BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jos
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:42 AM

Maybe a post has been deleted, to make that 100 into a 99.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:52 AM

"The same legal system has an opinion on her antics abroad."

You see, you're falling for tabloidism. We don't know what she's been engaged in and you trivialise things by referring to her "antics." What little we do know, that she was "married" extremely quickly and that she has already lost two babies whilst living in rotten conditions, among other things, strongly suggests to me that she may have suffered serial abuse. Who knows. I don't and you don't, and referring to her experiences as "antics" is tendentious in the most Daily Mail-like fashion imaginable.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:00 AM

Don't know if anybody saw the film 'Argo'
Puts "the risks" of rescuing a pregnant teenager in the comic books where it belongs
Even if they bother there arse about her safety they will fight to have her banged up if she makes it home
This is a sick inhumane way to treat an obvious victim
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:07 AM

Telegraph:
Bethnal Green Jihadi bride Shamima Begum 'has given birth' her family announces

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:35 AM

Obvious victim? willing stooge, brainwashed idiot? Who cares!
Until proven otherwise her return poses a potential risk.
The perceived risk is of far more importance than how the risk arose.
When the risk is nullified then the whys and wherefores can be established.
Who in their right mind would authorize travel into a potential war zone to repatriate her.

Some here obviously do not understand the concepts of prioritization and risk assessment. She shows no apparent remorse, she lived and gave succour to a terrorist, thereby aiding and abetting him. How many innocent victims resulted from her actions, I wonder?
No matter how you look at it there is a degree of guilt and complicity in her actions. She could have run for cover years ago. That she did not makes a very clear statement of it's own.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:43 AM

I see it's a little boy.
Once she has recovered from the birth, her parents/family could maybe go over and fetch her home. They've offered to take in her baby and raise it if she has to go to prison, as it couldn't be guaranteed she wouldn't face justice.

What crimes has she actually committed? (serious question)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:10 AM

What crimes has she actually committed? (serious question)

That would be dependent on the view of the government whenever she returns. To let her off scot free would encourage others. To make an example would make her a martyr and possibly invite retaliation.
I am glad it is not a question I have to answer. There is also the extensive "debriefing" required to establish what, if any, threat she poses.

As far as getting her back is concerned that could present problems.
Syria is still effectively partitioned and I have no idea how fluid those boundaries are. Having a river separating the government forces from the Kurds and Coalition? makes for a nice boundary on a map, but it covers many kilometres so how hard is it? She escaped from the last isis stronghold SE of Palmyra near the Iraq border to a camp in the NE,not too far from the Turkish border, in an area under Kurdish control. The map showing the men in black is somewhat out of date and their territory has shrunk.
But there are numerous caves they can disperse to in government controlled areas. They still pose a threat.
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2015/05/syria-country-divided-150529144229467.html

https://www.businessinsider.com/syrian-secret-cave-hideouts-2015-3?r=US&IR=T

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:24 AM

No now the family of a victim of Isis grooming is responsible for bringing her grandchild home home
Makes you wonder why we have British Embassy or United Nations

All this would be laughable if Britain hadn't helped start this war and give Isis a gap to fill in the first place
HIS DESERVES A READ
AND THIS
THIS TOO

The West's dirty hands are becoming even dirtier with incidents like this
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM

Frankly she's not worth wasting time over, little more than a raghead's whore.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:12 AM

Note to any mod seeing this thread. Disgusting racist comments such as Bonzos have no place here.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:31 AM

Wonder if they'll delete it and throw of the poster !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:04 AM

I am deeply saddened, but not surprised, by the lack of humanity in some posters on here.

Shamima Begum was a 15 year old girls when she went to Syria, just 15.

When I was 15 I had all sorts of wonderful visions of how I could change the world for the better. Time and age has robbed me of them but I could still dream of a better world.

Now her vision of a better world and mine are at complete odds with each other. However as a nation I consider we have an obligation to ensure she is safely returned to her native shore and hope, given time and education, she may prove to be a valuable resource to combat the indoctrination of organisations such as IS.

