BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 10:43 AM

I think that the present gloating at another's possible misfortune following Brexit going on on another thread pretty well sums up the humanity of the opposition

Have you got your threads mixed up as well as your ideas? I find your comments insulting!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM

Popular opinion, guided by the press, maybe one aspect, Mo but in another sense, I’m not sure that what she is reported as saying matters that much. One could say they now saw that they had got into something bad and be lying. One that side alone, I’d view a person expressing either outlook as being a potential threat.

For a more compassionate view, I do believe in second chances, perhaps increasingly so as I get older (I think there was a time I’d say “lock em up and throw away the key” for some things without further thought). I could also speculate as to how many may have wound up in bad places had they lived in different circumstances. I do feel a combination of some disillusionment or sense of injustice and someone manipulative enough to work on a weakness and sell a “glorious cause” could be very effective, particularly with teenagers.

I suppose that leaves me in the camp that would support her coming back to the UK but one that would involve close scrutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 10:08 AM

As I posted yesterday - the realist way she can come back is if a cynical newspaper
can profit from sending out a rescue squad of private security 'mercs'
in exchange for rights to her story...

Probably the only other way to secure the services of such a trained 'specialist team'
would be for family and supporters setting up a crowdfunding appeal,
and begging the money...???

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 08:54 AM

Did she ask the journalist to tell her story, or did they find her?
Did she say "I'm not sorry" or did they ask the question and expand her answer. Same re atrocities.
The story will have been edited to give whatever impression the paper wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 08:00 AM

It would be a particularly callous person that did not have some degree of sympathy for the 'Jihadi Bride'. However you do not travel deliberately to a war zone without a degree of self involvement. The amount of her culpability is in question. Millions of other victims have zero culpability.
Focus would be better placed with the innocents!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 07:45 AM

"the hatred shown on this thread has come exclusively from your political "bedfellows" "
I think that the present gloating at another's possible misfortune following Brexit going on on another thread pretty well sums up the humanity of the opposition   
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:40 AM

Senoufou, the hatred shown on this thread has come exclusively from your political "bedfellows"

The more tolerant, compassionate and caring views have come exclusively from people who are not your political "bedfellows"

Hmmmmmmmmmm .......... something for you to contemplate.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM

Had western powers not plotted and carried out regime change in the Middle East ir is unlikely organisations such as Daesh and Isis would have arisen. Warfare creates casualties and devastation. If governments make a hash of omelettes there is a residue of broken eggs. Embargoes, sanctions bombs,deliberate destruction of critical infrastructure,lack of food and critical medical supplies has killed and displaced millions over the Middle East. Attention would be better focused on people such as Blair who deliberately lied to take us to war in Iraq, and all the other politicians that caused us to wage illegal wars in the Middle East. None of these wars were fought for humanitarian reasons,they were fought for economic gain. To concentrate on one "victim" and her Dutch child shows a shocking disregard for the truth and the millions of INNOCENT victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

"Maybe people nowadays are swept along in a tide of Islamophobia, xenophobia and downright callousness"
You have that spot on Sen - and some of our more unsavoury politicians who may or may not hold the views you mention are busy using human suffering as way up the greasy pole
Islamophobia and all forms of widespread bigotry are, I believe, often based on genuine fears and the victims are both the bigots and the targets of their bigotry
Personally, I believe we are very lucky to have a perfect representative of everything that has gone wrong with British society, so let's cherish his presence (doesn't mean we have to respond to it - he manages to speak for us, sometimes more eloquently that we do ourselves)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:25 AM

My husband utterly despises IS, radicalised fundamentalists, jihadis, terrorists and all they stand for. He knows far more about Islam than I do, and tells me their ideology is far from true Islamic thought and religion.
Yet even he feels terribly sorry for this woman and thinks she should be brought back to UK and given medical/psychological help, while her baby is medically examined and cared for, but not separated from its mother.
He says the Law will sort it out and she will get true justice. He doesn't think she presents a risk to us.

My only worry is that ordinary, law-abiding Muslims here in UK (such as my gentle husband) will be subject to Islamophobia, racism and unfair exclusion and prejudice.

Any human being is a fellow human being. And there is quite a lot of power in compassion and tolerance. They can defuse fraught situations and disarm evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

It's grand to see that most of us here share those humanitarian instincts. Sad that a couple of people refuse to join us.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:48 AM

Jim and Steve (and others) are right. There seems to be an extraordinary lack of compassion and human sympathy for refugees, Grenfell Tower casualties and this young woman.

