popular opinion, guided by the press, maybe one aspect, Mo but in another sense, I’m not sure that what she is reported as saying matters that much. One could say they now saw that they had got into something bad and be lying. One that side alone, I’d view a person expressing either outlook as being a potential threat.

For a more compassionate view, I do believe in second chances, perhaps increasingly so as I get older (I think there was a time I’d say “lock em up and throw away the key” for some things without further thought). I could also speculate as to how many may have wound up in bad places had they lived in different circumstances. I do feel a combination of some disillusionment or sense of injustice and someone manipulative enough to work on a weakness and sell a “glorious cause” could be very effective, particularly with teenagers.

I suppose that leaves me in the camp that would support her coming back to the UK but one that would involve close scrutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 10:43 AM

I think that the present gloating at another's possible misfortune following Brexit going on on another thread pretty well sums up the humanity of the opposition

Have you got your threads mixed up as well as your ideas? I find your comments insulting!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 11:02 AM

The Family Division of the High Court had presided over cases involving at least 150 children deemed at risk of radicalisation in the last five years.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10671841/The-children-taught-at-home-about-murder-and-bombings.html

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 11:30 AM

"I find your comments insulting!"
Interesting someone should identify themself with an undirected comment

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 12:19 PM

Interesting you have not the wherewithal to make the direct accusation.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 03:52 PM

The young lady seems to be doing all she can to destroy her cause.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1089038/shamima-begum-interview-quotes-shocking-islamic-state-ISIS-beheading

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 04:02 AM

She does comes across as very hard, cold and arrogant in that interview. But I think she's being very, very careful not to aggravate the other jihadis around her. After all, she's still in Syria and could be attacked for expressing anti-Isis views.

She's obviously been indoctrinated, manipulated and radicalised most thoroughly.

She makes me think of a cornered animal, wary, defiant and 'tough' but in reality trembling with fear and desperately looking for a way of escape.
By showing her care, kindness and reassurance, (while of course going through the due processes of Law in UK) she will have more chance of seeing that 'our' side of things is less barbaric, murderous and wicked than 'hers'.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM

What she says to journalists after stories in a context which we recipients can't possibly understand is utterly irrelevant when it comes to the case for getting her home. What she says in front of a judge once she's home would be a different matter. The people who are clinging to any little adverse comment by a nineteen-year-old runaway in order to strengthen (as they see it) their case for leaving her to the wolves are inhuman charlatans. We have a couple of them polluting this forum, unfortunately. The kind of people who'd have been out there in gangs hanging untried people from bridges a hundred years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:02 AM

I quite often meet adolescents who are "Cold, hard and arrogant"
It's the adults who display those qualitis who worry me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:01 AM

The sad thing about all this is that around 850 young people left Britain to fight Assad - we ain't seen nuffin' yet
Perhaps they need to think in terms of setting up a refugee camp for themselves somewhere
AND SHOULD WE HAVE A REGIME CHANGE IN BRITAIN....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 11:34 AM

https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/boris-johnson-s-position-syria-problem-uk
But why link to an article from 2016, The world has moved on since then and the geopolitics in Syria have also changed dramatically.
You merely demonstrate your abject ignorance of the country that you pontificate on whereas I know the terrain of the areas under discussion first hand and have some knowledge of the practicalities of extricating the young lady.

You also appear to revel in the fact that 850 jihadis left Britain to fight.What does ain't seen nuffin yet supposed to signify. Hiding in your bog it is unlikely you will see anything but your attitude seemingly applauds the fact they will return and potentially unleash mayhem.
You are one sad sicko!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 01:10 PM

I've just read Piers Morgan's (not exactly my favourite TV personality) vituperative rant about this. He advises her to go f*** herself and wishes she would rot in hell.
Charming.
I respect his opinion (as I'd respect anyone's opinion) but why do people express themselves in this unrestrained fashion?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 02:35 PM

It would seem the UK government are to revoke Shamima Begun's nationality.

Doesn't it just make you proud to be British ............ not.

What the hell has this country become. The likes of some of the callous bigots on this site seem to have won the day.

At the expense of a young person who is barely old enough to be called an adult.

I am appalled and upset by this decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 02:41 PM

I should have also said that I am ashamed to what this country has become.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 02:48 PM

Very sad day. That's that I suppose, case closed.

There are questions as to whether she might be able to adopt Bangladeshi nationality, as both her parents have Bangladeshi passports.
I do worry about her little baby boy - what's to become of him in all this?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 02:49 PM

Oh PS it is citizenship she is being denied not nationality.

I post this so the pedantics and nitpickers can't put me up on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM

That's true Raggytash. My husband is said to have 'dual nationality' with two passports, Ivorian and UK. But it was 'UK Citizenship' he was granted, not nationality.
It's very confusing isn't it?
I think this may be the first time someone has been rendered stateless by this procedure. And there is a possibility of Appeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 03:30 PM

Under Syrian Law it is quite clear. The child is Dutch by virtue of taking his fathers nationality.
Senoufou I cannot see how Piers Morgan adds anything useful to the discussion of the problem, it is merely a rather nasty unthinking soundbite. But it is a real problem. Extremism in certain mosques was ignored by the authorities and government negligence aided and abetted the problem. I can accept brainwashed as being an outcome,but words like grooming betray an ignorance of the meaning of the word, that has strictly sexual connotations. To what extent they were the young innocents led astray as beloved by the majority of those here attempting the moral high ground is a total unknown at this stage. I have severe doubts about such an explanation but that is an irrelevance at this stage. She and others went to a warzone on the side of enemies we were fighting.
Britain had no role during the Spanish civil war but the release of recent records show what a close eye British intelligence kept on the potential volunteers at the ports, and how unwilling they were to prevent their departure. The British government was loth to use the 1870 Foreign Enlistment Act, fearing that if a case came to court it could not secure a conviction, and would face political embarrassment.
the returning British veterans received a tumultuous reception from friends, families and supporters, they faced grave suspicion from many within the government and security services who suspected that the veterans had been ‘imbued with revolutionary sentiments’.

Although it was recognised that there was little chance of successfully prosecuting any volunteers under the archaic Foreign Enlistment Act, many veterans found their attempts to volunteer for the armed forces in the Second World War blocked, or encountered discrimination in their workplaces for many years to come.

A similar treatment was handed out to Irish Nationals who fought for the allies in WW2

In both these cases the combatants were not fighting their own country,unlike the present crop of jihadists.
The closest equivalent would be the British Free corps commanded by Waffen SS officers. Most of the members were handed
custodial sentences.
Some suggest the treason laws should be updated.
It is hardly inhuman to insist that those that might be judged to have put society at risk should be punished. To advocate any other course of action would be stupidity

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 03:38 PM

Nobody has suggested that IF she has put our society at risk she should go unpunished.

No-one, not one person.

Once again deflection is your modus operendi.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 03:44 PM

I agree Iains that fundamentalist preaching in some radical mosques was ignored by the authorities for a long time. I suspect this was because they were trying to avoid causing an uproar among Muslim communities and ending up with rioting and civil unrest.

But while I support tolerance, there are limits to what can actually be tolerated. Pussyfooting around dodgy hate preachers is not the best way forward.

It's now regulated more stringently, but it went on for too long unchecked.

I've had to speak a bit sharply to that 'fundmentalist' couple of Muslims we keep seeing in Tesco. They wouldn't stop demanding that I change my religion, should wear a hijab and repeating that I wasn't really married to my husband.

Eventually my usual easy-going, polite and laissez-faire attitude snapped, and I pointed out that they were lucky to live in UK where we accept all religions and races, and I insisted they show me the same tolerance. My husband said a lot more (ie they were actually committing a crime!) and they stalked off.
They keep out of our way now... :)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 05:42 PM

Nobody has suggested that IF she has put our society at risk she should go unpunished.

No-one, not one person.

Once again deflection is your modus operendi.

wot's this then:

Young people, possibly this young woman, became =involved, not out of religious fervour bu to fill the gap the West left when they allowed Assad to do what he is still doing
It little behooved them to punish one of his possible victims

and you label me the idiot?
From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:26 PM
Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:01 PM

It might help if you included the posters name.

I am not inclined to trace back through 195 post to verify it for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:41 PM

Really not worth it, Raggytash.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:40 AM

Here you are raggedy tash;
Let me refresh your memory.
Your rather sour response response to my joking aside:

Cars are not green. You should walk.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:26 PM

Well. lets see.

The nearest "city" to where I live in 40 miles.

Now in my youth I may have been able to walk that in 10/11 hours.

Now I fear it may take me a week.

Idiot.


There you are laddie! In all it's pathetic glory. Now can we move on?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:50 AM

Interesting that those that protest the decision to strip the young lady's British citizenship are also largely the same people that would deny people a referendum on the basis that out duly elected leaders know better than we lesser mortals. Unless of course the government makes a decision they disagree with.

As the government know all the facts and are superior to us they obviously made a judgement that we should be protected from her.
More importantly it will send a very strong message to others tempted to follow the same road to perdition.

Unfortunate for her-A win win for us. Treachery should never be rewarded.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:55 AM

I'm surprised that corbyn hasn't voiced his pro-terrorist opinion!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:56 AM

Back to ranting personal abuse I see
Somebody must have struck a sensitive nerve somewhere
Pity the Mods have decided to underwrite it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

What the hell has this country become. The likes of some of the callous bigots on this site seem to have won the day.

At the expense of a young person who is barely old enough to be called an adult.

18 is the usual age for conscription in the UK and US. I cannot recall any general feeling that children were being sent to war at age eighteen.

Yet another circle to be squared? or simply inconsistency?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:29 AM

That post makes no sense. The first and second lines appear to be contradicted by the third and fourth.

Is someone losing it?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:34 AM

The only reason for the return to ranting and personal abuse is that people have started responding to him again. Don't say I didn't warn you!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:41 AM

Backwoodsman:
The post appears to make no sense because it doesn't make clear that the first two lines are a direct quote from Raggytash as 2:35pm yesterday.
Read in that light it makes perfect sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:45 AM

Dave the only ranting and abuse is coming from your own miserable cabal and you with your usual sly, devious modus operandi encourage it. Hardly surprising new faces are rare below the line. Would you like a complete list of the thinly disguised insults sent my way in the last week?

You and your vicious little packmates do more to damage and cancel threads than the rest of the mudcat membership put together. You can deny for all you want but the evidence is clear for all to see.
Do you all suffer from the same character deficiency or are you simply
nasty people?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 05:21 AM

See what I mean? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 05:33 AM

Idiot seems to fit the bill rather well.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 06:00 AM

Very different, but I can't help seeing parallels between this young woman's experiences and what happened to my Dad in the thirties
When or family heard stories from Jewish neigbours abou what was happening in Germany, they took to the streets to stop The Blackshirts marching - my grandmother was arrested for throwing a stone which hit Mosley
My father and his mates, worried at the apparent appeasement to the Nazis, volunteered to fight in Spain, was wounded and captured and spent a year in one of Franco's prisons, where he was subjected to the mental torture of irregular 'mock executions'
When he finally returned home he found himself excommunicated from his religion and blacklisted by MI5 as what later came to be known as "a premature anti-facist"
He was forced to leave home and work a a navvy and wasn't able to return permanently until nearly twenty years later.I have no idea what promoted this then child to join, but the parallels of appeasing a murderous tyrannical regime are pretty obvious, to me at least
Do describe a child/woman who went out to fight Assad as "a traitor" is as sick as it gets
That she was almost certainly groomed, a were many, makes her as much a victim as any
If the West had stood up to Assad's crimes in the first place this configuration need never have happened and Isis would have remained the insignificant bunch of cranks they were
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 06:10 AM

A perfect demonstration of what I have been saying. As a stickler for accuracy I feel I should point out that 'Idiot' in the above context requires an 'S' on the end indicating a plurality.

Bangledeshi Citizenship
A significant reform with regard to citizenship by descent was brought about in 2009. Section 5 of the 1951 Act,as amended, accords citizenship to children born outside Bangladesh to either a Bangladeshi father or mother.
A commendable aspect of the Bangladeshi citizenship law has been that it does not provide for arbitrary deprivation of citizenship.11Moreover, there are no differentiated citizenship rights for citizens by birth and naturalised or other types of citizens.

jihadi bride Shamima Begum faces ban from Britain as ... Her parents are from Bangladesh.

http://cadmus.eui.eu/bitstream/handle/1814/44545/EudoCit_2016_14Bangladesh.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 06:47 AM

Do describe a child/woman who went out to fight Assad as "a traitor" is as sick as it gets
That she was almost certainly groomed, a were many, makes her as much a victim as any.

She went to join Isis.
She has British Nationality
We are at war with ISIS
Therefore She is a traitor.

No amount of squealing from leftards can alter that unassailable fact.

Grooming NSPCC definition:

Grooming is when someone builds an emotional connection with a child to gain their trust for the purposes of sexual abuse, sexual exploitation or trafficking.

Do you mean radicalisation? That makes her a potential risk not a young naive innocent. It helps to use the right words, but that would highlight the stupidity of your argument.

Your endless posturing about your family involvement in the Spanish civil war means nothing to me. Mine were both in the London Scottish as territorials prior to both world wars. So What!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 07:34 AM

"Backwoodsman:
The post appears to make no sense because it doesn't make clear that the first two lines are a direct quote from Raggytash as 2:35pm yesterday.
Read in that light it makes perfect sense."

Yes Nigel, I was fully aware of that , I was making a point - a point which, judging by his subsequent posts, went straight over his head.

Fortunately, I'm sufficiently well-educated to understand the importance of making it clear when one is quoting, and how simple it is to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 08:36 AM

Oh Dear. Another with nothing sensible to add to the discussion, so resorting to crticism of modes of data presentation. Perhaps the wind has gone out of their sails as their representatives, who know better than them, have made a decision they do not like. Does this mean we have to put their perpetusl whinging like Democrats who lost the US election. Perhaps they would like to blame the radicalisation of Shamima Begum on the Russians, instead of closely inspecting the syllabus of Bethnal Green Academy in London that all three isis brides attended, and also the mosques they attended?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 09:03 AM

You have lost the plot Iains.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 10:15 AM

A 'stickler for accuracy" would not post a quote from a post by someone else, which they in no ways agreed with, i such a form as to make readers understand that it was their own view.
...............
This attempt by the British government to pass of responsibility for dealing with this problem to the Bangla Deshi Government. If this young woman is a danger, why should that be foisted upon another country. It's a shameful act of the British Government to impose in this way on a fellow member of the Commonwealth.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 11:15 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declarations_of_war_by_Great_Britain_and_the_United_Kingdom#Formal_declarations_of_war_by_the_Unit

No mention of ISIS

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 11:39 AM

I make no comment on the case of the young lady in question, which case is presumably now sub judice, but it is entirely wrong that the citizenship of anybody should be removed by a stroke of a pen from a government minister, particularly one as patently unfit for office as Javid. He hasn't had time to make a thoughtful consideration of the matter, if indeed he is capable of thoughtful consideration of anything, which I doubt. He is simply pandering to his audience amongst the foaming at the mouth Daily Mail brigade. He should have to apply to the courts for a revokation, it shouldn't be left to the family to take it to court.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 12:05 PM

I would suggest that his decision has much to do with his positioning himself as the next leader of the conservative party.

Time will tell no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 12:09 PM

She is now in a Syrian Refugee camp -
If Assad runs true to form, the inmates of those squalid ghettos will be first in line for his torture chambers in a bloodbath of revenge taking - that's if he doesn't decide to annihilate them in one go with chemical weapons - wouldn't b he first time
Im just waiting for a Tory suit to clam that all this is "being done in the mother's and child's best interest" - that wouldn't be the first time either
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 01:29 PM

I suspect that you are right Raggy. And the sad thing is, that he is too. Because the rabid, foaming at the mouth, crypto-fascist wing now rule the tory party. As Soubry, Wollaston and Allen have correctly identified.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 01:50 PM

"No mention of ISIS "From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 11:15 AM
Maybe not but a rational person would accept that bombing the shit out of someone is an act of war whether formally declared or not.
Quoting extracts from wikipedia is not a very reasoned response.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41336973

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:14 PM

She didn't go abroad to fight, IS recruits these girls to be sexual partners for its fighters, that's why the press calls them "brides". If a 15 year old girl had been groomed to run away from home to a location in the UK in order to have 3 children by an older man, without question that would be considered abuse and she would be regarded as a victim. Why should it make any difference that she went abroad?

She was also radicalised, both before and after she left the UK. To undo that sort of indoctrination/brainwashing takes expert intervention over a period of time. To expect a child (which she was until recently) to de-radicalise herself without assistance, and in an environment where the slightest indication of doubt in the cause or wavering of faith will bring down the most severe punishment, is completely unrealistic.

She should be allowed home. That is not to say she should not face the consequences of her actions, which may include jail, but that should also take account that she was a child who was taken advantage of by adults for their own purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:34 PM

Well put Howard.

Sadly some on here would have her publicly shamed, pilloried, whipped ........... if not hung, drawn and quartered.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:37 PM

Absolutely spot-on, Howard. Those who, like Savid Javed, say otherwise are themselves no better than the savages who radicalised her as a child and enticed her to Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:53 PM

Iains, you originally said "we are at war with ISIS". If somebody is bombing the crap out of people, it isn't "we", or at least not any grouping which includes me.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:23 PM

Well said Howard. We must not descend to the level of Isis and bay for blood.
Shamima hasn't (and I admit I'm assuming this, but it seems reasonable) physically undertaken terrorist activities. She has offered herself as a jihadi bride (as stated above). She has also been brought up by a radicalised father and been subjected to indoctrinating pressures.

I'd like to think that most British people would not be despising her, wanting to see her suffer or wish her ill.

We can adopt the moral high ground and show tolerance, sympathy and care. I'm old and have always thought of my country as made up of mild, tolerant and kind people. But sadly, this appears to be changing these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 05:23 PM

Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:53 PM ..........

It is "we" in the sense of Her Britannic Majesty's Government acting on your behalf, whether you like it or not.

The youngest age that potential recruits can apply to join the British army is 15 years and 7 months. They cannot go on active service until 18.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/shortcuts/2013/apr/23/british-armed-forces-16-year-olds
Does it make any difference that in the case of these young soldiers we call it training and for Isis volunteers it is called radicalisation.
It is well established that radicalisation of jihadis can present a potential risk when they return.
It is also well documented that many soldiers on returning to civvy street can carry trauma and injuries that prevent their effective reintegration into society.
With limited resources which of the two groups listed is the more deserving of our sympathy and help.
I have a great problem in accepting the young lady is the poor exploited victim of circumstance that has been painted. Unless drugged and kidnapped you do not travel to foreign countries and cross borders without tacit consent. The only mitigation I would accept is the complicity of government being afraid of upsetting sensibilities, by refusing to clean out the Augean stables of extremism and fundamentalism in certain mosques.
Hers is not the only case. Many other jihadi brides are in camps or already returned along with unknown numbers of jihadi fighters.
Future wars are likely to show a similar asymmetry to that exemplified by the situation in Syria. This requires a viable solution is found quickly. Letting jihadis slide back without sanction poses an unacceptable risk.

