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Corbyns second referendum proposal

The Sandman 27 Feb 19 - 05:34 AM
Raggytash 27 Feb 19 - 05:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Feb 19 - 05:39 AM
The Sandman 27 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Feb 19 - 09:24 AM
RTim 27 Feb 19 - 09:30 AM
Roger the Skiffler 27 Feb 19 - 09:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Feb 19 - 09:42 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM
Iains 27 Feb 19 - 11:36 AM
The Sandman 27 Feb 19 - 11:53 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Feb 19 - 12:46 PM
Iains 27 Feb 19 - 01:05 PM
Big Al Whittle 27 Feb 19 - 01:27 PM
Iains 27 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM
Big Al Whittle 27 Feb 19 - 02:09 PM
The Sandman 27 Feb 19 - 03:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Feb 19 - 03:58 PM
Big Al Whittle 27 Feb 19 - 05:07 PM
The Sandman 27 Feb 19 - 05:17 PM
bobad 27 Feb 19 - 05:42 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Feb 19 - 06:26 PM
bobad 27 Feb 19 - 06:40 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Feb 19 - 08:27 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Feb 19 - 03:16 AM
Iains 28 Feb 19 - 04:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Feb 19 - 04:14 AM
The Sandman 28 Feb 19 - 04:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Feb 19 - 05:36 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Feb 19 - 05:50 AM
Iains 28 Feb 19 - 07:00 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Feb 19 - 09:59 AM
The Sandman 28 Feb 19 - 10:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Feb 19 - 10:52 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 28 Feb 19 - 11:18 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 28 Feb 19 - 11:19 AM
The Sandman 28 Feb 19 - 12:23 PM
Iains 28 Feb 19 - 12:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM
The Sandman 01 Mar 19 - 01:37 AM
DMcG 01 Mar 19 - 02:09 AM
Big Al Whittle 01 Mar 19 - 02:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Mar 19 - 02:57 AM
Big Al Whittle 01 Mar 19 - 03:07 AM
The Sandman 01 Mar 19 - 03:12 AM
Iains 01 Mar 19 - 03:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Mar 19 - 03:43 AM
DMcG 01 Mar 19 - 04:13 AM
Stanron 01 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM
DMcG 01 Mar 19 - 12:01 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Mar 19 - 05:41 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 19 - 03:34 AM
Iains 02 Mar 19 - 03:40 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Mar 19 - 05:31 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Mar 19 - 06:16 PM
robomatic 02 Mar 19 - 10:14 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 19 - 03:25 AM
The Sandman 03 Mar 19 - 04:50 AM
Iains 03 Mar 19 - 05:30 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Mar 19 - 06:05 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Mar 19 - 06:19 AM
Iains 03 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Mar 19 - 06:43 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM
The Sandman 03 Mar 19 - 07:44 AM
Iains 03 Mar 19 - 08:05 AM
Iains 03 Mar 19 - 09:03 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM
Mossback 03 Mar 19 - 10:52 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 19 - 11:01 AM
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Jim Carroll 03 Mar 19 - 11:46 AM
Iains 03 Mar 19 - 03:09 PM
DMcG 03 Mar 19 - 05:47 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Mar 19 - 07:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Mar 19 - 05:34 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 19 - 11:23 AM
Iains 04 Mar 19 - 03:26 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM
Iains 04 Mar 19 - 05:27 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Mar 19 - 05:34 PM
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Steve Shaw 04 Mar 19 - 05:57 PM
Iains 04 Mar 19 - 06:09 PM
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bobad 04 Mar 19 - 06:40 PM
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Steve Shaw 04 Mar 19 - 07:18 PM
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Steve Shaw 04 Mar 19 - 09:11 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 03:15 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 03:18 AM
Iains 05 Mar 19 - 03:24 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 Mar 19 - 03:45 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 04:06 AM
David Carter (UK) 05 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 05:38 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Mar 19 - 06:22 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 07:13 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 07:24 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Mar 19 - 07:35 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Mar 19 - 08:02 AM
Iains 05 Mar 19 - 08:27 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 08:28 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 Mar 19 - 09:13 AM
Raggytash 05 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Mar 19 - 09:45 AM
Iains 05 Mar 19 - 09:51 AM
Raggytash 05 Mar 19 - 09:54 AM
DMcG 05 Mar 19 - 10:05 AM
Iains 05 Mar 19 - 10:19 AM
Raggytash 05 Mar 19 - 10:25 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 10:42 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 10:45 AM
Iains 05 Mar 19 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 19 - 12:30 PM
Iains 05 Mar 19 - 02:29 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Mar 19 - 03:04 PM
DMcG 05 Mar 19 - 03:04 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Mar 19 - 03:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Mar 19 - 03:13 PM
Iains 05 Mar 19 - 04:10 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Mar 19 - 07:22 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Mar 19 - 10:33 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 03:39 AM
Iains 06 Mar 19 - 03:58 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Mar 19 - 04:38 AM
David Carter (UK) 06 Mar 19 - 05:21 AM
Iains 06 Mar 19 - 06:15 AM
Iains 06 Mar 19 - 06:23 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 08:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Mar 19 - 10:12 AM
Iains 06 Mar 19 - 06:08 PM
robomatic 06 Mar 19 - 06:40 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 07:41 PM
Iains 06 Mar 19 - 08:03 PM
DMcG 07 Mar 19 - 03:18 AM
David Carter (UK) 07 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM
Iains 07 Mar 19 - 03:55 AM
DMcG 07 Mar 19 - 04:09 AM
Iains 07 Mar 19 - 04:19 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 04:22 AM
DMcG 07 Mar 19 - 04:26 AM
Iains 07 Mar 19 - 04:32 AM
DMcG 07 Mar 19 - 04:36 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 04:42 AM
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Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 05:37 AM
Iains 07 Mar 19 - 05:42 AM
Iains 07 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM
David Carter (UK) 07 Mar 19 - 08:59 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Mar 19 - 10:29 AM
Big Al Whittle 07 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Mar 19 - 05:08 PM
Backwoodsman 07 Mar 19 - 05:42 PM
DMcG 08 Mar 19 - 02:51 AM
Iains 08 Mar 19 - 03:24 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 19 - 04:06 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Mar 19 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 19 - 05:15 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Mar 19 - 05:40 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Mar 19 - 05:51 AM
DMcG 08 Mar 19 - 06:13 AM
David Carter (UK) 08 Mar 19 - 06:28 AM
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David Carter (UK) 08 Mar 19 - 06:51 AM
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Subject: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:34 AM

Opinions please


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:39 AM

I have a feeling this issue will be fully dealt with on the Brexit thread Dick.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:39 AM

First things first. This would not be the second referendum asking if we should stay in the EU but the third.

The first was on 5 June 1975 in the United Kingdom to gauge support for the country's continued membership of the European Communities (EC)

The second was on Thursday 23 June 2016. The United Kingdom voted for the second time in 41 years on its membership to what is now known as the European Union (EU)


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM

no dave , you are wrong 1975 was about the EEC, THEY ARE DIFFERENT THE eecIS DIFFERENT FROM THE EU


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:24 AM

It would actually be the first referendum. Both the others asked more or less the same question. This one will presumably be asking us to choose between a particular deal or remaining. Very different. But it isn't the point. It shouldn't even be on the table, because any politician worth their salt should be running a mile from brexit and insisting that we remain in the EU in the country's best interests.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: RTim
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:30 AM

As the first one was deemed by the Courts - Illegal; but could not be Voided as it was supposed to be Non-binding and only Advisory....It seems the only real option should be another Referendum - one where you really know what is being voted for.....

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:40 AM

I would prefer Gen. Election but would settle for second Referendum. There would be no point in a General Election if both parties still divided on Brexit, so clear Labour "Remain" and clear Tory "Leave" would settle issue once and for all. I am a Remainer and believe many (most?) leavers were misled and ignorant of the true cost of Leave. Now they have no excuse: let's see if they still vote the same. Those Labour MPs in Leave constituencies who are scared to com out as Remainers ought to be able to point their members to job losses already happening and loss of worker rights and protection if we leave Europe. Any racist "they're taking our jobs" anti-immigrant people have no place in a Labour party. Are we going to see redundant Nissan workers rushing to pick swedes in Lincolnshire or retrain to work in care homes and NHS? I doubt it.

