BS: Change of sex prior to 18

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:27 AM

There's a great scifi story from the 50s by Robert Heinlein where a girl grows up, joins the service, is seduced and impregnated, has a baby, and is told in the recovery ward that she was born a hermaphrodite, and after the pregnancy her female set of organs are useless, so the surgeons have taken the male organs and set them up to see if they will develop, which they do. The newly male narrator now joins the time service, and in the course of his adventures goes back in time and seduces him/herself. At the end of the story he addresses the world: "I know who I am, but who are all you zombies?"
The story is worth reading because it also contains the BYLAWS OF TIME.

Which brings me to my question: Say you have gender dysphoria. Rather then go through a lot of major plumbing changes, what if there was a pill that could change your mind? Wouldn't that be as acceptable a solution? Mind you, I'm not saying such a pill exists, or even is possible. But wouldn't it be worth it to find out?

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:53 AM

A solution for whom? Society which doesn't want to deal with us? Doesn't feel like a solution to me. My lithium is not a solution to my bipolar disease. Not needing lithium any more would be a solution. Sure, I stay out of hospitals, but my issue is not solved, I just have a bandaid. Imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:15 PM

Okay, let me restate it somewhat, since I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm trying to understand.

Given that someone has gender dysphoria. The existing 'treatment' (NOT solution) is extensive surgery. I'm asking (not suggesting) that if there was a treatment that simply put the brain into consonance with its existing somatic layout, would that not be as acceptable a 'treatment', if not more so?

I appreciate your take, and I apologize if I come off sounding condescending. I do that without meaning to and I know from experiencing it myself that it is irritating.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 01:26 PM

First, figure out if the "gender dysphoria"* is a problem for the individual it would apply to, or other people. "Fixing" something that isn't broken, except in the eyes of busybodies is stupid and obnoxious. If there were a pill, I think people could be offered it, but forcing people to take it is "conversion therapy" through drugs. Bad idea.

*I'm unsure this is a reasonable term for being in the wrong gender body. It implies confusion. The folks I've known who felt they should have had different plumbing weren't confused. I supposed some people could be.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:53 PM

Jeri:

I did not understand your comment. And I feel you did not understand mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:18 PM

I don't care for the term at all. The problem in large part lies in the fact that if you have a dick at birth you'll be railroaded relentlessly into boyhood, and if you have a vulva you'll be railroaded relentlessly into girlhood. Whatever the unhappiness experienced by children who feel that their feelings and desires are at odds with their genitals is magnified multiple times by society's rigid and unforgiving forcing. We have a long way to go with this and it sometimes feels that this particular journey has hardly started.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 10:49 AM

Robomatic, none taken. Yes, the magic pill would solve the mismatch between body and mind, but that mismatch may not be the perceived problem.
Railroading is a good term, Steve Shaw, and thank you for using the word vulva.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:09 PM

perhaps of interest,change of sex for fish
Observer
Water
£30bn bill to purify water system after toxic impact of contraceptive pill
Drug firms oppose an EU call for controls on potent chemicals that have been blamed for the gender mutation of freshwater fish

Robin McKie, science editor

Sat 2 Jun 2012 22.35 BST
First published on Sat 2 Jun 2012 22.35 BST

This article is over 6 years old
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Men fly fishing at Trimpley Reservoir near Arley Worcestershire England Uk
Falls in the fish population have been linked to the main ingredient in contraceptive pills. Photograph: David Bagnall/Alamy

Britain faces a £30bn bill to clean up rivers, streams and drinking water supplies contaminated by synthetic hormones from contraceptive pills. Drastic reductions in these chemicals, which have been linked to collapses in fish populations, are proposed in the latest European Union water framework directive.

But the plan, which would involve upgrading the sewage network and significantly increasing household water bills, is controversial. Water and pharmaceutical companies dispute the science involved and argue the costs are prohibitive. By contrast, many environmental researchers say the proposal is sound. Ethinyl estradiol (EE2), the main active ingredient of contraceptive pills, can trigger a condition known as intersex in freshwater fish, which has caused significant drops in populations in many species – although no links have yet been made with human health. "That does not mean we will not find impacts in future," said toxicologist Professor Richard Owen of Exeter University. "But do we want to wait until we see effects in humans, as we did with thalidomide and BSE, or do we act before harm is done?"
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Preventing EE2 from having environmental or health effects is difficult, however. "Ethinyl estradiol is a very potent chemical," said Professor Susan Jobling of Brunel University. "It is designed to have effects in the human body at very low levels. That means it will also have a significant impact in the environment."

