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BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?

Senoufou 15 Feb 19 - 07:21 AM
peteaberdeen 15 Feb 19 - 07:43 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM
Senoufou 15 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Feb 19 - 07:53 AM
Senoufou 15 Feb 19 - 08:00 AM
Mrrzy 15 Feb 19 - 08:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 08:41 AM
Iains 15 Feb 19 - 08:44 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Feb 19 - 09:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 10:15 AM
Dave Hanson 15 Feb 19 - 10:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 10:38 AM
Rain Dog 15 Feb 19 - 10:50 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Feb 19 - 11:20 AM
Senoufou 15 Feb 19 - 11:26 AM
Jos 15 Feb 19 - 12:12 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Feb 19 - 12:24 PM
Senoufou 15 Feb 19 - 12:25 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Feb 19 - 12:47 PM
Iains 15 Feb 19 - 12:53 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Feb 19 - 01:20 PM
Jos 15 Feb 19 - 01:33 PM
Senoufou 15 Feb 19 - 01:50 PM
MikeL2 15 Feb 19 - 02:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Feb 19 - 03:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 04:00 PM
vectis 15 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Feb 19 - 04:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 05:12 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Feb 19 - 06:04 PM
Senoufou 15 Feb 19 - 06:24 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Feb 19 - 09:22 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Feb 19 - 09:38 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Feb 19 - 09:47 PM
robomatic 15 Feb 19 - 10:35 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM
Senoufou 16 Feb 19 - 04:11 AM
Iains 16 Feb 19 - 04:39 AM
Rob Naylor 16 Feb 19 - 04:57 AM
Jos 16 Feb 19 - 05:28 AM
Mr Red 16 Feb 19 - 05:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 19 - 05:52 AM
Senoufou 16 Feb 19 - 06:06 AM
Iains 16 Feb 19 - 07:01 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 19 - 07:04 AM
Roger the Skiffler 16 Feb 19 - 07:07 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Feb 19 - 07:32 AM

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Subject: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:21 AM

Shamima Begum left the UK at the age of 15 to become a 'Jihadi bride' in Syria. She had two babies there, but the children died from malnutrition and illness.
She is now heavily pregnant and is asking to return to UK to have her baby in an NHS hospital.

In an interview she declared that the sight of severed heads in a rubbish bin (victims of executions) 'didn't faze her'.
She is now 19.

It's not permitted to revoke someone's citizenship if it renders them stateless. But she could be seen as posing an enormous threat to the security of UK, as she has obviously been radicalised and brainwashed, and has not been averse to terrorism.

There's a huge debate going on about this young woman and what if anything should be done about her.
I have mixed feelings, and can see both sides of the argument.
Anyone care to comment?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:43 AM

i've just heard on the radio that according to 'save the children' that 300 children die in conflict zones every day. there must be a real danger that this young woman's child will suffer the same fate as her other 2 children if she is not permitted to return to where she could deliver the baby safely. as for the mother, i feel she has been groomed, trafficked and horribly abused - our country should show her kindness and compassion and hope that she can recover. whether she would ever be able to care for her baby is another matter. i'd expect the state has a duty of care for the child.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM

For, I think, the first time ever, I'm in absolute agreement with Jacob "Call Me Jake" Rees-Mogg - she should be admitted to the UK, then thoroughly investigated and subjected to the due process of law. If that involves her being kept in detention during that time, so be it.

There's a petition going to have her British Citizenship revoked, but this goes directly contrary to the British Citizenship Act 1981 and, if the Act is changed in order to target one individual, I fear that the rights of the rest of us will be damaged.

She was born in the UK, and should be afforded the rights that that bestows on her, but she should be dealt with by the forces of law in respect of any offences she may have committed.

It's worth remembering too that she was fifteen when she absconded from the UK - still legally a child - and that must be taken into consideration when she is judged.

Finally, there is the question of her unborn child, who is completely innocent and who, by virtue of its mother's nationality, is entitled to British Citizenship when it is born. If for no other reason than that, it seems to me that she should be allowed to return so that her child receives the protection to which it is entitled.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM

Oh thank goodness pete! I was a bit worried that everyone would shriek "Leave her to rot!" etc.

I feel exactly as you do. While admitting she could be dangerous, it is more in line with our compassionate and civilised attitude to try and help her readjust her mental state, 'deradicalise' her and care for her baby.

Her unborn child is an innocent party in this, and should be looked after and monitored once born.

The trouble is, I also feel great sorrow for the victims of bombings here (Manchester Arena etc).

