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BS: Change of sex prior to 18
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Subject: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: The Sandman Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:35 AM If young people are not allowed to vote until they are 18, should they be allowed to change sex before they are 18?, curious at to mudcat members views on this |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Iains Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:50 AM My view is that the entire process needs root and branch reform. Undoudtedly some are born the "transgender" sex as some are born gay or lesbian. How frequently this happens I have no idea. I suspect the process, as it exists today, occurs far too rapidly, to too many children. Just who are the "experts" that determine these outcomes and what are their qualifications. It is a profound decision for a child, especially when the required surgery is contemplated. I would like surgery postponed until much closer to adulthood(while recognising for some sooner may be better) I am suspicious of who, if anyone, looks to the best interests of the child. I would like a system where a neutral observer questions each step of the way on behalf of the child. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Senoufou Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:50 AM Nobody can 'change sex'. One is born with either XX or XY chromosomes, and nothing can alter that. One can dress as one wishes, adopt the appearance of either sex and have whatever sexuality one prefers. But even a 'sex-change operation' can't alter one's sex. If, for example, a person born with the male sex decides that he is actually female, that doesn't give him the right to enter private female spaces such as toilets or changing rooms. Or to be assigned to a female prison. The same would apply of course to a person born female declaring they are a man and entering private male spaces. I think 18 is quite early enough for a person to decide they wish to present themselves as the opposite sex. Young people are often 'in a state of flux'about their identity, and at the mercy of social media which promotes all sorts of fads and ideas. If they are administered with hormones or even operated on, they may regret this later, having been rendered sterile for life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Bonzo3legs Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:10 AM I agree Senoufou. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: DMcG Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:11 AM Nobody can 'change sex'. One is born with either XX or XY chromosomes, and nothing can alter that While that may be the scientific definition, I doubt if anyone posting here has decided on the sex of the majority of the people they meet based on a genetic analysis. So to me that doesn't really address the question. The social aspect is what is being considered here. I have a close relative who is transgender. And she is far happier and more sociable than he ever was. Just about every one of my relatives who I have spoken to about it has been perfectly comfortable and only distressed at all my the main decades of misery he endured in fear we could not accept it. As far as children are concerned, I would be extremely wary but not totally opposed. There are cases as well where the gender is physically indeterminate and some decision has to be made: in those cases at least it is sensible the child is involved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:17 AM Interesting and very moving film - 'Boy Erased' about a youth sent to be 'cured' of homosexuality |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Senoufou Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:41 AM That is most interesting DMcG. Do you mind my asking if your relative has had surgery/hormone treatment, or has just changed their appearance in various ways to present as a female? I'm glad she is happy now, and feels complete in herself. I would not want anyone to be unhappy in themselves, and have no problem at all with how anybody wishes to be seen and known in society. We often chat to a transgender person (man-to-woman) called Ariel, who serves at the checkout in a store we sometimes visit. She is very sweet, most polite and helpful but a bit shy. I just have problems with, for example, sports contestants entering a competition as a woman, but with all the musculature and strength of a man. To me this isn't fair. The sexes have always entered sports events segregated by sex, because as is obvious, males are stronger. I'm also very uncomfortable with men self-identifying as women and demanding admittance to changing rooms and toilets specifically designated for females. This is dangerous and is an invasion of female privacy and security. I have no children, but I'd be very averse to my child desiring an operation or hormone treatment at a young age. I would have no worries though if he/she wished to cross-dress, present as the opposite sex etc. Eighteen is soon enough to undergo such drastic and irreversible changes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: DMcG Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:54 AM Changing gender is an extremely long and quite intrusive process in the UK. You need to spend several years "cross dressing" and have several psychiatric assessments before surgery can be approved, then more as you go through the whole medication and surgery. She had the final surgery a few years ago. We do not live nearby, so we were not party to the process while it happened, and as I hinted he retreated from almost all social situations, so very few people knew anything until afterwards. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jeri Date: 25 Feb 19 - 09:47 AM Transgender folks know from quite an early age that they are transgender. They KNOW. Forcing someone born male to develop secondary sex characteristics, mainly the changed voice because YOU (the generic you) don't feel as comfortable with a girl being a girl as the kid does just makes life harder for her. I don't know if it's as hard for trans boys and secondary female characteristics. Fundamentally, I'm opposed to "other people" butting their noses into folks' personal decisions. Those who advocate an age limit want to force these kids to go through puberty as the "wrong" gender. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM One does not "decide" to be transgender. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM This is a very complex issue and one which humanity is still in the early stages of getting to grips with. Seeing the world as consisting of full males and full females only is as outmoded a view as trying to force left-handed kids to write right-handed. We've made progress in the last couple of decades but the understanding and empathy we need to achieve in order to behave humanely towards our fellow human beings is still a long way off. One thing's for sure: if what you worry about is which toilets and changing rooms people use, then "antediluvian" is too kind a word for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: The Sandman Date: 25 Feb 19 - 11:58 AM Interesting and very moving film - 'Boy Erased' about a youth sent to be 'cured' of homosexuality, what relevance is this , this thread is not about homosexuality |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Senoufou Date: 25 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM It's relevant because it's about a youth not being accepted for how they are or how they see themselves, and suffering accordingly. Similar to a transgender young person whose parents may not want to come to terms with their transgenderism. Steve. you're a man and most likely have a different standpoint to that of women who feel that 'their' spaces should be respected. A Ladies' toilet is a sanctum, where women can see to their make-up, adjust their clothes, seek reassurance from their friends and so on. I would definitely not want to be in a female toilet (not just the cubicle but the washbasin area and, if young, using the sanitary products dispenser etc) when a person who is physically a man (even though presenting as a woman) walks in and claims the space too. I would be ill-at-ease and a little afraid to be honest. Of course, this problem is easily solved with individual toilets that are unisex, each with a washbasin etc, but that costs a lot more to provide. If 'antideluvian' is too kind a word for me Steve, I have every confidence in your ability to find a far more insulting epithet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Iains Date: 25 Feb 19 - 12:37 PM Attagirl Senoufou! or in this pc world should that be a high five. I appreciate exactly what you are saying and I agree. If society is going to change, the infrastructure needs to be on a par with the changes, or better still, ahead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: meself Date: 25 Feb 19 - 12:58 PM "One is born with either XX or XY chromosomes" "sports contestants entering a competition as a woman, but with all the musculature and strength of a man" Now, coincidentally, I was half-listening/half-sleeping to a radio show on just this subject the other night/morning, forcussing on several 'female' athletes who had had rather traumatic experiences in this regard, and about how the Olympics, in particular, has dealt with the issue over the decades. These were women who, they said, had never had reason to question their sex until they won a major race (they were all runners), and complaints were lodged. Then some eggheads were weighing in on the biology of it, and what I gathered was that, in females, the chromosomal situation is not always so black-and-white. And then I was back in the house I grew up in, and I was supposed to be running a marathon, but I couldn't find my running shoes, and I crawled into that little cubby-hole under the stairs ... and ... I don't remember after that ... but I woke up in a cold sweat .