More than 2.5 million women take birth control pills in the UK. Their EE2 content is excreted and washed into sewage systems and rivers. Even at very low concentrations, this chemical has harmful effects on fish. Males suffer reduced sperm production, with severe effects on populations. In one recent trial, in a Canadian lake, researchers added EE2 until levels in the water reached five parts per trillion (ppt), a minute concentration. Yet fish populations suffered severe problems with one species, the fathead minnow, collapsing completely.

In Britain, research by Jobling found that at 50 sites 80% had noticeable levels of EE2 in their water. The closer a downstream sampling point was to a sewage works, the higher the level of EE2 tended to be. Similar levels are found elsewhere in Europe.

To reduce dangers posed by these concentrations, the EU proposed in January that it would set a level of 0.035ppt for ethinyl estradiol in water in Europe. Achieving that target will not be easy, as Owen and Jobling point out in a recent issue of Nature. They calculate that, for a town of about 250,000 people, it would cost about £6m to install a system that uses granular activated carbon to cut EE2 levels, with a further £600,000 being needed to operate the system each year. To upgrade the 1,400 sewage waterworks in England and Wales would cost a total of more than £30bn, they add. "The question we have to ask ourselves is straightforward," said Owen, a former head of environment and health at the UK Environment Agency. "Are we willing to pay up or would we rather settle for environmental damage associated with flexible fertility?"

A final decision on introducing the EU's plans to cut EE2 levels will be taken in November by the European parliament. Water and pharmaceutical companies have already begun to lobby to block the plan and it is expected other parties will become involved. "There is a danger that the battle will take place behind closed doors," said Jobling. "The public need to be told what the issues are and make its voice heard. It may be happy to pay the extra cost and so avoid the risk of ill-health in the future."

Nor is it necessary that the public should pick up the tab, added Owen. "The pharmaceutical industry makes billions out of the drugs and treatments it sells. If these pollute the environment, what is wrong with making them pay to have it cleaned up?"

However, the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry rejected the idea and disputed the scientific basis of the EU plans. "Feminisation in fish populations has been observed in a number of field surveys, but a detrimental impact on the level of those populations has not been established," said a spokesman. "It would be premature to require such intensive upgrading of waste water treatment."

An official at Water UK, the trade body for the water industry, also attacked the plan and criticised the European commission for focusing on "end of pipe treatments" rather than tackling the issue of what enters the waste water stream.

Subject: RE: BS Change of sex prior to 18
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 11:59 AM

Thanks Mrrzy this thread cleared at least one thing up for me, along with some conversation with friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Spring is here
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 07:36 AM

I was sorry to lean that Senofou had left, even though she and I had had numerous head-to-heads - I'll miss her gentle touch

In fairness, a Mod made it clear about here leaving and her attitude towards the 'mean boy' referred to
There are few 'mean boys' on this forum and those there are are far worse and more easily spottable than what was said here
Just wanted to put the record straight -
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Stilly River Sage - PM
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:28 PM
Someone sent me a note, disappointed that Senoufou was leaving the BS forum because she was trounced by another member. So I read most of this thread, and I have to say in this instance that "antediluvian" is not meant unkindly and it does seem rather accurate. Perhaps in the time away from the BS section she will consider that there is a reason people object to the statement that "One is born with either XX or XY chromosomes, and nothing can alter that.
One can dress as one wishes, adopt the appearance of either sex and have whatever sexuality one prefers.
But even a 'sex-change operation' can't alter one's sex."

I've looked for, but can't find (so far) a link to a radio science discussion I heard recently about research that indicates that human gender has the potential to be much more fluid than we understand right now. That the gene fragment that allows fish and frogs to change from female to male, if a population suddenly finds itself without a male, it's in humans also. And it's beginning to look like the "gender" process is far more biologically complicated than 'you're just one thing or another. Period.'