Harping on about Shemima Begun being a child is simply a device to dodge reality. Criminal responsibility in the UK is 10 years old.
The arguments presented by many here blithely ignore the fact that by their arbitrary standards many of our frontline troops are children.
Why are you happy to accept that? Your silence on the subject is deafening. You make no comment on the fact that "children" are in uniform and being killed, injured, mentally damaged and given scant resources to rejoin society. Yet one adult with a child offering succour to our enemies is treated here as though the entire world is against her. What a bizarre ranking of priorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 05:30 PM

Did I say that I was happy about that? Putting children in wars is child abuse no matter who is doing it. And if "Her Britannic Majesty's government" is doing it, they are not doing it in my name.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 05:40 PM

In my view, compassion isn't rationed. I have the utmost pity for and sympathy with any young person on whatever side of whatever conflict who has been abused, indoctrinated and used as cheap 'cannon fodder'.

I know that many ex-servicemen are traumatised and suffer from PTSD.
They deserve all the help they need to improve their mental health.

I have a particular interest (because my husband has studied this) in cases of young African boys who have been forced to carry weapons and fight in civil wars. (Rwanda, Cote d'Ivoire for example) They were/are drugged to dampen their fear and probably mentally damaged for life.

By wishing for better treatment for one casualty one doesn't therefore not care about all the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 06:02 PM

Right. Here's a new appeal to all the decent thinking members of this forum. Please do not engage in any shape or form with Iains. His modus operandi is to post a cod-moderate post, then to subsequently inject poison and rabid insults. He will always do this and it is very foolish to allow yourself to be suckered into responding to one of his superficially "reasonable" posts. You know very well what will happen. Let this sour old man post his bile in unanswered isolation. That's the best way to get rid of him. Cheers, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 01:58 AM

And once again Steve - Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Thompson
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 03:15 AM

I’m reminded of the Mitford daughter so in love with Hitler that she attempted suicide when England declared war on Nazi Germany, and her sister, an English Nazi. Totally different attitudes to their radicalisation then...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:50 AM

In December 2018, Kurdish authorities held 550 foreign women about 1200 in captivity. A large part of the children were born in Syrian territory controlled by ISIS. Many of the women still shared ISIS ideology and lacked passports and therefore Kurdish authorities were reluctant to release them. While initially the women and children were kept along civilian Syrian refugees, this proved untenable as hard-liners among the women caused problems when they ganged up and assaulted women who took off the Islamic burqa. They also prevented other women and children from listening to music provided by their captors

Shemimma Begun is being held in the north east in Kurdish controlled territory. The extremists seem a real delight.
How successfully do you change the spots on those leopards?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:02 AM

Bangladesh has now refused entry to this teenager and her new-born child
They are now stateless Britons condemned to a refugee camp quite likely to be wiped out by revenge-taking Assad supporters
Makes you proud - innit !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM

if she's so determined to be fetched back here...

maybe she should change her name to "Ronnie Biggs"...???

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:04 PM

Jumping in at the bottom:

The US has it's own version of this, a young woman whose family is from Yemen, her father was a diplomat, but she was born in New Jersey after he stopped being a diplomat. She has birthright citizenship and has been issues passports twice (the original and a renewal). Yet Trump says she can't return.

Thing is, Trump is dead wrong. She can return. She needs to be debriefed and they might decide she belongs in prison, but she CAN return. Pompeo says she has no basis to return, but he is also wrong. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/us/islamic-state-american-women.html

Stay tuned to this station.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:33 PM

From the BBC



How do you deradicalise someone?


Parsons Green bomber Ahmed Hassan had been enrolled in a "deradicalisation" program, but still went on to carry out his attack

"Hassan had carried out the attack with “ruthless determination and almost military efficiency”, said the judge. “There is no doubt in my mind that you are a very dangerous and devious individual.”

More than 50 people were injured when a fireball swept through the carriage, burning passengers’ skin, hair and clothing, or suffered crush injuries as people fell over each other while trying to escape."

Nikita Malik, who heads up the Centre on Radicalisation and Terrorism at the Henry Jackson Society, has carried out research into women who have joined IS and then returned home with their children.

She said: "Unfortunately, even the deradicalisation programme we have for returnees - which is a Desistance and Disengagement programme - incentivises people in it to lie because the notes are shared with the judges who then determine how often they can see their child."

Shamima Begum names her son Jarrah, which means 'able fighter'

Historian Tom Holland asks why, if the teen wants to 'return to Britain in peace', her newborn's name honours a general famous for 'beating infidels'

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:45 PM

Jarrah is a type of Australian tree.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 03:28 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ubaidah_ibn_al-Jarrah

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 03:38 PM

I think the 'Trump solution' (No legal basis but an ad hoc approach to practically everything) will not obtain in the case of the American 'Jihadi Bride'. I've run into a Saudi professional, lives full time in Arabia, full blown Wahhabi but by virtue of being born in the U.S. a legal American citizen. I don't think that can be changed without a Constitutional amendment. By now I'm sure we are all aware of services that provide for foreign women to visit the United States on what I believe is a tourist visa and give birth in the United States. Haven't heard the Current Occupant opine on this matter.

Meanwhile there are plenty of legal ways to intercept and arrange protection from and for Jihadi Bride. The American Way would be to arrange an appearance on "Love Boat". Since that is not running anymore we can probably do a stand in on Law and Order. Or NCIS DC.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 03:39 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucalyptus_marginata

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 03:44 PM

In the UK we have any number of options, such as Masterchef, or the Great British Sewing Bee.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:53 PM

How do you deradicalise someone?

The Russians and Iranians do it effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mossback
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:22 PM

As do the NSA & CIA.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:47 PM

All this talk about "deradicalisation". The fact is that she was radicalised in this country, nowhere else. Go on, blame anyone you like. Blame her parents. Blame her school. Blame Islam. But I'll tell you what. Had it not been for the Iraq invasion and the the occupation of Afghanistan, and all the other outrages with regard to US and UK foreign policy, including the egregious and pusillanimous support for the perennial and disgusting depredations of successive Israeli regimes, we wouldn't have this issue. So she's our responsibility, and Javid can go to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 08:37 PM

Actually, maybe she should be sent to Israel to deradicalize. Seeing different religions and ethnicities functioning in a liberal society should convince her one way or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:56 PM

Yep, the movement to create an Islamic Caliphate is the fault of the policies of the west and the Jews. I wonder who was to blame for the establishment of the Rashidun Caliphate, the Umayyad Caliphate, the Abbasid Caliphate, the Ottoman Caliphate and all the other parallel Caliphates established in the name of Islam......hmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Thompson
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 01:05 AM

If this young girl is not saved, no doubt England’s tabloid readers will be gloating in a couple of months when her new baby dies of dysentery and she herself of a post-partum infection. (And she is a young girl - at least if she’s anything like I was at 19, young and inexpressibly dopey and know-it-all.)

She may in fact get shelter in the Netherlands, where her husband is from - certainly the best solution. The calm, sensible Dutch generally have little time for drama queening and nonsense, and they have excellent mother and baby support.

People are wondering how you deradicalise someone: mostly by the moderating effect of the people around them. And some treatment for PTSD.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 03:24 AM

A Letter letter from John McDonnell(Labour) to then Home Secretary Theresa May in July 2014 challenging her to strip any British citizens who served in the Israeli Defence Force of their British citizenship. McDonnell writes:

   “Will you be warning any British citizens considering engagement with the IDF that, in line with established British Government practice (e.g. the deprivation of British citizenship from, to date, at least 40 UK passport holders who have been involved in the Syrian civil war), such engagement may put their British citizenship in jeopardy?”
McDonnell went much further, suggesting that Brits volunteering for the IDF should be classed as “terrorists” as well as being deprived of their citizenship.
Incredibly, the letter was still publicly posted on McDonnell’s website until at least June 2017, almost two years after he became Shadow Chancellor. McDonnell has since deleted the letter, but the internet never forgets…
McDonnell’s position appears to be that Britons with dual Israeli nationality fighting to defend the Israeli state should be stripped of their nationality yet their Islamic State terrorist enemies in the same position should not…


And yet some still argue that antisemitism is not rife within the Labout party .

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 03:41 AM

"the west and the Jews."
The West certainly - only an Antisemite would link the Jewish people with the policies of Israel or suggest that 'The Jews' have any policy
They are as diverse as any other ethnic or religious group on the planet - please stop stereotyping them - history has shown how lathal that can be
Every religion has its radical or extremist groups - superstition based on supreme beings tends to do that
Isis rose from being an insignificant sect of cranks into a major International terrorist threat because the West didn't care enough to do something about a despot with a penchant for torturing and murdering anybody who spoke against him and his regime
Instead of opposing what he was doing, they sided with him against protesters demanding a better life and provided him with equipment which allowed him to imprison, torture and murder them
When all this is over, they will almost certainly seek to bury his crimes and BECOME HIS FRIEND AGAIN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 04:02 AM

to be anti israeli government does not make one anti semitic any more than being anti trump means you are racist against Americans

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 04:12 AM

Isis rose from being an insignificant sect of cranks into a major International terrorist threat because the West didn't care enough to do something about a despot with a penchant for torturing and murdering anybody who spoke against him and his regime
Instead of opposing what he was doing, they sided with him against protesters demanding a better life and provided him with equipment which allowed him to imprison, torture and murder them
When all this is over, they will almost certainly seek to bury his crimes and BECOME HIS FRIEND AGAIN

I hate too tell you this but Saddam Hussein is dead. Keep up with the program!

The roots of ISIS trace back to 2004, when the organization known as “al Qaeda in Iraq” formed. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who was originally part of Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda Network, founded this militant group.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 04:33 AM

"to be anti israeli government does not make one anti semitic"
Someone needs to tell Israel that, though I'm quite sure they are fully aware of it already - any rung will do to climb a ladder
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 04:52 AM

I would say that anyone that declares a person of dual UK/Israeli nationality fighting for Israel to be a terrorist and be deprived of UK nationality has a distinct problem with Jewry period.
(Israel is of course our staunchest ally in the Middle East)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 04:55 AM

The Dudley North MP Ian Austin has said he is quitting the Labour party, telling the Express and Star newspaper he has no plans to join the Independent Group.

He told the newspaper there was a “culture of extremism, anti-Semitism and intolerance” in the Labour party.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 06:28 AM

Ian Austin
Friend of Israel
In May 2009, The Daily Telegraph reported that Austin had tried to split a claim for stamp duty on buying his second home in London into two payments and tried to claim the cost back over two financial years. This allowed him to claim the majority of the money (£21,559, just £75 short of the maximum) under his second-home allowance in the 2005/06 financial year. He then claimed for the remaining £1,344 stamp duty cost in 2006–2007, together with his legal fees. In all, he went on to claim £22,076 (£34 short of the maximum) in the next financial year.[21]
It also reported that Austin "flipped" his second-home designation weeks before buying a £270,000 London flat, and that he had claimed £467 for a stereo system for his constituency home, shortly before he changed his second-home designation to London. He then spent a further £2,800 furnishing the new London flat.[21]

Labour really are getting their act together at last - more power to their elbows
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 07:21 AM

"Labour really are getting their act together at last - more power to their elbows"

Yes it is now a double act with the Monster Raving Soubry Party!

Roll up, Roll up, otherwise you may miss the clowns.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 08:28 AM

Ian Austin
Friend of Israel

Jeremy Corbyn
Friend of anti-Semitic terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah and theocratic, murderous Islamic Republic of Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 09:07 AM

..after the loss of keith, I felt kind of bereft, and lost all interest in BS...

I'm gradually dipping my toes back in...


Encouraging to see Iains and bob are keeping up the low standards....

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mossback
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM

Every religion has its radical or extremist groups

For instance:

"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu brokered a deal this week with the right-wing extremist party Jewish Power, which has roots in a violent, racist movement that Israel and the U.S. deemed a terrorist organization.

Jewish Power, or Otzma Yehudit, is led by followers of Brooklyn-born Meir Kahane, an openly racist and ultranationalist rabbi who led extremist organizations in the United States and Israel."

Huffington Post

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 10:26 AM

"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu"
Hopefully about to be replaced by the parties uniting to give him the Rotal Order of The Boot (if he isn't banged up for corruption)
Can't remember what happened to his missus for the same thing
Funny how the media managed to miss all this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 02:11 PM

To get this interesting thread vaguely back on course it is necessary to point out that "deradicalisation" programs are not 100% successful.

The Parsons Green bomber told Home Office officials when he arrived in Britain that he had been trained as an Isis child soldier, a court has heard.Iraqi teenager Ahmed Hassan was taken into foster care and interviewed by authorities in 2016 and claimed he had not been sent by the terrorist group to launch an attack.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/parsons-green-attack-bombing-isis-london-underground-tube-iraqi-refugee-ahmed-hassan The home made bomb was faulty and did not fully detonate.
Even so 50 people had burn injuries of varying severity. Had the bomb detonated the included shrapnel would undoubtedly have caused many fatalities and horrendous injuries.
The perpetrator was a child of "18"

" According to the latest estimate by the Office of the Directorate of National Intelligence (ODNI), the rate of confirmed or suspected recidivism among former Guantanamo detainees is about 27 percent or 161 individuals out of the 600 released (HASC, 2012). The estimated recidivism rate, however, has been rising up from seven percent in July 2008 to 14 percent in April 2009, and 25 percent in October 2010 (HASC, 2012"
It would seem reasonable to suppose of the 800 returning jihadis 200 pose a severe risk and will attempt to maim and kill indiscriminately".

And for a stunning effort Bliar Blair not only pushed for a terrorist to be released from Guatanomo Bay but also paid him £1million pounds compensation. He then promptly went back to Iraq and got exterminated while on a terrorist mission. I hope the government reclaimed his proceeds of crime!

All returning jihadis have to be considered a very real risk. Some of those returning will undoubtedly try to kill again. We have no idea who they will be!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 02:21 PM

I've been wondering about what crimes Shamima has actually committed.

I understand her opinions and loyalties are abhorrent, and that she demonstrated support for a terrorist organisation by arriving in Syria to marry one of their adherents. But am I right in thinking that none of these things is actually a crime of itself?

She did travel using her sister's passport, which was illegal of course.

Is it against UK Law to be the wife of a jihadi and bear his child?

If she were to be repatriated to the UK, what exactly would the CPS find to accuse her of?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM

The Jewish people ARE linked to the formation of Israel, the Jewish State. This does not mean that all actions of Israel are indissoluble with 'the Jewish people' but there is a common interest in survival and a common identification with the survival of both entities as linked.

The Jewish people as a whole in the United States are very pro-Israel, although this does not mean they would vote for the current Israeli PM. After all, not all Israelis did. Israel, as is any Democracy, is rife with political strife. Israel's government is more modelled after that of Britain than that of the United States.

Does agreement or disagreement with the BREXIT vote entail declaring that Britain is an oppressive state or the opposite?

Are there Mudcatters who believe that support of Israel and fighting for the IDF is on a moral equivalency to support of ISIS and fighting for ISIS? I agree that they both being with the letter 'I' but that's only in the English language and there the resemblance ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 02:26 PM

Iains - I'd not be entirely opposed to a humanely run Alcatraz style island quarantine, evaluation and re-education camp....
But how.. where...???

The Bristol Channel...?????

... Even if there can be cross party consensus, again it's all ultimately down to costings and practicalities...

at the most insecure and uncertain time in modern UK history...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 02:57 PM

"The Jewish people ARE linked to the formation of Israel, the Jewish State."
As are those of us whose families opposed antisemitism and supported the Jewish State
Ther is no connection with the ideals that gave rise to he Jewish State and the ethnic cleansing policies of the present leadership, in fact those policies are directly responsible for the sharp rise in antisemitism
By hiding by Jewish history to defend policies comparable to those that made the formation of the state necessary is to paint a target on every Jew on the planet - there can be no 'self interst' for the Jewish people in that
A holocaust survivor once summed it up personally for me - "never again - not for anybody"
It's happening again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 03:04 PM

Jim:
It has happened again for the people of Darfur, the Tutsis, the Yazidis, the Coptics, the Uyghurs, the Rohingyas, the Falashas, the Syrians, the Kurds, and quite a few others. Persecution knows no ethnicity.

Your ability to center your afflictions remains undiminished. Your calling the kettle black does not remove you from pot status.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 03:05 PM

PFR the idea has some merit as statistics prove recidivism occurs. I would argue that the little buggars that have not been captured likely pose a much higher risk of continuing their nefarious pastimes and despite increasing legislation concerning chemical sales those to make explosives can still be sourced. Even the Anarchists cookbook is still on the internet.
Internment has been used before and would have the benefit of reducing public risk. Better safe than sorry. What we have now could well be the face of modern warfare, we have yet to develop the tools to combat it
http://www.claws.in/images/journals_doc/742067376_MBSushir.pdf

Some argue deradicalisation takes several generations

http://studies.aljazeera.net/en/reports/2018/05/100-percent-defeat-isis-ideology-180508042421376.html

There is an additional problem of quantifying the risk posed by "non belligerent" members. If steeped in the ideology and unrepentant they also can pass their toxic message to their offspring unless they are taken from them. Without witness or evidence how do you establish non belligerence? Why bother? fighting or non fighting they can still transmit their extremist ideology and that in itself is a risk.

As far as the UK is concerned it is an unholy mess. We can forgive terrorists their sins yet persecute our soldiers fighting them by allowing ambulance chasing legal vermin to pursue them in the courts decades after the alleged "crimes"

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 03:29 PM

"All returning jihadis have to be considered a very real risk"

No-one, not one single poster has suggested otherwise.

once again ............ idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 03:34 PM

"Some of those returning will undoubtedly try to kill again. We have no idea who they will be!"

If they are returning Jihadhi's I have sufficient faith in our security forces that each and very one them will be very well known.

Once again ......... you know the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 03:35 PM

But how will they vote in the next Brexit referendum? Some stuff is important....

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:34 PM

I see Jihadi Jack now wants to return. Different kettle of fish and throws a spanner in the works of any other repatriations.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 06:10 PM

"Some of those returning will undoubtedly try to kill again. We have no idea who they will be!"

If they are returning Jihadhi's I have sufficient faith in our security forces that each and very one them will be very well known.