Rant over.
RtS


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:42 AM

In what way are they different, Dick?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM

There's no more talk from leavers about all those golden opportunities outside the EU and there's definitely no more NHS bus money, and Theresa May is far more undemocratic than the EU, so the only reasons left for voting leave are xenophobic and racist ones.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 11:36 AM

Of course the fact the vote was to leave the EU the first time around, and confirmed by a subsequent General Election and overwhelming vote for article 50, is considered meaningless by remainiacs.
Democracy is founded on a democratic vote strangely enough.
We are ruled by our elected representatives by consent.
Betray the democratic vote and trust is withdrawn.

Civil wars have been fought over less.

That is the situation we find ourselves in and no amount of parroting about this and that will alter the fact.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 11:53 AM

Dave gnome ,do some research if you do not know the difference , if there was no difference what was the point of renaming it? .


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 12:46 PM

"It shouldn't even be on the table, because any politician worth their salt should be running a mile from brexit and insisting that we remain in the EU in the country's best interests."

Couldn't agree more!!!


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:05 PM

Should the democratic vote be overturned the next step in federalism will be full political union, totally centralised taxation, national legislatures rendered obsolete, AN EU defence force supplanting Nato and full on gallop towards a United States of Europe.
Whinge and witter as you will but that is the roadmap set out!
Also when the next depression strikes it is your bank accounts that will be raided.
You can depend upon it!


https://www.federalists.eu/fileadmin/files_uef/Events/2018/Milan_march_training_weekend/Milan_Reading_list_ONLINE.pdf

eg-ego.eu/en/threads/models-and-stereotypes/model-europe/georg-kreis-concepts-of-europe-federalism-federal-state-confederation-o
https://www.cairn.info/revue-l-europe-en-formation-2012-1-page-325.htm


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:27 PM

yes but are you for a second referendum?

if you are, how should JC go about getting it?

Is it in fact a cynical ploy to stop the haemorrhage of MP's from the Labour Party?

I really don't want to hear all the well worn abuse of the campaign - that will start up soon enough if we have a second referendum.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM

Big Al Corbyn has major major problems with credibility. He has been anti EU since the year dot. His nearest and dearest in the party are hell bent on remaining. To keep them sweet he has to change tack and support remain. This quite clearly demonstrates he has no morality and will betray anything and anyone if he thinks it will serve him well. His party membership may be over the moon but the electorate in the heartlands will extract their revenge for his betrayal of them.
I do not expect to see him on the scene in a years time.
Come the next election there will be a reckoning unprecedented in british politics. This assumes hell does not break loose first. This is not a good place to be!


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 02:09 PM

as Dame Edith Evans once said - i think you are confusing me with someone who gives a shit....

i think it will take more than the current mass neurosis to disrupt voting patterns.

As Christopher Logue wrote, I will vote Labour or my balls will drop off.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:14 PM

TheresaMay destroyed her credibilty a long time ago, which rather lessens the so called lack of credibilty of JC. I DO NOT EXPECT TO SEE HER AROUND IN A YEARS TIME


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:58 PM

Dave gnome ,do some research

I have done extensive research, Dick. The EEC was a trade organisation. The EU is a trade organisation. Beyond that the EU had introduced its own currency and the Schengen Agreement, neither of which we subscribe to. In addition there are EU laws, which we assist in drafting and cross community cooperation on science and culture. So, basically, it is just the same as it was, with added benefits.

Now, you tell me how you think that the 2016 question was any different to the 1975 one.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:07 PM

well there were seven countries then, theres more now.

i don't think its worth discussing. No one listens to what you say. They make up all sorts of bullshit to support their arguments. Then they call you names.

I do think its worth discussing this second referendum though. I think it offers the chance of resolution of an issue that has been very divisive.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:17 PM

gNOME, READ THIS CAREFULLY.The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957.[2] Upon the formation of the European Union (EU) in 1993, the EEC was incorporated and renamed as the European Community (EC). In 2009 the EC's institutions were absorbed into the EU's wider framework and the community ceased to exist.

The Community's initial aim was to bring about economic integration, including a common market and customs union, among its six founding members: Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and West Germany. It gained a common set of institutions along with the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Atomic Energy Community (EURATOM) as one of the European Communities under the 1965 Merger Treaty (Treaty of Brussels). In 1993, a complete single market was achieved, known as the internal market, which allowed for the free movement of goods, capital, services, and people within the EEC. In 1994, the internal market was formalised by the EEA agreement. This agreement also extended the internal market to include most of the member states of the European Free Trade Association, forming the European Economic Area covering 15 countries.

Upon the entry into force of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, the EEC was renamed the European Community to reflect that it covered a wider range than economic policy. This was also when the three European Communities, including the EC, were collectively made to constitute the first of the three pillars of the European Union, which the treaty also founded. The EC existed in this form until it was abolished by the 2009 Treaty of Lisbon, which incorporated the EC's institutions into the EU's wider framework and provided that the EU would "replace and succeed the European Community".

The EEC was also known as the Common Market in the English-speaking countries and sometimes referred to as the European Community even before it was officially renamed as such in 1993.
gnome, please note
1.The Community's initial aim was to bring about economic integration, including a common market and customs union
2,Upon the entry into force of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, the EEC was renamed the European Community to reflect that it covered a wider range than economic policy.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:42 PM

They make up all sorts of bullshit to support their arguments. Then they call you names.

Al succinctly sums up the modus operandi of the resident regressive left cabal. Bravo.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 06:26 PM

Speaketh the cowardly pseudo-man who called perfectly decent people Jew-haters from beneath the parapet. You hypocrite.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 06:40 PM

Boom!.....Al's characterization hits the target.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 08:27 PM

And with friends like you, why would Al need enemies?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 03:16 AM

"You hypocrite."
AS he busts a gut supporting a regime which is now openly supporting anti=Semitic parties and racist groups which are even being condemned by Jewish religious leaders as comparable to the KKK, you may write that down in very large letters Steve
I can think of six million people who would be very proud of him

The greatest and most open hypocrisy here comes from those who have constantly used 'the democratic people's choice' as an argument for leaving Europe but would choose to walk over red-hot razor blades rather than confirm that choice now the consequences of that decision has become clear
It seems that, to some, 'the people's choice' is only valid when it coincides with their own
Jim


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 04:14 AM

Can anyone understand the following from our member from the timewarp 1940's?

"The greatest and most open hypocrisy here comes from those who have constantly used 'the democratic people's choice' as an argument for leaving Europe but would choose to walk over red-hot razor blades rather than confirm that choice now the consequences of that decision has become clear"

Is it something in the water?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 04:14 AM

Dick, I asked how you think it is different. You provided a stock cut and paste that summarised with the following phrase

Upon the entry into force of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, the EEC was renamed the European Community to reflect that it covered a wider range than economic policy.

I state one again that of that 'wider range' we subscribe to neither the common currency nor the Schengen agreement. We do partake in the deciding which laws are enacted and in cross community scientific and cultural exchange. The main aim of the EU that we subscribe to is the same as the aim that the EEC had in 1975, I.E. integrated economic policy.

Now, once again, how you think it is different?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 04:28 AM

The answer is in the clip i sent you read it, its there.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:36 AM

I have read it. It does not tell me what you think is the difference between the EEC and the EU other than 'it covers a wider range than economic policy'. What bits of that 'wider range' do you believe makes any difference to how the EU works with the UK now compared to how it did in 1975? We are not in the Euro zone. We are not part of the Schengen agreement. As far as I am concerned, there is nothing in that 'wider range' that significantly alters the UKs relationship with the EU. You think there is. What makes you think that?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:50 AM

And, while we are members, there will be no European army and no ever-closer union, because if the UK says no it can't happen. And we have said no.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 07:00 AM

And we have said no.
but the EU says yes.
They know a teensy wheensy bit more than a pontificating exteacher I reckon

https://euobserver.com/institutional/139630

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/853604/Jean-Claude-Juncker-veto-power-EU-remove-government-trade-deal

I recall some person demanding the tide go back. The episode is frequently alluded to in contexts where the futility of "trying to stop the tide" of an inexorable event is pointed out.

Are you paying attention shaw?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:59 AM

Well...does anybody think my thoughts about Corbyn and the second referendum are worth discussing. How should he achieve this?
And would it resolve the conflict if your side didn't win?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 10:43 AM

Dave read it again it is all explained, it covers a wider range than economic policy
The European Union Today

Today the EU is still dealing with many major issues (including the ongoing migration crisis and the upcoming Brexit). And, amid rising concerns with Brexit, the EU has reportedly begun considering creating an independent system to conduct financial transactions - that would exclude the United States, according to Newsweek.