Maybe people nowadays are swept along in a tide of Islamophobia, xenophobia and downright callousness. The mob bigotry and racism carry all the ignorant people towards a state of complete intolerance and hatred.
I agree that our country didn't used to be like this. So sad.

I saw on the News just last night some footage of one of these 'camps' in Syria. The children's faces said it all. Pinched, hungry, afraid and obviously suffering. The women looked desperate.
I can't imagine what it must be like to have just given birth, to be weak and ill-fed, having already experienced terrible trauma and seen evil things.
I can only hope and pray that somehow Shamima can be fetched home and helped.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM

yes a little christian or himanitarian consideration would be good

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:38 AM

It is apparent some live all their lives in fluffy bunny land.
Funny, I spent several months in a well guarded camp. Ditches, walls, razor wire, watchtowers, the whole nine yards. We still had bunkers within sprinting distance. Even a mortar hops over defenses no prob.
Shaw restrict yourself to commenting on things of which you have a slight knowledge, you are an embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

The refugee camp is several hours away from the last-ditch fighting and is heavily guarded. Conditions in the camp are next to intolerable, with factions forming among the refugees leading to bullying and beatings up. We don't know what this young woman has done but so far she has not been tried for any offence, and she and her child are in harm's way. She is a citizen of our supposedly civilised country and it is an outrage that she can't come home. We should be flexing every muscle to get her back and I simply won't accept that it isn't possible. I suppose that with confounded bigoted thickheads such as Javid at the helm there's no political will to get her back, so we'll keep hearing the cod excuses as to how getting her home would be "too dangerous" and that having her here "would pose too much of a risk." Bullshit. Islamophobic bullshit too, and we're hearing it in this thread as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:47 AM

Well Mr Shaw what is your proposed method of extraction for the young lady and her child?

It is also worth pointing out that under Syrian Law nationality is determined solely by the father's nationality, while the place of birth is irrelevant. In other words, birthright citizenship is not recognized since being born in Syria does not grant an automatic right to become a national. Under Syrian Law the infant is recognised as Dutch by virtue of her Dutch jihadist husband Yago Riedij.
If the child's rights are paramount, perhaps the Dutch government should take the problem away and solve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:30 AM

Amen, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:21 AM

This is not unlike the inhuman attitude that the survivors of the Grenfell Tower disaster be left to fend for themselves rather than allow them the use of vacant and usable property on a temporary basis
It's about time the people who support leaving this young woman and her newborn child out in a war zone that is quite likely to shortly turn into a killing field for Assad and his thugs, remember who we are discussing - a young woman who went out as a child and a newborn baby
That large sections of the British population can be claimed to support leaving her there shames the British people and what they have become - pretty well in line with leaving refugees and asylum seekers and their children to drown rather than allow them to land - I can never remember my country sinking as low as this in my lifetime
We should hang our heads in shame rather than display these disgusting figures as evidence that this young woman should be left to die - what kind of people would even consider it ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:05 AM

You may not agree that she should be brought home, rather than that she should be forced to make her own way home unsupported. Actually, that makes you an inhumane idiot. Of course it would cost us, you brainless gits bray about. But you self-same brainless gits never protest at the hundred billion that armies of accountants relieve billionaires of in terms of tax liabilities every year. That's all hunkydory with you Tory bigots, yet you'd deny the three or four grand it would cost to get this young woman and her baby home. So I'd like to set you a challenge, or a question, see it as you will:

I assume you are volunteering to go out and extricate her from what is still a war zone or are you happy to risk British lives so long as your own is not one of them?
The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) advise against all travel to Syria. British nationals in Syria should leave by any practical means. Consular support is not available in Syria. The UK has suspended all services of the British Embassy in Damascus and all diplomatic and consular staff have been withdrawn from Syria. British nationals requiring assistance should make their way to a neighbouring country where the UK has a consular presence.

The situation remains extremely volatile and dangerous. High levels of violence persist throughout Syria, including full scale military operations involving the use of small arms, tanks, artillery and aircraft. A number of chemical weapons attacks have taken place across Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:40 PM

So let's see. We think we can contain any "threat" that this nineteen-year-old could pose should she return. She's a Brit, so we should be letting her come home. She must expect to face the full rigour of our justice system, both in terms of security and of natural justice. As a civilised country, we don't allow our citizens to be thrown to the wolves, though we agree that they must face the sternest scrutiny, once home. There is no bye, no free pass.

