Different types of contemporary folk

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 01:40 PM

We know of his = We know it is

Damn you spill clicker

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 01:32 PM

I can see the sense in using the known phrase "contemporary folk". Everyone knows what is meant and when discussing it in a more academic way such as this, we know of his shorthand for the longer description.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 12:59 PM

I am beginning to detect a coming together here. I see nothing fundamentally wrong with what anyone has put in the last 20 or so posts.
If I can just be allowed a bit of pedantry (I'm trying to play devil's advocate just to clarify and hopefully move closer to a consensus). The movement is against using the term 'contemporary folk song': Jim suggests, 'contemporary songs using folk forms and functions' which is a mouthful even if it is a good description. If they are contemporary songs using Jim's description why can we not use for shorthand 'contemporary folk songs'? If not then it still needs a short phrase that can be trotted out.


Once again, off topic, but I can't let the nasty digs pass, Professor Child's collection was 'inclusive' and included a whole lot of material that didn't quite fit his parameters. The same applies to the Roud Index. It tries to be inclusive. If there are some inconsistencies in approach then such has ever been the case when it comes to material like ours. Arguably better to be inclusive than exclusive and upset a whole load of people whose songs were not included for whatever reason.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Gozz
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 12:17 PM

To support Dick's claim that people believe some song's are traditional, I would point to a story recounted in "Picking Sootie Blackberries" (the songs of Keith Marsden). The person who the story is told about was a respected folk singer in these parts and in Padstow over the May Day festivities. He had big arguements with his son-in-law about Bring us a Barrel, refusing to believe it was not trad until he was actually introduced to the writer.

Some years later, having sung the chorus many times in morris circles and not knowing the origins, I had also made the same assumption until I came to find the words to add it to my repetoire. That makes at least two of us.

Another song to be added to that category would be Dave Webber's May Song. It is a true story that is told there as well about the Padstow local who made comment about him singing it in the Ring O Bells at St Izzy because he wasn't a local. I am sure the list of such songs and stories about them could fill up many threads on their own, so I will just cite those true stories for now.

I would also like to comment on Vincent Black Lightening. It tells a story, from the viewpoint of someone who is outside of the normal boundaries of society, but from a sympathetic point of view. There is a tragic end and perhaps some sort of moral. All seem to me to be elements one would find in folk songs and to my mind more of such elements than I would expect in a pop song.

Just my two penneth.

Gozz

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 12:12 PM

That's what I said, Jim. The songs sung in folk clubs were not generally on radio and TV and I believe that is still true. Most people have no idea where the songs are from. They only know if they like them or not.

I went to see Mark Dowding last night (us Lancastrians have to stick together!) He is very knowledgeable and has a vast array of songs as well as being a brilliant performer. He announced all his songs with the right credits and sang a range from traditional to contemporary. The range of contemporary songs were from writers as wide ranging as Harry Boardman and Stanley Accrington and included a few from Peter Bond and Mike Harding. Had they have not been announced I would have no idea, and cared little, if they were ancient or written last weekend. The point is, they were all right for the folk club. No one was making money out of them. They may have been in copyright but they were not commercial. They were folk songs.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 11:51 AM

"Most people do not know the background of a song unless they have heard it on the TV or radio"
No-no-no
The songs that launched the revival were accessible on neither to a great extent
The mainstays were 'Lloyd/Vaughan Williams's 'Penguin Book of Folk Songs and MacColl and Seeger's 'Singing Island
Peoplew ere looking for an alternative to what was being pumped out by the media
The best of folk song was to be found on The Third Programme, which nobody but the toffs listened to
As Ewan and Peg entitled their four part article for Folk Review "And So We sang"
And yes - one of the side efects of the clubs was that people began to care where the songs came from - you need to dig out some of the magnificent articles from the time - Roy Palmer, Ian Campbell, Karl Dallas, Roy Harris.... a steady stream, sorely missed
You onle have to read the sleeve notes of the Topic or Folkways albums to see how deeply some people became - booklets in themselves, some of them (particularly Folkways)
Jim

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM

nobody went around with a rule book - they didn't have to - they sounded as they sounded and we took to them in thousands

