BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:08 AM

Stupid, stupid, stupid English.
Idiot!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:51 AM

"Both best ignored by anyone with half a working brain cell."
As distinct from a fetic=shist criminal right wing career blogger, you mean
Whoever Oliver is, his message is right in line with the consequences being outlinned all all the other articles being put out which you pair of anti-Irish flag-waggers have totally ignored
Edwina Curry has just let the sparrowhawk out of the bag by more or less making it clear that the only policy Brexiteers have is to leave Europe, whatever the consequences - the term she used is Britain has always managed to "muddle through all difficulties"
Current British policy in a nutshell
Can't ling this so I'll put it up in full - much more impressive anyway
Jim Carroll

The English are blindly driving Northern Ireland to conflict – the fear is that they are too stupid to care
A return to violence is not a worst-case scenario but an inevitability if a hard border returns, as it will if there is a full Brexit
Patrick Cockburn
Friday 1 March 2019 15:15

I was sitting in a cafe on the Falls Road in heavily nationalist West Belfast when a local radio reporter came in looking for residents to interview about the effect of Brexit on Northern Ireland. She said that the impact was already massive, adding: “Stupid, stupid English for getting us into this pickle. We were doing nicely and then they surpassed themselves [in stupidity].”

It does not take long talking to people in Northern Ireland to understand that almost everything said by politicians and commentators in London about the “backstop” is based on a dangerous degree of ignorance and wishful thinking about the real political situation on the ground here. Given how central this issue is to the future of the UK, it is extraordinary how it is debated with only minimal knowledge of the real forces involved.

The most important of these risks can be swiftly spelled out. Focus is often placed on the sheer difficulty of policing the 310-mile border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland because there are at least 300 major and minor crossing points. But the real problem is not geographic or military but political and demographic because almost all the border runs through country where Catholics greatly outnumber Protestants. The Catholics will not accept, and are in a position to prevent, a hard border unless it is defended permanently by several thousand British troops in fortified positions.

The threat to peace is often seen as coming from dissident Republicans, a small and fragmented band with little support, who might shoot a policeman or a customs’ official. But this is not the greatest danger, or at least not yet, because it is much more likely that spontaneous but sustained protests would prevent any attempt to recreate an international frontier between Northern Ireland and the Republic that wasn’t backed by overwhelming armed force.

It is unrealistic to the point of absurdity to imagine that technical means on the border could substitute for customs personnel because cameras and other devices would be immediately destroyed by local people. A new border would have to be manned by customs officials, but these would not go there unless they were protected by police and the police could not operate without British Army protection. Protesters would be killed or injured and we would spiral back into violence.

We are not looking at a worst-case scenario but an inevitability if a hard border returns as it will, if there is a full Brexit. The EU could never agree to a deal – and would be signing its own death warrant if it did – in which the customs union and the single market have a large unguarded hole in their tariff and regulatory walls.

An essential point to grasp is that the British government does not physically control the territory, mostly populated by nationalists, through which the border runs. It could only reassert that control by force which would mean a return to the situation during the Troubles, between 1968 and 1998, when many of the 270 public roads crossing the border were blocked by obstacles or cratered with explosives by the British Army. Even then British soldiers could only move through places like South Armagh using helicopters.

The focus for the security forces in Northern Ireland is on dissident Republican groups that never accepted the Good Friday Agreement. These have failed to gain traction inside the Roman Catholic/nationalist community which has no desire to go back to war and give up the very real advantages that it has drawn from the long peace.

But that peace could slip away without anybody wanting it to go because Brexit, as conceived by the European Research Group and as delineated by Theresa May’s red lines, is a torpedo aimed directly at the heart of the Good Friday Agreement. This meant that those who saw themselves as Irish (essentially the Catholics) and those who saw themselves as British (the Protestants) could live peacefully in the same place. Moreover, the agreement established and institutionalised a complicated balance of power between the two communities in which the Irish government and the EU played a central role.