---

I had deleted this from the thread you posted it in. Mudcat's been wonky, so it didn't get moved until just now (12:44 Mudcat time) --Mod

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 09:51 AM

People's opinions change. Stubbornness and the internet phenomenon of "but in 1992, you said blahblahblah" try to prevent change.
Most folks learn new things and adapt their opinions.

When I first went into the military, there were lots of "n***er" jokes. They ALWAYS made me very uncomfortable, but I was white (still am), so I guess they figured I was "in the club". I first ignored them, then I got to the point where I gave them a piece of my mind. It eventually stopped (at least around me), but I think the main reason was the culture changed. Regular folks started sharing a piece of their minds. Including regular folks who were "in the club".

Society itself resists change. It did with race issues, and it does with gender issues. It will take "regular folks" who are smart and considerate thinking about the issue and adapting their thinking to change society.

The thing with Senoufou started with someone saying she was part of the problem. Well, she is. She is smart, and she's nice, but she's looking at things the way "they've always been". No adapting, no change. No consideration of anything except chromosomes. And while I see disagreement, I see no insult. I see no reason for her to have slammed the door on the way out.

The door's not locked, and we're still here, as opinionated as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jos
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 02:28 PM

I really don't think she slammed the door - she just closed it quietly, and considerately.

I expect she still looks in now and then - so in case she does,
'I hope you are well, Eliza, and your lovely husband too. Just keep on eating the crumpets and sitting on the bench in the sun.'


[I left for several years at one time (someone had called me a twat), but I didn't mention it to anyone so probably nobody noticed.]

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 03:23 PM

The thing with Senoufou started with someone saying she was part of the problem. Well, she is."
I do not agree she is not part of the problem,[ anymorethan you are part of a problem] what problem exactly are you referring to ? please be more specific, before you say something like this , how is she part of what problem. the original post is change of sex prior to 18 please explain how her remark about chromasones is a problem in relation to the point of the thread [change of sex prior to 18]

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 04:07 PM

Dick, I suppose my whole statement about "regular" people changing their attitudes just went straight over your head?

I've been corrected before when equating sex with gender. Sex is, in my interpretation, about chromosomes and physical attributes, whereas gender takes how people see themselves into consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 06:38 PM

I did feel cross and just a bit dejected when I read the post I later reacted to. You and I frequently prowl around each other, Jeri (way too much, probably), so I appreciate your balanced and measured reaction to my posts on this topic. Maybe I was a bit too sharp in my response to Senoufou but I think I was being direct rather than insulting.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 08:05 PM

Steve, I think we're usually on the same side of issues, but our personalities get in the way. I appreciate directness - what some call "brutal honesty".
I feel like I'm talking too much about the off-topic stuff that usually signals a thread's going down the tubes. I'll stop, and stick to the subject.

In this case, to put it simply, we're in a state of flux. We're learning. Some people have figured things out before me, and some will after. I've always been gender-weird, but I'm cisgender, and I have much to learn. The point is, I care, I'm capable of adapting, and I'm listening.

People create their own place in the world. They decide who they are. Everybody should have the freedom to do that, and those who want to force everybody else into some pre-designed mold because it's easier for them...well, let's hope the inability to do that can be only their problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 08:11 PM

Thanks for that. On this matter at least, we're in total agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 05:57 PM

jeri you are out of order you compare senofous comment to people using the word nigger ,that is far worse than anything steve said, cop on,you need to change that attitude

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 07:08 PM

The Sandman wrote: jeri you are out of order you compare senofous comment to people using the word nigger ,that is far worse than anything steve said, cop on,you need to change that attitude

I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 07:19 PM

Hone your post-reading skills, Dick. That is absolutely NOT what Jeri was doing. This thread has pitched us into delicate areas in more ways than one and it pays to read carefully what people have said and to choose your own words carefully. And, for the record, Senoufou and I have enjoyed many very cordial exchanges here. I thought that the opening post in this thread was seriously out of kilter with the beginnings of progress we've made in understanding what trans people go through both in their own minds and in the ways they are often treated badly in society, and turning the thing round into complaints about who goes into which toilets and changing rooms reeks of intolerance. We have a long way to go and I think it's fair to be direct with people who seem to have not even started the journey. It is a discussion forum after all, and there's no shortage of controversial issues here. The outcome is highly regrettable but I didn't hound her off the forum, and I hope she'll come back.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 07:22 PM