What a world we live in! But surely spitefulness, vengeance and hate towards this woman cannot be the answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:53 AM

Good post Pete - I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:00 AM

Oh phew! Thank you Backwoodsman as well!

I'm trying to imagine just what this young person has gone through.
I expect she wasn't well-treated by the man/men who impregnated her.
She lost two babies, having watched them waste away from disease and lack of food. She's seen severed heads in bins and had to endure fierce indoctrination I expect, from bullying and violent Isis jihadis.

She must be absolutely traumatised, and is masking it with a cold, hard attitude of, "..not particularly fazed".

Let's hope she manages to reach the UK somehow, accepts help, medical support and monitoring, and can lead a better life with a happier future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:05 AM

Had she left as an adult she could rot. But she was a kid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:41 AM

Everyone makes mistakes, even as adults, and she was immature when she made her decision. I made some amazingly stupid decisions when I was 15. Luckily they did not affect anyone else too seriously.

Should she have the rest of her life ruined and should he unborn child be put at risk because of a poor choice when she was a rebellious teenager? I think not. Difficult for some to forgive and forget but maybe they can see their way to forgive and rehabilitate :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:44 AM

Her child is entitled to the best of care. Whether the mother should be allowed to be a parent is another matter. My feeling is she and her ilk pose a danger. She should be incarcerated at least until investigation is complete. In England and Wales and Northern Ireland the age of criminal responsibility is ten years. The only factor I would offer in her defense is that the UK government has been criminally negligent in its lack of action in pursuing and prosecuting those that radicalize young people.
    We hear much about the war on terror. In wartime those that pose a threat to the state are interned.
Why has this not happened?. If they pose a threat, lock them up!
In certain middle eastern countries tub thumping with a bible will have you jailed in an instant, yet we tolerate extremism in mosques.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:27 AM

well just bear in mind, she will soon be a very rich young lady . The tabloids will be forming a disorderly queue to buy her tale of severed heads, etc.

when one considers the fate of IS victims and the number of ex British soldiers living on the streets.

it doesn't seem fair to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:15 AM

So because the extremists of IS executed people and brainwashed the young and because some British soldiers are not treated as well as they should be, are you suggesting that this young woman and her unborn baby should be thrown to the wolves?

That doesn't seem fair to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:18 AM

Sajid Javid has said he will do everything in his power to keep this person out of the UK.

She is an adult now but remains unrepentant, let her stay in that shithole country with her beloved friends.

The baby has a Dutch father, maybe they can go to the Netherlands.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:38 AM

She is an adult now but remains unrepentant

She is brainwashed, Dave. She was an immature teen when she went. She has lived for years amongst extremists. She did make a bad choice in going there but once she was there she had no choice but to stay. She has suffered the most tragic loss anyone could ever imagine, the loss of a child. Not once but twice. I would give her the benefit of the doubt and say her unrepentance is not callousness but the result of something akin to shell shock.

I didn't know that the child's father was Dutch though so good point there. Is he still alive and living in Holland? If so, yes, let him help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:50 AM

Backwoodsman wrote:

"There's a petition going to have her British Citizenship revoked, but this goes directly contrary to the British Citizenship Act 1981 and, if the Act is changed in order to target one individual, I fear that the rights of the rest of us will be damaged.

She was born in the UK, and should be afforded the rights that that bestows on her, but she should be dealt with by the forces of law in respect of any offences she may have committed."

Things have indeed changed and may well change further. Interesting article in the Guardian last November by Kamila Shamsie

How can a government exile its citizens without a trial?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM

Yes Raindog, I know about that. But whilst the Act makes it possible to revoke British Citizenship for an individual who has dual nationality - British and another nationality, as in the case in the article - it is not possible to revoke British Citizenship where that is the only nationality held.

Jamima Begum was born in the UK and has only British Citizenship, under the British Citizenship Act 1981, it cannot be revoked, because to do so would render her 'Stateless'.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06820/SN06820.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 11:20 AM

Nota Bene - Humpty-Dumpty seems to be mouthing off about 'preventing' her from returning to the UK - he is not threatening to 'revoke her British Citizenship'.

'Preventing her return' seems to mean that there will not be a 'rescue mission' to bring her back to the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 11:26 AM

I've been looking at various forums/tabloids online, and the general consensus seems to be that she's odious, her attitude is execrable and she should be 'left to rot' etc.

Also comments about Muslims generally ('scum', 'evil' and so on).
These blanket condemnations aren't very helpful, and reflect a rather vicious mindset imho.

It doesn't look as if people are sympathetic or trying to raise funds for her. I don't think that would be appropriate anyway.