Reasonable people would agree with all that. You may not agree that she should be brought home, rather than that she should be forced to make her own way home unsupported. Actually, that makes you an inhumane idiot. Of course it would cost us, you brainless gits bray about. But you self-same brainless gits never protest at the hundred billion that armies of accountants relieve billionaires of in terms of tax liabilities every year. That's all hunkydory with you Tory bigots, yet you'd deny the three or four grand it would cost to get this young woman and her baby home. So I'd like to set you a challenge, or a question, see it as you will:

You're an Islamophobe, aren't you? No reason you've so far given for not allowing her home, or paying to get her home, has exonerated you so far from that accusation. So give me your reasons, please. And tell me where you left your humanity behind while you're at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:36 PM

Odd, I was thinking the same thing meself. His strategy is good, but I would hate to think that I'd agree with his underlying sentiments, whatever they are. Who knows. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:13 PM

The baby of course, like the mother, is British citizen.

Of course what would be most convenient for the government would be if Shamila were to die out in the camp. No doubt they'd then express regrets at this tragic outcome.

I see Trump is saying the the UK and other governments whose nationals went to join Isis oought to bring them all back home and prosecute them for any wrongdoing. For once Ifind myself in agreement with the man.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:25 PM

That's it in a nutshell, Dick. As LBJ said about the supertwat J Edgar Hoover, better to have him in the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. But, in her case, d'you think we could also add just a small tinge of common humanity to the mix? A bit, dare I say, of that bloody Christian stuff? Long term, wouldn't that serve us well, as well as the young woman and her child?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:12 PM

best to have someone who could be dangerous close and undersurveillance

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:22 PM

....Thank goodness.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:19 PM

And look what a fucked-up disaster that's brought us to the brink of. A perfect example of the stupidity af asking an ill-informed public to decide on issues that are the responsibility of parliament and the government to make judgment on.

And it was a referendum, run by the government - not a small-sample popular poll run by a news agency with an agenda. Don't insult your own intelligence by pretending not to understand the difference.

But again, referendums in the U.K. are very much the exception rather than the rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM

so that is why we had a referendum?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:04 PM

Fortunately the UK is not governed on the basis of small-sample popular polls run by news channels seeking to maximise their readership/viewership. We have elected representatives in parliament, and government agencies whose responsibility it is to take difficult decisions on everyone's behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:47 PM

A far more important question would be:
If Isis were still holding territory would Shamima Begum still be asking for repatriation?
Now she has given birth in Syria, what nationality is the child?

And I don't know what question Sky News asked, but forgive me for deciding to ignore the result of their survey.
Another inconvenient truth mayhap?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:47 PM

And Amen once more, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:32 PM

Some questions you could ask people before they opine as to permitting her return or not:

Do you know where she comes from? Locality, background, family?

Do you know her nationality?

Do you know her religion and whether she is religious?

Do you know where she went?

Do you know why she went?

Do you know what was going on in the place she went to?

Do you know who she joined?

Do you know anything about what she's been doing there?

Do you know how long she's been there and what's been happening to her there?

Do you know where she is now?

What do you think of Muslims?

To the members of this forum: Is it right to ask the question of people who are likely to be mostly uninformed at best and prejudiced at worst, and, if so, should we not ignore the response? Or do we choose to live by the confirmation bias we seek out?

I remember one survey taken around the time we were abolishing capital punishment. 84% of the people surveyed wanted to keep it. Well who'd have thought it. Another more recent survey in the US found that almost half of the people surveyed didn't believe in evolution. Outstandingly, 38% of the UK voting population voted to take themselves and another fifty million besides (three times as many as themselves) out of the EU. Looking at surveys of the mainly-uninformed and making decisions on the result is a dangerous game. As the UK is about to find out, big time. And I don't know what question Sky News asked, but forgive me for deciding to ignore the result of their survey.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:00 PM

A Sky News poll asking if Shamima Begum should be allowed to return to the UK found that 76% think she should not, 16% believe she should and 8% did not know.

