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BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
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Subject: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Raggytash Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM These subjects have been long discussed on this forum and once again their appearance in one or two threads is making it possible for some people to sidestep the issues discussed therein. So I've created a nice clear thread here for those of you who wish to discuss these matters further. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:04 AM Don't be silly again Raggy - Ireland is as much a part of Brexit as is immigration I've said what I have to say Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Iains Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:04 AM No point is discussing serious matters with the resident blockhead! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Raggytash Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:11 AM Agreed Jim, but by taking the bait you are allowing people the opportunity NOT to discuss Brexit. I would suggest a good number of books written on the subject of the famine. Kathleen Villiers Tuthill's book "Patient Endurance: The Great Famine in Connemara" is a good place to start. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:13 AM "Agreed Jim, but by taking the bait you are allowing people the opportunity NOT to discuss Brexit." Can't have it both ways Rag - Brexit and Ireland atre intermingled or they are not For those of us living in Ireland it is the main issue Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Raggytash Date: 03 Mar 19 - 01:37 PM You forget Jim that I too am living in Ireland! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: DMcG Date: 03 Mar 19 - 02:02 PM I think there is a value in concentrating on the future of Ireland, over on the Brexit thread. Obviously the past feeds into it, but I agree with Raggy that discussing Ireland's past can be a way of avoiding talking about its future. Separating the two is possible and, in my view, worthwhile. So my pennyworth is that this thread is a good way of stressing that both aspects are important, but they are not th2 sam2. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Mar 19 - 02:30 PM Personally, I have said all I want to say to the people concerned and was happy to leave it there I ted to agree with Mac,but was not prepared to allow a Little Englander to use the Brexit thread to take yet another pop an a log suffering ex colony - Over and out Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Raggytash Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:33 PM Which is precisely why I opened another thread Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:13 PM A healthy minority of historians regard the use of the term "famine" as a heinous insult. There were thousands starving in Ireland and being forced to emigrate while the capitalists were exporting tons of Irish butter, and more, to England. "Famine" implies an unfortunate, unavoidable act of God. The great hunger was absolutely none of those things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: mg Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:36 PM that is what my ancestors called it who lived (some of them) through it..potato famine to be exact and who am I to change it on them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Mar 19 - 10:27 AM "that is what my ancestors called " I was surprised when I first heard it called 'The Irish Holocaust' but found it to be quite common when we moved here The publicaton of Sir Charles Trevelyan's letter describing the Famine as 'God's punishment on the lazy Irish' tends to bear out that description and the closure of Peel's relief programme and the adoption of a policy which restricted the distribution of relief in order to protect type market prices is further evidence It is a fact that there was enough food in Ireland to feed the population four times over, it was never distributed but kept in locked warehouses under military guard - whether that was a deliberate attempt to starve the Irish off their land or 'to solve the Irish problem' is really immaterial - 1 million died o starvation and illnesses related to the conditions and a million were forced to emigrate One of the great mysteries (nor really) is the fact that for a century and a half there was only one major study of the famine, written by an Englishwoman, Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith - damning enough but extremely limited in scope. The 150th anniversary, when Ireland was still basking in the glow of 'The Celtic Tiger', led to a landslide of published works on the famine During one of these threads someone introduced me to the writings of Christine Kenneally - now the most respected Famine Historian Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Iains Date: 04 Mar 19 - 10:32 AM Hey nonny no! Here he goes again, rattlin roaring jimmie! I ted to agree with Mac,but was not prepared to allow a Little Englander to use the Brexit thread to take yet another pop an a log suffering ex colony - . Defintion time for our resident anglophobe. "Little Englander" was a phrase applied to a wing of the Liberal Party opposed to expansion of the British Empire in the 19th century, who wanted "England" to extend no farther than the borders of English territory, and in full cooperation with Scotland and Wales as part of the United Kingdom. In the late 18th and 19th centuries the term was used for those Englishmen who looked upon the colonies of the British Empire as economically burdensome and wished the granting of self-government as quickly as possible. This is the exact opposite in the meaning our geriatric racist bigot ascribes to it. How remarkably in character that is. Got it all totally ass about face as usual. He obviously treats a dictionary with the same contempt he shows for history books judging by his ignorant diatribes.