With 23000 Jihadis at home and others returning from foreign climes, yes I am sure they know all their names and what papers they read and what risk each one of them poses.
"As a recent study says:“National resources in most countries are insufficient to monitor more than a handful of returnees” (Barrett, 2014). And surveillance of such individuals may have to continue for months or years. Whether all returning fighters should be promptly arrested or dealt with more discriminately is a topic of debate in Europe."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huge-scale-of-terror-threat-revealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq

I suspect something a tad more tangible than faith is required to sort the problem. But ignorance is bliss(so they say)


https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/perspectives/PE100/PE130-1/RAND_PE130-1.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 08:13 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 03:34 PM
"Some of those returning will undoubtedly try to kill again. We have no idea who they will be!"
If they are returning Jihadhi's I have sufficient faith in our security forces that each and very one them will be very well known.
Once again ......... you know the rest.

Yes, and I'm sure I've heard reports of atrocities committed by people who were later described as "known to the police/security forces"

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:16 AM

From a personal standpoint: responding on forums is now tedious and counterproductive due to the inability - whether it's deliberate or unintentional - of some who see every word that is written by anyone else as some personal affront. An answer to a question is an answer to a question, not a personal mainfesto with a hidden agenda of personal vilification.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:03 AM

"Your ability to center your afflictions remains undiminished. Y"
And your tendency to use "whataboutism" to defend the actions of a terrorist state remains as appeasing as it has always been
As you say, the world is full of rogue administrations and always has been
There is litle that can be done about them as things stand
Now and again, a state oversteps the mark and is acted against
It should have happened in Germany, but it didn't until too late - with the unforgotten consequences
South Africa overstepped the mark and its own excesses coupled with a world wide boycott eventually led to its collapse
In my, and many others (including Jews) opinion, Israel has now overstepped that mark
It has recently slaughtered over twice the number of unarmed demonstrators as did the Apartheid regime in South Africa
A blockade aimed at starving the Palestinians into accepting continuing land seizures is now over a decade old
You only have to pull up the Amnesty figures to see how extensive those land seizures have become
Even the moderate Israeli press is talking about 'ethnic cleansing' and the BDS campaign is becoming as serious and issue as to lead Israel into attempting to interfere in the politics of other nations

As an early supporter of The State of Israel, I am appalled at the fact that the actions of the Israeli Government has now added greatly to the rise i antisemitism - serious enough to make it a major issue for me
Saying it's ok because others are doing it doesn't hack it - you act on what you care about and do what little you can
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:21 AM

Support for Israel is fine, robomatic. I support Israel and utterly condemn people who call for its destruction. What is not fine is support, usually unconditional, for anything the Israeli regime chooses to do. Yes there are many unpleasant factions among Arab and non-Arab Islamic nations in the Middle East and none of them are democracies in any sense we'd recognise. But the conflicts of that region, and their tentacles spreading across the globe, are squarely the upshot of the depredations of Israeli regimes and their ill-treatment of their neighbours, the Palestinians in particular, which the West enhances via their support for Israeli regime outrages and the refusal to engage with the victims of those regimes. The blame for flying planes into buildings falls squarely on the shoulders of the men who fly those planes. But without the propping up of successive Israeli regimes, and given fair treatment of the Palestinians, there would be no Hezbollah, no Hamas, no Al Qaeda, no Isis, no 9-11. Let's be honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:26 AM

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/ran_br_a4_m10_en.pdf


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/20/europe/isis-jihadi-returns-europe-gbr-intl/index.html


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4048648/15000-people-sign-petition-to-block-is-convert-and-recruiter-sally-jones-from-returning-to
The family family of Sally, of Chatham, Kent, are convinced she will find a way back.One relative said: "She would find a way. She's very cunning.”

As one commentator said at the time:It's a no brainer.
“Her sweet little life with ISIS has turned sour, she's up for the highest bid and wants to return home on benefits and still hates us.
Subsequently she was reported killed in a drone strike. This is unconfirmed.

More than 550,000 sign petition to BAN all ISIS members from returning to UK.

Houston. We have a problem!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:27 AM

Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has condemned the withdrawal of citizenship of this teenager and her newborn child as undermining the security of Bangladeshis living in Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:31 AM

HE'S NOT PARTICULARLY HAPPY ABOUT BREXIT EITHER
The UNITED Kingdom, my arse
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:55 AM

I am far more concerned about returning Jihadis undermining the security of Britain. So far we have only revoked nationality of 140 of them.

Good to see the usual leftards think a minority is of far more importance than the majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 10:29 PM

My unofficial conversation with a couple of fellow Alaskans resulted in me being the most sympathetic to the American Jihadi bride. They felt she had no right of return nor citizenship.

She was interviewed and a brief bit shown on last night's (02/22/19) NBC news. She was asked about some of her rather vicious tweets for people to rent vehicles and run down other people, etc. and she answered: "My lawyer told me not to talk about this". So she seemed to be up on her desire to have everything her way and have somebody else foot the bill, which seems to me quite an American attitude.

One other concern that I haven't seen in this thread is that for either UK or US Jihadi bride, how does a decision on these ones impact the many others waiting in the wings? And can we distinguish between Jihadi brides and Jihadi brideGROOMS?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 05:14 AM

And can we distinguish between Jihadi brides and Jihadi brideGROOMS?

Why bother? They pose an equal risk until incarcrated and interrogated.
Recidivism rates of up to 25% beg the question as to whether some should ever be released.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/female-isis-brigade-cracks-women-raqqa/story?id=24622389

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 05:15 AM

That should be recidivism. before thenusual nonsense starts from the usual suspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 07:21 AM

Wait, whom did the bride kill?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 07:34 AM

"
Wait, whom did the bride kill?"
These people went out to fight Assad's thugs who were slaughtering people while the West stood by and did SFA
It is not who they killed but whether they are likely to kill again
This is one of those excuses to support inhuman acts by the real culprits
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 08:55 AM

These people went out to fight Assad's thugs who were slaughtering people while the West stood by and did SFA
Poor old jim thinks they are they are fighting his enemy therefore they must be his friends. ISIS s a Salafi jihadist militant group and former unrecognised proto-state that follows a fundamentalist, Salafi doctrine of Sunni Islam.
The group has been designated a terrorist organisation by the United Nations and many individual countries. ISIS is widely known for its videos of beheadings and other types of executions of both soldiers and civilians, including journalists and aid workers, and its destruction of cultural heritage sites. The United Nations holds ISIL responsible for human rights abuses and war crimes. ISIS also committed ethnic cleansing on a historic scale in northern Iraq.
According to a report by the magazine Foreign Policy, children as young as six are recruited or kidnapped and sent to military and religious training camps, where they practice beheading with dolls and are indoctrinated with the religious views of ISIS. Children are used as human shields on front lines and to provide blood transfusions for ISIS soldiers.
Sexual violence perpetrated by ISIS includes using rape as a weapon of war instituting forced marriages to its fighters;[ and trading women and girls as sex slaves.

You are letting your anglophobic tendencies run away with your sanity!
. ISIS promotes religious violence, and regards Muslims who do not agree with its interpretations as infidels or apostates. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 09:02 AM

But does Jeremy Corbyn consider ISIS his friends?

Sajid Javid is preparing to ban Hizbollah, the Iran-backed militant group, as soon as this week, The Sunday Telegraph understands.

The Home Secretary is expected to proscribe the entire Shia organisation as a terrorist group, preventing supporters from parading its flag through the streets of Britain.

The move will have to be approved by Parliament, raising the prospect that it could be opposed by Jeremy Corbyn, who once referred to members of the group as "friends".

Edward Malnick, Sunday Political Editor
23 February 2019 • 8:00pm

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mossback
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 11:21 AM

Reality Check:

Since Trump took office, more Americans have been killed by white American men with no connection to Islam than by Muslim terrorists or foreigners.
**Jennifer Williams, Vox, 2 Oct 2, 2017

Jihadists are no longer the main terrorist threat facing the country. Since 9/11, no foreign terrorist group has successfully conducted a deadly attack in the United States. The main terrorist problem in the United States today is one of individuals—usually with ready access to guns—radicalized by a diverse array of ideologies absorbed from the Internet.
**Peter Bergen and David Sterman, Foreign Affairs 30 Oct 2018

Out of 65 incidents last year [2017], 37 were tied to racist, anti-Muslim, homophobic, anti-Semitic, fascist, anti-government, or xenophobic motivations. In the same period, seven attacks were linked to Islamic extremists.
**Luiz Romero, Quartz, 24 Oct 2018

“Today, Americans are more likely to be killed by their fellow Americans than jihadists,” former special FBI agent Clint Watts tells me. “
**Jennifer Rubin, Washington Post 1 Nov 2018

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 12:19 PM

The US uses extraordinary rendition to take persons suspected of ISIAS links to Guatanomo Bay and waterboards them. Your problem will arise when they regain their freedom and seek revenge instead of Jihad.
According to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, as of January 2017, 714 detainees have been transferred from Guantanamo Bay. Of these, 16.9% are listed by them as confirmed of returning to terrorist or militant activities, while 12.2% are suspected by them of the same. The Defense Intelligence Agency maintains that slightly more have reengaged. A small percentage are US citizens.

In Afghanistan alone As of July 27, 2018, there have been 2,372 U.S. military deaths in the War. 1,856 of these deaths have been the result of hostile action. 20,320 American service members have also been wounded in action during the war. In addition, there were 1,720 U.S. civilian contractor fatalities.
To this have to be added casualties in Iraq, Syria and sundry other middle eastern countries being subjected to the "War on Terror"

The above reality check in the previous post seems blind to the harsh reality that a death is a death no matter on whose soil it occurs (and we had best not talk about civilian casualties.)


https://www.npr.org/2019/02/21/696769808/what-happens-when-americans-who-joined-isis-want-to-come-home?t=1551028628602

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 03:20 PM

A death is a death no matter what the nationality of the person killed is. So yes, lets talk about civilian deaths, at the hands of the US military and others.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM

"But does Jeremy Corbyn consider ISIS his friends?"

Nope.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 03:41 PM

I would imagine that JC's relationship with ISIS is very much the same as The Beast of Grantham's relationship with the IRA when she was having those secret meetings with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 07:31 PM

So, she didn't kill anybody?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 08:00 PM

Aiding and abetting makes you equally criminally responsible for the killing according to the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 08:31 PM

Well yes, provided you're subjected to due process, sort of thing. Lynch mobs are slightly out of fashion this end.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 08:48 PM

Elite SAS troops found the severed heads of 50 sex slaves murdered by Islamic State fighters as they led the assault on the terror group's last stronghold. Hopefully they'll be subjected to due process, sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 09:05 PM

Couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 09:16 PM

As if lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 09:36 PM

ISIS brides subjected to Iraqi due process, sort of thing:

Dozens of foreign ISIS brides are being sentenced to death in Iraq as the country exacts its revenge after three years of jihadi occupation.

Pleading that they themselves are victims, the women were given 10 minutes to beg for their lives before judges decide their sentence.

Many of them find little sympathy with the Iraqi judiciary and locals and are despised for their support of their militant husbands, who tore the country apart between 2014 and 2017.

https://nypost.com/2018/05/22/dozens-of-foreign-isis-brides-sentenced-to-death-in-iraq/

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 11:50 PM

The New York Post is yellow journalism. Trash. Never believe what they say, go out and check a reliable source.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 03:43 AM

"Dozens of foreign ISIS brides are being sentenced to death in Iraq "
So it's ok for Britain to treat them live vermin then - yeah - that makes sense !!!
'Whataboutism; seems to be an excuse for every crime and atrocity under the sun nowadays- from the Catholic church to Israel
THE GOODIES IN THIS WAR
FURTHER REFUGEE CRISIS IN THE MAKING
THE CRISIS IN FULL

It seems to me this sick, knee-jerk, revenge taking mentality, coupled with Brexit's aim not to admit refugees is about to open the door on a world-wide obscenity of denial, indifference and inhumanity
Maybe Britain should build a wall like Trump's
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:02 AM

Build a wall?   Why?

This fortress built by Nature for her self
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in a silver sea
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
This nurse, this teeming womb of royal kings,
Feared by their breed and famous for their birth,
Renownèd for their deeds as far from home
For Christian service and true chivalry

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:23 AM

Apprently international law states that refugees should settle in the ' first friendly country ' why do so many of them pass through friendly countries to get to the UK ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:50 AM

I think the UK is seen as the Holy Grail. Many W Africans I've spoken to, in francophone countries, nevertheless see UK as the one and only place they'd wish to reach. Inhabitants of ex-French colonies, where one would have thought France would be their destination, imagine that in UK (not France) life is sheer Paradise.

Our neighbour drives a big lorry to Calais and onwards across Europe. On his return, he sees loads of African migrants trying to slink on board lorry trailers and under chassis etc. to get to the UK. They've camped in France near the crossing for months/years, but still they try to come here clandestinely.

He says all the drivers keep an eye out and warn each other if potential 'passengers' are around. A bit scary I should think!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 09:04 AM

"Renownèd for their deeds as far from home
For Christian service and true chivalry"

Well thats gone out of the window now, hasn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 09:30 AM

Depends upon your point of view dear boy!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM

Jackboots thud, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 10:14 AM

Most of the refugees and asylum seekers come from ex-colonies that never recovered from the mess of centuries of Imperial rule - Briatain still owes them, especially as they are fleeing from dictators that are still being supported bt the present British establishment and conditions created by the conditions ofr near-slave labour encouraged by our filling our shops with their products
Britain always had a nast habit of treating people we owe a debt to as parasites and a threat to our way of life
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 10:23 AM

"Britain always had a nast habit of treating people we owe a debt to as parasites and a threat to our way of life"

... eg. Polish fighter pilots, as the recent WW2 movie "Huricane"* reminds us...

"Thanks a lot, now bugger off back where you came from..."


[* a shame this movie didn't have sufficient budget to be as good as it should have been...]

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mossback
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 10:28 AM

Looks like Roseanne Barr & bobad have a lot in common! See "Bye Bye" thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 12:26 PM

"Britain always had a nast habit of treating people we owe a debt to as parasites and a threat to our way of life"

Oh Dear who rattled his cage. In what way do we mistreat Americans, Australians, Canadians.............?

I look forward to a detailed response, or retraction.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:04 PM

Of course we mistreat Australians, Americans and Canadians. We have stolen their land, and our descendants have imposed an alien culture on them. Whilst appropriating their nationality.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM

I suppose you mean native peoples. In the case of America we had already lost the colony when the major land grab occurred,including The Louisiana Purchase, Hawaai, Alaska. Annexation of Texas.
Not forgetting
American Samoa.
Guam.
Northern Mariana Islands.
Puerto Rico.
U.S. Virgin Islands

I do like accuracy when counter points are made.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 03:58 PM

Who is this "we". The people that "we" lost the colony to were the brothers, sisters, sons and daughters of the "we" that lost it. We the colonists of UK and other European descent stole the land from the native peoples in all of those countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:33 PM

wot abaht the Romans, Hengist and Horsa, william the Conqueror, to name but a few. Should we repatriate anyone of non celtic origin?
I think they call it ethnic cleansing these days. You are not very PC now are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:27 PM

You need genetic testing to establish that. Even that would produce ambiguous results. Whereas (for instance) Australian Aboriginal communities are pretty well defined, and very disadvantaged. Far more so than any other community in Australia, or any in the UK or Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:35 AM

So a shooting range in the Wirral, that can be attended by kids as young as six, has used an image of Shamima Begum for target practice and has defended itself from criticism. I'll remember that next time I hear any suggestion that we're any better than ISIS.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 11:03 AM

" I'll remember that next time I hear any suggestion that we're any better than ISIS."

errrmmm.. I think ISIS might have gone a bit further than just shooting illustrated paper targets of their victims..???

..I'd acknowledge this as an example of mundane cruel irreverent humour ordinary folk are at liberty to express in a pluralist democracy..
Like my great grandad wiping his arse with newspaper photos of Hitler and Musssolini...

Us lefty liberals must try to keep things in perspective...
It's too easy for certain elements of the left to make us all look like easily dismissed petty precious snowflakes...

There are greater priorities to get ourselves worked up about...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 12:45 PM

"I think ISIS might have gone a bit further than just shooting illustrated paper targets of their victims..???"
The philosophy is the same and, when accessible by kids that young, ***** deplorable
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 12:59 PM

"The philosophy is the same"

No it's not... but even if it is.. only in the realms of Ivory Tower debating & politicking...

Now back to relity...

If I'm going to get annoyed about anything today,
it's the way Chris Williamson is being shat on by reactionary Labour oportunists...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:04 PM

An amazing defence of the indefensible, pfr. If you can't see the offence and potential threat to Muslim women, well God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:14 PM

No.. I'm amongst the many sick of hyperbolic outrage at trivial triggers...

The right wing media knows how to so easily manipulate over-sensitive elements of the left into rereacting like pavlov's dog...
making us all look like fools not to be taken seriously by the greater mass of public opinion...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 02:18 PM

pfr I notice the usual crowd were not batting an eyelid over Kathy Griffin and her severed head of Trump and threats to Barron.

They are Very selective with their outrage/bullshit!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:55 PM

Trivial triggers? You think that making a nineteen-year-old Muslim girl who's been through hell on Earth a jokey shooting target in front of little kids is trivial? Wow. You're not the man I thought you were, pfr. If this makes me a snowflake well I'll gladly be the start of a massive snowdrift.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:55 PM

pfr, I knew there was a reason why I like you, and the reason is reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:33 PM

Or that you think it's ok because she's a Muslim? Straight answer? I doubt it...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:48 PM

Lol.....what a jerk.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 06:21 PM

Or you could try answering the question instead of issuing insults. After all, you have form. Is it because the nineteen-year-old girl is a Muslim? Any chance of a touch of honesty from you?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 07:20 PM

Steve - Hysterical sanctimonious over-reactions from paternalistic middle class lefties
will not win back support from all the former Labour voters
who are finding the far right more appealing to their working class sensibilities...

I want a real Labour Govt back in power at some point in my limited life-time,
not blairite tory lite,
nor immature academic lefties who are more obsessed with fringe issues
than the most important priorities of rebuilding divisive tory damage to our families and nation...

One of the most popular and worst of the hate spreading far right youtubers,
who is amassing a huge following of disaffected ex labour voters,
lives too close to my town...
In such near vicinity I can almost smell him...
I live amongst the kind of folks he is 'recruiting'..
He and his vile ilk depend on self-indulgent lefties like you
talking down to the masses and driving more and more ordinary folks towards his clutches...

I depair at the rising influence and legitimacy of the far right.
So how dare you even imply anyone who does not agree with every word you say
is anti-muslim...!!!

Ironically, you may be one of the liabilities on the left
who makes the far right's goal of converting ordinary folks into their supporters
all that much easier...?????????