Beg pardon, not the opening post but Senoufou's first response. I've had a long day.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 03:54 AM

I hope you and Jeri have a nice day, Senoufou would not have left if you were able to discuss in a polite way, you will never change someones opinion by being aggressive

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:20 AM

Tea just came down my nose...

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:36 AM

As ever, Dick, you just unthinkingly entrench your position, this time with a remarkably unintelligent post (and do note that I'm attacking the post, not the man). I've enjoyed many a pleasant banter with Senoufou, but on this occasion she posted with what looked to me like an unacceptable degree of intolerance, inflexibility and lack of understanding (certainly with a lack of empathy). I addressed that with a level of directness I thought was appropriate and I managed to do it without name-calling. I'm thick-skinned enough to take criticism of that on the chin (I've admitted more than once that I could perhaps have been a bit gentler) but I'm not about to change my mind. I regret her decision to leave and hope that she'll be back soon. Now that's enough of me defending myself. You carry on with the sniping if you like. I'm unimpressed, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 08:31 AM

Coffee is worse than tea, especially with cream and sugar.

Howsabout we let Steve's be the last Miss Manners-related post and get back to the subject if we're still posting here?

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 10:04 AM

Agreed, Jeri. What else is there to say?

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 10:07 AM

Maybe, since this thread topic got sidetracked so early,
there ought to be two separate threads:

one for segregated toilets (sorry Mrrzy, bathrooms)

and one for gender/sex before the age of eighteen?

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 10:18 AM

Well I'm learning stuff here - for instance, that there's a word 'cisgender' which I'd never heard of - and other 'stuff'. Let's keep the thread going, and drop the accusatory stuff, eh? None of us can claim to be whiter than white, let he who is without sin, yadda yadda?

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 10:44 AM

queer theory

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 01:00 PM

The reason I've learned some things (such as words) is because I know some folks who are LGBTQ, and I try to learn things. I figure I could learn things even if I didn't know people. I also like it when people can be who they are, and do what they want, as long as it doesn't harm other people. Of course, then you have to define what "harm" means.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:41 PM

I started this thread , the intention was to discuss amicably ,Senoufou has decided to leave,because of unnecessary rudeness, a comparison to someone using the word nigger was particularly out of place as she is married to an African.
Jeri and Steve will you never leasrn

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:53 PM

No irony there then... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: John P
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 06:25 PM

Sandman, that would be a nice theory if it had ever happened. No one has compared anything to the N word. As has been said before. Why continue to push this false narrative?

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 06:43 PM

Nobody said that. It's not in the thread, and it hasn't been deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 08:55 PM

Thanks for the translation!

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:57 AM

”The reason I've learned some things (such as words) is because I know some folks who are LGBTQ, and I try to learn things. I figure I could learn things even if I didn't know people. I also like it when people can be who they are, and do what they want, as long as it doesn't harm other people. Of course, then you have to define what "harm" means.”

I completely agree Jeri. I know people (and have relatives who are) LGBTQ, including two trans- people, and their status never enters our conversations - they are just ‘people’ - so the word ‘cisgender’ has never cropped up in anything I’ve heard or read until this thread. I had to look it up, and I’m glad your post brought it to my attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:09 AM

I have to say that I'm staggered at the speed and willingness with which Ireland has embraced the changes on Same Sex marriage - the times certainly are a-changing here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:06 AM

John P wrote; "Sandman, that would be a nice theory if it had ever happened. No one has compared anything to the N word. As has been said before. Why continue to push this false narrative? "

Jeri wrote: People's opinions change. Stubbornness and the internet phenomenon of "but in 1992, you said blahblahblah" try to prevent change.
Most folks learn new things and adapt their opinions.

