BS: Change of sex prior to 18

Subject: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:35 AM

If young people are not allowed to vote until they are 18, should they be allowed to change sex before they are 18?, curious at to mudcat members views on this

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:50 AM

My view is that the entire process needs root and branch reform.
Undoudtedly some are born the "transgender" sex as some are born gay or lesbian. How frequently this happens I have no idea. I suspect the process, as it exists today, occurs far too rapidly, to too many children.
Just who are the "experts" that determine these outcomes and what are their qualifications. It is a profound decision for a child, especially when the required surgery is contemplated. I would like surgery postponed until much closer to adulthood(while recognising for some sooner may be better)
I am suspicious of who, if anyone, looks to the best interests of the child. I would like a system where a neutral observer questions each step of the way on behalf of the child.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:50 AM

Nobody can 'change sex'. One is born with either XX or XY chromosomes, and nothing can alter that.
One can dress as one wishes, adopt the appearance of either sex and have whatever sexuality one prefers.
But even a 'sex-change operation' can't alter one's sex.

If, for example, a person born with the male sex decides that he is actually female, that doesn't give him the right to enter private female spaces such as toilets or changing rooms. Or to be assigned to a female prison.
The same would apply of course to a person born female declaring they are a man and entering private male spaces.

I think 18 is quite early enough for a person to decide they wish to present themselves as the opposite sex. Young people are often 'in a state of flux'about their identity, and at the mercy of social media which promotes all sorts of fads and ideas.
If they are administered with hormones or even operated on, they may regret this later, having been rendered sterile for life.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:10 AM

I agree Senoufou.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:11 AM

Nobody can 'change sex'. One is born with either XX or XY chromosomes, and nothing can alter that

While that may be the scientific definition, I doubt if anyone posting here has decided on the sex of the majority of the people they meet based on a genetic analysis. So to me that doesn't really address the question. The social aspect is what is being considered here.

I have a close relative who is transgender. And she is far happier and more sociable than he ever was. Just about every one of my relatives who I have spoken to about it has been perfectly comfortable and only distressed at all my the main decades of misery he endured in fear we could not accept it.

As far as children are concerned, I would be extremely wary but not totally opposed. There are cases as well where the gender is physically indeterminate and some decision has to be made: in those cases at least it is sensible the child is involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:17 AM

Interesting and very moving film - 'Boy Erased' about a youth sent to be 'cured' of homosexuality

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:41 AM

That is most interesting DMcG. Do you mind my asking if your relative has had surgery/hormone treatment, or has just changed their appearance in various ways to present as a female? I'm glad she is happy now, and feels complete in herself.

I would not want anyone to be unhappy in themselves, and have no problem at all with how anybody wishes to be seen and known in society.
We often chat to a transgender person (man-to-woman) called Ariel, who serves at the checkout in a store we sometimes visit. She is very sweet, most polite and helpful but a bit shy.

I just have problems with, for example, sports contestants entering a competition as a woman, but with all the musculature and strength of a man. To me this isn't fair. The sexes have always entered sports events segregated by sex, because as is obvious, males are stronger.

I'm also very uncomfortable with men self-identifying as women and demanding admittance to changing rooms and toilets specifically designated for females. This is dangerous and is an invasion of female privacy and security.
I have no children, but I'd be very averse to my child desiring an operation or hormone treatment at a young age. I would have no worries though if he/she wished to cross-dress, present as the opposite sex etc.
Eighteen is soon enough to undergo such drastic and irreversible changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 08:54 AM

Changing gender is an extremely long and quite intrusive process in the UK. You need to spend several years "cross dressing" and have several psychiatric assessments before surgery can be approved, then more as you go through the whole medication and surgery. She had the final surgery a few years ago.

We do not live nearby, so we were not party to the process while it happened, and as I hinted he retreated from almost all social situations, so very few people knew anything until afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 09:47 AM

Transgender folks know from quite an early age that they are transgender. They KNOW.
Forcing someone born male to develop secondary sex characteristics, mainly the changed voice because YOU (the generic you) don't feel as comfortable with a girl being a girl as the kid does just makes life harder for her.
I don't know if it's as hard for trans boys and secondary female characteristics.