76% do not want her back.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM

let her in and keep her under constant surveillance

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:48 PM

To no-one in particular
????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:31 PM

As you obviously didn't read/understand my earlier comment about the role of the CPS I will repeat it:

Despite a long cut'n'paste about the CPS it should be noted that they deal with 'Criminal Prosecutions' under English law.
As anything this young woman has done which might be against the interests of this country was very likely done elsewhere I somehow doubt that the CPS will have any say in the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:24 PM

Well we are hardly going to be prosecuting our citizens while they're abroad, are we? What are you on about?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:09 PM

If you google "CPS terrorism" or "CPS jihadi" you'll find that the CPS is heavily involved in cases involving terrorist-related matters. In fact, they have a special division, the Special Crime and Counter Terrorism Division, headed by one Jenny Hopkins. Whilst it's certain that the Home Office and Foreign Office liaise closely with the CPS, any dark murmurings and knowing winks about leaning-ons, etc, by the government had better be supported by some solid evidence in m'humble. In due process in this country, the duel tenets of evidence and public interest must be maintained, and seen to be maintained, whether in terrorism-related matters or in anything else.

If that was a response to my comment about this case being outside the general scope of the CPS you will find that most (if not all) of the links which can be found from your suggested searches relate to online, or physical, actions taken in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM

Heheh.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:03 PM

Fancy a nitpick, by the way, Nigel? It was BY the CPS, not ABOUT the CPS. From the horse's mouth. Much better than a wiki "about," eh, Nige?

No, the cut'n'paste was by yourself.
The content may have been from the CPS, but without a link (which would have made a full cut'n'paste unnecessary) I will refer to how the post appears, as a cut'n'paste about the CPS.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:52 PM

If you google "CPS terrorism" or "CPS jihadi" you'll find that the CPS is heavily involved in cases involving terrorist-related matters. In fact, they have a special division, the Special Crime and Counter Terrorism Division, headed by one Jenny Hopkins. Whilst it's certain that the Home Office and Foreign Office liaise closely with the CPS, any dark murmurings and knowing winks about leaning-ons, etc, by the government had better be supported by some solid evidence in m'humble. In due process in this country, the duel tenets of evidence and public interest must be maintained, and seen to be maintained, whether in terrorism-related matters or in anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:50 PM

No now the family of a victim of Isis grooming is responsible for bringing her grandchild home home
Makes you wonder why we have British Embassy or United Nations?

We do not and they do not have a diplomatic presence in Syria!
In February 2012 all diplomatic staff were withdrawn from the British Embassy in Damascus and its services were suspended. There is now no ambassador.
On 25 July 2012 Under-Secretary-General for Peacekeeping Operations Hervé Ladsous announced that about half of the military observers have been sent back to their countries.On August 16, France's UN Ambassador Gerard Araud, the current Security Council president, said the conditions to extend the mission in Syria beyond August 20, among which a significant reduction of violence, were not met and the mission would end.
Aid missions have continued.
More than 13 million people inside Syria require humanitarian assistance, including nearly 6 million children.
At the end of 2017, more than half the country’s hospitals, clinics and primary health care centres were only partially functioning or had been damaged beyond repair.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM

Six Syrian military personnel are in line to be arrested and tried on torture charges
Confusin' innit ?
A good rule of thumb in anything like this is to use Trumps statements as a direction not to go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:42 PM

Raghead is a deeply offensive term, and is meant to be so. So is whore. Don't pretend otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM

"What's the betting certain newspapers are mulling over the pros and cons of bidding for her story"
Might be her only way of getting home
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:31 PM

So.. seeing as we are all realists...

What's the betting certain newspapers are mulling over the pros and cons of bidding for her story
and funding a 'specialist team' to bring her and the baby back 'home'...

..Then there'll be the even more lucrative book and movie deals...???

..and a lifestyle of notorious celebrity.. maybe a reality TV series as well...

Though she'd have an unfair advantage if signed up for "Im a celebrity, get me out of here"...

Can she sing and dance...???

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:31 PM

"Despite a long cut'n'paste about the CPS..."

Fancy a nitpick, by the way, Nigel? It was BY the CPS, not ABOUT the CPS. From the horse's mouth. Much better than a wiki "about," eh, Nige?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM

Doesn't take much to draw out the twists and turns of the conspiracy theorists, does it?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:09 PM

Despite a long cut'n'paste about the CPS it should be noted that they deal with 'Criminal Prosecutions' under English law.
As anything this young woman has done which might be against the interests of this country was very likely done elsewhere I somehow doubt that the CPS will have any say in the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:58 PM

There are a calculated 800 'Jihadists' due to return from Syria - wonder where they will find all those roes and trees !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:55 PM

An interesting caveat from Wiki concerning the Crown Prosecution Service:
The Attorney General for England and Wales superintends the CPS's work and answers for it in Parliament, although the Attorney has no influence over the conduct of prosecutions, except when national security is an issue or for a small number of offences that require the Attorney General's permission to prosecute.