German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas wrote in German paper Handelsblatt about concerns over the current state of financial affairs in the EU, especially in relation to the United States.

"Where the U.S. crosses red lines, we as Europeans must counterbalance," Maas wrote in an opinion piece. "It is, therefore, essential that we strengthen European autonomy by setting up payment channels independent of the USA, creating a European Monetary Fund and building an independent Swift system."

However, apart from EU-U.S. tensions, the union is caught in the middle of several other controversies.How Is the European Union Governed?

As mentioned earlier, the European Union is governed by three main bodies - the EU Council, the EU Parliament and the EU Commission.

The Council's main job is to create and propose new policies and legislation for the European Union; it operates under a different EU president every six months.

The Parliament then debates and passes the laws proposed by the Council, electing members once every five years.

Finally, the Commission enforces and operates the laws for the European Union - the current president of which is Jean-Claude Juncker (until 2019).

Additionally, the European Central Bank services the EU's financial needs and manages things like inflation rates and foreign exchange reserves.

Still, individual citizens allegedly have say in the democratically structured union. According to the official site, citizens have a variety of ways to contribute, including "by giving their views on EU policies during their development or suggest improvements to existing laws and policies. The European citizens' initiative empowers citizens to have a greater say on EU policies that affect their lives. Citizens can also submit complaints and inquiries concerning the application of EU law."


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 10:52 AM

Yes, Dick. I know all that. It has not affected the UK one bit and the line about "the EU reportedly begun considering creating an independent system to conduct financial transactions" is just speculation. If the UK were in the EU we could vote against or even veto this proposal if we did not like it. Outside the EU we can do sweet FA about it.

The EU is different as we all know. You have failed to present any evidence that the UKs position in the EU is any different to what it was in 1975.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 11:18 AM


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 11:19 AM

Oh RATS... sorry, you guys... all I meant to click was the Add To Tracer thingy, not the message textbox. (I hates touch-screens, I does. Damn things keep jumping around, got a life of their own.)

While I'm on here: Can anybody tell me how to enable the BS section to show? I just downloaded a new browser and it's hidden from view by default for some reason. (I mean, why waste time working when you can argue with folks on the internet, right?) Thanks in advance -

#gluttonforpunishment


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 12:23 PM

the EU itself states that it is different.1.The Community's initial aim was to bring about economic integration, including a common market and customs union .
2,Upon the entry into force of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, the EEC was renamed the European Community to reflect that it covered a wider range than economic policy.
tHE EUROPEAN COMUNITY states that its pupose is to cover wider range than econmic policy, i suggest you contact them and ask.
i have more important things to do as a possible result of a no deal fuck up like changing my driving licence, i have not got time to waste on your pedantic shit


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 12:43 PM

Brexit or no Brexit, you are supposed to swap your British licence for an Irish one if you are resident in Ireland for more than 100 days. That law has never been enforced and didn’t matter while both licences were European.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM

The EU has changed since 1975. The UKs position in it has not. The major changes in the EU, the Eurozone and the Schengen Agreement do not affect us one jot. That is not being pedantic. Just stating fact. The other fact is that you have not come up with anything to dispute that so you are resorting to abuse. Fair enough, no skin off my nose but does nothing for your argument.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 01:37 AM

Dave, this thread is about Corbyns second referendeum stick to the subject if you want to discuss other things start a new thread.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 02:09 AM

To be a little pedantic: there is no such thing as Corbyn's second referendum. There is a movement from a wide number of people and bodies with backing from some parts of the media, like "The Independent". To suggest it is Corbyn's is misleading.

If you mean you are interested in why he has decided to get behind the idea now, or what alternatives he wants to see on such a referendum, that is fair enough, but those things don't really distinguish him from any other supporter of the idea. And, based on the thread so far, those aspects don't seem to be what is being discussed.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 02:50 AM

well yes, there is no thing called Corbyn's 2nd referendum.

but if he wanted it - how would he go about getting it., and would it go any way to solving all the argy bargy?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 02:57 AM

Dave, this thread is about Corbyns second referendeum stick to the subject if you want to discuss other things start a new thread.

I am discussing the referendum, Dick. As long as you keep referring to it as the second referendum, I shall keep disputing that. It is a fact that there have already been 2 referendums on whether we stay in Eurore, one in 1975 and one in 2016. You keep saying they were different but as yet you have not come up with anything showing what was different about them.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 03:07 AM

the number is immaterial. the question is could it be effected. And would it help the situation?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 03:12 AM

stick to the subject , dave, i have messaged you if you want to discuss the effects of the lisbon treaty and maastricht on the uk start another thread ans stop messing this one up


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 03:38 AM

The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957

By the Maastricht Treaty (formally known as the Treaty on European Union; 1991), which went into force on November 1, 1993, the European Economic Community was renamed the European Community and was embedded into the EU as the first of its three “pillars”

The Treaty of Maastricht (1992) created the European Union as a single body of "three pillars". The pillars consist of the:
1) European Communities(the EEC),
2) Common Foreign and Security Policy
2) Cooperation in Justice and Home affairs.

referendum one voted on one pillar
referendum 2 voted on three pillars

There is a significant difference between the content of the two referendums, and not just numerical.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 03:43 AM

My point is material to this tbread, Dick. If you have any issues with my postings I suggest you take it up with the moderation team. You said it was the second referendum in public. I am not going to argue against that in private.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 04:13 AM

well yes, there is no thing called Corbyn's 2nd referendum.

but if he wanted it - how would he go about getting it., and would it go any way to solving all the argy bargy?


I made my point about it not being Coebyn's referendum because there is something called 'framing' which can distort things substantially. There are people who would never vote for anything if it came from th3 Tories. There are also people who would never vote for anything if it came from Labour. So calling this 'Corbyn's referendum" will, intentionally or otherwise, amplify that distortion.

How will Labour go about getting a second referendum? There is talk of nodding through May's deal in exchange for the referendum. That is probably not acceptable to May, but if she did agree it would work.

Argy-bargy is, I am afraid, our fate for a decade or so more irrespective. If May's deal is accepted - well done, we have got the easy bit out of the way. Now come years of tough arguments about each and every deal. If we go to a referendum the arguments will continue unless one side or the other wins by a huge margin - at least 20% I would say. If remain win by 52-48 for example, most leavers who have said "We won, get over it" will suddenly think that is not a persuasive a4gument at all. If leave win, I suspect a lot more remainers will accept it, but it won't stop them pointing out every problem and blaming it on Brexit.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

The 'Peoples Vote was described on last night's Question Time as a 'Rigged Referendum' because it gives Leavers no choice. Since the last referendum resulted in a vote to leave the only valid referendum to follow it would be a choice between leaving with May's deal or leaving on WTO rules. That would be a referendum I would support, as would most leave supporters. Of course the Remainers would not allow that to happen..


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 12:01 PM

We are all prone to have too high an opinion of ourselves. That would be the only referendum you regard as valid. Which is a completely different thing from the only valid referendum.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 05:41 PM

"Gives leavers no choice?" Of course it does! A vote for May's deal means we leave. Geddit, Stanron?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:34 AM

"The 'Peoples Vote was described on last night's Question Time as a 'Rigged Referendum' because it gives Leavers no choice"
What an incredibly stupid statement
The first referendum gave those who didn't want to leave no choice
THe first decision was taking with being resented with a plan of what sould happen if Britain left and no idea of what effect leaving would have on the lives of the British People
There is still no plan (not even on how to leave) but we are daily being given examples of what is likely to happen
THE ECONOMISTS VIEW
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:40 AM

What an incredibly stupid statement
The first referendum gave those who didn't want to leave no choice

You are absolutely correct!
The above statement is incredibly stupid. Like many others you author.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:31 PM

of course they had a choice to get off their arses and vote.

however, if it would settle things more decisively, I'm all in favour of giving everyone a doggy's chance and voting again.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:16 PM

In my view it's more a matter of principle, Al, rather than worrying about getting a decisive result. I saw an Emily Thornberry interview (with Stephen Mangan!) in which she expressed the same sentiment as you. We were lied to by both sides in the referendum campaign and were thereby hobbled when it came to making an informed decision. If we really want to rely on referendums (which I personally don't), then another one now would at least be predicated on a better knowledge of the issues. Of course, there would be a campaign and there would be more lies on both sides. That's depressing and I wonder how we've let it come to this. But, to coin a cliche, it could be the least of many evils. What a bugger.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 10:14 PM

A week or so ago John Oliver on Last Week Tonight made the point that Democracies elect politicians to make informed decisions on complex topics. Reducing it to an up or down decision on the part of an ill-informed public (Here he showed segments from the Gogglebox series, a show about people watching TV) is an abdication of responsibility on the part of responsible parties.