Fundamentally, I'm opposed to "other people" butting their noses into folks' personal decisions. Those who advocate an age limit want to force these kids to go through puberty as the "wrong" gender.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM

One does not "decide" to be transgender.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM

This is a very complex issue and one which humanity is still in the early stages of getting to grips with. Seeing the world as consisting of full males and full females only is as outmoded a view as trying to force left-handed kids to write right-handed. We've made progress in the last couple of decades but the understanding and empathy we need to achieve in order to behave humanely towards our fellow human beings is still a long way off. One thing's for sure: if what you worry about is which toilets and changing rooms people use, then "antediluvian" is too kind a word for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 11:58 AM

Interesting and very moving film - 'Boy Erased' about a youth sent to be 'cured' of homosexuality,
what relevance is this , this thread is not about homosexuality

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM

It's relevant because it's about a youth not being accepted for how they are or how they see themselves, and suffering accordingly. Similar to a transgender young person whose parents may not want to come to terms with their transgenderism.

Steve. you're a man and most likely have a different standpoint to that of women who feel that 'their' spaces should be respected. A Ladies' toilet is a sanctum, where women can see to their make-up, adjust their clothes, seek reassurance from their friends and so on.

I would definitely not want to be in a female toilet (not just the cubicle but the washbasin area and, if young, using the sanitary products dispenser etc) when a person who is physically a man (even though presenting as a woman) walks in and claims the space too. I would be ill-at-ease and a little afraid to be honest.

Of course, this problem is easily solved with individual toilets that are unisex, each with a washbasin etc, but that costs a lot more to provide.   

If 'antideluvian' is too kind a word for me Steve, I have every confidence in your ability to find a far more insulting epithet.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 12:37 PM

Attagirl Senoufou! or in this pc world should that be a high five. I appreciate exactly what you are saying and I agree. If society is going to change, the infrastructure needs to be on a par with the changes, or better still, ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: meself
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 12:58 PM

"One is born with either XX or XY chromosomes"

"sports contestants entering a competition as a woman, but with all the musculature and strength of a man"

Now, coincidentally, I was half-listening/half-sleeping to a radio show on just this subject the other night/morning, forcussing on several 'female' athletes who had had rather traumatic experiences in this regard, and about how the Olympics, in particular, has dealt with the issue over the decades. These were women who, they said, had never had reason to question their sex until they won a major race (they were all runners), and complaints were lodged. Then some eggheads were weighing in on the biology of it, and what I gathered was that, in females, the chromosomal situation is not always so black-and-white. And then I was back in the house I grew up in, and I was supposed to be running a marathon, but I couldn't find my running shoes, and I crawled into that little cubby-hole under the stairs ... and ... I don't remember after that ... but I woke up in a cold sweat ....

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:17 PM

"what relevance is this , this thread is not about homosexuality"
No it isn't Dick, but all these subject are linked by a largely religion driven belief that they are "unnatural" and therefore curable
It was a passing recommendation - no more

As far as Sen's comment is concerned, I tend to go along with Steve in that it is a complex subjects with a lot of preconceptions and prejudices to scramble over
I remember my own shock once while visiting a pub on The Isle of Dogs, I was 'making myself comfortable' in the jacks when a flamboyantly attired, very attractive young woman walked in, hoisted up her skirt and joined me at the next urinal
I had forgotten that there was a drag show going on in the back room
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:20 PM

By the way - discussions such as these would be so much pleasanter anf more productive if eejits didn't use terms like PC
The opposite is politically incorrect - I suppose some people can't help themselves being permanently in the wrong
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:25 PM

Ha! Thank you very much Bonzo and Iains! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:51 PM

I should of course have written 'antedeluvian' not 'antideluvian'.
I have nothing against floods.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:45 PM

By the way - discussions such as these would be so much pleasanter anf more productive if eejits didn't use terms like PC
The opposite is politically incorrect - I suppose some people can't help themselves being permanently in the wrong

Flaming or just skipped a therapy session?