I am thankful it was not my daughter or son.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:22 AM

What crimes she has actually committed, if any, will be decided by a judge and jury after due process, not by the government. Once she returns to this country it's a rock-solid cert that she will be incarcerated until she has been thoroughly interrogated. Then she will be released only if she is not considered to be a threat and if she is not charged with terrorist offences. So I'd like to know what kind of "threat" some rather woolly-minded people think she poses merely by coming back. We've just seen one egregious outburst of Islamophobia in this thread. Seems to me that there are some other more subtle and more veiled examples here too.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:46 AM

Bonz in his usual lefty liberal baiting wind up mode
does serve to remind us
of baser ideas that are representative of a dominant majority of British public opinion...

Our bonz might actually be cute and cuddly compared to the far more fanatical exteme right thugs
who have invaded and conquered youtube
to monopolise it as their own propaganda platform......

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM

I'll drink tho that Rag
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:05 AM

Bonzo, we've had some lovely conversations about your dog Dreamy. But that comment is deeply insulting.

I personally am proud to be a 'raghead's whore', having been married to a lovely Muslim man for many years.

Please have a think about what you've posted. It's completely unacceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:08 AM

What crimes she has actually committed, if any, will be decided by a judge and jury after due process, not by the government

Due process is by the government or does a fluffy bunny carry out the interrogation and decide if there are grounds for prosecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:30 AM

The Crown Prosecution Service is a body independent of the government. They decided how to proceed once police investigation has taken place. Here's a big chunk from their website.

The decision to charge

Role of the Crown Prosecution Service
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) is the independent public authority responsible for prosecuting people in England and Wales who have been charged by the police with a criminal offence.

In undertaking this role we:

Advise the police on cases for possible prosecution
Review cases submitted by the police for prosecution in accordance with the principles in The Code for Crown Prosecutors
Consider the alternatives to prosecution in appropriate circumstances
Where the decision is to prosecute, determine the charge in all but minor cases
Prepare cases for court
Present those cases at court.
Once the police have completed their investigations, they will refer the case to us for advice on how to proceed in all but the most minor and routine cases. We will then make a decision on whether a suspect should be charged, and what that charge should be.

The Crown Prosecution Service does not act for victims or the families of victims in the same way as solicitors act for their clients. We act on behalf of the public and not just in the interests of any particular individual.

Our prosecutor will read the file and consider the two tests laid down in The Code for Crown Prosecutors, which sets out the basic principles that crown prosecutors must follow when making prosecution decisions. These tests must be applied in every case.

The evidential test
The prosecutor must first decide whether or not there is enough evidence against the defendant for a realistic prospect of conviction.

This means that the magistrates or jury are more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge. If there is not a realistic prospect of conviction, the case must not go ahead, no matter how important or serious it may be.

It is the duty of every Crown Prosecutor to make sure that the right person is prosecuted for the right offence. In doing so, Crown Prosecutors must always act in the interests of justice and not only for the purpose of obtaining a conviction.

The public interest test
If the crown prosecutor decides that there is a realistic prospect of conviction they must then consider whether it is in the public interest to prosecute the defendant. While the public interest will vary from case to case, broadly speaking the more serious an alleged offence the more likely it will be that a prosecution is needed in the public interest.

A prosecution is less likely to be needed if, for example, a court would be likely to fix a minimal or token penalty, or the loss or harm connected with the offence was minor and the result of a single incident.

The interests of the victim are an important factor when considering the public interest. Crown Prosecutors will always take into account the consequences for the victim and any views expressed by the victim or victims' family.

Deciding not to prosecute
If the crown prosecutor decides that a prosecution should not go ahead, the case will be stopped, usually by what is called 'discontinuance'. Unless there are special circumstances which mean that it is not appropriate to do so, you will be told the reasons for the decision to stop the case.

Often the hardest decision can be to conclude that there isn't enough of a case to go to court, even where the public favour a prosecution.

The decisions made by the CPS are based on publicly available, clear and visible legal guidance.

That all gives a pretty good starting point as to what we mean by due process of the law. Note that there is no reference to the government in any of it. Other aspects such as the rules for arrest and being held in custody and the right to representation, and the conduct of court hearings, are equally independent of government.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:31 AM

They decide. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM

Senoufou - Raghead is just British Army slang for nasty jihadists and daish types only, not decent folk, so no offence intended at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:32 AM

I see Bonzo. In that case I apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:45 AM

You have nothing to apologise for, Sen. Our racist Tory shit-for-brains Bonzo, on the other hand, adds shameless obfuscation to disgusting insult...