As far as a last moment re-referendum, is there time left before the end of the month to set one up?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:25 AM

"of course they had a choice to get off their arses and vote."
Many people saw no reason to - they were not given any facts and even the leavers didn't expect to win
The voting system in Britain is based on promises nobody has the slightest intention of keeping, which is why so many don't use it - those who do have little confidence of those they elect

This started over the stupid statement that if there was a second vote, it would be unfair to the Leavers
The democracy of allowing people to confirm their decision now they have more of a picture of what is likely to happen seems not an issue with those who envisage a change of mind
Brexit was always sold as a cat in a bag and the animal seems to have inconveniently torn its way out too early
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 04:50 AM

some people have said to me that they think thatif there was a second referndum, that the vote might be to remain they base the argument on younger voters having an increased percentage of the vote ,two years in which more younger peoole will be eligible and in which there maybe less older leave voters, i do not know but it does seem logical.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 05:30 AM

You overlook the dynamics of the situation as expressed by the following obvious quote:
If a man is not a socialist by the time he is 20, he has no heart. If he is not a conservative by the time he is 40, he has no brain.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:05 AM

A Tory at any age has no conscience, no scruples, is riddled with self-interest and believes in the devil taking the hindmost. Unless, of course, he's stupid.

Here's a quote from a piece in the Guardian entitled "The Tories' response to raging Islamophobia? Turn a blind eye" It actually makes horrifying reading:

On Thursday’s BBC Politics Live show, the Conservative MP Henry Smith dismissed claims of Islamophobia in the Conservative party, citing the fact he personally had not seen any anti-Muslim discrimination.

Yet we have a fair idea as to just how Islamophobia has taken hold among the party’s support base and how its leadership is responding to such attitudes.

The latest report from Hope Not Hate gives some indication of where these sentiments may come from. Almost half (49%) of Conservative voters see Islam as a threat to the British way of life, with a similar number (47%) believing the false conspiracy theory that there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates and non-Muslims cannot enter.

Islamophobia and negative attitudes towards Muslims are very much established within sections of British society – where 18% of people believe “Muslim immigration to this country is part of a bigger plan to make Muslims a majority of this country’s population” and 31% of young children believe Muslims are taking over England.

However, the latest statistics split by party preference show that there is a particular tendency for anti-Muslim racists to vote for the Conservative party, over and above others.

While we cannot be certain of the driver, it is noticeable that these sentiments appear at the same time as the Conservative party is being seen to be trying to placate the hard right. Let’s look at one of the statistics – about Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (popularly known as Tommy Robinson), who is described as a far-right Islamophobic extremist by Hope Not Hate.

An unbelievable 42% of Tory voters have a positive view of the way Yaxley-Lennon highlights issues ignored by the media (compared with 18% of Labour voters).

One might have assumed that such a positive view about a widely reviled and hateful figure would not have any place in a modern Conservative party membership.


Worth remembering when we read constantly only about the confected and highly hypocritical brouhaha about "Labour antisemitism"...


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:19 AM

Very inconvenient things, facts.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM

Worth remembering when we read constantly only about the confected and highly hypocritical brouhaha about "Labour antisemitism"...

The laddie jests!

Jewish group may split from Labour amid growing row over antisemitism
Peter Mason, national secretary of the Jewish Labour Movement, says members are considering whether to end a 99-year affiliation

https://news.sky.com/story/jewish-group-may-split-from-labour-amid-growing-row-over-antisemitism-11653026
JEREMY Corbyn's leadership has been dogged by an ongoing row over anti-Semitism among activists and officials of the Labour Party.

It culminated in Scotland Yard launching a criminal investigation into alleged hate crimes - and seven MPs quitting in protest at the failure to tackle the problem.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4548219/labour-anti-semitism-row-jeremy-corbyn/

Tis a funny thing! The news worldwide today reports extensively on Labour antisemitism

Is it merely false news,or a confection?
The evidence overwhelmingly says no! Labour MPs quitting over the issue, police investigations and still leftards would explain it away as a canard.

Where does delusion and denial cross into crass stupidity I ask myself.
'Twould seem my quote above is accuracy personified.

Terrible things facts.
con·fect·ed,
To make into a confection or preserve.
A sweet confection, such as candy.

Nothing sweet about antisemitism, neither are your attempts to trivialize it.

SHAMEFUL!


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:43 AM

We're not seeing these inconvenient facts on BBC News, or plastered all over the front pages of The Daily Heil or The Torygraph! Wonder why not?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM

Cheers for that, John. We could post tons of factual extracts from our sources which demonstrate clearly that rampant Tory Islamophobia and racism makes Labour's antisemitism (which does exist and which requires firm action) look like a kid pinching Spangles from Woolies. But, in the words of Michelle Obama, let them go low. We'll go high. Comparisons are probably invidious, but so is hypocrisy and bigotry.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:44 AM

interesting article irish times weekend review sat march2 by denis staunton did you read it Jim Carroll?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 08:05 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:05 AM
confected and highly hypocritical brouhaha about "Labour antisemitism".
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM
Labour's antisemitism (which does exist and which requires firm action)


To confect= to make up

A bit of a volte-face there shaw

Was it those unassailable, incontrovertible facts caused the screeching about turn in less than an hour? or do you not remember your previous post?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:03 AM

and I suppose this chappie is simply scotch mist?


https://order-order.com/2019/03/03/mcdonnell-labour-clearly-problem-anti-semitism/


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM

I don't think we're going to discuss this subject.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Mossback
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:52 AM

The latest report from Hope Not Hate gives some indication of where these sentiments may come from. Almost half (49%) of Conservative voters see Islam as a threat to the British way of life, with a similar number (47%) believing the false conspiracy theory that there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates and non-Muslims cannot enter.

It is somewhat comforting to know that all the absolute fuckwits are not in the United States.

Pardon my schadenfreude.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 11:01 AM

"did you read it Jim Carroll?"
No, enlighten me - I threw out the IT when I'd done the crosswords
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 11:01 AM

"did you read it Jim Carroll?"
No, enlighten me - I threw out the IT when I'd done the crosswords
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 11:46 AM

JEWISH "SELF HATERS" WHOSE VIEWS ARE IGNORED

ANOTHER - AND WHAT IT'S REALLY ABOUT
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 11:46 AM

JEWISH "SELF HATERS" WHOSE VIEWS ARE IGNORED

ANOTHER - AND WHAT IT'S REALLY ABOUT
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:09 PM

More up to the minute news from Guido. Accurate factual reporting at its best!

Labour MP Caroline Flint says that thwarting Brexit would be an affront to democracy. All in glorious technicolour for those that have difficulty accepting the written word.

https://order-order.com/2019/03/03/flint-labour-mps-back-mays-deal/


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 05:47 PM

I am sure Kate Hoey thinks the same.

It doesn't mean their opinion is mainstream in Labour.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:07 PM

Caroline Flint, Gawd bless 'er, has been a serial opportunist for many a yonk! I bet the independent brigade, whatever they are currently calling themselves, are praying that she won't join 'em...


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM

I would like to point out that the thread was started on a completely false premise.

1. It is not the second referendum and
2. It is not Corbyn's proposal.

Not so much a thread title as a Daily Mail headline.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 05:34 AM

True on both points.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 11:23 AM

"Caroline Flint, Gawd bless 'er, has been a serial opportunist for many a yonk! "
Expenses fiddler and (there goes that name again) A FRIEND OF ISRAEL I wonder what they are all going to do when Nessie gets his come-uppance for CORRUPTION
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 03:26 PM

"Caroline Flint, Gawd bless 'er, has been a serial opportunist for many a yonk! "
Expenses fiddler and (there goes that name again) A FRIEND OF ISRAEL..


Perhaps jimmie could explain why he has to highlight the fact the young lady is a friend of Israel as though it is some kind of sin?
Do we have to add antisemitism to jimmies numerous list of faults?
How else are we supposed to interpret his post above?

He makes negative statements about a person and immediately allies that person with Israel.