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 03:06 PM

I very much think that one should figure out who has the problem, and allowing it to be theirs. Trans women in bathrooms doesn't bother me. If it did, I'd figure it was me who had the problem. People putting on makeup and chatting isn't really a gender-specific issue.

Someone who appears to be a woman going into a men's bathroom is (IMO) going to freak more people out than if she went into a women's bathroom, entered a stall and closed the door.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: John P
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 04:05 PM

Bad news for those who don't what transgender women in the womens' bathroom: they've been around and dressing as women for centuries, and have been using the bathroom the entire time. You just never noticed.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: John P
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:34 PM

Maybe we should try to get rid of "PC" and replace it with "SA", for socially acceptable. Most of the time, it seems like PC isn't really political correctness. It's just normal, everyday correctness.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 06:02 PM

The spelling is antediluvian.

It's good to see the likes of Jim, meself (not me, though I share his views, but the person of that soubriquet) John P, Jeri, Mrrzy and DMcG giving their sane, modern views about a topic that all too easily attracts the yah-boo-you're-just-being-PC knee jerk brigade. These people are increasingly being left behind on all sorts of things, homosexuality, gay marriage, race, HIV prejudice and the subjugation of women. Ignorant gender prejudice is another such. If you think that XX vs XY is the alpha and omega of this, or if toilets worry you so much, you need to get real, and get a bit more educated. There's no mild way of putting it. You are part of the problem, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 06:27 PM

There we are Steve, you haven't disappointed me. Insulting posters on here is definitely your forte.
I'm out of here.
Cheerio everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: John P
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 06:32 PM

Sorry Senoufou, but your first post in this discussion was seriously insulting. Do you really not know that?

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:48 PM

I'm not out to insult anyone. But there are are times when it is important to speak directly to people whose minds seem to be closed. The thing is that it's so easy to hide behind this "bugger off, you are just being PC" brainlessness, as three people in this thread have done. This attitude feeds into the repression of people who genuinely can't help the position they find themselves in. They live in a state of lifelong personal turmoil, fuelled in large part by the prejudices of the majority, while you fret about what toilets they can use. Wow.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 09:34 PM

XO XXY XYY and so on also exist... As do androgen insensitivity and fetally androgenized females, as the term used to be (I hope). Also the phrase "the opposite sex" needs to be retired. There are more than 2 and they aren't opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM

"Trans women in bathrooms doesn't bother me. If it did, I'd figure it was me who had the problem"
Amen to that - I got over my problem after my 'Isle of Dogs' traumatic experience (described above)
Mixed gender public conveniences are now fairly commomplace in Ireland (never thought I'd see the day!)
It used to amuse me when they first came out when you'd see a queue of women outside the 'Ladies' (women's toilets seem to be designed to generate queues) and a mixed sex one next door with empty cubicles
I lost count of the times I've been given a look of horror when I suggested that the queuers might try next door
Doesn't happen nowadays
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:47 AM

I wonder if the problem would cease to exist for some of those who wish to change if society treated people as PEOPLE not M & F in areas where gender is irrelevant. It always seemed ridiculous to me that before you can chat to a new mother about her baby you need to know whether to say 'he' or 'she'. I suppose I might get used to 'they' in the singular, 'Ms' doesn't sound as clumsy now as it did 50 years ago.
Society changes slowly.
Luckily I was always treated as an individual.
Mo short for M...? (my internet net was unintentionally genderfree but I'm glad it is)

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:56 AM

Martina Navratilova created a storm when she opined on transgender tennis players.

Her reasoning was that a man could change gender, play in womens' tennis and on retirement change back.

Now the mechanics of that concept is, admittedly, oversimplified but there is a worrying truth in there. And if athletes are prepared to use drugs to compete at the highest levels regardless of the long-term consequences why not surgery? Such surgical debate is rife in the arena of paralympics.

Money talks. And pays scant regard to fairness. And hormones are drugs, particularly when they are administered.