Indeed, Jim. I think you have just summed up my point about what a "folk audience" takes to. Most people do not know the background of a song unless they have heard it on the TV or radio. When they go to a folk club and hear a song that sounds like a folk song to them, as far as they are concerned, it is a folk song. Whether it was handed down from horny hand to horny hand or whether it was written by an accountant last week does not concern them.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 11:17 AM

Can I just add here that this "anything goes" attitude is a very, very new kid on the block
A few years ago I began sending Steve Roud lists and examples of the songs we collected - quite correctly, he chose the traditional ones for his numbering system and ignored those that were not 'folk'
A typical example was a C and W song entitled John F Kennedy we'd recorded from a Traveller whose repertoire also included a version of the Seven Gypsies (from his mother) and several other genuine folk songs
To my knowledge, that has never been given a Roud Number (quite rightly) yet he now argues that everything a traditional singer sings is a traditional song - a screeching U-turn
What new information do we have that suddenly makes pop songs 'folk songs' deserving of Roud numbers - buggered if I can see any
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 11:07 AM

Far more than commercialism Dave
The structure, sound and content of the songs and how they featured within the communities that made them their own identify them as what they are
We came to the folk scene drawn in by songs that had long been established as folk
- nobody went around with a rule book - they didn't have to - they sounded as they sounded and we took to them in thousands
People sang them, listened to them, wrote and argued about them - and went out and looked for more
Go through the lists - the BBC project, the hundreds of collections, the output of labels like Topic.... they are sogs of an identifiable type   
When you asked the source singers you got similar responses
Jean Richie summed it up perfectly when she wrote about her experiences in Ireland
"When you asked for the old songs you got everything from 'Home Sweet Home' to 'Danny Boy'.... then I sang them Barbara Allan; that's when the old folk songs came pouring out".
THey are of a related and identifiable type - nothing to do with the fact that some of them were commercially produced
Jim

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 09:53 AM

"are there hard and fast boundaries between other genres of newly created songs and contemporary folk song?"
Nobody is attempting to create hard and fast anything any more that they are bandying '54 about
As to what a folk song is - as a researcher, you shouldn't need to ask that - it's part of the job description
"And to those that don't accept the term 'contemporary folk song' what alternative are you offering for say MacColl's songs and similar?"
How about contemporary songs using folk forms and functions
These have never been a problem as far as the clubs are concerned (only when researchers who should know better appear not to be able to tell the difference between newly-composed songs and the real thing -
The real bone of contention is the lack of connection between real folk and what has become a large block of material that has nothing whatever to do with or sounds like folk   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 09:14 AM

In a nutshell, I agree that there are no contemporary folk songs as such

That is where you, I and many others disagree!

I like sandman's proposition, but I would go further and say it is not only the tune construction but also the lyrics make a contemporary folk song. Does a component of the old grey whistle test come into play perhaps?

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 08:41 AM

I read your description of the styles used, Dick, and even though I had to use Google to understand some of it, it did make sense. Not sure what you are trying to achieve by pasting random song texts here though :-S

To all and sundry.

We have to accept that all songs were written and/or arranged by someone. They did not spring out of thin air. The difference between folk and commercial songs is that, in the commercial world, someone makes money out them. We have seen, on many occasions, that the two worlds collide and a folk song starts to have some commercial sucess. Think Paul Simon and Scarborough Fair here. We also have commercial songs, IE those that were copyrighted with the specific intent of making money for the composer, that have become accepted as folk songs. The example here could well be Dirty Old Town but there are many more to chose from if that offends anyone!

We must accept therefore that there is an element of crossover and so there should be. I spent ages this morning trying to figure out where all this was leading me and concluded that, for me anyway, it seems to boil down to commercialism. To be in the folk camp means that it cannot be commercial. This, in my mind anyway, covers a lot of what has been discussed about copyright. Even songs within copyright are not making money if they are sung at folk clubs. Well, not yet anyway! So I think copyright is a red herring.

The next thing is what is acceptable to the audience at a folk club and that is where Dick's analysis comes in. There is a certain cadence to the music enjoyed at folk clubs. This combines with the lyrics to make only certain songs enjoyable for most of the audience. I am not saying everyone at a folk club will like all the songs but, chances are, a high proportion of them will enjoy a large percentage of the songs.