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/raghead

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:50 AM

"Raghead is just British Army slang for nasty jihadists and daish types only, not decent folk, s"
Raghead is a term of abuse aimed at Arabs in general both ib Britain and America, by racist scum
Whore is an abusive term aimed at women who sell their bodies
To describe a pregnant teenager as a "raghead's whore" is beneath contempt, no apology needed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:57 AM

English: raghead
raghead in British
('ræg?h?d)
noun
especially US
an offensive term for a person who wears a turban, keffiyeh, etc
Collins English Dictionary. Harper Collins Publishers

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:17 PM

If you believe the Crown Prosecution Service is not leant on by the government and security agencies on cases that have a significant "political" bent then I am afraid you are away with the faeries.

Now the link below you can take at face value or you can probe a little deeper and come up with an entirely different agenda.
https://www.mi5.gov.uk/news/intelligence-security-and-the-law

Let us take a couple of examples.
Tommy Robinson was arrested for contempt of court, hauled before a judge, sentenced and incarcerated in the space of an unprecedented 5 hours. Do you seriously believe it all happened "just like that"?
Tommy Cooper's magic or government complicity?
or
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/14/mi6-licence-to-kill-and-torture

The real world is a dirty place at times, luckily most of the time we are shielded from the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:19 PM

Nothing changes here I can see from the usual suspects

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:55 PM

An interesting caveat from Wiki concerning the Crown Prosecution Service:
The Attorney General for England and Wales superintends the CPS's work and answers for it in Parliament, although the Attorney has no influence over the conduct of prosecutions, except when national security is an issue or for a small number of offences that require the Attorney General's permission to prosecute.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:58 PM

There are a calculated 800 'Jihadists' due to return from Syria - wonder where they will find all those roes and trees !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:09 PM

Despite a long cut'n'paste about the CPS it should be noted that they deal with 'Criminal Prosecutions' under English law.
As anything this young woman has done which might be against the interests of this country was very likely done elsewhere I somehow doubt that the CPS will have any say in the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM

Doesn't take much to draw out the twists and turns of the conspiracy theorists, does it?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:31 PM

"Despite a long cut'n'paste about the CPS..."

Fancy a nitpick, by the way, Nigel? It was BY the CPS, not ABOUT the CPS. From the horse's mouth. Much better than a wiki "about," eh, Nige?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:31 PM

So.. seeing as we are all realists...

What's the betting certain newspapers are mulling over the pros and cons of bidding for her story
and funding a 'specialist team' to bring her and the baby back 'home'...

..Then there'll be the even more lucrative book and movie deals...???

..and a lifestyle of notorious celebrity.. maybe a reality TV series as well...

Though she'd have an unfair advantage if signed up for "Im a celebrity, get me out of here"...

Can she sing and dance...???

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM

"What's the betting certain newspapers are mulling over the pros and cons of bidding for her story"
Might be her only way of getting home
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:42 PM

Raghead is a deeply offensive term, and is meant to be so. So is whore. Don't pretend otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM

Six Syrian military personnel are in line to be arrested and tried on torture charges
Confusin' innit ?
A good rule of thumb in anything like this is to use Trumps statements as a direction not to go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:50 PM

No now the family of a victim of Isis grooming is responsible for bringing her grandchild home home
Makes you wonder why we have British Embassy or United Nations?

We do not and they do not have a diplomatic presence in Syria!
In February 2012 all diplomatic staff were withdrawn from the British Embassy in Damascus and its services were suspended. There is now no ambassador.
On 25 July 2012 Under-Secretary-General for Peacekeeping Operations Hervé Ladsous announced that about half of the military observers have been sent back to their countries.On August 16, France's UN Ambassador Gerard Araud, the current Security Council president, said the conditions to extend the mission in Syria beyond August 20, among which a significant reduction of violence, were not met and the mission would end.
Aid missions have continued.
More than 13 million people inside Syria require humanitarian assistance, including nearly 6 million children.
At the end of 2017, more than half the country’s hospitals, clinics and primary health care centres were only partially functioning or had been damaged beyond repair.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:52 PM