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Mar 19 - 11:13 AM Back to his old form again I see Ah well I suggest that, if we want to continue with this we steer clear of it Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Mar 19 - 01:43 PM Agreed. His days may be numbered, Jim. So let's all let him wallow on his own. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Mar 19 - 02:59 PM Anybody who thinks criticising British politicians is being "anglophobic" has to be a little....., what's the word.... strange, to say the least As MacColl would have written if he hadn't written, "We're a Nation of Animal Lovers... "We'e a nation of rotten Anglophobics" Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: ollaimh Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:05 AM it's odd how the british found war like people all over the world, where ever they invaded, and equally odd that famine followed almost every such invasion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:33 AM What is most disturbing is that many of the problems left behind by the Empire are still major causes of strife; Ireland was just about settling theirs when Brexit stirred it all up again India and Pakistan simmers away, and throughout the world the descendants of the 'safe pairs of hands' left behind by the fallen Empires continue their reigns of terror Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: KarenH Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM I am glad that somebody explained to Jim what a 'little Englander' is. As for stirring it up, Jim is doing a good job on that all by himself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Mar 19 - 09:02 AM "As for stirring it up, Jim is doing a good job on that all by himself." Just as you are doing a good job making up your own history and not responding to other's opinions Karen Your source of information has just had his knuckles rapped, I hope you will take note of that fact and not use the Irish as a 'battleground' Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Mar 19 - 09:10 AM This appears to ba a pretty fair SUMMING UP of what is happaning and what is likely to happen, thanks to Brexit Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Mar 19 - 09:57 AM Two definitions, byt the way - the historical one and the one in modern usage From The Collins dictionary Jim noun 1. (esp in the 19th century) a person opposed to the extension of the British Empire 2. British informal a person who perceives most foreign influences on Britain's culture and institutions as damaging or insidious |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: KarenH Date: 06 Mar 19 - 01:37 PM Talk to the hand, Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Mar 19 - 02:30 PM Nothing else worth addressing Is it really that difficult to admit you are wrong ? - rhetorical question, of course Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: KarenH Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:16 AM More bile from the usual quarter. Yawn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: KarenH Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM I note that one of the latest Irish terrorist sects is opposed to the EU. That was interesting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Iains Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:28 AM Karen that is because should a major" policing" action be required in the province in the future it would likely comprise units of this EU army that "will not exist"(We are told repeatedly on this forum) They would behave more like the gendarmerie in Paris or the Guardia Civil shipped into Catalonia. The outcome would be untidy in the extreme. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: KarenH Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:40 AM As for being 'wrong', what I have basically done is wish that there is no return to sectarian violence in Ireland, and argue in favour of measures calculated to reduce this risk. And I would do it again, famine or no famine. Because I don't like knee-cappings, punishment shootings, murder and so on. Sorry if I appear to be criticising Jim's heroes but there it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:43 AM "what I have basically done is wish that there is no return to sectarian violence in Ireland," No - what you have done is ignored the causes of the sectarian violence and blamed it on the Irish, as little Englanders do There wold be no sectarian violence if Britain hadn't deliberately created a sectarian state My reference to your being "wrong" was your graciousness in sneering at the full definition of "little Englander" I may as well "talk to your hand" - your knowledge and common sense doesn't appear to be particularly receptive Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Mar 19 - 06:26 AM Incidentally The British Government has repeatedly opposed making the unlawful killings by British troops a criminal offence and the DUP spokesman is now in extremely hot water for saying they weren't criminal acts The problem with discussing The Troubles is that it is treated as a one-sided event, ignoring the fact that the Loyalists introduced the gun into twentieth century Irish Politics, they pledged their lives to keeping the Northern Counties free of 'Papish Rule', they fired the first shots in the mid-twentieth century outbreak of open warfare and Churchmen like Paisley continued to stir up sectarian hatred long after the fighting was over. Throughout all this, The British Establishment supported one side and, as honest cop, John Stalker's report exposed, the British Security forces were up to their bloody elbows in the sectarian killings from day one All this information is freely available and accessible to be ignored by those who continue to wish to do so Go read a book Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: KarenH Date: 07 Mar 19 - 06:50 AM My favourite book; Jim Carroll's patronising bile. Selected highlights from the career of a bad-tempered internet poster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Mar 19 - 07:12 AM Still no response to facts Karen If you had read a book on Ireland I'm sure you would be quite capable of producing more than disparaging and insulting comments @Selected highlights' of anything are valueless unless representative of the whole This started with your swingeing dismissal of the Irish people by describing Irish problems as being down to a people who can't get on with one another - as far from the truth as you could possibly get Even the term 'sectarian' when applied to 'The Troubles' has nothing to do with personal religions beliefs rather than the use that was made of the differing religions to create