In a nutshell, I agree that there are no contemporary folk songs as such but there are many contemporary songs that are enjoyed at folk clubs. However, to most people such a distinction is purely academic so the shorthand "contemporary folk" will continue to be used. Songs within copyright will continue to be sung at folk clubs and no one is going to come and break legs for doing that. New songs will be written and introduced in folk clubs and if they go commercial, good luck to them. I doubt it any of the authors will say you can no longer sing them for free.

It is a complex and interesting topic with no right or wrong answers. Thanks to all who have contributed so far.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 04:49 PM

her is another oneHEV YEW GOTTA LOIGHT, BOY? [HAVE YOU GOT A LIGHT, BOY?]
Allan Smethurst, "The Singing Postman," released 1966.

I had a gal, a really nice gal, down in Wroxham way.
She were wholly nice to me back in the old school days.
She would smile all the while, but Daddy didn't know all.
What she used to say to me behind the garden wall:
"Have you got a light, boy? Have you got a light?"

Then one day she went away. I don't see her no more,
'Til by chance I see her down along the Mundesley shore.
She was there twice as fair. Would she now be true?
So when she sees me passing by, she say, "I'm glad that's you!
Have you got a light, boy? Have you got a light?"

CHORUS: Molly Windley, she smokes like a chimney,
But she's my little nicotine gal.

Now you'll see her and me never more to part.
We would wander hand in hand together in the dark.
Then one night I held her tight in the old back yard.
So when I tried to hold her close, she say, "Now, hold you hard!
Have you got a light, boy? Have you got a light?" CHORUS

By and by, we decide on the wedding day,
So we toddles off to church to hear the preacher say:
"Do you now take this vow to honour all the time?"
Before I has a chance to stop her, she begins to pine:
"Have you got a light, boy? Have you got a light?" CHORUS

Now the doctor tells me a daddy I will be,
So when I ask him, "What's the score?" he say there's only three.
So here I go, cheerio, to see how she do fare.
I know what she will say to me as soon as I get there:
"Have you got a light, boy?"

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 03:12 PM

Just remind me, whoever, are there hard and fast boundaries between other genres of newly created songs and contemporary folk song? And if there are what might those boundaries be?

And to those that don't accept the term 'contemporary folk song' what alternative are you offering for say MacColl's songs and similar?

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:11 PM

Westhoughton Folk Club used to audition potential singers for floor spots on guest nights. But not on the stairs or in a passage. The auditions happened in the club on a singers night. If you were not good enough, you did not get a spot on a guest night. Dunno If they still do it.

Bugger all to do with this thread but of interest to some I suppose.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM

"One organiser used to audition floor singers on the stairs leading to the clubroom."
I'd love to know where this happened
I's been claimed that The Singers Club used to do this, which is utter nonsense - it usually comes as 'interviewed in the passage outside'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: DG&D Dave
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:04 AM

Most of the clubs I have had involvement with have had audiences with a very liberal attitude as to what they will tolerate. Although, I have been to a couple of "Traditional" Music Clubs where the organiser would request details of a strangers songs before offering a floor spot. One organiser used to audition floor singers on the stairs leading to the clubroom.
For me, personally, it's about whether a song "Tells a story" or "Paints a picture" and withstands the test of time, that makes it a folk song. So, with the Beatles in mind, Eleanor Rigby - Yes, She Loves You - No.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:38 AM

Only a few modern songs will become "traditional" in the sense that we understand it. That's not the same as whether they should be regarded as "folk" and acceptable to be performed in a folk club.

Dick said, "in the end the folk decide what is folk" - if by that he meant the people who go to folk clubs will decide, then I entirely agree. Ultimately, the question of what is admissible in a folk club will depend on the tastes of the audience of that particular club - there may be a broad consensus across the folk scene covering the large majority of material, but at the margins it will always come down to what the audience at a particular venue is willing to listen to.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:17 AM

Yes I agree Dick- the people will decide about whether a song becomes 'traditional' in your terms & probably not for years yet, so there's a chance for Buddy Holly - mind you his stuff seems well on the way to me, although his songs are not nearly as popular in 2019 as some if similar vintage- eg 'Que Sera' - I don't have a high opinion of that song, but it's not down to ME to decide.

It's only when you try to allocate songs to categories in advance of that process that you get into trouble!