Little wonder Iains and bob are laughing their bollocks off...

Even back in the late 1970s I became aware that some of my enemies on the right
were actually less obnoxious human beings than too many of my own kind on the left...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 08:44 PM

Well first of all your erstwhile mates of choice haven't got any bollocks to begin with. Choose your friends better is my advice. Second, thanks for the verbiage, pfr (always a sign of diversionary guilt-stroke-digging in), but do try to focus. A shooting club, attended by mostly whites, uses a picture of a nineteen-year-old Muslim girl, a victim of ISIS, as target practice. Six-year-olds are allowed to attend and see this. You think that's trivial. I think it's symptomatic of this country's abhorrent acquiescence in Islamophobia. I think that anyone who's allowed to take shots at her face in the image is receiving institutional comfort and succour in their race hatred. You think that doesn't matter. I wouldn't dream of shooting at that image if I were a member of that shooting club, and I'd resign my membership. Maybe you'd take your shots and laugh it off. Sorry, mate, you may be a fellow Westcountry lad but we have parted company here. Trivialising race hatred is racist. If the cap fits and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 10:59 PM

Steve - what mates of choice...??? apparently not you.. and certainly not Iains and bob...!!!
I can maintain polite interaction with folks I disagree with,
as well as take the piss when it's battle time...
Even the most loathsome adversaries can occasionally write the most level headed and entertaining posts...
Likewise, allies can write complete wrongheaded bollocks...


Yes I do think you are making a big blustering fuss about something quite trivial
in the greater scheme of matters of real life importance..

..and your jumping to pompous over-extrapolated conclusions,
accusing me of being racist on no sensible evidence whatsoever,
merely on the basis of your own overwraught self important moralistic misinterpretation
of a few hastily written sentences I have posted...
... well...

I stand by my opinions, and won't be bossed around...

Most ordinary folks are not paragons of PC rectitude,
and they certainly can't stand being patronised, dictated to, and controlled..
I can now conclude you are far too out of touch to have any influence
in persuading anyone working class to return to voting Labour..

I have very good friends who have devoted their lives to the local Labour Party.
I have the utmost respect for them.
Together we have been united against racism and the far right for over 40 years

But it is saddening to see the self-destructive infighting that is destroying the party..
Vindictive crucifying of anyone who dares oppose the scheming blairite bullies..
Or won't accept the control freakery of the furthest left academic radical fanatics,
obsessed with politics of identity and representation - symbolism and semiotics..
[or even just petty stupid air pellet targets].

They are the real useful idiots,
alienating potential voters with their antagonistic public displays
of self-indulgent self-rightious ideological extremism...
They are regarded as jokes by the wider electorate,
who dismiss Labour as irrelevant;
and despised as enemies of 'the people' by the increasingly popularist far right...

I never got round to joining the Labour party,
and can't expect I ever will..
knives to the back and front would be stabbing from all directions...
Such sheer stress treading on eggshells all the time...
Daring not speak in case an innocent word enrages any of a multitude of diverse self importanty zealots...

I am becoming even more convinced that we are condemned to many more years of tory misrule...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 03:01 AM

"I never got round to joining the Labour party,"
Me neither, but if some of the present promises are genuine I would seriously consider becoming part of them (if I lived in the UK)
I might even get round to voting again
One of the most promising signs has been the return in considerable numbers, the people who were driven out by New Labour and its war criminal leader
Politics would be very important if it wasn't for the politicians
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 04:21 AM

Even the most loathsome adversaries can occasionally write the most level headed and entertaining posts

With which they sucker you into responding before resorting to abuse and trollish behaviour. As long as you keep responding, they will keep doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:02 AM

I wonder how the trollish gnome struggles up on to his high horse?
Does he use a block and tackle?

As Kacey Musgrave says:

And I think we've seen enough, seen enough
To know that you ain't ever gonna come down
So, why don't you giddy up, giddy up
And ride straight out of this town

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM

Strikes me that shooting at a picture of a 19-year-old Muslim girl, potentially in front of children, is about on the same level as hate speech. Islamophobia made acceptable, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:38 AM

Justin Bieber, Margaret Thatcher and Donald Trump are among the other famous targets used by the same range.
Does your outrage extend to them also? Your little packmates were quite happy to see an effigy of Trump's head paraded around and kept very quiet about the threats to his son.

Tell me laddie. Are you expressing outrage or hypocrisy?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 10:12 AM

well.. so far on mudcat I've been accused of being anti-semitic, anti-muslim, and anti-christian...*

I could probaly annoy agnostics and atheists as well before too long...

Folks can't say I'm not even-handed...???


[* any other faiths want to have a go at me - because I'm sure I can probably find something to upset them...]

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 01:25 PM

I've referred to your comments, not attacked you in person. In view of your last few posts, you can't say the same, unfortunately. But your comments may betray the real you for all I know. As for racism, I asked you whether the cap fits. Clearly you don't think it does. My remark did not amount to calling you a racist. Even though you think that shooting a gun at a photo of a young Muslim woman in front of kids is trivial. Not a symptom of anything. Can't possibly deprave or corrupt or give comfort to the inner racism in us. Just us having harmless fun. Not applying implicit judgement of any kind to her. Yeah, sure.

And whaddya know, they shouldn't be shooting at pictures of Thatcher or anyone else either. That kind of behaviour diminishes us. We can far better shoot them down on forums like this or in animated argiebargies in the pub or in piss-taking satire on the telly or in cartoons in the papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 02:19 PM

Steve - you need to understand Labour can not hope to ever regain lost working class voters
if they are being constantly judged, preached to, and scolded by sanctimonious middle class lefties
who treat them with disdain...

The far right does understand this all too well,
and is rapidly exploiting this mass exodus of disaffected previously loyal traditional Labourites,
who are sick of seeing the party being taken over by Oxbridge blairites in posh suits and ties,
and extreme lefty student zealots who dress and look like 'weirdos'...

Go and address your opinions to any of these ex Labour voters and see how far you get...

Re-engaging these lost voters will not be easy,
or comfortable for over-sensitive didactic PC control freaks...

Wonder if we'll see another Labour Govt...???

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 02:58 PM

My mum's gone nearly 70 years voting in a tory safe seat and has never seen Labour win anything..

..and now previously safe labour seats are struggling against ex voters who would rather not vote at all anymore
because they no longer see any point in the old party system..

Unless they are seduced by the simplistic popularist hate rhetoric of right wing candidates,
who come from the same local backgrounds and are easier to identify with...???

I wouldn't be surprised if our local far right youtuber eventually get's ambitions for public office...

Will we ever see another Labour Govt...???????????

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 03:44 PM

My beef is with the way the young woman in question is being demonised/negatively depicted/generally mistreated by the media. That softens people up to become accepting of awful things such as using her photo for target practice. The legitimisation of sheer nastiness. You see that process as trivial and I don't. Diversifying the issue into whether we'll get a Labour government, etc., is a sideshow of your making. An attempt to change the embarrassing subject. The approach suggests hubris and is quite transparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:04 PM

Steve - I was agreeing with you up until "Diversifying..."
then you go off on an imaginative flight of daftness.

I'm not at all embarrassed...

but I had to look up "hubris".. just to check I remembered what it means..
it's not a word encountered too frequently round our way..

Nope.. not that either...

I am entirely transparent, I say what I mean.
I'm responding apropriately to unjustified smears on my integrity and motives.
All on the basis of your hyped up take on a trivial news item..
Far worse things happen every day...

I respond by talking about political pragmatics,
you seem more concerned with lecturing me on your opinions
and trying to analyse me..

All a bit too self indulgent of you, and pointless really...

Yes there is a negative ideological dimension to those pellet targets.
BUT it's not likely they would have much effect in the outside world beyond the pellet gun club walls.
However, keeping it in perspective,
last general election there was a rented house full of skinheads living across the road.
They had a massive B'n'P poster covering their bay window
as a intimidating provocation for the young black mum and her kids
who lived directly opposite.
I emailed the police, who did eff all...

I live near one of the most deprived estates in the West country,
You seem to enjoy life in idyllic rural surroundings...

One of us may be more in touch with modern reality than the other...???

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 07:05 PM

I live in the poorest county with the poorest farmers in the UK, on one of those struggling farms, and thirty-two years here have taught me that there is no rural idyll, thanks. I dunno whether you live in the middle of Taunton or Bridgwater or summat (even lovely Somerset has its townies) but you appear to be looking Kernow-ward with severely rose-tinted specs. Maybe you've never been here, or maybe you once came here for a week on your hols when a hippie in your dope-scented VW camper van. As if this further attempt at diversion has anything whatsoever to do with using the image of an extremely vulnerable woman, sorry, MUSLIM young woman, as target practice for the racist brainless (after all, no decent person would ever shoot at that image. Would you? No, bottom line - would YOU?). You've shown that you can scattergun around a ton of issues that belong in a different thread but which you opportunistically see as a means of attacking someone who has called you out in order to shift away from the issue. Wot a shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 07:09 PM

pfr look up virtue signalling, this place stinks of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 07:26 PM

If you can't stand the stink, well you know what to do. And be advised that pfr didn't like it when I called you his mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 07:40 PM

when I called you his mate.

That's what shit stains like you do, try to turn people against each other so as to curry favour with and increase your standing with your mates. You are transparently obvious and your bully tactics are well recognized.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:17 PM

Steve - Not everyone can attain your level of moral high ground perfection.
Reactionary and sometimes objectionable prejudices
are a fact of life amongst ordinary working class folks
who used to constitute Labour's traditional core vote...

In most places outside of lefty liberal mudcat BS you will not be taken seriously or tolerated
for your views on the 'Jihadi bride' and these bloody silly pellet targets...
It's largely agreed she should come back to face the music, and her baby should be cared for.
But reality is she's stuck where she is at mercy of an uncertain future.
Getting so worked up about these pellet targets and attacking anyone who isn't as bothered as you
is completely self-indulgent and sows rancour amongst 'friends'...

We seem to have different priorities and methods.
Though we both want the same end, a Labour Govt.
I think we both favour a moderate to quite left manifesto...
This will never happen when a mass of voters are made to feel Labour is no longer their party.

I am becoming even more convinced that as long as the Labour party
continues to be taken over by middle class academics/ideologues,
who are discomforted by and disdainful of the 'uncouth and unruly working class'..*
Then Labour's chances of forming a Govt are f@cked...

Zealous lefties lecturing and scolding anyone who thinks the targets are just 'a bit of fun'
is not likely to win such folks round to continuing to vote labour,
or doing it for a first time...!!!

The mass of new members who have signed up for party membership
because of JC,
are not enough to win an election.
My educated guess is they are mostly young idealistic students
and unrepresentative of the old core Labour voters...???
SO unrepresentative that their presence may be turning away far more older less radical Labour supporters....??????

The far right is eagerly waiting with open arms for all who are driven out from Labour towards their cluches...


[* a pefect example of a "discomforted and disdainful middle class lefty"
was my Ideology lecturer over 35 years ago..
an academic militant politicised in her student youth in some kind of circa 1968 revolutionary socialist party..
I saw her on a bus once sat amidst young working class 'oiks'
and the rigid look of fearful distaste & discomfort on her face was priceless...]

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:39 PM

Btw.. If I had an air gun I'd prefer to shoot at seagulls,
paper targets of anyone's face would be boring...

Yes, I know gulls are a protected species, and harming them is illegal.
But as I don't have any weapons,
the wife took away and hid my catapault and bag of dried peas the day after I bought it,
no flying shitbag vermin need worry about me...

..and 40ish years ago I used to spend summers hitching round Cornwall with my girlfriend and a tent..
We were into coastal hiking & nude sunbathing...
because we were too skint to do anything else....
Those were the days we were becoming politically radicalised
through membership of Rock Against Racism and The Anti N@zi League...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:46 PM

See what "friends" you accumulate, pfr? :-) :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 10:29 PM

Steve/bob - There are folks I respect and admire at mudcat..
Then there are mudcatters I have no respect for whatsoever.

Sometimes, depending on specific posts there can be fluidity and temporary crossover...
Most other mudcatters don't register for too long in my failing memory...

A good well written thought provoking post stands on it's own merit, whoever wrote it..

What I don't do is join mudcat gangs, never have, never will...

Outside of mudcat, I stubbornly avoid all social networks....
I'm not a sociable person, which is one reason I never joined the Labour party...
Just occasionally sitting in with mates at branch meetings was enough for me.
There were too many annoying idiots, I haven't the patience...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 02:44 AM

Anyway back to the thread title, latest news suggests the young lady has done a runner from the camp she was residing int. “She is living in fear of her life. There is a bounty on her head. She felt she had no option but to move her and her child to have a chance of survival.
“Shamima has become something of a celebrity and is constantly looking over her shoulder, fearing brutal reprisals for daring to speak out about life with ISIS.
“She’s in misery, but only has herself to blame.”

As the posters said in WW2:" Careless talk costs lives!"

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 08:17 AM

See what "friends" you accumulate, pfr? :-) :-) :-)

I'm sure the passive aggressive nature of this post didn't escape your notice, pfr. That you disagree with him on this subject places you out of his his group and with his "enemies" ie anyone who has an opinion that differs from his. He's trying to shame you and have you renounce me as your "friend". Classic schoolyard bully tactics.

Similarly, I'm sure you've seen another member of the echo chamber demonizing a poster on another thread for daring to have an opinion contrary to his.

Just wait 'til they all gang up on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 08:43 AM

bob - isis is a real gang, 'Jihadi bride' is probably living in fear of her gang turning nasty on her.
The potential consequences for this young woman and her baby
will be far worse
than anything mudcatters can do to each other if they fall out for a day or two..


I always try to keep things in perspective...


Kids.. just say no to gangs...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 09:31 AM

Exactly pfr, your post is spot on.

It's heartening to see posters becoming aware of the poisonous group dynamics at play here.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 06:06 PM

I warned you, pfr... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 06:30 PM

Yep, you've been warned pfr, better take heed. :-) :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:31 AM

Yes! you will be chased by the fluffy bunny brigade, all mouth and no trousers.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:30 AM

Jihadi bride' is probably living in fear of her gang turning nasty on her.
Confirmed this morning
Teenager and newborn child, threatened by Isis inmates, abandoned by her government and probably in fear of their safety from mob violence if she returns to Britain
Make yrr proud to be a Brit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:51 AM

Journal of Strategic SecurityVolume 9Number 3Volume 9, No. 3, Special Issue Fall2016: Emerging ThreatsArticle 6The Hidden Face of Terrorism: AnAnalysis of the Women in Islamic State


https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/26473339.pdf

They are all potential threats until proven otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 07:12 AM

THE HIDDEN FACE OF TERRORISM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:46 PM

So her baby has died. Two weeks ago the baby was doing well. I suppose someone is going to tell me that his death is an act of God and absolutely nothing to do with the fact that a political decision was made to keep her and her child incarcerated in appalling conditions in a dreadful refugee camp.

Go to hell, Javid. And the sooner the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:43 PM

Tragic news, that perhaps could have been avoided.

However I doubt that some on here will perceive it as such.

And again no doubt they will sleep easy in their beds tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:48 PM

Well bollocks to it, Raggytash. Jesus Christ, if a civilised country can't make at least a bit of of a priority for tiny babies born of one of our own people...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:58 PM

Do either of you have any information as to the cause of death or are you just using this baby's death as a platform to proclaim your superior virtuousness?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 08:20 PM

"So her child has died". And this is a reason to have a go at the UK reaction to the situation?

Perhaps the base cause is just that the mother chose to go and live in a country where conditions were less than ideal for bearing and bringing up children. A country which the (British) Foreign Office were advising that British citizens should avoid visiting, and where, if they did visit, no consular help could be supplied, because we no longer have a consulate in that country.

No matter what the bleeding hearts will tell you, it is the mother who should accept responsibility for the outcome of her actions, sad though that outcome may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 08:27 PM

What a pair of inhuman arseholes you are. A nineteen-year-old has just lost her child after our "civilised" country has refused her return home from a dreadful refugee camp. Christ, what's the matter with both of you?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 08:40 PM

What a pair of inhuman arseholes you are. A nineteen-year-old has just lost her child after our "civilised" country has refused her return home from a dreadful refugee camp. Christ, what's the matter with both of you?

This country has not refused to return her. She can only request help returning by seeking consular assistance in a country with a consul/embassy. She is out there by her own choice. This country has many calls on its facilities, and I see no reason why the country should be expected to provide assistance(or give any priority) for a self-inflicted problem.

Calling those who try to make reasonable points 'arseholes' is the type of ploy which I have come to expect from Steve Shaw, who is unable to put forward a reasoned argument, but seems to avoid any censure by the moderators on the forum.

Appeals to 'Christ' or 'Jesus Christ', twice within the last couple of hours, from a self-avowed atheist, are unnecessary and offensive.

Please, moderators, show some even-handedness here.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 08:44 PM

The news talked of a lung infection. 5 degrees C at night with no heating and very little food. It's hard to see how she could have got out soon enough to save the child. Is she still in Syria or is she in Turkey?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 09:05 PM

What a pair of inhuman arseholes you are.

Well, that answers my question.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 11:20 PM

If it is fair to be concerned with the followers of Meir Kahane and their influence on the government of Israel (and I think it is), it is likewise fair to be concerned with Islamic immigrants and their beliefs when they seek to enter someone else's country. Most of the countries they come from have jihadist citizens and endorse a theocratic monoculture including laws on the books of heresy and blasphemy which are applied to ALL citizens, even if they are not part of the monoculture. A lot of the rising antisemitism in Europe is due not to generational Europeans, but the new wave of Islamic immigrants. It is a valid concern to people who have a chance to stop such problems at their borders.

At the same time, it is not wise to go all squirrelly and protectionist to the nth degree. Syria became a horrible place to those who did not have a 'dog in the fight' i.e. were not eager to live under Bashir Assad and were not prospective ISIS members. They do deserve a hearing and a refuge, at least temporarily. I tended to go along with German PM Angela Merkels' philosophy of opening Europe to these new migrants.

I'm saying that there are valid reasons to question mass immigration from such different places. But it calls for deliberation and decision making, not knee-jerk responses and canned platitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 02:25 AM

Ireland has kept quiet on this - surprise surprise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:14 AM

"This country has not refused to return her"
No - but Britain has been complicit in the death of a newborn child by forcing a teenage British citizen to seek refuge in a squalid and insanitary refugee camp
One wonders at the total deaths that have taken place in such circumstances - the British establishment never blinked a tear when they dragged bodies of DROWNED REFUGEES from the sea rather than give them the sanctuary that has always been afforded
I wonder if "anti-semite" screamers like Bobad would have been as indifferent to the death o this child if it had been a Jewish refugee fleeing Israel
THere would heve been far less Jews in this world if wartime Britain, with all its problems, has adopted the same inhuman stance to those fleeing Nazi Germany
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:12 AM

the mother chose to go

Yes, she did. When she was, what was it? 14 or 15? Not old enough to vote. Not old enough to drink. Certainly not old enough to make life changing decisions. Dissatisfied with her home life, as most teenagers are. Lured by the promise of doing something important. Used, and more than likely, abused by her new "family". And for this she has had to go through the trauma of war, seeing atrocities first hand and losing 3 children. And they are trying to justify our government's complicity in this.