On 26 May 2016, the Plenary in Bucharest decided to:
Adopt the following working definition of antisemitism:
“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews.


Are the mods going to allow this diatribe of Jim's to be unchallenged and unsanctioned?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM

A quarter of Israel's population are not Jews. This is one reason among many others why criticism of "Israel" (personally, I prefer to refer to the "Israeli regime") is never antisemitic. Antisemitism is attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. I don't criticise the building of an apartheid wall, the discrimination against Palestinians, the ghettoisation of Gaza and the building of illegal settlements because Jews do these things. I criticise those things because they are bloody wrong, whoever does things like that, anywhere. No more, no less. I support all the people of Israel, Jews or not, in their aspirations for peace and security. I despise people who call for the destruction of Israel. Now tell me how I'm antisemitic.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 05:27 PM

THere is a huge diference between attacking the Israel government and the Jewish state of Israel. The latter is a hate crime. No ifs. buts or maybes

From the international definition Labour has such problems with:
Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.

To accuse someone of criminality and associate them with Israel tars the nation with the same brush therefore it is clearly antisemitism.

Criminality is perceived by most as being a negative character trait.
Therefore the accusation clearly stands.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 05:34 PM

A state that regards itself as a democracy that consists of a quarter non-Jews is not a "Jewish collectivity." That's no more than an attempt to protect yourself from justified criticism. It's dishonest. I told you what my view of antisemitism is. If anyone can see anything in my last post that is antisemitic, let's be having it.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 05:56 PM

Actually, don't bother. I'll tell you one very noticeable thing about this barrage of attacks on Labour and Corbyn. We rarely, if ever, hear of the precise accusations that are fuelling this spate of sanctimonious nonsense from people whose only goal is to destroy Corbyn. We don't hear much about who said or did what to whom unless it's from idiots on social media who may not even be party members but who pretend to be. We hear about bullying but we don't hear the substance of the accusations and we don't hear about whether the alleged victims might have deliberately engendered situations, as Ruth Smeeth certainly did on the occasion when the Chakrabarti report was published, and let's not forget how John Mann deliberately orchestrated the incident which led to the demonisation of Ken Livingstone, a lifelong supporter of the Jews in the poorer areas of London (I know, because I was there and he was our ally in fighting racism in all its forms). I don't deny that there will be a few antisemites among the ranks of half a million mostly working-class party members. But I want to see substance, not clutching at straws, and I want to see far less reliance on the say-sos of thoroughly discredited and disreputable people like Margaret Hodge (go on, look her up) and her ilk. And it makes me sick when I think of the rampantly racist and Islamophobic Tory party and the almost-half of all the people who vote for them.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 05:57 PM

I suggest we move on.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 06:09 PM

I think I will rely on the IHRA definition of antisemitism rather than read the pretentious posturing of a rabid socialist ex teacher.

I always prefer to give credence to the opinions of real experts, not self-proclaimed ones.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 06:11 PM

I suggest we move on.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 06:40 PM

Are the mods going to allow this diatribe of Jim's to be unchallenged and unsanctioned?

Unfortunately the mods are of the same persuasion, sad as that is, and is one of the prime reasons why this forum has been deserted by so many, especially the Jewish members.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 06:44 PM

Well your stupidity was truly nobbled in another thread by those friendly mods, which is why you're trying it on here. You have to be quick to notice, but I noticed.

I suggest we move on. Perhaps I could explain to you one day the parts of that you don't understand.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 06:59 PM

I hardly ever watch ITV (not snob but advert-averse), but I've just watched a devastating piece of investigative journalism called Exposure: Brexit Online Uncovered. When you consider that a one percent swing in the referendum would have given remain a victory, after watching this I don't think that it would be stretching a point to assert that online and social media skullduggery, illegality, bullying, threats of death and rape and sheer lying successfully swung the result to leave. This stuff reaches millions of people below the relatively respectable radar (a term I use advisedly) of the mainstream media. Watch it if you dare and see if you disagree. We are truly being taken to hell in a handcart driven by the feeble-minded.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 07:10 PM

Perhaps I could explain to you one day the parts of that you don't understand.

I would suggest that it is you, who like the leader of the party you support, are the ones in need of explanation of what you don't understand.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 07:18 PM

Comparisons are invidious, two wrongs don't make a right, etc., and whataboutery is a suspect ploy to say the least, but if you watch that programme you might end up agreeing that "Labour's antisemitism problem," in terms of the alleged bullying we're told about (sans neutral detail, of course) is relatively trivial when set alongside the unscrupulous behaviour exposed in the programme, not to speak of the mass Islamophobia and racism of the Tory party and around half of Tory voters. Of course we have these endemic problems and we should take them seriously and I'm not giving the Labour leadership a bye by any means, but the rampant hypocrisy of the Corbyn-bashers is so bloody blatant.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 08:51 PM

When I tried to formulate a relevant Labour Party/ Jewish issue message, I found myself going into concentric circles. Was I trying to speak to other particular posters in this thread, speak to an overall Jewish issue, speak to Labour Brexit issues? I can come up with single note responses, but inter-relating the complexities of the multi-threaded nature of the issues is beyond me.
So I went as is my wont to Wikipedia (yeah, I wwW'd) and found this article. I found it informative to the extent that I can't tell if it is pretty good or pretty good at confounding those with my lack of familiarity with the home ground.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 09:11 PM

Well, robo, "this article has multiple issues." That's wot wiki sez. You will never believe anything that anyone here says, especially from me, a Labour Party member who has fought racism all his life, who supports the state of Israel (though not its regime) and who abhors antisemitism so much that I would not belong to a party in which I believed it was institutional. As you are a rather right-wing sort of chap, if you lived over here I'd expect you to belong to the opportunistic anti-Corbyn faction, who dredge up anything and everything from his past and present that might promote his demonisation (whilst simultaneously turning a blind eye to all the racist and Islamophobic predilections of the Tory party and it's supporters). As you are of that persuasion, I assume, you would be living in fear of his ever becoming our prime minister. But, as Mr Nice Guy (you know I am), I'd love to think that I've got you all wrong and that you're actually a fair-minded sort of chap who eschews the received wisdoms and stark prejudices that surround us all like predatory aliens...


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:15 AM

The problem with Labour antisemitism, which undoubtedly exists as it does in every other party, is that it is virtually impossible to distinguish from criticism of Israel thanks to the practice of the Israeli regime using The Jewish People as a shield against their human rights abuses, land seizures and (according to some Jews inside and outside of Israel) attempts to ethnically cleanse the Arabs from their homeland
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/almost-half-of-israeli-jews-want-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-wake-up-call-survey-finds-a6919271.html
Antisemitism is the oldest form of prejudice and it is little wonder that some associate what is happening in Israel with the Jewish People - if the Israeli Government can do it, why can't we?
Accusations of Antisemitism have become a weapon a weapon of the right within the Labour Party to remove a leader who looks set fair to return the party to a socialist policy; the threat of BDS has given them a powerful ally in the form of the present Israeli administration, assisted by their voice in the British Parliament, 'The Friends of Israel' - virtually every accusation of Antisemitism can be traced back to this group; these attacks started a few weeks after a meeting if F.o.I. in Jerusalem which was convened shortly after Corbyn announced his support for the Plaestinian People   
Where Israel stands on the question of Antisemitism has been made quite clear by the Israeli Government's co-habitation with EXTREMIST RACIST AND ANTISEMITIC GROUPS - one of these groups has been compared by a Rabbi to THE KLAN
It will be interesting to see whether the current moves to indict Netanyahu with three charges of corruption will lead to a regime change and if so, who will replace the present bunch of thugs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:18 AM

"Unfortunately the mods are of the same persuasion,"
The fact that the Mods are prepared to puut up with this personal abuse from a vicious Troll and a serial abuser makes it obvious that this is not the case
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:24 AM

THe poster has had many hours to disabuse us of the notion that he is antisemitic!
No such attempt has been forthcoming.

This confirms the original accusation, despite shaw's pathetic attempts to play down and sidetrack the issue.