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:14 AM

Some canards I've gleaned down the years:

It ain't folk if we know who wrote it

Folk can't be about cars, motorbikes, pension schemes or computers

Any apparently cheerful folk song ends with someone's death

It ain't folk if we learn it from sheet music

It ain't folk if it has a drum kit in it

Folk rock is just rock and roll with a fiddle in it

You can turn any song into a folk song by unplugging everything and singing it down your nose

It can't be folk if you're singing it poshly dressed

I'll get me (scruffy) coat...

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

I quite like degustiness. Sort of described the feeling when you are not quite disgusted :-)

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Stewie
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 08:45 PM

And earlier that should have read 'De gustibus ...' Some sort of spell check changed it!

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Stewie
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 08:34 PM

I don't know what happened to my link.

Prince of darkness

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Stewie
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 08:29 PM

Here's an example of the type of song that I would regard as a 'contemporary folksong'. It has an emotional core, is well-crafted, holds a mirror to a community and has a pleasant melody. It is written by Brian McNeil and Ed Miller. I have a mate who regards it as anti-religious, proselytising shite. De gustiness ...

Prince of darkness

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 05:26 PM

your point is once again cods wallop, it comes down to usage ,if people think they are traditional or folk songs then they are, in contrast nobody thinks yesterday is tradtional or a folk song, in the end the folk decide what is folk, it is not decided by you or by a defintion written in 1954.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 05:21 PM

Jim, i have evidence

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 03:06 PM

DtG -- I'm not familiar with Ezra's stuff but had a quick listen to two of his YouTube videos. Seems that they are sort of hybrids of all the attributes I listed. I suppose you could call them contemporary folk. I hear a definite Mumford influence. He has also covered Mungo Jerry's `60s hit "In the Summertime", which, it could be argued, was contemporary folk (skiffle) at the time.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:50 PM

All this from actors, bank clerks and librarians! Wot, no ploughboys and milkmaids?

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:46 PM

"the folk have consistently mistaken them for trad?"
No they didn't Dick - do you have any evidence they did
Even if they dod, you've just said they were mistaken, whic was mu point
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:42 PM

Jim Carropll
do you deny these are folk songs? the folk have consistently mistaken them for trad?

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:39 PM

Jeri , that is my point about melody and use of certain modes , but then we perehaps need to adress style of writing, what is it about MacColls style and the style of Fiddlers green [john connoly]that has made them mistaken by a considerable number as folk songs ,then we have[ bring us a barrel] let us look at it
No man that's a drinker takes ale from a pin
For there is too little good stuff there within.
Four and a half is its measure in full,
Too small for a sup, not enough for a pull.

Chorus (after each verse):
Then bring us a barrel and set it up right,
Bring us a barrel to last out the night;
Bring us a barrel, no matter how high,
We'll drink it up lads, we'll drink it dry.

That poor little firkin's nine gallons in all,
Though the beer it be good, the size is too small.
For lads that are drinkers, like you and like I,
That firkin small barrel too will quickly runs dry.

Then bring forth the puncheon and roll out the butt,
Them's the beast measures before us to put.
Our pots will go round and good ale it will flow
And we'll be content for an hour or so,

and now the correctlyrics [not blankets but jumper]Fiddlers Green
As I walked by the dockside one evening so rare
To view the still waters and take the salt air
I heard an old fisherman singing this song
Oh take me away boys, my time is not long

Chorus (after each verse):
Dress me up in my oilskins and jumper
No more on the docks I'll be seen
Just tell my old ship-mates
I'm taking a trip, mates
And I'll see you someday in Fiddler's Green

Oh Fiddler's Green is a place I've heard tell
Where the fishermen go if they don't go to Hell
Where the weather is fair and the dolphins do play
And the cold coast of Greenland is far, far away

Where the sky's always clear and there's never a gale
Where the fish jump on board with a swish of their tail
Where you lie at your leisure, there's no work to do
And the skipper's below making tea for the crew

When you get back in dock and the long trip is through
There's pubs and there's clubs and there's lasses there too
Where the girls are all pretty and the beer is all free
And there's bottles of rum growing from every tree

Oh I don't want a harp nor a halo, not me
Just give me a breeze and a good rolling sea
And I'll play my old squeezebox as we sail along
With the wind in the rigging to sing me the song
do the two songs have something in common as regards style of writing?
is this why apart from melody they have been mistaken origin wise?