Yet ever since the general election of 2017, when May became dependent on the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), it is the DUP – the party of Ian Paisley – that has been treated by politicians and media in Britain as if they were the sole representatives of the 1.9 million people living in Northern Ireland. Its MPs are seldom asked by interviewers to justify their support for the UK leaving the EU when Northern Ireland voted for Remain in the referendum by 56 per cent to 44 per cent.

In ignoring the nationalist community in Northern Ireland, the British government is committing the same costly mistake it committed in the 50 years before 1968 which led to the fiercest guerrilla conflict in western Europe since the Second World War. The nationalist community today has a lot more to lose than it did half a century ago. It is no longer subject to sectarian discrimination in the way it used to be, as well as being highly educated and economically dynamic, but this does not mean that it can be taken for granted.

It may also be that the majority of the Northern Ireland population in two years’ time, when the Brexit transition period might be coming to an end, will no longer be Protestant and unionist but Catholic and nationalist. In the last census in 2011 Protestants were 48 per cent of the population and Catholics 45 per cent. The Protestants are not only a declining proportion of the population, but an increasingly ageing one, figures from 2016 showing that Catholics are 44 per cent of the working population and Protestants 40 per cent. Significantly, Catholics make up 51 per cent of school children in Northern Ireland and Protestants only 37 per cent.

The Protestants are a community on the retreat, but many have argued that this does not make much political difference because it is a mistake to imagine that all Catholics wanted a united Ireland. Many felt that they were better off where they were with a free NHS and an annual UK subsidy of £11bn.

But Brexit has changed this calculation. With Ireland and the UK members of the EU, religious and national loyalties were blurred. Many Protestants, particularly middle class ones, voted Remain in the referendum, but the vote was still essentially along sectarian lines. “You would not find many nationalists post-Brexit who would not vote for a united Ireland in a new border poll whatever they thought before,” said one commentator, though the likelihood is that if there were to be such a poll there would still be a slim majority favouring the union with Great Britain.

If May’s deal with the EU is finally agreed by the House of Commons then the issue of a hard border will be postponed. Any return to it would put Northern Ireland back on the road to crisis and violence. Stupid, stupid, stupid English.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:23 AM

John William Oliver (born 23 April 1977)[3] is an English comedian, writer, producer, political commentator, actor, and television host. Oliver started his career as a stand-up comedian, both in the United Kingdom and United States.

A pundit on a par with crispy boy Linekar who is qualified as a footballer, BBC luvvie and airhead.

Both best ignored by anyone with half a working brain cell.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:13 AM

Well, if John Oliver says so, it must be true! (whoever he is)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 01:39 PM

I was under the impression that this was understood in Parliament and what was meant by having a Brexit backstop. John Oliver in his Brexit recap was quite definite about the consequences of a hard border being installed.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:38 PM

Hot off the presses
An Irish in Brtain view (if they are allowed to have one
VIOLENCE AND IRISH UNITY INEVITABLE AFTER BRITAIN CRASHES OUT
Wednesday 20 March 2019
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM

And quite what that is to do with the Irish, is beyond me it is, it is!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:34 PM

Don't forget that one can top up NI contributions made over many years to increase State Pension entitlement, but out of already taxed income of course. The subsequent increase in pension is taxed again!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM

"The most widely stated reason for avoiding a hard border is to maintain the ‘peace process’ in Northern Ireland. Many, including Tony Blair and John Major, imply that what is at stake is ‘peace’ itself, and hence a return of the violence of the 1968-1998 ‘Troubles’. This is incorrect. No one at senior level in Northern Ireland has suggested that largescale violence will resume"
Briefings for Brexit 10/02/2018

No deal 2019
This is one of the most serious problems posed by Brexit.
Officially and even unofficially, Irish officials have insisted the Government is not preparing in any way for the return of a hard border and the potential security risks this will bring.
However, if a hard border is reintroduced, there are genuine fears it will lead to a rise in potential violence in Northern Ireland.
And while British police said last week they will send officers to the north to help address any outbreaks of violence if this is needed, such a move would inevitably throw yet more petrol onto the flames.