In fact his multiple posts to belittle the accusation rather confirm he feels jimmie's post creates a problem.
Surely it is not a case of much ado about nothing?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:45 AM

I hardly ever watch ITV (not snob but advert-averse), but I've just watched a devastating piece of investigative journalism called Exposure: Brexit Online Uncovered. When you consider that a one percent swing in the referendum would have given remain a victory, (Steve Shaw)

According to most sources the result of the referendum was 51.89% Leave, 48.11% Remain.
A 'one percent swing' would make it 50.89% Leave, 49.11% Remain.
Perhaps our resident ex-teacher needs to work a little harder on his maths.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 04:06 AM

"disabuse us of the notion that he is antisemitic!"
Us - a self exposed racist and a Troll, you mean ?
You may have missed the offer -
I will make s generous donation to any named charity for a shred of evidence that I have ever at any time attacked or denigrated in any way the Jewish People
That offer has been on the table for several years now and so far there has never been a single claim
Care to make one about your anti-Irish racism ?
I thought not
The posting and it's Links are not for you - your respone is what it was expected to be
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM

It is antisemitic to discriminate against Jews.

It is not antisemitic to support the Palestinian cause, or to oppose policies and actions of Israel especially when those policies are themselves discriminatory.

I do not understand why some people find this so hard to accept.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 05:38 AM

"It is antisemitic to discriminate against Jews."
It is also Antisemitic by definition to associate the behaviour of the Israeli regime with The Jewish People - those who accuse critics of Israel of antisemitism do just that and are antisemitic by definition
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 06:22 AM

David, Jim - far too complicated for the brainwashed simpletons who fall for, and regurgitate with monotonous regularity, the propaganda published by a collapsing Conservative & Unionist Party, who are terrified of the current Leader of the Labour Party.

They can't defeat him on policies, so they resort to personal smears and abuse, aided and abetted by those within (and now, for some, without) the Labour Party who are more loyal to the Israeli Regime than they are to their own party. It's the standard tactic of Tories and their supporters.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 07:13 AM

Baccy
I'm getting more than a little tired of antisemites who blame The Jewish People for the crimes committed in their name accusing the rest of us of being antisemitic
I have no intention of entering into a dialogue with either of these people but if the Mods won't remove them I see no harm in exposing them for what they are on occasion - especially as one of them has just caused the mods of being antisemitic
There comes a limit....
Jim


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 07:24 AM

"Accused the mods", of course


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 07:35 AM

Not criticising you for 'exposing' them, Jim. Although, IMHO, they expose themselves every time they put fingers to keyboard - no help necessary from you, me or anyone else.

The point I was making is that they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by what is patently a Tory propaganda campaign of smears and personal abuse, in which the Tories are aided and abetted by FOI, and almost certainly by the vile Netanyahu-led Israeli Regime. As such, they are unlikely to understand or accept the undoubted truth in what you and David said.

BTW, that's not a criticism of Jews, or even of the State of Israel, but it most definitely is a criticism of the political regime currently governing Israel. And, as such, is in no way anti-Semitic (unless weaponised by Corbyn-haters),


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 08:02 AM

"A 'one percent swing' would make it 50.89% Leave, 49.11% Remain.
Perhaps our resident ex-teacher needs to work a little harder on his maths."

*gulp* Quite right, Nigel. I was doing it in my head ballpark-style and used the total population of the UK as one of my numbers for reasons unbeknownst to me. Sorry about that. So a two percent swing then. But I don't really think my point falls. Feel free to add further snide remarks. Scientists relatively weak at maths ended up as biologists, as well you know.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 08:27 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:05 AM
confected and highly hypocritical brouhaha about "Labour antisemitism".
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM
Labour's antisemitism (which does exist and which requires firm action)

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/chris-williamson-warned-of-dark-forces-undermining-corbyn-as-councillor-joked-about-jew-proce
https://order-order.com/2019/03/05/ten-times-labour-snubbed-jewish-labour-movement/

https://labourlist.org/2019/03/hodge-accuses-corbyns-team-of-protecting-labour-antisemites/

https://unherd.com/2019/03/the-lefts-long-history-of-antisemitism/

Looks like the left has a major problem with antisemitism.

Still the labour mp guilty of perverting the course ofjustice has had her appeal turned dowm.
No doubt deselection will follow in a 6% leave constituency.
I wonder how long the dwarf delays doing his duty?

One less seat for labour all being well!


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 08:28 AM

"brainwashed"
Isn't this assuming that they have.... oh, forget it !!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 09:13 AM

"A 'one percent swing' would make it 50.89% Leave, 49.11% Remain.
Perhaps our resident ex-teacher needs to work a little harder on his maths."

*gulp* Quite right, Nigel. I was doing it in my head ballpark-style and used the total population of the UK as one of my numbers for reasons unbeknownst to me. Sorry about that. So a two percent swing then. But I don't really think my point falls.


Yes, your point totally fails as the point you made: but I've just watched a devastating piece of investigative journalism called Exposure: Brexit Online Uncovered. When you consider that a one percent swing in the referendum would have given remain a victory is proven inaccurate.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM

It is rather odd Nigel that you can pick up on errors inadvertently made by posters on here but you can never respond to posts on the Brexit thread that show that is a fiasco that will end in failure.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 09:45 AM

Please read my earlier errant post as follows: "...when you consider that a two percent swing in the referendum would have given remain a victory..." There, that should do it. As you were, Nitnigglepickerlet.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 09:51 AM

WEll done Nigel. Rather than admit a mistake the cabal club together to hurl insults and then wonder why we laugh at them!


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 09:54 AM

I for one Iains have not hurled any insult.

I asked him why he could nit pick on inadvertent errors but would not respond to posts on the Brexit thread.

No insult there at all.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:05 AM

Labour will whip for referendum


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:19 AM

I for one Iains have not hurled any insult.

I suppose calling me an idiot 5 times in recent days is supposed to be taken as a compliment?
raggedtash you are a FOOL!


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:25 AM

I refer to you as an idiot because your whole demeanour suggests that you are an idiot.

However you suggested that I had hurled insults at Nigel. Now unless you can find me hurling insults at Nigel your post is not only incorrect but you are an idiot.

8 and counting.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:42 AM

"Labour will whip for referendum"
Oooooo !!!
Some of the Dolphin Square perves would be queuing up for that one
Jim


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:45 AM

Incidentally- arguing about insulting with a serial insulter is bound to end in tears
Shirley Valentine had more intelligent response from her kitchen wall
Jim


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 11:58 AM

Well bless my soul the squeaker has actually done. De selection of the perverter of justice has been initiated.

Guido first with the news as usual. What a star! and another one(labour) bites the dust.

Antisemites, criminals. What else lies under the stone of Labour I wonder, apart from this


https://order-order.com/2019/03/05/onasanya-recall-petition-process-initiated/

I wonder what is the best antiseptic to use when conversing with leftards?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:30 PM

Notice the long gap between the 'Antisemite' accusation and his return, with no response to the challenge

To no-on in particular
ANTI-SEMITE SUPREMO

A BIT MORE

FRIEND of the BNP

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:29 PM

The conservatives know how to deal with racists. News from Guido of course!

https://order-order.com/2019/03/05/conservatives-hardline-email-14-suspended-members/

Summary justice undoubtedly, the Tories nevertheless showing Labour how to deal swiftly and unequivocally with racism…


Below is how the Corbynistas deal with it:

https://order-order.com/2019/03/04/rachel-riley-suing-labours-new-complaints-adviser/
What a sad shower of dangerous clowns!


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:04 PM

I see that the Tory Islamophobia outrage, with almost half of Tory voters adjudged to be racist in that regard, has now broken out into the airways. Baroness Warsi (one of a handful of Tories, along with Justine Greening, Anna Soubry and Sarah Wollaston who get you asking the question, why are you a Tory at all?) has spoken out. Just watch the vicious Tory hawks start to encircle her...


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:04 PM

Perhaps the Tories have not been quite as thorough or swift as you suggest.
'A spokesperson for the Muslim Council of Britain said the posts showed "the scale of Islamophobia at all levels of the party is astonishing". The council repeated its call for an independent inquiry into anti-Muslim abuse within the party.
...
Warsi, who has campaigned on the issue, said the party had "a deep-rooted problem of anti-Muslim comments, Islamophobic comments, racist comments".


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:07 PM

Great minds, DMcG, great minds... :-)


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:13 PM

Why has everyone started conversing with the troll again?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 04:10 PM

Oh Dear, it never rains but it pours!