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:30 PM

One way of looking at it whether a song is something you would not be surprised to come across in a folk club (I realise this is a circular argument, but you probably know what I mean). A song need not necessarily reflect traditional structures, but it should carry a coherent message or story and be presented in a way which is compatible with the folk club setting. It's probably music to sit and listen to, rather than to dance to or have in the background. As with so much to do with folk, it's easier to recognise than define. You can't say whether an individual song is "folk", but you do sometimes hear a performer sing a song and wonder "why are they doing that song here?"

The other approach is to ask yourself, if not in a folk club where else would I expect to hear this music? Once, a singer-songwriter with an acoustic guitar would probably once have been described as a folksinger, but so many pop performers also fit this description that it may no longer be valid. Some singer-songwriters have ended up being tagged as "folk" because for some reason their music doesn't comfortably fit into the "pop" category, however they can find a willing audience at a folk club. If there is a more natural audience for a song, it probably doesn't belong in a folk club.

When what is indubitably a pop song gets performed at a folk club it is usually simply as a bit of light relief, but sometimes the more intimate and stripped-down approach of a folk singer can bring a new perspective to a song which brings it into the "folk" circle. This should only be done sparingly, I don't suggest it offers carte-blanche to sing acoustic covers of pop songs, but with the right song and the right singer it can be acceptable, in moderation.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:29 PM

Not sure about that Michael. George Ezra, as mentioned earlier for instance, has all the attributes you list as folk style but does that make his stuff contemporary folk?

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 02:24 PM

DtG -- I'll try to answer your query "what separates contemporary folk from the general pop chart".

To my ear, it's mostly to do with instrumentation and production, as in: Acoustic instruments vs synthesizers; melodic lead vocals vs rap-style vocals; mellow percussion (perhaps on "World" instruments) vs thumping rhythms; smooth vocal harmonies vs gospel-shout backups.

Back in the day, all those characteristics could often be found on the same LP (Led Zeppelin III is a good example). These days, not so much, probably because marketing concerns have long superseded artistic ones in the music industry.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 01:11 PM

Been sorting stuff out for my Mother's dementia care today and more of the same tomorrow followed by the local folk club so not much chance to assimilate the info until Tuesday. Some promising stuff on first glance. Dick's musical explanation looks interesting as does Stewie's piece.

I shall keep dipping in

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 12:19 PM

I've said it before, "pop" is today's folk music. If you attend a folk club....don't know of any round here, you will listen to traditional music or popular music which appeals to people with an ear for the cadencies of traditional folk....road songs are a typical example Bobby Magee, Leaving on a Jet Plane, even Paperback writer, or any bluesy stuff from the stones that tells some sort of story,
A large slice of snobbery stops would be folkies from enjoying anything pop orientated.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM

DtG - haven't time to read this thread yet.. only your OP so far...

you know me by now.. very open minded and eclectic tastes in music...

In the 1970s in my early to mid teens I definitely considered Led Zep 111 to be a folk rock LP...

but then again, what did I know back then... my seductive gateway drug into 'folk' was Donovan and Lindisfarne.....

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 11:05 AM

I'd ask what you thought the difference is between a "contemporary folk song" and traditional one, but I'm not getting into that "what is folk" bull again.
I think what Dave meant by it is more about style than anything else. Newly written songs in a style that sounds traditional.

And for the record, I've come to believe a song is a song is a song, and "folk" has to do with oral tradition and/or style. Thinking about anything more than just "I like it" or "I don't like it". Leads to never-resolved opining on the internet, and, for me, that's a waste of time.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 10:55 AM

jeri the problem with that is that a song like born today because it is poular cannot be a contemporary folk song , i disagree with that

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 10:41 AM

Bulldozing the Past again Steve
You forgot to add (in your opinion)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 10:20 AM

Stewie
Very interesting quote. I can identify with the looking glass approach but the jewel is typical of the 'early folklorists' who had a very romantic way of looking at the subject as opposed to the modern scientific approach. They tried to explain everyday phenomena in terms of ancient religion and the supernatural, almost to a man (or woman).
One of the best writers on folklore today is our very own Steve Roud who dismisses much of the romantic conjecture. (Sorry for thread drift)