If you google "CPS terrorism" or "CPS jihadi" you'll find that the CPS is heavily involved in cases involving terrorist-related matters. In fact, they have a special division, the Special Crime and Counter Terrorism Division, headed by one Jenny Hopkins. Whilst it's certain that the Home Office and Foreign Office liaise closely with the CPS, any dark murmurings and knowing winks about leaning-ons, etc, by the government had better be supported by some solid evidence in m'humble. In due process in this country, the duel tenets of evidence and public interest must be maintained, and seen to be maintained, whether in terrorism-related matters or in anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:03 PM

Fancy a nitpick, by the way, Nigel? It was BY the CPS, not ABOUT the CPS. From the horse's mouth. Much better than a wiki "about," eh, Nige?

No, the cut'n'paste was by yourself.
The content may have been from the CPS, but without a link (which would have made a full cut'n'paste unnecessary) I will refer to how the post appears, as a cut'n'paste about the CPS.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM

Heheh.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:09 PM

If you google "CPS terrorism" or "CPS jihadi" you'll find that the CPS is heavily involved in cases involving terrorist-related matters. In fact, they have a special division, the Special Crime and Counter Terrorism Division, headed by one Jenny Hopkins. Whilst it's certain that the Home Office and Foreign Office liaise closely with the CPS, any dark murmurings and knowing winks about leaning-ons, etc, by the government had better be supported by some solid evidence in m'humble. In due process in this country, the duel tenets of evidence and public interest must be maintained, and seen to be maintained, whether in terrorism-related matters or in anything else.

If that was a response to my comment about this case being outside the general scope of the CPS you will find that most (if not all) of the links which can be found from your suggested searches relate to online, or physical, actions taken in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:24 PM

Well we are hardly going to be prosecuting our citizens while they're abroad, are we? What are you on about?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:31 PM

As you obviously didn't read/understand my earlier comment about the role of the CPS I will repeat it:

Despite a long cut'n'paste about the CPS it should be noted that they deal with 'Criminal Prosecutions' under English law.
As anything this young woman has done which might be against the interests of this country was very likely done elsewhere I somehow doubt that the CPS will have any say in the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:48 PM

To no-one in particular
????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM

let her in and keep her under constant surveillance

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:00 PM

A Sky News poll asking if Shamima Begum should be allowed to return to the UK found that 76% think she should not, 16% believe she should and 8% did not know.

76% do not want her back.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:32 PM

Some questions you could ask people before they opine as to permitting her return or not:

Do you know where she comes from? Locality, background, family?

Do you know her nationality?

Do you know her religion and whether she is religious?

Do you know where she went?

Do you know why she went?

Do you know what was going on in the place she went to?

Do you know who she joined?

Do you know anything about what she's been doing there?

Do you know how long she's been there and what's been happening to her there?

Do you know where she is now?

What do you think of Muslims?

To the members of this forum: Is it right to ask the question of people who are likely to be mostly uninformed at best and prejudiced at worst, and, if so, should we not ignore the response? Or do we choose to live by the confirmation bias we seek out?

I remember one survey taken around the time we were abolishing capital punishment. 84% of the people surveyed wanted to keep it. Well who'd have thought it. Another more recent survey in the US found that almost half of the people surveyed didn't believe in evolution. Outstandingly, 38% of the UK voting population voted to take themselves and another fifty million besides (three times as many as themselves) out of the EU. Looking at surveys of the mainly-uninformed and making decisions on the result is a dangerous game. As the UK is about to find out, big time. And I don't know what question Sky News asked, but forgive me for deciding to ignore the result of their survey.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:47 PM

And Amen once more, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:47 PM

A far more important question would be:
If Isis were still holding territory would Shamima Begum still be asking for repatriation?
Now she has given birth in Syria, what nationality is the child?

And I don't know what question Sky News asked, but forgive me for deciding to ignore the result of their survey.
Another inconvenient truth mayhap?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:04 PM

Fortunately the UK is not governed on the basis of small-sample popular polls run by news channels seeking to maximise their readership/viewership. We have elected representatives in parliament, and government agencies whose responsibility it is to take difficult decisions on everyone's behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM

so that is why we had a referendum?