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:17 PM "what relevance is this , this thread is not about homosexuality" No it isn't Dick, but all these subject are linked by a largely religion driven belief that they are "unnatural" and therefore curable It was a passing recommendation - no more As far as Sen's comment is concerned, I tend to go along with Steve in that it is a complex subjects with a lot of preconceptions and prejudices to scramble over I remember my own shock once while visiting a pub on The Isle of Dogs, I was 'making myself comfortable' in the jacks when a flamboyantly attired, very attractive young woman walked in, hoisted up her skirt and joined me at the next urinal I had forgotten that there was a drag show going on in the back room Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:20 PM By the way - discussions such as these would be so much pleasanter anf more productive if eejits didn't use terms like PC The opposite is politically incorrect - I suppose some people can't help themselves being permanently in the wrong Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Senoufou Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:25 PM Ha! Thank you very much Bonzo and Iains! :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Senoufou Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:51 PM I should of course have written 'antedeluvian' not 'antideluvian'. I have nothing against floods. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Iains Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:45 PM By the way - discussions such as these would be so much pleasanter anf more productive if eejits didn't use terms like PC The opposite is politically incorrect - I suppose some people can't help themselves being permanently in the wrong Flaming or just skipped a therapy session? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jeri Date: 25 Feb 19 - 03:06 PM I very much think that one should figure out who has the problem, and allowing it to be theirs. Trans women in bathrooms doesn't bother me. If it did, I'd figure it was me who had the problem. People putting on makeup and chatting isn't really a gender-specific issue. Someone who appears to be a woman going into a men's bathroom is (IMO) going to freak more people out than if she went into a women's bathroom, entered a stall and closed the door. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: John P Date: 25 Feb 19 - 04:05 PM Bad news for those who don't what transgender women in the womens' bathroom: they've been around and dressing as women for centuries, and have been using the bathroom the entire time. You just never noticed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: John P Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:34 PM Maybe we should try to get rid of "PC" and replace it with "SA", for socially acceptable. Most of the time, it seems like PC isn't really political correctness. It's just normal, everyday correctness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Feb 19 - 06:02 PM The spelling is antediluvian. It's good to see the likes of Jim, meself (not me, though I share his views, but the person of that soubriquet) John P, Jeri, Mrrzy and DMcG giving their sane, modern views about a topic that all too easily attracts the yah-boo-you're-just-being-PC knee jerk brigade. These people are increasingly being left behind on all sorts of things, homosexuality, gay marriage, race, HIV prejudice and the subjugation of women. Ignorant gender prejudice is another such. If you think that XX vs XY is the alpha and omega of this, or if toilets worry you so much, you need to get real, and get a bit more educated. There's no mild way of putting it. You are part of the problem, frankly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Senoufou Date: 25 Feb 19 - 06:27 PM There we are Steve, you haven't disappointed me. Insulting posters on here is definitely your forte. I'm out of here. Cheerio everyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: John P Date: 25 Feb 19 - 06:32 PM Sorry Senoufou, but your first post in this discussion was seriously insulting. Do you really not know that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:48 PM I'm not out to insult anyone. But there are are times when it is important to speak directly to people whose minds seem to be closed. The thing is that it's so easy to hide behind this "bugger off, you are just being PC" brainlessness, as three people in this thread have done. This attitude feeds into the repression of people who genuinely can't help the position they find themselves in. They live in a state of lifelong personal turmoil, fuelled in large part by the prejudices of the majority, while you fret about what toilets they can use. Wow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Feb 19 - 09:34 PM XO XXY XYY and so on also exist... As do androgen insensitivity and fetally androgenized females, as the term used to be (I hope). Also the phrase "the opposite sex" needs to be retired. There are more than 2 and they aren't opposite. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM "Trans women in bathrooms doesn't bother me. If it did, I'd figure it was me who had the problem" Amen to that - I got over my problem after my 'Isle of Dogs' traumatic experience (described above) Mixed gender public conveniences are now fairly commomplace in Ireland (never thought I'd see the day!) It used to amuse me when they first came out when you'd see a queue of women outside the 'Ladies' (women's toilets seem to be designed to generate queues) and a mixed sex one next door with empty cubicles I lost count of the times I've been given a look of horror when I suggested that the queuers might try next door Doesn't happen nowadays Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mo the caller Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:47 AM I wonder if the problem would cease to exist for some of those who wish to change if society treated people as PEOPLE not M & F in areas where gender is irrelevant. It always seemed ridiculous to me that before you can chat to a new mother about her baby you need to know whether to say 'he' or 'she'. I suppose I might get used to 'they' in the singular, 'Ms' doesn't sound as clumsy now as it did 50 years ago. Society changes slowly. Luckily I was always treated as an individual. Mo short for M...? (my internet net was unintentionally genderfree but I'm glad it is) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mr Red Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:56 AM Martina Navratilova created a storm when she opined on transgender tennis players. Her reasoning was that a man could change gender, play in womens' tennis and on retirement change back. Now the mechanics of that concept is, admittedly, oversimplified but there is a worrying truth in there. And if athletes are prepared to use drugs to compete at the highest levels regardless of the long-term consequences why not surgery? Such surgical debate is rife in the arena of paralympics. Money talks. And pays scant regard to fairness. And hormones are drugs, particularly when they are administered. What is argued as fair for one is not necessarily fair for all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Feb 19 - 06:16 AM "who wish to change if society treated people as PEOPLE not M & F in areas where gender is irrelevant" I suggest that it is the left who have embraced feminism far more readily than have those happy with the status quo Mo Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jos Date: 26 Feb 19 - 07:21 AM Regarding Ms, perhaps the female of Mister should be Mistress - meaning an independent woman making her own way in the world, whether or not she has a man or anyone else in tow. Any suggestions for an equivalent that doesn't reveal the sex or the gender of the person using the title? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 26 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM The female of mister IS mistress. The gender-neutral address is Mx (equivalent to Mr/Ms). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jos Date: 26 Feb 19 - 08:10 AM Thank you Mrrzy, I shall use Mx in future. But where did the unnecessary 'Mrs' or 'Missis' come from? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 26 Feb 19 - 12:46 PM It *was* necessary [quotes] when women were either Miss (I still belong to my father) or Mrs (I now belong to this other guy). Ms was invented later... And Mx even later. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 26 Feb 19 - 01:27 PM How do we pronounce Mx? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:56 PM Mix with more of a schwa |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:12 PM 🤙 🤙 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM "They" as a gender-neutral singular has been in use for at least five hundred years. I think it's perfectly good and is much better than clumsy constructions such as "he/she," "he or she" or the laughable "s/he." Quite often I have to reply to a letter in which the writer hasn't given away their gender, usually some official or other. I hate writing "Dear Sir/Madam" or similar horrors, so I occasionally resort to things like "Dear Customer Services Manager" (if in doubt, always promote them). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mr Red Date: 27 Feb 19 - 02:42 AM I have used (s)he and herm just to make a point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mo the caller Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:35 AM I wouldn't be sure what 'point' you are making though. A quick scroll up suggests anti. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Bonzo3legs Date: 27 Feb 19 - 06:36 AM masculine/feminine/boy/girl...................end of!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:39 AM Not I, said the little fat pig. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: ChanteyLass Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:54 PM Someone in my family who was raised as a boy is having a Coming Out party at her workplace on March 8, and I'm invited. I'm planning to attend but anxious about transportation. It's in a big city which I stopped driving to several years ago, so I'll have to take a commuter train and subway. And of course I'll have to drive to the train station about 20 minutes from home. (To a Rhode Islander, that's far!) I'm hoping for good weather and safe driving conditions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:02 PM I wish you good fortune and I hope it's the best party ever! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: ChanteyLass Date: 01 Mar 19 - 09:59 PM Thank you, Steve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Donuel Date: 04 Mar 19 - 08:30 PM https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex. ... In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop. https://www2.palomar.edu/anthro/abnormal/abnormal_5.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:28 PM Someone sent me a note, disappointed that Senoufou was leaving the BS forum because she was trounced by another member. So I read most of this thread, and I have to say in this instance that "antediluvian" is not meant unkindly and it does seem rather accurate. Perhaps in the time away from the BS section she will consider that there is a reason people object to the statement that "One is born with either XX or XY chromosomes, and nothing can alter that. One can dress as one wishes, adopt the appearance of either sex and have whatever sexuality one prefers. But even a 'sex-change operation' can't alter one's sex." I've looked for, but can't find (so far) a link to a radio science discussion I heard recently about research that indicates that human gender has the potential to be much more fluid than we understand right now. That the gene fragment that allows fish and frogs to change from female to male, if a population suddenly finds itself without a male, it's in humans also. And it's beginning to look like the "gender" process is far more biologically complicated than 'you're just one thing or another. Period.' Jeri said Someone who appears to be a woman going into a men's bathroom is (IMO) going to freak more people out than if she went into a women's bathroom, entered a stall and closed the door. A transgender woman being forced to go into the mens room because she was born with a penis is far more frightening (for that individual), in my opinion, than that transgender woman using the women's room would be to other women in the room. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: mg Date: 05 Mar 19 - 11:46 PM what scares people, including me, about the bathroom situation is people..namely pervert men no where on the gender continuum except on the very very male side, will use the law to linger in women's bathrooms. Has nothing to do with transgender people but non-transgender people. Male creeps in a women's bathroom could assault women or particularly girls. Not everyone who is afraid of this is wanting to deny transgender women a bathroom but I would hope everyone would realize this is a very real possibility. I am worried when creepy creeps even get to share sequentially mixed gender bathrooms..a young girl shouldn't have to be even in a line with a creepy creep. Oh but it would never happen. It has happened at least twice to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: The Sandman Date: 06 Mar 19 - 02:47 AM I was taught at school exactly what Senoufou said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: The Sandman Date: 06 Mar 19 - 02:51 AM However I believe that people regardless of sexual identity should be treated with kindness and love and should be judged on their actions as people rather than their sexual identity |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:11 AM Well I suppose I was that member who trounced Senoufou. Well I didn't set out to trounce anyone, but the thing is that we as society can tussle with, and resolve, the issue of public bathrooms/toilets, obviously not without some difficulty, but where there's a will... On the other hand, those people who find themselves in difficulty with our erstwhile strict (and false) two-gender world have a major issue, not at all of their own making, for life, and deserve a bit more sympathy/empathy than they get from the toilet-worriers, who seem to me to have their priorities arse about face. The sideways glances, nasty little behind-the-hand remarks and smirking they already have to deal with are bad enough, and then when they get caught short... I had an uncle who asserted that homosexual people were just "dirty buggers" who were out for kicks (he'd also lived in Rhodesia for a while and had kept a black "houseboy" and his family in a shack at the bottom of his garden). We've come a lot further in dealing with those horrid attitudes than we have with transgender issues, and we'll get there, but we won't unless we firmly confront them. No indulgences. I suppose we could try to be nice about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Donuel Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:43 AM Steve all of your posts trouncing me have been removed. When you don't think of consequences you trounce. It may be an ego thing which you do not accept, it may be a cultural dignity thing, it may be a an enlightenment thing that is not as enlightened as you think. You have plenty of practice pigeon holing people. Really I don't mind your tirades but belittling a kind and funny old lady on a park bench? Please think twice before you write. These are not the flame days of the past. This is a joke site with new ideas and history to ponder and pass the time, not a battlefield full of snipers. If only all of big time social media followed our lead. I don't know anyone here from Adam but I do try to have a mental construct of anyone I encounter here and helpful or not I picture them as a friendly ol coot who wnats to talk. Try it. You are not an evil guy, just impulsive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:43 AM Hey, we had a houseboy, no quotes. Do you mean your uncle was buggering the poor man? Did he "keep them" (against their wills) or was the shack just where they lived, as a perk of employment? Our houseboy was overpaid by local standards, but did not live in. The boyerie was instead occupied by the night watchman during the day. Rhodesia wasn't Cote d'Ivoire, but your phrasing sounded rather offhandedly colonial to me. Like the houseboy was property. Was he? And since male pervs targeting girls in bathrooms is not a trans issue, why is it still being brought up in the context of trans issues? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jos Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:49 AM There are a number of things I was told at school that have turned out not to be true. It can be a bit embarrassing to discover that something you have said (and that you have believed absolutely since childhood) is, in fact, wrong. But it is rewarding to swallow your pride and investigate further, thus finding out new things. (I remember my grandmother assuring me that the smallest thing on Earth was the atom, and that it was impossible to divide it. This must have been in the 1950s but she still believed it because it was something she had been taught as a child, even though by then she must also have known about atom bombs - a bit like the Red Queen, who liked to believe five impossible things before breakfast.) Come back, Eliza. Mudcat isn't the same without you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Ebbie Date: 06 Mar 19 - 02:20 PM I am in my 80s and I too was brought up to denigrate any woman who appeared 'mannish' (my mother's word). I doubt that Mom ever examined her own views, but I am here to tell you that one's views can be changed 180. As for sharing public restrooms with transgender folks, how would I even know? Women's restrooms typically have closed cubicles; as for the 'lobby' areas of restrooms I personally have never seen anyone change clothes or insert tampons or anything of the sort there. I would be offended if a woman did either of those things because I would consider it inappropriate. When it comes down to it, I'd say that this is not an earth-shattering issue. We are all human beings. We are all in this together. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:16 PM Couldn't agree more, Ebbie. Far too many people minding other people's business. Live and let live. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:06 PM I second that, Ebbie. And John. Donuel, I don't like you. I want you to ignore my posts. I want you to stop passing comment. If I ever met you I wouldn't buy you a drink, despite the fact that I'm unfailingly generous, because I wouldn't want to talk to you, not for one second. As far as I'm concerned you never contribute to debates here and you post whimsical, deliberately obscurantist rubbish. You think that posting incomprehensible tripe is clever. Well not for me it isn't. Find another hobby, please, and sort yourself out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Iains Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:32 PM I see the problem as being the expectations of society racing ahead of the mores of society. The envelope is being pushed to the extent of making some people uncomfortable. Transgender or gender fluid presents a particular problem for me. It seems most people are happier with male female toilets. If dressed as a male you use a male toilet. If dressed as a woman use a female toilet. I have a particular problem with unisex bathrooms/toilets in schools, Adolescents often have problems with self esteem, at least some part of the time, as they mature. I think respecting their need for privacy at that time of their lives is the least we can do to aid their journey.Unisex toilets in schools would appear to give far too much scope for potential bullying and embarrassment. I strongly feel the needs of the children should outweigh any drive for political correctness.50 years ago the idea of unisex toilets would probably have labelled the advocates as perverts. There is nothing wrong with the march of progress providing the steps taken are proven to be positive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Donuel Date: 06 Mar 19 - 09:10 PM The spectrum of sexuality is a non issue for me. It is what it is and I deal with it like the weather. I know I do not get half of the UK references or cultural attitudes. It is likely to be the same for American references confusing others. I just find the divide interesting. Many of the old attitudes of the UK are the current views in the bigoted South. I say lets celebrate the new attitudes about diversity. ps Steve I don't drink. no taunt intended. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Mar 19 - 09:31 PM Male creeps in a women's bathroom could assault women or particularly girls. This is a boogeyman, Mary. And if you approach a women's restroom and upon entering, find a man in there, do you stay? Typically, men who clean restrooms must close the women's room and no one else is in there while he cleans. Same with women cleaning men's restrooms. I have chased a couple of men out of women's university restrooms when they were up to no good (usually had accompanied a young woman to the stall hoping for a quickie before they were caught). Men, dressed as men, wouldn't lurk in women's restrooms without exciting a lot of attention and getting their asses kicked out, or else women don't go in. Men dressed as women using restrooms (I'm sure I've shared the women's room with trans women) act like anyone else in the restroom - they step into the stall and take care of their business. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: mg Date: 07 Mar 19 - 12:41 AM the word is boogeyperson. People will be afraid of chasing men out of bathrooms because they can use the trans issue as a reason for them being there. This has nothing to do with transgender people. It has to do with creepy non-trans men who will find ways to use new laws to their benefit. I am nlot against laws and I want everyone to have a bathroom they feel safe and comfortable in. In most cases, we can just wait if we are shopping etc. At what point to you raise a ruckus and what will be the result to you? They will test it..some out of stupid teenage behavior..let's startle some girls..and some in more serious ways. There have to be safeguards in both men and wome's bathrooms and again, not against trans people but just general pervert behavior. It does happen. It has happened to me, not in a trans situation, just normal perverts. They are out there. We have young children to protect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:44 AM Wow. A thread about the serious topic of how we should be making progress in our attitudes towards people who, through no fault of their own, endure a lifelong struggle to find a safe place for themselves in this world of ours is still mired in angst from self-styled "normal" people about public toilets. Ye gods. Yes there are true nutters who want to cash in on the blurry lines in order to feed their pervy predilections, but the planet is hardly swarming with them, is it? If you're that worried, take a really good pee and poo before you leave the house and don't drink too much tea or coffee before you go. If you still get caught short or need to attend to other personal matters, go into public bogs that are quite busy. There's safety in numbers, you'll feel, even if the danger of a quieter place is normally illusory. And you can always do your facial tuttie-uppie using the little mirror behind the sun visor in your car. Mine even has a little light I can switch on and it's only an ancient Ford Focus. Mind you, I gave up looking at my face in mirrors years ago as I wish to remain cheerful. It's a choice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:47 AM And, I must say, perhaps we should be more worried about the people who come out of the cubicles post-poo who don't wash their hands. The planet IS swarming with them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:46 AM The problem seems to be people who conflate 'Trans' and 'Pervert'. My wife's parents hold the view that Trans women, because of their male birth-gender, are likely to sexually harass young girls in public toilets, and they cannot be persuaded otherwise. Creepy men will be creepy men, irrespective of which toilet they go into - I've met a number of creepy men, been propositioned (and, on one occasion when I was mid-teens, sexually assaulted) by creepy men in male toilets. Steve is on the button regarding the use of public toilets - wherever possible, take steps at home to avoid needing to use them, but if use of a public loo becomes necessary, try to use a busy one. Every time I've had a problem with creepy men in a public loo, it was in one in which we were the only two using the facility. I would be far more concerned for a trans woman who was obliged to use a male toilet than I would be for other women and girls with a trans gender woman using a women's toilet. Trans people are not perverts. They are people living in a personal hell, who have taken an immensely brave decision to make a huge change to their own lives which many self-styled 'normal' people cannot begin to conceive of. And Steve's absolutely right about dirty buggers who take a leak or a crap and don't wash their hands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Mar 19 - 07:41 AM I've become quasi-philosophical about the matter of hand-washing for men after a wee. I mean, as long as you started the day showered and with clean undies (undies worn twaice are not quaite naice...), your "little chappie" is likely to be a damn sight more germ-free than your hands. Therefore, I'm minded to wash my hands FIRST. Of course, the poo is a different matter. Mind you, I do have to wonder if people who go out for the day and need a poo in a public bog are managing their lives properly (medical conditions apropos excluded, of course)... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:00 AM Well, we're in danger of wandering off-piste here (see what I did there?), but I agree - I've trained my body-clock to deal with my personal needs , very much in the main, in the comfort and privacy of my own home but, on the rare occasion I do need to use public facilities, there always seems to be someone taking a very noisy, smelly dump in one of the traps, and perhaps several of my predecessors who are incapable of pissing in the urinal judging by the pools on the floor. Humans really can be disgusting creatures. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:15 AM I know. You have to walk at least two hundred yards on dry ground or a hundred yards through puddles before daring to get back in your car with contaminated shoes. Tsk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:59 AM I know what a urinal is, but what in the world are male and female toilets? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:50 PM I'm sure you can work it out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:52 PM It's a serious topic and we really shouldn't be going off on this tangent, but I can't resist telling you about the horror of my experience this afternoon. 'Twas in Bodmin Asda gents. There are just two urinals in there. I was busting. The place was busy. I had to wait. Eventually I got to the right-hand one. It was clearly not draining very well, the last occupant's production only reluctantly ebbing away. But I adjudged that the bowl had sufficient capacity to contain my efforts. But I had reckoned without the auto-flush. The combination of the flush, my flux and the remnants of the previous chap's volume conspired to make the bowl get ever, ever, ever closer to overflowing. Overflowing splashily on to my besandalled and temporarily immobilised feet. Horrified at the prospect, I did a mid-flow manoeuvre seldom attempted in the history of male urination: in front of several gobsmacked chaps washing their hands and using the blowers, I switched rapidly and seamlessly, in spectacular manner, to the left-hand urinal. It was my good luck that the expected overflow of the adjacent stall happened in dramatic and noisy fashion, eliciting amused sympathy from the gathering. We chaps in such circumstances don't take long to interpret situations. I should think that at least six blokes are tastelessly dining out on this yarn this very Saturday evening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 09 Mar 19 - 10:54 PM Now a woman would have trouble swirching stalls midstream... Even in a skirt! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Bonzo3legs Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:58 AM "besandalled" - I couldn't possibly comment! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 10 Mar 19 - 10:54 AM This thread had taken the trajectory of the debate that many laws intending to benefit trans people run into. Fear of strangers in the bathroom has nothing to do with letting trans people use the bathroom that fits their needs and comfort. The same way the old arguments used to be about gay men and the fear that they were more likely to be pedophiles (nope), the same is the case with trans people. If you're afraid of creepy men in the bathroom, sobeit. But they have nothing to do with trans women using the bathroom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: keberoxu Date: 10 Mar 19 - 11:58 AM This is just to say that I feel very sad about "the kind and funny old lady on the park bench." I quite understand that a full-on discussion of ideas is going to result in some categorical statements about whether or not a point of view is valid. Would any of us, however, if the park-bench lady (you know who I mean -- and she could stand for many other middle-age-or-older people) were here in person, would we fail to be gracious in manner to the person, however much we disagree with her opinion? That's all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Mar 19 - 10:25 AM Backwoodsman, no, I can't. Pooping takes the same equipment. That is why I asked. A urinal is a urinal, not a male toilet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:24 AM SRS - "If you're afraid of creepy men in the bathroom, sobeit. But they have nothing to do with trans women using the bathroom." Absolutely agree. Mrrzy - "Backwoodsman, no I can't. Pooping takes the same equipment. That is why I asked. A urinal is a urinal, not a male toilet" OK, replace the word 'toilet' in my original post with 'bathroom' - therefore a male toilet is the men's 'bathroom', and a female toilet is the women's 'bathroom'. Whilst women's toilets contain only enclosed, seated WCs, men's toilets have open, standing urinals and enclosed, seated WCs. Here in the UK, a bathroom is where you go to take a bath. Nobody would use the term 'bathroom' (or even 'rest-room') to refer to a facility specifically for the purpose of urination and defecation. If there's no bath, it's not a bathroom! Hope that clarifies? I can draw pictures if necessary! ;-) :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:35 AM Not of yourself demonstrating uses of, one hopes... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Mar 19 - 12:29 PM "Nothing to see here, move along please..."!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Mar 19 - 12:40 PM Oh, backwoodsman, sorry! Separated by a common language again! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Mar 19 - 01:02 PM Ha-ha! I knew that, Mrrzy! It's quite difficult though, trying to explain without getting into...errrrmmm...'toilet humour'! :-) :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Mar 19 - 01:06 PM We spell that Humor over here... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Mar 19 - 01:17 PM Behave!! :-) :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Mar 19 - 01:43 PM Ok, I be good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: CupOfTea Date: 15 Mar 19 - 02:11 PM The orignal issue - sex change before adulthood - with greater awareness that emotional gender identification is sometimes at odds with physical presentation means this disparity can be acknowledged by parents and doctors earlier in life. It becomes more difficult to dismiss the girlchild who believes they ought to be male as "just a tomboy" & a stage to be outgrown. Puberty hits earlier in each generation & making the physical (surgical, hormonal) transition early is better for the trans person in the long run. The physical presentation then more is likely to be "passing" as cisgender, and unlikely to upset people who are examining the features of others sharing the same public facilities. Being trans isnt a choice, but what to do about it, is. The wish that comes up again and again is to be just another person, "as I am" A lovely wee girl I enjoyed watching grow up has become an interesting college guy, and the pleasure I take in their company, or the things we talk about have not changed - same person. What HAS changed is that they are happier, more self confident, more open to parents, less unsettled, less shamed. I'm all for not sharing a public lav with "creepy creeps" but I have yet to meet a transexual who fits that. Joanne in Cleveland |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 15 Mar 19 - 02:30 PM "I'm all for not sharing a public lav with "creepy creeps" but I have yet to meet a transexual who fits that." Amen to that, Joanne. Absolutely right on the nail. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: The Sandman Date: 15 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM the argument aginst people having transgender change treatment before 18, is that it is difficult to reverse. it seems to me illogical that people are not allowed to vote but can have treatment before they are 18. please do not misunderstand me ,i am not in any way against transgender people or anybody making that decision to have medical treatment once they are 18,but is it not a more important decision than being allowed to vote canot anybody see the complete illogicality of not being allowed to vote until you are 18 , yet children can have treatment for a sex change. i am not an expert on this subject and if i have my facts wrong then i do not mind being corrected. I do also understand tthat parents who love their children and are concerned for them allow this to happen, and i am not intending to criticse anybody, i do not know how i would deal with the situation if i was in that position as a parent, because any parent wants tthe best for their children. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: ranger1 Date: 15 Mar 19 - 10:41 PM Being trans myself, and only recently having come out about it publicly at the age of 48, I can tell you that we know what we are well before the age of 18. Your brain tells you one thing, your body presents as something different. Think of it as your brain and your body are cross-wired, if you will. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: The Sandman Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:55 AM RANGER1,I ask these questions to learn more they are personal and i understand if you do not want to answer at what age did you realise? do you defintely know that every transgender person always knows before they are 18. do you not think it illogical that you cannot vote in an election until you are 18? but you can make life changing decisions which are irreversible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 16 Mar 19 - 10:38 AM Babies born with ambiguous genitals are usually assigned to female at birth, surgery being deemed cosmetic. For half of these babies that is an incorrect choice. Has that stopped? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: ranger1 Date: 17 Mar 19 - 01:27 PM The Sandman - I knew I was different before I hit preschool. My mother recognized it when I was a toddler. As for physically transitioning, I firmly believe that everyone has the right to do it before 18, but not without counseling, both for child and guardians. You don't just hand someone the keys to a car without teaching them how to drive at 16. It's kind of the same idea. I would have loved to have been able to talk to a counselor about issues as a teen, but unfortunately, much less was known about gender identity when I was a teen, and I grew up in a small, rural town that wasn't exactly open and welcoming to people who were different. Some trans people are comfortable without ever having any physical alterations done. Some of us are not. it helps if you think of gender as a spectrum, rather than an either/or thing. And yes, I'm pretty certain that every trans person knows that they're trans before they hit the age of 18. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Mar 19 - 06:36 PM Almost every. I was well into my 50s before figuring out what I wasn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jeri Date: 17 Mar 19 - 07:37 PM Technicalities: I've watched "I Am Jazz" and it seems one has to have grown an adult penis to have a successful vagina, if one has bottom surgery. That requires going through puberty, which means secondary sex characteristics like an Adam's apple and voice changes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Mar 19 - 08:25 AM Um, define successful there. The turning of ambiguous babies into functional girls would belie that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jeri Date: 18 Mar 19 - 09:12 AM Successful = working. If you were talking to me, Mrrzy, I was NOT talking about "ambiguous babies". I was talking about m to f bottom surgery. The babies, I think, should be allowed to grow up a bit and figure out who they are first. The reason we force them into either/or is because WE feel uncomfortable with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Mar 19 - 09:41 AM Right... But they have functional vaginas not made out of adult penises is all I was saying. Now to make a functioning penis is a whole [get it?] nother problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: BobL Date: 19 Mar 19 - 03:05 AM I was reading the other day (in a respectable daily, don't know if it's true) of a trans male who, presumably not having undergone surgery, conceived and gave birth. However, self-identifying as a man, he objected to being described on legal documents as the child's "mother". Pure Gilbertianism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Mar 19 - 09:21 PM A music related issue. Can we expect to see F to M transgender opera singers reviving the lost category of Castrati? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Mar 19 - 09:41 PM Are you talking bollocks here, Kevin? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: robomatic Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:27 AM There's a great scifi story from the 50s by Robert Heinlein where a girl grows up, joins the service, is seduced and impregnated, has a baby, and is told in the recovery ward that she was born a hermaphrodite, and after the pregnancy her female set of organs are useless, so the surgeons have taken the male organs and set them up to see if they will develop, which they do. The newly male narrator now joins the time service, and in the course of his adventures goes back in time and seduces him/herself. At the end of the story he addresses the world: "I know who I am, but who are all you zombies?" The story is worth reading because it also contains the BYLAWS OF TIME. Which brings me to my question: Say you have gender dysphoria. Rather then go through a lot of major plumbing changes, what if there was a pill that could change your mind? Wouldn't that be as acceptable a solution? Mind you, I'm not saying such a pill exists, or even is possible. But wouldn't it be worth it to find out? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:53 AM A solution for whom? Society which doesn't want to deal with us? Doesn't feel like a solution to me. My lithium is not a solution to my bipolar disease. Not needing lithium any more would be a solution. Sure, I stay out of hospitals, but my issue is not solved, I just have a bandaid. Imo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: robomatic Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:15 PM Okay, let me restate it somewhat, since I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm trying to understand. Given that someone has gender dysphoria. The existing 'treatment' (NOT solution) is extensive surgery. I'm asking (not suggesting) that if there was a treatment that simply put the brain into consonance with its existing somatic layout, would that not be as acceptable a 'treatment', if not more so? I appreciate your take, and I apologize if I come off sounding condescending. I do that without meaning to and I know from experiencing it myself that it is irritating. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jeri Date: 20 Mar 19 - 01:26 PM First, figure out if the "gender dysphoria"* is a problem for the individual it would apply to, or other people. "Fixing" something that isn't broken, except in the eyes of busybodies is stupid and obnoxious. If there were a pill, I think people could be offered it, but forcing people to take it is "conversion therapy" through drugs. Bad idea. *I'm unsure this is a reasonable term for being in the wrong gender body. It implies confusion. The folks I've known who felt they should have had different plumbing weren't confused. I supposed some people could be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: robomatic Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:53 PM Jeri: I did not understand your comment. And I feel you did not understand mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:18 PM I don't care for the term at all. The problem in large part lies in the fact that if you have a dick at birth you'll be railroaded relentlessly into boyhood, and if you have a vulva you'll be railroaded relentlessly into girlhood. Whatever the unhappiness experienced by children who feel that their feelings and desires are at odds with their genitals is magnified multiple times by society's rigid and unforgiving forcing. We have a long way to go with this and it sometimes feels that this particular journey has hardly started. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 24 Mar 19 - 10:49 AM Robomatic, none taken. Yes, the magic pill would solve the mismatch between body and mind, but that mismatch may not be the perceived problem. Railroading is a good term, Steve Shaw, and thank you for using the word vulva. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: The Sandman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:09 PM perhaps of interest,change of sex for fish Observer Water £30bn bill to purify water system after toxic impact of contraceptive pill Drug firms oppose an EU call for controls on potent chemicals that have been blamed for the gender mutation of freshwater fish Robin McKie, science editor Sat 2 Jun 2012 22.35 BST First published on Sat 2 Jun 2012 22.35 BST This article is over 6 years old Shares 702 Comments 169 Men fly fishing at Trimpley Reservoir near Arley Worcestershire England Uk Falls in the fish population have been linked to the main ingredient in contraceptive pills. Photograph: David Bagnall/Alamy Britain faces a £30bn bill to clean up rivers, streams and drinking water supplies contaminated by synthetic hormones from contraceptive pills. Drastic reductions in these chemicals, which have been linked to collapses in fish populations, are proposed in the latest European Union water framework directive. But the plan, which would involve upgrading the sewage network and significantly increasing household water bills, is controversial. Water and pharmaceutical companies dispute the science involved and argue the costs are prohibitive. By contrast, many environmental researchers say the proposal is sound. Ethinyl estradiol (EE2), the main active ingredient of contraceptive pills, can trigger a condition known as intersex in freshwater fish, which has caused significant drops in populations in many species – although no links have yet been made with human health. "That does not mean we will not find impacts in future," said toxicologist Professor Richard Owen of Exeter University. "But do we want to wait until we see effects in humans, as we did with thalidomide and BSE, or do we act before harm is done?" Get Society Weekly: our newsletter for public service professionals Read more Preventing EE2 from having environmental or health effects is difficult, however. "Ethinyl estradiol is a very potent chemical," said Professor Susan Jobling of Brunel University. "It is designed to have effects in the human body at very low levels. That means it will also have a significant impact in the environment." More than 2.5 million women take birth control pills in the UK. Their EE2 content is excreted and washed into sewage systems and rivers. Even at very low concentrations, this chemical has harmful effects on fish. Males suffer reduced sperm production, with severe effects on populations. In one recent trial, in a Canadian lake, researchers added EE2 until levels in the water reached five parts per trillion (ppt), a minute concentration. Yet fish populations suffered severe problems with one species, the fathead minnow, collapsing completely. In Britain, research by Jobling found that at 50 sites 80% had noticeable levels of EE2 in their water. The closer a downstream sampling point was to a sewage works, the higher the level of EE2 tended to be. Similar levels are found elsewhere in Europe. To reduce dangers posed by these concentrations, the EU proposed in January that it would set a level of 0.035ppt for ethinyl estradiol in water in Europe. Achieving that target will not be easy, as Owen and Jobling point out in a recent issue of Nature. They calculate that, for a town of about 250,000 people, it would cost about £6m to install a system that uses granular activated carbon to cut EE2 levels, with a further £600,000 being needed to operate the system each year. To upgrade the 1,400 sewage waterworks in England and Wales would cost a total of more than £30bn, they add. "The question we have to ask ourselves is straightforward," said Owen, a former head of environment and health at the UK Environment Agency. "Are we willing to pay up or would we rather settle for environmental damage associated with flexible fertility?" A final decision on introducing the EU's plans to cut EE2 levels will be taken in November by the European parliament. Water and pharmaceutical companies have already begun to lobby to block the plan and it is expected other parties will become involved. "There is a danger that the battle will take place behind closed doors," said Jobling. "The public need to be told what the issues are and make its voice heard. It may be happy to pay the extra cost and so avoid the risk of ill-health in the future." Nor is it necessary that the public should pick up the tab, added Owen. "The pharmaceutical industry makes billions out of the drugs and treatments it sells. If these pollute the environment, what is wrong with making them pay to have it cleaned up?" However, the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry rejected the idea and disputed the scientific basis of the EU plans. "Feminisation in fish populations has been observed in a number of field surveys, but a detrimental impact on the level of those populations has not been established," said a spokesman. "It would be premature to require such intensive upgrading of waste water treatment." An official at Water UK, the trade body for the water industry, also attacked the plan and criticised the European commission for focusing on "end of pipe treatments" rather than tackling the issue of what enters the waste water stream. |