Arseholes is far too mild an expression.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:25 AM

"the mother chose to go"
Sick as it gets really - seems to be indicative of the level British society has sunk to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:47 AM

To willingly take yourself to a warzone where it is a given that life may be terminated by bomb, bullet, malnutrition, lack of medical faciities, etc. etc. Then remain to have3 children, who have all subsequently died, is to exhibit a behavioural trait that requires explanation.
Fanatic springs to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:21 AM

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/04/germany-remove-citizenship-isil-volunteers/

Another country showing a bit of sense

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

Suffer the children - wonder who said that !!!
Thought Nigel was bad enough
The obscene gloating over the plight of young people in dire trouble is as sick as it gets
What a shower of stupid bastards those nut-cases who voluteered their lives and ended them in the mud of Flanders must have been - they should never have been allowed back
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM

Absolutely, and as for her husband - has he not heard of birth control? Obviously not, brains in their pants both of them!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:27 AM

Poor little girl. Three children dead at the age of nineteen, and no one to help her.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM

"Absolutely, and as for her husband - has he not heard of birth control? "
At least this group of "human beings" have support from where they desreve to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:30 AM

Stop desreving boy!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:57 AM

Why use birth control with amy of your young wives? Isn't the point to *have* children? Also, the baby died.

Subject: RE: BS: Should come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 08:19 AM

If 'Jihadi bride' didn't previously pose a risk to British citizens,
Javid is certainly doing his best to turn a silly misguided brainwashed obnoxious teen
into a potential bitter vengeful 'White Widow' style terrorist monster...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM

But not here.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 10:16 AM

Bonz - ..yet...


..maybe a little old fashioned British compassion a month ago
might have brought back a young mum and baby to our care and safety.
That young woman might or might not have been fit to reclaim and rehabilitate to 'normal'society...

However give it 5, 10, 15 years..
who knows what she will become, or how dangerous she might be,
if she slips back here in disguise on a mission...???
Or co-ordinates an event from hiding anywhere else in the world...???

..and she is just only one of who knows how many [British IS] in waiting in those squalid camps...
The surviving camp children with British citizenship
will have already been severely damaged by their experience.
Is Javid going to leave them to rot and die, or perhaps become future adult terrorist threats...???

Javid has not really thought through the long term consequences in his bid to be prime minister asap..

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:10 PM

Javid is an MP. For him long term is the next election. All he is interested in is appeasing the Daily Mail readers until then.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:14 PM

What a shower of stupid bastards those nut-cases who voluteered their lives and ended them in the mud of Flanders must have been - they should never have been allowed back

What a perverted view of history!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:30 PM

"Poor little girl. Three children dead at the age of nineteen, and no-one to help her."

Thank God we have people like Thompson who can say it plain and simple the way it is. Her post says it all. What a contrast to the several heartless, twisting, unthinking bastards who have posted their hateful bile to this thread. Thompson, I apologise for juxtaposing my rather forthright and directly-put opinion next to your measured lament. Feel free to dissociate yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:45 PM

She chose to make herself stateless when joing ISIS,and as harsh as it may sound, I wouldn't be surprised if there never were any children, just an excuse to get back here and cause absolute mayhem.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:56 PM

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 03:05 AM

It’s not really correct to say, as some poster did here, that Ireland has remained silent. A former Irish soldier who joined Isil is now stranded much as the unfortunate Begum is. She will be brought home with her baby; the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, has said unenthusiastically but dutifully that we can’t expect our citizens to be somebody else’s problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:58 PM

In any case it would have been totally unsafe to send rescuers into that war zone - have you considered that dearie?????

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:53 PM

Bonz - if a UK newspaper had decided they could make enough money on her story
despite or because of hostile public opinion,
a team of mercs could have been sent in to get her out...

Even a daring 'rescue' mission itself would have been headline story enough to thrill readers such as yerself over sunday breakfast...

Perhaps even better if she'd been mortally wounded in the attempt to get her out...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM

Possibly, but that is the stuff of fiction. The underlying principle though, conveniently put aside by besandled lefties!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 04:27 AM

Not only besandled and besotted but also oblivious.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:12 AM

Knowing our government, their idea of rescue might be to take the baby, kill her, and dump her body in the sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:13 AM

An observation worth repeating and reinforcing.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:15 PM

Now you have clarified who you were insulting, you may perhaps find a reckoning in a more public forum forthcoming.

Eleven minutes later from the same poster:

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM

Backward man you are a tad behind the curve.

And now:

Not only besandled and besotted but also oblivious

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 06:32 AM

250,000 underage voung soldiers volunteered in the UK in WW1, the youngest aged 12. People only questioned their youth, not their patriotism. Their was no suggestion of brainwashing.

Yet the left shout their outrage about a treacherous teen going to join our enemies. They try to explain it away as the 'Jihadi bride' being but a silly misguided brainwashed obnoxious teen.

You support our enemies, then you are our enemy!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 07:45 AM

Iains - you are now tipping over into talking complete bollocks.
My guesstimation of that 15 year old as she was
is probably spot on.
How on earth does that make me a supporter of ISIS - today you are writing like a pillock.

I await your next more sensible post to restore confidence in your 'better' intelligence...

Apart from the fact that this girl presents a persona that is very unlikeable,
nowhere have I read how bright she was in school at age 15.
Was she a grade A pupil...???
She might be thick and easily lead, very crafty, or a combination of both.
Maybe right now she is a more of an extremely confused and frightened teenage fucked up loser...???

A somewhat more villified version of a lot of 19 year olds
that end up doing serious violent crime and terrorising decent society back here in blighty..

If she is a comparable threat to a highly trained and capable adult terrorist,
that Javid and the tory press are making her out to be.
How come they have no interest in getting her back for interrorgation,
or already eliminated her by drone...???
She's obviously of little value to them...!!!

Which indicates, there is at least a tiny chance she is still young enough to offer prospects for rehabilitation and reintegration
if she was allowed back here under her own steam for trial and detention...
A risk/gamble few of our supposedly fair-minded British citizenship are willing to consider.....

It's apparent her only worth is as a political football for polarised sections of opposing British political zealots


btw - "You support our enemies, then you are our enemy!"

you can shove that nasty nonsense right up your arse...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 07:51 AM

Not just my thoughts.

https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Aiding-the-Enemy.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 08:08 AM

"It is not a crime, in the UK, to marry an Isis fighter, or travel to the caliphate. The Australians have made it a crime to travel to certain regions, but a similar provision in the UK is only just about to become law. It is a crime to have aided and abetted a proscribed terrorist organisation. But sentences for that have been far too short to reflect what is arguably Ms Begum’s betrayal of her country by helping its enemies. Those enemies seek to destroy our democracy, our human rights and our people."


https://www.ft.com/content/157c8e12-3053-11e9-8744-e7016697f225

You could perhaps argue the jihadi bride was a victim when first departing Britain but that argument falls apart when after 4 years the "victim" cries help only because as a hardened jihadist her caliphate is evaporating around her ears and turning into piles of rubble.
Forgiveness starts with remorse!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 08:20 AM

Iains - let's clarify one thing here..

I responded to your line "You support our enemies, then you are our enemy!"
as from the general tone of your posts, and the fact it directly follows a quote of my writing,
it looks in context like a direct dig at me...

I'm sick of all the "If youre not with us you're against us" zealot fukwits...

If however that line is about this girl, not me, then I suggest you should have made that clearer...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 08:35 AM

PFR if I was having a dig at you I would hope I would be far more transparent. I can assure you I was talking solely about the girl and trying to demonstrate that in other jurisdictions her actions would unquestionably have been unlawful, despite all her apologists on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 09:05 AM

Ok then.. just keep in mind I try to remain objective and thinking independently for myself.
I don't follow 'party lines'...
Even if my ideas and conclusions do end up in accord with others...

I don't like this girl,
but I think where practicable, there are good compassionate and pragmatic reasons
to give her and other teens like her a 2nd chance...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 09:24 AM

PFR that idea is all very well Providing a period on incarceration and extensive interrogation establishes no vestigial threat exists. In the light of my post about underage WW1 volunteers I cannot accept jihadi brides were young easily bamboozled idiots led astray. I see it more as cool, calculated betrayal of their adopted country, as would many other countries. That should incur penalties. Then we can consider reintegration into society(perhaps!)

This is likely the pattern of modern asymmetric warfare. It is well past the time we had the correct legal framework to deal with it. To use a definition of treason developed 700 years ago makes a mockery of both Parliament and the Judiciary.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM

Given how many people this is going to happen to, the conditions they are forced to live in and what Assad is likely to do about them, this is quite likely to escalate into a massive humanitarian crisis
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 10:23 AM

"PFR that idea is all very well Providing a period on incarceration and extensive interrogation establishes no vestigial threat exists."

I'm not going to be arsed to read the entire thread again but, from memory, I'm pretty sure that's precisely what those of us whom you persist in insulting by the use of epithets such as 'apologists' and 'the fluffy bunny brigade' have proposed. It's certainly what I suggested in my very first post on this thread....my post of 15 Feb 19 07:52 AM -

"For, I think, the first time ever, I'm in absolute agreement with Jacob "Call Me Jake" Rees-Mogg - she should be admitted to the UK, then thoroughly investigated and subjected to the due process of law. If that involves her being kept in detention during that time, so be it."

I won't hold my breath for you to apologise for insulting those with whom you now appear to agree - you have neither the grace nor the balls.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 12:30 PM

Senoufou, you might find the strategies described here of interest:

I'm listen"The roots of extremism, with Deeyah Khan," on The Ezra Klein Show with @TuneIn.

http://tun.in/ti0LDQ

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM

If anything I have slightly hardened my position. UK law does not acknowledge her defection to Isis is by itself a crime. I would argue it should be. She should be both punished and incarcerated until it is established she poses no threat.

There are those that argue:
she has been groomed, trafficked and horribly abused

She is brainwashed. She was an immature teen when she went. She has lived for years amongst extremists


She was a child when she left and is not yet out of her teens.

etc etc

There are some here who are saying "they were just kids" and are the same people who were campaigning for the referendum voting age to be lowered to 16 on the grounds that people of that age are perfectly capable of exercising mature judgement.

The fluffy bunnies are those that seek excuses and refuse to acknowledge the crime. You backwoodsman have never been among their number on this thread.

I do not think that saying coochie, coochie coo and handing out a giro is really going to hack it!r

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 01:37 PM

Iains - how far back did I say I'd agree in principle with well run humane [remote island ?] internment camps...???

All practical and financial complexities aside...

Surely it's better for European countries to take back their own citizens,
and hold them in constructive guarded quarantine for as long as necessary
- splitting them up and spreading them round in smaller controlable units.
Than having them all concentrated in one festering mega camp where they continue to be uncontrolled and further radicalised...

The small children in this squalid camp are tomorrow's bitter fanatical terrorists...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 02:51 PM

PFR Those that are offspring of recent immigrants should realise that with citizenship comes responsibility. By joining our enemies are they not rejecting the citizenship we offer? Stripping citizenship from a few such people sends a very strong message to those that may wish to follow. There are no quikfixes. Each measured response has an upside and downside. What message is required to be sent and what is the best means of transmission? The unfortunate death of the child reduces the complexity of possible solutions but makes them no easier. The fact many are incarcerated in a warzone is a fault of their own creation. The war in Syria and Iraq has been largely driven by Isis for the last couple of years at least. What justification can be offered to risk additional lives in order to extract them from a hell they were instrumental in creating? Repatriating the millions of refugees would be a far more noble effort in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 03:03 PM

Iains - What's the most expedient answer then - evacuate the camp humanitarian workers
and then drop a MOAB on it...!!!???




Bonz.. curb your excitement.. I'm not being serious...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 03:37 PM

No excitement - I'm just pondering the fortnightly slog of putting out recycling from behind our garage for tomorrow morning's collection, for which car in garage must first be removed then put back !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 03:44 PM

On our street, I have to keep early morning vigil to stop the bins being nicked...

oh.. the stresses of living in the developed Western world....

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 03:55 PM

It is blowing a hoolie where I am. Severe gale 9.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 04:37 PM

I don't suppose Assad is generous with mosquito nets in the Syrian camps, so one can only assume that there must be millions of mosquitoes needlesly dying of AIDS!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:57 PM

"The unfortunate death of the child reduces the complexity of possible solutions..."

Christ on a bloody bike.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 06:00 PM

The camp of the young lady in question is I believe in the Kurdish enclave in the NE. President Assad has yet to reclaim that area.of his country. The malaria risk is low. There is probably a higher risk of
Leishmaniasis from sandflies. In the time I worked in Syria I heard no mention of malaria, unlike Angola and a lot of tropical West Africa, where not taking antimalarials could pose a real hazard.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 04:06 AM

Most bizarre that a self proclaimed atheist feels the need to introduce "Christ on a bike" to make some kind of statement. After all Merriam Webster clearly defines atheist as a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 08:21 AM

Most bizarre that someone who constantly quotes the Christian Gospel shows not a shred of Christian charity and humanity in his postings concerning a teenager who has just lost her recently born child
What we've cone to expect, I suppose
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 09:16 AM

That's it, Jim. But don't forget how the "unfortunate" deaths of children make "solutions" simpler...

Sounds like an echo of something else from long ago, doesn't it...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 09:24 AM

Yup certainly does - it's called having your cake and eating it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:04 AM

Good to see even the Guardian talks some sense,unlike the quaint, lefty cuckoo land the 2 posters above live in.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck..........!

In October 2016 in Morocco, 10 women were arrested for plotting a suicide attack during parliamentary elections, four of which had seemingly married Isis members in Iraq and Syria over the internet.
Last year, British security services foiled a terror attack on the British Museum in London, and the country’s first all-female terror cell linked to Isis was arrested and convicted this year. Safaa Boular, a British teenager who went on to marry an Isis fighter online, was part-radicalised by a female Australian national in Syria. and on and on!


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/23/number-of-women-and-children-joining-isis-significantly-underestimated

Their patently false outrage is getting a tad wearing doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:43 AM

Onwarr Christian soldiers seems appropriate

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 06:20 PM

Europe, particularly Germany and the Nordic countries, has taken hundreds of thousands of Syrians and various ME refugees in an unprecedented resettlement effort. Turkey and Lebanon have sizable resettlement camps. I think the UK and US have some latitude in accepting the odd lot while not forgetting that a legal precedent will be established.
One thing that is being willfully ignored is that the means exist of technologically monitoring an awful lot of people awful closely. Maybe we don't want or deserve it for ourselves, but if I was a refugee with honest intentions I'd welcome it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 06:27 PM

Ms Begum is not a potential refugee. We can discuss refugee policies too, but there is a fundamental distinction to be made in her case, as well as of others in a similar predicament, and real refugees.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 06:36 PM

An observation worth repeating and further reinforcing yet again:.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:15 PM

"Now you have clarified who you were insulting, you may perhaps find a reckoning in a more public forum forthcoming."

Eleven minutes later from the same poster:

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM

"Backward man you are a tad behind the curve."

And then, same poster:

"Not only besandled and besotted but also oblivious"

Earlier, same poster again:

"I fink you mean fox dear boy. Having your sheepdogs feast on lamb is a proven unsuccessful business model. But finance is hardly your strong point, having suckled on the public teat all your life.Twould seem for all your years in the countryside you have learnt precious little."

And now:

From: Iains - PM
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:04 AM

"Good to see even the Guardian talks some sense, unlike the quaint, lefty cuckoo land the 2 posters above live in.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck..........!"

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 10:30 AM

"quaint, lefty cuckoo land the 2 posters above live in"

Excellent observation Iains!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 10:57 AM

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/britain-strips-two-more-isil-brides-of-citizenship-37896852.html

"The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has consistently advised against travel to Syria since April 2011."

Conservative Party chairman Brandon Lewis defended Mr Javid, telling Today: "There is no question that the duty of a home secretary in this country is to keep British people safe."

65,000,000/3
The argument in a nutshell, apart from those blinded by ideology and a penchant for rose tinted glasses.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:18 AM

Iains - so where should British and other European IS fighters / camp followers stay, or be dispersed to...???

Which other nation's problems should they be...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 01:21 PM

PFR I am sure the countries that have them would be quite taken with the idea of punishing those invaders that have aided and abetted the destruction of their countries. They can request the UN authorize the subsequent billing for board and lodging to the respective countries of origin of their prisoners. I am sure there would be innumerable countries around the world that would vote to support such an idea, as many have score to settle with western countries that have been meddling in their internal affairs for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:18 PM

Before they are allowed into our countries they may be willing to provide information and answer question. For instance, I'd like to know if the ISIS bride beat her slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 02:59 PM

Why should they go anywhere, the European adults who went to fight for isis? Let'm stay where they chose to be.

The children who chose to go there are a different story. But the grownups?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:05 PM

On the radio this morning there was an article about a Yazidi trying to ransom back Yazidi captives. The ISIS 'fighters' were passing them around to each other and arguing prices: The eleven year old was not worth as much because she was no longer a virgin.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:24 PM

The treatment of Yazidis, otherwise known as genocide.


https://www.nazandbegikhani.com/info/why-isis-s-treatment-of-yazidi-women-must-be-treated-as-genocide-630.html
The above is an illustration of what wannabe returning jihadis are capable of.

Incarcerate,punish if required, free only after being subjected to successful intensive de radicalization programs. Far better such a process is carried out in their country of capture, where more robust measures exist to deal with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:28 PM

Maybe my sardonic suggestion about dropping a few surprise MOABs on the squalid ISIS prison camps
aint too far from what some folks would genuinely desire as a solution...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 09:31 AM

Was it not a response to mythical MOABS created most of this mess? And American oil being in the wrong countries!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 10:08 AM

My post last night was made before i turned on the BBC news reports on Christchurch...

The global extreme right does not distinguish betwen 'good [peacful]' and 'bad [isis]' muslims...

Everyday my youtube home page becomes increasingly swamped with far right propaganda channels - like it's now the acceptable norm...

..from the nutcase conspiracy theorists to the blatantly sinister...

[American owned Ai viewing algorithms seem to have a natural trend towards the far right...???]