More reliable news from everyone's favourite hack the maestro Guido.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f645c074-3f3c-11e9-889c-a7e27b96460c
and still the remainiacs try to deny and sidetrack the issue.
Jolly good job that Guido is on the ball. with his clear incisive reporting.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 07:22 PM

Baroness Warsi was on Newsnight tonight. She spoke plainly about the issues in the Tory party regarding racism, Islamophobia in particular and how Theresa May refuses to engage with the issue. When you look back at the survey I mentioned, which indicated that almost half of all Tory voters harbour frank Islamophobic views, then listen to Sayeeda Warsi, it makes you see the rampant hypocrisy of the anti-Corbyn zealots. You didn't have to look too far, either, as Kirsty also interviewed the well past-it Blairite troglodyte Lord Levy. The most useful contribution he could ever make to society would be to fall asleep on the Lords benches making occasional farting and snoring noises.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:33 PM

Who is this Guido - you keep going on about?
Why are you paying attention to him/her.

A girl guido, or a Boy Scouto?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:39 AM

convicted He's an extremist right-wing criminal blogger who has apparently managed to plant one of his employees on this forum (no prizes...)
Probably a hermaphrodite - certainly into dressing-up and 'let's-pretend' games - someone you guard your children against
Jim


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:58 AM

Big AL an answer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Staines

Detested by all the lefties. However in 2005, Staines's blog was voted the best in the Political Commentary category of The Backbencher Political Weblog Awards, run by The Guardian.

He is of interest because he often places political gems in the public domain before mainstream media. He provides a fairly comprehensive coverage of UK things political, especially items the major parties would prefer to keep hidden or subdued.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:38 AM

A rare type of advice coming from me, Al, but the best thing to do about that particular degenerate and disreputable far-right blogger is to keep yourself ignorant. One little peek at his arrant nonsense would convince anyone of sound mind that it's good advice.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:21 AM

Big Al, when you read Iains' link, be sure not to miss the section headed "Criminal Convictions".


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:15 AM

The normal diversionary tactics of the usual crowd. Attack the messenger, not the message.
Here is an up to the minute release:

https://order-order.com/2019/03/06/momentum-fined-electoral-commission-multiple-breaches-electoral-law/

and to prove it has substance:

https://news.sky.com/story/momentum-fined-for-multiple-breaches-of-electoral-law-11656570

A rare type of advice coming from me, Al, but the best thing to do about that particular degenerate and disreputable far-right blogger is to keep yourself ignorant. One little peek at his arrant nonsense would convince anyone of sound mind that it's good advice.

Degenerate? Despicable? but sadly for the Shaws of this world, undoubtedly accurate!


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:23 AM

convicted He's an extremist right-wing criminal blogger who has apparently managed to plant one of his employees on this forum (no prizes...)
Probably a hermaphrodite - certainly into dressing-up and 'let's-pretend' games - someone you guard your children against

What is little jimmy hinting at here I wonder. Too much of a coward to say it outright.

Be very careful jimmy. you are verging on libel.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM

"verging on libel."
Said the feller who regularly accuses his opponents of being mental deficiants
Doncha just love it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM

I think I'll pass on that one Iains. I find politics very confusing these days anyway.

Incidentally , is that your name - I'd not seen it with an 'S' on the end. Or is that making a point of some kind?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:58 AM

"I'd not seen it with an 'S' on the end. Or is that making a point of some kind?"
Stands for shitbag
Jim


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 10:12 AM

You never get repartee like that in Oscar Wilde....


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:08 PM

But Oscar Wilde was educated at Dublin University and Magdalen College Oxford. He was probably as intelligent as Enoch Powell.(who became a professor of ancient Greek at the age of 25)


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:40 PM

I'm having a flashback to the Simpsons episode where Homer recovers from his hangover with a memory of being the wit of the party. His memories envisage him at the Algonquin Room roundtable having spawned universal laughter with a plastic icecube with a bug in it.

Now there's your repar-damn-tay!


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 07:41 PM

GUIDO's DAY JOB


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:03 PM

Don't fink so! The laddie is full time employed itemising labour's nonsense:
Like this gem concerning the abbacus:
At least voters know exactly who belongs to Labour's leftwing Campaign Group, even if they risk being airbrushed from public appearances during an election campaign. Diane Abbott may be a model of loyalty to the party leadership during the next month, but many of her electors might like to be reminded that she once co-authored a paper that suggested: "We are not interested in reforming ... the police, armed services, judiciary and monarchy. We are about dismantling them and replacing them with our own machinery of class rule."
or
Back in 2014, Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell both voted against changing the law so anyone caught carrying a knife for a second time would face a custodial sentence. Corbyn said he would vote against the measure because it “looks tough”.
or
Just last month, Corbyn’s Labour Party voted against several measures that would have helped to combat the rising knife crime crisis. In the Lords, Labour voted against the introduction of Knife Crime Prevention Orders, which are designed to place curbs on those who routinely carry knives, and prevent gang escalation. In the Commons, they voted against an extra £970 million being made available to the police. Not a single Labour MP voted in favour…

The comments section is awash with priceless quotes!
suchas
It could be worse - she could be Shadow Chancellor.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:18 AM

Corbyn said he would vote against the measure because it “looks tough”.

An absolute classic from Guido to demonstrate why he is such an unreliable source. You can find the speech in Hansard and Corbyn was saying he wanted actions that were effective, not just ones that looked tough but where there was no evidence they worked. Is that the sense of the speech you get from the Guido spin?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM

Thats actually typical for a right wing blogger, use Corbyn's words, but not all of them and not necessarily in the right order. But what can you expect from a serial drink driver and bankrupt?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:55 AM

Hansard

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2014-06-17/debates/14061751000001/CriminalJusticeAndCourtsBill?highlight=%22looks%20tough%

Make up your own mind.


You will be trying to tell me next that the guardian reports all news factually with zero spin. Is any media free of a degree of bias? of course not!


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:09 AM

I don't know how often I have recommended people go back to the source material where they can - Hansard in this case - and make up their own mind, rather than rely on Guido or the Guardian.

I assume you have done so, then, and you have decided that the reason Corbyn voted against it was because it looked tough (which I interpret as making the government look tough), and nothing to do with whether it was effective or not?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:19 AM

DMcG I suspect Corbyn just saw it as an opening to knock the government.
He does not exactly hold any records for being consistent. He would even pose a challenge for the Met office to keep up, and they are past masters at dealing with changeability.
Whatever his motivation was back then we can be sure it has swung back and forth repeatedly ever since.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:22 AM

I think the Hansard underlines your point perfectly David, masked fetishistic criminal entry Staines totally distorted Labour's position by leaving out what actually was said - that the Government position was a penny-pinching measure to give the appearance that something ws being done when they were actually playing to the gallery   
The fact that that it is now five years since this affair was discussed and the same Tory Government has now been forced to take emergency measures to combat steadily rising knife crime is a spot-on indication that the bill was little more than a sop in he first place
Wonder how many deaths have occurred since then and how many more there would have been if the Tories hadn't needed something to show that they weren't the incompetent clowns Brexit has exposed them as being ?
These people are beyond belief
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:26 AM

Good try, Iains, but that is not addressing whether that specific Guido claim is reliable.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:32 AM

As reliable as any media.

A contemporary folksong to explain it all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ga_M5Zdn4


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:36 AM

But no more than, presumably. Well, that make a nice change from your usual fount-of-all-wisdom, hail-the-all-knowing stance with Guido.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:42 AM

Let's face it - knife crime would still not be the issue it has become with the government if a leading policewoman hadn't embarrassed them by pointing out the damage that police cuts have done to Britain's security - from street criminality to terrorist attacks
TESSIE THE MAYFLIE'S THEME SONG
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:42 AM

Let's face it - knife crime would still not be the issue it has become with the government if a leading policewoman hadn't embarrassed them by pointing out the damage that police cuts have done to Britain's security - from street criminality to terrorist attacks
TESSIE THE MAYFLIE'S THEME SONG
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:37 AM

KNIFE CRIME - THE BREXIT CONNECTION
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:42 AM

Let's face it - knife crime would still not be the issue it has become with the government if a leading policewoman hadn't embarrassed them by pointing out the damage that police cuts have done to Britain's security - from street criminality to terrorist attacks


From Labours watch:7:00AM GMT 24 Feb 2009
Thousands of police officers are to lose their jobs, despite the prospect of increased crime levels during the recession.

Chris Grayling, the Shadow Home Secretary, said: "This has to be the final nail in the coffin of Tony Blair's promise that Labour would be tough on crime. We already have many violent crimes rocketing and crimes like burglaries on the rise again. Because Gordon Brown has wrecked public finances we are going to have fewer police on our streets."