Full consequences here
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/specialreports/brexit-is-more-than-just-empty-jargon-it-will-change-your-everyday-life-897280.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:00 PM

A persistent claim of the Irish Government, fully backed by the EU, is that an invisible border is necessary to protect the Good Friday Agreement. Not only does the Good Friday Agreement not mention the border but it also makes little reference to the EU other than to note its existence.

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/brexit-and-the-irish-border/

The Irish foreign minister Simon Coveney recently made the unhelpful comment that he hoped to see Ireland united in his “political lifetime” – one would assume he meant in the next twenty or so years. It would be helpful, to say the least, if Irish politicians would respect that part of the GFA which states that is the wish of the people of NI to remain within the UK. Continued references to Irish Unity are a form of political harassment which could at some stage inflame loyalist opinion.

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/brexit-and-the-irish-border/

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:07 AM

KarenH:

As to your point about American involvement in Irish Republican affairs, we certainly were and are. Check out Stan Rogers' song "House of Orange". Americans have been involved in the affairs of EVERY country we came from.

Spanish Americans altered the economy of Europe with all the gold they 'inherited' from the locals. They also brought pellagra to Italian peasants by trying to feed them on a monoculture of American corn (maize). English colonists came as a refuge from Catholic England then during the Puritan Revolutioin fed a backflow of Protestants to England. Irish Americans worked in various ways for Ireland. Canadians, too. If you haven't heard Stan Rogers' song "House of Orange" check it out for a personal response to the issue. Chinese Americans supported Sun-yat-Sen. Americans from Mexico and points South have supported their fellows across borders. Jewish Americans sent money and bodies to the Palestinians in the 1930s and 40s when Palestinians were invariably Jews (and with Irish American support, because they were both subverting English governing bodies).

Americans all come from somewhere and have usually weighed in on the issues and environments from which they came.

With no knowledge whatsoever I'm going to assert that the very first Americans sent back emissaries across the Bering Strait to tell those mammoth hunting bastards how stupid they were for some reason. And 'help' them improve or amend their hunting and fighting prowess.


(I know I mentioned Stan Rogers' twice. He's THAT good!)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:35 AM

Still more abuse and no answers from the two
THe State pesnsion does not have to be "earned" it is paryed fro by the contributions of workers
No clocking in or pay packet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:17 AM

The state pension you receive is dependent on your NI contributions over many years. I don't care what you want to call it. That's plainly how it is. Using it as a stick to beat your adversaries with is completely out of order.

And which "mod friend" would that be, bobad? Go on, mate, be bold. Name a name!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:04 AM

I'd remind you that a state pension has to be earned.

INTERESTING that it is classed as a benefit now.

https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/121267

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:49 AM

Careful Karen or he'll be speaking to his mod friend about you next, that's the usual procedure with those who disagree with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:41 AM

"I don't know why you have recently turned so aggressive"

It must have rubbed off from Jim. I don't think I have ever quite descended to his level.

Glumly resigns herself to more Irish terrorist attacks founded on the odd belief that this is an apt response to a famine that happened a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:24 AM

And I don't know why you have recently turned so aggressive. Let's move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:06 AM

Steve

I have no idea why you think it is a good idea to inform me of stuff I know already. But if it makes you happy, please go ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:55 AM

I'd remind you that a state pension has to be earned. You do that by going to work and paying NI contributions over many years. Unless you've done that, you won't get enough pension to sustain you in a cardboard box under Waterloo Bridge. As long as you've paid up, the pension is yours as of right, irrespective of your political views or your nationalistic allegiances, according to the rules that apply to everyone equally from James Dyson right down to Tommy Robinson, as with entitlement to health care as set via reciprocal agreements with the EU. Actually, the UK state pension is one of the worst in the western world, an interesting though perhaps irrelevant fact in the present context.