It's quite true that British Citizenship can be revoked only if someone has dual nationality. My husband was officially informed of this when he received his British Citizenship many years ago. He has Ivorian nationality too.
Isn't there an old saying, "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer" ?
It's better perhaps to have her under our aegis and monitored.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jos
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:12 PM

It seems her husband was captured by the Syrians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:24 PM

well maybe she would consent to live in your house Dave, seeing as you seem to have confidence in her future good behaviour, now that she is no longer a poor brainwashed victim.

but no, i don't think she should be treated better than people who have put their lives on the line for you and got injured physically and mentally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:25 PM

Do you know what became of him Jos?
She's had so much trauma in her short life hasn't she?

I wonder if, at fifteen, she had a romantic idea of rushing off to Syria, offering herself to a dashing Isis husband, being part of a 'just cause' as idealistic youngsters often do. I bet the reality was absolutely dire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:47 PM

i can't see qualitatively a difference between her and a fifteen year old who , craving a more exciting life, decides to carry a knife around - and kills somebody.

except by and large - they tend to be working class kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:53 PM

Actions have consequences. It is that simple. In what way is her behaviour different to Lord Haw Haw or Sir Roger Casement. They also supported our enemies. The important work Casement did to highlight colonial abuse, especially in the Congo, counted for nowt, he was still executed for high treason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:20 PM

"I don't think she should be treated better than people who have put their lives on the line for you and got injured physically and mentally."

Neither do I, Al. But can you point out to me where anyone on this thread is suggesting that she should be? The general consensus seems to be that she should be allowed to return, and then thoroughly investigated, de-briefed, de-radicalised (if that's possible), and subjected to due process of law - with a prison sentence the likely outcome. I don't really see that as being 'treated better than people who...yadda yadda'.

And I'm in absolute agreement with your abhorrence at the treatment of ex-servicemen and women who are unable to resume normal civilian life due to their physical or mental injuries. But that has little or nothing to do with a teenage girl who has almost certainly been psychologically damaged by the brainwashing techniques of IS and its supporters. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the unborn child she's carrying, who is completely innocent in all of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jos
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:33 PM

Eliza, this is from the BBC news web page. It's all I know except that he is said to be a Dutch jihadi convert.

"She escaped from Baghuz - IS's last territory in eastern Syria - two weeks ago.

Her husband surrendered to a group of Syrian fighters as they left, and she is now one of 39,000 people in a camp in northern Syria."


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:50 PM

Ah, thank you Jos.
It occurred to me that she hardly dares be seen to 'repent' while she's still in Syria. Even if she did return to UK, the fundamentalist Isis supporters might attack/target her for rejecting their cause.

She could also be seen by them as a risk, if she gave us information about terrorist activities etc. She'd be a 'marked woman'.

This might explain her cool, hard tone of 'not being fazed' by the severed heads etc. She's wary of reprisals and vengeance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: MikeL2
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:29 PM

hi

I.can see both sides of the discussion - I can see why some don't wish to see the 19 year old in this country. I would have difficulty in in deciding what would be best.

However, she is carrying a baby. this changes everything. The baby is not responsible for anything and we should try to provide it with as good a life as we can. My view is that it is wrong to separate a child from her mother. We should consider trying to find a solution where they are not split up.

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM

now that she is no longer a poor brainwashed victim.

Which is just the opposite of what I and many others have said, Al. I think you are better sticking to making up songs rather than making up what people have said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:32 PM

' to be that she should be allowed to return, and then thoroughly investigated, de-briefed, de-radicalised (if that's possible), and subjected to due process of law - with a prison sentence the likely outcome.'

One of my wife's schoolfriends runs a counselling service for traumatised ex-servicemen.

I think you would find that the set of proposals you are advancing would cost about fifty times what is spent on loyal but damaged servants of this country.

still that's what you all seem to want. so i'll bow out of the consensus discussion as usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 04:00 PM

subjected to due process of law - with a prison sentence the likely outcome.

Is that what you really want for traumatised ex service personel, Al?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: vectis
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM

She was a child when she left and is not yet out of her teens. She should be allowed back for her baby's birth and fully debriefed and de-radicalised.
I saw he "not fazed" as youthful bravado, putting on a show rather than coldness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 04:25 PM

dunno....i've never seen a severed head. I'm not sure what the correct reaction would be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:12 PM

Focus, Al, focus. You're not making sense with this random posting of unrelated sound bites.