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Subject: RE: BS Change of sex prior to 18 From: robomatic Date: 27 Mar 19 - 11:59 AM Thanks Mrrzy this thread cleared at least one thing up for me, along with some conversation with friends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spring is here From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 19 - 07:36 AM I was sorry to lean that Senofou had left, even though she and I had had numerous head-to-heads - I'll miss her gentle touch In fairness, a Mod made it clear about here leaving and her attitude towards the 'mean boy' referred to There are few 'mean boys' on this forum and those there are are far worse and more easily spottable than what was said here Just wanted to put the record straight - Jim Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Stilly River Sage - PM Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:28 PM Someone sent me a note, disappointed that Senoufou was leaving the BS forum because she was trounced by another member. So I read most of this thread, and I have to say in this instance that "antediluvian" is not meant unkindly and it does seem rather accurate. Perhaps in the time away from the BS section she will consider that there is a reason people object to the statement that "One is born with either XX or XY chromosomes, and nothing can alter that. One can dress as one wishes, adopt the appearance of either sex and have whatever sexuality one prefers. But even a 'sex-change operation' can't alter one's sex." I've looked for, but can't find (so far) a link to a radio science discussion I heard recently about research that indicates that human gender has the potential to be much more fluid than we understand right now. That the gene fragment that allows fish and frogs to change from female to male, if a population suddenly finds itself without a male, it's in humans also. And it's beginning to look like the "gender" process is far more biologically complicated than 'you're just one thing or another. Period.' I had deleted this from the thread you posted it in. Mudcat's been wonky, so it didn't get moved until just now (12:44 Mudcat time) --Mod |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jeri Date: 31 Mar 19 - 09:51 AM People's opinions change. Stubbornness and the internet phenomenon of "but in 1992, you said blahblahblah" try to prevent change. Most folks learn new things and adapt their opinions. When I first went into the military, there were lots of "n***er" jokes. They ALWAYS made me very uncomfortable, but I was white (still am), so I guess they figured I was "in the club". I first ignored them, then I got to the point where I gave them a piece of my mind. It eventually stopped (at least around me), but I think the main reason was the culture changed. Regular folks started sharing a piece of their minds. Including regular folks who were "in the club". Society itself resists change. It did with race issues, and it does with gender issues. It will take "regular folks" who are smart and considerate thinking about the issue and adapting their thinking to change society. The thing with Senoufou started with someone saying she was part of the problem. Well, she is. She is smart, and she's nice, but she's looking at things the way "they've always been". No adapting, no change. No consideration of anything except chromosomes. And while I see disagreement, I see no insult. I see no reason for her to have slammed the door on the way out. The door's not locked, and we're still here, as opinionated as ever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jos Date: 31 Mar 19 - 02:28 PM I really don't think she slammed the door - she just closed it quietly, and considerately. I expect she still looks in now and then - so in case she does, 'I hope you are well, Eliza, and your lovely husband too. Just keep on eating the crumpets and sitting on the bench in the sun.' [I left for several years at one time (someone had called me a twat), but I didn't mention it to anyone so probably nobody noticed.] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: The Sandman Date: 31 Mar 19 - 03:23 PM The thing with Senoufou started with someone saying she was part of the problem. Well, she is." I do not agree she is not part of the problem,[ anymorethan you are part of a problem] what problem exactly are you referring to ? please be more specific, before you say something like this , how is she part of what problem. the original post is change of sex prior to 18 please explain how her remark about chromasones is a problem in relation to the point of the thread [change of sex prior to 18] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jeri Date: 31 Mar 19 - 04:07 PM Dick, I suppose my whole statement about "regular" people changing their attitudes just went straight over your head? I've been corrected before when equating sex with gender. Sex is, in my interpretation, about chromosomes and physical attributes, whereas gender takes how people see themselves into consideration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Mar 19 - 06:38 PM I did feel cross and just a bit dejected when I read the post I later reacted to. You and I frequently prowl around each other, Jeri (way too much, probably), so I appreciate your balanced and measured reaction to my posts on this topic. Maybe I was a bit too sharp in my response to Senoufou but I think I was being direct rather than insulting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jeri Date: 31 Mar 19 - 08:05 PM Steve, I think we're usually on the same side of issues, but our personalities get in the way. I appreciate directness - what some call "brutal honesty". I feel like I'm talking too much about the off-topic stuff that usually signals a thread's going down the tubes. I'll stop, and stick to the subject. In this case, to put it simply, we're in a state of flux. We're learning. Some people have figured things out before me, and some will after. I've always been gender-weird, but I'm cisgender, and I have much to learn. The point is, I care, I'm capable of adapting, and I'm listening. People create their own place in the world. They decide who they are. Everybody should have the freedom to do that, and those who want to force everybody else into some pre-designed mold because it's easier for them...well, let's hope the inability to do that can be only their problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Mar 19 - 08:11 PM Thanks for that. On this matter at least, we're in total agreement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: The Sandman Date: 01 Apr 19 - 05:57 PM jeri you are out of order you compare senofous comment to people using the word nigger ,that is far worse than anything steve said, cop on,you need to change that attitude |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Stanron Date: 01 Apr 19 - 07:08 PM The Sandman wrote: jeri you are out of order you compare senofous comment to people using the word nigger ,that is far worse than anything steve said, cop on,you need to change that attitudeI agree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Apr 19 - 07:19 PM Hone your post-reading skills, Dick. That is absolutely NOT what Jeri was doing. This thread has pitched us into delicate areas in more ways than one and it pays to read carefully what people have said and to choose your own words carefully. And, for the record, Senoufou and I have enjoyed many very cordial exchanges here. I thought that the opening post in this thread was seriously out of kilter with the beginnings of progress we've made in understanding what trans people go through both in their own minds and in the ways they are often treated badly in society, and turning the thing round into complaints about who goes into which toilets and changing rooms reeks of intolerance. We have a long way to go and I think it's fair to be direct with people who seem to have not even started the journey. It is a discussion forum after all, and there's no shortage of controversial issues here. The outcome is highly regrettable but I didn't hound her off the forum, and I hope she'll come back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Apr 19 - 07:22 PM Beg pardon, not the opening post but Senoufou's first response. I've had a long day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: The Sandman Date: 02 Apr 19 - 03:54 AM I hope you and Jeri have a nice day, Senoufou would not have left if you were able to discuss in a polite way, you will never change someones opinion by being aggressive |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:20 AM Tea just came down my nose... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:36 AM As ever, Dick, you just unthinkingly entrench your position, this time with a remarkably unintelligent post (and do note that I'm attacking the post, not the man). I've enjoyed many a pleasant banter with Senoufou, but on this occasion she posted with what looked to me like an unacceptable degree of intolerance, inflexibility and lack of understanding (certainly with a lack of empathy). I addressed that with a level of directness I thought was appropriate and I managed to do it without name-calling. I'm thick-skinned enough to take criticism of that on the chin (I've admitted more than once that I could perhaps have been a bit gentler) but I'm not about to change my mind. I regret her decision to leave and hope that she'll be back soon. Now that's enough of me defending myself. You carry on with the sniping if you like. I'm unimpressed, frankly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jeri Date: 02 Apr 19 - 08:31 AM Coffee is worse than tea, especially with cream and sugar. Howsabout we let Steve's be the last Miss Manners-related post and get back to the subject if we're still posting here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Apr 19 - 10:04 AM Agreed, Jeri. What else is there to say? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: keberoxu Date: 02 Apr 19 - 10:07 AM Maybe, since this thread topic got sidetracked so early, there ought to be two separate threads: one for segregated toilets (sorry Mrrzy, bathrooms) and one for gender/sex before the age of eighteen? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 02 Apr 19 - 10:18 AM Well I'm learning stuff here - for instance, that there's a word 'cisgender' which I'd never heard of - and other 'stuff'. Let's keep the thread going, and drop the accusatory stuff, eh? None of us can claim to be whiter than white, let he who is without sin, yadda yadda? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Donuel Date: 02 Apr 19 - 10:44 AM queer theory |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jeri Date: 02 Apr 19 - 01:00 PM The reason I've learned some things (such as words) is because I know some folks who are LGBTQ, and I try to learn things. I figure I could learn things even if I didn't know people. I also like it when people can be who they are, and do what they want, as long as it doesn't harm other people. Of course, then you have to define what "harm" means. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: The Sandman Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:41 PM I started this thread , the intention was to discuss amicably ,Senoufou has decided to leave,because of unnecessary rudeness, a comparison to someone using the word nigger was particularly out of place as she is married to an African. Jeri and Steve will you never leasrn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:53 PM No irony there then... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: John P Date: 02 Apr 19 - 06:25 PM Sandman, that would be a nice theory if it had ever happened. No one has compared anything to the N word. As has been said before. Why continue to push this false narrative? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jeri Date: 02 Apr 19 - 06:43 PM Nobody said that. It's not in the thread, and it hasn't been deleted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 02 Apr 19 - 08:55 PM Thanks for the translation! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Backwoodsman Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:57 AM ”The reason I've learned some things (such as words) is because I know some folks who are LGBTQ, and I try to learn things. I figure I could learn things even if I didn't know people. I also like it when people can be who they are, and do what they want, as long as it doesn't harm other people. Of course, then you have to define what "harm" means.” I completely agree Jeri. I know people (and have relatives who are) LGBTQ, including two trans- people, and their status never enters our conversations - they are just ‘people’ - so the word ‘cisgender’ has never cropped up in anything I’ve heard or read until this thread. I had to look it up, and I’m glad your post brought it to my attention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:09 AM I have to say that I'm staggered at the speed and willingness with which Ireland has embraced the changes on Same Sex marriage - the times certainly are a-changing here Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Stanron Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:06 AM John P wrote; "Sandman, that would be a nice theory if it had ever happened. No one has compared anything to the N word. As has been said before. Why continue to push this false narrative? " Jeri wrote: People's opinions change. Stubbornness and the internet phenomenon of "but in 1992, you said blahblahblah" try to prevent change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jeri Date: 03 Apr 19 - 12:40 PM I guess that's where Dick got it. I was talking about the jokes, and the mindset that allowed them, and the way people changed their opinions. I wrote it six days after Senoufou said she was leaving. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: The Sandman Date: 03 Apr 19 - 01:33 PM jeri as a mod you need to think before you write , the fact you wrote it six days after means senoufou is even more unlikely to come back try thinking ahead |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:03 PM A person we know as a pleasant and jovial poster makes a very wrong-headed contribution which is riddled with intolerance for and lack of understanding of a troubled minority who are badly treated by society and who have brought nothing on themselves. I'm really sorry, but in a discussion forum well known for its no-holds-barred approach to issues it would be dishonest to withhold one's firmly opposing opinion just because it's a loveable member we disagree with. There was no name-calling and no insults. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jeri Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:33 PM Yeah, and I'm not wasting time and further diverting the thread trying to explain what I plainly wrote to someone who isn't capable of understanding it. When it gets to this point, perhaps it's time to leave it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Stanron Date: 03 Apr 19 - 04:03 PM So let's get down to numbers. Are there any correct figures of people who have gender reassignment issues? Has anyone made an estimation of our population percentage with gender issues? If it were, say less than 0.1 % of the population, I wouldn't want to loose friends over it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Apr 19 - 04:39 PM No, let's not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mrrzy Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:39 AM Define "issues." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:44 AM Very good question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: BobL Date: 05 Apr 19 - 03:10 AM "if what you worry about is which toilets and changing rooms people use, then "antediluvian" is too kind a word for you." "There was no name-calling and no insults." Steve, I must respectfully disagree: your earlier comment was hardly polite, even if the word "antediluvian" could be literally true of attitudes as old as history. A lot of old attitudes are changing (nothing new there), and a good thing too, but your own position comes over as "this is how it's going to be, and anyone who disagrees had better get used to it." Gender issues are sensitive matters, and much tact will be needed in dealing with them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mr Red Date: 05 Apr 19 - 03:54 AM Not to labour the point overly but on a recent relevant BBC radio prog, a point was made about athletes who were fortunate to have characteristics that help them succeed. And we enjoy their success. Should we now have high jump events for different heights of people? Much like the Paralympics have numerous classes? And there is a fear that if the prize is big enough there are athletes who would opt for surgery to give them some advantage. If you poo-poo the idea think again - is doping any different? At what age did FloJo die, and why? Transgender in sport would come under this umbrella notion. I see no reason not to view it with that perspective. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Apr 19 - 04:51 AM Characterising someone as antediluvian (or Luddite, or troglodytical, or similar) is at the very mildest end of the lexicon of "insults" levelled on this forum, and, in my view, is far more eyeballingly critical than insulting. And my sentence, the one you quoted, starts with the conditional "if." As in, "if the cap fits..." The invitation there is to defend, modify or correct yourself. She chose instead to take umbrage. I suggest you reread the post that got my goat in the first place and judge again who was being the more insulting. Not as though it's a competition, mind. I'm perfectly happy to accept that Senoufou's persona here is fifty times more lovable than mine (I could try harder but will probably stay as I am), but be fair. Good post there, Mr Red. An argument I've often made myself. Sadly, though, my enthusiasm for athletics has melted away because the irrational part of me suspects that everyone involved is on drugs. Cycling, even more so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Apr 19 - 05:16 AM "Not to labour the point overly but on a recent relevant BBC radio prog, a point was made about athletes who were fortunate to have characteristics that help them succeed. " This was a regular criticism made against athletes from the Soviet Bloc Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18 From: Mossback Date: 09 Apr 19 - 09:58 AM And not a second too soon: Massachusetts Bans Controversial ‘Gay Conversion’ Therapy For Minors Therapists in Massachusetts can no longer practice so-called conversion therapy on minors, thanks to a new bill signed into law by the state’s Republican governor. Gov. Charlie Baker signed legislation on Monday that prohibits licensed health care professionals from providing conversion therapy to patients under 18. With the new law, Massachusetts joins 15 other states and Washington, D.C., in banning the dangerous and discredited practice that attempts to change a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/massachusetts-conversion-therapy-ban_n_5cabc835e4b02e7a705c3afa |