When I first went into the military, there were lots of "n***er" jokes. They ALWAYS made me very uncomfortable, but I was white (still am), so I guess they figured I was "in the club". I first ignored them, then I got to the point where I gave them a piece of my mind. It eventually stopped (at least around me), but I think the main reason was the culture changed. Regular folks started sharing a piece of their minds. Including regular folks who were "in the club".

Society itself resists change. It did with race issues, and it does with gender issues. It will take "regular folks" who are smart and considerate thinking about the issue and adapting their thinking to change society.

The thing with Senoufou started with someone saying she was part of the problem. Well, she is. She is smart, and she's nice, but she's looking at things the way "they've always been". No adapting, no change. No consideration of anything except chromosomes. And while I see disagreement, I see no insult. I see no reason for her to have slammed the door on the way out.

The door's not locked, and we're still here, as opinionated as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 12:40 PM

I guess that's where Dick got it. I was talking about the jokes, and the mindset that allowed them, and the way people changed their opinions. I wrote it six days after Senoufou said she was leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 01:33 PM

jeri as a mod you need to think before you write , the fact you wrote it six days after means senoufou is even more unlikely to come back try thinking ahead

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:03 PM

A person we know as a pleasant and jovial poster makes a very wrong-headed contribution which is riddled with intolerance for and lack of understanding of a troubled minority who are badly treated by society and who have brought nothing on themselves. I'm really sorry, but in a discussion forum well known for its no-holds-barred approach to issues it would be dishonest to withhold one's firmly opposing opinion just because it's a loveable member we disagree with. There was no name-calling and no insults. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:33 PM

Yeah, and I'm not wasting time and further diverting the thread trying to explain what I plainly wrote to someone who isn't capable of understanding it.

When it gets to this point, perhaps it's time to leave it.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 04:03 PM

So let's get down to numbers. Are there any correct figures of people who have gender reassignment issues? Has anyone made an estimation of our population percentage with gender issues?

If it were, say less than 0.1 % of the population, I wouldn't want to loose friends over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 04:39 PM

No, let's not.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:39 AM

Define "issues."

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:44 AM

Very good question.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: BobL
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 03:10 AM

"if what you worry about is which toilets and changing rooms people use, then "antediluvian" is too kind a word for you."

"There was no name-calling and no insults."

Steve, I must respectfully disagree: your earlier comment was hardly polite, even if the word "antediluvian" could be literally true of attitudes as old as history.
A lot of old attitudes are changing (nothing new there), and a good thing too, but your own position comes over as "this is how it's going to be, and anyone who disagrees had better get used to it." Gender issues are sensitive matters, and much tact will be needed in dealing with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 03:54 AM

Not to labour the point overly but on a recent relevant BBC radio prog, a point was made about athletes who were fortunate to have characteristics that help them succeed. And we enjoy their success.

Should we now have high jump events for different heights of people? Much like the Paralympics have numerous classes?
And there is a fear that if the prize is big enough there are athletes who would opt for surgery to give them some advantage. If you poo-poo the idea think again - is doping any different? At what age did FloJo die, and why?

Transgender in sport would come under this umbrella notion. I see no reason not to view it with that perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 04:51 AM

Characterising someone as antediluvian (or Luddite, or troglodytical, or similar) is at the very mildest end of the lexicon of "insults" levelled on this forum, and, in my view, is far more eyeballingly critical than insulting. And my sentence, the one you quoted, starts with the conditional "if." As in, "if the cap fits..." The invitation there is to defend, modify or correct yourself. She chose instead to take umbrage. I suggest you reread the post that got my goat in the first place and judge again who was being the more insulting. Not as though it's a competition, mind.

I'm perfectly happy to accept that Senoufou's persona here is fifty times more lovable than mine (I could try harder but will probably stay as I am), but be fair.

Good post there, Mr Red. An argument I've often made myself. Sadly, though, my enthusiasm for athletics has melted away because the irrational part of me suspects that everyone involved is on drugs. Cycling, even more so.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 05:16 AM

"Not to labour the point overly but on a recent relevant BBC radio prog, a point was made about athletes who were fortunate to have characteristics that help them succeed. "
This was a regular criticism made against athletes from the Soviet Bloc
Jim