It behoves you to desist from throwing barbs along these lines at people who are living within agreed rules and who are abiding by the law, simply because you don't like their political stance. That's childish, Karen, and I think you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM

Iain: I was trying not to be personal as far as possible, but to show that Jim himself has derived benefits from being born in and working in the UK. I realise Jim won't see it this way, but I cannot go along with the tone of your last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 06:11 AM

Karen it is very clear he is an embittered old man. He is always bleating about how hard done by his commie father was and this subjection to perpetual whining and brainwashing by his pater accounts for his hatred of all things british(apart from his pension of course!) He is really a sad little man that is best ignored because the majority of his posts are coloured by his tunnel vision of a totally perverted reality. And of course each time this is mentioned a stream of abuse results. Just watch below!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM

Jim sitting there on his UK pension, earned via training he got in the UK, presumably benefitting from UK National Health agreements with the EU for his health care, and wishing death and destruction on others on the basis of what are plainly nationalist anti-UK and anti 'prod' views.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:59 AM

And I came into this by asserting that if it all kicks off again on the island of Ireland after Brexit then those Irish people who engage in violence have made a personal choice and one for which they cannot 'blame' the potato famine or imperialism. I don't like violence, Jim would, it appears, be cheering it on.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:48 AM

Here's a nice Washington Post article which describes, among other things, US pro Irish-republican ignorance of the politics of Sinn Fein.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1987/03/22/irish-troubles-american-money/593e3941-826e-4719-bc79-8eb528f8ac70/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.1287634d022e

I won't bother addressing Jim's recent denials within this thread that he did say what he said what he plainly said earlier in this thread because I think this is just a tactic he uses rather than an honest statement. It is all of a piece with his denials that he ever insults people, which are so blatant that they often occur in the same post as a lot of insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:43 AM

Robomatic: your summary of Jim's approach is good but omits his tendency to sling insults about aggressively when he is pressed to be less simplistic and faced with sensible objections. While we are rounding out history, let's not forget that a lot of violent terrorism on the island of Ireland was funded by 'yanks'. Given their way over the years, the Irish would arguably now be subject to some Catholic European power, with the Spanish and the French being the two contenders or to the US "empire".

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:00 AM

they did away with 'special schools in Britain a long time ago.

A crying shame you might have had some benefit from remedial schooling.
Your posts may then have actually had some vestigial contact with reality. Instead you post nonsense and get upset when treated like a fool!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:00 AM

GOOD SUMMING UP OF "LITTLE ENGLAND" HERE
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 03:55 AM

Sorry Robo
You appear not to understand the situation Ireland is in at present - not past battles, but a chance that the 1970s will kick off all over again if the border becomes visible
It's not just a case of opening old wounds but the hardship that is likely to cause on both sides of the border, and the effect that is likely to have on the Good Friday Agreement
Irish people tend to get on - pretty well with everybody, but certainly with each other
Britain seems set fair to bung a viciously sectarian party another lump of the taxpayers money in order to make the unacceptable possible and is blaming Ireland for the mess they have got themselves in, which isn't going to do too well for the natural friendship between ordinary people here or in Britain - scapegoatism and divide and rule ate two of the devices that have let to us being led by morons for far too long
When a couple of flag-waggers start dragging up events that go back as far as the Normans to revive ancient conflicts, I feel the need to respond - we've just seen fifty good reasons why such national and cultural hatred need to be nipped in the bud - they've just started to bury the results   
If I repeat myself (guilty on that one) I do so because I believe that's what you do with children who refuse to learn
Another repetition
I'm British born, my parents were British born - we are a English born family, yet, because I have chosen to live in Ireland over the last twenty years one of these morons refers to me as a "bogtrotter" while the other refers tot me as (presumably an Irish) "Nationalist"
I don't know how to deal with such people other than to repeat things they seem unable to grasp - they did away with 'special schools in Britain a long time ago
Anyway, when people get as nasty as they do, it gives a sort of perverted pleasure to allow them to humiliate themselves
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 11:47 PM

Jim:

At least you are frank in your emotional response. I never doubted that you are in earnest, but you are like that cat Mark Twain refers to, that jumped onto a hot stove and got burned. It never jumped onto a hot stove again. Nor a cold one.