What is argued as fair for one is not necessarily fair for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 06:16 AM

"who wish to change if society treated people as PEOPLE not M & F in areas where gender is irrelevant"
I suggest that it is the left who have embraced feminism far more readily than have those happy with the status quo Mo
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jos
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 07:21 AM

Regarding Ms, perhaps the female of Mister should be Mistress - meaning an independent woman making her own way in the world, whether or not she has a man or anyone else in tow.
Any suggestions for an equivalent that doesn't reveal the sex or the gender of the person using the title?

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM

The female of mister IS mistress. The gender-neutral address is Mx (equivalent to Mr/Ms).

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Jos
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 08:10 AM

Thank you Mrrzy, I shall use Mx in future. But where did the unnecessary 'Mrs' or 'Missis' come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 12:46 PM

It *was* necessary [quotes] when women were either Miss (I still belong to my father) or Mrs (I now belong to this other guy). Ms was invented later... And Mx even later.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 01:27 PM

How do we pronounce Mx?

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:56 PM

Mix with more of a schwa

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:12 PM

🤙         🤙

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM

"They" as a gender-neutral singular has been in use for at least five hundred years. I think it's perfectly good and is much better than clumsy constructions such as "he/she," "he or she" or the laughable "s/he." Quite often I have to reply to a letter in which the writer hasn't given away their gender, usually some official or other. I hate writing "Dear Sir/Madam" or similar horrors, so I occasionally resort to things like "Dear Customer Services Manager" (if in doubt, always promote them).

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 02:42 AM

I have used (s)he and herm just to make a point.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:35 AM

I wouldn't be sure what 'point' you are making though. A quick scroll up suggests anti.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 06:36 AM

masculine/feminine/boy/girl...................end of!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:39 AM

Not I, said the little fat pig.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:54 PM

Someone in my family who was raised as a boy is having a Coming Out party at her workplace on March 8, and I'm invited. I'm planning to attend but anxious about transportation. It's in a big city which I stopped driving to several years ago, so I'll have to take a commuter train and subway. And of course I'll have to drive to the train station about 20 minutes from home. (To a Rhode Islander, that's far!) I'm hoping for good weather and safe driving conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:02 PM

I wish you good fortune and I hope it's the best party ever!

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 09:59 PM

Thank you, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 08:30 PM

https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html
Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex. ... In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.

https://www2.palomar.edu/anthro/abnormal/abnormal_5.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:28 PM

Someone sent me a note, disappointed that Senoufou was leaving the BS forum because she was trounced by another member. So I read most of this thread, and I have to say in this instance that "antediluvian" is not meant unkindly and it does seem rather accurate. Perhaps in the time away from the BS section she will consider that there is a reason people object to the statement that "One is born with either XX or XY chromosomes, and nothing can alter that.
One can dress as one wishes, adopt the appearance of either sex and have whatever sexuality one prefers.
But even a 'sex-change operation' can't alter one's sex."

I've looked for, but can't find (so far) a link to a radio science discussion I heard recently about research that indicates that human gender has the potential to be much more fluid than we understand right now. That the gene fragment that allows fish and frogs to change from female to male, if a population suddenly finds itself without a male, it's in humans also. And it's beginning to look like the "gender" process is far more biologically complicated than 'you're just one thing or another. Period.'

Jeri said Someone who appears to be a woman going into a men's bathroom is (IMO) going to freak more people out than if she went into a women's bathroom, entered a stall and closed the door. A transgender woman being forced to go into the mens room because she was born with a penis is far more frightening (for that individual), in my opinion, than that transgender woman using the women's room would be to other women in the room.

Subject: RE: BS: Change of sex prior to 18
From: mg
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 11:46 PM

what scares people, including me, about the bathroom situation is people..namely pervert men no where on the gender continuum except on the very very male side, will use the law to linger in women's bathrooms. Has nothing to do with transgender people but non-transgender people. Male creeps in a women's bathroom could assault women or particularly girls. Not everyone who is afraid of this is wanting to deny transgender women a bathroom but I would hope everyone would realize this is a very real possibility. I am worried when creepy creeps even get to share sequentially mixed gender bathrooms..a young girl shouldn't have to be even in a line with a creepy creep. Oh but it would never happen. It has happened at least twice to me.