Don't let her in because service personnel need help
Take her into your house
I'm out of here apart from to make daft comments about severed heads

Have you been taking Daily Mail tablets?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 06:04 PM

There's a lot of speculative thinking going on here. She's a citizen of this country and should come home if she wants to. Then she needs to be interrogated. Big time. If she's allegedly committed any offence, she should be tried according to the conventions of our justice system. We do have ways of dealing sensitively with mothers with babies. There is every possibility that she's been groomed, and every possibility that she is currently in a place where she can't say what she really thinks, and what she's saying right now should not be regarded as in any way incriminating, indigestible though it is. Beware of tabloidism, yeah? Finally, she could contribute hugely in persuading other young people to resist radicalisation. Who knows? At the end of the day, we can all have opinions, but we can only have informed opinions if we are informed. Which, currently, we are not, not sufficiently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 06:24 PM

I'm really very heartened by the comments on here. Measured, humane and civilised - nobody spitting feathers or nasty remarks about the woman.
Mudcat folk are usually sensible and wise, and this thread demonstrates that.
I hope Shamima can get back to the UK and the relevant authorities will be able to find out exactly what she has been doing, and make sure her baby is well cared-for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:22 PM

I agree theres not enough information to really understand.

I wondered at the time what the hell their parents were doing . Surely they must have given an idea of the thoughts that must have been haunting them. most 14 year olds never shut up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:38 PM

I remember when I was 13 or 14. We were a Quaker family, but we lived in this little Lincolnshire were there wasn't even an all night Gents toilet. (There was one in the park for the gay community, patronised by my Latin and History teachers - but that is no matter).

Anyway, the Mormons came to town and started a Youth Club for kids my age. They were fabulous looking guys. American accents, smart suits and they had their hair done like John Kennedy.(JFK)

So I went to the youth club. ONCE!

when my parents found out I had been involved with the Mormons, they went apeshit! in fact double apeshit!!
And that's how I was saved from a life of polygamy, and drinking cafeine substitute, and Osmond Brothers concerts.

I mean think about it! IS! Those parents must have been asleep....


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:47 PM

She came from Bethnal Green. I don't know what Bethnal Green's like these days, but I knew it well back in the '70s. In fact, Mrs Steve lived there when I first met her, living as she was in a council block just off Globe Road. I spent many a night there (I was living in Poplar meself), and we often went to the Bishop Bonner of a Thursday night to see Chas and Dave before fame came to them. It was a tough area, a place where a lot of the kids came from when I started teaching in Poplar, a ten-minute ride away on the 106 bus. I don't think too many of us understand what it's like to live in places like that. No excuses. Just an observation to give context. I suppose there's been some gentrification. But I wouldn't mind betting that most of the place isn't that different from when I knew it then. So I guess that their parents were pulled this, that and the other way, just like the parents I knew back then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:35 PM

I do not think I have the background to air an opinion vis-a-vis her legal position in the UK. But age 15 in our day and age is still being a kid. I'm kinda questioning the presence of adults (parents?) in her life but I've come to a change in attitude within the last few months regarding women's 'poor choices' in men. I used to blame the victim on the idea that women should choose better men. But I've changed my mind on this. Why should women be better judges ofr character than the men they find? And there are a lot of crummy men and they will say anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM

Yes Steve - to be honest that's the very thing that makes me wonder.

Of course, you can't generalise. But I taught for many years in the inner ring of Brum. Mostly down the Soho Road where all the riots were.
And I would say that by and large, kids with Asian and West Indian backgrounds were much more closely supervised by their parents than most of the white kids.

Of course, times change. In those days everybody knew everyone else - there was something of a village atmosphere. No one could fart without everyone in the area knowing about it. And that would true about everyone North of the city. You'd pass on some news to someone in Perry Bar or Erdington - and nine times out of ten, another member of the family would have already passed it on.

I don't think you could set up a terrorist group without your Mum finding out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:11 AM

I wonder where the three girls got the money for their air fares to Turkey? And who bought their tickets? Surely no airline would accept bookings from three minors. Adults must have been involved.
And they must have obtained valid UK passports in order to board the plane. Who organised and paid for that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:39 AM

Senoufou you raise some interesting questions. Most airlines allow children from 12 to 15 years old to travel alone but must also request the accompanied minor service.When traveling with a low cost airline, children generally must be 16 years old or over to be able to travel alone, otherwise boarding will be denied.
       Perhaps the security services should study the manifests, seating patterns of the period in question and also who purchased the tickets. Should be able to generate a few prosecutions from the data obtained.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:57 AM

They stole relatives' jewellery and sold it. One of them was 16 and able to book tickets. They also held enough money back for paying the guy who smuggled them into Syria.