As for "little Englanders" I believe someone maybe earlier in this thread went into detail about the major shift in meaning of this term from the past century to the present. There is a somewhat clever show called, and I'm only going by memory here, "An Idiot Abroad". The guy behind the show is Ricky Gervais, who gets entirely too much pleasure out of his buddy's discomfort. His buddy is the 'Little Englander'. How all this applies to the current version of English Irish relations is a bit beyond me. I used to live in the Boston (USA) area, which has a considerable Irish ambience and considerable English history, although we did not normally get contentious along those lines, as being America, we have many ethnic fault lines to enjoy. But I recall some really good public broadcasting shows on Irish history which went into detail about the many incidents on the rocky road to Irish Independence. There were several secret societies, then there were some open parties, along the way there were Protestants such as Charles Stewart Parnell who did their best, in his case being foiled by a scandal, and of course Michael Collins, who was shot by his fellow Irish Catholics.


As for the English, if you're making the point that they were bloody colonizers, hey, we (Yanks) were started as colonies. We had formal wars with the English more than once. Twice, I think. They are still, after all is said and done, Mom. Your mileage may vary. Sláinte chugat.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 05:40 PM

A reasoned response

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 03:35 PM

NINE OUT OF TEN
BRITAIN's HISTORTY OF PEACE AND FRIENDSHIP WITH ITS FELLOW MEN
Worth noting that every Irish conflict since the 12th century has been in relation to Ireland gaining independence over Britain, while virtually all British conflicts have been about gain and dominance of others

Sorry lads, I had no intention of engaging in discussion with with the gruesome twosome, but, when they start moving in packs it really is time to call in pest control

Robo
I've really had a bellyful of Little Englanders trying to revisit their Glorious Imperial past at the expense of their former victims
My family suffered British rule more or less in silence - I'm ***** if I'm going to if they decide to take to the streets again
Sorry
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 03:14 PM

Jim:

It's not that you're totally wrong about your statements and logic, it's that you seize upon your chosen subset of beliefs and then repeat yourself ad infinitum and show no adaptibility to the complexities of the real history. Irish/ British history is long and involved, and Irish Republicanism is likewise. Likewise the influence/dominance of the Irish Catholic church for both good and ill. You're like that as well in Jewish/ Israeli issues as you've also shown in this venue. And any arguments that pass outside of your chosen context you simply ignore. And then there's this weird tolerance of Stalinism that lies beneath the surface and informs your thoughts even when you do not bring that out explicitly. And when folks get tired of your restatements of your prejudices you declare victory.

So, hey, congrats!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 02:20 PM

Empire Loyalists ???????

Oh Dear! Too much star trek. The laddie is stuck in a time warp.

the people got on before the division of Ireland ???????

Arrant nonsense! Wot's all this below? A list of tea parties?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 01:07 PM

Karen - borrowing from your own book of rules - it really is time you Empire Loyalists came to terms with the fact that Britannia no longer rules the waves and the world really doesn't need its guidance any more
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 12:47 PM

"Jim's depressingly nationalistic "
I fear nationalism nearly as much as I fear fascism
Where have I ever discussed where people come from and who they are ?
I have said over and over again that it is thepolitics that were installed into the six counties - the people got on before the division of Ireland and they continue to do so
Your hit and run postings coupled with your refusal to respond is getting very boring Karen - it's downright cowardly now
Please stop this -
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 09:38 AM

It is indeed ironic that the Scots were originally from Dal Riata, so on the basis of Jim's depressingly nationalistic ideas and arguments about who people 'really are' they would count as Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

The Iriny) of all of this of course is that a large number of those in the Northern Counties (anround a third are Ulster Soots - from a country equally historically dominate(sp) and persecuted by the British establishment

Of course Ireland was subjugated in 1169 whereas Scotland was largely independent until the act of union of 1707 and the Scottish monarchy actually ruled England for a while until the end of the reign of Queen Anne.

It is interesting that with the victory of William (a staunch Protestant) at the battle of the Boyne, the Pope of the day supported the Protestant King William of Orange against the Catholic King James II.
It is said that a Mass of deliverance was celebrated in Rome after King William's victory and bells were ordered to be rung and the loca ldrubbing is what is remembered not the major issue.