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 03:59 PM

PFR there are extremes on all sides. And they have in common their definition of the problem (someone else) and their solution (kill them and terrify the rest).

The important thing to keep in mind is to "keep calm and carry on" and to know that the extremists are losers who WILL LOSE.

The problem is to minimized the damage in lives and time lost.

It reminds me of an old poster that used to hang in my engineering class: "For every complicated problem there is a simple solution. . .




. . .and it's wrong."

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mossback
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 10:22 PM

PFR there are extremes on all sides.

And how many persons have been killed in the last decade by left-wing terrorists, pray?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:29 AM

"the last decade by left-wing terrorists, pray?"
How many ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:09 AM

Here is a starter for 10!
https://listverse.com/2016/10/01/10-left-wing-terrorist-organizations-from-around-the-world/
I imagine the security forces keep a close tab on corbyn and his little mates as well.
It will be a glorious sunny fdaty when outfits like Unite and Momentum are proscribed. After all Unite cannot be both a rabid political organisation and also act for the best interests of the members of Amicus and the Transport and General Workers' Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:24 AM

And how many persons have been killed in the last decade by left-wing terrorists, pray?

None as far as I can see. There was certainly left wing atrocities going back to Stalin's time and the 60's spawned a lot of Che Guevara wannabes but the last decade? Nah. In fact I would extend that to 20 years of more. Looks like religious fundamentalists and right wing nutters have the monopoly on terrorism now.

It seems that the far right want to tar the left as ineffective, sandal wearing, bearded weirdos and rabid militant terrorists at the same time. Provides hours of entertainment watching the Daily Heil readers trying to square that particular circle.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:37 AM

"None as far as I can see."
Virtually none as Iain's list shows - most of them are defunct and have been since the eighties - forty years ago
The current threat of terrorism is overwhelmingly that of thee right - based on the racist genii Brexit let out of the bottle
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:00 AM

Nice to see the moronic right are now lumping in Momentum with terrorist organisations, the man who passed around the Poor, misunderstood Tommy Robinson petition
Really out of the closet as to the right's future dreams now
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 09:30 AM

A GENTLE REMINDER #]
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:44 AM

the man who passed around the Poor, misunderstood Tommy Robinson petition


amd asking the resident anglophobe to substantiate his statement is on a par with p****ng in the wind.

Read a post, misunderstand it, fire off a response without thinking or checking and bleat when he has a less than complimentary response. How many threads does little jimmie have the same accusations leveled at him, both above and below the line. A myriad even in the last week.
Idiot !

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:57 AM

Are you saying you didn't pass around the Tommy Robinson petition ?
Your abuse nature is comign to teh fore again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 01:02 PM

what.. is there a petition demanding poor little Tommy Robinson
refrains from talking like a paranoid pillock, stays quietly out the limelight, and stops acting like a victim...???

where do we sign...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 06:31 PM

An interesting progression in the case of the jihadi bride.
Apparently her ISIS followers grassed her and the Prime Minister and Home Secretary have been briefed by the intelligence services about claims that British-born Ms Begum was witnessed preparing suicide vests for would-be martyrs – sewing them on to the bombers so that the devices could not be removed without detonation.

Obviously not quite the little innocent she was painted to be, though she fooled many posting here!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 07:03 PM

Considered opinion* is that should make her even more valuable
for vigorous debreifing
by security services back here in the UK...


{* slightly more credible than half wit knee jerk opinion...???]

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 06:05 AM

Does vigorous include waterboarding and other such delights?

In a ranking of credibility how does it compare with mainstream news stories about Trump and Assage?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 06:31 AM

This pursuit of a young person who took the decision she did when she was legally a child verges on Child abuse - no stranger to PAST MEMBERS OF OUR ESTABLISHMENT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 06:45 AM

The age of criminal responsibility in the UK is 10 years. She started her life of crime at age 15 and can be treated as an adult from age 18.

Your argument is both fatuous and vacuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 07:06 AM

Stop pursuing children - there's a name for that sort of thing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 07:15 AM

Just a reminder that in this country we don't call people criminals until they have been tried and found guilty of crimes.

What was that line in Andy Irvine's song about Sacco and Vanzetti: "They're reds and what more do you need..."

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 07:30 AM

In many jurisdictions simply joining ISIS is a criminal act. Revocation of citizenship is also because of criminality. The burden of proof was obviously sufficient for the authorities to make that decision. That is good enough for me,in this instance.



Stop pursuing children - there's a name for that sort of thing

Oh dear???????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 07:51 AM

"Just a reminder that in this country we don't call people criminals until they have been tried and found guilty of crimes. "
And only barbaric regimes of the type Britain is in danger of becoming ignore the age and circumstances of those they try (or in this case, refuse to try)
Now the defenders of this atrocity is comparing Britain to other countries - whataboutism is always a good sign that they have no decent answer to this State atrocity
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 08:18 AM

Because of defeats in the courts, in 2014 an amendment changed Section 40 of the 1981 British Nationality Act to introduce a new power for the home secretary to cancel the citizenship of single nationality holders even at the risk of creating a stateless person. This was specifically tailored to fit the UK’s obligations under international law, and can only take place for conduct that is deemed seriously prejudicial to national interests.

I think we can be sure that the authorities know far more about the background of the person than we do. As all the lefties argue politicians know better than the little people the squawking over this particular case rings a tad hollow. Can I rent you a brand new bandwagon to jump on, the present one looks a little tawdry.

Even for jimmies love of provocative statements, to declare it an atrocity is simply stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 08:47 AM

Another raw nerve it would appear

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 09:30 AM

Don't engage with him at all, Jim. You can see from the brexit thread that he's being monitored. Make the mods' job easier by ignoring him.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 09:43 AM

"Don't engage with him at all, Jim"
Sorry - couldn't resist Steve - easy meat
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 10:05 AM

I merely put forward the view of the responsible authorities. To try to say it is a raw nerve merely demonstrates the paucity of your argument.
To claim that someone that allegedly knitted bodywarmers for suicide bombers is the subject of child abuse make me wonder just what vestigial contact with reality you still have. I suspect even you must have a problem believing some of your more asinine statements. Therefore I conclude you only post in order to sow discord and play the little innocent victim when your more ridiculous assertions are robustly rejected. I am surprised more do not recognize your transparent little ruse. It really gets tiresome.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 10:16 AM

Shhhh...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 10:24 AM

I think what pisses me off most about middle class intellectuals is their partisanship.

When i was a teacher in the ineer ring of Brum, I saw lots of kids sucked into a life of crime and ....prison, unemployment...and really no one had any sympathy for them. they were working class kids, often without the influence and exampleof a father, who went out to work.

And then came the drugs....do the middle classes not see any connection between the coke they sniff, the pills their kids pop...and those kids with knives that are regarded as feral vermin by the middle class commentators?

And look at how how the disadvantaged kids responsible for the jamie Bulger murder would have been lynched by a howling mob. And no great care seems to have taken over their rehabilitation.

And yet this young lady. she seems to have won your hearts.....poor dear, groomed to join a gang of international murderers, torturers, severed heads - just part of the furniture, probably belonging to no one important......

you left wingers don't seem very left wing to me. .

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 10:38 AM

I suppose on reflection what I mean is that we all know teachers, shopkeepers,   policemen, soldiers...young kids playing football on a carpark like that kid in manchester. We all know people like that. We don't want to see a threat to them.

Whereas this young lady took a gap year to join a gang murdering people that we don't know, and we don't know abpout their lives.

So we feel different.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 10:58 AM

"Mr Fox; Join Us in the Song "
Not sure who your "middle class intellectuals" is aimed at Al
I'm a retired electrician who was taught to respect all forms of human life with all its failings
This young woman became a victim of a policy of ignoring the acts of a mass murderer until his crimes became too obvious to ignore
Even when they did, our Government chose to do nothing about them, so thousands of young Muslims stepped into the gap that western policy created
There is no agreed definition of a Jihadist - it is a religious term which has nothing whatever to do with terrorism, but has become such through deliberate misuse
Britain's hands have been soaked in Syrian blood since Assad came to [power - they were fully aware of the mass murder and torture that was taking place, yet the regime remained our ally to the extent that we licenced much of the equipment that was used against peaceful protesters demanding the end to poverty and persecution, not just in Syria but in the rest of the Arab world
Cameron launched a massive arms fair a week after the Arab Spring protests started
I see great parallels between the inhman manner in which this girl is being treated and how my father was treated when he came back from fighting fascism in Spain
The West's inaction helped empower Isis, now its victims are exiled to live in squalor - they incluce both the Syrian refugees who will be refused entry to Britain when/if Brexit is settled, and those who went off to take up the fight that Britain should have waged
Those who did this have shamed Britain
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 10:58 AM

"Mr Fox; Join Us in the Song "
Not sure who your "middle class intellectuals" is aimed at Al
I'm a retired electrician who was taught to respect all forms of human life with all its failings
This young woman became a victim of a policy of ignoring the acts of a mass murderer until his crimes became too obvious to ignore
Even when they did, our Government chose to do nothing about them, so thousands of young Muslims stepped into the gap that western policy created
There is no agreed definition of a Jihadist - it is a religious term which has nothing whatever to do with terrorism, but has become such through deliberate misuse
Britain's hands have been soaked in Syrian blood since Assad came to [power - they were fully aware of the mass murder and torture that was taking place, yet the regime remained our ally to the extent that we licenced much of the equipment that was used against peaceful protesters demanding the end to poverty and persecution, not just in Syria but in the rest of the Arab world
Cameron launched a massive arms fair a week after the Arab Spring protests started
I see great parallels between the inhman manner in which this girl is being treated and how my father was treated when he came back from fighting fascism in Spain
The West's inaction helped empower Isis, now its victims are exiled to live in squalor - they incluce both the Syrian refugees who will be refused entry to Britain when/if Brexit is settled, and those who went off to take up the fight that Britain should have waged
Those who did this have shamed Britain
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 11:16 AM

""Mr Fox; Join Us in the Song ""
Sorry 'bout that
Thought I'd scanned in Al's words - copied down something from the abum digitisation 'm doing (hope nobody thinks I like 'Mr Fox')
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 11:30 AM

well if thats your stated belief that the people who joined ISIS are to be honoured in the way that honour the memory of the International Brigade. I guess that's your opinion and your entitled to it.

I persoanlly doen't really feel like that. Still its your opinion and you are of course entitled to it. And we should respect your right to that opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 12:44 PM

"well if thats your stated belief that the people who joined ISIS are to be honoured in the way that honour the memory of the International Brigade"
That's not what I said Al
I said they should not be criminalised - both were
I've given my reasons; you would make your case far better if you addressed what I said rather than putting up what I didn't mean

Assad is the West's self-created monster; criminalising the actions of people who tried to do something about him (for whatever reason) doesn't alter that fact one iota
What should have happened - should nobody have lifted a hand while Assad's thugs publicly massacred his people - that was what was happening ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 01:35 PM

The other thing, Al, is that the reported involvement in helping with suicide vests etc. is all weasel words. Things like 'witnesses claim' and 'intelligence sources told this newspaper they have been informed'. No actual facts in evidence at all. If you feel like believing the MSM, feel free but don't expect anyone to take you seriously if you do.

I am not at all sure about your claim that it is only 'middle class intellectuals who feel compassion for this girl. Are you trying to tell us that the working class are not intellectual or that they are unfeeling Daily Heil zombies?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 01:57 PM

'should nobody have lifted a hand while Assad's thugs publicly massacred his people - that was what was happenin'

Well the International Brigade and the factions opposing Franco probably didn't have completely clean sheet. Its not really in the nature of war that either side is free from the taint of atrocities.

it sounds to me as though you are grouping them together as comparable.

either that or you are proposing something far more complicated than i have understood.

in that part of the world its a close call who is the most corrupt.....that's the reality of the choices our leaders have to make. if you think we should be backing ISIS, all I can say is that's your right. Its not my opinion however.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 02:12 PM

no Dave, I think I'm I'm saying its easier to feel indulgent about murderous acts that don't happen on your doorstep.

I don't think she'd been groomed any more than West Indian kids who'd listened to Bob Marley and others advising them to smoke the hern, thus criminalising them. Some of the kids I taught ended up doing life sentences, with no public sympathy.

I'm saying public sympathy is VERY selective, and class based. Islamophobia is one of the current buzzwords amongst the left.

maybe the sight of severed heads should have phased her - ever so slightly at least. Maybe if one of those heads belonged to a member of your friends or family, you might see what i was saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 02:21 PM

I'm a bit of an old fashioned working class lefty...
and emotionally I'm completely indifferent to this girl
[well the mrs says I can be a heartless bastard..].
In fact I find her detestable..

But even if the extent of my compassion for her is minimal to say the least,
I do have sufficient intelligence to accept rational reasons
why she should be brought back home for questioning, trial and sentence....
Hopefully leading in the longer term to her reasonable rehabilitation in mainstream UK society...

So that's where I fit in the spectrum between lovers and haters of this girl..

I don't think my views on this issue are that uncommon...???

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 02:23 PM

There are no gap years at the age of 15. No-one here is singing the praises of Isis, Al, not even remotely. What we are saying is that we try to have some faith in our justice system and the rule of law. That means not calling our citizens criminals before they've been properly investigated, real evidence collected (not weaselly hearsay), trials held and convictions obtained. There's nothing softie-leftie about that. Just a desire to avoid lapsing into lynch-mob mentality, Al. By the way, though I wouldn't use it as a qualification, I cut my teeth as a teacher in two of the worst schools in the Black Country, then spent seven years teaching in Poplar and another six in a deprived part of Walthamstow. I'd also say that there are no excuses for people who radicalise young people, but we should seriously ask ourselves whether the inherent racism in our society, Islamophobia in particular, and our support for regimes that repress Muslims, doesn't provide fertile ground for the radicalisers.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 02:36 PM

"Well the International Brigade and the factions opposing Franco probably didn't have completely clean sheet."
So you wouldn't have let them back into Britain after the Civil War then ?
"to feel indulgent about murderous acts that don't happen on your doorstep."
Actually, nobody has suggested she killed anybody - she was barred brom Britain for her being a threat, but hey - what's a few facts between friends ?
Yiu have the rope over the branch despite te fact that there is no way of knowing what she did or why she went
Good ol' British justice
One of the main ourtcries by the authorities when these kids started to go wat that they had been or would be groomed - but you know better of course
Must have been born evil eh ?
Shame on you Al
I wonder how you would have reacted if it had been one of your relatives ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 02:36 PM

"Well the International Brigade and the factions opposing Franco probably didn't have completely clean sheet."
So you wouldn't have let them back into Britain after the Civil War then ?
"to feel indulgent about murderous acts that don't happen on your doorstep."
Actually, nobody has suggested she killed anybody - she was barred brom Britain for her being a threat, but hey - what's a few facts between friends ?
Yiu have the rope over the branch despite te fact that there is no way of knowing what she did or why she went
Good ol' British justice
One of the main ourtcries by the authorities when these kids started to go wat that they had been or would be groomed - but you know better of course
Must have been born evil eh ?
Shame on you Al
I wonder how you would have reacted if it had been one of your relatives ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 02:47 PM

I'll add..

If this girl had been killed in combat,
or an airstrike against isis strongholds - problem solved, no tears shed..

But she survives, she's an inconvenience for our tory government;
despite any intelligence value she may hold for security services,
or any potential future PR value if she could be turned against extemism
and become a more poitive role model for UK muslim youth...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 02:50 PM

"I don't think my views on this issue are that uncommon...???"
II think you're right unfortunate PFR
Very few think in terms of people like her being what they actually are, young, inexperienced human beings
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 03:48 PM

Jim - we can strive to be positive humanists without being all emotionally soppy about it...

..well at least that's my individual personality...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 03:57 PM

well shame on me....I don't feel any shame.

are you saying ISIS didn't do murderous acts?. The vast majority of the people they killed were Muslims. they oppressed muslims bloody sight more than the law in our country would allow or even the worst racists in our society ever could imagine.

let's turn this round why are you so keen to re-admit her into the society she has sworn emnity to? Why do you want to spend public money on her?

Can you really not think of more deserving cases? When she arrives here (as seems almost certain to happen) she's going to be very rich , the book deals are probably lining up as we speak.

I really have a lot of difficulty understanding you Jim. You despise most pro musicians, saying they have have sold out. Even though most of them just scrape a living - you say they have no place in this country's folk culture.

And yet someone who has called us from a pig to a dog. Publiclly disavowed us....joined am organisation who hates our very existence.

Perhaps you are a better Christian than me.    Like the good shepherd in the parable rejoicing after bringing back the one lamb that strayed. Rejoicing at the return of the prodical daughter....who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 05:20 PM

"I don't think my views on this issue are that uncommon...???"
Are you saying this girl did ?
Isis would have remained a bunch of fanatical cranks if the West and the UN had acted against Assad
She is a British citizen and deserves a trial, but lynch mobs don't think that way, do they
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 05:34 PM

Jim - sorry, what..??? have you acidently posted before proof reading...

Me and you are more or less supporting a sensible humane evaluation of this girl's plight and future...

Just I don't get over emotional about it...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:10 AM

"Just I don't get over emotional about it..."
I think this is where we differ
She was little more than a child when she left home - she did so at the time when Assad had fully exposed himself for the monster he really was and Britain (and the rest of the Western World) had refused to do anything about it (Parliament took a vote washing Britain's hands of involvement)
Hundreds of Muslim youngsters began slipping out of Britain to oppose him - immediately they were labeled 'Jihadists', suggesting that they were doing so for religious rather than humanitarian reasons - there is no evidence that this was the case.
Now we have a young woman who has been refused the right to return home and are faced with the situation of many hundreds more British citizens in the same position - exiled for setting off to fight a dictator
I find that quite 'emotional' - every bit as emotional as how The Windrush immigrants were treated, or The Notting Hill Race Riots, or Powell's 'Rivers o Blood' hate speech, or all the other sordid race events that have created a situation where it is now estimated that around one third of the British people hold racist views and have stated them openly
Events lke these are debasing Britain and opening the door to scum like Robinson and Farage, who are now planning to shift us even further to the right - that's a pretty 'emotional' - extremely dangerous situation to be in.