and maintain an unequal society When you start to address that fact you will begin to touch on the problems of the Irish People, North and South of the Border Instead, you have resorted to the technique of your sole companion here by insulting and denigrating You have yet to respond to one thing I have put up MORE TO IGNORE MORE STILL YET MORE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Iains Date: 07 Mar 19 - 07:40 AM Why drag me into your venomous postings? Trying to correct your perverted interpretation of history is a wasted effort. As can be demonstrated by your view of Tonypandy and the illustrious Maggie being accused of destroying the coal mining industry. No matter how many times you are pointed to factual records you deny their veracity. You are incapable of creating a measured post. Even on the folk threads you create dissent because someone has the temerity to disagree with you. You dare talk of people insulting and denigrating? Peruse your own posting history. If it were mine I would be deeply ashamed, whereas you apparently revel in it. What sort of person does that make you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Raggytash Date: 07 Mar 19 - 07:54 AM Karen, I don't know your particular circumstance but the way Irish history is taught in England in my experience is somewhat limited if not to say biased or even bigoted. There are numerous well written and informative books about. In terms of the troubles in North Ireland I would suggest as a starter: "Those are real bullets, Aren't they?" by Peter Pringle and Phillip Jacobson. I think one of the problems demonstrated on Mudcat time after time is the pre-ordained "thinking" by some factions which is based on little if any true information. Hope you read the book. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM "Why drag me into your venomous postings? " Perhaps because you are an anti-Irish racist - isn't that enough ? As afr as you are concerned - the rest is silence British Northern Ireland Secretary has now withdrawn her remarks about the legality of shooting down Irish citizens - next week sees a decision of whether the 60 troops and 2 IRA member are to face prosecution for their crimes Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Iains Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:33 AM Perhaps because you are an anti-Irish racist - isn't that enough ? More delusions from a very sick mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:11 AM Anti Irish racism is just that "Boggtrotter" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Iains Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:50 AM I have every reason to label you as I do little jimmie. Only in your crabbed mind could it be taken as a description ascribed to an entire country. But then you attach derogatory labels to all who disagree with you. Your voluminous posts provide plentiful confirmation, as many others will agree. Below is a prime example of your disgusting posts. He's an extremist right-wing criminal blogger who has apparently managed to plant one of his employees on this forum (no prizes...) Probably a hermaphrodite - certainly into dressing-up and 'let's-pretend' games - someone you guard your children against Jim Who are you accusing of being a kiddy fiddler your malicious evil person? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:00 AM That was directed at your criminal fetishist friend Guido and you ****** know it The rest is just personal insults, which you have been warned about Just go away - neither you or Karen have any intention of taking part in this Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Iains Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:20 AM That was directed at your criminal fetishist friend Guido and you ****** know it Do you think swearing gives your response more street cred? The way your post is constructed it is quite clear that the plant on this website can only refer to me. The following sentence is not qualified therefore it refers to the last entity mentioned. i.e. me. Now lets be having an apology pronto! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:31 AM Let's be having YOU removed permanently from this forum pronto, and let's have this Godforsaken thread closed pronto. Karen, Jim, you are both people with heart. PLEASE don't post to this thread any more.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM " Karen, Jim, you are both people with heart. PLEASE don't post to this thread any more...." Sorry Steve This subject is important to me - I have no intention of letting Ireland become a no go area (like Israel or MacColl) because of a couple of trolls I have no intention of continuing with this line of discussion, but the subject remains open as far as I'm concerned Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Mar 19 - 01:01 PM OK Jim, but I think it needs a restart, maybe after a pause...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Mar 19 - 02:53 PM Got a night of crap on tele so, as long as I avoid the news I should be safe Sriously Steve Im not intending to respond to these people but as Ireland comes up and the Brexit Circus looks as it will I feel it would be stupid to ignore it Britain is quite likely to lose a Northern Ireland Secretary i n the next few days Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:21 PM Good on yer, Jim. And you, Karen. I luvs yer both, babes! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:24 PM Same time, same place tonight Steve !!! Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:49 PM I'll be the one wearing the Ugg boots and pink carnation, Jim... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: KarenH Date: 08 Mar 19 - 01:18 AM Talk to the hand, Jim. One day you will learn the difference between insult and discussion. Or, then again, perhaps not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: KarenH Date: 08 Mar 19 - 01:35 AM And Raggytash, thanks for the insulting implication that my position is based on ignorance of history, coupled with a dubious comment that Irish history is taught in a 'bigoted' way in English schools. It is not. It is possible to be opposed, as I am, to car bombings, knee-capping, protection rackets, tarring and feathering, and sectarian violence, however defined, while having a good understanding of history, including the potato famine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine From: KarenH Date: 08 Mar 19 - 01:51 AM Some Irish history, which makes exactly the sort of point I would make about simplistic accounts of it. A good example of the way the topic is 'taught' in England, too? http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/middle_ages/ireland_invasion_01.shtml |