The battle was fought over continental issues not parochial.although they superficially took precedence.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 06:25 AM

The Iriny of all of this of course is that a large number of those in the Northern Counties (anround a third) are Ulster Soots - from a country equally historically dominate and persecuted by the British establishment
Divide and rule at its best
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 06:02 AM

By the way - the secret oa ll this lies in the chosen names
Loyalist = loyalty to Britain - a foreign power
Republican = loyalty to Ireland - the Mother country
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:18 AM

"And was this because of expected violence by the British/English? "
It was down to the fact that the British Empire created a sectarian state in Ireland which instigated aggressive sectarian marches to display the superiority of those they left in charge
It iolence surrounding Orange maches have never had anything to doi with th difference in religions - if they had, this violence would be preent all the year round rather than on one day of the year
Outside of politics, Catholics and Protestants get on quite well together - this is a historical fact - the war has always been about British control of Ireland - religion is an excuse
It was a common occurrence during the period when it was forbidden for Catholics to purchase land, that their Protestant neighbours did so on their behalf
Britain's oldest trick was to divide those they wished top control
As far as Liverpool is concerned - the large Irish population reflected what was happening back home - triumphalism and all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:40 AM

Poverty and job competition?
https://livrepository.liverpool.ac.uk/2010280/3/RobertsKei_April2015_2010280.pdf

Discrimination occurred in the US.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-york-times-finds-no-irish-need-apply-in-classified-ads-1.2345597

Another rather simplistic view. Canada and Discrimination.

https://schoolworkhelper.net/irish-famine-immigration-1840/

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:23 PM

I served my apprenticeship on the Liverpool docks - for almost the entire year the area was a community - come 'The Glorious Twelfth', shops were boarded up the streets became a no-go area - the following day, back to normal
And was this because of expected violence by the British/English? Or because of expected violence by some part of the Irish contingency of Liverpool?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:20 PM

I imagine a 'hard' Irish-British border as something like this

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 03:43 AM

"No one forgets where the hatchet is buried."
It was never really buried - annual triumphal displays of superiority and aggression have made sure of that
One of the great features of these displays has been the flying of The Union Jack - a reminder of who is still in charge up there
This was never Irish v Irish, nor really was it altogether religious - they were politically based and manipulated
I served my apprenticeship on the Liverpool docks - for almost the entire year the area was a community - come 'The Glorious Twelfth', shops were boarded up the streets became a no-go area - the following day, back to normal
I assume things have now greatly improved now, as they were beginning to in the North of Ireland
Now that is being threatened - politics again
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 01:37 AM

I think the current nature of the inheritance of the bitter times is the uncertain economic future we are entering thanks to the uncontrolled BREXIT we are heading for. Should the need come for a 'hard border', old demons are feared to arise and with the prospect of humans dressed in uniforms and border stops and inspections and waiting lines of tourists, commuters and goods, there will be a temptation for those with old grievances to once more set match to combustible or worse.


No one forgets where the hatchet is buried.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 01:47 PM

DETAILS HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM

Oh Dear! he is not very good at history is he? More once "upon a time"
rubbish. If everyone else had his distorted totally bigoted view od events the violence would be ongoing. Luckily only a very small minority of only one hold such divisive views.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM

THe "Peace Lines" in your link are thaose that have become necessary since Britain forcibly partitioned Ireland and created a sectarian state
They were put in place in 1969 when a Civil Rights march demanding equal rights with the two thirds majority which had been created by artificially dividing Ireland into two separate states

In essence, the warring factions were not Irish versus Irish but Irish Catholics fighting Britons
You might like to bear this fact in mind - originally the intention was to make the whole of Ulster a State - them someone did the math and realised that this would not create the majority Britain needed, so the knocked off three of the Ulster Counties - Ireland was deliberately divided into a sectarian dominated State
It was the dominant sectarian Loyalists who fired the first shots in The Troubles, just as it was the same people who threw te stones and turned peaceful protests into a murderous bloody war
The Irish have never been at war with The Irish - Britain has always been regarded as the oppressor
I suggest you read what you put up - the information is all there
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:14 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_lines

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:08 AM

Threesome? Jim seems to do it all by himself. :)