I see spooky parallels with what happened to my family
When they learned from Jewish neighbours what was happening in Nazi Germany, they took to the streets, only to find that Mosley's Blackshirts were being protected by baton-wielding British Bobbys mounted on horses; I'm proud so say, my grandmother was arrested for hitting Mosley with a stone
My dad went to Spain to fight Nazism; wounded, he eventually returned home to find he had been given an MI5 record and had been blacklisted from work (at the time, the Government were still trying to appease Hitler and would be shortly plunged into war with the people my dad was punished for going to fight).
Just as Spain might have been a place where the world might have stood against Hitler, the massacres of Homs could have been a reason why Assad was stopped in his tracks
Neither happened - one gave us a World War, the other gave us Isis
Pretty emotional, as far as I'm concerned
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 04:25 AM

From: Steve Shaw
14 Apr 19 - 02:23 PM

There are no gap years at the age of 15. No-one here is singing the praises of Isis, Al, not even remotely. What we are saying is that we try to have some faith in our justice system and the rule of law. That means not calling our citizens criminals before they've been properly investigated, real evidence collected (not weaselly hearsay), trials held and convictions obtained.

"Having faith in the rule of law" must mean that, as Sajid Javid had the legal right to remove her British citizenship, based on the knowledge that he has of the whole situation, we must accept that.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 04:36 AM

Javid is a Tory clown who did that in a deliberately populist move. Even though he's a clown, you won't catch him saying that she's a criminal until she's been properly tried and convicted via due process. Were he to say that, and she is eventually brought home, he would have fatally prejudiced any chance of a fair trial. And I must say that you appear to put far more faith in the integrity of politicians than I do. Of course, as he's a Tory like you...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 04:51 AM

It's not about having faith in politicians. Your comment was about having faith in the rule of law.
That must mean accepting actions taken by politicians acting within the rule of law. Or do you only have faith in the parts of the rule of law which happen to match your own prejudices?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 04:57 AM

" Your comment was about having faith in the rule of law."
As we say when politicians like Heath got caught with their trousers down, the rule off law is very much a movable feast
How about the rule of humanity Nigel?
Law tends to be for those who can afford it these days
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 05:11 AM

Jim Carroll:
As we say when politicians like Heath got caught with their trousers down, the rule off law is very much a movable feast
What does this relate to? I know you dislike the Conservatives as a matter of principle, but this looks very much like a libellous comment about an ex Prime Minister.
It is very easy to "speak ill of the dead" when they cannot protect themselves.

Law tends to be for those who can afford it these days
Yes, that is why Shamima Begum's family are trying to get Legal Aid to fight for reinstatement of her citizenship. Legal Aid reduces the advantages of the rich over the poor in obtaining equal treatment under the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 05:15 AM

Well as several of you seem to feel some empathy for the lady - let's hope your judgement is proved sound.

I'm obviously outvoted. i accept the democratic majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 05:27 AM

I have no empathy with her whatsoever. I cannot possibly understand or feel what she is going through. I do however have some sympathy for her plight and, unlike some on here, I do not think she brought it all on herself. I do not think she is entirely blameless either and I would not, as some have suggested, welcome her with open arms. I do however believe she deserves a fair hearing rather than trial by media and a lynch mob.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 05:36 AM

"Yes, that is why Shamima Begum's family are trying to get Legal Aid to fight for reinstatement of her citizenship"
They shouldn't have to Nigel - being exiled for a crime committed when the girl was a cild is abuse of human rights - an act of gross inhumanity
The Killers of Jamie Bulger were treated with more decency
This is a political act which has nothing to do with natural justice
You people are shaming Britain - as you have over Brexit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 09:57 AM

I disagree with you.

Over the Bulger case, you are provably wrong.

The justice system seems to think it is morally better in its treatment of young pewople by not executing them And no further effort is required or deserved. if you knew the situation, you would know the meaning of shame.

However you are entitled to your opinions - no matter how mistaken.

Now leave me to mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 11:17 AM

Jim - yes we are more often in agreement, and have nothing to gain by falling out over minor differences...

You and me probably have disimilar temperaments...
We can stand together side by side on issues,
but I am maybe more like Spock to your Captain Kirk...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 11:21 AM

DtG - "15 Apr 19 - 05:27 AM" - well said..

Right wingers hold to a stupid arrogant presumption that only they are level headed realists,
while the left are a bunch of bleeding heart snowflakes...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 11:35 AM

She emigrated. The UK is no longer her home. Home is where she is.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 11:37 AM

”I have no empathy with her whatsoever. I cannot possibly understand or feel what she is going through. I do however have some sympathy for her plight and, unlike some on here, I do not think she brought it all on herself. I do not think she is entirely blameless either and I would not, as some have suggested, welcome her with open arms. I do however believe she deserves a fair hearing rather than trial by media and a lynch mob.”

My sentiments exactly.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 11:38 AM

Thanks, PFR. There is also the "if you are not for us you are against us" mentality. If I say I have sympathy for the girl I get lambasted by some who suggest that I should let her live in my house and murder my children. They would far rather try to win points than show any compasdion. I suppose I should feel sorry for them too. But I'm afraid I don't!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 11:41 AM

Emigration doesn’t change a person’s Nationality, Mrrzy. My BiL and SiL emigrated to Canada and took Canadian citizenship. Their home is in Ontario. They are still British, however, and are entitled to the protections and benefits that their British Nationality confers on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 11:42 AM

Bulger's killers were detained and received treatment, as was only proper for children of that age - no civilized society executes children - or anybody
If you don't accept this, go make a list of innocent people who would have been executed - you can put The Birmingham Six at the top
The Bulger murder took place in my home town of Kirkby and I know damn well that some people would have string those kids up from the nearest lamp-post had they laid hands on them

Beside my point anyway - this young woman has committed no crime and even if she had, she would be entitled to a trial
THis is a political decision made by a State that, by acting as armourer for the world's most despotic regimes, is implicated in more killing of innocents - by proxy - than Isis ever was

"but I am maybe more like Spock to your Captain Kirk...?????"
Don'cha mean Lister and Kryren, whack ??
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 12:22 PM

Jim - for a moment there I thought they were Liverpool footballers, until I googled...

I don't do football, or non British stiff upper lip emotions...
must be the grammar school conditioning in me..

Actually I have qualities and character that would make me a pretty good working class far right winger
[no.. not football..]...

.. just shows the diffence good parenting, edcation, and social factors make to a persons adult outcome..
[nature v nurture and all that...]

Oh well.. ukips loss is your gain...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 12:23 PM

?Shamima Begum, the east London schoolgirl who fled to Syria, served in the Islamic State's "morality police" and also tried to recruit other young women to join the jihadist group, well-placed sources have told The Sunday Telegraph.

She was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle and earned a reputation as a strict "enforcer" of Isis's laws, such as women's dress codes, sources claimed.

The claims are at odds with Begum's own account of her years with the group, which she joined at age 15.

Begum, now aged 19, has insisted she was never involved in Isis's brutality but spent her time in Syria as a devoted housewife to a jihadist.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/112024668/uk-teen-shamima-begum-was-in-isiss-allfemale-police-squad

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mossback
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 12:48 PM

And Aghiad AL Kheder's sources are........?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:04 PM

"Aghiad AL Kheder"
A long-term Islamophobic blogger - his sources are "unnamed Syrians"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 04:44 PM

And bobad denies that Palestinians actually exist. So much for balance...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 04:50 PM

Another one best avoided completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:22 PM

And bobad denies that Palestinians actually exist.

If by "Palestinians" you mean those peoples who lived in the former kingdom of Judah which was conquered and renamed "Palestina" by the Romans in the second century CE I don't deny that at all. As a matter of fact my wife's family were "Palestinians" as attested to by their passports, as were all the citizens who inhabited the area, be they Christians, Muslims, Druze or Jews. That geographic area is now known as Israel and Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 08:42 PM

Anyway... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mossback
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 09:51 PM

Almost makes ya nostalgic for Bruce's diatribes, dunnit?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 02:13 AM

God forbid!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 03:50 AM

Whatever the 'crimes' of this young woman, she is entitled to return home to face trial
I doubt if any justice system would, or could arrive at a decision to exile this or any British-born woman, even if she were found guilty - this is a sentence imposed on her by politicians - surely that is an abuse of her rights of as a citizen ?
It does not auger well for the future of British justice when politicians who have naused up the future of Britain with their incompetence ans indecision can take the law into their own hands in this way - maybe they'll start exiling those who want to stay in the E.U., or anybody who votes for Corbyn !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:01 AM

Whatever the 'crimes' of this young woman, she is entitled to return home to face trial
I doubt if any justice system would, or could arrive at a decision to exile this or any British-born woman, even if she were found guilty - this is a sentence imposed on her by politicians - surely that is an abuse of her rights of as a citizen ?
This country has not exiled Shamima Begum. She took herself into exile. She chose to travel to a country in which the Foreign Office was already making clear there would be no consular support available.
If she were able to travel to the UK, and present herself at customs it is possible that she would be taken into custody, and then dealt with under UK law processes. But having placed herself beyond consular help I see no reason that the UK should be responsible for going out to get her.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:50 AM

"She took herself into exile."
She mot certainly did not - refusing to allow her to return from a war she volunteered to fight (a war that the West should have taken part in) is driving her into exile
If she returned tomorrow she would be refused entry - a British citizen exiled without even the decency of a trial
Bloody outrageous
Your lack of humanity and a sense of justice disgraces you as it has Britain
It makes me wonder what my position would be if ever I decided to return to Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:53 AM

She did not ask or expect "consular support" - she is now demanding her right as a British citizen to return
I ahve little doubt that members of her community would raise the necessary cash for her return if they were forced to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 09:35 AM

She did not ask or expect "consular support" - she is now demanding her right as a British citizen to return

You obviously didn't read my response: If she were able to travel to the UK, and present herself at customs it is possible that she would be taken into custody, and then dealt with under UK law processes.

Your lack of humanity and a sense of justice disgraces you as it has Britain
My 'sense of justice' is somewhat old-fashioned. She has made her bed, let her lie in it.
And before you go on about her being only a child (15) when she went out, she has grown several years since then, and could have tried to return at any time. She has chosen to try only once it appears certain that she joined a losing cause.
There are many causes more worthy of my sympathy than this self-publicist who is suffering the results of the choices she freely made. If she travelled out under her sister's passport, surely this makes it clear that she should have known that what she was doing would be considered as wrong by many people, and by the law of the land.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 09:58 AM

" If she were able to travel to the UK, and present herself at customs it is possible that she would be taken into custody, "
Ther is no indication of that a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/19/isis-briton-shamima-begum-to-have-uk-citizenship-revoked">AS YOU WELL KNOW
Your support for this is despicable
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 10:04 AM

This should have gone up
AS YOU WELL KNOW
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 11:45 AM

Perhaps you could get Jonathan King to write you a protest song.....

Headchoppers Anonymous

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 12:12 PM

Errrrmmm, that was the band, Al. The song was ‘It’s Good News Week’! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 02:23 PM

Everybody must get stoned (but only in a nurturing way)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 02:26 PM

Nice to see your heart's in the right place Al
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 02:44 PM

Right, let's remember it is still possible for lefty liberals to objectively criticise aspects of the muslim religion
without being branded islamophobic...


.. or.. well it should be...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9rTbh4a57o&list=PLbttUTp0Qg337v9gbEoGbFcK832bJGZD6&index=2&t=0s

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 01:42 PM

Australia has revoked the citizenship of five people who traveled to Iraq and Syria to join Islamic State, bringing the total number of people stripped of their citizenship to six.
Changes to the Australian Citizenship Act passed that year(216) automatically revoke a person’s citizenship if they engage in terrorism-related conduct, including those who are in the service of a declared terrorist organization overseas.

Danish government reaches agreement to revoke passports of Isis fighters

Danish government reaches agreement to revoke passports of Isis fighters

The government and Danish People’s Party (DF) have agreed new rules that will enable authorities to withdraw passports from individuals found to have fought for militant groups abroad.

The new rules will provide for an administrative process that will enable passports to be revoked without going through the courts, the Ministry of Immigration and Integration announced.

Immigration minister Inger Støjberg said in a statement that she was “very

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 02:06 PM

I will try this a second time. For some peculiar reason the original did not post correctly.
It is not just the UK discussing the revocation of citizenship of those who have joined Isis. In fact it appears a popular procedure.

Australia has revoked the citizenship of five people who traveled to Iraq and Syria to join Islamic State, bringing the total number of people stripped of their citizenship to six.
Changes to the Australian Citizenship Act passed that year(216) automatically revoke a person’s citizenship if they engage in terrorism-related conduct, including those who are in the service of a declared terrorist organization overseas.

Danish government reaches agreement to revoke passports of Isis fighters
The new rules will provide for an administrative process that will enable passports to be revoked without going through the courts, the Ministry of Immigration and Integration announced.

Switzerland wants to strip ISIS fighter of passport.The Swiss justice minister on Monday confirmed that the country was looking at revoking the passport of a Swiss citizen who fought for the so-called Islamic State (ISIS).

       Germany already strips anyone of citizenship who joins a foreign army. Since 1999, a German who joins the armed forces “or similar armed organisation” of another state without the permission of the German defence ministry forfeits their German passport.

       France has been embroiled in a similar debate. Three years ago, François Hollande, the previous president, abandoned a constitutional bill that would have allowed dual nationals convicted of terrorist acts to be stripped of French citizenship after he failed to win sufficient support in parliament. But rightwing politicians have continued to demand such a step.

And to add some balance it must be quoted:
A day after Corbyn said ISIS bride should be let back into UK...Labour's John McDonnell once called for anyone who fought for Israel to be stripped of their British citizenship

    John McDonnell wrote to Theresa May in 2014 about Britons fighting for Israel
    He said: 'Will you be warning any British citizens considering engagement with the IDF that such engagement may put their British citizenship in jeopardy?'
    Yet Labour leader says ISIS bride Shamima Begum has 'right to return' to Britain   !!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 02:14 PM

"Right, let's remember it is still possible for lefty liberals to objectively criticise aspects of the muslim religion
without being branded islamophobic..."
Of course it is - any unchecked religion with too much power is capable of the most horrific crimes - still reeling from the scandal of Clerical rape, Ireland has now opened anothetr major can of worms over the treatment of single pregnant women and their children - it is revealed that one home buried up to 900 children in unmarked graves without valid registration of their deaths - nobody knows where they are buried and it is suggested others may have been sold to rich Americans
This is to do with the interpretation and misuse of religion rather than the relgion itself
The same is the case with any religion
None of which has anything to do with depriving young British citizens of their citezenship/human rights
It appears, to some, that this is fine if you can produce examples of other countries doing the same
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 04:22 PM

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 10:04 AM
This should have gone up
AS YOU WELL KNOW
Jim Carroll

That starts from the false assumption that I read The Guardian.
So, No, I don't know what has been printed by that paper. Nor do I particularly want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 06:13 PM

The thing is Jim, I think you may be buggering up Corbyn's plans.

Whilst England is lining up to vote for him, and replsce a truly unpopular PM, I get the impression JC is quietly crapping himself at thought of actually having to do anything. So he keeps coming up with all these soundbytes.

Please stop trying to convince people he's serious - otherwise the tories will win again.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 06:13 PM

The thing is Jim, I think you may be buggering up Corbyn's plans.

Whilst England is lining up to vote for him, and replsce a truly unpopular PM, I get the impression JC is quietly crapping himself at thought of actually having to do anything. So he keeps coming up with all these soundbytes.

Please stop trying to convince people he's serious - otherwise the tories will win again.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 06:19 PM

None of which has anything to do with depriving young British citizens of their citezenship/human rights
It appears, to some, that this is fine if you can produce examples of other countries doing the same

However the Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill was given Royal Assent in February.
This bill puts a very different slant on the above

The main provisions included in the act are:

1)   a new power to stop, question, search and detain an individual at a port or border area to determine whether they are, or have been, involved in hostile state activity
2)    creating an offence of entering or remaining in an area outside the United Kingdom that has been designated by the Home Secretary if it is necessary for protecting the public from terrorism
3)   updating the offence of obtaining information likely to be useful to a terrorist to cover material that is only viewed or streamed, rather than downloaded to form a permanent record
4)   an increase to the maximum penalty for certain preparatory terrorism offences to 15 years’ imprisonment
5)   extending the offence of inviting support for a proscribed organisation
6) a requirement for terrorist offenders to provide additional information to the police in line with what registered sex offenders must provide

Simply having been in Syria can now be construed as a criminal activity if a UK citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 08:07 PM

"That starts from the false assumption that I read The Guardian.
So, No, I don't know what has been printed by that paper. Nor do I particularly want to."

Hah. Just as we suspected, Nigel. You are an aficionado of confirmation bias. I read the Guardian. But I also read the Mail. It's a nose-holding exercise, but I regard the exercise as essential. I suppose it would be pointless to apprise you of the fact that the Guardian, unlike the Mail and it's fellow-travelling right-wing tabloids, fearlessly embraces opinion from the whole range of the political spectrum in its opinion pieces. Do take a look some time.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 08:46 PM

It's should be its. Bloody spellchecker cobblers.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 08:54 PM

Hah. Just as we suspected, Nigel. You are an aficionado of confirmation bias.
I don't know how you can assume that from the fact that I don't read the Guardian. But I do read news from numerous, divergent, sources (NOT including the Daily Mail).

There is a lot of confirmation bias on this site, mainly from those who seem to act as a pack to shout down anyone who appears to oppose what they think is a true understanding.

Leavers don't automatically assume the worst of those in favour of remain. But remainers are quick to claim that anyone supporting Leave is either ignorant, racist, or protecting their own financial interests. That is despite the fact that in doing so they are bracketing more than half of the voting public with those terms.

"First cast out the beam from thine own eye"

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 09:26 PM

"But remainers are quick to claim that anyone supporting Leave is either ignorant, racist, or protecting their own financial interests. "


No we don't - some [most ?] of us make a point of not doing that
as it's such a crude gereralisation and so obviously wrong to do so,
Doing that can only cause unhelpful conflict.

We may disagree with the decision many leavers made based on cynical false claims and disinformation,
but accept they did it for what they believed at the time were positive reasons for the benefit of us all..
It's clear many now regret that decision.
We are all in this shitship together...

I'd suggest an objective survey of online activity would prove that most of the negative comment,
insults, and sheer lies arise from the worst belligerent bullying brexiteers...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:46 AM

"The thing is Jim, I think you may be buggering up Corbyn's plans."
If Corbyn puts his own party before the well-being of a young woman forced to live in a refugee camp, he doesn't get my support - I hope that is not the case
"That starts from the false assumption that I read The Guardian."
I assume nothing about you Nigel - I observe your total lack of humanity and the company you choose to keep during these discussions, nothing more
I haven're read the Guardian for twenty years - it's not too easy to come by where I live, if I wanted to
Don't make assumptions about my sources of information - I don't about yours
We are in a situation where the British Government is facing the consequences of allowing a dictator to massacre his people, having done nothing whatever to stop him other than to sell him some of the equipment to do so -
Parliament voted to sit on their hands and watch while those massacres took place place while it was gradually revealed how deeply they weer involved with the Assad regime
Now they are taking revenge on those who did try to stop what was hppening in Syria - by taking way their citizenship and adding to the rapidly growing world-wide refugee crisis
It comes as no surprise that Nigel and Iains should team up in this magnificent display of inhumanity and establishment arse-licking; I can't say I'm mor than a little disgusted that Al should make up the trio and hide behind his socialism to do so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:57 AM

It comes as no surprise that Nigel and Iains should team up in this magnificent display of inhumanity and establishment arse-licking; I can't say I'm mor than a little disgusted that Al should make up the trio and hide behind his socialism to do so

Commit the crime, take the punishment. Simples!