I struggle a bit with the idea that they didn't know what they were getting into.... The video of relief worker Alan Henning being beheaded was all over the Internet well before they left, and I can't believe they weren't aware of it.

A lot of the people I know who are saying "they were just kids" are the same people who were campaigning for the referendum voting age to be lowered to 16 on the grounds that people of that age are perfectly capable of exercising mature judgement.

I'm a bit ambivalent about how to treat her.... As a British citizen, and assuming she doesn't have dual nationality, she has the right to return, but I don't think the government should provide funds or resources for her to do so. Maybe the congregation of the mosque her family attends could give some charitable assistance? If she's 9months pregnant she won't be allowed to fly, though.

As to how much is spent on rehabilitating her, treating her for PTSD etc, I'm somewhat aligned with Al here, knowing how little help the government has given to a number of service personnel suffering from PTSD who I know from my "tabbing" events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jos
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:28 AM

I read somewhere that she used her older sister's passport.

When the UK government repatriates people they expect them or their families to repay the cost.

Even if she does manage to return to England, it seems likely that the baby will be born before then, so (unless she is in a British consulate at the time) will the baby then be a citizen of the country in which it is born?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:47 AM

Surely the legal position is to allow her to return to her country of origin, and there to face the full might of the law regarding terrorism.

She knows this and obviously prefers a few years in a UK jail to the prison she has found herself in. Whether she has learned her lesson, is yet to be established, but propaganda got her to where she is, and propaganda could return her to society. But would we spend the time and money sorting out a mess created by youth and stupidity?

Should we punish her family for allowing her to be radicalised? Resposibility starts in the home, after all. Then again - if they are sanguine they have their punishment and would be contrite, but words are cheap.

For sure it ain't a binary option, life never is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:52 AM

You could be right, Rob. My initial thoughts were to try and remember what I was like at 15. 50+ years have passed since so I could be wrong and even if not, I should not apply what I was like to someone from a different time, area and upbringing. Even if she was aware of what IS were though I doubt if she would have been aware of the full implications of her decision and her poor decision at 15 should not mar the rest of her life.

I fully accept that the government does not do enough to help traumatised service personnel but how will denying this girl any assistance help to put that wrong right? Surely, if she does receive counselling or whatever it will help to build a case to improve the assistance for all people traumatised by violence?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:06 AM

Some interesting remarks from the head of MI6 (made me smile as the chap was named as Alex Younger, known as 'C' - that's his cover blown then!)
At the Munich Security Conference he said, "All experience tells us that once someone has put themselves in that sort of position, they are likely to have acquired the skills and connections that make them potentially very dangerous...public safety is the first thing we will consider."
I feel he should be listened to, as MI6 must have all the details and a vast knowledge of these things, and are more aware of the inherent dangers than uninformed 'civilians' could ever be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:01 AM

“I’m not the same silly little 15-year-old schoolgirl who ran away from Bethnal Green four years ago,” she told me. “And I don’t regret coming here.”

Does not sound like repentance to me, or a request to have help to return. As we are not in the schengen zone we can collar her on her return and let due process take it's course, bearing in mind that to spare the rod is to spoil the child.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:04 AM

Thought I'd posted this - hpe it wasn't deleted - that would be censorship
In my opinion the fact that this young woman was a child and was almost certainly groomed should be a major consideration in this case
The terms 'Jihadist' and 'terrorist' are long overdue for examination - it has been admitted that they are being misused   
Britain shares a large responsibility for the rise of Assad and his thugs - selling riot equipment to suppress the Arab Spring protests, selling chemicals capable of manufacturing weapons, then voting not to become involved in the atrocities of the Civil War that ensued
Young people, possibly this young woman, became =involved, not out of religious fervour bu to fill the gap the West left when they allowed Assad to do what he is still doing
It little behooved them to punish one of his possible victims
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:07 AM

Her family want her back but agree she should be investigated on her return. Seems fair. It would be nice if she now repents her decision and is prepared to warn other young girls but no sign of this. At least if she is here her family can look after the child and authorities might be able to get useful intelligence from her.
RtS


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:32 AM

Thank goodness there's someone giving the bigger picture, so cheers for that, Jim.

As for this:

"As to how much is spent on rehabilitating her, treating her for PTSD etc, I'm somewhat aligned with Al here, knowing how little help the government has given to a number of service personnel suffering from PTSD..."

I'm afraid there's some flawed logic flying around here. Perhaps "two wrongs wouldn't make a right" would cover it.

And one or two people here are still speculating about the circumstances we're not yet apprised of in this case, then rushing to judgement. As I said earlier, let's not resort to tabloidism.


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