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 10:12 AM

The difference between contemporary folk and pop is whether or not the song becomes popular.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM

I'm not sure I hear anything that is specifically "folk" even in Dirty Old Town. It doesn't seem to draw on traditional structures or employ many of the melodic or lyrical devices that I'd identify with traditional music. Compare with, say, the songs of Alasdair Roberts, which are original but much more obviously connected to the tradition.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM

To go back to Dave's question about the difference between pop and c-folk, whilst I think most of us are agreed that we can't place finite boundaries, generally one way of looking at it is the first is written specifically for the pop-scene and the other is written for the folk-scene. Off hand I can't think of any writer who is consciously writing for both. For a pop song to enter the realms of folk is always possible and has always happened as far back as we have records for. This is perhaps where the contention comes in. How many established folk singers would need to perform a particular pop song for it to be accepted as folk by some of us? I say 'some of us' because everyone is going to set that parameter in a different place.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Stewie
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 09:36 AM

Many years ago, I wrote the following in an introduction to a themed concert of mining songs. It may be of interest to Dave in this context:

I am drawn to Archie Green’s formulation of ‘folksongs’ in terms of ‘jewel’ and ‘glass’ symbolism. The early folklorists, who concentrated mostly on textual analysis, sought a song’s emotional core as ‘a luminous jewel locked within the poetry of the piece’ whereas Green prefers to place this element outside the song - in the mine shaft, in the mining shack, in the union hall, in the saloon - and view it rather ‘as a looking glass reflecting the joys and sorrows, or aspirations and fears, of a community’. This concept of ‘folksong’ as a mirror of the interplay of emotions within a community enables the incorporation of contemporary songs within a loose definition of ‘folksong’. I believe the traditional and contemporary songs I have selected for this presentation have the emotional core that Green describes and a few even reflect what folklorist, MacEdward Leach, has referred to as ‘an expressive form of intense beauty’.

Anyhow, that’s still my take on it.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 08:28 AM

where does the Fields of Athenry fit in? it's a football song (much condemned!) in Glasgow, regarded as traditional in England & a big pop hit in Ireland...

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 07:45 AM

Is it the melody of a song that defines it's contemporary folkiness,
the contained stanzas, or a mixture of both? Does it have to be a ballad?

Would a composition such as "Angie" by the stones satisfy the criteria?

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 07:33 AM

there are always exceptions that break a rule ther occasional popular song that is written or when performed acoustically example" the shortest story harry chapin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix-Yj_Md2no

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 07:24 AM

there seems to be musically a melodic folk style that defines that which is normally accepted as folk style in the uk.
on analysis this involves the use of the dorian and mixolydian scale as well as the major scale not many other scales are used, one exception being one song of dave goulders that use the locrian scale, melodically they generally appear to stick wthin certain melodic boundaries , unlike jazz they do not generally involve improvisation.
as a general rule most songwriters writing in this uk contemp folkstyle, avoid twelve bar blues, occasionally there are exceptions.often musically they avoid diminshed chords.
to suggest any song is a contemporary folk is as daft as some of the twaddle we get from a regular poster on this forum   " we are all going on a summer holiday is a contemporary folk song", no it is not it is a naff pop song.
as for style of writing there semmes to be less constriction that the melodic boundaries that are often used

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM

"I would be puzzled by someone playing Ava Max's "Sweet but Psycho", no matter how much I like it!"

So would I.

Mind you, Talking Head's "Psycho Killer" quite often turns up in "folkie" sessions and I've heard it performed by bands and solo artists alike.

To me, it's not what I'd think of as folk music by any stretch of the imagination although I've always liked the song.

Mind you, I don't know how much of the material which gets introduced is just an an old folky's way of trying to convince the younger generation that he/she is still "in touch" ... i.e. like Gordon Brown claiming to be an Arctic monkeys fan...   as opposed to a conscious effort to introduce a new song into the folk tradition?

Last year at Linlithgow Festival, one of these old "bald, pony tail and earring" strummers even treated us to George Ezra's "Shotgun" which was very high in the charts at the time. Another good song but not necessarily one that we need to hear in a folk club or singaround.