There would seem to be a presumption here that some know better, and possess more facts than the authorities. I wonder what justifies such arrogance?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:08 AM

those who seem to act as a pack to shout down anyone who appears to oppose what they think

What pack would that be, Nigel? Yourself and Iains maybe? You could add bobad who usually chips in from the sidelines. You could also include Teribus and Akenaton if they had not been banned for such activities. Stanron would probably support you but at least he does not seem to stoop to abuse or nitpicking.

Leavers don't automatically assume the worst of those in favour of remain.

No, I guess the term remoaners does not mean that those who wish to remain are just moaning. Calling people traitors who need to be shot is just a bit of fun. Telling those who want to remain to fuck off and live in the EU is friendly banter.

What were you saying about a beam? Take a look at your leaders and the press that support you before climbing on that high horse.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 04:38 AM

the difference is that the remainers focus on a few bonkers bastards to the extreme right.

in this way they totally sidestep the reasons and problems inherent in EU membership of EU. They are totally in denial, and say all kinds of rubbish - for example the oft repeated lie that British industry was on its knees prior to joining the EEC.

What is really the pain in the balls with Remainers is the daily dollop of abuse and feigned fury that arrives on my facebook page every day.

last week, Mike Harding wrote a post about his Uncle Len, a Leave supporter and total moron. One of Len's sins was failing to understand why the rest of Europe failed to feel any gratitude for Britain's role in WW2. My God! If Uncle Len had a war anything like my parents........

Anyway carry on abusing. I think you will find when eventually you middle class types bully your way to a second referendum, you will reap your reward in public disgust for the way you (as a whole -not just a few mad well publicised fuck-ups) have conducted yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:13 AM

More evidence that a Government can convict a person of a crime without being arsed to give them a trial because "they know better"
I think that's called fascism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:13 AM

More evidence that a Government can convict a person of a crime without being arsed to give them a trial because "they know better"
I think that's called fascism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:14 AM

the difference is that the remainers focus on a few bonkers bastards to the extreme right.

And so we should, Al. It is the bonkers bastards to the right that are calling all the shots at the moment. Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Gove and the rest are running the Conservative party. The right wing press are calling for execution of those who want to make sure parliamentary procedure is adhered to. Farage is still pulling the strings of the MSM. What do you expect people to concentrate on?

As to you middle class types bully your way to a second referendum, just who are you referring to? I, for one, have worked for almost 50 years without ever venturing into the middle class world of being a "performer, songwriter and teacher of guitar". How about you? Is arguing vehemently for real democracy and to overturn a very flawed decision bullying? It seems to me that it is the ERG and MSM that are doing all the bullying. To be a bully you need power. I certainly don't have any.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:22 AM

More evidence that a Government can convict a person of a crime without being arsed to give them a trial because "they know better"
I think that's called fascism

A sensible person would call it common sense. Try reading the legislation in full.

"They know better" would suggest they are in full possession of the facts whereas a an ex-sparky in a backwater dorp knows nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:23 AM

I think this conversation should be on the brexit thread though, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:30 AM

well i suppose Iains to be fair, you could say the same about Brexit.

The blockage in us leaving are the middle class posse in the houses of parliament.

they would say they are more aware of the facts than we the unwashed unlettered who voted to leave. they know better.

can't have it both ways mate....

don't worry about it. no one gives a shit about what we think anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:53 AM

To sum up
If he Government decides it knows better, there is no need to put someone on trial - taht's what I thought - the makings of a fascist state
Maybe Tommy Robinson can step into May's shoes when she is forced out by the extreme right Brexiters - his path is laid out for him and he hsi his supporter here
"ackwater dorp" - a step above "bogtrotter" I suppose
Your trouncings really have got to you
'Nuff of this talking to the children - work to do in the bog
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 06:11 AM

"We may disagree with the decision many leavers made based on cynical false claims and disinformation,
but accept they did it for what they believed at the time were positive reasons for the benefit of us all..
It's clear many now regret that decision."

So "what they believed at the time" and "now regret that decision" indicates that they were suckered into making a wrong call. They didn't realise what a bloody disaster brexit would inevitably be. Well I did, along with millions of others who embarked on a rapid learning curve during the campaign, the responsible thing to do. On the morning of 24 June 2016 I was in Italy and along with the Brits, Germans, Italians and Danes in the hotel I was bloody devastated. If you are one of the above "regretful" types, you didn't do your homework and then you irresponsibly voted out of ignorance. Let's not forget that these poor wee souls who now regret their decision are dragging us out of the EU in the biggest disaster for the country since WWII. So their ignorance and irresponsibility have got us into this mess. Ignorant is too kind a word. On top of that, over a third of leave voters openly admit to being racist. And that's just the ones who admit it. Ignorance and racism led to the leave victory. Anything else is just indulging stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 06:28 AM

I think some of the recent posts, including mine, following Nigel's mention of leavers 17 Apr 19 - 08:54 PM belong on the brexit thread. Can a kind mod do the honours please?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 06:41 AM

That's true. I knew I was in the "wrong" thread when I posted that, but I was responding to pfr's post in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 09:31 AM

Steve - I wasn't making excuses for the middle of the road non racist brexiteers..
..their gullibility dropped us all in the shit..

But I was countering Nigel's ridiculously sweeping false accusation about remainers...

It's people like him constantly stoking the division and conflict..
What they hope to achieve by this at a time when we all need to reunite calmly and sensibly...???

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 09:39 AM

i suppose it all comes down to class, and if you trust Mr Corbyn.

my mum paid her taxes, rates, worked over forty years - and when she got cancer there was no money for a stairlift to get upstairs for the bog. and it was at a time i had no money , having been forced to give up work.

And yet , all the most expensive QC's in the country are looking forward to this case - as a high profile. Public money - amiddle class cause celebre and suddenly no problem. Its like what people are saying about the Notre Dame fire. What a pity Grenfell tower wasn't full of old paintings and stained glass instead of people.

let's suppose you are right Jim. Assad is a monster that the US have backed - like they backed Apartheid, Pinochet, Saddam Hussein -for a while.

isn't that the realities of power. sometimes there are very limited options. corrupt south vietnam rather than Stalinist Ho Chi Minh; Saddam Hussein rather than Khomeini: etc.

Assad rather than ISIS. That's the kind of decision Corbyn will have to make if he's PM. Wilson refused to involve us in Vietnam, and the economy paid the price. Blair went along with the Americans and paid the price electorally and in his own party.
I don't think he fancies it. Its easier to fart and parp in opposition like Kinnock did. Thus we get this support for ISIS members at a time of austerity for the rest of the country. The announcement British Army criminals will be brought to justice. Opposition to any form of Brexit that May proposes - when most of his constituencies voted leave.

What does he have to do to get through to you...he's really happy where he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 10:06 AM

Legal Aid should be available to all, based on the individual’s, or group of individuals’, financial circumstances. Otherwise, only the wealthy have access to the legal system. The real problem is that changes in LA rules since 2010 have resulted in an unlevel playing field.

The question shouldn’t be, “Why is Shamima Begum being granted Legal Aid?”

The question should be, “Why weren’t the relatives of the Hillsborough victims, and the Grenfell Tower fire victims, entitled to Legal Aid?

Otherwise, it’s just another case of ‘Whataboutery’. And, no matter how perversely some people view these issues, two ‘wrongs’ still don’t make a ‘right’.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 10:14 AM

i suppose it all comes down to class, and if you trust Mr Corbyn.

Does it 'eck! What has class and JC got to do with having sympathy for a young woman in the dreadful situation of having dropped a complete clanger and paying the harshest price imaginable for it; the loss of 3 children and her own identity. Are you saying that only the middle class or those trusting JC are capable of compassion? What does that make the working class and those opposed to JC? Heartless monsters?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 10:24 AM

See what happens when you have opponents banned from BS,
and clamour for the last few to go as well...

That just leaves those of us broadly on the same side
pointlessly arguing amongst ourselves
until we disapear up our own rear ends...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 10:39 AM

"isn't that the realities of power. "
Apartheid fell, Saddam was taken out and Pinochet was taken into house arrest - none of them recoeved the punismenyt they desrved but because enough people who cared raised their voices, there effect becme muted and those who associated were shamed (I love quoting Thatcher's love affair with Pinochet)
Brw=exit (there goes that topic again) was floated on preventing foreigners entering Britain - this includes the refugees from wars we have been part of and have served as armourer to
Are we really going to stand by silently while the Government adds British Citizens to that growing number of refugees ?
I have no knowledge of this woman, what she did and why she did it, but when politicians start to condemn people to exile without trial - duck - you're next

AS MY OLD MATE JACK ONCE SAID

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 11:19 AM

'Brw=exit (there goes that topic again) was floated on preventing foreigners entering Britain'

Not for millions of socialist labour voters in constituencies across the land. It was more to do with the closure of dozens of employment opportunities due to the inequitable trading terms we have with Europe. The creation of an industrial wasteland. And it wasn't floated - it was bloody obvious from 1974 what was going to happen, and over forty years we've watched the direst predictions proved correct.

You're pretty quick with that rope over the branch yourself when it comes to trying and condemning the motives of your fellow citizens. Still never mind your middle class mates will still be able to get their meatballs at IKEA, and other matters of major concern.

As Bob Dylan said in Desolation Row, The cops don't need you and man! they expect the same. No brownie points to be had, for Kissing Junker's bum

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 11:27 AM

I wonder who the Brexiteers will blame when we’re out of the EU and things are even worse?

You’ve fallen for it hook, line, and sinker Al - blaming Johnny Foreigner for the mess our own successive governments (and our own business-owners and trade unions) have dropped us in over the years. Which is exactly what they wanted when they started bombarding you with the anti-EU propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:16 PM

"Not for millions of socialist labour voters in constituencies across the land."
THey wouldn't have made the day if it hadn't been for the ones who followed Farage's racist line - go look at how racist incidents shot up immediately after the result was announced
Do you carry around your bucket of sand or do you find one when you need something to bury your head in ?
Brexit was sold on a racist ticket
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:35 PM

I was perplexed and had to google why old lefties like Corbyn were anti EU..
I can sort of follow their reasons...???

Whether or not he'd be a good PM and cope with the demands of the job
when it comes to issues like 'Jihadi bride'..

well, I only ever saw him as a surprising and welcome breath of fresh air as leader,
and continue to wonder who he is mentoring to really take over from him...???

I think he's too old, and is starting to look unwell.
We need someone middle aged who can last for as many years as necessary...

[I say that as a bloke of 60, who already reluctantly accepts he is past his prime...]

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:37 PM

Er, most Labour voters, by a big margin, voted remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:51 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 06:11 AM

"We may disagree with the decision many leavers made based on cynical false claims and disinformation,
but accept they did it for what they believed at the time were positive reasons for the benefit of us all..
It's clear many now regret that decision."

So "what they believed at the time" and "now regret that decision" indicates that they were suckered into making a wrong call. They didn't realise what a bloody disaster brexit would inevitably be. Well I did, along with millions of others who embarked on a rapid learning curve during the campaign, the responsible thing to do. On the morning of 24 June 2016 I was in Italy and along with the Brits, Germans, Italians and Danes in the hotel I was bloody devastated. If you are one of the above "regretful" types, you didn't do your homework and then you irresponsibly voted out of ignorance. Let's not forget that these poor wee souls who now regret their decision are dragging us out of the EU in the biggest disaster for the country since WWII. So their ignorance and irresponsibility have got us into this mess. Ignorant is too kind a word. On top of that, over a third of leave voters openly admit to being racist. And that's just the ones who admit it. Ignorance and racism led to the leave victory. Anything else is just indulging stupidity.

Once again, a remain supporter (Steve Shaw) states, quite clearly that those who voted 'leave' were either racist, or ignorant.
If I were to state that those who voted remain were all dickheads, I would expect to be chided for disparaging their views (even though they were in the minority). The majority view here ( not representative of the UK people) is being accepted as the majority view of the UK people.
THIS IS NOT TRUE!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:52 PM

Also, this seems to have moved from the "Brexit" thread to the "Shamima Begum" thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:54 PM

Big Al, it is no use hankering after a past which is gone. And would be gone, EU or no EU, globalisation or no globalisation. Its no use being working class if all you want to get out of it is stagnation. My grandfather was a coal miner. In the 1920s the coal mines were closing down in his area. But he didn't sit on his backside moaning that he had been left behind. He crossed the country, looking for different work, and found it. And his children, who were denied a decent education by a combination of poverty and needing to fight in WWII, well they worked their way up into what you might call middle management jobs. But all of them impressed upon myself, my sister, and my cousins, that we could achieve what we wanted to achieve by never turning down an opportunity for education. And sone of our achievements have involved moving countries or even continents. Are we still working class? Of course we are. But we have made successes of our lives in our different ways by working and not moaning. That is the lesson of my grandfather's generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:56 PM

Big AL well i suppose Iains to be fair, you could say the same about Brexit.

You misunderstand my point. Security matters by   their very nature are secretive. This is the way it has to be, despite the wittering of the "entitled"left.
As a result government takes actions that may seem extreme, but what is the alternative?
It is no different than signing confidentiality agreements in the commercial world.

Do you think the WW2 British Propaganda slogan: Careless Talk Costs Lives was based on a complete fiction?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:01 PM

Nigel - what do you stand to gain from persisting with divisive arguments...???

Steve does not represent me, or many other remainers...
Why do you not accept that he is an idividual with his own immoderate style of tackling this issue.
Why do you insist he is the 'voice' of all of us...???

Should I generalise that you are the model for all leavers,
or just one of the nutters on the tory far right...???

Maybe you're usually a reasonable bloke for all I know...???

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:08 PM

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:01 PM
Nigel - what do you stand to gain from persisting with divisive arguments...???
Steve does not represent me, or many other remainers...
Why do you not accept that he is an idividual with his own immoderate style of tackling this issue.

I don't assume that Steve Shaw represents the view of all those who oppose Brexit. But many people here seem to agree with his views no matter how extreme they are.
Do you disassociate yourself from the views he puts forward?

I am quite happy to accept that he is an individual, and that his views do not represent those of any larger group. perhaps you need to make that clear to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:20 PM

Nigel - we're a diverse bunch who broadly agree, but not on every detail, or method of action..

You can't deny the right wing tends to lump all lefties together as one crude stereotypical homogenous group,
which they then dismiss with the most hostile demeaning language...

I'd still suggest most antagonism and insults emanate from the right,
which could be tested by any serious objective survey of the internet and other media...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 04:26 PM

You can't deny the right wing tends to lump all lefties together as one crude stereotypical homogenous group,
Which comment, clearly lumps all the right wing together as one group.

Try for some even-handedness in your comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 04:44 PM

This does appear to have morphed into a Brexit thread.

Meanwhile do we have a consensus on the actual question?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:25 PM

"Once again, a remain supporter (Steve Shaw) states, quite clearly that those who voted 'leave' were either racist, or ignorant.
If I were to state that those who voted remain were all dickheads, I would expect to be chided for disparaging their views (even though they were in the minority). The majority view here ( not representative of the UK people) is being accepted as the majority view of the UK people.
THIS IS NOT TRUE!"

Thing is, Nigel, I do think that most of the people who voted leave did so either out of ignorance or because they are racists. I could, by saying that they were xenophobes rather than racists, to soften the blow, but to be honest there's no difference. The point is that I gave you closely-argued reasons for my opinion. Fine if you want to call remainers dickheads. First, that isn't equivalent. Second, I've yet to read YOUR closely-argued reasons. And one more time, Nigel. You appear to be insinuating that belonging to a majority makes you right. I'd just remind you that a majority, at least to begin with, supported Adolf Hitler. A shaky argument then, Nigel. "Belonging to a majority" accords you no moral high ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:26 PM

A to too many...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:57 PM

By the way, I'm neither immoderate (cheers, pfr) nor extremist (cheers, Nige). I'm a normal bloke who's worked in multiracial/multicultural communities for many years. What dosh I possess is kept in banks that don't bear close examination on ethical grounds. I'm a capitalist whether I like it or not. I was appalled by the sheer dishonesty about the way the referendum was foisted on us, appalled by the campaigns and appalled by the stupidity of the millions who were suckered into voting leave. I did my homework during the campaigns and came to the only remotely possible sane conclusion, from a position of the best level of knowledge (not received wisdom, not prejudice) I could muster, that anything other than a remain vote would be an absolute disaster for the country. Not thinking about meself (no need, as my house is paid for and my pensions are sorted), but slightly more worried about my two kids and my grandchild. Three years later, I'm even more worried. I was right about brexit, wasn't I. I get on pfr's tits even though we are on the same side. Tough shit. But I'm not on your side, Nigel. You are solidly on the wrong side, and you and your ilk worry me because you simply can never see it. That makes you the extremist, Nigel. Extremists like you are blinkered and totally resistant to change, even in the face of the bleedin' obvious, that brexit is a friggin' disaster in the making. But plough on, Nigel. You know you're right. Even when you're disastrously wrong. As you'll see once we plunge out of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 06:39 PM

Steve - maybe you get on one of my tit's occasionally, rarely both at the same time..

Sometime's it's hard to determine if you're having a go at folks on your own side over minor misconstrued points..

Sometime's you're in full on attack mode when a little restraint might be more effective...???

btw.. I enjoyed that post.. it's a good un...

=========================

Nigel - don't be so petty and literal minded..
surely we are adult and intelligent enough not to resort to that level...

Let's try being more sophisticated, rather than opting for confrontation as the default response..

In this context, by right wing I mean the traditional spectrum
from centre spanning further out in a rightwards direction...
I am not summing all together as one simplistic stereotype...

I clearly meant that in a neutral non derogatory manner...

did I say right wing ****s,
no I merely said right wing for convenience as part of the point I was actually making...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 07:10 PM

What minor misconstrued posts, mate? Anyway, never mind. Tell me lTer...

Funny thing about right-wingers. They bloody hate to be called right-wingers, as with Nige, even when they are, or worse... But lefties love to be called lefties...

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 07:17 PM

Later, darling, later... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 09:14 PM

Steve - I'm a great one for forgive and forget..

I don't have much choice really.. seeing I've got such a shit memory...