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM

More problems for st Jeremy of the allotment:
Equalities and Human Rights Commission launches probe on claims Labour is 'institutionally antisemitic'

Better late than never doncha think?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:59 AM

Actually it was Thatcher who wrecked public infrastructure, that is the source of all of the problems. By wasting money on tax cuts and not investing in the future of the country.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:29 AM

Followed by greedy, reckless bankers who ran their organisations into financial ruin, which the then Labour government was obliged to bail out to the tune of, IIRC, £800 billion.

The Tory liars are still trying to blame the last Labour government, carefully ignoring the destruction wrought by their very own pin-up girl, The Beast of Grantham, and their profligate buddies in the financial sector.

Disgraceful dishonesty.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM

wouldn't it be great if we stopped cutting and pasting contentious things and just passed on our own thoughts without outrage at each other.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:08 PM

I heartily ageee with that, Al. I've been castigated here for being bloody useless at doing links but I care not a jot. I'm on here to bloody well tell y'all wot I think. Links and all that can be useful in triggering debate about the point you're trying to make. But links without a statement of your point are useless. We get a lot of that here and it's a bit depressing.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:42 PM

"wouldn't it be great if we stopped cutting and pasting contentious things and just passed on our own thoughts without outrage at each other."

Errrmm...I did, in my last post.

The problem here is that there are a few Right-Wing Extremist Trolls whose entire purpose is to cause outrage. Some of us are ignoring them, but others don't have that self-Control, and insist on feeding the Trolls.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 02:51 AM

I post a lot of links with little or no comment, though most of the time the few words I add do give my opinion. I don't think that is entirely a waste of time, because having some record of what happened has a value in its own right.

I think my opinion on how things are going is fairly well understood by everyone here so I don't see I need to restate it very often. If some issue is 'more of the same' I won't bother to comment.

The Primark case is a bit different, though. That is the first I am aware of where the choice of "move to the EU or lose your job" has been quite so starkly presented.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 03:24 AM

Links provide a way of determining whether statements made are fact, fiction, or whimsy. Generally multiple sources can be found on the internet to enable independent verification. Posting links is merely a helpful way of pointing people in the right direction and giving a rapid
determination of where the truth may likely lie.
   Any statement made that is the least bit contentious should be given supporting links. If a person cannot be bothered to offer support for their statements/conclusions, then why should we bother reading them?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:06 AM

When liks are usually from one source from a blogger as they are with one poster, you realise that they don't contain information, just propaganda
When the same poster passes off anything he doesn't agree with as 'fake news' or 'leftie shit' you realise that such an attitude is best ignored - yo may as well go talk to Shirley valentine's Wall
Those who accuse people of offering no support to their claims yet behave in the way I've described offer nothing to any intelligent discussion - "Trolling" is a pretty faitr description of such behaviour (stand by for a display of what I mean0
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:55 AM

Just because you don't see blue bits in my posts doesn't mean I'm opposed to links. It's just that I can't work out how to get something from a newspaper to turn blue. I might refer to a headline then quote a section from the article to reinforce a point. But life is short, and I won't open unsupported links. And I won't open links to the Staines blog. Been there, done it, thrown away the shit-stained t-shirt. It can tell me nothing I can't find better expressed elsewhere and I can't stand the Daily-Mail-with-testicles perspective. Persistent resort by an individual to that website tells me nothing useful about politics but it tells me a lot about the person pretending to be a serious contributor here who appears to waste his life and pollute his brain reading it.

Half of me feels that all the gathering clouds around brexit - the gloomy predictions about the economy, the threats from the car industry, Primark, visas, driving permits, expensive euros, rekindling of conflict on the Irish border, motorways turning into lorry parks, essential workers from the EU leaving the country, add your own snippets of doom - would lead to a remain vote in another referendum. But the other half of me suspects that a new referendum leave campaign would at least as dishonest as the last one, with resort to populist lies about the denial of democracy and the will of the people and blaming the bullying EU and leftie remoaners for not giving us everything we want, etc., and would be just as effective as the last one. Referendums totally suck and have nothing to do with democracy, but there may be no other way out of this.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:15 AM

A result of a Poll in Northern Ireland has found that 67% of teh population are dissatified with the UK's behavior, 67% are opposed to te DUPs handling of Brexit and 67% wish to remain in Europe
So the Britis Government is now relying on a party that does not have the support of the Northern Irish people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:40 AM

Very true.

The thing is about Ireland. is their dislike of each other stronger than their desire to stay in Europe? You can't always get exactly what you want. Sometimes you have to choose.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:51 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 02:51 AM
The Primark case is a bit different, though. That is the first I am aware of where the choice of "move to the EU or lose your job" has been quite so starkly presented.


If this relates to the link by Raggytash in the Brexit discussion, what he actually said was: Today Primark has informed 200 of it's staff they must move to Dublin or face redundancy.
"face redundancy" is not quite as stark as your comment "lose your job".
In turn, the comment Today Primark has informed 200 of it's staff they must move to Dublin or face redundancy. is more stark than what the Guardian actually said: Reading-based staff have been offered the chance to relocate to Ireland in a reorganisation intended to help the company’s push for international expansion, but they have also been told they may face redundancy as a “last resort” if they do not. although the headline to the story is more in line with Raggytash's comment.

It's like Chinese whispers. The further you are from the original message, the more that message changes.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:13 AM

Yes, the Primark statement did refer to the post on the Brexit thread: the post really considers both threads and I was undecided which to post to.

And indeed being told you are at risk of losing your job, which is what facing redundancy means, is not as bad as actually losing it. But in my opinion we will soon find out they were the same. I could of course be wrong.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:28 AM

If my employer offered me the chance to relocate to Ireland I would take it in a flash. Sadly my Irish ancestry is two generations too far back to qualify for citizenship, but taken at face value the Primark offer would give their staff a fabulous opportunity to take the job, and work towards residency and eventually citizenship.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:30 AM

Face redundancy or lose your job means the same to most people Nigel. The only difference being (again for most people) is that with redundancy you may get a few bob.

Either way you have no job.

Sorry you are nit-picking once again.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM

David, I know the chance to live in Ireland may be a tempter, however living in Dublin is VERY expensive, particularly housing costs. Now I don't know what level of recompense these workers may being receiving but it would have to be fairly substantial to warrant living in Dublin.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:30 AM
Face redundancy or lose your job means the same to most people Nigel. The only difference being (again for most people) is that with redundancy you may get a few bob.

'Face redundancy' may, possibly, be described as 'lose your job'. But I believe that (lose your job) would be better as a translation of 'suffer redundancy'.
However, neither matches the quote I took from the Guardian article which you linked: but they have also been told they may face redundancy as a "last resort"

So rather than nit-picking, I am pointing out that you are falsely reporting on what you have read.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:51 AM

Raggy, they are in Reading at the moment and thats not cheap.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:00 AM

Either way you're out of work Nigel.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:14 AM

Either way you're out of work Nigel.

You must just understand English differently. If, to you, "you may face redundancy as a last resort" means the same as "you're out of work.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:20 AM

For ***** sake Nigel, if someone is made redundant they will be out of work.

In 63 years I have never heard anyone say any different, apart from yourself that is.

The only thing you are trying to do is NOT talk about Brexit as I suspect you already realise is going to be a monumental cock-up with dire repercussions for the UK.

You cannot face that fact and seek to divert attention away from it. This I suspect is the reason you NEVER respond to the issues raised but nit-pick on trivia instead.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM

Some people seem to trust management-speak more than others.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:27 AM

Yes, If someone is made redundant they are out of work. Well stated, and accurate.
If someone may be faced with redundancy, they are currently in work, with two possibilities, either their employment will continue, or they will be made redundant. You seem to equate "may be faced with redundancy" as meaning "will lose their job".
It is not only the Brexit team which relies on lies.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:34 AM

Well three times I have been told I was face redundancy and guess what ............... three times I was made redundant.

However this is just your little side show. Anything to say about any of the car industry or the insurance, banking and finance industries moving thousands of jobs (and revenue) away from the UK?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:58 AM

Don't be silly, Raggy. Talk about the industry, capital and jobs moving from the UK is just project fear. It will never happen and all will be fine when the unicorns arrive.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:30 AM

It seems Labour want to drop the amendment in favour of a second referendum from Tuesday's vote, but bring it into the promised ones or Wednesday or Thursday.

All paths are difficult, but given that those votes are not on the weekly agenda and Teresa May has form for pulling votes, it seems particularly risky to me.


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